Cuban Mahogany, Bubinga, etc
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Knowing the chain of custody is still important and good to know. Small amounts, often not an issue, but bigger amounts can cause attention. There is a good amount of Florida mahogany grown in Florida, sold as Cuban because it brings more money under that name. Good luck.
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Thanks for those tips Mark.
Question- I was told the boards we have were Cuban Mahogany (22” wide x 2” slabs) which came from a tree harvested in Florida a number of years ago.
So, assuming it’s the same genus/species as genuine Cuban Mahogany, can it be sold as such? Or, is that misleading a potential buyer? (Or does it really matter?)
Thanks for any insight.
Plenty of bubinga in country. In 2018 I was at Bolhke warehouse north of Cincinnati. So big the stacks were scary. 20' tall stacks of Bubinga. And I mean multiple stacks.
I disagree on needing to know how and when it got here. I have a 52x14" x4" plus chunk of coco. I have had for 4 years. I bought from someone who had moved from Maine to Colorado 20 yrs ago. He bought it dry from someone who had it for 15 yrs.
Mun , phillipine ebony burl, black and white, sindoa burl, that sat in Hawaii for 11 years in warehouse. I had 12 lv burl slabs. Dry and long time stored. If legally purchased in states there is no legal reason you have to have know where it has been. Hell if it is not legal no one is going to tell you. IMO chain of custody is just a feel good measure. CITES wood is being sold all over planet with absolutely no paperwork.
Perfect example green coco burl. Exported somehow from Mexico and now offered for sale in Vietnam for export to states. Only paperwork is box it is in.. my opinion, already known, cites is worthless.. treats symptom but no solution. Standard government worthless regs.. sure is pretty..
Yes, it does matter knowing what swietenia species that you have. If you are dealing with luthiers they would want to know and they would want to know the difference as far as working properties and sonic properties. Luthier’s who build electrics would shy away from Cuban mahogany because it is on the heavy end for bodies and neck material. Cuban mahogany has also this in between sonic tone that differentiate it from genuine mahogany (woody and mid range)- it has a sonic footprint between hog and rosewood. The wise one’s will ask you the physical weight and weight per board foot. That is one important aspect.
Secondly, to the furniture builders and restorer’s. I will give you an example and this has been documented in history books- the shielded back chairs that are period correct from Hepplewhite, Sheraton, Chippendale used Cuban mahogany for those style chairs because of the density and structural strength. Genuine Honduran mahogany would not hold up if that was used for the ornate and delicate “tracery” on the shielded back pattern and design. I do have my own argument on this though and this is based on my experience- just like maple species, there is low, mid and high density. Silver maple is low density. Red maple to Western bigleaf medium density and hard rock/sugar maple is high density. That is a density range from 2.7 to a hair under 4 pounds per board foot. Honduran mahogany has the same spectrum density range- meaning you can have lower density hog at 2.5 and have 5 pounds per board foot Honduran hog. Those 4-5 pounds per board foot that gets really dark in color can get mistaken for Cuban mahogany. My argument is that any swietenia species can be used as long as it has a higher density range and pattern grade for shielded backs.
Can I tell the difference in photo’s between the 2 species- NO. End grain, well it is difficult and Paul @phinds can dive into that for you as well as Marc @Mr. Peet . The only way outside of the basic identification is that Cuban mahogany has a silky hand- feels oily. That doesn’t hold true for genuine mahogany. The next is aroma- Honduran mahogany will always have this trail light scent like spicy Spanish cedar. Cuban mahogany does not.
I posted a neck blank of real Cuban mahogany grown in the Caribbean and not in FL.
That is kind of my point, Florida grown, should you call it Cuban? That is your call. Yes, the name Cuban should be only used for Swietenia mahagoni. Personally, calling it Cuban when grown in the USA, I'd find that misleading, and if doing so to score higher prices, likewise. Kind of comes down to your moral choice.
I've seen it sold as Florida grown Cuban mahogany. I think that is a really straight forward way to list a wood. But again, your choice.
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Arn - thanks for your insight. The only confusing part (a bit) is that what I'm reading (including in the Wood database info) is that Cuban Mahogany was originally termed "genuine Mahogany" until it was almost cut to extinction at which time Honduran Mahogany seems to have taken the title of Genuine Mahogany. Also - I've read where Cuban Mahogany is native to both Florida (Keys) and Cuba.
