# Help with Tool position and type



## DLJeffs (Dec 20, 2020)

I have a couple questions for you more experienced turners. I use a metal lathe for turning my reel seat spacers. So my tool position is sort of fixed but with shims I can move it up or down a little. The tool rest is a small table which can move in / out and along the length of the lathe bed. I can move it manually or allow the lathe to move it a pre-designated speed. I got a set of 5 factory tool bits but the only one I've used is the flat, square bit. The others are slanted right, slanted left, triangular point, and one other I can't recall. I also bought a couple HSS blanks and ground my own tools, which I made nearly round (probably more oval at the tip). I tried to grind the top layer to make it as close to the tools I see wood turners use but my grinder wheel can't get that shape. The actual tooling bits are secured on the tool rest table by three hex head bolts. So here's my questions:

1. I mostly use the rounded HSS bit. I use the square bit to trim the final edges where the barrel of the reel seat goes and to make a groove nearly through the piece where I plan to cut it off. Are those the best tools I should be using? Do you have any other recommendations regarding tools that would work better? Is there a better shape I could grind the HSS bit to?

2. What's the best position for the tool bit relative to the piece I'm turning? I have tried it right at the center point of the piece I'm turning. And I've tried putting shims in and taking shims out to move the tool bit slightly above mid-point and slightly below mid-point. I think the tool pushes the piece up or down slightly when I'm anywhere except at the mid-line. 

Open to any additional guidance too. I'm getting ready to stabilize and then turn a few more spacers (some spalted walnut and spalted ash I got here).
Thanks in advance.


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## Gdurfey (Dec 20, 2020)

Wow, so again, I am not the best to be answering, but I will throw out some thoughts. The first tool is a miniature of common scrapers. You can go to https://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/ and look up turning tools and find scrapers that look just like that, different sizes, and with different radius.

for wood turning, I was tought to go just a bit higher than center but tilt the front down and bring it up into the work. You don’t have that option so I think going center makes sense to me (remember my first words of this response).

your square tool reminds me of a carbide tool......well, it could be. The 3 common carbide turning tools these days are square, round, and a diamond shape for detail work. Again, these are used at center height and are being used by turners now to do almost everything instead of traditional tools.

So, those are my thoughts. I think you do incredible work and have adapted quite well Using the tools you have. We have several in the group that I admire for their ingenuity and Doug, you are right with them!


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## trc65 (Dec 20, 2020)

My only thought is that when cutting wood, you can get a better(cleaner) cut when the cutting edge is around 45° to the surface of the wood instead of flat. Many call it a sheer cut when a scraper or the wing of a gouge is held at that angle as a final cleaning cut.

Would probably be a major PITA to try and grind a 45° angle on the tip of the bit, but what about grinding flats on two opposite edges of a bit so you could clamp it at 45°?

Second thought, instead of trying to get a 45, how about grinding one of the round bits into a negative rake scraper?

Of course, if you are happy with the surface, no need to try either of those ideas.

As to positioning, I'd keep the cutting edge on center.


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## Tony (Dec 20, 2020)

@woodtickgreg

Reactions: Agree 1


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## DLJeffs (Dec 20, 2020)

Gdurfey said:


> Wow, so again, I am not the best to be answering, but I will throw out some thoughts. The first tool is a miniature of common scrapers. You can go to https://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/ and look up turning tools and find scrapers that look just like that, different sizes, and with different radius.
> 
> for wood turning, I was tought to go just a bit higher than center but tilt the front down and bring it up into the work. You don’t have that option so I think going center makes sense to me (remember my first words of this response).
> 
> ...


Thanks Garry (for the advice as well as the kind words). I've seen those carbide tools and had the same thought you did - they aren't much different. But then I watch good turners and they always do what Tim is saying - position the tool so it slices or cuts, rather than scrapes. I just don't know how to accomplish that with the design of my tool rest. I've thought about trying to buy one of those round tools (look like a piece of celery, I don't know the names) and then try to grind the round shaft so it would clamp into my tool rest. But then I read or hear " put the bevel on the wood first and then turn the cutting edge into the wood". I couldn't do that so I don't know if it would be worth the effort.

Thanks also to Tim. I have two more of those HSS blank tools and I might be able to grind a 45 degree angle into the shaft so it would cut more than scrape (or maybe grind the cutting edge to a 45, I just can't grind the hollow celery shape. If I did that, would you keep the cutting edge rounded? Sorry, I don't know what a rake scraper is. I'm usually happy with the final but I feel like I have to take such tiny cuts it takes me forever and was hoping maybe some tips from you all would let me go a little faster.


