# Best way to cut miters for boxes



## DLJeffs (Sep 30, 2020)

I've tried to search for previous threads about the most accurate way to make miter cuts for boxes. But didn't find any so I probably wasn't doing something right. I'm sure this topic has been discussed before. I'm interested in finding out how you box makers cut 45 degree miters for box sides? A buddy has a jig he built that he swears is the best way to cut box sides on his table saw without tilting the blade. Much more accurate than using a chop / miter saw. I've seen some YouTube "how to's" for building a sled type jig for cutting 45 degree miters, but it only works for small dimension, not for cross cutting box sides for example. If someone knows this was talked about before and can post a link to the thread, that'd be great. Otherwise, I'm all ears, looking to be educated about making boxes with 45 degree miter corners and splines. Thanks
Doug

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## Mike1950 (Oct 1, 2020)

My coved boxes use 3/4-7/8 wood in a 8 x12 box. even well jointed and planed wood is not perfect. with no set size I used a crude but effective cut miters on both ends on chop saw-then cut sides- test and shim on chop saw to fit. quite crude but very effective. getting small thick boards to match perfectly any other way was an effort in frustration for me

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## Ray D (Oct 1, 2020)

I use a dedicated sled for all my boxes. Nothing fancy but it works fine.

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## Nature Man (Oct 1, 2020)

Ray D said:


> I use a dedicated sled for all my boxes. Nothing fancy but it works fine.View attachment 194185


Would you please show a picture of your jig. Boxes are drop dead gorgeous. Chuck

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## DLJeffs (Oct 1, 2020)

Yes, exactly what Chuck said, please. A jig of some kind is what I'm thinking. Beautiful boxes Mike and Ray. 

Mike - if I understand you correctly, you cut miters on both ends of the sides of your boxes. Then do a test fit and figure out where you need to make adjustments, if any. Then you put shims in your chop saw (still set at 45 degree stop) to make those tiny adjustments? Shims are what, pieces of cardboard or something? I assume the adjustments are tiny fractions. If that's an accurate description, are you tilting your chop saw to 45 degrees from vertical, or are you placing the box sides vertically against the fence and simply rotating the chop saw to the 45 degree stop? I suppose a second question is are you using a fine tooth blade to limit chipping?

I'm hoping I can just make one that's square.

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## Ray D (Oct 1, 2020)

Nature Man said:


> Would you please show a picture of your jig. Boxes are drop dead gorgeous. Chuck


I can get a picture when I get home but it’s nothing more then a table saw sled made just for 45’s. I got tired of messing up my every day sled so I made one just for boxes. I tilt the blade to 45 and set up my stops.

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## barry richardson (Oct 1, 2020)

I agree with Ray, I use a sled on the table saw. After 15 years of production box making, i.e. flag and shadow boxes, and various other things, I have settled on the sled as the best solution. Build it square, mill the boards square, and you will have perfect corners. A miter saw works OK, but even with the best ones, the blades deflects ever so slightly. Use a stop block on the sled, or the table saw fence, to repeat exact lengths. The only downside is that it is bulky to store...
here is mine, nothing fancy, the slot is getting a little wide since I use it to cut 22.5 degree cuts too, which I require for some of my boxes.... I laid some thin paneling down for a zero clearance area, still works great...

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## Ray D (Oct 1, 2020)

Mine looks just like the one Barry showed.

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## DLJeffs (Oct 1, 2020)

Thanks Barry and Ray. That's really helpful. Have you found a max blade extension on your table saw - the point at which the blade starts to deflect too much to be accurate? I have a pretty cheap old Delta table saw and I'm not sure how accurate my 45 tilt is. I suspect I can fiddle with it and make trial cuts until I get it pretty accurate each time I need to make some 45's. I don't do production type numbers, nearly every thing I make is one off but I don't mind having to do some trial and error as long as I can get a decent final product. And once I lock the blade in it usually stays put. In fact, the scale on my fence is useless so I always measure both front edge and trail edge of the blade-to-fence to make sure it's the same. It's slow but it works if I take my time. So I think I can use a 45 degree to get the blade set.

