# Flame Box Elder



## bluedot

I hope this is the right spot to ask this question. How often do you find the red markings in Box Elder? Is it fairly common? Would you expect to find this in the a large part of the population or is it specific to certain places? Thanks for the help.

Dan:thanx:


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## Treecycle Hardwoods

Box elders produce the red coloring as a result of stress. Keep an eye out for distressed boxelders for your best chance of getting a red one.

Greg


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## Darkmoorwoods

Sounds the same as Big Leaf Maple music wood.. IMO it's a result of some tree's reaction to stress, sort of a recessive genetic thing combined with environment


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## phinds

Treecycle Hardwoods said:


> Box elders produce the red coloring as a result of stress. Keep an eye out for distressed boxelders for your best chance of getting a red one.
> 
> Greg



That is actually a misleading statement. Stress does NOT always cause flame in box elder and insect trails usually DO cause flame. You could, of course, contend that insect damage is a form of stress, but that would be outside the normal definition.

For a more extensive discussion, see my box elder page.


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## jimmyjames

Its fungus that causes the coloring which eventually leads to rotten and hollow box elder trees.


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## Mike1950

I like Marcus's Idea-threaten the tree every other day!!!:rotflmao3::rotflmao3:
The guy I get my quilted from thinks it is genetic- you find one in a group and the rest will be quilted. Just his opinion- of course that is after 40 + yrs of working with them.


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## rob3232

phinds said:


> Treecycle Hardwoods said:
> 
> 
> 
> Box elders produce the red coloring as a result of stress. Keep an eye out for distressed boxelders for your best chance of getting a red one.
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is actually a misleading statement. Stress does NOT always cause flame in box elder and insect trails usually DO cause flame. You could, of course, contend that insect damage is a form of stress, but that would be outside the normal definition.
> 
> For a more extensive discussion, see my box elder page.
Click to expand...

So,what is the normal definition? You claim to be an expert on this stuff but you cannot offer any info other than what is on "your" site. Please do not be offended but I find it hard to believe you are the expert on anything related to wood. I really like your site but am sick of your snobby comments. If I get kicked off for this I don't care.


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## Kevin

rob3232 said:


> phinds said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Treecycle Hardwoods said:
> 
> 
> 
> Box elders produce the red coloring as a result of stress. Keep an eye out for distressed boxelders for your best chance of getting a red one.
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is actually a misleading statement. Stress does NOT always cause flame in box elder and insect trails usually DO cause flame. You could, of course, contend that insect damage is a form of stress, but that would be outside the normal definition.
> 
> For a more extensive discussion, see my box elder page.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So,what is the normal definition? You claim to be an expert on this stuff but you cannot offer any info other than what is on "your" site. Please do not be offended but I find it hard to believe you are the expert on anything related to wood. I really like your site but am sick of your snobby comments. If I get kicked off for this I don't care.
Click to expand...


All he did was give his opinion, and referred you to a more lengthy discussion about the topic. No need to get your panties in a wad (I *am* an expert on panties :wacko1: ).


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## rob3232

Kevin said:


> rob3232 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> phinds said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Treecycle Hardwoods said:
> 
> 
> 
> Box elders produce the red coloring as a result of stress. Keep an eye out for distressed boxelders for your best chance of getting a red one.
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is actually a misleading statement. Stress does NOT always cause flame in box elder and insect trails usually DO cause flame. You could, of course, contend that insect damage is a form of stress, but that would be outside the normal definition.
> 
> For a more extensive discussion, see my box elder page.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So,what is the normal definition? You claim to be an expert on this stuff but you cannot offer any info other than what is on "your" site. Please do not be offended but I find it hard to believe you are the expert on anything related to wood. I really like your site but am sick of your snobby comments. If I get kicked off for this I don't care.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All he did was give his opinion, and referred you to a more lengthy discussion about the topic. No need to get your panties in a wad (I *am* an expert on panties :wacko1: ).
Click to expand...

Thank you sir, and Sorry Paul ! I will keep my wadded panties to my self! But will not back down from the snobby comments.


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## Kevin

No big deal - tomorrow is a new day. 

:peace:


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## robert flynt

If a person going to contradict someone it would be better to use more tact and less bluntness to win freinds and influence people. Embaressing someone, if done on purpose, to show your superior intellect is not something a nice fellow should do. Whe should all strive to consider feeling and how what you write will be interpided. If I step on someones toes please let me know and I'll be the first to apoligize.


