Rules discussion

[woodtickgreg]

In my opinion you and the others are doing a fantastic job of striking a good balance between the extremes. Thank you all for putting in the time you do to make, and keep, this site a wonderful community!

Thank you for that, we do appreciate it. All of the staff here really do care about the site and it's members and we do the best we can to improve the site and keep everyone happy and keep things running smoothly. It's a challenge at times but it's a labor of love.

 

[Mike1950]

Here lies the hard part. How to allow sellers only but not commercial sellers. People sell here for free but do not contribute to the site. How not to turn this place into ebay. Us admins and mods are trying to figure this out. We are not coming down as hard as we have in the past with just sellers here so the rest of the folks on the site have a good choice of wood to purchase. But we also don't want one or a couple of people just dominating the wood for sale threads, that's not fair to the folks that just have a couple of items for sale. So we keep learning and trying things and we appreciate everyone's input and ideas.

First off you guys do a great job.
Commercial seller. If Joe is, I am way over that line. So are quite a few others.
I have challenged the selling rules more than anyone probably. Usually turn myself in. I also do not robo post sale posts.
Kevins original intent was a safe buying place. He was a commercial seller. He also followed unwritten rules. Sort like manners. One of them was don't robo post. Really is annoying anywhere.usually a kind reminder is all it takes.
Since the rules sorta got relaxed, I have only thought robo posts were the only annoying thing.
Thanks for work. I still think having a warden is a mistake.

 

[Eric Rorabaugh]

I still think having a warden is a mistake.

Can I get authority to warn, summons or arrest violators here?

 

[Arn213]

Can I get authority to warn, summons or arrest violators here?

Wait, who “knighted you” and made you a mod here again Warden? That day that when that all happen is all a blur to me

 

[Arn213]

To echo everyone else’s sentiments. To all the moderator’s- our deepest gratitude for your invaluable contributions to our community. Your dedication to maintaining a positive and productive environment is truly commendable and significantly contributes to the success of our forum. Your efforts are especially meaningful as they help us honor Kevin's memory in a way that reflects his spirit. We are incredibly fortunate to have such a dedicated and effective moderation team, and we sincerely appreciate your hard work and commitment. Thank you for all that you do…….

Now, let me have a little fun with this and amuse you all a little bit……..now, you all not need to response to this as I’ve already clocked out and it won’t go to me and any response to this will be channeled to the mod on duty (lol)…..

From the desk of Arn213:

I understand the sentiment of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," but our community is evolving, and we must adapt to ensure its long-term health and vibrancy. Some thoughts on improving our forum's experience for both current and future members to a foster a more welcoming and sustainable environment.

Firstly, onboarding needs improvement. Upon joining, new members should be presented with a mandatory “pop-up window” that has a clear and concise set of forum policy and guidelines, containing an acceptance checkbox. This will proactively address potential issues related to etiquette and respectful communication, saving moderators time and effort in the long run.

Secondly, I have learned from an evolution of another forum I've been a part of for 27 years. That forum, initially a small, close-knit community of builders/hobbyist/musicians/collectors, experienced significant growth after rebranding and attracting retailers and brands. This growth, while beneficial, necessitated substantial changes, including a complete platform upgrade and the introduction of tiered membership levels. The cost actually differs annually for a member versus a commercial vendor (about 50%).

While this led to increased costs, additional man power was needed, it also provided various benefits to members, including expanded posting selling privileges, increased storage, communication capabilities and a title badge as a supporting member based on the tier you select when you donate. You can choose to “remain as just a member”, however that minimized your posting privileges related to selling in the forum, you get more banner advertisements and limited storage in dm’s.

The paid membership levels also experienced highlighted potential drawbacks. Some members who were supporting members that donated felt entitled, leading to occasional dissatisfaction and even departures. This would need careful consideration and evaluation when implementing any paid membership system in our own forum.

Instead of a full-fledged paid membership, I propose a more gradual and, I believe, more equitable alternative: a voluntary donation system. Members who regularly sell items could contribute a small percentage of their sales to the forum's upkeep and improvement of the platform. This approach would be fairer than a tiered membership system, particularly for those who are not primarily using the forum for commercial purposes.

