# Birch/Tamarack layered bow?



## Boreal Jim

Hello. I'm Jim.
New here and also new to bow making. I am looking for someone with experience to perhaps give me a few pointers as to how to go about choosing the right type of bow (recurve or long) and right type of native wood (layering etc.) to craft a bow I can use to hunt prey as large as moose.

The hardest woods I have growing on this land are birch and tamarack. I am very focused on using only native wood. Others available are black spruce, grey pine and aspen. 

Is it possible to make a 50 lbs bow? 

Thanks for your time and help.
Jim.

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## ripjack13

@Byron Barker makes long bows.....

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## Boreal Jim

ripjack13 said:


> @Byron Barker makes long bows.....


Thanks very much for tip.
I will let him approach me if he wishes to help. Don't want to be a nuisance to anyone.

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## ripjack13

And I think @Bill12035 may have some research info to help out....

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## Boreal Jim

ripjack13 said:


> And I think @Bill12035 may have some research info to help out....


To be clear I have much to learn.
But I want to state that I have much experience in bushcraft, have all the tools necessary and know how to use them alright.

What I truly need is the experience.
The knowledge.

It's the attention to detail that make a perfect bow.
It's the soul you put into it.
This bow will feed my family. 
I am not one to skimp on a first try.

I am willing to learn from others mistakes and my ultimate goal is to craft a good bow on the first try.

This might sound a little arrogant but it's not.

I am a firm believer in a good plan before any type of execution.

This bow will be made the same way I make everything:

With confidence behind my cut.

Therefore I need all the knowledge I can absorb before even grabbing a draw knife.

Cheers.

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## ripjack13

Boreal Jim said:


> Thanks very much for tip.
> I will let him approach me if he wishes to help. Don't want to be a nuisance to anyone.



I tagged em, so if he sees it, he may say something....

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## Eric Rorabaugh

@Boreal Jim


Boreal Jim said:


> I will let him approach me if he wishes to help. Don't want to be a nuisance to anyone.


Jim, FYI...you aren't a nuisance. Everyone here at WB help others if we can.
You can see where people's names are in red, that will notify them that they were mentioned in a post and they will respond usually. If you need to do this, type the @ sign and the first few letters of their name. A list will pop up and you can choose who you want to tag. Hope this helps but don't feel you are a nuisance. Heck, if that's the case, I would always be a nuisance!

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Funny 1


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## Boreal Jim

Eric Rorabaugh said:


> @Boreal Jim
> 
> Jim, FYI...you aren't a nuisance. Everyone here at WB help others if we can.
> You can see where people's names are in red, that will notify them that they were mentioned in a post and they will respond usually. If you need to do this, type the @ sign and the first few letters of their name. A list will pop up and you can choose who you want to tag. Hope this helps but don't feel you are a nuisance. Heck, if that's the case, I would always be a nuisance!



That's really comforting. I know when to humble myself and when it comes to bow making I'm a total newbie.

I have a thousand questions but I don't want to overwhelm anyone.

That's sort of what I meant by nuisance.
I need someone that has the time to answer.

So it's better I wait for the right person to approach me.

If I have learned anything, it's that it is the master who chooses his students.

Not vice versa 

Have a great day!

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## ClintW

A good start may be to look into what the native tribes in the area used to make bows long ago. Sometimes some small bush like plants can be used for top notch bows if they right piece is found.

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## Boreal Jim

ClintW said:


> A good start may be to look into what the native tribes in the area used to make bows long ago. Sometimes some small bush like plants can be used for top notch bows if they right piece is found.


Great suggestion. Unfortunately the Cree in the area have lost this skill.

At least the ones I know.
They hunt with rifles and quarter up moose with sawsallz.

True traditions have been lost.

I am here to revive them.
If they could make a bow from these trees thousands of years ago:

I can too.

Now that you mention smaller bush like trees. ..
Have tons of green alder too

Wasn't sure if it was good for a bow.


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## ClintW

Maybe there is some chokecherry or Willow? They are somewhat springy woods.


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## Mike1950

Native museum?


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## Boreal Jim

Mike1950 said:


> Native museum?


