Not as close as I’d like to be
. Two kids in college, one out of state, so it’s going to be a more years.
Basket Bowl at The MET NY x Tim @trc65 Illusion Basket
- Thread starter Arn213
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. Two kids in college, one out of state, so it’s going to be a more years.
Here's a little test/demo I made while waiting to recoat some things tonight. The block is hard maple and is just a practice/warm up block I use when doing a basket piece.
Here are three densities. Didn't try to hit a specific count, that is next to impossible, just tried to hit my "normal" spacing, increase it to a point that I felt was right at the limits of coloring, and then try to burn as close as possible while still maintaining white space. I added in the black marker lines showing an inch spacing.
The top 3 are my typical spacing counted at 19-20 spaces/stitches per inch. I colored in a few alternate stitches to show limitations of the ink markers I use.
The middle came out to 25-26 per inch. At this spacing I can still color the cells without bleeding over the lines.
The last is 35-35 per inch. Doable with the burning tip, but wouldn't be able to color with the nibs I use, but could probably modify the nib a little to make it work. Of course, I'd be certifiable to try a whole basket. One issue with this density is the tiniest slip/miss spacing is very obvious. Look at the middle row on the right side where I got them a little too close together.
BTW, the thickness of the burning tip is 1/64" (.0156").
The three sets of densities. The beads are 1/8".
The piece in my hand for a little scale.
The nib I use in Copic markers. This nib comes as a rounded point, but I sand it to more of a spear point to reach down the sides of the beads.
Bottom line, I don't plan on intentionally increasing my stitches per inch, the 18-22/inch range gives me good enough resolution for all designs I've tried and, it's a range that I can hit without measuring.
Based on this little test, one could probably hit 35-40 stitches/lines per inch, but the only utility for me might be for a rim treatment or maybe a border. At that point though you loose the illusion of being a woven basket, but still would have a nifty beaded form. I've seen others use line density to great effect.
Here are three densities. Didn't try to hit a specific count, that is next to impossible, just tried to hit my "normal" spacing, increase it to a point that I felt was right at the limits of coloring, and then try to burn as close as possible while still maintaining white space. I added in the black marker lines showing an inch spacing.
The top 3 are my typical spacing counted at 19-20 spaces/stitches per inch. I colored in a few alternate stitches to show limitations of the ink markers I use.
The middle came out to 25-26 per inch. At this spacing I can still color the cells without bleeding over the lines.
The last is 35-35 per inch. Doable with the burning tip, but wouldn't be able to color with the nibs I use, but could probably modify the nib a little to make it work. Of course, I'd be certifiable to try a whole basket. One issue with this density is the tiniest slip/miss spacing is very obvious. Look at the middle row on the right side where I got them a little too close together.
BTW, the thickness of the burning tip is 1/64" (.0156").
The three sets of densities. The beads are 1/8".
The piece in my hand for a little scale.
The nib I use in Copic markers. This nib comes as a rounded point, but I sand it to more of a spear point to reach down the sides of the beads.
Bottom line, I don't plan on intentionally increasing my stitches per inch, the 18-22/inch range gives me good enough resolution for all designs I've tried and, it's a range that I can hit without measuring.
Based on this little test, one could probably hit 35-40 stitches/lines per inch, but the only utility for me might be for a rim treatment or maybe a border. At that point though you loose the illusion of being a woven basket, but still would have a nifty beaded form. I've seen others use line density to great effect.
There's also that one on the thing called the National Mall - The National Museum of the American Indian.
This is a great reference Tim!
I know you don’t use an index wheel, but if you wanted to tighten the spacing up yet still have the “natural” or “freehand” look, I’d think you could use the wheel for guidelines then just split the difference or even put 2-3 burn marks in between. When I notice a spacing issue, I typically skip one line then just split the difference. I’d think using that same concept would work well for keeping your lines per inch consistent yet still maintaining the most realistic look.
What burn setting did you use on your sample? I’ve found the lower settings to allow for the finest lines, but man it takes a lot longer.
Would you mind sharing your tips on sanding the points of the Copic markers, and how do the tips hold up compared to the Faber Castell Pitt pens? I’ve been thinking about trying those for awhile now.
working in old houses you could find strange things. In 40s Aluminum-magnesium smelters and a naval depot was built here, along with Geiger air force base- now Fairchild and Spokane International. We were out of zero's range- thus the base.
Housing was needed badly for huge influx of workers, so they started converting mansions into apartments. Fast forward to late 80s and 90s these were being converted back into mansions. a lot of them were built around old horse tracks which got converted to parks. very desirable property.
we were doing plaster repair as they took walls and drywall off and we repaired. General was not good about realizing the significance of historical stuff. This house was 2 houses down from Clark mansion. Doc that owned it was young and very passionate about restoration- not rebuild new. Came in one morning and they had demoed entry and great room ceilings. General asked me if he should just take plaster which had lots of holes down. I looked at him in awe. Probably the most elaborate frescoes I have seen in a home here. I laughed and said, I will call the doc. Him and wife came down. The general asked him same question. And told him that is what they did in big bedroom with all the old ceiling paintings. The look on their faces was epic. He got rid of him and hired someone else. we carefully restored plaster and he brought someone in to repaint, crazy russian couple but the were good and fun to work with. turned into a little jewel just down from The big Spokane Jewel- clark mansion.
A couple of thoughts ...
I don't remember who said this to me, but the message stuck: sometimes "the most realistic" is not the same thing as "the most accurate".
Just like Picasso's sketches of cows (or Dali's sketch of Don Quixote, one of my favourites), which are far from accurate to life, but deliver the message from artist to viewer perfectly. And since we are talking about an illusion, the message is more important than how the message is transmitted.