We need to be realistic. Maintaining our forum incurs costs. We must find a sustainable solution that addresses these financial needs without alienating our core members. This proposed donation system strikes a balance, encouraging community involvement in sustaining the platform while remaining accessible to all. Open communication and transparency are crucial. Changes will inevitably occur as our community grows, and it's vital to involve our members in the decision-making process. While we can't please everyone, a collaborative approach, emphasizing clarity and mutual understanding, is paramount. I hope this proposal serves as a starting point for a discussion on how we can collectively strengthen our forum for years to come.

Sincerely & empathically yours,

Arn213

 

[woodtickgreg]

@Arn213 almost all of what you have mentioned above has been discussed at one time or another. Keep in mind that Kevin's original intention for the site was to just be a place for wood sales and barter to keep prices low. But it quickly developed into a full on wood workers site. He realized that the commercial aspect and ebay mentality needed to be kept out of it. Over the years I have watched prices creeping up, greed is human nature it seems. Some guys keep their prices reasonable others not so much. The challenge is to keep the small community feel and not get to commercial with the wood selling aspect of it. The same applies to the forum itself. Ever notice that we have no advertising? That's a big one for me. I hate advertising in my face all the time. Up to this point woodbarter has been self funded and paid for by the members, I hope it stays this way. Now saying all of this nothing is etched in stone. Changes can and will be made but very slowly over time, even years. And we do appreciate everyone's input and feedback and encourage it. Members also have to understand that the staff here is all voluntary, most of us have jobs and families and other life commitments, so change is very slow. I actually think that is a good thing. Most of the staff is here because we love wood working and the family community that has developed. The wood sales part of it is secondary and always will be as Kevin and us didn't want this to become overshadowed and burdened with just sales. Remember the main part of the site name is "barter" It was supposed to be a place to get wood cheap and even traded for at no cost. I have seen this change over the years and the staff does what we can to keep it in check. The site has mainly become a 2 kind of member site. Woodworkers and consumers of wood, and those that are just here to sell wood. We the staff are allowing the just sellers to continue on the site at the request of some members. But it is difficult to monitor and manage, and the staff should not be babysitters for the sales part of the site. It has already gotten out of hand in a few instances and people had to be banned and removed from the site after discussion amongst the staff. So I guess my point is that the staff does listen to input and feedback but also keep in mind that there is a delicate balance here that is trying to be kept in place. A home for the woodworker and the community and a place for people to aquire wood cheaply and at fair prices. Sellers only for the most part drive prices up. Not all sellers are guilty of this but a lot are. So folks remember, this is a place for woodworkers, it's in the name.

 

[SENC]

Can I get authority to warn, summons or arrest violators here?

The problem is, what the heck are you going to do with the old bugger once you arrest him? Likely to be more punishment for you than for him!

 

[Mike1950]

Can I get authority to warn, summons or arrest violators here?

@Arn213 almost all of what you have mentioned above has been discussed at one time or another. Keep in mind that Kevin's original intention for the site was to just be a place for wood sales and barter to keep prices low. But it quickly developed into a full on wood workers site. He realized that the commercial aspect and ebay mentality needed to be kept out of it. Over the years I have watched prices creeping up, greed is human nature it seems. Some guys keep their prices reasonable others not so much. The challenge is to keep the small community feel and not get to commercial with the wood selling aspect of it. The same applies to the forum itself. Ever notice that we have no advertising? That's a big one for me. I hate advertising in my face all the time. Up to this point woodbarter has been self funded and paid for by the members, I hope it stays this way. Now saying all of this nothing is etched in stone. Changes can and will be made but very slowly over time, even years. And we do appreciate everyone's input and feedback and encourage it. Members also have to understand that the staff here is all voluntary, most of us have jobs and families and other life commitments, so change is very slow. I actually think that is a good thing. Most of the staff is here because we love wood working and the family community that has developed. The wood sales part of it is secondary and always will be as Kevin and us didn't want this to become overshadowed and burdened with just sales. Remember the main part of the site name is "barter" It was supposed to be a place to get wood cheap and even traded for at no cost. I have seen this change over the years and the staff does what we can to keep it in check. The site has mainly become a 2 kind of member site. Woodworkers and consumers of wood, and those that are just here to sell wood. We the staff are allowing the just sellers to continue on the site at the request of some members. But it is difficult to monitor and manage, and the staff should not be babysitters for the sales part of the site. It has already gotten out of hand in a few instances and people had to be banned and removed from the site after discussion amongst the staff. So I guess my point is that the staff does listen to input and feedback but also keep in mind that there is a delicate balance here that is trying to be kept in place. A home for the woodworker and the community and a place for people to aquire wood cheaply and at fair prices. Sellers only for the most part drive prices up. Not all sellers are guilty of this but a lot are. So folks remember, this is a place for woodworkers, it's in the name.