They used birch and tamarack.


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## Karl_TN

@Boreal Jim, It might help other if you defined what you meant by 'native wood'. For instance, it this only wood from native trees found only on your property, or can it be any native trees in Quebec, Canada or North America? Just wondering since you hadn't listed many hardwoods.

You might also want to check out this site on primitive archery if you haven't seen it yet:
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php

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## Bill12035

@Boreal Jim I was looking for an Osage Orange stave to try to make a bow but I have never made one and don't have any experience in making one. There is a really good 4 part series of videos on youtube called Master Bow Builder Series. There are also many others on bow making that are very good. Sorry I can't help anymore than that. Good luck.

Bill

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## Byron Barker

Ask the guys on Primitive Archer. Yellow Birch can make make a very fine bow, but it isn't really a beginner wood if you are trying to get a 50lbs bow out of it. Natives used green spruce limbs until they dried out. If you have juniper, that would be the way to go with a birch baking strip or a rawhide one. If I was in your position, I wouldn't try a recurve until you get a longbow down. Longbows shoot more accurately as well. You should aim for a bow at least as tall as you for starters. Get a large diameter clean log of yellow birch (should be easy!), split it into staves, let them dry for a year minimum. The larger the log the better since a longbow design will benefit from less of a curve in the growth rings. Too round a curve will present problems. Go online and ask for a longbow design measurements from someone who has made a yellow birch bow on Primitive Archer. You need a wood specific design since all wood has different density. Birch is pretty dense, so my guess is an ash longbow design would work just fine. After you have your design, GO SLOW! Be sure to remove ZERO wood from the back of the bow (just remove the bark) as you will need one unviolated growth ring on that side to keep it from blowing up. After you are about midway through tillering (maybe at 20inches) get a heat gun or just a charcoal fire going and gently roast the belly of the bow (the side that will face you) for around an hour making sure it NEVER turns black. Just like roasting a marshmallow. Take your time and slide the limb back and forth above the coals, never allowing it to rest long in one spot or you'll burn the wood. Give it a few days afterwords to recover and then go back to tillering it out. You will have a good bow that handles compression better than before due to the roasting process. It will also take less set. If you are concerned about it more, get some rawhide and back the back with a strip of it. The process for this is super simple and can be found online. I personally feel the safest design for beginners and for woods that are not premium bow woods is to use a pyramid design. They are simple to make, they balance compressive and tensive forces in the wood and they shoot surprisingly well. The only thing I don't like about them is that they are quite bulky. I understand it would be more difficult perhaps to hunt with a longbow, but most shorter design bows require either uncomfortable or difficult firing techniques or a lot of knowhow into mixing natural materials that can take a really long time to get down. You just can't get the draw length you need to get a stable anchoring point on your face with a short bow. This makes shooting less accurate. If I found some juniper where you were, I would make a sinew-backed juniper bow that was reflexed with static tips like Ishi made. They hammer, they are light and they are super short. Chuck Leoffler (Heart Wood Bows) has a video online detailing an Ishi-styled bow start to finish in a six part video series. If you get ambitious, go for it. Let me know how it goes or if you need anything,

Reactions: Like 1 | Thank You! 1 | Great Post 3 | Way Cool 1 | Informative 4


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## Mr. Peet

Boreal Jim said:


> Hello. I'm Jim.
> New here and also new to bow making. I am looking for someone with experience to perhaps give me a few pointers as to how to go about choosing the right type of bow (recurve or long) and right type of native wood (layering etc.) to craft a bow I can use to hunt prey as large as moose.
> 
> The hardest woods I have growing on this land are birch and tamarack. I am very focused on using only native wood. Others available are black spruce, grey pine and aspen.
> 
> Is it possible to make a 50 lbs bow?
> 
> Thanks for your time and help.
> Jim.



Hi Jim,

What is another name for grey pine? The only US 'grey pine' I know is Californian 'Digger pine'. I wondered if you meant grey birch...

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## Blueglass

If you could post your progress pics I'd be very interested. I also understand you might be like me and mean to take pics but get caught up in the work and hardly eve remember to take pics.