Oh, here's another question: to test it, do you make two 45 cuts and then put them together and check it against a 90degree angle? Trying to verify a true 45 on a 1/4 inch thin board might be tough.

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## barry richardson (Oct 1, 2020)

I adjusted my 45 degree stop as you described above. Use a scrap piece 3/4" or so to do it. As long as your blade is sharp, it should not deflect on a table saw no matter how high you raise it. If you don't trust your TS settings, I recommend one of these;

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## DLJeffs (Oct 1, 2020)

Perfect! Thanks Barry. Looks like another Christmas list item for me.

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## DLJeffs (Oct 3, 2020)

Hey Barry or Ray, @barry richardson ; @Ray D
Looking at the photo of Barry's sled, do you cut boards on both sides of the blade? Or just on one side and if so, which side? I'm just wondering if you always cut on the right side (for example) if there's any advantage to offsetting the sled to that side so I have longer support.


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## Mike1950 (Oct 3, 2020)

DLJeffs said:


> Yes, exactly what Chuck said, please. A jig of some kind is what I'm thinking. Beautiful boxes Mike and Ray.
> 
> Mike - if I understand you correctly, you cut miters on both ends of the sides of your boxes. Then do a test fit and figure out where you need to make adjustments, if any. Then you put shims in your chop saw (still set at 45 degree stop) to make those tiny adjustments? Shims are what, pieces of cardboard or something? I assume the adjustments are tiny fractions. If that's an accurate description, are you tilting your chop saw to 45 degrees from vertical, or are you placing the box sides vertically against the fence and simply rotating the chop saw to the 45 degree stop? I suppose a second question is are you using a fine tooth blade to limit chipping?
> 
> I'm hoping I can just make one that's square.


I use veneer pieces and tape. Vertical. My box sides are 4-5" tall. Depends on figure. Fine tooth. I have used TS. Just does not work for me. I have a couple box build threads in classroom. They are old so you probably have to go back. "Build da box" if my memory serves me..

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## Ray D (Oct 3, 2020)

Hello @DLJeffs . Mine is offset as I do all my cutting on the left side. Here is mine.

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## Ray D (Oct 3, 2020)

I forgot to mention that I use a 60 tooth thin kerf blade. As long as it’s sharp it makes a very fine cut with almost no tear out. Check that....I went out in the shop and i believe it’s actually a Freud 80 tooth blade.


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## Ray D (Oct 3, 2020)

Definitely check out the box build that @Mike1950 did. Great information.

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## DLJeffs (Oct 3, 2020)

Thanks for that quick reply Ray and for pointing me at the classroom. Forgot to look in there. What you said about which side you cut on etc makes sense to me. I started cutting parts for a sled today so when I attach the runners and the fence, that's what I'll do. I currently have a Diablo 60 tooth combo blade so maybe I'll go check out the fine tooth, thin kerf too.

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## DLJeffs (Oct 19, 2020)

Ray D said:


> Definitely check out the box build that @Mike1950 did. Great information.



Ray, Mike, Barry and others,
A couple additional questions for you:

1). I assume you finish or nearly finish your boxes before assembly (at least the interiors would be easier if finished before making it into a box). Ray's in particular with the lid attached as part of the assembly. So are you completely finishing (e.g. final coat of finish, etc) or just getting it ready for the final coat and then assembling the box?

2). What glue are you using for your box miters and splines? I ask because if you're finishing the inside, I assume you have to be very careful not to get squeeze out onto your finished box, right? So does super glue work better for that? And if so, what viscosity works best - thin, medium or gel?

3). When using a "panel" type lid, (e.g a thin walnut inside a frame) are you gluing the panel in? Or just gluing the frame miters?

4). This one is for Ray in particular - I like the little handle design you use. Do you simply glue that to the lid or are you inserting small dowels or something to strengthen that attachment?

@Ray D @Mike1950 @barry richardson


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## Ray D (Oct 19, 2020)

A lot of good questions.
I definitely finish the interior frame my boxes before I glue them up....at least one coat anyway. 

I use Titebond II and clean up with a damp cloth.