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## trc65 (Dec 20, 2020)

A negative rake scraper is one that has a bottom and top bevel ground in it. Not used for fast cutting, but rather for finishing cuts to get rid of tool marks and other imperfections prior to sanding. Not the tool if you are looking for a faster cut. Here's a link that describes the negative rake more in depth. 





__





Wood Lathe Turning Negative Rake Scrapers Explained | Carter and Son Toolworks


Negative rake scrapers have taken the woodturning world by storm. We provide our favorite tutorials, tips and sharpening methods for these nifty wood lathe turning tools.




carterandsontoolworks.com





The tool that looks like a celery stalk is just called a gouge. Either a bowl gouge, or in your case a spindle gouge since you are turning between centers.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Nubsnstubs (Dec 21, 2020)

Doug, it looks like that tool holder on your compound slide would accommodate something as large as 1 1/4" thick. If I'm reading these comments about setting your tool a 45 degrees, all you would need is a couple of V blocks. They are pretty common in machine shops, so finding them would be easy. You could also make a couple using 3/8-1/2" thick x 3/4 wide x 6" long piece of aluminum on a table saw. Set the saw blade at 45 degrees, raise to to 1/4" and make a cut. Turn it around for the second cut. Refine the cut if you have to to remove anything from the convergence point. Doesn't matter if there is a groove, but you can't have anything where the 2 cuts converge. Using any square tool, you would just lay the tool at 45 degrees in the V blocks and lock it in. Round tools would work just as well as you could use it at any angle. It wouldn't be as accurate as V blocks in machine shops, but you would at least have an additional tool holder accessory.
If I didn't read the comments correctly, please let me know. ..... Jerry (in Tucson)

Reactions: Like 1


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## woodtickgreg (Dec 21, 2020)

I think in order for you to accomplish what you are trying to do on a metal lathe you are going to have to experiment with a few things. First is the spindle speed needs to turn really fast, about 900 to 1,000 rpm. Next thing you need to understand is that to cut wood the cutters need to be razor sharp, not like the hss cutters off the grinder. Carbide inserts that are used for wood turning tools are very different than the ones for metal work. You can make a simple cutter holder for your metal lathe by just drilling and tapping a hole in some square stock to attach a wood cutter insert to the top and then put that in your tool holder. Light cuts and high speed will work the best.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## vegas urban lumber (Dec 21, 2020)

DLJeffs said:


> I have a couple questions for you more experienced turners. I use a metal lathe for turning my reel seat spacers. So my tool position is sort of fixed but with shims I can move it up or down a little. The tool rest is a small table which can move in / out and along the length of the lathe bed. I can move it manually or allow the lathe to move it a pre-designated speed. I got a set of 5 factory tool bits but the only one I've used is the flat, square bit. The others are slanted right, slanted left, triangular point, and one other I can't recall. I also bought a couple HSS blanks and ground my own tools, which I made nearly round (probably more oval at the tip). I tried to grind the top layer to make it as close to the tools I see wood turners use but my grinder wheel can't get that shape. The actual tooling bits are secured on the tool rest table by three hex head bolts. So here's my questions:
> 
> 1. I mostly use the rounded HSS bit. I use the square bit to trim the final edges where the barrel of the reel seat goes and to make a groove nearly through the piece where I plan to cut it off. Are those the best tools I should be using? Do you have any other recommendations regarding tools that would work better? Is there a better shape I could grind the HSS bit to?
> 
> ...


can you build a manual tool rest that bolts onto your existing carriage and then use regular wood lathe tools?

Reactions: Like 1


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## DLJeffs (Dec 21, 2020)

Nubsnstubs said:


> Doug, it looks like that tool holder on your compound slide would accommodate something as large as 1 1/4" thick. If I'm reading these comments about setting your tool a 45 degrees, all you would need is a couple of V blocks. They are pretty common in machine shops, so finding them would be easy. You could also make a couple using 3/8-1/2" thick x 3/4 wide x 6" long piece of aluminum on a table saw. Set the saw blade at 45 degrees, raise to to 1/4" and make a cut. Turn it around for the second cut. Refine the cut if you have to to remove anything from the convergence point. Doesn't matter if there is a groove, but you can't have anything where the 2 cuts converge. Using any square tool, you would just lay the tool at 45 degrees in the V blocks and lock it in. Round tools would work just as well as you could use it at any angle. It wouldn't be as accurate as V blocks in machine shops, but you would at least have an additional tool holder accessory.
> If I didn't read the comments correctly, please let me know. ..... Jerry (in Tucson)


Thanks Jerry. Not sure I have 1.25" clearance on the tool rest but probably enough to accommodate small V blocks so your idea is a good one. If I am understanding correctly, you'd put a V block under the tool and a second V block on top and then tighten the set screws to squeeze the tool between the V blocks? I know aluminum is softer than the steel / carbide tips on my saw blade but that won't hurt the saw? I've never heard of cutting aluminum on a table saw. The other thing I have to consider is how many more of these spacers will I make and how much effort do i want to make trying to speed things up.