In any case, when the time comes, I will list the wood we have as Florida grown Cuban Mahogany.
The term Genuine was used for all of the Swietenia genus, as a way to separate from Khaya, Shorea and many others that came into the trade at the time. Implying, Swietenia was the first wood heavily used as 'mahogany'.
@Mr. Peet covered your second line in his post, #10. There is nothing confusing about it and “Swietenia” as the genus is a start point to know what you have or buying is genuine mahogany. The species is what separates the swietenia’s- Cuban mahogany would be listed as “swietenia mahogani”, Honduran mahogany would be listed as “swietenia macrophylla”. Mexican mahogany would be listed as “swietenia humilis”. Genuine mahogany nowadays comes from different parts of central and predominantly in South America- commercial Honduran mahogany that is. Some vendors will sell genuine mahogany under “South American” mahogany.
If you want to dive at the deeper end of this, you have to go back to Belize when it was British Honduras. The flag will tell you all that their main resource was mahogany during the boom in the 18th-19th century when British Honduras was a British colony and mahogany was abundant and main staple for trade. There are books and books about it and a lot of serious guitar builders and beauty of the burst aficionados who are serious about the wood in their guitars have laid serious interest in the “old growth” term in genuine mahogany.
Genuine mahogany- commercial grade Honduran mahogany is in the CITES appendix III. There are countries that have farms of mahogany where these commerically comes from- Fiji is one of the biggest. Palau is one of the countries that grows Cuban mahogany.
Here is the kicker and both Honduran mahogany and Cuban mahogany does grow in 2 US States- Florida and Hawaii. Hawaii’s soil, environment and elevation permits most species to grow in the different islands. African Blackwood can be found in the big Island in the drier region.
In any case, you have to do due diligence to make positively sure that what you are offering is either Cuban mahogany or Honduran mahogany for possible suitors. Not all mahogany that grows in FL is Cuban per my statement above and I can site this for you.
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I am going to post some photo’s of my old hog’s of my old stock that were all 16/4 patterned grade- mostly from Belize. You can read up on things on line and articles that sites the information from all over. My personal view, that there are subjective. You have had to be physically present and have processed and work on this species to know what they are all about. So I don’t buy into the field work and you have to have some kind of woodworking background for me to buy into it. Otherwise is just a bunch of gibberish words sited and lifted from one write up to the next and with all the generalization built into it. You have to tell me more than that like it’s working properties, olfactory, etc., etc..
I always hear the word “old growth” and hand in hand it goes that is light weight. It is completely false. I know of a well known woodworker when I lived down south (Charleston, SC) that has massive conference table 16/4 to 20/4 conference slabs. He does a lot of conservatory work for interiors and builds furniture. The ports in Charleston was an ideal place for the mahogany to come to. We agree on one thing that old growth mahogany (genuine) is dense and heavy- which is what furniture makers prefer because of tensile strength and be able to hold up with fragile carving in lattice work. It also works like “butter”. I will include the growth ring data photo’s which I have collected. The growth ring spacing on true old, slow growth mahogany have ring spacing from 1/8” to 1/16”. It also has homogenous face grain on pattern grade material.
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Cuban mahogany is simply one of several common names for Swietenia mahogani, no matter where is grew. Likewise, Honduran mahogany refers to Swietenia macrophylla, most of which currently comes from Brazil and in my opinion is of low quality. It is helpful if the seller would reveal the country of origin. I've not been impressed with Florida grown Cuban mahogany lumber, most of it is probably from fast growing yard trees planted in the past 100 years.
Ooh (whisper mode on)……..you hear foot prints Warden @Eric Rorabaugh? It sounds like a “bear claw” & it’s gnawing at the maple……..no it’s not curly hog…….listen closely.…….you hear that……..it is pronounced “bare klaa”
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I think that issue is old growth vs new growth. same wood but not the same. Can really see it here in PNW. old growth cedar- lasts a long time out side. New growth, does not. Old growth Douglas fir- huge strength advantage over new growth. And both are regrown in same spot.
is ABW not ABW if it has not grown in Africa. Is Mahogany not mahogany if not grown in native country? Good luck keeping that legit.
I use claro walnut as an example- most try to up charge with the name- why?? simple - $$$$ more $$$. Human nature.
