Not a luthier in any sense of the word, but troglodytes can aspire.

Mike Hill

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Just for grins, we picked up this cello that's missing a few parts and pieces. We probably got it 5 years ago at least. Now, I'm not one to be in a hurry, but decided I should start on the repair. There are people on here, and my wife is included, that say I don't do anything - so this will be proof, that Lil Mikey does do something at least once every 5 years. Since my wife is probably going to sell it in her antiques business as a decorative piece, I'm not gonna do a full repair and add all the parts back. Basically put a neck and fretboard on. Neck will be non-descript maple - fretboard will probably be mahogany. I've got those in the whoard somewhere! Don't know yet if it will have a refreshed finish or will be painted - (don't ask - but remember I said this will be a decorative piece). First time working on a cello - banjars, geetars, fiddles, dulcimers, I've worked on, but not something as fancy as a cello!

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First thing to do is to remove the heel that remains from the neck. How, it broke - one can only guess. I would assume it wasn't used on someone's head or was run over by a 4x4 as the body is in pretty good shape. After the removal of the heel, there will be a need for me to sharpen the chisels as, there needs to be a dado cut to receive the tenon I'll carve into the new heel. I'm sure that old maple won't be soft!

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Mr. Peet

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You are killing me....decorative...uhg,,,no! Musical instruments are not decoration, the people who hold and play them are. I bet she could sing again if you just let her....
 

Mike Hill

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Main problem with doing more is my plan on reattaching the neck/heel. Will it hold up to the tension of the strings.
 

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Well that'll be an interesting learning experience for you. There should be a dado already cut into the neck block, you should only need to clean it up and make a new neck that fits into that dado (easier said than done). I don't know how cello necks are made but we route dados and glue in two strips of hard maple into the guitar necks to strengthen them so you could try that. Guitars have the truss rod glued into them as well. I'm guessing cellos don't need a truss rod. Cello's have a fancy carved headstock usually, with 4 large pegs, right? And the fingerboard is long, doesn't attach to the top but extends way over the top toward the bridge. And the bridge isn't glued to the top either, it is held in place by the tension on the strings. And there's a different tail piece that has a string that loops over a screw in the tail somehow.
 

Mike Hill

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Yep, the dado is there, just filled in with hard glue and hard maple. But mostly cleaned out now with the aid of some sharp chisels and gouges. No truss rod (adjusting the bow in the neck doesn't apply to cellos - maybe because of no frets), but I do wonder about that hole is in the heel. It has threads in it - so I surmise it possibly some sort of repair on the neck. Only thing that could be there might be some sort of screw to hold the fingerboard on - but have not seen that.

It's not the strength of the neck that I worry about - it is out of hard maple. The joint is what I wonder about. There is a gap between what are essentially the end of the sides and the dado that is the thickness of the sides. I'm debating whether to fill in those gaps by epoxying in some thin wood or to customize the tenon to also fit into the gap. I will probably have to fill in with the thin wood and epoxy. There is a little nub of the back that extends to cover the end of the heel that I would like to preserve. I was successful in cutting it free of the heel. But when shaping the heel I didn't allow for going deeper with the tenon and making a shoulder to fill in the gaps.

The headstock will be a simple spiral - no lions or monkeys! If I think the joint is strong enough, I might try to make a bridge and tailpiece and string it up. Wife will probably nix that as she probably won't be able to recoup the extra expense of strings, etc....
 

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Yep, the dado is there, just filled in with hard glue and hard maple. But mostly cleaned out now with the aid of some sharp chisels and gouges. No truss rod (adjusting the bow in the neck doesn't apply to cellos - maybe because of no frets), but I do wonder about that hole is in the heel. It has threads in it - so I surmise it possibly some sort of repair on the neck. Only thing that could be there might be some sort of screw to hold the fingerboard on - but have not seen that.

It's not the strength of the neck that I worry about - it is out of hard maple. The joint is what I wonder about. There is a gap between what are essentially the end of the sides and the dado that is the thickness of the sides. I'm debating whether to fill in those gaps by epoxying in some thin wood or to customize the tenon to also fit into the gap. I will probably have to fill in with the thin wood and epoxy. There is a little nub of the back that extends to cover the end of the heel that I would like to preserve. I was successful in cutting it free of the heel. But when shaping the heel I didn't allow for going deeper with the tenon and making a shoulder to fill in the gaps.

The headstock will be a simple spiral - no lions or monkeys! If I think the joint is strong enough, I might try to make a bridge and tailpiece and string it up. Wife will probably nix that as she probably won't be able to recoup the extra expense of strings, etc....
Anytime you can take a pic of what you are referencing, it would be a helpful learning experience for us non-luthiers! Chuck
 

Arn213

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Come on li’l Mikey, you can make this playable and not become a wallpaper- you can do it. @DLJeffs gave you some great information. I’ll add some to get you motivated to “get her done”……

You will need a flush cut saw or one of those Japanese saw (ahem, you know what I am talking about and perfect time to get those puppies to work). You will need that to cut the heel off. You will also need a pairing chisel to remove the remnants of the neck heel inferred tenon and to clean up the mortise.

