Kiln build ,buy, what to do?

[David Van Asperen]

Here is the deal.
I plan to retire in April, if all the stars align we will be moving to an even smaller town
Will have plenty to do to remodel a church to be our home, and another building for my shop. Hope this building can hold not only my shop but the mill E Z Boardwalk 40 .
Now what I need advice on is a kiln,
All I really know is I need to be able to dry wood and do it without spending much money.
I most likely will not be milling all that much at first but I want it to be expandable.
I may be able to have the kiln inside but outside solar is definitely in my thought process.
300 to 500 board feet per load to begin with .
What do you use ? At what dollar investment ( if you care to share that info) pros, cons any and all input is valued and appreciated.
I am in the thinking,planning stage with lots of thoughts not much nailed down as still working on the building opinions but trying to get some real user info from a trusted source. That is where you come.
Thanks in advance
They now call me "Dont Know Dave"

 

[woodtickgreg]

For personal use of the lumber or for commercial sales?

 

[Mike1950]

Here is the deal.
I plan to retire in April, if all the stars align we will be moving to an even smaller town
Will have plenty to do to remodel a church to be our home, and another building for my shop. Hope this building can hold not only my shop but the mill E Z Boardwalk 40 .
Now what I need advice on is a kiln,

First- Congrats on Retirement..... 2. you live at same latitude as I do- How good do you think a solar kiln will work right now..... ? it is 21 here- I bet our greenhouse got one degree higher that outside today- In other words- If kathie would let me put wood in there to dry It would be almost as frozen as outside. But still Damned frozen... In the summer- I bet I could get it to 140 in there if we closed it off. Neither is an effective way to dry wood. Now my kiln. It is a 5'x 12' x6' wood- insulated box. it should have been taller but I built out of what I had and it was an experiment to see how it would work. I built it in a crappy place- and with trailer and tractor moved it to where it is now on a slab. Crappy box fan- walmart 50 quart dehumidifier and a couple halegon lights. when it was 15 a couple weeks ago the dehumidifier kept it at 90- perfect drying temp. The lights are only to heat up and and bug kill. I only use from sept/oct- april. Outside here and In SD is already a kiln in May-Sept . It is stupid simple and works...... If you want pictures- or more info no problem. I want to warn you though. I built out of used scaffold planks- when I retired I had about 2500 of them.....

 

[Sprung]

I don't have any knowledge on building a larger kiln, but do want to say congrats on retirement, Dave!

What little I do know about setting up a kiln of that size/nature would be to do along the lines of what Mike has set up and is what I would probably do if I was looking to build a kiln of that scale.

 

[David Van Asperen]

@woodtickgreg @Mike1950
Greg,I will attempt to sell some at some point I hope to mill more than I can use.
Mike , I like crappy as long as it works well and does not cost too much
It sounds similar only largest than I once made , will do some more shopping on the net but $$$$$$is going to be tight enough as is with out spending major on this project. I do know that I need to be able to get the temp up to kill bugs after my bug problem this years mess I will definatel reach out for more info when I get stuff nail down some more
@Sprung ,thank you and thanks for the heads up

 

[David Van Asperen]

Did some internet searches ,and some $$$$ searches ( found 11cents in the washer ) so it looks like a build . I have a couple of dehumidifies , can afford some insulation and most likely have the othe materials on hand to build a decent sized kiln. Still messing with the size and will have to see what I end up with for a shop . Will post shop and kiln pictures when it happens
Dave

 

[Schroedc]

Did some internet searches ,and some $$$$ searches ( found 11cents in the washer ) so it looks like a build . I have a couple of dehumidifies , can afford some insulation and most likely have the othe materials on hand to build a decent sized kiln. Still messing with the size and will have to see what I end up with for a shop . Will post shop and kiln pictures when it happens
Dave

If you have space, might it be worth it to buy a 20 foot shipping container and build it into a kiln?

 

[Graybeard]

Irish wood turner Glen Lucas uses a shipping container as a kiln. He shows it in his DVD. I just googled it and there is a lot of information on line. Good luck and happy retirement. It's all it's cracked up to be!!!