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## ripjack13

http://www.primitivearcher.com/

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## Byron Barker

I also recall most primitive bows made in Scandinavia were traditionally birch-backed compression pine laminated with hide glue. I'd imagine those ingredients would be a easy thing for you to source and it should work phenomenally well. You need to research a bit how to ID conifers that have compression wood in them before going about doing it though. Any conifer will do, although compression pine was traditionally most often used.

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## Byron Barker

http://northernwildernesskills.blogspot.tw/2010/10/fenno-ugric-bow.html

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## Boreal Jim

Byron Barker said:


> Ask the guys on Primitive Archer. Yellow Birch can make make a very fine bow, but it isn't really a beginner wood if you are trying to get a 50lbs bow out of it. Natives used green spruce limbs until they dried out. If you have juniper, that would be the way to go with a birch baking strip or a rawhide one. If I was in your position, I wouldn't try a recurve until you get a longbow down. Longbows shoot more accurately as well. You should aim for a bow at least as tall as you for starters. Get a large diameter clean log of yellow birch (should be easy!), split it into staves, let them dry for a year minimum. The larger the log the better since a longbow design will benefit from less of a curve in the growth rings. Too round a curve will present problems. Go online and ask for a longbow design measurements from someone who has made a yellow birch bow on Primitive Archer. You need a wood specific design since all wood has different density. Birch is pretty dense, so my guess is an ash longbow design would work just fine. After you have your design, GO SLOW! Be sure to remove ZERO wood from the back of the bow (just remove the bark) as you will need one unviolated growth ring on that side to keep it from blowing up. After you are about midway through tillering (maybe at 20inches) get a heat gun or just a charcoal fire going and gently roast the belly of the bow (the side that will face you) for around an hour making sure it NEVER turns black. Just like roasting a marshmallow. Take your time and slide the limb back and forth above the coals, never allowing it to rest long in one spot or you'll burn the wood. Give it a few days afterwords to recover and then go back to tillering it out. You will have a good bow that handles compression better than before due to the roasting process. It will also take less set. If you are concerned about it more, get some rawhide and back the back with a strip of it. The process for this is super simple and can be found online. I personally feel the safest design for beginners and for woods that are not premium bow woods is to use a pyramid design. They are simple to make, they balance compressive and tensive forces in the wood and they shoot surprisingly well. The only thing I don't like about them is that they are quite bulky. I understand it would be more difficult perhaps to hunt with a longbow, but most shorter design bows require either uncomfortable or difficult firing techniques or a lot of knowhow into mixing natural materials that can take a really long time to get down. You just can't get the draw length you need to get a stable anchoring point on your face with a short bow. This makes shooting less accurate. If I found some juniper where you were, I would make a sinew-backed juniper bow that was reflexed with static tips like Ishi made. They hammer, they are light and they are super short. Chuck Leoffler (Heart Wood Bows) has a video online detailing an Ishi-styled bow start to finish in a six part video series. If you get ambitious, go for it. Let me know how it goes or if you need anything,



Thank you so much for such a detailed answer. I believe you covered most of the questions I had and perhaps more. I have been playing around with green black spruce bows and have found them to be extremely springy. Very good compression. I sincerely believe I could achieve a 50 lbs draw on one I would work well. Thing is, as you said, when it dries I'll have to make another. I'm looking into making a bow that will last years so I decided to go with birch.

I do have yellow birch here but they are hard to find. (Have tons of white birch but im a little far north for yellow to thrive) The ones I've seen on my land tend to be on the smaller size. But the good news is that most of those I've seen could make a decent staff. Straight grain, no knots or bends etc.

I'm aware I will probably have to do a backing on it. Sinew could be a possibility but if I can achieve the same effect with another wood I would rather that.

I forgot to mention we have hemlock here. (Conifer not plant.)

I have hemlock beams supporting my entire house, so I have a feeling it might make a decent backing though I have no experience to be sure.

Anyone have suggestions or comments?


I want to take the time to thank all of you who have participated on this thread. I'm learning lots of good stuff from this amazing melting pot of knowledge.

