Rules discussion

[Nature Man]

It would be very easy to change the culture of WB, by initiating changes that encourage more sellers to the forum. In the midst of pondering this possible shift, perhaps it wise to evaluate the temporal nature of members. Most new members do not stay with us for long. Are the ones who depart dissatisfied with the lack of sellers, or the lack of available wood? I stick around more for the comraderie myself, and to learn from more experienced woodworkers. I’ve not sold anything myself on WB, but I have on occasion bought wood, tools, accessories, supplies, and finished items. My reason for staying with WB is not predicated on the number of sellers of wood. One of the things I do appreciate about WB is that most members that sell wood are not in it to scalp the other members. It really irritates me when I see wood prices that are unreasonable for the average woodworker. It really encourages me when I see the “B” in WB taking place. Now, I will say that I’ve witnessed on several occasions over the past decade plus that I’ve been an active member, new aspiring members with wood for sale have been basically run off, and in some cases harshly. We absolutely should remain professional with prospective new members. But we should retain the right to terminate any member immediately that abuses the tenets of good faith in their sales. We should also retain the right to terminate any member that is overly caustic to other members (seen that, too). So, is the real issue the number of sellers on the forum? I rest my case. Chuck

 

[Mike1950]

I haven't been a member here as long as most of you. But here's my thoughts.
1. It is called Wood Barter - A Place for Woodworkers. But the key word to me is "barter", which to me means trading, selling, swapping, etc. So to say the forum is intended to primarily be a site for showing woodworking projects seems to contradict the name. Perhaps a change of name or a clear explanation of the purpose of the site in the header is worthwhile. Something like "The Woodworker Place" would more accurately send the message that the site is primarily for displaying woodworking projects, soliciting advice, asking for help, etc. Another simple change would be to move the "For Sale, Trade, Buy" section to the bottom of the list.
2. I like being able to buy specific, specially selected pieces of wood from safe reliable sellers. I like being able to buy small quantities since I only make small, singular projects (as opposed to producing mass quantities). I like being able to find wood I can't easily find on other wood sites. That said, I have no problem with people wanting to buy large quantities of blanks. But personally I'd prefer not to see this site be swarmed with for sale ads by lumber yards. Nor by ads for common, non-unique wood, such as construction lumber, flooring, decking, etc. Having to sort through those ads to find the special, small pieces of wood would harm the experience in my opinion.
3. The weakness of emails, texts, and written replies is they can sometimes not come across as the writer intends. The tone of voice is lost, etc. So anyone replying to a post needs to be aware of that and re-read their text with that concern in mind before posting. I don't think any Mods here would purposefully send a rude or contentious reply (except those with an undertone of humor of course).

1. Nobody will agree to name change-JMO
2. FB groups I admin- we limit listings to 3 a day, otherwise they flood the group.
I seriously doubt any real lumberyards will be posting...

 

[DLJeffs]

1. Nobody will agree to name change-JMO
2. FB groups I admin- we limit listings to 3 a day, otherwise they flood the group.
I seriously doubt any real lumberyards will be posting...

Yeah, I agree about the name thing and actually wouldn't want to see it change. Name recognition / brand recognition / whatever you call it is important. But it does connotate the site as being primarily for selling, trading and buying.

 

[Mike1950]

It would be very easy to change the culture of WB, by initiating changes that encourage more sellers to the forum. In the midst of pondering this possible shift, perhaps it wise to evaluate the temporal nature of members. Most new members do not stay with us for long. Are the ones who depart dissatisfied with the lack of sellers, or the lack of available wood? I stick around more for the comraderie myself, and to learn from more experienced woodworkers. I’ve not sold anything myself on WB, but I have on occasion bought wood, tools, accessories, supplies, and finished items. My reason for staying with WB is not predicated on the number of sellers of wood. One of the things I do appreciate about WB is that most members that sell wood are not in it to scalp the other members. It really irritates me when I see wood prices that are unreasonable for the average woodworker. It really encourages me when I see the “B” in WB taking place. Now, I will say that I’ve witnessed on several occasions over the past decade plus that I’ve been an active member, new aspiring members with wood for sale have been basically run off, and in some cases harshly. We absolutely should remain professional with prospective new members. But we should retain the right to terminate any member immediately that abuses the tenets of good faith in their sales. We should also retain the right to terminate any member that is overly caustic to other members (seen that, too). So, is the real issue the number of sellers on the forum? I rest my case. Chuck

"It really irritates me when I see wood prices that are unreasonable for the average woodworker." It is an open market- if prices are too high- they do not sell-too low- they sell fast. It has absolutely nothing to do with what the average woodworker can buy. JMO
Barter- I have had great buying and selling experience here since 12/2011. Maybe I have had good trades but the bad ones stick in my craw. I do not usually agree to trade. There is no rule that insists on trading.
I 100% agree on treating new members /sellers with a different attitude. Recent person might not make anything out of the wood but planting, growing and harvesting takes a dedication that few of us have. I have been an advocate of this for a very long time. Sellers of nice timber at good prices attract buyers, buyers stay and contribute to forum with the hope of finding more good timber. It is the open market-it works. PS. sexist remarks should receive a reprimand.
All that said- I for one do not want to see the humor-banter-outright craziness go away. There are quite a few here-including mods that know they can say almost anything to me and at worst get Clyde. That has been such a stress relief in last year that I want to thank all of you for the old guy insults/banter, it has put a smile on my face when I needed one. Thanks

 

[Mike1950]

Yeah, I agree about the name thing and actually wouldn't want to see it change. Name recognition / brand recognition / whatever you call it is important. But it does connotate the site as being primarily for selling, trading and buying.

