Cuban Mahogany, Bubinga, etc

Mike1950

Founding Member
Founding Member
Full Member
Messages
28,241
Reaction score
41,546
Location
Eastern Washington
First name
Mike
You always seem to find a way to pull me in and the truth of the matter is, we will be the only lonely two that would have racket at hand, hitting the ball from one court to the next. We are not ever going to solve this and we will be going around in circles to only arrive to the same issue(s) you posted.

As far as species being endemic to a specific country and if certain species grown in other countries, then there should be another category implemented that would list it in documents or in a receipt that “African Blackwood (dalbergia melanoxylon)/Hawaiian grown”. You have then to prove with time and date stamp photo’s of where it was standing (with coordinates), photo of the milled stock (with measuring tape), how much it would yield in sub-category of component parts, etc. This is kind of the way they treat those CITES restricted material in order to get passports and permits, like what luthiers go through “before” they triangulate a billet into component parts or approximate what the yield is. This just adds time, energy, raise the cost of material (raw & finished goods) and those having jurisdictions, just get to pad their pockets. It just gets ridiculous. But, since this is not endemic to Hawaii, it should be allowed for import and export (again you have to prove it with documents and photo’s).

The same with genuine mahogany that is not endemic to central and South American countries that grow them (there is not one country that this swietenia mac. is endemic to, not unless you go back in time where Belize/British Honduras was the largest supplier for trade). Take Fiji mahogany for instance- that is genuine mahogany, but not endemic to Fiji. An Australian vendor showed me containers of these woods for guitar building, he told me he is allowed to import it and export it because this is not endemic to Fiji. So he has it marketed as “Fiji Mahogany”. He has paperwork and he has photo’s of the wood and a trail of photo’s when the Fijians were loading these slabs into a container to head to AU. No one will mistaken these for old growth material because they have wide growth rings and they have tiny knots.

Tracing the tree from it’s origin, into log form, into milled lumber, to the vendor/country that it was imported to, to the buyer, to the buyer that re-sold the wood (in many sizes after processing), then to the next steward(s), etc.- the chain of custody would be next to impossible to keep it in line and organized. Some folks also barter- how do you handle that with chain of custody? Good luck with all of that.

Most exotic woods coming to us now from all those countries are most likely have not followed the legal route. Check most on-line vendors and they will have new arrivals of exotic materials. There are restricted species there and they don’t mention anything that the wood was “legally procured and obtained”. I see a well known and reputable vendor that has green genuine rosewood that was harvested last year (they own up that this was harvested in 2023). Ask yourself how were they able to import this from another continent into the US when it is CITES II protected from 2017? They list it and they have a disclaimer that this “can only be shipped to US address only”.

That new EU regulations deforestation being pushed for 2025 and now being pushed back for 2026 will have great impact on timber importations. It will not just have financial ramification to the Euro community, but a “domino effect” globally and especially to a great deal of suppliers in the US on maple, alder, ash, etc. that builders in Europe depends on us for guitar building. There will be a major backlash and I doubt it would be implemented because it will greatly affect a large deal of commerce in different trades globally. We will see a rise in cost on raw and especially finished goods.
My problem is rules are made and the only people punished are the ones that lost their jobs. Mozambique has almost been cut bare in last 20 years and only 15-20% has been legally cut. Most going to our favorite consumer of goods, lack of high morals and follows absolutely no laws. China
 

Mike1950

Founding Member
Founding Member
Full Member
Messages
28,241
Reaction score
41,546
Location
Eastern Washington
First name
Mike
You always seem to find a way to pull me in and the truth of the matter is, we will be the only lonely two that would have racket at hand, hitting the ball from one court to the next. We are not ever going to solve this and we will be going around in circles to only arrive to the same issue(s) you posted.

