Clark R. Bavin, National Fish & Wildlife Forensics Lab, Ashland, OR

[Mike1950]

How many of use here can tell the difference between ebony species? Some people see dark wood and it is black and they will easily say it is ebony. Take that statement and insert a rookie customs officer. I am checking in a guitar into the flight I am in. I better have every documentation to back up anything that might come up in something is in question. Not every ebony species are in the CITES restrictions, but how do I prove what I have as fretboard and and bridge is west African ebony Gabon? Ceylon ebony and Malagasy ebony is CITES restricted. So they can confiscate my guitar if they choose to and wanted to give me a hard time. If they just want to be a-holes, they can pick on the shellfish inlays- you do need documentation for those. How about Brazilian rosewood? What if the customs agent had a feeling that what I have is Brazilian rosewood? What if I don’t and it really is some Morado wannabe rosewood? My guitar gets confiscated and I can’t get it back until I can prove with tangible paperwork that it is not Brazilian rosewood. Oh wait a second, your nut and saddle materials might be ivory? What if they are not and they are bone or some sort of engineered plastic. This just ridiculous. Don’t be a musician and travel with your guitars internationally. Leave your gigging guitars at home. That is what customs is telling us to do. BS.

Stop buying exotic. OK. This will lower demand. Which will lower price on legit woods also. So the poor starving native family gets less and the Chinese get to blame us and be generous and offer to buy more at reduced price cause they are such nice, honorable and legit buyers. Yep that will solve the problem.

 

[Arn213]

Stop buying exotic. OK. This will lower demand. Which will lower price on legit woods also. So the poor starving native family gets less and the Chinese get to blame us and be generous and offer to buy more at reduced price cause they are such nice, honorable and legit buyers. Yep that will solve the problem.

I didn’t say I had an answer to solve this crisis- I don’t. Do you? Don’t support and patronize anything that is against your beliefs, your morals and values. You want the ball out of their court then don’t do business with them- buy local, buy American, support American businesses, support good quality and well made material. I can say all of this, but we have a larger international problem because all the labor- those businesses are being funneled into that one country. My brother is in the fashion industry. You have seen tags that says made in Italy. Those products are not made by Italians. It is an aging population. All of those boutique handbags, purses, wallets can say made in France, Italy or whatever, it doesn’t mean they are done by local natives, yet they charge you a loot. When a country gives work to another country, they learn the process and then they get good at it. Then they can make knock offs, a much better product because they have learned and became good at it. Then they start their own companies and their angle is that they are farmed from the same fabricators that all of these boutique fashion companies uses. So they want you to buy from them because the quality of material and craftsmanship is the same, less the brand name.

A lot of designer companies that make clothing as you know are farmed overseas. My brother has told me that a designer brand that everyone here probably knows, were it cost $ 7 to get made you know where and it will retail for $ 100.

Unfortunately, lower end guitars are in the same boat.

 

[Mike1950]

I didn’t say I had an answer to solve this crisis- I don’t. Do you? Don’t support and patronize anything that is against your beliefs, your morals and values. You want the ball out of their court then don’t do business with them- buy local, buy American, support American businesses, support good quality and well made material. I can say all of this, but we have a larger international problem because all the labor- those businesses are being funneled into that one country. My brother is in the fashion industry. You have seen tags that says made in Italy. Those products are not made by Italians. It is an aging population. All of those boutique handbags, purses, wallets can say made in France, Italy or whatever, it doesn’t mean they are done by local natives, yet they charge you a loot. When a country gives work to another country, they learn the process and then they get good at it. Then they can make knock offs, a much better product because they have learned and became good at it. Then they start their own companies and their angle is that they are farmed from the same fabricators that all of these boutique fashion companies uses. So they want you to buy from them because the quality of material and craftsmanship is the same, less the brand name.

A lot of designer companies that make clothing as you know are farmed overseas. My brother has told me that a designer brand that everyone here probably knows, were it cost $ 7 to get made you know where and it will retail for $ 100.

Unfortunately, lower end guitars are in the same boat.

Oh I no way think I have answers. But even the things I think should change no one would listen to. One thing for sure, what we are doing has not solved anything, in fact I think it has made things much worse.
The Chinese sweatshop in Italy have trashed Italian garmet industries.

