Cuban Mahogany, Bubinga, etc
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Knowing the chain of custody is still important and good to know. Small amounts, often not an issue, but bigger amounts can cause attention. There is a good amount of Florida mahogany grown in Florida, sold as Cuban because it brings more money under that name. Good luck.
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Thanks for those tips Mark.
Question- I was told the boards we have were Cuban Mahogany (22” wide x 2” slabs) which came from a tree harvested in Florida a number of years ago.
So, assuming it’s the same genus/species as genuine Cuban Mahogany, can it be sold as such? Or, is that misleading a potential buyer? (Or does it really matter?)
Thanks for any insight.
Plenty of bubinga in country. In 2018 I was at Bolhke warehouse north of Cincinnati. So big the stacks were scary. 20' tall stacks of Bubinga. And I mean multiple stacks.
I disagree on needing to know how and when it got here. I have a 52x14" x4" plus chunk of coco. I have had for 4 years. I bought from someone who had moved from Maine to Colorado 20 yrs ago. He bought it dry from someone who had it for 15 yrs.
Mun , phillipine ebony burl, black and white, sindoa burl, that sat in Hawaii for 11 years in warehouse. I had 12 lv burl slabs. Dry and long time stored. If legally purchased in states there is no legal reason you have to have know where it has been. Hell if it is not legal no one is going to tell you. IMO chain of custody is just a feel good measure. CITES wood is being sold all over planet with absolutely no paperwork.
Perfect example green coco burl. Exported somehow from Mexico and now offered for sale in Vietnam for export to states. Only paperwork is box it is in.. my opinion, already known, cites is worthless.. treats symptom but no solution. Standard government worthless regs.. sure is pretty..
Yes, it does matter knowing what swietenia species that you have. If you are dealing with luthiers they would want to know and they would want to know the difference as far as working properties and sonic properties. Luthier’s who build electrics would shy away from Cuban mahogany because it is on the heavy end for bodies and neck material. Cuban mahogany has also this in between sonic tone that differentiate it from genuine mahogany (woody and mid range)- it has a sonic footprint between hog and rosewood. The wise one’s will ask you the physical weight and weight per board foot. That is one important aspect.
Secondly, to the furniture builders and restorer’s. I will give you an example and this has been documented in history books- the shielded back chairs that are period correct from Hepplewhite, Sheraton, Chippendale used Cuban mahogany for those style chairs because of the density and structural strength. Genuine Honduran mahogany would not hold up if that was used for the ornate and delicate “tracery” on the shielded back pattern and design. I do have my own argument on this though and this is based on my experience- just like maple species, there is low, mid and high density. Silver maple is low density. Red maple to Western bigleaf medium density and hard rock/sugar maple is high density. That is a density range from 2.7 to a hair under 4 pounds per board foot. Honduran mahogany has the same spectrum density range- meaning you can have lower density hog at 2.5 and have 5 pounds per board foot Honduran hog. Those 4-5 pounds per board foot that gets really dark in color can get mistaken for Cuban mahogany. My argument is that any swietenia species can be used as long as it has a higher density range and pattern grade for shielded backs.
Can I tell the difference in photo’s between the 2 species- NO. End grain, well it is difficult and Paul @phinds can dive into that for you as well as Marc @Mr. Peet . The only way outside of the basic identification is that Cuban mahogany has a silky hand- feels oily. That doesn’t hold true for genuine mahogany. The next is aroma- Honduran mahogany will always have this trail light scent like spicy Spanish cedar. Cuban mahogany does not.
I posted a neck blank of real Cuban mahogany grown in the Caribbean and not in FL.
That is kind of my point, Florida grown, should you call it Cuban? That is your call. Yes, the name Cuban should be only used for Swietenia mahagoni. Personally, calling it Cuban when grown in the USA, I'd find that misleading, and if doing so to score higher prices, likewise. Kind of comes down to your moral choice.
I've seen it sold as Florida grown Cuban mahogany. I think that is a really straight forward way to list a wood. But again, your choice.