As far as fabricating a replacement neck- you can buy it pre-made as you know as well as other parts if you don’t feel comfortable making one from scratch. However, I am confident you can tackle this with your experience and skill.

You will need some tools which I know you already have- spokehalves to shave the neck shaft to get the profile/contour, rasp, carving knife, gouge chisel (to shape the volute), jewelry saw, finger planes, clamps, the proper glue and a bandsaw to cut the neck shape.

Wood wise- your wood library in your office (lol) will easily suffice with the hard maple neck blank and the saddle (true quarter sawn without any grain run out) Gaboon ebony for the fingerboard and the tail piece. The tuning pegs and the bridge pins out of ebony (gaboon) you can buy. The wood preferred is air dried and well seasoned material- at least 10 years minimum for violin, viola, cello, bass instruments.

The tricky part is figuring out the proper angle for the neck along with the bridge and the tail piece. You have to get that correct so the action and relief is low and not high.

Then trying to mix the old with the new is the next quandary- the replacement neck should match the patina and wear of the cello body. No, don’t drag the new neck on the floor or hit it with chains (lol). You have to imagine what the player traction when this was played over time creating certain wear on the areas of the neck resulting in different patina in the length. The second route is to refinish the body to new to match the new neck replacement, but that will take away from years and decades of honest play wear, patina and antiquity of the body.

That is the easy part and the hard part is after you post pics., instrument is only an instrument if it is playable and functional- so I expect from you a proper Bach: Cello Suite No. 1 in G Major recital. We will bring the wine and the cheese to your debut concert and an interlude of a “Sonnet” from you. Lol- now you are wishing I never came back here.
 
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Mike Hill

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Come on li’l Mikey, you can make this playable and not become a wallpaper- you can do it. @DLJeffs gave you some great information. I’ll add some to get you motivated to “get her done”……

You will need a flush cut saw or one of those Japanese saw (ahem, you know what I am talking about and perfect time to get those puppies to work). You will need that to cut the heel off. You will also need a pairing chisel to remove the remnants of the neck heel inferred tenon and to clean up the dado.

As far as fabricating a replacement neck- you can buy it pre-made as you know as well as other parts if you don’t feel comfortable making one from scratch. However, I am confident you can tackle this with your experience and skill.

You will need some tools which I know you already have- spokehalves to shave the neck shaft to get the profile/contour, rasp, carving knife, gouge chisel (to shape the volute), jewelry saw, finger planes, clamps, the proper glue and a bandsaw to cut the neck shape.

Wood wise- your wood library in your office (lol) will easily suffice with the hard maple neck blank and the saddle (true quarter sawn without any grain run out) Gaboon ebony for the fingerboard and the tail piece. The tuning pegs and the bridge pins out of ebony (gaboon) you can buy. The wood preferred is air dried and well seasoned material- at least 10 years minimum for violin, viola, cello, bass instruments.

The tricky part is figuring out the proper angle for the neck along with the bridge and the tail piece. You have to get that correct so the action and relief is low and not high.

Then trying to mix the old with the new is the next quandary- the replacement neck should match the patina and wear of the cello body. No, don’t drag the new neck on the floor or hit it with chains (lol). You have to imagine what the player traction when this was played over time creating certain wear on the areas of the neck resulting in different patina in the length. The second route is to refinish the body to new to match the new neck replacement, but that will take away from years and decades of honest play wear, patina and antiquity of the body.

That is the easy part and the hard part is after you post pics., instrument is only an instrument if it is playable and functional- so I expect from you a proper Bach: Cello Suite No. 1 in G Major recital. We will bring the wine and the cheese to your debut concert and an interlude of a “Sonnet” from you. Lol- now you are wishing I never came back here.
BTW - I got that last package. - have not opened it yet. - you know prying eyes and all.

Done did the cutting off of the heel and cleaning out the dado and pretty much shaped the neck. Good workout with a drawknife, saws, chisels, gouges, various carving rasps, etc....., sandpaper and scrapers next. Did it to the contour, angle, and shape of another that we have. Started work on the fretboard using a friend's table saw - mine's buried. Guess I'll need to get a tapered bit to do the holes for the tuning pegs.
 

Arn213

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FWI- they never ever use a truss rods for these bowed instruments. Earlier built string instruments did not have truss rods as well and Gibson back in the early 1920’s started to employ them. The additional of a truss does several things that changes the sonic transmission and projection of the resonance and sustain in an instrument. It also adds to the weight of the neck. My luthier friends have shared with me these findings and the biggest reason the truss rod is implemented is due to the temps and humidity changes to be able to adjust the neck so it is at its optimum. There are ways to get around that by putting in a “fillet” material at either sides of the neck shaft or in the middle or combination in order to stiffen the neck due to the span- carbon fiber is one of them or very hard and dense maple (or same material species with a denser fillet). That only works if the wood being used is dry and well seasoned plus you gave it space to acclimate to let the internal stress out as you go through the motion- patience is virtue.
 
