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Rubio-like finish from scratch

Great looking spatula!

I probably wasn't clear in my comments - but I agree and my goal is maximizing penetration (thus dilution). For an oil-finish, I want little/no surface film, I'm only trying to bring out the wood characteristics as much as possible - and to add some durability with a drying oil like tung.
Yeah, you and everyone else hate film finishes lol. Maybe it's because I'm a newb, but i have an unusually high interest in film finishes, especially gloss finishes. My finish of choice (for non- kitchen items) is arm-r-seal gloss. I use it constantly. And I often do high builds with it with wet sanding just like it did with the polymerized tung. I just like the glass look, and i like the chatouyance an oil varnish provides. That's probably why I simultaneously got into epoxy over the last year. Though I find epoxy much more challenging and expensive. It's much easier to build thickness, but it's so much more finicky than a wood finish.

Normally when I use tung, I'm using it at a base coat diluted with orange solvent. I find myself using odies oil a lot, so lately I do 1-2 coats of diluted tung, then 2 coats odies hitting it with 4k on the orbital in between. I only tried to build up tung to a film the one time. I was just saying the theory is there that you should be able to build up any curing oil given enough time and patience lol. Not saying it's wise or that anyone should try. I was only noting my observation that the cured film must be able to be layered to the point of building a film finish. It might look like sh!t or maybe it'll look like my spoon and spatula. Who knows. I tried it the one time with polymerized tung and that was enough for me. It was a lot of work.

I'm surprised to see SW noted in that Flexner article. That oil seems to be like a unicorn in woodworking. Nobody ever knows about it or more broadly about polymerized tung. I just assumed it was a niche market. I guess now I should finally read that Flexner book on finishing that I bought a couple months back 🤔
 
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  • #22
I see the thread is alive so I add little update to my orginal post.
First: the part B of rubio’s finish is polymeric isocyanate based on its CAS number.
Isocyanates are reactive chemicals that easily form bonds with other components.
Tung oil, linseed oil and others are fatty acids in general. Acids reacts with isocyanates forming amides, so our polyisocyanate will crosslink the oil and technically this should occur even without oxygen present.
Obviosly that polymerization process may or may not produce suitable hard finish.
In my attempts, it took few days for tung oil to get hard, linseed oil was faster but the solid produced was gummy.
My both oils were bought from chemical supplier for laboratory use so could not be the best material for woodworking.

I’m wondering, since the drying oils react with oxygen and then crosslink, would it be possible to speed up the oxidation process by using peroxides (e.g. hydrogen peroxide, benzoyl peroxide, urea peroxide, etc…) or simple UV lamp that will generate ozone in situ.

Again, I feel those “experiments” may cost more than buying the commercial product.
 
I see the thread is alive so I add little update to my orginal post.
First: the part B of rubio’s finish is polymeric isocyanate based on its CAS number.
Isocyanates are reactive chemicals that easily form bonds with other components.
Tung oil, linseed oil and others are fatty acids in general. Acids reacts with isocyanates forming amides, so our polyisocyanate will crosslink the oil and technically this should occur even without oxygen present.
Obviosly that polymerization process may or may not produce suitable hard finish.
In my attempts, it took few days for tung oil to get hard, linseed oil was faster but the solid produced was gummy.
My both oils were bought from chemical supplier for laboratory use so could not be the best material for woodworking.

I’m wondering, since the drying oils react with oxygen and then crosslink, would it be possible to speed up the oxidation process by using peroxides (e.g. hydrogen peroxide, benzoyl peroxide, urea peroxide, etc…) or simple UV lamp that will generate ozone in situ.

Again, I feel those “experiments” may cost more than buying the commercial product.
Thanks for the info.