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## NYWoodturner

robert flynt said:


> If a person going to contradict someone it would be better to use more tact and less bluntness to win freinds and influence people. Embaressing someone, if done on purpose, to show your superior intellect is not something a nice fellow should do. Whe should all strive to consider feeling and how what you write will be interpided. If I step on someones toes please let me know and I'll be the first to apoligize.



Well said Robert. Thank You
Scott


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## rob3232

robert flynt said:


> If a person going to contradict someone it would be better to use more tact and less bluntness to win freinds and influence people. Embaressing someone, if done on purpose, to show your superior intellect is not something a nice fellow should do.



Thank you , I do not claim to be a person of surperior intellect . I want to make friends and do not want to embarrise anybody. What would your thoughts be if some one tried to embariss you?


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## NYWoodturner

rob3232 said:


> robert flynt said:
> 
> 
> 
> If a person going to contradict someone it would be better to use more tact and less bluntness to win freinds and influence people. Embaressing someone, if done on purpose, to show your superior intellect is not something a nice fellow should do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you , I do not claim to be a person of surperior intellect . I want to make friends and do not want to embarrise anybody. What would your thoughts be if some one tried to embariss you?
Click to expand...


Rob - I appreciate and respect your comments. I don't think I can improve on what Robert Flynt wrote though. Feel free to PM me with more thoughts but I think this is best left in the rearview mirror. 
Scott


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## robert flynt

rob3232 said:


> robert flynt said:
> 
> 
> 
> If a person going to contradict someone it would be better to use more tact and less bluntness to win freinds and influence people. Embaressing someone, if done on purpose, to show your superior intellect is not something a nice fellow should do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you , I do not claim to be a person of surperior intellect . I want to make friends and do not want to embarrise anybody. What would your thoughts be if some one tried to embariss you?
Click to expand...

I would brissle up like a porqupine If it was done on purpose. I do know how you feel because it hard to guess a persons mine set by there writing. If we could hear the tone of there voice we would know for sure. This is something I struggle with And I like you don't know how to take some comments. Because of this I use tact and try to state what I say about a subject as my opinion not fact.


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## phinds

As I stated on the site page, there is great contention about the cause of flame in box elder, and I don't claim to have the answer, just a discussion showing all points of view.

If you want to stick with only one point of view, you can certainly do that, but I think you'll be missing out on some valid information.


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## jimmyjames

Is a fungal symbiosis , all ambrosia beetles carry a fungus that they carry with them, it gets on the wood and multiplies and then the beetles eats the fungus, the information is easy to find. That said fungus follows the grain of the wood and causes the stripes. That same fungus or many other types of fungus is found on the barks of all trees and can get into the tree other way and cause the coloring but not the pronounced stripes like in ambrosia flamed box elder like Kevin's, the bore holes and "direct injection" of the fungus by the beetle gets the fungus into the wood and the sap carries it. That's why the coloring is heavily pronounced in the pith area where the sap runs heavy.


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## Treecycle Hardwoods

Stress can be many things...... from my own personal experience milling FBE logs you can find red coloring from more than just ambrosia beetles here are a few examples.

Metal--

I have seen small pockets of red around nails, screws, bolts ect. With no beetles present.

A more extreme case of metal is when a boxelder grows into a fence or wire. You get lots of red but usless wood.

Poor soil or growing conditions. I have personally been involved in removing a boxelder from a low lying area where water routinely puddled around the tree. The tree was suffering from root rot (stress) and began to decline. The wood was really red in those logs.

BUGS--- but not ambrosia beetles. Ants can invade a living tree. In each log I received to date infested with ants the red color came with. This is not true of post mortem ant colonization of a log. 


It is common knowledge that ambrosia beetles aide in making boxelders so beautiful. They do so with great predictability unlike the other stress factors a tree can endure. In my original post I used the term "stress" as a habit from spending 10 years in the green industry providing tree & lawn care. It is a very broad stroke word that can easily be picked apart. In terms of a living tree stress can be anything from girdling roots to Dutch elm disease. Seeing as the flame red occurs during the living years of the tree I applied the term "stress". Ambrosia beetles fall into that category along with other stresses known to cause the red coloring to occur in the boxelder tree.