 

[Arn213]

Doug @DLJeffs my apologies for side tracking your thread, but I did get some help along the way

 

[Arn213]

If they will put the woodworkers, furniture makers, guitar builders, loggers, vendors accountable to the exhaustion and now prohibited species, then if all things being equal, the perfumery trade should also be in the same boat. Chanel, Dior, YSL etc. have used the oil for their perfumes. Think about this 200 pounds plus of rosewood wood will yield 2 plus pounds of essential oil from the Amazon basin/rainforest while the sourcing has change due to restrictions (replanting from adjacent countries or substitute has been used), they have done their part to exhaust what was once plentiful. We are partly talking about Brazilian rosewood (dalbergia nigra) here which is highly protected and on CITES Appendix I.

 

[Mike1950]

Doug @DLJeffs my apologies for side tracking your thread, but I did get some help along the way

no way you are to blame....

 

[DLJeffs]

no way you are to blame....

It's all been an interesting discussion and trading of ideas and opinions. Maybe a little political but it's almost impossible to keep that out of a discussion that so directly involves human / nature / government interaction. When I think about things like this - trees, water, raw materials for cars, batteries, etc - I usually end up back at the root cause of there's too many people on the planet.

 

[Mike1950]

If they will put the woodworkers, furniture makers, guitar builders, loggers, vendors accountable to the exhaustion and now prohibited species, then if all things being equal, the perfumery trade should also be in the same boat. Chanel, Dior, YSL etc. have used the oil for their perfumes. Think about this 200 pounds plus of rosewood wood will yield 2 plus pounds of essential oil from the Amazon basin/rainforest while the sourcing has change due to restrictions (replanting from adjacent countries or substitute has been used), they have done their part to exhaust what was once plentiful. We are partly talking about Brazilian rosewood (dalbergia nigra) here which is highly protected and on CITES Appendix I.

first sentence- No way can you do that. Mountains of restricted wood is and has been in states. Go to Bohlke's warehouse. I was there in 2018. stacks 20' high of wood that are on lists. My shop- I doubt any wood is not legal but there is no way to prove that. Nor do I really care. I do NOT have the resources to be able to track down life of the tree and lumber from it. I have a 52x14x4 coco plank. got it in 2020. It has not moved since-Why? the damn thing is heavy. Guy before me had it for 20 years along with 600 lbs of amboyna burl. heaviest was 100+ he got it from someone who had it for 20 yrs. How do you prove that?? one proof was- the big burl was dry all the ways thru- probably takes 10-15 yrs to air dry that size. But that is deduced info, the government would never go for such speculation.
The government has decided it can control wood in the world, me- I aint that stupid, I bet they do not stop 1% coming into this country and half of that is dumb luck.....

 

[Mike1950]

It's all been an interesting discussion and trading of ideas and opinions. Maybe a little political but it's almost impossible to keep that out of a discussion that so directly involves human / nature / government interaction. When I think about things like this - trees, water, raw materials for cars, batteries, etc - I usually end up back at the root cause of there's too many people on the planet.

I agree but if we were here in the dinosaur days, we would have been aghast at how they were destroying species of vegetation. Probably put a bounty on them. But I have the faith, long after we are gone-planet will still be here, thriving, as it is now.
I find it sad that we-Americans cannot civilly discuss anything without someone getting upset. I blame it on the media. they are bought and paid for. Their only job is to keep us at each other's throats and do a great job of it.
We may be cause for extinctions but we are pikers at killing off species, slow and inefficient. Takes centuries sometimes. a good ol asteroid and we are talking 95% in an instant- now that sir is climate change. Even more recent-ice age. It stripped many species from world. I bet the 400' ocean rise from melting ice pack killed a few. Now we worry about a centimeter- ha what a joke...
Ps. it is very nice to have civil discussion- lots of ideas- even if @Arn213 is wrong...

 

[Arn213]

^All I know these type of threads usually a handful of people will touch and we seem to be the dumb old a$$es that gets triggered and partake in such threads (no don’t do a search, we will look like dumber a$$es).