I wonder why we had such different experiences with tung. I monitored my test pieces, and they did not cure in a few days. It took nearly a month. The tung + rubio may have been ahead of the raw tung oil in terms of curing, but it was only by a few days if so. Both the raw oil and oil + rubio part b took nearly a month to harden. It was a markedly longer period than the rubio mixed with linseed or walnut oils. The polymerized tung took maybe 2-3 weeks, but that is typical for polymerized tung, so the rubio did little to help that cure too.

My goal for doing these tests isn't to save money over brand names. I was mostly interest in finding an accelerator for tung. I dislike linseed oil, but that's such a common base oil in these proprietary finishes. I only branched out from tung out of curiosity. That said, money isn't really an object for me. I've purchased all kinds of finishes, many of which I've yet to use.

I actually have 35% food grade hydrogen peroxide that I'd planed to use to bleach wood along with lye, but I haven't used it at all yet. So if you want to provide direction I can test your hypothesis.

Likewise, I have many (low powered) UV light sources in the 365-405nm range, because i dabble with UV resin. If any old UV light will create ozone, I should have enough of them in aggregate to approximate a moderately high powered UV cure light. Im actually going to be mounting them all in a makeshift "cure chamber" lined with mirrors for use with UV resin, but it sounds like this chamber might work for these oils too based on what you're saying.
 
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Yeah, you and everyone else hate film finishes lol.
It depends on the project, but for some I definitely like glossy, built-up finishes. When I want that, I use a product for that rather than tung (or sometimes over tung once fully cured).

One thing you'll get from Flexner is his contention that we're way too worried about "food safe finishes" - specifically that pretty much every finish is food safe once cured.
 
It depends on the project, but for some I definitely like glossy, built-up finishes. When I want that, I use a product for that rather than tung (or sometimes over tung once fully cured).

One thing you'll get from Flexner is his contention that we're way too worried about "food safe finishes" - specifically that pretty much every finish is food safe once cured.
Yeah, I wouldn't normally try to use a curing oil as a film finish. It's just that it was for cooking utensils and i also just wanted to test out the claim that polymerized tung can be built up. I had read that somewhere online and wanted to try it out to see if it was legit.

I too am generally in the same boat about food safety. The serving board i made my wife is topcoated with arm-r-seal. I have no qualms about placing food on it. I do draw the line with cutting surfaces and utensils that get exposed to heat and abrasion. I just think it's better to be safe than sorry and just stick to curing oils with those.
 
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  • #26
Thanks for the info.

I wonder why we had such different experiences with tung. I monitored my test pieces, and they did not cure in a few days. It took nearly a month. The tung + rubio may have been ahead of the raw tung oil in terms of curing, but it was only by a few days if so. Both the raw oil and oil + rubio part b took nearly a month to harden. It was a markedly longer period than the rubio mixed with linseed or walnut oils. The polymerized tung took maybe 2-3 weeks, but that is typical for polymerized tung, so the rubio did little to help that cure too.

My goal for doing these tests isn't to save money over brand names. I was mostly interest in finding an accelerator for tung. I dislike linseed oil, but that's such a common base oil in these proprietary finishes. I only branches out from tung out of curiosity. That said, money isn't really an object for me. I've purchased all kinds of finishes, many of which I've yet to use.

I actually have 35% food grade hydrogen peroxide that I'd planed to use to bleach wood along with lye, but I haven't used it at all yet. So if you want to provide direction I can test your hypothesis.

Likewise, I have many (low powered) UV light sources in the 365-405nm range, because i dabble with UV resin. If any old UV light will create ozone, I should have enough of them in aggregate to approximate a moderately high powered UV cure light. Im actually going to be mounting them all in a makeshift "cure chamber" lined with mirrors for use with UV resin, but it sounds like this chamber might work for these oils too based on what you're saying.
Nice set of experiments. >30% hydrogen peroxide is a good start. I wouldn’t use more diluted version to avoid unnecessary water. Maybe start with 1:10 ratio (peroxide:oil).
Hydrogen peroxide solutions are not stable and decompose quickly in the presence of metal ions.

Also, combination of UV + peroxide is worth trying.
 