Greg


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## Kevin

jimmyjames said:


> Is a fungal symbiosis , all ambrosia beetles carry a fungus that they carry with them, it gets on the wood and multiplies and then the beetles eats the fungus, the information is easy to find. That said fungus follows the grain of the wood and causes the stripes. That same fungus or many other types of fungus is found on the barks of all trees and can get into the tree other way and cause the coloring but not the pronounced stripes like in ambrosia flamed box elder like Kevin's, the bore holes and "direct injection" of the fungus by the beetle gets the fungus into the wood and the sap carries it. That's why the coloring is heavily pronounced in the pith area where the sap runs heavy.





Jim, I didn't know tree sap ran through the pith of trees.  

Also, regarding the fungus being the reason, based on what I have read over the years it isn't quite that simple. I know of at least one university program that tried to produce flames in box elder trees for eventual use for commercial purposes; they tried to introduce the suspected fungi via inoculation and many other means but could never get trees to produce flames. They studied every aspect they could think of at the cellular level and in the end decided they weren't even sure that the flames are caused by the fungi or at least only the fungi anyway. This was a study that lasted several years. 

It's probably been 15 or 20 years since the research was done so if you are aware of a more recent one I'd like to read it.


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## robert flynt

Not to change the subject, but someone told me there has been experamenting done with injecting dyes into trees that are still living. Does anyone have any knowledge about this?


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## phinds

Treecycle Hardwoods said:


> Poor soil or growing conditions. I have personally been involved in removing a boxelder from a low lying area where water routinely puddled around the tree. The tree was suffering from root rot (stress) and began to decline. The wood was really red in those logs.



Greg. Very interesting information. Thanks for that long discussion. I had not previously heard of the bit that I've left in quotes above. I'll add that to the discussion on my site.

EDIT: I've changed part of my site discussion to read as follows. Have I correctly restated what you said?

The process is described variously as one or the other or both of two separate possible causes. The first cause is a fungus, brought into the tree by a bug attack. The second cause is any form of stress, such as a bug attack, wire wrapped around a tree, something (a fence post or another tree) pushing up against the tree, or long-term bending stress caused by wind or heavy snow. I've also seen a discussion on a wood forum stating that sometimes poor soil conditions and long-term pooling of water around the base of a tree can cause stress in the bottom of the tree that results in wide-spread red in the base of the tree.


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## Kevin

The thousands of FBE trees in my enchanted forest are all flamed and every single one of them have two things in common:

1) They all grow in a flood plain
2) They are all infested with borers

This is not to say either or both are the cause or causes either in whole or in part, but it seems to me I should find one single tree over the past years not flamed. But I haven't found a single one out of the thousands of logs I have milled.


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## phinds

Kevin, that's interesting. I don't remember your having told me in our previous discussions that they all grow in a flood plain, but it could be that you DID and I just didn't attach any significance to it. As I've mentioned in several places it seems to me that you have the best flamed box elder anywhere, period, so maybe the flood plain IS the reason.


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## Kevin

phinds said:


> Kevin, that's interesting. I don't remember your having told me in our previous discussions that they all grow in a flood plain, ...



I probably didn't unless I've slipped a time or two but I don't remember doing so. Until recently I've been pretty protective of any info I believe would be helpful to others who might want to locate a patch like mine. I don't know that a flood plain with acer negundo in it would be flamed ones like mine, but I haven't advertised it just in case. Now that I'll be logging very little in the future I'm more willing to discuss what I know, what I think I know, my opinions, and any conjecture I may have based on circumstantial evidence. Unfortunately, I can't tell anyone what I don't know, although some may say that's never stopped me before.


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## phinds

Kevin said:


> ... I can't tell anyone what I don't know, although some may say that's never stopped me before.



Why, I can't believe that anyone could possibly think that about either one of us.


