Cholla and turqoise questions

[DLJeffs]

Attention all you casters and epoxiers and people who like to imbed stuff in other stuff. I want to try something and need some guidance. Jerry ( @Nubsnstubs ) sent me a few cholla slices to experiment with. I think I'd like to marry these two bookmatched slices together to use as a lid on a box. AND.... and want to fill the large hole in each half with turquoise and epoxy. My younger brother before he passed away was doing some rock collecting and polishing and he had this little vial of turquoise nuggets. I'd like to use them to fill the holes. So here's my questions:

1. What epoxy / casting resin would you recommend? (I'm not looking to get into this in a big way, one or two small projects at most probably)

2. The turquoise nuggets are too big to fill the holes in the cholla, they leave too many voids. Can I crush a few of the nuggets with a hammer or something to get smaller pieces to more fully fill the holes?

3. When I fill the holes, I assume some turquoise will stick up above the cholla surface when I sand it all flat, will finishing still work okay or do I need to ensure the turqouise nuggets are all below the level of the cholla when I do this?

4. Can I use regular old sandpaper that I use on wood projects to sand this after the pour or do I need special sand paper?

Thanks in advance for any help and advice.
Doug

 

[Gdurfey]

I have pursued a little of this but I think @Bean_counter may be one of the experts.

I talked with some folks and ended up finding crushed turquoise. One guy showed me his crusher and don’t remember exactly but it involved pipe, a cap (seems like 1 1/2 to 2” diameter), as the crusher and maybe a pvc cap as the mortice? Maybe……. But to answer the secon question, yes, crush. Just hate to see pretty nuggets crushed.

Question 1: Alumilite has a clear, deep pour. Highly recommended by others. Several other companies are doing more products since the fad started. System 3 gets mentioned. You have to watch for the epoxies that are meant for “bar tops” vs those for casting items. No, you don’t need a pressure pot or anything like that. Maybe a butane/propane plumbing torch to ensure all the trapped bubbles are released. I used Tyvek tape as a base in a form and the epoxy released from it pretty well. I was just in my Woodcraft looking over their different epoxies as I want to get back into that effort this winter and Alumilite makes small batch packaging, you don’t have to commit to 2 gallons of the stuff.

for the next 2 questions, that is why I was going to the ships was to try to get everything covered in resin. Will be interesting to see how you approach this part of the equation, I like your solutions, they are often spot on.

Hope this at least gives you more questions.

 

[Nubsnstubs]

I have pursued a little of this but I think @Bean_counter may be one of the experts.

I talked with some folks and ended up finding crushed turquoise. One guy showed me his crusher and don’t remember exactly but it involved pipe, a cap (seems like 1 1/2 to 2” diameter), as the crusher and maybe a pvc cap as the mortice? Maybe……. But to answer the secon question, yes, crush. Just hate to see pretty nuggets crushed.

Question 1: Alumilite has a clear, deep pour. Highly recommended by others. Several other companies are doing more products since the fad started. System 3 gets mentioned. You have to watch for the epoxies that are meant for “bar tops” vs those for casting items. No, you don’t need a pressure pot or anything like that. Maybe a butane/propane plumbing torch to ensure all the trapped bubbles are released. I used Tyvek tape as a base in a form and the epoxy released from it pretty well. I was just in my Woodcraft looking over their different epoxies as I want to get back into that effort this winter and Alumilite makes small batch packaging, you don’t have to commit to 2 gallons of the stuff.

for the next 2 questions, that is why I was going to the ships was to try to get everything covered in resin. Will be interesting to see how you approach this part of the equation, I like your solutions, they are often spot on.

Hope this at least gives you more questions.

The crusher would normally be a pipe and cap, black or galvanized, (prefer black pipe), about 12" long that you could fit a 18" x 3/4" steel stake used in concrete into with some slop. The pipe is the container and the stake is the crusher. You put in some of the turquoise, slamming and pounding the crusher down to break up the stones. Use a screen to sift and add more rock plus the stuff that didn't crush.
When you have enough, pour it into whatever holes you want, pour your epoxy, and when it's cured, use a belt sander to make it smooth. It isn't impossible, but does come with headaches, like the epoxied stone not sanding as well as the wood.
I have not used real turquoise, but some green rock I got for Goldfield, Nevada, that was kinda soft, but for turning it was terrible on my tools. It did sand, though. ............ Nubs

 

[vegas urban lumber]

I have pursued a little of this but I think @Bean_counter may be one of the experts.