Yikes Greg. "Over the years prices have been creeping up"
Sorta take offense to that. Anybody that shops for anything in last 14 yrs, what have prices done. Last 4 years prices for everything have gone up 20+- %. Well except wood i sell. I have not kept up with inflation.
And nobody is raising prices!! The $ has lost value. This is inflation. Has nothing to do with sellers. Has everything to do with $ value. Shipping has pretty much doubled in that 14 yr period. USPS lost 9.5 billion last year. What do you think mail price will do this year? This raises prices for everything. Has nothing to do with sellers. Just another math force .
Speaking of math. 1$=1 second
1 million seconds = 11 days
1 billion seconds = 32 YEARS!
1 trillion seconds= 32,000 years
36 trillion x 32,000 years x365x24x60x60 = if we pay $1 a second, the answer to this is how long it would take to pay the debt off. Personally I am not sure if I will be able to help much with repayment.
Most sellers here have outstanding prices.
The rule here is do not bad moth people's prices and isn't that what you just did.
I know, I know what a pain in the butt.....
Or when you kill 50,000,000 chickens, what should you expect? Eggs to get cheaper?
Side note- funny how they only kill the chickens. Must be that chickens are only bird that gets bird flu. Should be chicken flu.
Rant almost over. Your post puts on us sellers for prices creeping up. If you think about it, that is 100% unadulterated BS.

 

[woodtickgreg]

Yikes Greg. "Over the years prices have been creeping up"
Sorta take offense to that. Anybody that shops for anything in last 14 yrs, what have prices done. Last 4 years prices for everything have gone up 20+- %. Well except wood i sell. I have not kept up with inflation.
And nobody is raising prices!! The $ has lost value. This is inflation. Has nothing to do with sellers. Has everything to do with $ value. Shipping has pretty much doubled in that 14 yr period. USPS lost 9.5 billion last year. What do you think mail price will do this year? This raises prices for everything. Has nothing to do with sellers. Just another math force .
Speaking of math. 1$=1 second
1 million seconds = 11 days
1 billion seconds = 32 YEARS!
1 trillion seconds= 32,000 years
36 trillion x 32,000 years x365x24x60x60 = if we pay $1 a second, the answer to this is how long it would take to pay the debt off. Personally I am not sure if I will be able to help much with repayment.
Most sellers here have outstanding prices.
The rule here is do not bad moth people's prices and isn't that what you just did.
I know, I know what a pain in the butt.....
Or when you kill 50,000,000 chickens, what should you expect? Eggs to get cheaper?
Side note- funny how they only kill the chickens. Must be that chickens are only bird that gets bird flu. Should be chicken flu.
Rant almost over. Your post puts on us sellers for prices creeping up. If you think about it, that is 100% unadulterated BS.