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## kullman

Kevin said:


> jimmyjames said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is a fungal symbiosis , all ambrosia beetles carry a fungus that they carry with them, it gets on the wood and multiplies and then the beetles eats the fungus, the information is easy to find. That said fungus follows the grain of the wood and causes the stripes. That same fungus or many other types of fungus is found on the barks of all trees and can get into the tree other way and cause the coloring but not the pronounced stripes like in ambrosia flamed box elder like Kevin's, the bore holes and "direct injection" of the fungus by the beetle gets the fungus into the wood and the sap carries it. That's why the coloring is heavily pronounced in the pith area where the sap runs heavy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jim, I didn't know tree sap ran through the pith of trees.
> 
> Also, regarding the fungus being the reason, based on what I have read over the years it isn't quite that simple. I know of at least one university program that tried to produce flames in box elder trees for eventual use for commercial purposes; they tried to introduce the suspected fungi via inoculation and many other means but could never get trees to produce flames. They studied every aspect they could think of at the cellular level and in the end decided they weren't even sure that the flames are caused by the fungi or at least only the fungi anyway. This was a study that lasted several years.
> 
> It's probably been 15 or 20 years since the research was done so if you are aware of a more recent one I'd like to read it.
Click to expand...


This wood is awesome would love to get ahold of some big pieces. This is what I found online from a mill in north texas that consistently works with it. I am no expert on it but it sure is beautiful and interesting for sure.

[attachment=29452]


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## Treecycle Hardwoods

Kullman I have some big pieces. If you want to chat about it send me a pm so we don't consume this thread. 


Kevin is that some of your FBE kullman pulled up?


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## jimmyjames

I think the heavy striped flamed box elder like you have Kevin could be made just like tap scar maple, tap scar maple looks the same as ambrosia maple its just the holes are bigger, the holes are just a highway for the fungus or whatever causes the staining, you could take a 3/16" drill bit long enough to drill to the heart of a tree and drill holes all over it, I bet it would work the same, I may try it, may even be able to create patterns in the wood with strategically placed drill holes.... we have a half dozen box elders on the farm, I may go drill some holes in them and cut one down next year and see if it did anything..


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## Kevin

Treecycle Hardwoods said:


> Kullman I have some big pieces. If you want to chat about it send me a pm so we don't consume this thread.
> 
> 
> Kevin is that some of your FBE kullman pulled up?



Yes, it's a pic off one of my websites.


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## kazuma78

I think that is one of Kevins. I think he dubbed it "fire angel" or something along those lines.


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## Kevin

kazuma78 said:


> I think that is one of Kevins. I think he dubbed it "fire angel" or something along those lines.



That's correct but it was an Italian customer who named it. I believe he called it _fuoco angelo_ or something like that.


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## kazuma78

Kevin said:


> That's correct but it was an Italian customer who named it. I believe he called it _fuoco angelo_ or something like that.



Thats right. You said he liked it but your wife liked it more


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## kullman

Yes i got the info from kevin's website now if i could just get him to sell me some of that pretty wood!!:hookup:


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## phinds

jimmyjames said:


> I think the heavy striped flamed box elder like you have Kevin could be made just like tap scar maple, tap scar maple looks the same as ambrosia maple its just the holes are bigger, the holes are just a highway for the fungus or whatever causes the staining, you could take a 3/16" drill bit long enough to drill to the heart of a tree and drill holes all over it, I bet it would work the same, I may try it, may even be able to create patterns in the wood with strategically placed drill holes.... we have a half dozen box elders on the farm, I may go drill some holes in them and cut one down next year and see if it did anything..



What would assure you of getting the fungus into the holes ?


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## jimmyjames

phinds said:


> jimmyjames said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the heavy striped flamed box elder like you have Kevin could be made just like tap scar maple, tap scar maple looks the same as ambrosia maple its just the holes are bigger, the holes are just a highway for the fungus or whatever causes the staining, you could take a 3/16" drill bit long enough to drill to the heart of a tree and drill holes all over it, I bet it would work the same, I may try it, may even be able to create patterns in the wood with strategically placed drill holes.... we have a half dozen box elders on the farm, I may go drill some holes in them and cut one down next year and see if it did anything..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What would assure you of getting the fungus into the holes ?
Click to expand...


That said fungus is already present, fungus is everywhere, it may just take time


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## jimmyjames

jimmyjames said:


> phinds said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimmyjames said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the heavy striped flamed box elder like you have Kevin could be made just like tap scar maple, tap scar maple looks the same as ambrosia maple its just the holes are bigger, the holes are just a highway for the fungus or whatever causes the staining, you could take a 3/16" drill bit long enough to drill to the heart of a tree and drill holes all over it, I bet it would work the same, I may try it, may even be able to create patterns in the wood with strategically placed drill holes.... we have a half dozen box elders on the farm, I may go drill some holes in them and cut one down next year and see if it did anything..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What would assure you of getting the fungus into the holes ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That said fungus is already present, fungus is everywhere, it may just take time
Click to expand...