As far as species being endemic to a specific country and if certain species grown in other countries, then there should be another category implemented that would list it in documents or in a receipt that “African Blackwood (dalbergia melanoxylon)/Hawaiian grown”. You have then to prove with time and date stamp photo’s of where it was standing (with coordinates), photo of the milled stock (with measuring tape), how much it would yield in sub-category of component parts, etc. This is kind of the way they treat those CITES restricted material in order to get passports and permits, like what luthiers go through “before” they triangulate a billet into component parts or approximate what the yield is. This just adds time, energy, raise the cost of material (raw & finished goods) and those having jurisdictions, just get to pad their pockets. It just gets ridiculous. But, since this is not endemic to Hawaii, it should be allowed for import and export (again you have to prove it with documents and photo’s).

The same with genuine mahogany that is not endemic to central and South American countries that grow them (there is not one country that this swietenia mac. is endemic to, not unless you go back in time where Belize/British Honduras was the largest supplier for trade). Take Fiji mahogany for instance- that is genuine mahogany, but not endemic to Fiji. An Australian vendor showed me containers of these woods for guitar building, he told me he is allowed to import it and export it because this is not endemic to Fiji. So he has it marketed as “Fiji Mahogany”. He has paperwork and he has photo’s of the wood and a trail of photo’s when the Fijians were loading these slabs into a container to head to AU. No one will mistaken these for old growth material because they have wide growth rings and they have tiny knots.

Tracing the tree from it’s origin, into log form, into milled lumber, to the vendor/country that it was imported to, to the buyer, to the buyer that re-sold the wood (in many sizes after processing), then to the next steward(s), etc.- the chain of custody would be next to impossible to keep it in line and organized. Some folks also barter- how do you handle that with chain of custody? Good luck with all of that.

Most exotic woods coming to us now from all those countries are most likely have not followed the legal route. Check most on-line vendors and they will have new arrivals of exotic materials. There are restricted species there and they don’t mention anything that the wood was “legally procured and obtained”. I see a well known and reputable vendor that has green genuine rosewood that was harvested last year (they own up that this was harvested in 2023). Ask yourself how were they able to import this from another continent into the US when it is CITES II protected from 2017? They list it and they have a disclaimer that this “can only be shipped to US address only”.

That new EU regulations deforestation being pushed for 2025 and now being pushed back for 2026 will have great impact on timber importations. It will not just have financial ramification to the Euro community, but a “domino effect” globally and especially to a great deal of suppliers in the US on maple, alder, ash, etc. that builders in Europe depends on us for guitar building. There will be a major backlash and I doubt it would be implemented because it will greatly affect a large deal of commerce in different trades globally. We will see a rise in cost on raw and especially finished goods.
I have no wood that would be legal to sell in Europe with new rules. Nobody does. Well the crooks do. I bet China has all the proper paperwork, non legit but proper.
 

Arn213

craM de la craM # RipJack City!
Full Member
Messages
4,224
Reaction score
8,395
Location
Knickerbocker, NY
First name
Arn
It was 15/15, now you upped to 40/15 and we need a deuce! Those countries operate at very tight parameters- can you imagine your livelihood depends on certain trade and all of a sudden they ban or put a restriction? What are you suppose to do stay alive and/or feed your family?

They will come up with paper work for everything- it can be altered says them, non law abiding greedy ar$e country who has no regards for human rights and the health of our planet. We fail as human beings if we continue to support these immoral acts.
 

Arn213

craM de la craM # RipJack City!
Full Member
Messages
4,224
Reaction score
8,395
Location
Knickerbocker, NY
First name
Arn
I have no wood that would be legal to sell in Europe with new rules. Nobody does. Well the crooks do. I bet China has all the proper paperwork, non legit but proper.
No one will and Europe would be sabotaging their own commerce and the livelihood of their working citizens globally if they enact this new rule and guidelines.
 

JD1137

Member
Full Member
Messages
1,530
Reaction score
3,705
Location
Illinois
First name
John
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #25
Pivoting the conversation a bit.

I had originally asked about the Cuban Mahogany because I’m in possession of a couple slabs of Florida grown variety.

Wanted to share a couple of pics of a chest made from the same wood (made by an acquaintance not me). The sides are approximately 20” and solid pieces, not glued-up. Top (lid of chest) solid too?
Really beautiful stuff!