Absolutely- and if I remember right, we started as primarily a sales trade site and evolved into woodworker site. Most of the original members- many gone, flocked here from WWT. a woodworker site that got bought out and immediately got flooded with advertising, some not in good tastes. It was a hilarious group- Roy(the pine hater)- Tom (Sean)- hammering on Teds woodworking plans and so on.

 

[SENC]

My bet is this will sort itself out pretty quickly. Most buyers here are looking for special woods in small quantities. Any high volume/lumber type sellers that sign up won't stay for long. But I can think of a number of FB sellers of specialty woods that may find a market here for some of their offerings - and who may end up contributing in other ways once in the community. It seems fairly low risk to me, in the long run. The storefront concept, if the forum offers it, seems ideal. Sellers who want to maintain a storefront with offerings pay for the storefront, and they (and anyone else) can otherwise post in all general forums, including the for sale subforum. Limiting daily/weekly posts to the for sale subforum should keep discourage sales-only oriented members from abusing that open area and sidestepping the storefront membership. A simple automated message that someone has reached their 2/3/4/5 for sale posting per week limit and reminding them of the storefront membership option should be enough to either encourage paying up or moving on.

 

[woodtickgreg]

I do understand what you guys are saying about how to treat new members. I'm guilty of that as charged. But let me explain this, a rule is a rule and I try to nip it right from the get go before it gets out of hand. Same as a gaging interest thread. I have been harsh in the past, called out on it before and I apologized and did my best to correct myself. We are all human, not perfect, and we make mistakes. But trust me when I say all I care about is this forums well being and that has always been that way. I was under the impression that Kevin did not want just sellers on this site, and that was wrong. Once I had admin privileges I had the ability to go back through old admin discussions. I read one where Kevin said he had made a mistake by excluding just sellers, he's human, made a mistake. And that's when he started a discussion with the admins about ways to implement just sellers so that it did not become a free for all and tarnish the site because he saw how great it had become. Talks of a store where started but never really went anywhere before his passing. So the current administration is left with the task of fixing this in a way that benefits all members here. Be patient folks, we do appreciate all of your input good or bad. We are taking notes and working on this. Marc and I both have daytime jobs so its going to take some time, I can check in more often because I'm a truck driver and get time when I'm on a dock.
I also want to say that if I have been harsh with new members or made mistakes with treatment of members I truly am sorry for that and I will work to improve on that. It's tough to be politically correct when you've become old and grumpy. Thanks for listening.
Greg

 

[Mike1950]

I do understand what you guys are saying about how to treat new members. I'm guilty of that as charged. But let me explain this, a rule is a rule and I try to nip it right from the get go before it gets out of hand. Same as a gaging interest thread. I have been harsh in the past, called out on it before and I apologized and did my best to correct myself. We are all human, not perfect, and we make mistakes. But trust me when I say all I care about is this forums well being and that has always been that way. I was under the impression that Kevin did not want just sellers on this site, and that was wrong. Once I had admin privileges I had the ability to go back through old admin discussions. I read one where Kevin said he had made a mistake by excluding just sellers, he's human, made a mistake. And that's when he started a discussion with the admins about ways to implement just sellers so that it did not become a free for all and tarnish the site because he saw how great it had become. Talks of a store where started but never really went anywhere before his passing. So the current administration is left with the task of fixing this in a way that benefits all members here. Be patient folks, we do appreciate all of your input good or bad. We are taking notes and working on this. Marc and I both have daytime jobs so its gking to take some time, I can check in more often because I'm a truck driver and get time when I'm on a dock.
I also want to say that if I have been harsh with new members or made mistakes with treatment of members I truly am sorry for that and I will work to improve on that. It's tough to be politically correct when you've become old and grumpy. Thanks for listening.
Greg

Ya just gotta find your inner Clyde, many are available.
Kidding aside. I know none of this is easy. I appreciate your frankness.

 

[phinds]

I do understand what you guys are saying about how to treat new members. I'm guilty of that as charged. But let me explain this, a rule is a rule and I try to nip it right from the get go before it gets out of hand.

+1 on that --- me too

It's tough to be politically correct when you've become old and grumpy.

+1 on that --- me too

 

[Tony]

+1 on that --- me too

+1 on that --- me too

WHAT????
Not you Paul!!!