I'm not saying I guarantee it will work but it looks like every maple tree with a tap hole gets stripes, why wouldn't it work in box elder? Has anybody seen maple with tap scars that doesn't have a strike where the tap hole is? Maybe its not a fungus I don't know, whatever it is a hole in those trees that causes a stripe. And I have never seen flamed box elder like Kevin's that didn't have bore holes, box elder without bore holes =pink somewhat red highlights, box elder with bore holes =heavy retarderded crazy true awesome flame supernatural starburst wild crazy insane stripes and patterns


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## Kevin

If you can do it, you will succeed *where others have failed*. Guys and gals who are Ph.D's with laboratories, test ares in forests, university funding and microscopes and perti dishes etc. But that's not to say you can't do it. 




jimmyjames said:


> That said fungus is already present, fungus is everywhere . . .



If the fungus is the cause, and the fungus is already everywhere, shouldn't it already be flamed?


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## Treecycle Hardwoods

jimmyjames said:


> jimmyjames said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> phinds said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimmyjames said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the heavy striped flamed box elder like you have Kevin could be made just like tap scar maple, tap scar maple looks the same as ambrosia maple its just the holes are bigger, the holes are just a highway for the fungus or whatever causes the staining, you could take a 3/16" drill bit long enough to drill to the heart of a tree and drill holes all over it, I bet it would work the same, I may try it, may even be able to create patterns in the wood with strategically placed drill holes.... we have a half dozen box elders on the farm, I may go drill some holes in them and cut one down next year and see if it did anything..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What would assure you of getting the fungus into the holes ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That said fungus is already present, fungus is everywhere, it may just take time
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not saying I guarantee it will work but it looks like every maple tree with a tap hole gets stripes, why wouldn't it work in box elder? Has anybody seen maple with tap scars that doesn't have a strike where the tap hole is? Maybe its not a fungus I don't know, whatever it is a hole in those trees that causes a stripe. And I have never seen flamed box elder like Kevin's that didn't have bore holes, box elder without bore holes =pink somewhat red highlights, box elder with bore holes =heavy retarderded crazy true awesome flame supernatural starburst wild crazy insane stripes and patterns
Click to expand...


Keep in mind that metal will cause color change to black, dark purple, or gray alone with no fungus present. I would peg that as a more likely source of tap hole color change than a fungus. I am not ruling out a fungus as a cause but metal has a very distinct reaction in wood color change.


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## jimmyjames

Treecycle Hardwoods said:


> jimmyjames said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimmyjames said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> phinds said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimmyjames said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the heavy striped flamed box elder like you have Kevin could be made just like tap scar maple, tap scar maple looks the same as ambrosia maple its just the holes are bigger, the holes are just a highway for the fungus or whatever causes the staining, you could take a 3/16" drill bit long enough to drill to the heart of a tree and drill holes all over it, I bet it would work the same, I may try it, may even be able to create patterns in the wood with strategically placed drill holes.... we have a half dozen box elders on the farm, I may go drill some holes in them and cut one down next year and see if it did anything..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What would assure you of getting the fungus into the holes ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That said fungus is already present, fungus is everywhere, it may just take time
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not saying I guarantee it will work but it looks like every maple tree with a tap hole gets stripes, why wouldn't it work in box elder? Has anybody seen maple with tap scars that doesn't have a strike where the tap hole is? Maybe its not a fungus I don't know, whatever it is a hole in those trees that causes a stripe. And I have never seen flamed box elder like Kevin's that didn't have bore holes, box elder without bore holes =pink somewhat red highlights, box elder with bore holes =heavy retarderded crazy true awesome flame supernatural starburst wild crazy insane stripes and patterns
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that metal will cause color change to black, dark purple, or gray alone with no fungus present. I would peg that as a more likely source of tap hole color change than a fungus. I am not ruling out a fungus as a cause but metal has a very distinct reaction in wood color change.
Click to expand...


That is true, but when they drill tap holes from bark to pith the tap itself only goes in the tree a couple of inches correct?


