Vacuum Stabilization

[BangleGuy]

Here is a plot of %MC vs time for Maple, Purpleheart, Leopardwood and Bocote samples which were both stabilized and unstabilized. The samples were placed in a humidity chamber with 90%RH for 170 hours. In each case, except Bocote, the stabilized blanks performed better. The difference between Bocote samples was insignificant.

[attachment=3617]

 

[davidgiul]

Here is a plot of %MC vs time for Maple, Purpleheart, Leopardwood and Bocote samples which were both stabilized and unstabilized. The samples were placed in a humidity chamber with 90%RH for 170 hours. In each case, except Bocote, the stabilized blanks performed better. The difference between Bocote samples was insignificant.

Bangleguy,
The graph is well done and I enjoy the fruits of your research. It shows me several things:
1) Some species of wood are impervious to treatment.
2) Wood will reach an equilibrium with its' environment even if it is kiln dried to 6-8% MC regardless of the treatment.

Dave

 

[Kevin]

I couldn't stand it. I went to WSSI's site and found the answer. Makes sense to me, and validates my last guess about where the water is being absorbed, and where it isn't. This is what I felt was the most relevant part . . .


...Stabilized wood will take in moisture by capillary action much like steel wool is waterproof but will absorb water like a sponge. If you put a block of stabilized wood in water, it will become saturated in a few hours. The actual fibers are dry but the spaces will pick up moisture. If you lay the wood on a workbench, the water will leak out overnight and the piece will be dry again tomorrow...



This is the page I took the quote from. It doesn't answer everything but it solves the issue enough for me.





.

 

[BangleGuy]

Here is a good article on water repellency and wood stability put together by the US Forest Service. I am still working my way through the information, but the paper covers the subject well.

[attachment=3630]

 

[BangleGuy]

Here is the latest plot from this weekends stabilizing. Just to keep the thread going :wacko1: (Oh, the Ebony is Macassar, And there is no point in stabilizing African Blackwood or Cocobolo as they are like Kingwood in not gaining weight, and the internal oils don't mix well with the resin. ) Enjoy.

[attachment=3822]
[attachment=3823]

 

[TurnTex]

Here is the latest plot from this weekends stabilizing. Just to keep the thread going :wacko1: (Oh, the Ebony is Macassar, And there is no point in stabilizing African Blackwood or Cocobolo as they are like Kingwood in not gaining weight, and the internal oils don't mix well with the resin. ) Enjoy.

Looks about what I would expect on the denser woods. I have done a lot of testing with Texas woods but not any of the exotics. Are you really only getting a 50+% increase in weight on the spalted maple? I have other customers who are reporting as much as a 300% weight gain on spalted maple. I have not done spalted maple since it is not native here but I have done a lot of spalted hackberry and spalted pecan and both of those are almost always over a 100% weight gain.

What were your beginning and ending weights?

 

[davidgiul]

Here is the latest plot from this weekends stabilizing. Just to keep the thread going :wacko1: (Oh, the Ebony is Macassar, And there is no point in stabilizing African Blackwood or Cocobolo as they are like Kingwood in not gaining weight, and the internal oils don't mix well with the resin. ) Enjoy.

Bangleguy has shown in his graphs that some woods do not absorb any stabilizing agents. I often read about "stabilized" knife scales and pen blanks for exotic woods that are impervious to treatments. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems that trying to stabilize a wood that is listed as impervious is a waste of money and is an advertising gimmick unless the wood has gone punk. Any thoughts on this observation?

Dave

 

[jxmcguire1]

Here is a good article on water repellency and wood stability put together by the US Forest Service. I am still working my way through the information, but the paper covers the subject well.

Downloaded the publication and read about half way through. As soon as I finish, guess the next thing is to go through again, a little slower, try some of the formulae to see if it makes sense to me. I suspect that the multiple absorbancy mechanisms at play are dominant causes in different regimes or conditions, and that the range of conditions for some of the effects to occur will seldom occur in the fine woodworking field. I'll probably have to get my eyes on some of the listed reference documents to actually have a little confidence in my view of it though.

I'm playing with a digital camera now with a microscope to see if the pictures reveal anything useful about the microstructures (grain, curl, pore spaces, and such) in different species of wood. I think it would be interesting and maybe informative to look at thin sections of different woods, with and without resin stabilization, especially to see the depth and extent of pore filling under different treatment conditions.

