# ruining turnings



## Karda (Dec 4, 2019)

when does a turner stop ruining things almost every bowl i turn i ruin in the tenon removal stage, when I do one right The finish sucks. The out side isn't bad the no matter what I do the interior bottom is smeary. i even tried squirting the inside of the bowl with shellac while the lathe is moving, kinda messy but it helps. So few turn out realy nice I some times wonder why I bother. Just rantin thanks for listening

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## Tony (Dec 4, 2019)

We all do it my man. All I can say is keep going and trying, you'll get it down.


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## Karda (Dec 4, 2019)

I am relay debating that


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## Tony (Dec 4, 2019)

Is there a turning club near you? Maybe you could join and get some help and other opinions.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Karda (Dec 4, 2019)

I belong to a turning club but its not near me. The is all the help i need but I can't get to it because I can't drive


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## Tony (Dec 4, 2019)

Post some of your turnings, tell us about them....species, what you did, etc. Maybe some people are here can help.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## David Hill (Dec 4, 2019)

I’m watching the thread too.
More info on the wood, tools, pics??

Reactions: Agree 2


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## jasonb (Dec 4, 2019)

Agree with the above posts. We're here for you. Would be helpful to see a couple pictures when you get ready to remove the tenon.


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## TimR (Dec 4, 2019)

Yea, probably something we can help with descriptions of each issue and pics. Have you looked at any bowl turning vids by guys like Mike Mahoney, Stuart Batty, Jimmy Clewes, to name a few? These guys do a great job of describing techniques and tips.
The other key thing is knowing how to sharpen and shape your gouges for the job.

After rereading your comments, can you describe how you remove your tenons?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ripjack13 (Dec 4, 2019)

I ruin stuff all. The. Time.
Just gotta keep going. Slow down.
As for the finish, that's tough. Mine all suck. Except for ca on a pen. But even that gives me trouble. For bowls I'll use a spray can clear. I gotta find one that works for me though. With brush on poly I always have runs and stuff stuck to it. So I end up sanding it off and redoing a few times. I need to make a spray box or something.
And another problem I have with my bowl/larger turning finishes, is whatever I use, I have to use it outside, or the wife starts meowing that its smelly and gives her a headache.
Whe parting it off the lathe, I'll turn it down to about an inch looking dowel size. Then turn the rpm to the lowest setting, and then reach around the lathe with my left arm, lean onto the lathe, hold on the bowl with my hand, to steady it, and part it off a little at a time, till it can wobble, then turn the lathe off. And twist it off manually. Then just sand the little nub. I don't have a steady rest to hold my stuff, so I do what I have to with what I have....

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## Karda (Dec 4, 2019)

thanks I'll take pic of the next one i do. I have watched a lot of videos, but they are done by experts and they don't make mistakes. so i watch the videos but can't do it the way they do it because I 'm not an expert yet. Als o when i try to do it the way the expert teaches what I think is the right way isn't. alot is lost between the videos and my work piece


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## Karl_TN (Dec 4, 2019)

Mike, 

What are you using to turn off the tenon? My favorite way is using cole jaws. Just keep a tale keep the tailstock engaged as long as possible.

As far as finishing goes, I've had good luck using Mark Sillay's CA method. Best place to get the odor free PARFIX 3408 CA Glue is calling or emailing Mark.

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## William Tanner (Dec 4, 2019)

For me it would have been a significant struggle to try to learn on my own, even with videos. Been lucky to have the resources of a vibrant turning club, which include several well known artists. Fellow club members Jerry and Jerry have taught me so much. The club owns six lathes and after the holidays will have open turning Saturdays where a member can get help with a problem or take a class. Also had the benefit of demos and hands on classes with some of the greats. Getting several four hour one on one sessions with a competent turner works wonders. Sounds like that might be difficult for you at this time. But... you have a great resource right here with so many nice people willing to help. Wish you well. Keep trucking and enjoy your successes.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## trc65 (Dec 4, 2019)

Mike, a suggestion with regard to finishing. Simplify things and go with a basic, but very functional finish. 

Probably the easiest finish is a simple oil finish. Walnut oil, wiped on the lathe and use a little friction to warm the surface and help it penetrate. If you wanted to, you could rub a little beeswax on it as well and buff with a clean rag while spinning.