My “handle” is attached to the box lid using a loose tenon. Long grain to long grain should bond without the need of a tenon but because that area is going to possibly see some abuse I always use a loose tenon. Hope this helps


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## Ray D (Oct 19, 2020)

Forgot about the third question. On my boxes with a panel glue up I never glue the panel in the frame. I like a snug fit bit it still has room to move. The bottom panel is also free to move.


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## barry richardson (Oct 19, 2020)

I usually don't finish the inside first, but its a good idea. I usually wait about a half hour after the assembly, when the squeeze-out glue is kinda rubbery, then shave it off with a chisel. I use yellow wood glue, the brand is not important IMO. It's better not to glue panels, so they can move with humidity...

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## DLJeffs (Oct 19, 2020)

Thanks so much for the quick replies and advice @Ray D and @barry richardson . Everything you said makes perfect sense to me. There's no doubt in my mind you're helping me avoid wasting precious wood, time and probably body parts. My retired cabinet maker-neighbor stopped by while I was working and he said the same thing about glue. He said if I apply any finish to the inside before glue up the glue will come off easily provided I get to it before it dries hard. I started my boxes today, using those gorgeous spalted walnut thins and curly maple boards (from @rob3232 and @FranklinWorkshops . I used my miter sled to made the lid today. Worked great, nice tight miters and it's square too. The lid is 6"X9" and the box sides will be 4" deep so the inside dimension will be around 3 1/2". Cut the boards for the sides and cut the dados for the bottom into them. Tomorrow I'll do some sanding and hopefully glue up the lid. Then the critical part - using my other sled to cut the miters for the box sides. Stay tuned. And thanks again!









A little burning on the maple I'll have to sand out. It's a brand new blade and I don't think I could have cut any faster. Guess that's just a characteristic of the hard maple.

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## Ray D (Oct 19, 2020)

Looking good @DLJeffs. That’s some beautiful walnut. Are you going to spline the corners?


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## DLJeffs (Oct 19, 2020)

Yessir, that's the plan. I have some ink black ebony scrap left over from reel seats that I hope to make splines for both the lid and box sides from. Primarily copying your design (do I need to pay royalty fees?). Might try a little different "handle" design tho.


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## Ray D (Oct 19, 2020)

DLJeffs said:


> Yessir, that's the plan. I have some ink black ebony scrap I hope to make splines for both the lid and box sides from. Primarily copying your design (do I need to pay royalty fees?). Might try a little different "handle" design tho.


looking forward to seeing the final box. No royalty fee...lol. Im pretty sure I copied the design off the web.


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## Mike1950 (Oct 19, 2020)

DLJeffs said:


> Ray, Mike, Barry and others,
> A couple additional questions for you:
> 
> 1). I assume you finish or nearly finish your boxes before assembly (at least the interiors would be easier if finished before making it into a box). Ray's in particular with the lid attached as part of the assembly. So are you completely finishing (e.g. final coat of finish, etc) or just getting it ready for the final coat and then assembling the box?
> ...


I sand in side of box but no finish. sharp chisel removes excess glue when half dry.
2 titebond 2 or 3- but glue is not as important as tight joint. 
3 most of coved boxes use a bridal joint frame and inset that floats in a 1/16" groove.

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## DLJeffs (Oct 19, 2020)

Thanks Mike. I'm not ready to try your coved boxes yet. And I'll have to Google "bridal joint frame and inset".

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## T. Ben (Oct 20, 2020)

That lid is looking goooooood!!

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## DLJeffs (Oct 20, 2020)

Thanks Troy. FYI: I am in a holding pattern on those agate table lamps. I need to get the lamp parts before I cut any more wood. But I have those on order and will get back to it as soon as I can.

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## DLJeffs (Oct 20, 2020)

So far so good. Base cut out and dry fit using my sled. Only had one joint that needed the tiniest of tweaking. The bottom fit nicely too. Clouded up and looks like rain so had to put stuff away. Next up sanding and making the handle, cutting the slot in the box side where the handle fits, and figuring out where the pins will go. Everything just dry fit in the pics.

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## Ray D (Oct 20, 2020)

Looking good

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## Mike1950 (Oct 22, 2020)

DLJeffs said:


> Thanks Mike. I'm not ready to try your coved boxes yet. And I'll have to Google "bridal joint frame and inset".