 

[David Van Asperen]

@Schroedc
@Graybeard
Colin, I am looking into that very idea as well especially if it needs to be outside.
Dave, I have looked online at some options do not think I saw that video yet but will definitely check it out.
Thanks again to all for your time and insight . it really is appreciated.
Happy New Year, hope it is fantastic for .
Dave

 

[David Van Asperen]

Yeah , those commercial ones are way out of my ballpark . I do not think I could cut and sell enough to make the purchase price

 

[Mr. Peet]

Dave,

Many options. I've seen lots happy with the Northern Hydraulics white enclosed carports. Black plastic or tarp the ground, stack the lumber and set the carport up around it. Set your dehumidifier at one end and your fan(s) at the other. If your temps are to low, black plastic / tarp or even blue or brown tarp over the white shell. If humidity drops to quick, having a humidifier may be needed to follow your kiln schedule. Easy to move and small enough to manipulate. Not good in high wind areas or in snowload, so for sure seasonal. Other big plus, typically not taxable.

Other wise extending a southern exposed roofline to the ground works well. Translucent roof sheeting, for the sun to cast into a black painted box. Some guys have black landscape netting to cover the wood from direct sun during certain times of the year. Being a building extension, have access to the building and can heat if needed. Still will need your fans and dehumidifier and humidifier. Sometimes you can just draft dry but you will want those electronic moisture aids as well.

Then the sweat box kiln, highly insulated and artificially heated, with moisture control...

 

[woodtickgreg]

I've seen people build solar kilns with old sliding patio doors, just build frames for the glass and seal them with silicone. Paint everything black to generate heat, leave room for dehumidifier and run the drain hose outside, a couple of fans and your good to go. You could probably salvage most of the materials. Get in touch with a window and door company as they usually just throw them away, I saw 2 patio sliders at a business today that where leaning on the dumpster. Build one then salvage the materials to build another so you can have different drying schedules depending on the species of wood and thickness.

 

[Mike1950]

David, what was the temp this AM how about PM? Is the sun out?. The difference this time of year i outside temps and inside greenhouse is minimal. Dehumidifier kiln works inour climate. You do not need kiln i summer. Hot and dry.

 

[Mr. Peet]

David, what was the temp this AM how about PM? Is the sun out?. The difference this time of year i outside temps and inside greenhouse is minimal. Dehumidifier kiln works inour climate. You do not need kiln i summer. Hot and dry.

Mike,

I follow your thought. South Dakota is where I was thinking. Lots of guys use their kilns to prolong the drying process, to avoid collapse and other defects of drying to quickly. So a summer kiln could be a very good safety net. The other issue David will have is icing. Most dehumidifiers ice up between 50 and 60 degrees F, unless you have a low temperature model that can often work as low as 40-45 degrees . So in the spring and fall, the unit might need to be manually activated to avoid ice issues. The range is the other issue. Some units have 70% as the highest setting. Consult kiln schedules for the woods you will most likely be using and purchase units that best cover the working range, and within your cost curve...

 

[Mike1950]

Mike,

I follow your thought. South Dakota is where I was thinking. Lots of guys use their kilns to prolong the drying process, to avoid collapse and other defects of drying to quickly. So a summer kiln could be a very good safety net. The other issue David will have is icing. Most dehumidifiers ice up between 50 and 60 degrees F, unless you have a low temperature model that can often work as low as 40-45 degrees . So in the spring and fall, the unit might need to be manually activated to avoid ice issues. The range is the other issue. Some units have 70% as the highest setting. Consult kiln schedules for the woods you will most likely be using and purchase units that best cover the working range, and within your cost curve...