This will provide a very functional ( and IMO) beautiful finish that is easily refreshed as/when needed.

I think that sometimes it is easy to get caught up in the marketing hype that surrounds the dozens of different finishes that all purport to be the easiest and prettiest. 

Many times simpler is better.

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## Karda (Dec 4, 2019)

i try to keep it simple, wipe on shellac and OB shine juice. For some reason I can get a good finish on the out side but the inside bottom is smeary. i squirt the shellac on the moving bowl then let the lathe run for a few minutes, that work well providing I remember to cover the bed. I have pictures of my next bowl

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## Karda (Dec 5, 2019)

here are the picture of my next bowl its dry red maple live edge with the tenon inside the foot, the foot has to go. By the time I true it there will be nothing left and that will also make it easier to clean the bottom. one problem i have in removing the tenon is the gouge vibrates on the tool rest, alot

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## TXMoon (Dec 5, 2019)

Karda said:


> here are the picture of my next bowl its dry red maple live edge with the tenon inside the foot, the foot has to go. By the time I true it there will be nothing left and that will also make it easier to clean the bottom. one problem i have in removing the tenon is the gouge vibrates on the tool rest, alot


A couple of things. That is a beautiful bowl. I love the shape and the foot. Why does the tenon have to go if it's hidden by the foot? I have some bowls with really crappy, unfinished mortise that I just left. I could go back and sand, and finish them but since the bowls are not for sale, I don't mind the unfinished bottoms. 

I get the same issues as you do. I change tools often if one doesn't work (I am sure meaning I am not using it right). I end up turning the outside with gouges, and the inside with carbide scrapers. Use what works. Then I used the "sand, sand, sand, hit it again with a scraper, sand, sand, sanding sealer, go sit down and drink some water and relax, come back, scrape, sand, (repeat all of that if needed) then finish" method. And that usually works. And some go into the burn box.

My big thing is for me to relax, and slow down. I think I get caught up in how long a bowl turning video is vs how long it actually takes them. There is some great turners here willing to help any issue. I have learned a lot from these members and am always learning new things. 

Finally, follow the advice here. When you hit an issue, send pictures, and describe what, and how your doing what ever is causing the issues. We're here to help!

Reactions: Agree 2


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## TXMoon (Dec 5, 2019)

Karda said:


> i try to keep it simple, wipe on shellac and OB shine juice. For some reason I can get a good finish on the out side but the inside bottom is smeary. i squirt the shellac on the moving bowl then let the lathe run for a few minutes, that work well providing I remember to cover the bed. I have pictures of my next bowl



I don't know for sure but I would say if you are using OB then don't use shellac. I stopped using straight shellac since I have discovered OB and get good results. And sometimes I'll just use Walnut Oil. Remember, the bottom of the bowl that is closest to the axis of the lathe is turning at a lot slower relative rpm (well, it's the same RPM but spinning slower if that makes sense) than the rim. So when using a friction polish on the bottom you may need to speed up the lathe to get a good friction finish.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Karl_TN (Dec 5, 2019)

Mike, 

Natural edge bowls aren't the easiest woodturnings to make or finish so you need to give yourself more credit here because it looks like you're off to a great start. Just a little more work on the finish and this bowl would make someone a nice Christmas present. 

My Cole Jaws suggestion wouldn't work for your Natural Edge Bowls. Many turners use a vacuum chuck system for holding NE Bowls, but those can be expensive for many turners. It might help if you could explain how the bowl is being held when you're reverse turning to get the tenon removed. 

If your gouge is bouncing too much then try using/borrowing a freshly sharpened 'negative rake scraper' right before you start sanding. Also, don't forget one of your best finishing tools is a 80 to 120 grit gouge (i.e. sandpaper) on a drill mandrel or inertial chuck to smooth everything out.

-Karl

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## trc65 (Dec 5, 2019)

On a different forum, there was a recent discussion about tools bouncing and rough uneven cuts. It was pointed out the the natural reaction to that situation is to apply a death grip to the tool and push harder into the wood. That is exactly the wrong thing to do.