IMG_5362.jpeg IMG_5356.jpeg IMG_5364.jpeg
 
Last edited:

JD1137

Member
Full Member
Messages
1,530
Reaction score
3,705
Location
Illinois
First name
John
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #26
This chest was donated to a fundraiser and I understand it sold for about $6,000.
 

Nature Man

Member
Full Member
Messages
15,398
Reaction score
13,607
Location
Bulverde, TX
First name
Chuck
Pivoting the conversation a bit.

I had originally asked about the Cuban Mahogany because I’m in possession of a couple slabs of Florida grown variety.

Wanted to share a couple of pics of a chest made from the same wood (made by an acquaintance not me). The sides are approximately 20” and solid pieces, not glued-up. Top (lid of chest) solid too?
Really beautiful stuff!

View attachment 265280View attachment 265281View attachment 265282
Yeow! Absolutely gorgeous!
 

Mike1950

Founding Member
Founding Member
Full Member
Messages
28,241
Reaction score
41,546
Location
Eastern Washington
First name
Mike
No one will and Europe would be sabotaging their own commerce and the livelihood of their working citizens globally if they enact this new rule and guidelines.
You give them more credit than I do. I bet they implement.... these rules come from politicians,
 

Mike1950

Founding Member
Founding Member
Full Member
Messages
28,241
Reaction score
41,546
Location
Eastern Washington
First name
Mike
Pivoting the conversation a bit.

I had originally asked about the Cuban Mahogany because I’m in possession of a couple slabs of Florida grown variety.

Wanted to share a couple of pics of a chest made from the same wood (made by an acquaintance not me). The sides are approximately 20” and solid pieces, not glued-up. Top (lid of chest) solid too?
Really beautiful stuff!

View attachment 265280View attachment 265281View attachment 265282
Funny how everyone looks at a piece of furniture. Greene and Greene is the style (my guess). Beautiful wood and use of it. Always love the rounded edges and the ebony accents. But then I get to bottom. Never been fond of this style of base. Just seems unfinished to me. Of course probably just my bias. Everything I build i try to put style in the feet. I think Darrel Pearth ? Spelling is wrong, specializes in this style. He really has it down pat.
Someone is lucky to have it.
 

Arn213

craM de la craM # RipJack City!
Full Member
Messages
4,224
Reaction score
8,395
Location
Knickerbocker, NY
First name
Arn
Funny how everyone looks at a piece of furniture. Greene and Greene is the style (my guess). Beautiful wood and use of it. Always love the rounded edges and the ebony accents. But then I get to bottom. Never been fond of this style of base. Just seems unfinished to me. Of course probably just my bias. Everything I build i try to put style in the feet. I think Darrel Pearth ? Spelling is wrong, specializes in this style. He really has it down pat.
Someone is lucky to have it.
Good eye Mike. Greene & Greene is one of my favorite duo as Architects and Furniture maker- I have great book on them called “Greene and Greene Masterworks”. Combine style that is very Arts & Crafts & Japanese Style/joinery. Darrel Pearth is correct and he does have a book called “Greene & Greene, Design Elements in the Workshop”.

I agree that the base cradle should have been lifted off the ground by something simple like an integrated leg at the corners with “negative space at the middle section”. That is still would have been in keeping with the style of that period.
 

Mike1950

Founding Member
Founding Member
Full Member
Messages
28,241
Reaction score
41,546
Location
Eastern Washington
First name
Mike
Good eye Mike. Greene & Greene is one of my favorite duo as Architects and Furniture maker- I have great book on them called “Greene and Greene Masterworks”. Combine style that is very Arts & Crafts & Japanese Style/joinery. Darrel Pearth is correct and he does have a book called “Greene & Greene, Design Elements in the Workshop”.

I agree that the base cradle should have been lifted off the ground by something simple like an integrated leg at the corners with “negative space at the middle section”. That is still would have been in keeping with the style of that period.
Thanks, it just was not me... design is funny, too much-no. Not enough -no. But just right and the eye is happy...
One of the funnest parts of my coved boxes is design and execution of top and bottom details. Almost none are the same. Sure teaches what subtle differences can make.
 