I talked with some folks and ended up finding crushed turquoise. One guy showed me his crusher and don’t remember exactly but it involved pipe, a cap (seems like 1 1/2 to 2” diameter), as the crusher and maybe a pvc cap as the mortice? Maybe……. But to answer the secon question, yes, crush. Just hate to see pretty nuggets crushed.

Question 1: Alumilite has a clear, deep pour. Highly recommended by others. Several other companies are doing more products since the fad started. System 3 gets mentioned. You have to watch for the epoxies that are meant for “bar tops” vs those for casting items. No, you don’t need a pressure pot or anything like that. Maybe a butane/propane plumbing torch to ensure all the trapped bubbles are released. I used Tyvek tape as a base in a form and the epoxy released from it pretty well. I was just in my Woodcraft looking over their different epoxies as I want to get back into that effort this winter and Alumilite makes small batch packaging, you don’t have to commit to 2 gallons of the stuff.

for the next 2 questions, that is why I was going to the ships was to try to get everything covered in resin. Will be interesting to see how you approach this part of the equation, I like your solutions, they are often spot on.

Hope this at least gives you more questions.

if it's synthetic turquoise, caveat that it may not be blue through

 

[Gdurfey]

if it's synthetic turquoise, caveat that it may not be blue through

See, I always forget to think about that. Great point. My supply is real, but I know there is synthetic and I couldn’t identify the synthetic stuff. Now you may ask how do I know mine is real. Great question person with the plaid shirt in the front row. Where I had the conversation and purchased was with turquoise miners and craft folks and these small pieces were from their own stash they were selling for this type of use. In one case, the guy was actually making smaller pieces and sorting.

 

[Gdurfey]

The crusher would normally be a pipe and cap, black or galvanized, (prefer black pipe), about 12" long that you could fit a 18" x 3/4" steel stake used in concrete into with some slop. The pipe is the container and the stake is the crusher. You put in some of the turquoise, slamming and pounding the crusher down to break up the stones. Use a screen to sift and add more rock plus the stuff that didn't crush.
When you have enough, pour it into whatever holes you want, pour your epoxy, and when it's cured, use a belt sander to make it smooth. It isn't impossible, but does come with headaches, like the epoxied stone not sanding as well as the wood.
I have not used real turquoise, but some green rock I got for Goldfield, Nevada, that was kinda soft, but for turning it was terrible on my tools. It did sand, though. ............ Nubs

Does close count? Thanks Jerry, that was it. I had most of the pieces…….

 

[Nubsnstubs]

Does close count? Thanks Jerry, that was it. I had most of the pieces…….

When I started my answer, you were tagged, but as I got deeper into the answer, I deleted the tag as I kept revising my description. Looking back now, your tag could have been left in. ........... Nubs

 

[DLJeffs]

Okay, so far I have -
1. It's okay to crush up the turquoise with a recommendation for making a crushing tool from pipe
2. Alumilite for resin - I don't have a pressure pot but the depth of this cast is half inch and it'll be mostly full of turquoise so I don't think trapped air bubbles will be a problem , I have a heat gun I can use to heat the epoxy to help release air bubbles.
3. No problem if some turquoise bits poke up above the cholla, they'll sand off flush, just take care when sanding because the cholla will be much softer than the epoxy and turquoise

anything else I should know?

Oh, here's one. I plan to use tape to seal the bottom when I pour the epoxy into the holes. Would it be best to flip my cholla upside down and pour from the bottom side? That would make the taped side the top of the lid and probably would be smoother and easier sanding. If there's any issue with the epoxy it would then be on the inside of the lid.

 

[Eric Rorabaugh]

The only thing with using Alumilite and no pressure pot is it still sets up quickly before the air bubbles escape unless you use deep pour. You can use Liquid Diamonds and it will set up overnight without a pressure pot. I use both when casting. @Bean_counter can add to this convo. If it were me, I'd use LD.

 

[DLJeffs]

The only thing with using Alumilite and no pressure pot is it still sets up quickly before the air bubbles escape unless you use deep pour. You can use Liquid Diamonds and it will set up overnight without a pressure pot. I use both when casting. @Bean_counter can add to this convo. If it were me, I'd use LD.

Excellent, this is the kind of experienced advice I like.