It is all in class room. Box looks very nice.


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## DLJeffs (Oct 22, 2020)

Mike1950 said:


> It is all in class room. Box looks very nice.



I saw that. Your boxes are gorgeous. I just not sure I'm ready to tackle that angled saw blade technique. I'm still learning to cut square 45 degree miters! 

I did lots of sanding the last couple days. Got my agate lamp boxes sanded and got this box sanded. Applied the first coat of General Finish clear satin. I am waiting for the lamp components to arrive before I cut anymore wood or drill holes for those lamps. So I'll probably work in figuring out where the hinge pins go and drill those holes. Then sand and apply a second coat to the box interior. And sand and keep finishing the box lid and exterior. Then I'll be ready to glue the lid and then the box body itself. I'll post pics as I go.

Oh, I meant to say...the curl on those maple thins reappeared once I put the first coat of finish on. I think it'll only get better from here on out. They look really nice. My mahogany is not all uniform color but that's the way it goes.

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## Mike1950 (Oct 22, 2020)

DLJeffs said:


> I saw that. Your boxes are gorgeous. I just not sure I'm ready to tackle that angled saw blade technique. I'm still learning to cut square 45 degree miters!
> 
> I did lots of sanding the last couple days. Got my agate lamp boxes sanded and got this box sanded. Applied the first coat of General Finish clear satin. I am waiting for the lamp components to arrive before I cut anymore wood or drill holes for those lamps. So I'll probably work in figuring out where the hinge pins go and drill those holes. Then sand and apply a second coat to the box interior. And sand and keep finishing the box lid and exterior. Then I'll be ready to glue the lid and then the box body itself. I'll post pics as I go.
> 
> Oh, I meant to say...the curl on those maple thins reappeared once I put the first coat of finish on. I think it'll only get better from here on out. They look really nice. My mahogany is not all uniform color but that's the way it goes.


Cove is easier to do than getting those miters right. Boxes look fabulous.


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## DLJeffs (Oct 25, 2020)

Mostly I've been busy with boring sanding and finishing stuff. But today I played around with an idea I have for the little handle detail. I was worried about how well this ebony would adhere to the maple. So I decided to drill and install a 1/8" dowel / peg to reinforce the joint. I also decided to put my new trim router to use and routed a very thin inset for the handle. Finally I took creative liberty with Ray's design and rounded my handle and put a little curved underlip on it. Here's a couple photos to better illustrate what I'm describing. Thanks to Ray for some extra advice and guidance. Once I have the lid insert all finished i'll glue up the lid.

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## Ray D (Oct 25, 2020)

That’s going to look nice. My wife loves ebony lumber so I try to use it somewhere on each box I make her.


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## DLJeffs (Oct 26, 2020)

I glued up the lid this morning and started thinking about the spline cuts. Here's a saw blade 101 question: does it matter the type of blade to use for the spline kerfs? I have several combo blades, 60 teeth and one 80 teeth. I also have a 200 tooth plywood blade. Looking down the blades on edge, I can see the 'V' shape left by the teeth, except for the plywood blade. One blade seems to have a less pronounced 'V' shape. Do I need to buy a new blade that doesn't leave that 'V' shape or will it disappear when I glue in the splines?

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## Mike1950 (Oct 26, 2020)

V will show. I use one of my dado blades. They are a stacking set. Square teeth

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## DLJeffs (Oct 26, 2020)

Thanks Mike. Do you get any tear out using the dado blade? I do have nice Freud dado set my kids bought me a couple years ago. It has a 1/8" wide blade for each outer blade and those 4 bladed stacking blades to get the desired width. I assume you're using one of the 1/8" wide blades.


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## Mike1950 (Oct 26, 2020)

I use 1/8. My jig has backer board with deters tearout


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## DLJeffs (Nov 2, 2020)

Finished my lid, except for drilling the holes for the pins and gluing on the little handle thing. Not 100% happy with it. For some reason I didn't get my spline kerfs exactly centered. I made a jig but with the thin lid, I had to make a spacer to get the lid where the saw blade cut through the jig. I suspect I didn't get that spacer exactly right. But if you don't tell anyone, I won't. Splines are black ebony left from reel seat blanks.