Tim - thanks for experimenting with spacing, and for sharing the results. My eye/brain prefers the first two line densities over the most tightly packed one, which I don't think has the basket illusion to the same degree as your regular spacing. I haven't figured out why that is.
This has been a great walk down a path that as a woodturner I find fascinating - considering the artistic vision and choices we make to actualize our idea. Thanks @trc65 and @Arn213 for this dialog.
Thanks Steve. I'll respond a little more fully in a day or two, up against last minute cooking today.
In short, I do use the "skip and fill", or "split the difference" method quite a bit, especially when I run up against an already colored block of cells and have an odd space left.
On the block of maple above I used a setting just a little bit under 4 on the burner. On different woods I've gone as low as 3 for the beads. The range is probably between 3.75 and 4.25 for 90% of the beading. If I get "in the groove" may go a little higher for speed.
When it comes to rim and using a rounded, or small skew I'm all over the place on settings. Low if I'm making short, precise, slow lines, as high as 5 if I'm quickly filling in and moving quickly.
In a couple days when things slow down, I'll take some pictures and show how I sand down and shape the Copic nibs. I've not tried any other pens so can't comment on the FC Pitt pens. Also, if I'm remembering names correctly, the procedure I use is one that Bill Boehme over on the AAW site described several years ago. I've got links to several threads over there and I'll post those as well.
Great big ditto! I've got lots to add to your comments, but no time until after Christmas, will definitely be back to expand later.
Enjoy it my friend- merry Christmas!
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- #31
The day is getting away, like Xmas can’t get here fast enough. I wanted to thank everyone especially, Tim @trc65 for sharing the process and the methodology, but more importantly creating these beautiful works of art, posting it here and letting us enjoy the inception to it’s completion. Without you, this thread would never exist and us not have anything to discuss. I edited the thread title to reflect the content of this thread to “Basket Bowl at The MET NY + Tim @trc65 Illusion Basket”. This way we give credits to where it is due and for future reference. This is like having a “masterclass” and I become a student taking a seat to absorb everything like a sponge.
@duncsuss - that is great parallelism draw and reference. That is great post as it embodies wisdom, thought provoking quotes and digging deep in a cerebral manner that “sparks a fire”. Frank @2feathers Creative Making you made a great call on the spacing and Tim just confirmed that with an exercise and his multiple post of multiple exhibit showcase.
Everyone’s feedback is important and it is like working in collaboration, expanding ideas back and forth, finding issues and finding a way to resolve those issues. You think about it, that it is a luxury to have creative folks to give feedback (creative and constructive) as those exist in team type environment.
@duncsuss - that is great parallelism draw and reference. That is great post as it embodies wisdom, thought provoking quotes and digging deep in a cerebral manner that “sparks a fire”. Frank @2feathers Creative Making you made a great call on the spacing and Tim just confirmed that with an exercise and his multiple post of multiple exhibit showcase.
Everyone’s feedback is important and it is like working in collaboration, expanding ideas back and forth, finding issues and finding a way to resolve those issues. You think about it, that it is a luxury to have creative folks to give feedback (creative and constructive) as those exist in team type environment.
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- #32
@Steve in VA (+ @trc65)- I also found a more modernize iteration of this basket bowl (more of a vase) at The Met. It is sublime and when I saw this (smitten by it), I thought about the wood mosaics that you patiently create. I could picture your version with a twist, devoid of the original ingredients of black ash, sweet grass and synthetic dye by this artist. It has visual and color texture. He uses a split complimentary color scheme that gives this piece a color dynamic with some earth tones. The visual texture is striking. Most composition in general when using texture usually sits at the same “plane”- the texture on this has the inferred movement that it wants to move away from that curved plane. The split complimentary add colors to that already present dynamic. I took some good pictures with dimensions. I don’t know what category to post it in, but it is a must see. It is sublime IMHO.
Right here would be a start
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- #34
It is very different from this traditional basket post- it is a very modern iteration/version. I was actually surprised to see newer (1978) piece like this and the modernistic style for this museum. This belongs more in MoMA. That is the reason I don’t want to post it here because there are no ink line patterns and moving away from the traditional basket method.
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- #35
Tim @trc65 - I had a couple of hours to kill before a show this evening, so I went back and got photo’s of this piece to show the top view and more correct center dimension. I also found more of these baskets under the exhibit “Art of Native America”. I will post those selected pieces and I took dimensions as well as
time will allow……
time will allow……
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- #37
These are the other pieces- I have detailed shots (and measurements) and will post it when I get the chance:
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WOW! That is truly spectacular!
The colors, texture and shadows on this piece are sublime.
P.s. thanks for the additional pictures and measurements. That design is really growing on me, going to start looking for a piece of wood and get another illusion piece started soon.
The colors, texture and shadows on this piece are sublime.
P.s. thanks for the additional pictures and measurements. That design is really growing on me, going to start looking for a piece of wood and get another illusion piece started soon.
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- #39
I’ll get the photo’s sorted through as the close up pics actually shows the pieces really well. I will post them and tag you. I will post the actually gallery exhibit in the general museum thread, but the basket pieces I will put all here for reference. I took a lot of panels too that shows pattern and color in detail that they use. I would imagine those transferred into the baskets or vice versa. It is amazing work and you can see how pattern, texture, nature, color depicted their culture and heritage through symbolism and story telling.
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- #40
This little purple and teal number probably is my favorite because of the way it was adorned with materials, color and texture:
Post #40 I have updated it and noted it was edited; photo’s with dimensions of the purple and teal gift basket by Lytton Springs.
Post #40 I have updated it and noted it was edited; photo’s with dimensions of the purple and teal gift basket by Lytton Springs.
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