 

[barry richardson]

I have done a lot of fills like that simply using 5 min 2 part epoxy. I color the epoxy with turquoise mica powder, add the crushed stone, and it forms sort of a grout. Seal the bottom of the hole and work the grout in. Do it in small batches. One for batch for each hole should suffice. Over fill the holes. I grind it down to level with a diamond file, or you can use a regular file, don't use your good one though, the rock will dull it. Silicone carbide works best for sanding it, but regular sand paper will work, it just takes longer...

 

[DLJeffs]

Thanks Barry. Would the 20 min 2 part epoxy work just as well, but take longer? I find the 20 min stuff to be a little less viscous which might help it work into the fine nooks and crannies in the cholla. Or I have 2 part craft epoxy or 2 part rod building epoxy which are even thinner but I don't believe they dry into as hard a finish.

And hit it with a heat gun to remove surface bubbles and help it level?

 

[Bean_counter]

Sorry I’m late to the party. I’ll answer based on the order of the questions. Also feel free to pm for my number and I can explain probably better over the phone.

1. Since this is a small one off project I am going to assume no pressure pot. If no pot, like @Eric Rorabaugh said alumilite urethane resin (slow and clear slow) are out of the question for this project. Like Eric said I’d go with an epoxy like liquid diamonds, while not cheap it does provide ample working time and time for the bubbles to escape. Anything faster you’re really going to fight bubbles. I’d YouTube some videos on guys doing river tables to get a sense of what you’re going to be doing. A good plumbing/sweating torch is probably a must to help with the bubbles. You’ll also need to make some kind of form for the epoxy.

2. Crushing the nuggets with a hammer is going to be brutal since you won’t have a way to keep the stones from flying everywhere. Like both Jerry (nubs) and Garry (Gdurfey) state a pipe is going to be your best bet here also. I’ve attached a pic of my setup. Also Sam Angelo (wyomingwoodturner) has a good video on
showing the same set up in a little bit more detail.

3. I’d keep the turquoise below the cholla it’ll make sanding much easier for a couple reasons. Stone is harder than the cholla and epoxy so it’s going to be hard to keep it all flat. And 2. Sanding stone sucks lol but it is doable.

4. Id recommend regular sandpaper up to about 400 grit then I’d move on to wet/dry (automotive) and sand to at least 2500 grit then apply some kind of polish. McGuire’s automotive is a good one and can be found at Walmart.

good luck and tag me on the final product so I can see it. I’m terrible at looking at other forums besides the sale ones.

 

[barry richardson]

Thanks Barry. Would the 20 min 2 part epoxy work just as well, but take longer? I find the 20 min stuff to be a little less viscous which might help it work into the fine nooks and crannies in the cholla. Or I have 2 part craft epoxy or 2 part rod building epoxy which are even thinner but I don't believe they dry into as hard a finish.

And hit it with a heat gun to remove surface bubbles and help it level?

20 min epoxy will work fine, I just use 5 min cause it is what I have around, I usually don't bother with a heat gun, as the grout is to thick to release air, once I sand it down to level, there are usually some voids, I just fill those with dabs of mica colored epoxy. if this is a one time deal, I wouldn't bother with making a pipe crusher. Just put a heavy piece of metal, (the flat side of an ax or sledgehammer works great) place it in a clear trash bag, reach your hands inside and beat the stone with a hammer on your anvil inside the trash bag. it will contain almost all the fragments. Hope that makes sense.

 

[DLJeffs]

Sorry I’m late to the party. I’ll answer based on the order of the questions. Also feel free to pm for my number and I can explain probably better over the phone.

1. Since this is a small one off project I am going to assume no pressure pot. If no pot, like @Eric Rorabaugh said alumilite urethane resin (slow and clear slow) are out of the question for this project. Like Eric said I’d go with an epoxy like liquid diamonds, while not cheap it does provide ample working time and time for the bubbles to escape. Anything faster you’re really going to fight bubbles. I’d YouTube some videos on guys doing river tables to get a sense of what you’re going to be doing. A good plumbing/sweating torch is probably a must to help with the bubbles. You’ll also need to make some kind of form for the epoxy.

2. Crushing the nuggets with a hammer is going to be brutal since you won’t have a way to keep the stones from flying everywhere. Like both Jerry (nubs) and Garry (Gdurfey) state a pipe is going to be your best bet here also. I’ve attached a pic of my setup. Also Sam Angelo (wyomingwoodturner) has a good video on
showing the same set up in a little bit more detail.