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Arn - thanks for your insight. The only confusing part (a bit) is that what I'm reading (including in the Wood database info) is that Cuban Mahogany was originally termed "genuine Mahogany" until it was almost cut to extinction at which time Honduran Mahogany seems to have taken the title of Genuine Mahogany. Also - I've read where Cuban Mahogany is native to both Florida (Keys) and Cuba.
In any case, when the time comes, I will list the wood we have as Florida grown Cuban Mahogany.
The term Genuine was used for all of the Swietenia genus, as a way to separate from Khaya, Shorea and many others that came into the trade at the time. Implying, Swietenia was the first wood heavily used as 'mahogany'.
@Mr. Peet covered your second line in his post, #10. There is nothing confusing about it and “Swietenia” as the genus is a start point to know what you have or buying is genuine mahogany. The species is what separates the swietenia’s- Cuban mahogany would be listed as “swietenia mahogani”, Honduran mahogany would be listed as “swietenia macrophylla”. Mexican mahogany would be listed as “swietenia humilis”. Genuine mahogany nowadays comes from different parts of central and predominantly in South America- commercial Honduran mahogany that is. Some vendors will sell genuine mahogany under “South American” mahogany.
If you want to dive at the deeper end of this, you have to go back to Belize when it was British Honduras. The flag will tell you all that their main resource was mahogany during the boom in the 18th-19th century when British Honduras was a British colony and mahogany was abundant and main staple for trade. There are books and books about it and a lot of serious guitar builders and beauty of the burst aficionados who are serious about the wood in their guitars have laid serious interest in the “old growth” term in genuine mahogany.
Genuine mahogany- commercial grade Honduran mahogany is in the CITES appendix III. There are countries that have farms of mahogany where these commerically comes from- Fiji is one of the biggest. Palau is one of the countries that grows Cuban mahogany.
Here is the kicker and both Honduran mahogany and Cuban mahogany does grow in 2 US States- Florida and Hawaii. Hawaii’s soil, environment and elevation permits most species to grow in the different islands. African Blackwood can be found in the big Island in the drier region.
In any case, you have to do due diligence to make positively sure that what you are offering is either Cuban mahogany or Honduran mahogany for possible suitors. Not all mahogany that grows in FL is Cuban per my statement above and I can site this for you.
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I am going to post some photo’s of my old hog’s of my old stock that were all 16/4 patterned grade- mostly from Belize. You can read up on things on line and articles that sites the information from all over. My personal view, that there are subjective. You have had to be physically present and have processed and work on this species to know what they are all about. So I don’t buy into the field work and you have to have some kind of woodworking background for me to buy into it. Otherwise is just a bunch of gibberish words sited and lifted from one write up to the next and with all the generalization built into it. You have to tell me more than that like it’s working properties, olfactory, etc., etc..
I always hear the word “old growth” and hand in hand it goes that is light weight. It is completely false. I know of a well known woodworker when I lived down south (Charleston, SC) that has massive conference table 16/4 to 20/4 conference slabs. He does a lot of conservatory work for interiors and builds furniture. The ports in Charleston was an ideal place for the mahogany to come to. We agree on one thing that old growth mahogany (genuine) is dense and heavy- which is what furniture makers prefer because of tensile strength and be able to hold up with fragile carving in lattice work. It also works like “butter”. I will include the growth ring data photo’s which I have collected. The growth ring spacing on true old, slow growth mahogany have ring spacing from 1/8” to 1/16”. It also has homogenous face grain on pattern grade material.
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Cuban mahogany is simply one of several common names for Swietenia mahogani, no matter where is grew. Likewise, Honduran mahogany refers to Swietenia macrophylla, most of which currently comes from Brazil and in my opinion is of low quality. It is helpful if the seller would reveal the country of origin. I've not been impressed with Florida grown Cuban mahogany lumber, most of it is probably from fast growing yard trees planted in the past 100 years.
Ooh (whisper mode on)……..you hear foot prints Warden @Eric Rorabaugh? It sounds like a “bear claw” & it’s gnawing at the maple……..no it’s not curly hog…….listen closely.…….you hear that……..it is pronounced “bare klaa”
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