Clark R. Bavin, National Fish & Wildlife Forensics Lab, Ashland, OR

[DLJeffs]

China with their population and iron-fisted government control is certainly a big factor. But within individual countries, it usually comes down to a very small set of corrupt officials and a population who has no clue what is happening until it's too late. I've seen it first hand in Papua New Guinea - which thankfully is still sort of watched over by Australia, unofficially. Go right next door to Irian Jaya and you wont' see a tree standing. From the air, the border is a clear distinct line. Indonesia controls Irian Jaya and they clear cut the entire country to make room for palm oil plantations. Indonesia, Thailand, many African countries, some in South America - it's a corrupt few that are lining their pockets before they get caught with total disregard for the long term implications. When I was working, we could restrict access - so no hunting, poaching, illegal logging, etc and our contracted development areas became little sanctuary oasis. While all around the perimeter the forest disappeared, the animals, birds and fish disappeared. And it was because as Mike said, enforcement was in place.

But here in the US we're not immune to greed either. There was a proposed plan to build an aerial tramway, a large resort hotel and golf course into one of the most remote stretches of the Grand Canyon. It would have ruined the whole experience had it been approved. Fortunately, the local indian tribes formed a resistance movement and the proposal was not approved (although it was give and take there for awhile). And who knows when the next rich developer will bring it back and if they're lucky enough to have the right mix of politicians, it could get approved. There already are many helicopter operations and bused in tourist into and through the canyon that completely ruin it for those who want to experience the canyon as it was meant to be. There are places that just don't need to be developed, period.

 

[Mike Hill]

Ok, I'm triggered, and this is hometown news, and I had some possible construction dealings with Gibson at the time because of the Big Nashville Flood. On Gibson, as part of the agreement, they did not get the wood back. However, I have heard that they did. Anyways, and don't get me wrong, the guy in the boss seat at Gibson, was not my favorite guy. But let's just say he walked on a different side of the road from the Obama Crew and unions. It was also suspiciously occurring during the time when Gibson was hit by the BIG Nashville Flood - so rumors abounded that they were trying to put Gibson out of business. We are a "Right to Work" state, and the Feds seemed to be targeting some businesses around here because of that (i.e. Saturn and others).

Gibson apparently did not do anything different than any number of other companies did. It was due to 2 technicalities - maybe 3. The employee who had gone on the trip to Madagascar was supposedly told by someone about the laws but was also told by their exporter that the wood had been impounded and could not be shipped. If that wood was impounded in Madagascar, how would it be the wood that they confiscated? The wood was generally fingerboard blanks of ebony. The Lacey Act basically says that if it is against the laws of other nations, you cannot import protected materials into the U.S. if they are UNFINISHED. However, it was originally only about protecting game birds in 1900, and it was amended in 2008 (just in time for this debacle) to include plant material. This all gets sorta weird in a few places. One place is that the government claimed, that since one person was "told" that something was illegal, it was deemed that then the company knew. That is not the way case law works, or at least not at the time. Just because I am told by someone that some regulation made something illegal does not indicate notice to the company.

This wood was supposedly cut fingerboards. Cut fingerboards were previously considered completed products - they were completed parts - or so I was told The gov't was now supposedly arguing that since they had not been installed on a guitar, they were incomplete and unfinished. That is sorta like saying a starter motor is not a complete/finished product until it is installed into a car.

They were raided more than once by armed agents; the agents shut production down in not only Nashville but also in Memphis, the agents ordered employees home, stopped shipping, and confiscated lots of wood, some of which was not in dispute (that wood was returned). Gibson had previously stopped importing from Madagascar and was obtaining ebony from other sources, some of which was India. The company furnished documents that showed that the wood was imported legally and not from Madagascar. It was claimed by the gov't that it was indeed Madagascar ebony - how, I don't know as they did not have a chain of custody that said it was illegal. Ebony yes, but Madagascar ebony and when harvested and exported - uncertain. So what the gov't said was that it was not enough to have documentation from your sources that it is not illegal, but YOU had to be certain of that. Gibson was responsible for knowing an indisputable chain of custody from plant to finished product. It was now not enough to rely on legal documents from the supplier and their supplier, and their supplier, etc.... Basically, you are guilty until you can prove to the government that you are innocent.

For a while there, construction firms were to be held responsible for a chain of custody/employees, that ensured that no illegal immigrants were employed by any of our subcontractors or suppliers and their suppliers. It was pretty near impossible, especially since they also passed regulations that we could not ask or ask for proof that any possible employee is legally here or not. It might still be there, but they are not enforcing it.