3. I’d keep the turquoise below the cholla it’ll make sanding much easier for a couple reasons. Stone is harder than the cholla and epoxy so it’s going to be hard to keep it all flat. And 2. Sanding stone sucks lol but it is doable.

4. Id recommend regular sandpaper up to about 400 grit then I’d move on to wet/dry (automotive) and sand to at least 2500 grit then apply some kind of polish. McGuire’s automotive is a good one and can be found at Walmart.

good luck and tag me on the final product so I can see it. I’m terrible at looking at other forums besides the sale ones.
View attachment 283006

Thanks very much for providing some advice Michael. Good stuff about the turquoise and epoxy and sanding.

 

[DLJeffs]

20 min epoxy will work fine, I just use 5 min cause it is what I have around, I usually don't bother with a heat gun, as the grout is to thick to release air, once I sand it down to level, there are usually some voids, I just fill those with dabs of mica colored epoxy. if this is a one time deal, I wouldn't bother with making a pipe crusher. Just put a heavy piece of metal, (the flat side of an ax or sledgehammer works great) place it in a clear trash bag, reach your hands inside and beat the stone with a hammer on your anvil inside the trash bag. it will contain almost all the fragments. Hope that makes sense.

Thanks Barry. I did a trial at crushing up a turquoise nugget - put it on a metal plate I have, covered with a section of blue jean rag, tapped with a hammer a few times. It works, kept everything in a little pile. The rag starts to hole through so I'd have to move the spot around each time I changed nugget. But the trash bag idea might work too.

 

[DLJeffs]

I think is going to work well. Did this in 3 steps.

1. Put tape over the holes I wanted to fill with turquoise and epoxy (put the tape on what will be the top surface of the cholla). Then flipped the pieces over and poured a thin layer of clear epoxy (I used the plain old 2 ton stuff, 20 minute cure), maybe a 32nd of inch. This was driven by Barry and Michael's comments about how hard it is to sand the turquoise and not over sand the cholla around it.

2. After that was about 80% cured, I started filling in the turquoise nuggets using tweezers and a dubbing needle. Tried to tile the two larger holes as completely as I could, test fitting nuggets to get the best fit. Decided to put turquoise in a couple of the smaller holes as well to kind of dress up the pieces a little. Then I mixed up enough clear epoxy to cover the turquoise nuggets.

3. After that dried, I mixed more epoxy, this time with ebony sawdust mixed in to make it black. Completely filled the holes and a few others sort of at random. Tried to just fill the holes to minimize the necessary sanding in the future.

Thanks to all who offered ideas and recommendations. Next up I need to figure out what I'll do with these two cholla flats.

 

[vegas urban lumber]

I think is going to work well. Did this in 3 steps.

1. Put tape over the holes I wanted to fill with turquoise and epoxy (put the tape on what will be the top surface of the cholla). Then flipped the pieces over and poured a thin layer of clear epoxy (I used the plain old 2 ton stuff, 20 minute cure), maybe a 32nd of inch. This was driven by Barry and Michael's comments about how hard it is to sand the turquoise and not over sand the cholla around it.

2. After that was about 80% cured, I started filling in the turquoise nuggets using tweezers and a dubbing needle. Tried to tile the two larger holes as completely as I could, test fitting nuggets to get the best fit. Decided to put turquoise in a couple of the smaller holes as well to kind of dress up the pieces a little. Then I mixed up enough clear epoxy to cover the turquoise nuggets.

3. After that dried, I mixed more epoxy, this time with ebony sawdust mixed in to make it black. Completely filled the holes and a few others sort of at random. Tried to just fill the holes to minimize the necessary sanding in the future.

Thanks to all who offered ideas and recommendations. Next up I need to figure out what I'll do with these two cholla flats.

View attachment 283152

View attachment 283153

you might consider in the future adding glow in the dark powder in the epoxy for added wow factor

Amazon.com

strontium aluminate glow powder

 

[daniscool]

you might consider in the future adding glow in the dark powder in the epoxy for added wow factor

Amazon.com

strontium aluminate glow powder

I believe it is somewhat toxic wear ppe obviously

 

[vegas urban lumber]

I believe it is somewhat toxic wear ppe obviously

zero toxicity, i've worked it a lot. incorporated it in glass when i had my glass studio