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Arn213

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BTW - I got that last package. - have not opened it yet. - you know prying eyes and all.

Done did the cutting off of the heel and cleaning out the dado and pretty much shaped the neck. Good workout with a drawknife, saws, chisels, gouges, various carving rasps, etc....., sandpaper and scrapers next. Did it to the contour, angle, and shape of another that we have. Started work on the fretboard using a friend's table saw - mine's buried. Guess I'll need to get a tapered bit to do the holes for the tuning pegs.
My post overlapped with yours and what I said you already have done. Great! I forgot about the drill bits to bore the hole. If you cannot access a band saw, you can use a jewelry saw, but you will labor a bit and take time to cut it because of its density.

Great you received, the last package as it took me a bit of time to properly protect that set. I can’t tell you how long it took me, but you will see with the custom pattern I cut to be able to have the panels flush. When you get a chance, please do open it and separate that set from the rest- cut from the end first and then use a knife to release the tape from the side. The set has its own case and it is on top and will separate from the 12/4 at the bottom.
 
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I agree with Chuck, post some pics as you make these parts, I'm interested to see how it goes. I did some google research and see you can buy bridges, or make your own I suppose with a scroll saw. But I think as Arn mentioned, the angle of the fingerboard/neck; bridge and its location; and tail piece all have to conspire together to get the sound and playability you want.
 

Arn213

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There are also better choices that is not invasive for adhesives outside of epoxy like hide glue (also fish glue) which is easier to remove if you need to, should the neck required a reset or replacement in the future.
 
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Mike Hill

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Was thinking about the hide glue, but thought epoxy might give better strength and adhesion. But decision not set in stone - so to speak.

If I go that far, I will make the bridge - I have a Dewalt scroll saw I sorta rebuilt last year that I have to use sometime to justify the rebuild.

Again, If my wife doesn't lay the law down for just a deco piece, I have to decide on what to do with the finish. Would a french polish technique (sorta) (0000 steel wool and denatured alcohol) level everything out, or do I need to strip or rubdown with steel wood and lay on another coat of shellac? I've used the denatured alcohol on furniture with good success
 

Arn213

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but I do wonder about that hole is in the heel. It has threads in it - so I surmise it possibly some sort of repair on the neck. Only thing that could be there might be some sort of screw to hold the fingerboard on - but have not seen that.
I looked at this again and from the photo this appeared to be a stacked heel because I can see a witness line at the upper portion of it where it was glued. The bore hole is threaded and had a threaded dowel to line up the 2 pieces and to keep the alignment in place. That area would have been accessible before the ebony was glued in place on top of the maple neck surface.
 

Arn213

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Was thinking about the hide glue, but thought epoxy might give better strength and adhesion. But decision not set in stone - so to speak.

If I go that far, I will make the bridge - I have a Dewalt scroll saw I sorta rebuilt last year that I have to use sometime to justify the rebuild.

Again, If my wife doesn't lay the law down for just a deco piece, I have to decide on what to do with the finish. Would a french polish technique (sorta) (0000 steel wool and denatured alcohol) level everything out, or do I need to strip or rubdown with steel wood and lay on another coat of shellac? I've used the denatured alcohol on furniture with good success
The idea of using hide glue is you want some flex for expansion and construction for musical instruments. It is also easier to remove when you need a neck reset or replacement. Epoxy is used more commercially for electric guitar application from fretboard to neck shaft adhesion- rosewood and ebony. It is very strong and durable- but it has its down side as I mentioned above.
 

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Hide glue is also quicker, right? Once it cools, it's set up.

I've watched several videos about refinishing instruments and they span the whole spectrum - from sanding it down to bare wood and starting anew, to simply using some ultra fine grit polishing wax and a green scrubbing pad to clean off any old dirt and grease and polishing the remaining finish. If you knew it was french polish with shellac, theoretically, you can remelt and relevel the shellac as you described and then just repolish the finish. Although, I wouldn't use steel wool. Use either a very fine grit scrubbing pad or 400 - 600 grit paper on any areas with deeper scratches, etc. but go easy, use a light touch. Otherwise, all you need is a lint free pad (wad of rag) and some 1% - 2% cut shellac. The alcohol in the cut will melt and redistribute the existing shellac and the 1%-2% new shellac will help fill any scratches, etc. Remember to sweep the pad onto the surface of the cello, keep it constantly in motion, and never let the pad stop or sit stationary on the finish or the alcohol will melt that area and damage the finish and you'll need to redo it. Once the pad starts to dry you can start applying more pressure but never let it stop moving.
 

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I'm still with Mrs. Lil Mikey. I see plenty of picture evidence of a project to be worked, but no picture evidence of work actually being done.
 

Mike Hill

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tsk, tsk, tsk. Patience grasshopper! It's been raining and the weeds are growing fastly!
 
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