I think it is a noble effort to make "sure" of it's origin. The only trouble with that is you have to depend on each hand that touched it and you do not get to know whose hands have touched it.
I go back to my coco burl Ex. above. advertised as cut 10-12 years ago but still 30% MC- Hold it- NO WAY!! So finding truth about that piece of wood - description is a lie. Whatever method it got to Vietnam-I would bet was not legal. Will it sell-absolutely..
Europe is changing laws on wood products. Was supposed to go in effect-this coming Jan. But because nobody has proper paperwork, implementation has been pushed to 2026. To sell wood products in Europe, you need paperwork showing where , why and how tree was harvested, down to a pen blank. Example Big leaf- a weed tree. Last 150 years- most got burnt in big slash piles. I was asked for this paperwork. One of my sources does government work and yard trees. paperwork for each piece of wood. This was an order for 2000 knife blanks. What did I say- You HAVE to be joking. They cut all the trees in europe down a few 100 years ago. But their rules will save the trees. BULL- whomever is best creator of fake paperwork and lies will get those contracts. Me- I am lucky if I can ID what state big leaf came from let alone why and how it was cut. And of course buyer does not want to pay more. feel good laws that drive up prices is all that it creates, and I bet it will not save 1 tree...
Governments of the world should try to solve solvable problems and restrain themselves from creating new unsolvable problems. rant over- for now... grrrr
You always seem to find a way to pull me in and the truth of the matter is, we will be the only lonely two that would have racket at hand, hitting the ball from one court to the next. We are not ever going to solve this and we will be going around in circles to only arrive to the same issue(s) you posted.
As far as species being endemic to a specific country and if certain species grown in other countries, then there should be another category implemented that would list it in documents or in a receipt that “African Blackwood (dalbergia melanoxylon)/Hawaiian grown”. You have then to prove with time and date stamp photo’s of where it was standing (with coordinates), photo of the milled stock (with measuring tape), how much it would yield in sub-category of component parts, etc. This is kind of the way they treat those CITES restricted material in order to get passports and permits, like what luthiers go through “before” they triangulate a billet into component parts or approximate what the yield is. This just adds time, energy, raise the cost of material (raw & finished goods) and those having jurisdictions, just get to pad their pockets. It just gets ridiculous. But, since this is not endemic to Hawaii, it should be allowed for import and export (again you have to prove it with documents and photo’s).
The same with genuine mahogany that is not endemic to central and South American countries that grow them (there is not one country that this swietenia mac. is endemic to, not unless you go back in time where Belize/British Honduras was the largest supplier for trade). Take Fiji mahogany for instance- that is genuine mahogany, but not endemic to Fiji. An Australian vendor showed me containers of these woods for guitar building, he told me he is allowed to import it and export it because this is not endemic to Fiji. So he has it marketed as “Fiji Mahogany”. He has paperwork and he has photo’s of the wood and a trail of photo’s when the Fijians were loading these slabs into a container to head to AU. No one will mistaken these for old growth material because they have wide growth rings and they have tiny knots.
Tracing the tree from it’s origin, into log form, into milled lumber, to the vendor/country that it was imported to, to the buyer, to the buyer that re-sold the wood (in many sizes after processing), then to the next steward(s), etc.- the chain of custody would be next to impossible to keep it in line and organized. Some folks also barter- how do you handle that with chain of custody? Good luck with all of that.
Most exotic woods coming to us now from all those countries are most likely have not followed the legal route. Check most on-line vendors and they will have new arrivals of exotic materials. There are restricted species there and they don’t mention anything that the wood was “legally procured and obtained”. I see a well known and reputable vendor that has green genuine rosewood that was harvested last year (they own up that this was harvested in 2023). Ask yourself how were they able to import this from another continent into the US when it is CITES II protected from 2017? They list it and they have a disclaimer that this “can only be shipped to US address only”.
That new EU regulations deforestation being pushed for 2025 and now being pushed back for 2026 will have great impact on timber importations. It will not just have financial ramification to the Euro community, but a “domino effect” globally and especially to a great deal of suppliers in the US on maple, alder, ash, etc. that builders in Europe depends on us for guitar building. There will be a major backlash and I doubt it would be implemented because it will greatly affect a large deal of commerce in different trades globally. We will see a rise in cost on raw and especially finished goods.
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Hell, I think we agree