If you push harder into the wood with the tool, it will continue to follow the uneveness of the surface and you will never get it smooth. What you need to do is use a non bevel riding cut that is only removing the high spots on the area you are working. Take very thin cuts until the high spot are gone. A shear cut with a gouge, or a scraper works well for this. 

The discussion of this problem was kind of an epiphany for me and really helped the surface quality and cut down on the need for course sanding.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thank You! 1 | Great Post 1


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## TXMoon (Dec 5, 2019)

trc65 said:


> On a different forum, there was a recent discussion about tools bouncing and rough uneven cuts. It was pointed out the the natural reaction to that situation is to apply a death grip to the tool and push harder into the wood. That is exactly the wrong thing to do.
> 
> If you push harder into the wood with the tool, it will continue to follow the uneveness of the surface and you will never get it smooth. What you need to do is use a non bevel riding cut that is only removing the high spots on the area you are working. Take very thin cuts until the high spot are gone. A shear cut with a gouge, or a scraper works well for this.
> 
> The discussion of this problem was kind of an epiphany for me and really helped the surface quality and cut down on the need for course sanding.


Wow! Thank you! I am not sure what a "non-bevel riding cut" is but I'll look into it. I have the same issue and it's a pain. I don't think I push too hard but I'll keep that in mind. Again, thank you.


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## TXMoon (Dec 5, 2019)

Karl_TN said:


> ...Cole Jaws suggestion wouldn't work for your Natural Edge Bowls. Many turners use a vacuum chuck system for holding NE Bowls, but those can be expensive for many turners...l


I agree with Karl. For a natural edge bowl you'll need some kind of jam chuck, I use an old mouse pad over my Nova chuck as a jam chuck until I find, or make something better. But I can also make a plug for the Tail Stock Steady made by our own @Nubsnstubs , you can see my post about that in this forum. It's cheaper than a vacuum chuck and helps me turn off tenons. 

Kevin

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## trc65 (Dec 5, 2019)

Robo Hippy has a video on shear scraping, and in it he equates uneven areas on a bowl to speed bumps in a parking lot. The angle that you hit a speed bump determines how rough your car bounces. The same thing with a cutting tool.

Although he is primarily talking about finish cuts, the principles he shows equate for all turning cuts.
Just search for "Robo Hippy Shear Scraping Video"

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## Gdurfey (Dec 5, 2019)

wanted to add to what Tim is saying. The inside of my bowls have gotten better over time. I had the "speed bumps" and have now come to understand a bit better of how they are happening. Over time and with suggestions/pointers, I have changed my approach of my gouges on the inside, etc. I have also been using a carbide "scraper" but it does the same. There have been times when I just can't seem to get the right angle/bevel/etc to get the right cut. I adjust my rest, grab my scraper, help myself out a little; and then depending on how close to finishing I can either continue that direction or go back to my other tools and keep working the shape. Again, a couple of years of practice (I don't turn a lot, so I am not talking a 100 bowls are anything) but I am seeing a big difference.

I also understand better, like Karl, of your tenon issue. Yep, love edge, uneven shaped rim, you have to come with an alternative to chuck it. I do encourage you to figure out what is going to work for you because when that friend turns it over to look for your signature/initials you want the bottom to be pretty as well.

Again, maybe a power sander on the bottom, those 80/120 grit tools can make a real difference and are totally acceptable to use!!! 

Keep turning buddy.....lastly, wow, that is a pretty piece. I think someone mentioned it; on the inside, toward the center, the bowl just isn't spinning as fast (not technically correct statement, but i hope you know what I mean); maybe more speed as you go inward to get equivalent pressure.

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## Karda (Dec 5, 2019)

Karda said:


> i try to keep it simple, wipe on shellac and OB shine juice. For some reason I can get a good finish on the out side but the inside bottom is smeary. i squirt the shellac on the moving bowl then let the lathe run for a few minutes, that work well providing I remember to cover the bed. I have pictures of my next bowl



Thanks for your suggestions, I have some questions and thoughts. I didn't know you could use shine juice on bare wood i thought it was a top finish. I never used walnut oil because my experience with oil is it shine beautifully but dulls quickly. one of my tenon problems is when I have removed it and the bottom is clean there is a raised area where the tenon was. No amount of sraping can reduce it, Than makes sanding harder. About the tool vibration, I use these same techniques when taking of a tenon of a still green piece and no or little vibration, it appears to be a issue with dried wood. I am fussy about thew bottom because i would like to sell them if I can. Not as a business just to get something for the material.