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## Ray D (Nov 2, 2020)

Looks great. I’m sure it goes without saying but cut some scrap and take your time setting up your drill press for the pin holes. A cheap digital caliper is very helpful. 
Beautiful piece of lumber on that top.


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## DLJeffs (Nov 4, 2020)

Did all the final fit up today, put a 1/4" round on the back of the lid so it opens smooth, final touch up sanding to equal up all the reveals, etc,. had to tickle one miter a little, cut the notch for the handle, and the final dry fit looks good. I used my strap clamp on the base for my second lamp so I won't be able to glue it until tomorrow. Then I'll cut the splines and do the final sanding / finishing. Of course once this one's done I need to make another one for my daughter (or wife, which ever one chooses the first one). I made one little change to Ray's design - I put a tiny nylon washer on the pin to help ensure the lid doesn't wander to one side or the other.

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## Ray D (Nov 4, 2020)

That’s going to be a really nice box. Can’t wait to see it complete with a finish on it... that lid is going to be spectacular. 
Ray

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## Wildthings (Nov 4, 2020)

DLJeffs said:


> I put a tiny nylon washer on the pin to help ensure the lid doesn't wander to one side or the other.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that pin spring loaded?


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## DLJeffs (Nov 5, 2020)

Wildthings said:


> Is that pin spring loaded?


Mornin' Barry.
No, the pin is just a piece of 1/8" brass rod, about 3/4" long. I'm using the method Ray told me about. Once your lid is more or less finished (dimensionally anyway), you drill a hole in the frame of your lid, centered in your lid, one each side. Then you figure out where the matching hole needs to go in each side of the box itself. I had a section of the "frame" I used for my lid, found the center (both top/bottom and from one end) and drilled a 1/8" diameter hole. I used that as a drill guide by clamping it to my lid (which centered the hole) and drilled it to depth. Then I could use the same drill guide on the box sides by aligning it with the top edge (which gets the hole to the right spot vertically). I started with the end of the guide right at the inside miter of the box sides, then I pulled it away from the miter edge a distance equal to the rest of the spacing between the lid and the box. This is important otherwise your lid will sit closer or farther from the back or front of your box. Once you have the drill guide in place I drilled a 1/8" hole in each side of the box. When I put the box together I'll slide the pins in as I raise each side of the box. Once it's glued, the lid and pins are fixed in place. That's why Ray recommends finishing the inside of the box and the lid before gluing it all up.

I thought about the spring loaded type of pins and a slightly different design in which you drill a hole that is the total length of your pin. You also drill a tiny hole perpendicular at about the halfway point. To assemble the lid, you slip it into place, then use a knife edge to wiggle the pin across the opening and into the box side. Once you have the pin at the appropriate depth, you insert a tiny wood dowel into the perpendicular hole to prevent the pin from sliding back. Both seemed like more trouble to me so I went with the simple design.

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## Ray D (Nov 5, 2020)

I’ve made quite a few tea boxes using this same design.

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## DLJeffs (Nov 5, 2020)

Ray D said:


> I’ve made quite a few tea boxes using this same design. View attachment 195693


Hey Ray,
Do you glue the dividers in or do they just sit in there?


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## Ray D (Nov 5, 2020)

DLJeffs said:


> Hey Ray,
> Do you glue the dividers in or do they just sit in there?


This particular group of tea boxes were given away as gifts. Being that I wasn’t sure if the recipients were into tea or not I made them removable.

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## DLJeffs (Nov 7, 2020)

Splines cut and installed. Lesson: if you have a handle that extends outside the outer edge of the box, don't glue it on until after you do your splines. Mine got in the way and I had to cut extra spacers for my sled, yadda yadda. Didn't get them exact either. But they look okay. I thought the box looked a little unfinished so I also made these little corner decorations out of left over walnut. Sanded and all ready for final finish work now.

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## Ray D (Nov 8, 2020)

Doug, what did you use to cut your splines ? I’ll get a picture of my spline cutting jig?


