# Newbie with questions about stabilized wood



## stephen45710 (Jan 6, 2019)

i’m
New here, so I apologize for the basic questions to follow. I’m an amateur luthier and I’ve primarily worked with oak, cherry, walnut, and maple for banjo rims and necks. I’ve used rosewood, ebony, and richlite for fretboards. For banjos, it is common to use the same wood for fretboard, peghead veneer (where the tuners attach at the end of the neck), and rim cap (accent wood covering veneers on the rim). I’ve been mesmerized by the beauty of some of the stabilized pen blanks I see on this site. I’m only vaguely familiar with the stabilization process and what is involved with adding some of the brilliant colors I see (or just the filling of voids on brilliant burls). 

Most of the stabilized pieces I see are small. Is it possible to make make larger pieces? How difficult is it to saw, route, sand stabilized wood? 

Lighter color woods are sometimes avoided for fretboards because they show wear/dirt from fingers over the years. Would stabilized light color woods show wear in similar way? 

the sizes I need: 
fretboard 2”x20” x 3/16
Peghead veneer 4” x 8” x 1/8
Rim cap stock 8 pieces each 1.5” x 5" x 1/8"

For those who stabilize wood, could a matching set be created? Would the wood be hard and resistant to wear and finger oils? Easy enough to cut and press frets into? Machine easily on the router table and band saw?

Thanks for any and all thoughts...


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## Tony (Jan 6, 2019)

I do not stabilize but have worked with some stabilized wood. It does make the wood denser, the resin basically fills all the voids, you pull a vacuum on it forcing the resin into the material. It is possible to do large pieces, just have to have a bigger chamber. Most people don't do big pieces because of cost. @Schroedc has large chambers I believe. It works the same, a bit harder naturally. I think the process would help make it more fingerprint resistant. Good luck in your learning, please ask any and all questions you have! Tony

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Sprung (Jan 6, 2019)

Stabilized wood is no problem to cut or sand. I can't saw how it will react to use with a router, as I have not tried to route stabilized wood. But I've turned a lot of it with carbide tooling on my lathe. It turns/machines very well. In smaller pieces, I generally prefer to work with stabilized woods. Casting is a whole different process which fills visible voids. Stabilizing you're basically removing the air from the wood and replacing that with resin - sometimes clear resin, sometimes dyed.

As far as larger pieces go, they're not often done for two reasons:
1. Large items can use a LOT of resin. And resin isn't cheap.
2. To do large items, you need a large stabilizing chamber. And, since the resin is heat cured, you need a large enough oven to cure it in. I have a large chamber that would allow me to do pieces up to about 20" long in it, but I'm realistically limited to about 14" to 15" in length, which is the longest I'm capable of fitting into my oven (actually, an electric smoker) for curing.

It certainly would make softer woods more wear resistant, but can still show dirt/oil staining. I've even applied dyes as a surface treatment to an already stabilized piece with good results, so, yes, it would be possible for it to be stained from dirt/oil like any piece.

Of the sizes you need, the 2nd and 3rd items just about anyone with a stabilizing chamber can handle stabilizing those. The fretboard will be more challenging as you have to find someone who has both a vacuum chamber and oven large enough to handle it.

If you need a large piece stabilized, I would talk to @Schroedc - he has an even larger chamber than I do and runs a standard kitchen oven for curing blanks, so he can do larger pieces than I can.

Any other questions, don't hesitate to ask. There's a good number of us here who have experience with stabilizing. I've enjoyed stabilizing, especially double and multi dyed items, and I used to run 4 vacuum chambers, though I'm down to three right now and will soon be stepping down to just two as I'm not doing as much stabilizing work as I used to.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Echoashtoreth (Jan 6, 2019)

You wont see any issues working thd stabilized wood.... BUT i think the resin [basically being an epoxy plastic] might cause issues w the sound transference... most luthier woods are very dense, straifht grain for that reason, right? Resonance? The woods that are stabilized are treated because they are too soft, pecky, decomposed (lending visuals like spalting) to be used for knife handles, calls etc.... when u tap on a pc of ebony or desert ironwood u get a tone... when u do that to most stabilized you get a much duller sound.... sticking to the buckeyes (more solid before stabilizing) will probably yield a better end result for sound transition....

Not saying you cant use stabilized but you might need to think about what pcs need to have that resonance.... and that might make your shopping list easier! If you want i would be happy to send u some scraps that you could play with and, hopefully, prove me wrong!

Sarah

Reactions: Like 3


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## Schroedc (Jan 7, 2019)

Stabilized woods tend to be harder and more brittle, they will machine well with sharp tools but they will stain like any other woods. While stabilization does make them harder and more workable, they can be brittle so if they were going be under tension they are going to be more prone to cracking than a straight grained dense wood. they are also not going to transfer sound as well. tend to be more a thunk, than a ringing tone when you whack on them.