Will be picking my birch staff in the next couple days. Will post pic here to see if I've chosen well.

Your opinions are like gold to me.

Peace.
Jim

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## Boreal Jim

Mr. Peet said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> What is another name for grey pine? The only US 'grey pine' I know is Californian 'Digger pine'. I wondered if you meant grey birch...



I'm not sure if it's grey pine. I might have misidentified. Here's a pic.


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## sprucegum

I know nothing about bow making but tamarack is very common here and I have used a lot of it for various projects. It might be worth experimenting with. It is pretty strong and will take quite a bend without breaking. I have split quite a bit for firewood and knot free sections split pretty clean. The Abenaki people called it hackmatack which means wood used for snowshoes.

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## Boreal Jim

sprucegum said:


> I know nothing about bow making but tamarack is very common here and I have used a lot of it for various projects. It might be worth experimenting with. It is pretty strong and will take quite a bend without breaking. I have split quite a bit for firewood and knot free sections split pretty clean. The Abenaki people called it hackmatack which means wood used for snowshoes.



I have noticed the same things about tamarack. It's a very hard softwood. Harder than many hardwoods. Burns very hot and doesn't rot even underground or underwater.

Amazing tree.
Nature's treated lumber


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## Mr. Peet

Boreal Jim said:


> I'm not sure if it's grey pine. I might have misidentified. Here's a pic.
> 
> View attachment 145492



Looks like 'Jack pine', sometimes called 'Banks pine', _Pinus banksiana_. The curved cones and short needles look right... I think that was the one so precious to the Kirtlands warbler..

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## Boreal Jim

Jack pine is also known as grey pine or pin gris.

http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/jack_pine.htm

So I suppose that in this case there is two types of grey pine. 

The California and Jack.


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## Mike1950

sprucegum said:


> I know nothing about bow making but tamarack is very common here and I have used a lot of it for various projects. It might be worth experimenting with. It is pretty strong and will take quite a bend without breaking. I have split quite a bit for firewood and knot free sections split pretty clean. The Abenaki people called it hackmatack which means wood used for snowshoes.



tamarack here is an Indian name for western larch- loses its needles in fall- tall straight with flakey bark.

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## Byron Barker

You wouldn't normally want to use a conifer short of juniper or incense cedar (is yew conifer? I forget) for a lasting bow. They don't normally handle compression or tension well enough to make a high poundage bow. Compression conifer is totally different and can be used as the belly of a bow since the cellulose formed in a tilted conifer tree is much more similar to horn than wood. It needs a backing though and will act weird if there is a lot of moisture in the air. Other wood you might have around are cultivated fruit and nut trees. Apple, plum, pear and crab apple are fantastic. Black cherry can be used with caution and a rawhide backing. Black Walnut is good in northern ranges. Another option, just pick up a hickory board from your local wood shop. The stuff is quite nearly indestructible. Here is some additional infor about compression wood since it is likely a good option in your area: https://lintukoto.wordpress.com/2010/04/17/lyly-or-compression-wood/

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## sprucegum

Byron Barker said:


> You wouldn't normally want to use a conifer short of juniper or incense cedar (is yew conifer? I forget) for a lasting bow. They don't normally handle compression or tension well enough to make a high poundage bow. Compression conifer is totally different and can be used as the belly of a bow since the cellulose formed in a tilted conifer tree is much more similar to horn than wood. It needs a backing though and will act weird if there is a lot of moisture in the air. Other wood you might have around are cultivated fruit and nut trees. Apple, plum, pear and crab apple are fantastic. Black cherry can be used with caution and a rawhide backing. Black Walnut is good in northern ranges. Another option, just pick up a hickory board from your local wood shop. The stuff is quite nearly indestructible. Here is some additional infor about compression wood since it is likely a good option in your area: https://lintukoto.wordpress.com/2010/04/17/lyly-or-compression-wood/



Although tamaracks qualities are conifer like and probably not a great choice for a bow it is actually a deciduous.