 

[BangleGuy]

Here is the latest plot from this weekends stabilizing. Just to keep the thread going :wacko1: (Oh, the Ebony is Macassar, And there is no point in stabilizing African Blackwood or Cocobolo as they are like Kingwood in not gaining weight, and the internal oils don't mix well with the resin. ) Enjoy.

Bangleguy has shown in his graphs that some woods do not absorb any stabilizing agents. I often read about "stabilized" knife scales and pen blanks for exotic woods that are impervious to treatments. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems that trying to stabilize a wood that is listed as impervious is a waste of money and is an advertising gimmick unless the wood has gone punk. Any thoughts on this observation?

Dave

Dave, I actually fudged my data for the Kingwood as the measurements indicated the samples actually lost 0.1% weight! This may be a scale accuracy thing though, so I altered the data slightly (-0.1% to + 0.1%). I will post my actual weights tonight.

The Kingwood really could have lost weight as there was a significant amount of purple tree oil coming out of the wood during the vacuum process (making my cactus juice purple). All of my samples (bangle blanks) were baked at 200F for two hours prior to stabilizing. Interesting to note that the Kingwood and Cocobolo had tree resin (sap) seeping from pores and dried on the surface of the wood (after the pre-bake step). I scraped this dried stuff off prior to stabilizing.

Next on my list is to cure a cup of cactus juice and run a water absorption test on dried resin alone. My guess is that the resin will gain weight too (just as all plastics are somewhat porous). We need to remember that a water molecule is only 2.75 angstroms in diameter! That is SMALL! :wacko1:

In an earlier post, Rick talked about adding Japan drier to his stabilizing of Cocobolo. In all of my tests, Cocobolo has shown to be extremely dimensionally stable and not really needing to be stabilized. I would add African Blackwood and Bocote to this list. Jury is still out on Kingwood.

More to come...

 

[BangleGuy]

Here is the latest plot from this weekends stabilizing. Just to keep the thread going :wacko1: (Oh, the Ebony is Macassar, And there is no point in stabilizing African Blackwood or Cocobolo as they are like Kingwood in not gaining weight, and the internal oils don't mix well with the resin. ) Enjoy.

Looks about what I would expect on the denser woods. I have done a lot of testing with Texas woods but not any of the exotics. Are you really only getting a 50+% increase in weight on the spalted maple? I have other customers who are reporting as much as a 300% weight gain on spalted maple. I have not done spalted maple since it is not native here but I have done a lot of spalted hackberry and spalted pecan and both of those are almost always over a 100% weight gain.

What were your beginning and ending weights?

Curtis, I reviewed the numbers and I had an error which I corrected in the plot. The Spalted Maple is over 100%. Thanks.

 

[brown down]

i contacted curtis last night, what a great guy to talk to and very very informative, prior to reading this thread! unfortunately i need a larger capacity vacuum chamber and wonder if anyone has any thought as to this design, pressure cooker converted to a vacuum chamber??? that way i can fit bowl size pieces in the chamber? any thoughts
http://thegreatgeekery.blogspot.com/2011/05/pressure-cooker-vacuum-chamber.html

 

[BangleGuy]

i contacted curtis last night, what a great guy to talk to and very very informative, prior to reading this thread! unfortunately i need a larger capacity vacuum chamber and wonder if anyone has any thought as to this design, pressure cooker converted to a vacuum chamber??? that way i can fit bowl size pieces in the chamber? any thoughts
http://thegreatgeekery.blogspot.com/2011/05/pressure-cooker-vacuum-chamber.html

There are some ebay postings for vacuum chambers that look interesting too...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-chamber-VAC-IT-PRO-degasing-urethanes-etc-/190668175608?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item2c64b578f8#ht_2339wt_924

 

[brown down]

i contacted curtis last night, what a great guy to talk to and very very informative, prior to reading this thread! unfortunately i need a larger capacity vacuum chamber and wonder if anyone has any thought as to this design, pressure cooker converted to a vacuum chamber??? that way i can fit bowl size pieces in the chamber? any thoughts
http://thegreatgeekery.blogspot.com/2011/05/pressure-cooker-vacuum-chamber.html

There are some ebay postings for vacuum chambers that look interesting too...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-chamber-VAC-IT-PRO-degasing-urethanes-etc-/190668175608?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item2c64b578f8#ht_2339wt_924

you ARE THE MAN! I just ordered it and hopefully comes soon! thats exactly the size i needed and now don't have to go through all of the BS of making one or rigging one that don't know if it would work. plus a pressure cooker cost just around the same price. thank you so much for helping me out.