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## DLJeffs (Nov 8, 2020)

Ray - I'll take a photo of the spline jig I made next time I get the camera out. It's pretty basic, rides along the table saw fence. It worked fine except for when my little handle got in the way. I used a fine tooth, narrow kerf blade by De Walt, it says for "extra fine finish" work. In a way it's too narrow. I cut the actual splines from a reel seat insert blank made of black ebony. It had two big cracks so couldn't use it for a reel seat. Just made real narrow cuts on my table saw.

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## DLJeffs (Nov 15, 2020)

Ray D said:


> Doug, what did you use to cut your splines ? I’ll get a picture of my spline cutting jig?



Ray -
Here's a photo of my spline jig. It rides along the face and top edge of my fence on my table saw.

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## Wildthings (Nov 15, 2020)

DLJeffs said:


> Ray -
> Here's a photo of my spline jig. It rides along the face and top edge of my fence on my table saw.
> 
> View attachment 196225


HEY!!!! what are you doing in my shop!! Looks just like mine LOL

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## Ray D (Nov 16, 2020)

DLJeffs said:


> Ray -
> Here's a photo of my spline jig. It rides along the face and top edge of my fence on my table saw.
> 
> View attachment 196225


Looks good Doug. Mine is similar. I’ll get a picture later. I was just trying to figure out why you had trouble cutting splines due to the box design.


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## Wildthings (Nov 16, 2020)

I think he installed the handle before cutting the splines and the handle was the problem

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## Ray D (Nov 16, 2020)

Wildthings said:


> I think he installed the handle before cutting the splines and the handle was the problem


Got ya....that makes sense. I make a similar design but my jig doesn’t interfere with the handle.


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## DLJeffs (Nov 16, 2020)

Wildthings said:


> I think he installed the handle before cutting the splines and the handle was the problem



That's exactly what I did wrong. Two sides worked perfectly, the other two the handle was in the way. So I stuck a couple small blocks of wood onto the jig to make room for the handle and I didn't get the set up right afterwards. So the spline cuts aren't the same length.

I suppose I could have kept the lid outward, away from the fence and then partially opened it so the handle wouldn't hit the jig. In other words, keep the bottom of the box against the fence side of the jig when cutting all 8 spline kerfs. Then just reposition the fence/jig so the splines would be cut in the right place. I guess I was trying to avoid cutting up my jig.

Lesson learned for the next box. Got a lid glued up so will be cutting the box miters today hopefully.


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## DLJeffs (Nov 16, 2020)

Wildthings said:


> HEY!!!! what are you doing in my shop!! Looks just like mine LOL


Ninja skills.


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## Ray D (Nov 16, 2020)

@DLJeffs My spline jig. Pretty much the same as yours. As you can see it gets used a lot. Lol


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## Wildthings (Nov 16, 2020)

DLJeffs said:


> I guess I was trying to avoid cutting up my jig.


Lord knows, just like mine, it's irreplaceable using that exotic lumber on it


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## Wildthings (Nov 16, 2020)

Ray D said:


> @DLJeffs My spline jig. Pretty much the same as yours. As you can see it gets used a lot. LolView attachment 196269


does it ride in the miter slot or up against the fence. Or both? Or?


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## Ray D (Nov 16, 2020)

Wildthings said:


> does it ride in the miter slot or up against the fence. Or both? Or?


Fence only


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## DLJeffs (Nov 16, 2020)

Wildthings said:


> Lord knows, just like mine, it's irreplaceable using that exotic lumber on it



I've been saving that C grade plywood for something special! And those 2X4's were left over from something, pretty sure it was cool but can't remember.

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## DLJeffs (Nov 16, 2020)

Ray D said:


> @DLJeffs My spline jig. Pretty much the same as yours. As you can see it gets used a lot. LolView attachment 196269


Do you ever get chip out with that large of gap between the blade and the box corner?


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## Ray D (Nov 17, 2020)

DLJeffs said:


> Do you ever get chip out with that large of gap between the blade and the box corner?


I can’t say I’ve ever noticed any chip out. Perhaps it’s due to the angle at which the blade contacts the wood...I don’t really know. I’ve probably been using this same one for about 20 years and it shows. Lol.


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