Nice set of experiments. >30% hydrogen peroxide is a good start. I wouldn’t use more diluted version to avoid unnecessary water. Maybe start with 1:10 ratio (peroxide:oil).
Hydrogen peroxide solutions are not stable and decompose quickly in the presence of metal ions.

Also, combination of UV + peroxide is worth trying.
OK, Ill give the peroxide a try. Should it be assumed that the bleaching properties of hydrogen peroxide would still be of concern? In other words, you couldn't use this solution on wood without consideration for the potential effects the peroxide might have on the wood?
 
Some extra read about tung oil polymerization under UV.
That is wild. It sounds like it behaves almost the same as UV resin. I was not expecting the cure time to be in minutes!

I'm unable to see the full article without access. Do you have the article? And if so, could you tell me the wavelength of UV radiation used and the power output of the source?

This article is exclusively investigating the UV curing properties of tung. Could this be extrapolated to other curing oils, or is this a property unique to tung oil?
 
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  • #30
OK, Ill give the peroxide a try. Should it be assumed that the bleaching properties of hydrogen peroxide would still be of concern? In other words, you couldn't use this solution on wood without consideration for the potential effects the peroxide might have on the wood?
Yes, I would be concerned with peroxides bleaching the wood. That’s definitely a drawback, especially for darker or colored species.
 
Yes, I would be concerned with peroxides bleaching the wood. That’s definitely a drawback, especially for darker or colored species.
Interestingly it might prove beneficial to lighter colored woods. I had been planning to test some bleach on both maple and holly with some green streaks to see if I can lighten them. If peroxide lightens those woods and also serves to help cure tung, maybe a tung/peroxide finish will be well suited for those species.
 
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  • #32
That is wild. It sounds like it behaves almost the same as UV resin. I was not expecting the cure time to be in minutes!

I'm unable to see the full article without access. Do you have the article? And if so, could you tell me the wavelength of UV radiation used and the power output of the source?

This article is exclusively investigating the UV curing properties of tung. Could this be extrapolated to other curing oils, or is this a property unique to tung oil?
Unfortunately, I don’t have access to full article so can’t help with the UV wavelength. I would assume something like 395 nm but can’t guarantee. Let me check if I can find absorption spectra for tung oil.

However, the power is probably more important, can’t imagine tiny lamp will do much even with the right wavelength.

In general all liquid oils have unsaturated, double bonds that can be polymerized, whether it’s easy, that’s a different question.
Often those processes require a radical initiator.
Again, I think it’s fun experiment to try
 
Unfortunately, I don’t have access to full article so can’t help with the UV wavelength. I would assume something like 395 nm but can’t guarantee. Let me check if I can find absorption spectra for tung oil.

However, the power is probably more important, can’t imagine tiny lamp will do much even with the right wavelength.

In general all liquid oils have unsaturated, double bonds that can be polymerized, whether it’s easy, that’s a different question.
Often those processes require a radical initiator.
Again, I think it’s fun experiment to try
OK, then Ill just have to try them all 😁 I keep forgetting I got a 30 pack of petri dishes, so I'll use those this time around instead of the plastic packaging for a circ saw blade:lol2:

I cant seem to bring myself to pay the exorbitant cost of a high output UV light such as that used to cure Clean Armor. Instead I've just amassed a collection of low power LED UV lights via Temu and Amazon Vine. I have strips, bars, and a couple panels up to 50W. Most are 385-405nm, but I have 1-2 that are 365nm. I've heard LED UV lights do not work as well for curing. Its been my experience that UV resin takes a good 10min to 'cure' under the 50W UV panel I have. It gets about 95% there in 3-5min, but it needs like 5 more minutes to get to 98%. It doesn't ever feel like its at 100% unless I let it sit for days (with only whatever secondary UV exposure is provided by my shop lighting and indirect sunlight exposure). This is why Ive been planning to build a curing chamber. I want to mount all the UV lights I have inside this chamber and cover the rest of the surface with acrylic mirrors. I already have all the materials, I just need to do it. My hope is that the sum total of all UV output will at least approach the output of one of those expensive high output UV lights.
 