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## Boreal Jim

Byron Barker said:


> You wouldn't normally want to use a conifer short of juniper or incense cedar (is yew conifer? I forget) for a lasting bow. They don't normally handle compression or tension well enough to make a high poundage bow. Compression conifer is totally different and can be used as the belly of a bow since the cellulose formed in a tilted conifer tree is much more similar to horn than wood. It needs a backing though and will act weird if there is a lot of moisture in the air. Other wood you might have around are cultivated fruit and nut trees. Apple, plum, pear and crab apple are fantastic. Black cherry can be used with caution and a rawhide backing. Black Walnut is good in northern ranges. Another option, just pick up a hickory board from your local wood shop. The stuff is quite nearly indestructible. Here is some additional infor about compression wood since it is likely a good option in your area: https://lintukoto.wordpress.com/2010/04/17/lyly-or-compression-wood/



Wow I just read the link you gave me and I suppose I'm a lucky guy because I have tons of these leaning trees due to wind. I didn't know about compression wood before this. Really awesome stuff.

So I suppose I will go with a yellow birch and compression wood backing bow. Sounds like the best option for me.

I might sound a little hard headed because I agree that it would be much easier for me to get better hardwoods.

The problem is that it wouldn't be a bow I can make from local trees and that's important to me. I want to be able to show others how it's possible to source a decent hunting bow from local resources.

I think I might have a winning combination here.

I will pick out the bests staves I can find and post pics.

Have a great day!


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## Boreal Jim

sprucegum said:


> Although tamaracks qualities are conifer like and probably not a great choice for a bow it is actually a deciduous.



Yeah the grain tends to twist alot. Rarely find straight grained ones but I've seen em.

They also twist even more as they dry so it's important to put a weight on boards when drying them.

I'm gonna go with a black spruce compression wood backing.

Sounds like best option for me.


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## Mr. Peet

sprucegum said:


> Although tamaracks qualities are conifer like and probably not a great choice for a bow it is actually a deciduous.



Tamaracks are conifer like because they are conifers. As Mike has stated and confirmed by Dave, they are among the few that are deciduous while nearly all others are evergreen. Bald cypress and Dawn-redwood are 2 others that come to mind that share the fall shedding of needles.

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## Mr. Peet

Boreal Jim said:


> Jack pine is also known as grey pine or pin gris.
> 
> http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/jack_pine.htm
> 
> So I suppose that in this case there is two types of grey pine.
> 
> The California and Jack.



Thanks for the link Jim. I just did not have Grey pine in my head for that species, and at this stage, may never, but I will try. Good luck on your bow adventure.

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## Byron Barker

Boreal Jim said:


> Wow I just read the link you gave me and I suppose I'm a lucky guy because I have tons of these leaning trees due to wind. I didn't know about compression wood before this. Really awesome stuff.
> 
> So I suppose I will go with a yellow birch and compression wood backing bow. Sounds like the best option for me.
> 
> I might sound a little hard headed because I agree that it would be much easier for me to get better hardwoods.
> 
> The problem is that it wouldn't be a bow I can make from local trees and that's important to me. I want to be able to show others how it's possible to source a decent hunting bow from local resources.
> 
> I think I might have a winning combination here.
> 
> I will pick out the bests staves I can find and post pics.
> 
> Have a great day!


Yes, you are actually really lucky then because it isn't normal to find it. It is usually grown for the purpose of compression wood. Again, use the compression wood for the belly of the bow, not the backing strip. As in, the compression wood should be facing you when you draw the bow and the birch should simply be a thin layer (maybe 1/8th of an inch) of wood over the top of it to keep it from splintering. You could also use sinew or rawhide if that is easier. FYI, sinew is not easier although rawhide would be. You can make a shorter bow (lets say for starters 62-64'') since this wood combination will hold up quite well. Read that article closely and be careful to ID it correctly or you'll have a giant failure waiting to happen. The stuff is super dense as compared to the wood itself. Usually around .70.