Arn213

craM de la craM # RipJack City!
Full Member
Messages
4,224
Reaction score
8,395
Location
Knickerbocker, NY
First name
Arn
Thanks, it just was not me... design is funny, too much-no. Not enough -no. But just right and the eye is happy...
One of the funnest parts of my coved boxes is design and execution of top and bottom details. Almost none are the same. Sure teaches what subtle differences can make.
Actually, I am not as critical as you and I have become less over time as you have to remind yourself, that if you are a craftsman you would be more to have your own preference in what you “could or would have done”. That thinking only matters with peers that designs and builds, but the general public as buyers (IMHO), they don’t “sweat the small stuff” in general like we do. Perhaps a more season buyer would, but those folks usually buy a name brand for re-sale value and for investment purposes. Most would buy this- all in this case to support a good cause and whether they like it enough to own on their lifetime and/or whether it will fit the decor in their home. That is the bottom line and the fact of the matter is, as craftsmen we become more of spectators and most of the time aren’t buyers for goods like this. I am glad it sold a good amount of money going to a very good cause.

Arn
PS- My one critique is I am not fond of the black hinges- because they are generic and they are “lean” and not period correct. Wooden hinges while they are clunky would have been my choice or some kind of olive black finish brass hinge hardware.
 
Last edited:

Mike1950

Founding Member
Founding Member
Full Member
Messages
28,241
Reaction score
41,546
Location
Eastern Washington
First name
Mike
Hinges, they are self mortise hinges for dummy's, i know i have used many.
I agree most would not see. Just glaring to me. Probably because I have played with leg details so much. But perfect design and execution has a much bigger pool of buyers. And the further from perfect design and execution get, the smaller the pool gets.
But as you said earlier we could have this conversation privately, and conversation would have same amount of participants.
EDIT. Also should have something for stopping door from slamming shut on little fingers. Hinges being small, and banged open when it stops, this will be where this box fails. A lid that size is heavy. Good hinges are so expensive.
 
Last edited:

DLJeffs

Member
Full Member
Messages
5,441
Reaction score
13,159
Location
central Oregon
First name
Doug
That would have been really exceptional if they had made it look like a solid block of mahogany, ie no finger joint, no ebony accents, no handle, just one big block of that beautiful figured mahogany. I want to make an aromatic red cedar chest like that some day.
 

2feathers Creative Making

Member
Full Member
Messages
5,939
Reaction score
8,043
Location
Crossville Tennessee
First name
Frank
Actually, I am not as critical as you and I have become less over time as you have to remind yourself, that if you are a craftsman you would be more to have your own preference in what you “could or would have done”. That thinking only matters with peers that designs and builds, but the general public as buyers (IMHO), they don’t “sweat the small stuff” in general like we do. Perhaps a more season buyer would, but those folks usually buy a name brand for re-sale value and for investment purposes. Most would buy this- all in this case to support a good cause and whether they like it enough to own on their lifetime and/or whether it will fit the decor in their home. That is the bottom line and the fact of the matter is, as craftsmen we become more of spectators and most of the time aren’t buyers for goods like this. I am glad it sold a good amount of money going to a very good cause.

Arn
PS- My one critique is I am not fond of the black hinges- because they are generic and they are “lean” and not period correct. Wooden hinges while they are clunky would have been my choice or some kind of olive black finish brass hinge hardware.
I have a hinge fetish. I love a good hinge. And yes, those are not great fetish worthy hinges. I am still a basic box builder so I have not yet begun to critique these things from a viewpoint of what I would have done better.
I appreciate "listening " to this type discussion to learn stuff that would take years of screwing stuff up to reach the same understanding.
 

Mike1950

Founding Member
Founding Member
Full Member
Messages
28,241
Reaction score
41,546
Location
Eastern Washington
First name
Mike
I have a hinge fetish. I love a good hinge. And yes, those are not great fetish worthy hinges. I am still a basic box builder so I have not yet begun to critique these things from a viewpoint of what I would have done better.
I appreciate "listening " to this type discussion to learn stuff that would take years of screwing stuff up to reach the same understanding.
Same here, those self mortise hinges are easy and cheap. I traded some wood for a whole box of spendy hinges of different types. all high end. They are so much nicer but so spendy.
 
Top