Yer getting way to technical. I have used mine for 6 yrs. Never Iced up. Last winter filled it with frozen wood- 16 degrees. 300-350 bd ft. turned on 1 light- fan and dehumidifier. in 2 days it was at 80- shut light off- let it do it's thing. when it stops making water- shut it off and turn 3 lights on. 135 for 24 hrs and it is done. Very low tech- proof is in pudding it works. summer- cover and keep out of direct sunlight- it works. I dry mountains of wood in a very low tech way. it is all about temp- humidity and air movement..... My kiln is empty all summer. My dehumidifier - Highly sophisticated... - cheapest-on sale wally world has- keep hopin I can cash in on warranty but running them 24 /7 seems to suit them... Drying wood... we have been doing it for centuries maybe millenium - Kiln schedules??/ My schedule is keep it at 80 degrees which equates to a drip a second- as the wood dries and the drips slow the temp wants to rise. 90-100 is ok with a drip per 5 seconds- soon though the drips stop and why- ???? cause there aint no more water....... Now I realize you can find plenty of info that says this WILL NOTTTTT work. But as we speak- my kil;n is dead in water- full of curly claro walnut- black ash burl- and spalted maple burl- It is dry- well the 6 inch thick chunk of walnut was 17% inside but 2" is 7. Nothing will replace- building one and playing with it. Experience trumps all else. a simple kiln will work for David- solar is waste of $$$ JMO opinion but The kiln operators on WB have not chimed in..... well one very large mouthed one did......................

 

[Mr. Peet]

Wow Mike,

You for sure should play the lotto with your luck. Of the several properties I manage, a few include houses. As the newer generations take over they have to get more technical, often changing out the old dial Honeywell thermostats for new digital electronic models. Most of the older models only went down to 50 degrees while the others can be set far lower. I had no issue before, but has they lowered the temps, I did have units ice up multiple times at a few of the houses. I've had it once in my attic, a$200 Haier model, at 50 degrees. Since having these experiences my neighbor, an HVAC guy for 30 years, has convinced me to replace the older units as they fail with low temperature models. One place has a Kenmore model from the 60's, nothing seems to bother it.

As for your rub on kiln schedules, seems funny that the biggest 500+ kilns in the USA use them. Yes, mike, I'm sure your catch all method works for you, and I think that is great, but applying that method across the country may not hold truth. It would be great to see if we could test it.

As for your summer drying, we had 48 days of 70% moisture or higher from June- August, not at all a norm for us, but air drying was poor. As you said, it is all about temp- humidity and air movement.....

Wikipedia has some good weather info for you David
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huron,_South_Dakota

 

[Mike1950]

Wow Mike,

You for sure should play the lotto with your luck. Of the several properties I manage, a few include houses. As the newer generations take over they have to get more technical, often changing out the old dial Honeywell thermostats for new digital electronic models. Most of the older models only went down to 50 degrees while the others can be set far lower. I had no issue before, but has they lowered the temps, I did have units ice up multiple times at a few of the houses. I've had it once in my attic, a$200 Haier model, at 50 degrees. Since having these experiences my neighbor, an HVAC guy for 30 years, has convinced me to replace the older units as they fail with low temperature models. One place has a Kenmore model from the 60's, nothing seems to bother it.

As for your rub on kiln schedules, seems funny that the biggest 500+ kilns in the USA use them. Yes, mike, I'm sure your catch all method works for you, and I think that is great, but applying that method across the country may not hold truth. It would be great to see if we could test it.

As for your summer drying, we had 48 days of 70% moisture or higher from June- August, not at all a norm for us, but air drying was poor. As you said, it is all about temp- humidity and air movement.....

Wikipedia has some good weather info for you David
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huron,_South_Dakota