I do have the ability to do pieces up to about 3 inches long but would need some lead time as I need to make sure I have enough resin on hand and if you wanted it dyed the cost would go quite high as you have to dye the entire batch of resin and at 80.00 a gallon and 3-4 gallons minimum to fill a larger chamber it's a big investment.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## stephen45710 (Jan 7, 2019)

@Schroedc, @Echoashtoreth @Sprung @Tony 

Thank you everyone for your quick and thorough responses, I really appreciate the information and help. I learned a couple of things. First, I need to read up on the difference between casting and stabilizing. I think I realize now that casting is the process that yields the very colorful blanks I'm seeing. Second, it sounds like the stabilized wood would not be good for a fretboard because of tone and brittleness. Third, I realize that these processes must be fairly expensive and labor intensive. Maybe the place to start is with a piece I could use as a peghead veneer or rim cap. I'll look around and post some pictures of something that I think would work and see if someone would be interested in creating the size I need. Thanks.


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## DaveHawk (Jan 7, 2019)

I'm not a fan of resins used for stabilization. I prefer a type of wood hardner. That saturates the wood during the stabilizing process. 
The darker pot calls had just come out , the lighter calls came out last night and were dry for finial shaping and sanding today.

Reactions: EyeCandy! 1 | Way Cool 1 | Informative 1


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## stephen45710 (Jan 7, 2019)

DaveHawk said:


> I'm not a fan of resins used for stabilization. I prefer a type of wood hardner. That saturates the wood during the stabilizing process.
> The darker pot calls had just come out , the lighter calls came out last night and were dry for finial shaping and sanding today.
> 
> View attachment 158445
> ...


 I really like that marbled look! What kind of wood is this?


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## stephen45710 (Jan 7, 2019)

After poking around I think a logical way for me to start is to find a stabilized or cast "call blank" that is at least 1.5" square by 5". I can slice this and bookmatch it for a peghead veneer (actually a couple of them). If I found a couple similar in color I could slice them into the 8 segments that I use to create a rim cap. I'll keep my eye on the wood for sale forum.

Reactions: Like 1


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## gman2431 (Jan 7, 2019)

DaveHawk said:


> I'm not a fan of resins used for stabilization. I prefer a type of wood hardner. That saturates the wood during the stabilizing process.



Could you elaborate more on this? 

As I've known, under vacuum and pulling all the air out, no resin really penetrates. Once vacuum is off the resin fills the cells that dont have air. I know when pulling vacuum on mine I wont loose resin until vac is released and a week long soak. 

You see a loss in whatever is in tank during vacuum?


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## Arn213 (Jan 7, 2019)

Resin is a known ingredient used to dampen sound or use as a sound barrier (carpets, paneling, etc.) in vehicles and buildings. I wouldn’t want it on my musical instrument if I want the sound to transmit and vibrate freely. The only area where it is somewhat acceptable is for a solid body electric guitar tops (1/4” laminate or a carved top) or electric guitar bass tops that has pickups and plugged into an amplifier- for aesthetics or decorative application which are mostly used on burl wood. I know a luthier who actually sells 1/4” book-match sets that is a pretty penny- they are all western bigleaf maple burl with multiple dyes applied. Are they worth the $$$? To me personally for my own application which is a decorative burl top glued into a body wood substrate with the ability for me to do multi-color stained and used a “hardener” and a finish it would be a fraction of a cost versus getting one of those sets.

I would pass on it for fretboard material- can you imagine the daunting task of refretting worrying about the brittleness and chipping of the stabilized wood? I rather see fingermarks on a fretboard because it tells me that the instrument is being played and serving it’s purpose to the user. It is a functional musical instrument and not a decorative piece that hangs on the wall for people to look at and admire.

The only place I would probably use it are for tuner buttons, truss rod cover, etc., basically small areas that don’t interfere with “coupling” and “sound energy transfer”.

Reactions: Like 2


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## DaveHawk (Jan 7, 2019)

stephen45710 said:


> I really like that marbled look! What kind of wood is this?