 

[Arn213]

Help me make sense of this if you all could. There are countries like India and one other country that I know if that a piece of lumber has been worked on by natives and there are milling marks like a dado slot or whatever, it is legal for them to ship internationally, I am talking about East Indian rosewood and genuine mahogany (Peruvian mahogany). How does that become okay you ask yourself as the lumber that comes from worked on pieces of lumber by natives could have not been legally harvested- it is a “loop hole that takes on another angle”?

 

[Mike1950]

^All I know these type of threads usually a handful of people will touch and we seem to be the dumb old a$$es that gets triggered and partake in such threads (no don’t do a search, we will look like dumber a$$es).

I know we both do not agree with this. part of the problem is most just are worn out from dissention. How can we facilitate change without discussion, those who stay silent must like it just like it is. And this is not politics- there are plenty of dipsh!ts on each side that created this problem. And I am sure more will follow.
I respect your and others opinion, we are all partially right. Solutions will be illusive, beyond illusive in my opinion if we do not change system at source. People that lose their occupation by a sweep of the pen 10,000 miles away and have no other place to go, will continue to do what they did-legal or not.
Like many laws this one is like a bandaid on cancer- out of sight- does not cure....

 

[Mike1950]

Help me make sense of this if you all could. There are countries like India and one other country that I know if that a piece of lumber has been worked on by natives and there are milling marks like a dado slot or whatever, it is legal for them to ship internationally, I am talking about East Indian rosewood and genuine mahogany (Peruvian mahogany). How does that become okay you ask yourself as the lumber that comes from worked on pieces of lumber by natives could have not been legally harvested- it is a “loop hole that takes on another angle”?

I have east indian rosewood- imported by a sunglass maker. 8 wide by 3" x 16 (example) with an ogee on one edge- finished trim. amboyna dried and sanded with finish on one side -finished table top. This only means the Country that wood originates from, makes the law- realizes the net loss and creates loopholes to regain income...
Ps. sunglass maker- Portland, oregon - decided it was not green to being making glasses out of said wood and sold it. That saved a bunch of trees-says no one.

 

[DLJeffs]

I'm sure a big part of it is trying to provide a way for the common man to make a living. Which is a noble cause. The trouble starts when people try to subvert the noble cause to make it something else. I see the same thing in the shell collecting world. Conscientious collectors will find a shell and check it over. If it isn't gem quality, they'll release it alive to propagate the species. Only take fully mature, top quality shells, and only one or two from any one area or reef. But as soon as someone discovers they can sell shells on the market, they'll go out there and collect every specimen they can find, regardless of quality. A couple shell collector auction sites I watch (I started collecting when I was a kid in Samoa) now have one or two sellers who will list a group sale of 30 -40 -50 shells, instead of just listing individual, singular collectable shells. I think the auction sites need to self-police themselves and tell them to stop or risk being banned. Remove the mechanism that allows them to sell like that. That's how those areas will suddenly become void of sea shells. I've seen it happen in the fisheries world as well. And nearly all those sellers are in the Philippines, Indonesia, or India where there is no enforcement.

 

[DLJeffs]

I agree but if we were here in the dinosaur days, we would have been aghast at how they were destroying species of vegetation. Probably put a bounty on them. But I have the faith, long after we are gone-planet will still be here, thriving, as it is now.
I find it sad that we-Americans cannot civilly discuss anything without someone getting upset. I blame it on the media. they are bought and paid for. Their only job is to keep us at each other's throats and do a great job of it.
We may be cause for extinctions but we are pikers at killing off species, slow and inefficient. Takes centuries sometimes. a good ol asteroid and we are talking 95% in an instant- now that sir is climate change. Even more recent-ice age. It stripped many species from world. I bet the 400' ocean rise from melting ice pack killed a few. Now we worry about a centimeter- ha what a joke...
Ps. it is very nice to have civil discussion- lots of ideas- even if @Arn213 is wrong...

Species evolve, change, come and go, it's part of nature. The discussion we had about spotted vs barred owls is a prime example. Barred owls are more aggressive protectors of their territory; more prolific breeders, and are expanding their territory into the spotted owl territory. As a result, they're more successful than the spotted owls and the spotted owl population is decreasing. It's a natural evolution. I watch the hummingbirds around our feeder. Some are more aggressive at driving away the others. But it's their natural way of living - it's not my business to try to change that influence. If I do, I risk totally screwing it up.