And you better not be sending finished products, even pre 2008 products overseas without a indisputable confirmation of the legality of all parts and pieces of the product. Many, many fine stringed instruments were made of ebony and brazillian rosewood in years past, but it's gotten so mangled that Gruhn Guitars (located in Nashville and one of the world's largest dealers in vintage stringed instruments) stopped shipping overseas (previously about 40% of his business).

Of course, I'm sure China obeys ALL these laws to the letter!

 

[Arn213]

Both great post fellas. The rules and regulations are constantly changing- it is as challenging to try to keep up like the NYC Building Codes.

 

[Arn213]

You can put a film finish on a board and it will be considered finished- not making this up and though this is all subject to interpretation and how it is described. It is still 50/50 when it goes up in the air and it goes to customs. Like I said you can have a rookie newbie customs officer and your wood or guitars or whatever instrument can be taken. They will find other ways with a fine tooth comb to make life hard for you if they choose to.

 

[Mike1950]

99% of the blame lies with China. Demand from the rest of the world is miniscule. We’re not the ones bribing local officials.

I think yesterday I read USA uses 19% of milled wood in world...

 

[Mike1950]

Ok, I'm triggered, and this is hometown news, and I had some possible construction dealings with Gibson at the time because of the Big Nashville Flood. On Gibson, as part of the agreement, they did not get the wood back. However, I have heard that they did. Anyways, and don't get me wrong, the guy in the boss seat at Gibson, was not my favorite guy. But let's just say he walked on a different side of the road from the Obama Crew and unions. It was also suspiciously occurring during the time when Gibson was hit by the BIG Nashville Flood - so rumors abounded that they were trying to put Gibson out of business. We are a "Right to Work" state, and the Feds seemed to be targeting some businesses around here because of that (i.e. Saturn and others).

Gibson apparently did not do anything different than any number of other companies did. It was due to 2 technicalities - maybe 3. The employee who had gone on the trip to Madagascar was supposedly told by someone about the laws but was also told by their exporter that the wood had been impounded and could not be shipped. If that wood was impounded in Madagascar, how would it be the wood that they confiscated? The wood was generally fingerboard blanks of ebony. The Lacey Act basically says that if it is against the laws of other nations, you cannot import protected materials into the U.S. if they are UNFINISHED. However, it was originally only about protecting game birds in 1900, and it was amended in 2008 (just in time for this debacle) to include plant material. This all gets sorta weird in a few places. One place is that the government claimed, that since one person was "told" that something was illegal, it was deemed that then the company knew. That is not the way case law works, or at least not at the time. Just because I am told by someone that some regulation made something illegal does not indicate notice to the company.

This wood was supposedly cut fingerboards. Cut fingerboards were previously considered completed products - they were completed parts - or so I was told The gov't was now supposedly arguing that since they had not been installed on a guitar, they were incomplete and unfinished. That is sorta like saying a starter motor is not a complete/finished product until it is installed into a car.

They were raided more than once by armed agents; the agents shut production down in not only Nashville but also in Memphis, the agents ordered employees home, stopped shipping, and confiscated lots of wood, some of which was not in dispute (that wood was returned). Gibson had previously stopped importing from Madagascar and was obtaining ebony from other sources, some of which was India. The company furnished documents that showed that the wood was imported legally and not from Madagascar. It was claimed by the gov't that it was indeed Madagascar ebony - how, I don't know as they did not have a chain of custody that said it was illegal. Ebony yes, but Madagascar ebony and when harvested and exported - uncertain. So what the gov't said was that it was not enough to have documentation from your sources that it is not illegal, but YOU had to be certain of that. Gibson was responsible for knowing an indisputable chain of custody from plant to finished product. It was now not enough to rely on legal documents from the supplier and their supplier, and their supplier, etc.... Basically, you are guilty until you can prove to the government that you are innocent.

For a while there, construction firms were to be held responsible for a chain of custody/employees, that ensured that no illegal immigrants were employed by any of our subcontractors or suppliers and their suppliers. It was pretty near impossible, especially since they also passed regulations that we could not ask or ask for proof that any possible employee is legally here or not. It might still be there, but they are not enforcing it.

And you better not be sending finished products, even pre 2008 products overseas without a indisputable confirmation of the legality of all parts and pieces of the product. Many, many fine stringed instruments were made of ebony and brazillian rosewood in years past, but it's gotten so mangled that Gruhn Guitars (located in Nashville and one of the world's largest dealers in vintage stringed instruments) stopped shipping overseas (previously about 40% of his business).

Of course, I'm sure China obeys ALL these laws to the letter!

This is more like the story I got. I think Gibson got bent over for for their politics. Surprise suprise.

 

[Arn213]

The old head of Gibson is gone and someone else is manning that position. Colorful fella.