I hear ya brother and I can't disagree completely. Shipping cost have gone way up. Well I didn't bad mouth anyone specifically, just an overall observation.
Everyone will be criticized at some point. I'll take my lumps. I meant no disrespect to anyone here. I have been here as long as you have and was just making an observation with no ill intentions brother. And I agree your prices are fair, I wasn't trying to single anyone out. And I also understand there are cost involved to process wood, kiln dry etc. And then there's also folks that buy wood and resell it and they have to make a profit too. But there's also been people that sell for high dollar. It's also stated in our rules to keep your prices reasonable and no one is going to get rich here. I'm not trying to open a can of worms here. Just stating that there's lots of things to consider in regards to what we allow here for sellers. It's a difficult topic

 

[SENC]

@Arn213 almost all of what you have mentioned above has been discussed at one time or another. Keep in mind that Kevin's original intention for the site was to just be a place for wood sales and barter to keep prices low. But it quickly developed into a full on wood workers site. He realized that the commercial aspect and ebay mentality needed to be kept out of it. Over the years I have watched prices creeping up, greed is human nature it seems. Some guys keep their prices reasonable others not so much. The challenge is to keep the small community feel and not get to commercial with the wood selling aspect of it. The same applies to the forum itself. Ever notice that we have no advertising? That's a big one for me. I hate advertising in my face all the time. Up to this point woodbarter has been self funded and paid for by the members, I hope it stays this way. Now saying all of this nothing is etched in stone. Changes can and will be made but very slowly over time, even years. And we do appreciate everyone's input and feedback and encourage it. Members also have to understand that the staff here is all voluntary, most of us have jobs and families and other life commitments, so change is very slow. I actually think that is a good thing. Most of the staff is here because we love wood working and the family community that has developed. The wood sales part of it is secondary and always will be as Kevin and us didn't want this to become overshadowed and burdened with just sales. Remember the main part of the site name is "barter" It was supposed to be a place to get wood cheap and even traded for at no cost. I have seen this change over the years and the staff does what we can to keep it in check. The site has mainly become a 2 kind of member site. Woodworkers and consumers of wood, and those that are just here to sell wood. We the staff are allowing the just sellers to continue on the site at the request of some members. But it is difficult to monitor and manage, and the staff should not be babysitters for the sales part of the site. It has already gotten out of hand in a few instances and people had to be banned and removed from the site after discussion amongst the staff. So I guess my point is that the staff does listen to input and feedback but also keep in mind that there is a delicate balance here that is trying to be kept in place. A home for the woodworker and the community and a place for people to aquire wood cheaply and at fair prices. Sellers only for the most part drive prices up. Not all sellers are guilty of this but a lot are. So folks remember, this is a place for woodworkers, it's in the name.

Thanks, Greg - and all "staff" - for your efforts. As others have stated, you do a great job and we appreciate you.

For what it's worth, I don't particularly think any of you need to be worried about prices. IMO, that will most efficiently fix itself without intervention. This isn't a huge community buying in quantity, nor (in my observation) is it populated with folks willing to pay exorbitant prices. Sellers looking to move lots of stock or looking to charge above-market prices aren't likely to put much effort here, once they figure that out. On the other hand, if a few such sellers stick it out and remain members, even if only passively, that could yield benefit when a member is seeking something not readily available and posts a want to buy.

Having said that, I do recognize the issue of too many for sale posts. If the software allows, I'd suggest a simple limit on for sale posts. Heavily restricted for new members (however you want to define that) - maybe 5 for sale posts per week or month. Still restricted for longer term members, but not as much - maybe 2x new members. And maybe a special category of members (earned by posts/activity in sub-forums other than "for sale") that yields the least restriction on for sale posts. More sellers like Mike, who participate broadly across the forum, would be a great benefit.

Did I really just suggest we need more old geezers?

 

[phinds]

Did I really just suggest we need more old geezers?

Hey! Us old geezers are the heartbone of ... hm ... uh ... something ... wait, what were we talking about?

 

[shadetree_1]

Duh, did somebody just call me an old fart ??? Didn't think so ! Must be my selective hearing !

 

[Mike1950]

Thanks, Greg - and all "staff" - for your efforts. As others have stated, you do a great job and we appreciate you.

For what it's worth, I don't particularly think any of you need to be worried about prices. IMO, that will most efficiently fix itself without intervention. This isn't a huge community buying in quantity, nor (in my observation) is it populated with folks willing to pay exorbitant prices. Sellers looking to move lots of stock or looking to charge above-market prices aren't likely to put much effort here, once they figure that out. On the other hand, if a few such sellers stick it out and remain members, even if only passively, that could yield benefit when a member is seeking something not readily available and posts a want to buy.