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## Treecycle Hardwoods

jimmyjames said:


> Treecycle Hardwoods said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimmyjames said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimmyjames said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> phinds said:
> 
> 
> 
> What would assure you of getting the fungus into the holes ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That said fungus is already present, fungus is everywhere, it may just take time
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not saying I guarantee it will work but it looks like every maple tree with a tap hole gets stripes, why wouldn't it work in box elder? Has anybody seen maple with tap scars that doesn't have a strike where the tap hole is? Maybe its not a fungus I don't know, whatever it is a hole in those trees that causes a stripe. And I have never seen flamed box elder like Kevin's that didn't have bore holes, box elder without bore holes =pink somewhat red highlights, box elder with bore holes =heavy retarderded crazy true awesome flame supernatural starburst wild crazy insane stripes and patterns
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that metal will cause color change to black, dark purple, or gray alone with no fungus present. I would peg that as a more likely source of tap hole color change than a fungus. I am not ruling out a fungus as a cause but metal has a very distinct reaction in wood color change.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is true, but when they drill tap holes from bark to pith the tap itself only goes in the tree a couple of inches correct?
Click to expand...


yip that is right but from there the tree has it's own mechanisms to move stuff up and down along with in and out from the insertion point of the tap, nail, etc... The mineral deposits go with the sap/water the tree is moving around.


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## jimmyjames

Kevin said:


> If you can do it, you will succeed *where others have failed*. Guys and gals who are Ph.D's with laboratories, test ares in forests, university funding and microscopes and perti dishes etc. But that's not to say you can't do it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimmyjames said:
> 
> 
> 
> That said fungus is already present, fungus is everywhere . . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the fungus is the cause, and the fungus is already everywhere, shouldn't it already be flamed?
Click to expand...



Maybe my definition of flamed is incorrect, flamed box elder to me is what you have Kevin, with bore holes and highly defined dark red and sometimes almost black "flame licks" not the tiny highlights and whispers of pink that most call flamed box elder. Its a fact that without the bore holes you do not get the flamed box elder like you have kevin. So for me I put together known fact that no bore holes = boring, I've seen flamed box elder on eBay that looks a lot like yours and yes it has the bore holes. Maybe its just the bore holes them self and has nothing to do with fungus. And yes fungus is everywhere, you breathe in more fungus spores in 1 day then steps you will take in your entire life, its everywhere. Maybe it is just the bore holes them self producing stress, I don't know, the colors in tap scar maple stripes are the exact same color and style as ambrosia, I have both sitting right in front of me as I type, the only difference in the 2 is the size of the the hole from the tap and the ambrosia beetle, the colors are exactly the same, and I mean exactly the same. If it was from the metal it surely would look somewhat different, regardless it made stripes in the wood, if the metal made the red flame stripes I would go drive 16" lag bolts into the tree everywhere.....


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## phinds

jimmyjames said:


> the colors in tap scar maple stripes are the exact same color and style as ambrosia, I have both sitting right in front of me as I type, the only difference in the 2 is the size of the the hole from the tap and the ambrosia beetle, the colors are exactly the same, and I mean exactly the same.



Hey, that's good to know. Thanks.

I've seen pics of tap wood but never paid much attention to it and I had always assumed (I'm always making bad assumptions) that the color in tap wood was due to the metal and was not the same as ambrosia.


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## jimmyjames

In your flamed trees Kevin on the outside of the tree how many bore holes are there per square foot roughly? I'm guessing by the looks of most ambrosia maple and the photos of your b.e. there may be 2-4 holes per square foot? When I have some free time I'm going to go drill some holes in one of our crappy silver maples and in part of one of our box elder trees, I plan on taking them down next fall anyway to remove the fence line on our property


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## Kevin

I haven't made an actual field study out of it but I know it varies a lot. I see holes highly concentrated and I see large patches with nothing. But once the get inside they make tunnels everywhere. When they start to get into the inner bark they turn back around and go deeper gain and also run parallel patterns. So they make a lot of zig zags inside the tree - a lot more than just the entrance holes.


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## Smudge

Kevin (and others obviously) .. here is a picture from one of the logs I had partially milled out of the wood I mentioned in the post yesterday. You mentioned that it was not considered "flamed". There isn't a lot of it here, but it does look like flames to me. Is there some distinction of a percentage that it has to have to be considered that?

Thanks. Still learning but I appreciate the information.


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## Alan Sweet

Darn. Here I was planning to go out and threaten some trees. I even thought about calling the NSA or IRS on a couple. But, if all I end up with is trees with low self esteem and in need of government therapy, I may forgo the attempt of stressing the trees.


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