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## Boreal Jim

Byron Barker said:


> Yes, you are actually really lucky then because it isn't normal to find it. It is usually grown for the purpose of compression wood. Again, use the compression wood for the belly of the bow, not the backing strip. As in, the compression wood should be facing you when you draw the bow and the birch should simply be a thin layer (maybe 1/8th of an inch) of wood over the top of it to keep it from splintering. You could also use sinew or rawhide if that is easier. FYI, sinew is not easier although rawhide would be. You can make a shorter bow (lets say for starters 62-64'') since this wood combination will hold up quite well. Read that article closely and be careful to ID it correctly or you'll have a giant failure waiting to happen. The stuff is super dense as compared to the wood itself. Usually around .70.



You are right. It isn't so easy to find. I went to the spruce stand I had seen with leaning trees but I realised they had grown straight and been knocked over by either wind or snow later on.

I didn't find the characteristic red color and the rings weren't on an angle.

I know I've seen others overhanging a stream. I'll check for them tommorow.

Man I thought I had hit the jackpot but it was too good to be true. Quick question. Do you think I could use a big enough limb if I can't come about a trunk? I figured that since they grow horizontally it must be compression wood also nah?

I'll keep you updated as I'll be actively on the lookout in the next days.

Enjoy your evening.


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## sprucegum

One only needs to mill some crooked logs to learn about compression. The saying crooked logs make crooked lumber holds true. I milled a couple crooked fir last week and the lumber is all but unusable. Trees that are partially uprooted when they are small and then over the years try to grow upright are the worst, or in your case the best. Sometimes trees on the edge of a clearing will grow almost horizontal to reach sunlight then grow more upright as they escape the shade, you see this a lot on the edge of lakes and streams.

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Informative 1


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## Boreal Jim

sprucegum said:


> One only needs to mill some crooked logs to learn about compression. The saying crooked logs make crooked lumber holds true. I milled a couple crooked fir last week and the lumber is all but unusable. Trees that are partially uprooted when they are small and then over the years try to grow upright are the worst, or in your case the best. Sometimes trees on the edge of a clearing will grow almost horizontal to reach sunlight then grow more upright as they escape the shade, you see this a lot on the edge of lakes and streams.



That's awesome. I guess I'll have more luck with the ones over the stream. I'm heading out there later. Will update.


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## Byron Barker

Boreal Jim said:


> You are right. It isn't so easy to find. I went to the spruce stand I had seen with leaning trees but I realised they had grown straight and been knocked over by either wind or snow later on.
> 
> I didn't find the characteristic red color and the rings weren't on an angle.
> 
> I know I've seen others overhanging a stream. I'll check for them tommorow.
> 
> Man I thought I had hit the jackpot but it was too good to be true. Quick question. Do you think I could use a big enough limb if I can't come about a trunk? I figured that since they grow horizontally it must be compression wood also nah?
> 
> I'll keep you updated as I'll be actively on the lookout in the next days.
> 
> Enjoy your evening.


Yes, limbs are an easy way to get compression wood, but you will need to use two limbs and splice them at the handle as the majority of the compression wood in a limb is near where it connects to the tree and then it quickly thins out. If you are comfortable splicing, that isn't a problem. A simple 4'' V splice is sufficient for most bows if it is a clean cut on the bandsaw with no gaps. If there are minor gaps, heat the cuts over boiling water (not it) for around 20 minutes, then bind them together without glue tightly with some c clamps. Use some wood thins on the C clamp or else you will damage the splice area. Give it 3 or so days to dry and then glue it with a strong epoxy or hideglue. Make sure to clamp it after you ad the glue, but not too tightly or else you will drive all the glue our of the splice. Steaming a splice will make it tight as can be even if you messed up your cut.


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## Strider

Quietly watching this topic with great interest


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## brianpoundingnails

I built some 14" prods for my homebuilt crossbow by laminating green oak and cypress with layers of heavy fiberglass cloth and epoxy resin. Much more than 50# pull.(you need a goats leg prod to Male chicken it) I'm pretty sure I could have used cardboard instead of wood and got 50# pull. What I saying is you can probably use any kind of hard-soft wood combination. I don't know a thing about traditional bow building(hide glue, horn backing, fletching and such) so I used modern materials for effect. Carbon fiber cloth is even available in different grades. The important thing is to experiment. There was nobody to show the first bow hunters.


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