Having said that, I do recognize the issue of too many for sale posts. If the software allows, I'd suggest a simple limit on for sale posts. Heavily restricted for new members (however you want to define that) - maybe 5 for sale posts per week or month. Still restricted for longer term members, but not as much - maybe 2x new members. And maybe a special category of members (earned by posts/activity in sub-forums other than "for sale") that yields the least restriction on for sale posts. More sellers like Mike, who participate broadly across the forum, would be a great benefit.

Did I really just suggest we need more old geezers?

I agree 100%- especially on more geezers- no worries- if you are lucky you will be a geezer soon.
The market- left alone will sort prices on it's own.. I sell considerably less here than I could. Why? cause it is right thing to do. Prices Must be somewhat reasonable- no one complains. And from my observation- most sellers do the same.
And to make a point that most miss- If we over regulate we will not need any buyers- there will be no sellers...
and back to prices- in 2010, after crash- you could have bought all the mun ebony you wanted for $10 a bd ft or less- The piers and warehouses were full-over full. They were selling below cost to get rid of it. I had a guy hauling 2"x20"x 10' to me for $2 a bd ft if I bought a trailer full- Yikes -he knew how to overload a trailer. Now what does the ebony cost- $100 bd ft?? walnut $10-15 bd ft. Price has absolutely nothing to do with buyers or sellers. The market- supply and demand determine market- look no further than price of gas 2019 vs 2020 to see full effect of supply and demand.
Thanks for all you guys do.

 

[Mike1950]

Duh, did somebody just call me an old fart ??? Didn't think so ! Must be my selective hearing !

I missed that you old fart!!!

 

[shadetree_1]

I do appreciate what Greg and the guys are saying and it's not lost on my feeble old brain, and I do see that I have over utilized the sale thread at times, so I'll back up some, but I've just got so many goodies that I've just recently discovered, I just want to share them with everybody, ( and make a few bucks ).

I pretty much lost any interest in the wood when my bride was so sick and passing and it's taken the last 10 years for me to actually have any interest in anything, the wood, people, life, but I'm back and some overzealous, so please guys, forgive an old fart for having buck fever.

 

[woodtickgreg]

I'm about to retire. I guess that will put me in the old fart club too, lol.

 

[Mike1950]

I do appreciate what Greg and the guys are saying and it's not lost on my feeble old brain, and I do see that I have over utilized the sale thread at times, so I'll back up some, but I've just got so many goodies that I've just recently discovered, I just want to share them with everybody, ( and make a few bucks ).

I pretty much lost any interest in the wood when my bride was so sick and passing and it's taken the last 10 years for me to actually have any interest in anything, the wood, people, life, but I'm back and some overzealous, so please guys, forgive an old fart for having buck fever.

Hey buddy- glad you are back from other side. Having lost my first wife- I understand what that journey is. You became we and all of a sudden- you are alone and realize you do not know who you are. And Men suck at being widowers. You take care. Ps. IMO you do fine with your posts.

 

[woodtickgreg]

I do appreciate what Greg and the guys are saying and it's not lost on my feeble old brain, and I do see that I have over utilized the sale thread at times, so I'll back up some, but I've just got so many goodies that I've just recently discovered, I just want to share them with everybody, ( and make a few bucks ).

I pretty much lost any interest in the wood when my bride was so sick and passing and it's taken the last 10 years for me to actually have any interest in anything, the wood, people, life, but I'm back and some overzealous, so please guys, forgive an old fart for having buck fever.

No worries, your fine. Those of us that have been here for awhile remember what you went through and we feel for you brother. Do what you have to do to heal yourself. I don't know what I would do or be like if I lost my Betty.