 

[BangleGuy]

i contacted curtis last night, what a great guy to talk to and very very informative, prior to reading this thread! unfortunately i need a larger capacity vacuum chamber and wonder if anyone has any thought as to this design, pressure cooker converted to a vacuum chamber??? that way i can fit bowl size pieces in the chamber? any thoughts
http://thegreatgeekery.blogspot.com/2011/05/pressure-cooker-vacuum-chamber.html

There are some ebay postings for vacuum chambers that look interesting too...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-chamber-VAC-IT-PRO-degasing-urethanes-etc-/190668175608?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item2c64b578f8#ht_2339wt_924

you ARE THE MAN! I just ordered it and hopefully comes soon! thats exactly the size i needed and now don't have to go through all of the BS of making one or rigging one that don't know if it would work. plus a pressure cooker cost just around the same price. thank you so much for helping me out.

Well, I hope it works out for you. I had searched Ebay in the past for some chambers and decided on the Turntex model.

Also, I have used the Turntex Cactus Juice for about a month, stabilizing over 100 different bangle blanks (and 20 different wood species). The juice works well. Just don't do too much stabilizing in the house at one time or you'll gas yourself out!:wacko1: It's worth every penny to buy a toaster oven at Walmart or Lowes and leave it in the shop (just check your oven termp at 200 F) Good Luck!

 

[brown down]

i contacted curtis last night, what a great guy to talk to and very very informative, prior to reading this thread! unfortunately i need a larger capacity vacuum chamber and wonder if anyone has any thought as to this design, pressure cooker converted to a vacuum chamber??? that way i can fit bowl size pieces in the chamber? any thoughts
http://thegreatgeekery.blogspot.com/2011/05/pressure-cooker-vacuum-chamber.html

There are some ebay postings for vacuum chambers that look interesting too...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-chamber-VAC-IT-PRO-degasing-urethanes-etc-/190668175608?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item2c64b578f8#ht_2339wt_924

you ARE THE MAN! I just ordered it and hopefully comes soon! thats exactly the size i needed and now don't have to go through all of the BS of making one or rigging one that don't know if it would work. plus a pressure cooker cost just around the same price. thank you so much for helping me out.

Well, I hope it works out for you. I had searched Ebay in the past for some chambers and decided on the Turntex model.

Also, I have used the Turntex Cactus Juice for about a month, stabilizing over 100 different bangle blanks (and 20 different wood species). The juice works well. Just don't do too much stabilizing in the house at one time or you'll gas yourself out!:wacko1: It's worth every penny to buy a toaster oven at Walmart or Lowes and leave it in the shop (just check your oven termp at 200 F) Good Luck!

I talked to him the other day, what a great guy. I just need to find out if the cactus juice is food safe. I want to suck that stuff or another type through my bowls and pepper mill blanks to add a solid finish through the pieces but have to be 100% sure it is food grade safe. and also to save and stabilize wood i would normally burn! thanks again for getting me that info:clapping::clapping:

 

[ripjack13]

I'd like to know if it is food safe as well. I was thinking of glueing up some stabilized blocks into a bread board. (not for cutting on though) I think that would make great use of my scrap blocks I have accumulated over the years.

 

[Mizer]

I'd like to know if it is food safe as well. I was thinking of glueing up some stabilized blocks into a bread board. (not for cutting on though) I think that would make great use of my scrap blocks I have accumulated over the years.

That is what I was wondering also. Other than the food safe question, which I would imagine it is. I was wondering how wood that has been stabilized glues.

 

[BangleGuy]

I'd like to know if it is food safe as well. I was thinking of glueing up some stabilized blocks into a bread board. (not for cutting on though) I think that would make great use of my scrap blocks I have accumulated over the years.

That is what I was wondering also. Other than the food safe question, which I would imagine it is. I was wondering how wood that has been stabilized glues.

I have not researched if the cured resin is food safe... It would be a good question for Curtis of Turntex.

Regarding how it glues, I have glued stabilized pieces together just fine using Gorilla glue and two part epoxy.

 

[ripjack13]

Gorilla glue and epoxy....which one held up the longest?

And...specifically which GG did you use? The white or the brown? I have both.

 

[BangleGuy]

Gorilla glue and epoxy....which one held up the longest?

And...specifically which GG did you use? The white or the brown? I have both.

I used the brown GG in one instance where a tan/brown seem was acceptable. In another instance (where a brown line wasn't going to work), I used two-part clear epoxy. They both seemed to hold up fine. I prefer the GG since it doesn't require mixing.