Spalted maple with birdseye, curl / burl

Reactions: Like 1


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## stephen45710 (Jan 7, 2019)

Arn213 said:


> Resin is a known ingredient used to dampen sound or use as a sound barrier (carpets, paneling, etc.) in vehicles and buildings. I wouldn’t want it on my musical instrument if I want the sound to transmit and vibrate freely. The only area where it is somewhat acceptable is for a solid body electric guitar tops (1/4” laminate or a carved top) or electric guitar bass tops that has pickups and plugged into an amplifier- for aesthetics or decorative application which are mostly used on burl wood. I know a luthier who actually sells 1/4” book-match sets that is a pretty penny- they are all western bigleaf maple burl with multiple dyes applied. Are they worth the $$$? To me personally for my own application which is a decorative burl top glued into a body wood substrate with the ability for me to do multi-color stained and used a “hardener” and a finish it would be a fraction of a cost versus getting one of those sets.
> 
> I would pass on it for fretboard material- can you imagine the daunting task of refretting worrying about the brittleness and chipping of the stabilized wood? I rather see fingermarks on a fretboard because it tells me that the instrument is being played and serving it’s purpose to the user. It is a functional musical instrument and not a decorative piece that hangs on the wall for people to look at and admire.
> 
> The only place I would probably use it are for tuner buttons, truss rod cover, etc., basically small areas that don’t interfere with “coupling” and “sound energy transfer”.



While I acknowledge Richlite is not universally endorsed and there are luthiers who dislike it, it certainly used by luthiers; sold by several luthier suppliers. I have used it in the past with success.

From Wikipedia:
*Paper composite panels* are a phenolic resin/cellulose composite material made from partially recycled paper and phenolic resin. Multiple layers of paper are soaked in phenolic resin, then molded and baked into net shape in a heated form or press. Originally distributed as a commercial kitchen surface in the 1950s, it has recently been adapted for use in skateboard parks as well as various other applications, such as residential counters, cabinetry, fiberglass cores, guitar fingerboards, signage, exterior wall cladding, and a variety of architectural applications.

Since the last quarter of the 20th century, phenolic resin and cellulose based compound materials have been used as an alternative to ebony and rosewood to make stringed instrument fingerboards.[2] From 2012, Gibson Guitar Corporation replaced the ebony fingerboard on the production _Custom_ with paper composite panels (Richlite).

Based on previous replies I concede that a solid piece of resin stabilized wooden fretboard may be brittle whereas Richlite is multiple layers. However, at least on a banjo I don't think resin stabilized peghead veneer or rim cap would have a noticeable impact on sound. 

I'm not a great player, but here is a video of me playing a Richlite fretboard on a banjo I built. I don't believe it would sound different if it had a ebony fretboard. However, it would sound better with a better player .

Reactions: Way Cool 2


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## Arn213 (Jan 7, 2019)

stephen45710 said:


> While I acknowledge Richlite is not universally endorsed and there are luthiers who dislike it, it certainly used by luthiers; sold by several luthier suppliers. I have used it in the past with success.
> 
> From Wikipedia:
> *Paper composite panels* are a phenolic resin/cellulose composite material made from partially recycled paper and phenolic resin. Multiple layers of paper are soaked in phenolic resin, then molded and baked into net shape in a heated form or press. Originally distributed as a commercial kitchen surface in the 1950s, it has recently been adapted for use in skateboard parks as well as various other applications, such as residential counters, cabinetry, fiberglass cores, guitar fingerboards, signage, exterior wall cladding, and a variety of architectural applications.
> ...



It is actually not just luthiers but, guitar players too. There are advantages and disadvantages. I know this for a fact, the real wood ebony will suffer some kind of shrinkage and checking through it’s lifetime if not properly hydrated or stored in a climate controlled with a 50% relative humidity. So I know what to expect what this ebony wood material will do and how to go about repairing it when it does. As for Richlite- well, it is a new material and it is not true and time tested, there are many “what if’s” in the beginning space of it’s life in how it would hold up. I would be interested to know how this material will perform when the guitar needs a whole refret. Some questions to ponder. Why would G*bson use it on a higher end instrument and Mart*n guitars use it for lower priced instrument? G*bson states that it cost them more to make a guitar out of richlite. Who does that benefit, the company or the end user? If you ever follow the guitar market, 2012 or any other year that Gibs*n with Richlite is not as sought after year which lowers it’s resale value as there is a certain stigma that follows it.

No one is stopping you from using any material you see fit and what especially works for you. I can’t tell you either whether what an ebony fretboard would sound compared to the richlite fretboard that you build- you could build one with real ebony wood and then you can compare them side by side to see what check the boxes.

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## DaveHawk (Jan 8, 2019)

Arnold mypot calls are musical instruments. You hit the nail on th he head ! I've used Minwax wood hardner and a acrylic hardener. They both work good.


gman2431 said:


> Could you elaborate more on this?
> 
> As I've known, under vacuum and pulling all the air out, no resin really penetrates. Once vacuum is off the resin fills the cells that dont have air. I know when pulling vacuum on mine I wont loose resin until vac is released and a week long soak.
> 
> You see a loss in whatever is in tank during vacuum?


I'll lose anywhere from 1/4 " to 1/2" of material for 6 calls. The material dosn't fill holes but changes the fibers of the wood . After 2 to 3 hours stabilizing and overnight drying the soft pink wood is now hard and ready for finial turning and finishing.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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