 

[shadetree_1]

I talked with kevin a lot when WB first started, we talked at length about me selling wood, because I don't and haven't had a lathe in years, the only wood working I do now is with a chainsaw, I sell to give folks nice wood at what I think are reasonable prices and to supplement my Social Security, so if you all think I abuse that, please say so and I'll bow out !
I don't want to leave because I have enjoyed the comradery with all of you I have delt with, I've been here a long time, and I'd be very, very sad to go, but seems like some are leaning towards cutting down or out the folks who sell and don't do wood working, if that's the case, I am sorry !
Joe

 

[2feathers Creative Making]

I talked with kevin a lot when WB first started, we talked at length about me selling wood, because I don't and haven't had a lathe in years, the only wood working I do now is with a chainsaw, I sell to give folks nice wood at what I think are reasonable prices and to supplement my Social Security, so if you all think I abuse that, please say so and I'll bow out !
I don't want to leave because I have enjoyed the comradery with all of you I have delt with, I've been here a long time, and I'd be very, very sad to go, but seems like some are leaning towards cutting down or out the folks who sell and don't do wood working, if that's the case, I am sorry !
Joe

Personally, I figure you have paid your dues on woodworking and have a smidgen or even a bit more than a smidgen of information to pass on to the next generation of woodworkers. Besides the access to some multiple tons of diw would be severely limited if you walk away now...

 

[Tony]

I talked with kevin a lot when WB first started, we talked at length about me selling wood, because I don't and haven't had a lathe in years, the only wood working I do now is with a chainsaw, I sell to give folks nice wood at what I think are reasonable prices and to supplement my Social Security, so if you all think I abuse that, please say so and I'll bow out !
I don't want to leave because I have enjoyed the comradery with all of you I have delt with, I've been here a long time, and I'd be very, very sad to go, but seems like some are leaning towards cutting down or out the folks who sell and don't do wood working, if that's the case, I am sorry !
Joe

I for one Joe do NOT wish to see you go.

 

[Nature Man]

Please stay and sell more phenomenal wood! Your heart is in the right place, and your wood speaks for itself. Chuck

 

[vegas urban lumber]

i have always assumed that wood barter would be a much less desirable place for most of us, if:

1. commercial sellers were to flood the site with the kind of things that were readily available in lumber/specialty wood stores.

2. there was not a wide variety of oddities brought to market here by individuals from all over the world.
especially the kind of desirable things that guys like @shadetree_1 offer.

if i can't find it in a store readily, i think wood barter is a good place for it

 

[woodtickgreg]

Here lies the hard part. How to allow sellers only but not commercial sellers. People sell here for free but do not contribute to the site. How not to turn this place into ebay. Us admins and mods are trying to figure this out. We are not coming down as hard as we have in the past with just sellers here so the rest of the folks on the site have a good choice of wood to purchase. But we also don't want one or a couple of people just dominating the wood for sale threads, that's not fair to the folks that just have a couple of items for sale. So we keep learning and trying things and we appreciate everyone's input and ideas.

 

[Nature Man]

In the specific case of Joe, I’ve been to his place and can vouch that he is not a commercial seller. He does have access to wood species that are not readily available elsewhere. And there is a reasonable demand on WB for his offerings. Joe is also one of the longest term members of WB, which in itself speaks volumes in contrast to some folks that join to make a fast buck from the WB membership. Chuck

 

[vegas urban lumber]

In the specific case of Joe, I’ve been to his place and can vouch that he is not a commercial seller. He does have access to wood species that are not readily available elsewhere. And there is a reasonable demand on WB for his offerings. Joe is also one of the longest term members of WB, which in itself speaks volumes in contrast to some folks that join to make a fast buck from the WB membership. Chuck

absolutely agree

 

[phinds]

I have been as guilty as anyone in "blasting" folks whom I perceived as "only sellers" and it seems I have forgotten Kevin's being open to them, even if we never got to the point of deciding how to best handle it. I'll try to be more open to that in the future.

I DO try to be even handed and I don't mind folks who primarily sell but who also do participate the in rest of WB. For example, here's a PM I sent to a member a few years back

-------------

Some time back I mildly blasted you for being here for nothing but selling. I was in a foul mood and particularly incensed that, in my mind, you and a few others, were here only to sell, not to participate. I buttressed my belief with a search of a couple of pages of your most recent posts (at that time) and felt that my opinion was solidly born out.

It's clear to me now that I caught you at a particular time when you were doing pretty much nothing but selling, but that that was not really an accurate reflection of your participation. You ARE, as you have stated yourself, here mostly to sell, but you are also a participant in the community.

SO ... my apologies for my hasty overreaction to a somewhat limited set of data.

 

[Steve in VA]

Here lies the hard part. How to allow sellers only but not commercial sellers. People sell here for free but do not contribute to the site. How not to turn this place into ebay. Us admins and mods are trying to figure this out. We are not coming down as hard as we have in the past with just sellers here so the rest of the folks on the site have a good choice of wood to purchase. But we also don't want one or a couple of people just dominating the wood for sale threads, that's not fair to the folks that just have a couple of items for sale. So we keep learning and trying things and we appreciate everyone's input and ideas.

In my opinion you and the others are doing a fantastic job of striking a good balance between the extremes. Thank you all for putting in the time you do to make, and keep, this site a wonderful community!