 

[Mike Hill]

What I was told by those who should know. The feds raided Gibson for using an inappropriate tariff code on wood from India, which is a violation of The Lacey Act. At issue is not whether the wood in question was endangered, but whether the wood was the correct level of thickness and finish before being exported from India. Apparently, some of these countries want to ensure that raw wood is not exported without some labor content from their workers. $$$ over endangeredness!

 

[Mike Hill]

"But here in the US we're not immune to greed either. There was a proposed plan to build an aerial tramway, a large resort hotel and golf course into one of the most remote stretches of the Grand Canyon. It would have ruined the whole experience had it been approved."

Sorta like stretches of the Madison R. last time I floated. There was a couple of stretches that looked like a subdivision - and these house weren't ranch houses! All built since the previous time I floated it. Don't get me wrong, the vast majority of the river, all you are gonna see is some sagebrush and the occasional cattle and pronghorn. But I fixated on those houses.

Or like my "home" river. 3 or 4 years before covid, somebody had the grand idea of starting a canoe/kayak/float business on the river. The first year of two, it wasn't too bad. If you came early to fish on the weekend or avoided the weekends all together, it was good. Then it was just the summer that was bad, now it is anytime that is not cold. I guess if you like drunk young folks yelling and hollering, literally bumping their "boats" into you, flotillas after flotillas of drunk young folks floating in the fishing lane you are fishing, then I guess you can have a good time. But you also have to ignore all the trash they leave, plus you have to ignore all the broken bottles and such that is now on the bottom. Messed up (cut) a set of wading boots ($200+ pair of Korkers with boa and interchangeable soles that I bought with employee discount) on the glass. The real slap on the face is that, TWRA and the TVA finally had finally started managing the generating periods for the benefit of the fishery, TU has over the decades made river improvements, our fishing license dollars are supposed to go to developing and maintaining fisheries, etc... but none of the monies derived from the float business goes to anything to do with the river. And now all that has made the river nearly useless to the flyfishing community. Well, that and the poaching and netting perpetrated by our new arrivals from other countries and sadly - states.

 

[burlyfigured]

OH, you must not have worked in a sawmill. You do not carry 90 # chunks of wood around. I can still pick 90 lbs, but the job was moving lumber as fast and as easy as you could. On the green chain you moved 100 lbs or more, you first grabbed and started moving then control threw on to pile.
I am talking about sneaking into park- firing up a chainsaw, cutting into manageable and packing out of the woods. I used to buy for almost 10 years from a mill close to park. plenty of stories and every once in a while they made the news. Most of the $$ numbers in news are highly inflated, just like anything else lies get more viewership than the truth. Same with this.
Too add- I was 24- lean now almost exactly 50 years later, I aint as lean and I absolutely not going to try to pack 90# billets out of the woods...

It was all green wood, plenty of ponderosa and white fir. Engelmann was a dream because it felt like a pillow compared to the others. No green chain here just lots of heavy stacking.

 

[Mike1950]

It was all green wood, plenty of ponderosa and white fir. Engelmann was a dream because it felt like a pillow compared to the others. No green chain here just lots of heavy stacking.

If they are dry all 3 are light weight.
Ponderosa pine was a dominant wood at this mill. Huge ones. The 16' 1x12 and 14' would get stacked 2 deep. Guess 200 lbs a stack. At time that is almost all that came down the chain. First time, a huge Indian offered to do it for me. Him 210 me 155, I said I have to do it sometime, might as well be now. 6'3 range white guy offered same. Nah I will try it. About 20 degrees, in 15 minutes I was down to sweaty tee shirt. By break, 2 hours into it, everybody decided I could do it. All was technique. Never had 2 hrs go by quicker.
Might have been the physically hardest job I ever did. But there was something about it that was uniquely satisfying.
But it also might have been my boss, Bob. He would come out and tell me once every 2 weeks or so and say, " Mike if that pile of lumber is there on Friday, it goes in chipper." Me "ok boss"
It was a very nice perk.

 

[Mike1950]

Ok, I'm triggered, and this is hometown news, and I had some possible construction dealings with Gibson at the time because of the Big Nashville Flood. On Gibson, as part of the agreement, they did not get the wood back. However, I have heard that they did. Anyways, and don't get me wrong, the guy in the boss seat at Gibson, was not my favorite guy. But let's just say he walked on a different side of the road from the Obama Crew and unions. It was also suspiciously occurring during the time when Gibson was hit by the BIG Nashville Flood - so rumors abounded that they were trying to put Gibson out of business. We are a "Right to Work" state, and the Feds seemed to be targeting some businesses around here because of that (i.e. Saturn and others).