 

[Arn213]

Yikes Greg. "Over the years prices have been creeping up"
Sorta take offense to that. Anybody that shops for anything in last 14 yrs, what have prices done. Last 4 years prices for everything have gone up 20+- %. Well except wood i sell. I have not kept up with inflation.
And nobody is raising prices!! The $ has lost value. This is inflation. Has nothing to do with sellers. Has everything to do with $ value. Shipping has pretty much doubled in that 14 yr period. USPS lost 9.5 billion last year. What do you think mail price will do this year? This raises prices for everything. Has nothing to do with sellers. Just another math force .
Speaking of math. 1$=1 second
1 million seconds = 11 days
1 billion seconds = 32 YEARS!
1 trillion seconds= 32,000 years
36 trillion x 32,000 years x365x24x60x60 = if we pay $1 a second, the answer to this is how long it would take to pay the debt off. Personally I am not sure if I will be able to help much with repayment.
Most sellers here have outstanding prices.
The rule here is do not bad moth people's prices and isn't that what you just did.
I know, I know what a pain in the butt.....
Or when you kill 50,000,000 chickens, what should you expect? Eggs to get cheaper?
Side note- funny how they only kill the chickens. Must be that chickens are only bird that gets bird flu. Should be chicken flu.
Rant almost over. Your post puts on us sellers for prices creeping up. If you think about it, that is 100% unadulterated BS.

The cost of guitar building woods for guitar building far surpasses that of standard lumber used in general woodworking. Seasoned luthiers demand a much higher standard of quality, scrutinizing grain patterns, density, and overall suitability for instrument construction. While lumber yards often contain usable wood for luthierie, finding suitable building material requires significant time, experienced and knowledge to sift through available stock. This selection process partially accounts for the price difference between guitar-building woods and standard dimensional or rough lumber, whether domestic or exotic.

Many lumber vendors now cater to the guitar-making market, offering wood specifically labelled as "tonewood." However, a crucial distinction must be made via grading. Unless the vendor employs a skilled luthier to carefully curate the wood, these offerings might be no better than ordinary lumber. Some vendors mistakenly equate any figured wood with musical-grade quality, inflating prices accordingly.

The prices of imported exotic tonewoods have dramatically increased over the past decade. Species once considered affordable now command exorbitant prices. For example, the cost of a specific documented tree, “The Tree”- has skyrocketed. In the mid-1980s, a board foot cost approximately $30. Today, a set of back and sides for a guitar, comprising approximately one board foot, can easily cost $6,000 minimum.

Around 25 years ago, I purchased closed to a flawless, quarter-sawn billet of Brazilian rosewood for $835. To replace it now, I would have to pay the current market rate, reflecting the significant price increase. Finding comparable quality wood today presents a considerable challenge; the market value rarely aligns with the quality of the wood itself. This disparity highlights the increasing rarity and value of truly exceptional guitar building woods.

 

[Mike1950]

The cost of guitar building woods for guitar building far surpasses that of standard lumber used in general woodworking. Seasoned luthiers demand a much higher standard of quality, scrutinizing grain patterns, density, and overall suitability for instrument construction. While lumber yards often contain usable wood, finding suitable material requires significant time and expertise to sift through available stock. This selection process partially accounts for the price difference between guitar-building woods and standard dimensional or rough lumber, whether domestic or exotic.

Many lumber vendors now cater to the guitar-making market, offering wood specifically labelled as "tonewood." However, a crucial distinction must be made via grading. Unless the vendor employs a skilled luthier to carefully curate the wood, these offerings might be no better than ordinary lumber. Some vendors mistakenly equate any figured wood with musical-grade quality, inflating prices accordingly.

The prices of imported exotic tonewoods have dramatically increased over the past few decades. Species once considered affordable now command exorbitant prices. For example, the cost of a specific documented tree, “The Tree”- has skyrocketed. In the mid-1980s, a board foot cost approximately $30. Today, a set of back and sides for a guitar, comprising approximately one board foot, can easily cost $6,000 minimum.

Around 25 years ago, I purchased closed to a flawless, quarter-sawn billet of Brazilian rosewood for $835. To replace it now, I would have to pay the current market rate, reflecting the significant price increase. Finding comparable quality wood today presents a considerable challenge; the market value rarely aligns with the quality of the wood itself. This disparity highlights the increasing rarity and value of truly exceptional guitar building woods.

or as I simply said- supply and demand. If supply is larger than demand-price goes down. If supply is much less than demand- price goes up. this is how the market works.