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## TXMoon (Dec 5, 2019)

Karda said:


> Thanks for your suggestions, I have some questions and thoughts. I didn't know you could use shine juice on bare wood i thought it was a top finish. I never used walnut oil because my experience with oil is it shine beautifully but dulls quickly.


Yes, I found that too, once oil drys and soaks in it does soften. It's not a shiny finish, but I think it glows. It's just a softer finish. I would also call OB a top finish but I don't use anything under it. Well I can't say that either. I may use a finishing paste, or oil, then top with OB. But it's not necessary. And with all my bowls I sand until smooth, 400 - 600 grit. With a good blast of compressed air, and a wipe with DNA in between each grit. Then at 600 I'll use a sanding sealer (50/50 DNA/Mylands SS) then Ack's Sanding paste, and then finish with either oil, or OB's. I haven't used bee's wax but I will one of these days. 

I have only been turning for 6 months and this is what I have found works. There is a lot of trial and error and learning from forum members. I look forward to seeing more of your work in the Completed Projects forum. 

K

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## Karda (Dec 5, 2019)

My typical finish is sand to 320-400 grit then use a sanding paste, I make it with mineral oil, beeswax and diatomaseous earth. gives a real fine finish, then shellac and then more sanding paste or shine juice. I did a bowl bottom outside and wiped the shellac on with pressure, no streaks maybe thats my answer


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## Karda (Dec 5, 2019)

ok i started the bowl, I tryed to turn off the foot and this is what I got. When i move toward the outside of the bottom where I try to blend the bottom with the side the gouge of scraper starts gouging. Pictured is where I managed to get the digs out. What do i do here, 40 grit sandpaper. Will this bowl ever amount to anything


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## DKMD (Dec 5, 2019)

You might look into negative rake scrapers or sheer scraping as mentioned above. Both work well for blending curves.

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## Karda (Dec 5, 2019)

ok


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## ripjack13 (Dec 5, 2019)

Karda said:


> ok i started the bowl, I tryed to turn off the foot and this is what I got. When i move toward the outside of the bottom where I try to blend the bottom with the side the gouge of scraper starts gouging. Pictured is where I managed to get the digs out. What do i do here, 40 grit sandpaper. Will this bowl ever amount to anything
> 
> View attachment 174895



Do you have a right angle drill and a sanding disc? That may work for that. It looks as though the bowl warped a lil, (or could be off centered) so thats why you're digging in on one side but not the other. While it's running on the lathe, sand it down through the grits.

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## TimR (Dec 5, 2019)

Can you take a still shot approximating your gouge to the area that dig in? Also a good shot of tip of your gouge to see the grind profile.


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## Nubsnstubs (Dec 6, 2019)

Karda said:


> ok i started the bowl, I tryed to turn off the foot and this is what I got. When i move toward the outside of the bottom where I try to blend the bottom with the side the gouge of scraper starts gouging. Pictured is where I managed to get the digs out. What do i do here, 40 grit sandpaper. Will this bowl ever amount to anything
> 
> View attachment 174895


Mike, I believe you said the bowl was green when you started it. If so, it is doing exactly what a green bowl does when drying. It's warped along the grain. It looks to me that you had the piece finished, then tried to make the foot. 
When you do another, on the re-turn, completely finish the outside of it, including the foot, leaving only the tenon to be removed after you complete the inside.
When you complete the inside, make a plug to fit the inside contour. for this type of large plug, I use MDF stacked and glued to about 4-5" thick. I then band saw cut to fit about the same size as the OD. Since you don't have a Chuck Plate, you will need to glue or screw a block on to make a tenon. 
When the tenon is made, round the plug to fit all the way until it hits bottom. The contour of the plug should be the same size as the inside of the bowl. To find out how you are doing while shaping the plug, take your form and put it over the plug. Push in with a fair amount of pressure and twist it some until you think it might squeak. Pull the piece away, and look for shiny spots on the OD of the plug. Turn them out. Rub the bowl again on the plug. Turn out shiny spots until it fit like an OJ glove. 
When the plug is fitted, bring up the tail stock to the dimple, and start removing the tenon starting on the bottom of the foot only working towards the center. *If you have already sanded and finished the bowl, stay away from the OD of the foot area no matter how warped it is.* Keep removing the tenon until it's about 3/8'' diameter. If you are uncomfy with it that small, make it larger. 
Another alternative to using MDF is if you have more wood lying around waiting to be made into something, make a plug from a piece that I call a Future Turning. Put a tenon on it, and shape it the same way described above. After you have your bowl turned to the nub, you will have a start on the piece you used as a plug. 
Turn it into something. ................ Jerry (in Tucson)