Gibson apparently did not do anything different than any number of other companies did. It was due to 2 technicalities - maybe 3. The employee who had gone on the trip to Madagascar was supposedly told by someone about the laws but was also told by their exporter that the wood had been impounded and could not be shipped. If that wood was impounded in Madagascar, how would it be the wood that they confiscated? The wood was generally fingerboard blanks of ebony. The Lacey Act basically says that if it is against the laws of other nations, you cannot import protected materials into the U.S. if they are UNFINISHED. However, it was originally only about protecting game birds in 1900, and it was amended in 2008 (just in time for this debacle) to include plant material. This all gets sorta weird in a few places. One place is that the government claimed, that since one person was "told" that something was illegal, it was deemed that then the company knew. That is not the way case law works, or at least not at the time. Just because I am told by someone that some regulation made something illegal does not indicate notice to the company.

This wood was supposedly cut fingerboards. Cut fingerboards were previously considered completed products - they were completed parts - or so I was told The gov't was now supposedly arguing that since they had not been installed on a guitar, they were incomplete and unfinished. That is sorta like saying a starter motor is not a complete/finished product until it is installed into a car.

They were raided more than once by armed agents; the agents shut production down in not only Nashville but also in Memphis, the agents ordered employees home, stopped shipping, and confiscated lots of wood, some of which was not in dispute (that wood was returned). Gibson had previously stopped importing from Madagascar and was obtaining ebony from other sources, some of which was India. The company furnished documents that showed that the wood was imported legally and not from Madagascar. It was claimed by the gov't that it was indeed Madagascar ebony - how, I don't know as they did not have a chain of custody that said it was illegal. Ebony yes, but Madagascar ebony and when harvested and exported - uncertain. So what the gov't said was that it was not enough to have documentation from your sources that it is not illegal, but YOU had to be certain of that. Gibson was responsible for knowing an indisputable chain of custody from plant to finished product. It was now not enough to rely on legal documents from the supplier and their supplier, and their supplier, etc.... Basically, you are guilty until you can prove to the government that you are innocent.

For a while there, construction firms were to be held responsible for a chain of custody/employees, that ensured that no illegal immigrants were employed by any of our subcontractors or suppliers and their suppliers. It was pretty near impossible, especially since they also passed regulations that we could not ask or ask for proof that any possible employee is legally here or not. It might still be there, but they are not enforcing it.

And you better not be sending finished products, even pre 2008 products overseas without a indisputable confirmation of the legality of all parts and pieces of the product. Many, many fine stringed instruments were made of ebony and brazillian rosewood in years past, but it's gotten so mangled that Gruhn Guitars (located in Nashville and one of the world's largest dealers in vintage stringed instruments) stopped shipping overseas (previously about 40% of his business).

Of course, I'm sure China obeys ALL these laws to the letter!

"For a while there, construction firms were to be held responsible for a chain of custody/employees, that ensured that no illegal immigrants were employed by any of our subcontractors or suppliers and their suppliers. It was pretty near impossible, especially since they also passed regulations that we could not ask or ask for proof that any possible employee is legally here or not. It might still be there, but they are not enforcing it."
little Mikey- yall are raising my blood pressure. I think the government called it an I-9. Needed one for every employee- with the threat of huge fines and maybe jail time. I had one for every employee. Now some of my competition, Minority owned did none of this. Now I grew up with the head of Labor and Industries here. I asked him one day. He said Mike, off the record we do not check on them. Grrrr level playing is just an imaginary concept....

 

[DLJeffs]

Guess it's like a lot of other areas for which we make laws. Those laws serve to keep the honest people honest. As for the rest, meh. Always a question I ask people who want to institute a new law - how and who's going to enforce it and how are they going to pay for it. Most new laws don't have a plan for those things and many voters can't be bothered to find out until it's too late.

 

[Mike1950]

Guess it's like a lot of other areas for which we make laws. Those laws serve to keep the honest people honest. As for the rest, meh. Always a question I ask people who want to institute a new law - how and who's going to enforce it and how are they going to pay for it. Most new laws don't have a plan for those things and many voters can't be bothered to find out until it's too late.

I agree but, Washington enforced laws to improve their bottom line.
Example- bought a bunch of brand new scaffold early 2007. Some wet straight to a house on steep lake property. Retaining wall at both sides of house front meant you had to lower by hand 6'. Employee was told how to do it but he was not happy that day so started throwing frames off the wall down on to concrete. Foreman told him not to again. He started throwing them again. One bounced and took out a spendy sliding door. We have a conversation the next day. It did not go well. He got fired. Fast forward, he whines to state. Felt he should have gotten laid off. Couple phone conversations with state. It gone down to, did I have a written manual stating not to throw scaffold off retaining wall. No I did not. I also did not have anything in manual about destroying customers property. So in the end he was laid off. You almost cannot fire anyone in this state. I really learned what catch 22 was as an employer. You just learned to grin and bear it...