 

[Arn213]

I know we both do not agree with this. part of the problem is most just are worn out from dissention. How can we facilitate change without discussion, those who stay silent must like it just like it is. And this is not politics- there are plenty of dipsh!ts on each side that created this problem. And I am sure more will follow.
I respect your and others opinion, we are all partially right. Solutions will be illusive, beyond illusive in my opinion if we do not change system at source. People that lose their occupation by a sweep of the pen 10,000 miles away and have no other place to go, will continue to do what they did-legal or not.
Like many laws this one is like a bandaid on cancer- out of sight- does not cure....

You have no argument with me here and I do think we have more agreements than disagreements.

What happened to the good old days when you bought what the vendor sold without having to negotiate in your mind if this lumber has been procured legally and have to stay in the now to know which wood species is off the table? While these rules and regulations have been put in place on restricted species, you will still see an abundance of vendors selling them AND at times you will get a newsletter feed that they have a new shipment and you all can fill in the blank……..

^I stopped buying exotic woods altogether for this reason I stated above. I was at time looking for korina about over a decade ago and there was a vendor who imported logs from Africa and dried and milled them here in Georgia. I bought from them as they had full on documentation and Lacey Act compliant. That species is not restricted and far from it, but they want to be compliant because if in the near future this wood species does go into the Appendix listing, you have paper work and receipt that states that this said wood was in “full compliance”. This is important if you are going to build guitars and import them internationally.

 

[Mike1950]

You have no argument with me here and I do think we have more agreements than disagreements.

What happened to the good old days when you bought what the vendor sold without having to negotiate in your mind if this lumber has been procured legally and have to stay in the now to know which wood species is off the table? While these rules and regulations have been put in place on restricted species, you will still see an abundance of vendors selling them AND at times you will get a newsletter feed that they have a new shipment and you all can fill in the blank……..

^I stopped buying exotic woods altogether for this reason I stated above. I was at time looking for korina about over a decade ago and there was a vendor who imported logs from Africa and dried and milled them here in Georgia. I bought from them as they had full on documentation and Lacey Act compliant. That species is not restricted and far from it, but they want to be compliant because if in the near future this wood species does go into the Appendix listing, you have paper work and receipt that states that this said wood was in “full compliance”. This is important if you are going to build guitars and import them internationally.

Most of our disagreements are only because you reside in New York. " hell or New York, just the same to me" :)
But if country of origin does not enforce laws it is hopeless. Laos and Mun ebony. As always it gets down to 1 thing. $$$$$$$
Thanks to the both of you.
I think we have to speak up, even a quiet bashful guy like me. If we do not, we will in time lose the right to speak up. I do it for my grandkids...

 

[Arn213]

Most of our disagreements are only because you reside in New York. " hell or New York, just the same to me" :)
But if country of origin does not enforce laws it is hopeless. Laos and Mun ebony. As always it gets down to 1 thing. $$$$$$$
Thanks to the both of you.
I think we have to speak up, even a quiet bashful guy like me. If we do not, we will in time lose the right to speak up. I do it for my grandkids...

I wanted to give you a laugh and an a like emoji- come on mods make that happen!
Hell does exist at both ends of the country- NY and LA…….”Escape from New York or Escape from LA”. Pick your poison. Just to clarify, NY does have a lush version of Washington State and that is in the Adirondacks. I can really post pics. the hell version of NYC and it will make people think twice about coming here or sending there kids to go here for college, etc.. Heck, our own Li’l Mikey @Mike Hill is more afraid of a block of terracotta falling down from a high rise hitting his cowboy hat that will end his trip while on the other hand he has more to be afraid off, hence he had his hand on his pocket, just in case something comes a brew…….we both know what he has in his pockets are “change” to give it to the pan handlers while he walked NYC back in the 80’s in Times Square or change for the peep show……..

 

[Mike1950]

We agree. We have hell here, Seattle and Portland.
I have to be quiet though. I head west of mountains next week. I do not want to upset the the western gods. And I only want to lighten their load, a pu full of koa.
I have been close to Northern NY. Just over border in Vermont or PA.
We agree on most everything.

 

[300LW]

99% of the blame lies with China. Demand from the rest of the world is miniscule. We’re not the ones bribing local officials.