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  • #34
Seems like you are determined this to work.
Enjoy the tinkering with your set up.

You may consider photo initiators in your experiments. One that come to my mind is this one, but not sure if you can buy it.
 
That is wild. It sounds like it behaves almost the same as UV resin. I was not expecting the cure time to be in minutes!

I'm unable to see the full article without access. Do you have the article? And if so, could you tell me the wavelength of UV radiation used and the power output of the source?

This article is exclusively investigating the UV curing properties of tung. Could this be extrapolated to other curing oils, or is this a property unique to tung oil?
I was able to open the article okay. Try this.
 
Seems like you are determined this to work.
Enjoy the tinkering with your set up.

You may consider photo initiators in your experiments. One that come to my mind is this one, but not sure if you can buy it.
Oh yeah. I love testing things and understanding how things work. I'm an engineer by profession, so its in my DNA ha ha I will absolutely test out both hydrogen peroxide and UV light curing.

As for photo initiators or other less common curing agents, I'm less likely to go down that path without having more knowledge about the component in question. I dont know anything about photo initiators - their safety, their volatility, systemic and physiological effects resulting from exposure, etc. I know metals like cobalt need to be handled with care since they've been around for ages. The chemical in Rubio part B is foreign to me, but it's part of a very popular wood finish. Its also listed in 21 CFR 175.300, and Rubio monocoat has a bunch of EU safety certs. So I've justified its use in my testing.
 
Looking forward to following along.

If you use 10:1 oil to peroxide, at 3-3.5% I dont think you'll see much wood bleaching - maybe a slight lightening. Will be interested to see.
 
I was able to open the article okay. Try this.
The link is active, but the full article is not there. About mid-way down the page it says "Check access to the full text by signing in through your organization". Its largely just Abstract, Intro, and Conclusions that's available to the public, and those sections do not detail the specs on the UV light source.

Its not critical anyway. No UV light source is a fixed wavelength; its a spectrum with peak occurring at the stated wavelength. Moreover, the ideal wavelength for curing only means that curing is most efficient at that wavelength. It doesn't mean that the finish will not cure at all using other UV wavelengths. More broadly, staying within the UV-A range should cure any UV-cured finish eventually.

As @Chemistry Fan noted, the output of the UV source is most important. If you try to cure UV resin with a 5W UV light strip, it'll never cure. It'll be weeks before it even starts to thicken, and by then the indirect UV exposure from the environment will probably have done more to aid in curing anyway. Ive been looking into sourcing an old incandescent UV bulb instead of dealing with these low power junk LEDs. Seems like most of the conventional bulbs don't provide wavelength specs though.
 
Looking forward to following along.

If you use 10:1 oil to peroxide, at 3-3.5% I dont think you'll see much wood bleaching - maybe a slight lightening. Will be interested to see.
I cant remember if it was peroxide or oxcalic acid or some other wood bleach, but one of them really only acts on tannins in wood (it doesn't otherwise bleach the wood). I am leaning towards this being peroxide since I know that peroxide is used to get tannin stains from coffee out of carpet. My dad forced me into figuring that one out when he knocked his coffee mug over onto our brand new rug :-| If true, then not all species will respond to peroxide exposure.
 
I attempted the peroxide mix tonight. Peroxide is lipophobic, so it wouldn't mix. I tried essentially whipping it up until I'd more or less atomized the peroxide in the oil. It just looks like cloudy oil. I don't think this is going to work though. I put some in a petri dish and put the rest on some offcuts of maple, holly (with slight spalting), leopard wood, east Indian rosewood, purple heart, padauk, verawood, sapele, canary wood, and teak. By the time I left my shop, none of the test pieces had changed color at all, at least not for the lighter. It of course darkened from the oil.
 
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