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## Karl_TN (Dec 6, 2019)

Nubsnstubs said:


> ...
> When you complete the inside, make a plug to fit the inside contour. for this type of large plug, I use MDF stacked and glued to about 4-5" thick. I then band saw cut to fit about the same size as the OD. Since you don't have a Chuck Plate, you will need to glue or screw a block on to make a tenon.
> When the tenon is made, round the plug to fit all the way until it hits bottom. The contour of the plug should be the same size as the inside of the bowl. To find out how you are doing while shaping the plug, take your form and put it over the plug. Push in with a fair amount of pressure and twist it some until you think it might squeak. Pull the piece away, and look for shiny spots on the OD of the plug. Turn them out. Rub the bowl again on the plug. Turn out shiny spots until it fit like an OJ glove....



Jerry, You're spot on about completely finishing the outside first, but it sounds like a a lot of work to make a tightly fitting plug. Like Kevin, I either use a blue paper towel or a thin interface pad (i.e. used foam backed sanding pad ) over my my chuck jaws for the few NE Bowls that I've turned. Guess I'm just too lazy to go through all the plug work.

-Karl


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## Karda (Dec 6, 2019)

that bowl was completely finished out of the packing, I had no intention of touching the outside until I took the foot of and screwed it up blending it into the side. I teased the rest off with a neg rake scraper and finished with sand paper, its not to bad. My next concern is what is going to happen when I try to turn out the inside. It will never be round and part of the end will not be cut at all. here is a pic of the finished outside and a pic of the inside as it is now before turning

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## Karda (Dec 7, 2019)

ok I got the bowl done, the foot had to go because it was warped and it was to small to true. the bottom didn't turn out well, my cone center went through the tenon int the bottom but not through bottom. I turned out nice and my wife likes it.

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## jasonb (Dec 7, 2019)

Nicely done!


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## Karda (Dec 7, 2019)

thanks


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## trc65 (Dec 7, 2019)

Well done, an excellent save and a great looking bowl!

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## Nubsnstubs (Dec 8, 2019)

Mike, you did a good job. I would like to know if the bark is all the same width along the top. It looks like it might be, but at approximately at the 5 o'clock position in the last photo, there looks to be a bulge along the bark. It looks thinner at 7 and 12 o'clock also, but that's probably because of the curvature of the log you started with. Still, a nice job well done............ Jerry (in Tucson)


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## Karda (Dec 8, 2019)

you are right Jerry the bark isn't even,


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## Karda (Dec 8, 2019)

I oopsed, the above finished bowl is not the one this thread is concerning. Wrong pictures. What can I say besides not enough coffee. Here are the right ones. I had a lot of trouble with the sides on this one. I was having a hard time turning the side to make them thinner, finly got it done but the scraper kept catching. i had to leave the ridges in and sanded them out with 40 grit. All in all it looks good but I have to strip it and resand. I missed a patch of scratches on the side.

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## TXMoon (Dec 9, 2019)

That turned out great! Beautiful bowl.

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## Karda (Dec 9, 2019)

i still resanded it, look at the inside from the center out. Those rings are not growth ring they are in the finish


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## Karda (Dec 9, 2019)

well i resanded and it did turn out better, until tenon removal time. How do i fix this


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## Mike Mills (Dec 9, 2019)

Just saw it off then sand away. 80 grit should knock it down real quick, than < a minute with the other grits.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Karda (Dec 9, 2019)

ok but there is still a deep spot where the point of the center dug in. Its about 6 oclock up about one quarter


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