Not lotto- just basic common sense. Light goes on and fan. kiln heats to 60-70 at bottom of other end. Turn on dehumidifier- shut off light. insulated box maintains temp- if temp outside is 40 or above I vent to keep temp at 80-90. It works. 500 biggest kilns- sorry comparing/applying those and their methods to mine is absurd. Worked at a huge mill in 70's while I went to school. Giant steam kilns probably 40' tall x 100 x 200 they had 3 of them. It was cool when they opened doors in cold weather. let out a big cloud of steam looked sorta like a mini A-bomb going off in right conditions. also pissed off the neighbors cause it made it snow. They burnt their waste- created steam and all the electricity mill needed for mill plus some to pump into grid. I ran the Big and I mean really big yates or stetson-ross planers on night shift.
The kiln schedule made/makes it to where they can use minimum time /energy to dry the wood. This mill was old- the Yates was a 1920's machine. so they had experience. But if the kiln schedule and the lumber did not jive- it happened, the rough lumber coming out of kiln- especially ponderosa pine -small stuff-not the big turned into case hardened pretzels. which made for hell on the poor guy on the planer. so I have a little first hand knowledge with giant kilns and use of them. Their +'s and -'s.
My kiln is by no means the same game nor is my climate or David' compared to yours. I live at the edge of the desert. so close to edge that 30 miles to east it rains 30" a year vs our 15. High humidity in summer here is 35 low is single digits-normal june- oct humidity is 20 +-. Wood dries. I have been in the application side of wood biz off and on since I was 7 yrs old. almost 7 yrs now I have used this kiln- I was skeptical at first- seemed just too simple of a solution.... But proof is in what it does. I have spalted maple-curly claro walnut and black ash burl in it at the moment- but it is shut off- they are dry. just have not had time to unload. I will unload this next month and load again with maple burl after I slice it. probably second to last load before summer. well unless I need to fry some bugs......

and PS- they actually cool house to 50 degrees or you dehumidify attic..? yikes 50-75 has to be hell on houses and furniture. also another smile we humidify our houses- too dry.... I started my kiln with an old Kenmore- brown ugly beast- old style freon. great machine. Nice discussion I think you look at it from the book side- me I look at it more from the application side- and the we dont need no stinkin rules...

 

[Mr. Peet]

Mike,

Several of the homes are summer get-aways, so if the winter is to cold they either winterize or turn things way down. Yes, plays hell with furniture and sheetrock. The older generation always had it at 55 in the off season, but not this generation.

Yes, with the wood stove in the basement, sometimes we do humidify the house (2nd floor), but sometimes the wife would hang closes in the attic to avoid going outside. The attic floor is insulated so it can get cold up there.

Yep, nasty old brown Kenmore, still works...

I look at the book first and then the hands on. It often, but not always, has helped save a few headaches and dollars. I thank you for your perspective, good to know.

 

[Mike1950]

Mike,

Several of the homes are summer get-aways, so if the winter is to cold they either winterize or turn things way down. Yes, plays hell with furniture and sheetrock. The older generation always had it at 55 in the off season, but not this generation.

Yes, with the wood stove in the basement, sometimes we do humidify the house (2nd floor), but sometimes the wife would hang closes in the attic to avoid going outside. The attic floor is insulated so it can get cold up there.

Yep, nasty old brown Kenmore, still works...

I look at the book first and then the hands on. It often, but not always, has helped save a few headaches and dollars. I thank you for your perspective, good to know.

I always like our sparring conv- Kathie- wife has all the degrees in our family- me I am just crazy. My kenmore bit the dust but the new ones do ok. I have 2 that work now. Thought one puked but wood was dry. I really think difference is volume. If we are trying to dry 10's of thousands- maybe 100's of thousands of bd ft at a time- we need schedules and science- If we are drying 3-400 bd ft at a time- figured-burl Etc - we need experience. I cram unsealed wood/burl in there and know exactly what I will get - just depends on how Hot and when it gets- ...............

 

[Wildthings]

I always like our sparring conv- Kathie- wife has all the degrees in our family- me I am just crazy. My kenmore bit the dust but the new ones do ok. I have 2 that work now. Thought one puked but wood was dry. I really think difference is volume. If we are trying to dry 10's of thousands- maybe 100's of thousands of bd ft at a time- we need schedules and science- If we are drying 3-400 bd ft at a time- figured-burl Etc - we need experience. I cram unsealed wood/burl in there and know exactly what I will get - just depends on how Hot and when it gets- ...............

Just keep on doing what you're doing and sell that nasty figured stuff on here!!