One other thing - if I made V blocks, would the rounded HSS tool be the preferred tool - provided I sharpened it as Greg mentions?


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## DLJeffs (Dec 21, 2020)

woodtickgreg said:


> I think in order for you to accomplish what you are trying to do on a metal lathe you are going to have to experiment with a few things. First is the spindle speed needs to turn really fast, about 900 to 1,000 rpm. Next thing you need to understand is that to cut wood the cutters need to be razor sharp, not like the hss cutters off the grinder. Carbide inserts that are used for wood turning tools are very different than the ones for metal work. You can make a simple cutter holder for your metal lathe by just drilling and tapping a hole in some square stock to attach a wood cutter insert to the top and then put that in your tool holder. Light cuts and high speed will work the best.


Thanks Greg. By moving the V belts I can set my lathe speed from 120 - 2000rpm. I've been turning my spacers at 620 rpm. The next setting up is 1300 rpm. That just felt scary fast to me. Would you go with the higher speed? I can work my tool bits on sharpening stones to get them a little sharper and I'll try that. I'm wondering though that if I'm still restricted to light cuts, would it make enough of a difference to be worth the time. I see you wood turners just melt wood off a blank and it just makes me think I should be able to go a little faster until I get close to my final diameters. But hey, I'm retired and I have time and what else would I do. right?


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## DLJeffs (Dec 21, 2020)

vegas urban lumber said:


> can you build a manual tool rest that bolts onto your existing carriage and then use regular wood lathe tools?


Thanks Trev. I've thought about that but it wouldn't be easy and would need some welding. I've concluded that's definitely more effort than I want to undertake.


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## Gdurfey (Dec 21, 2020)

DLJeffs said:


> Thanks Greg. By moving the V belts I can set my lathe speed from 120 - 2000rpm. I've been turning my spacers at 620 rpm. The next setting up is 1300 rpm. That just felt scary fast to me. Would you go with the higher speed? I can work my tool bits on sharpening stones to get them a little sharper and I'll try that. I'm wondering though that if I'm still restricted to light cuts, would it make enough of a difference to be worth the time. I see you wood turners just melt wood off a blank and it just makes me think I should be able to go a little faster until I get close to my final diameters. But hey, I'm retired and I have time and what else would I do. right?


Doug, I have been encourage to turn at the highest speed I am comfortable with and i know I still turn at slower speeds than others. For something the size of a reel seat, I think of turning a pen and I spin those anywhere from 2000-3000 without thinking much about it. I probably turn my acrylics towards the bottom of that range because I don't feel as comfortable with those, but that is the only reason. The less inertial mass, the higher you can spin it.

On presenting the carbide straight or at an angle, my carbide tools encourage and require a straight scraping approach. I did briefly have a different carbide tool that required an angled approach (sold by Rockler for reference) and I never got comfortable with it.

Again, just my thoughts.


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## woodtickgreg (Dec 21, 2020)

Some people don't consider me a turner because I ventured to the dark side and use carbide insert tools almost exclusively, so I have a lot of experience with them. I make my own tools and also do some metal work and machining with a lathe and mill. The tool holder I am recommending you make will solve most of your problems and will be easy to make. I see you are using square hss tool bits, all you need is a piece of square cold roll steel the same size. Get a round carbide cutter from any wood working store or online, drill a hole and tap it for the screw and mount the cutter to the top of the cold roll bar. Adjust your tool holder so that the cutter is in the center of the work or very slightly below. Crank up the speed and have at it. Try some scrap wood until you figure out depth of cut and lathe speed etc, carbide wood working cutters live high speed! You will be amazed at the difference one of these cutters makes.

Reactions: Like 2 | Great Post 1 | Informative 1


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## Nubsnstubs (Dec 21, 2020)

DLJeffs said:


> Thanks Jerry. Not sure I have 1.25" clearance on the tool rest but probably enough to accommodate small V blocks so your idea is a good one. If I am understanding correctly, you'd put a V block under the tool and a second V block on top and then tighten the set screws to squeeze the tool between the V blocks? * I know aluminum is softer than the steel / carbide tips on my saw blade but that won't hurt the saw? * I've never heard of cutting aluminum on a table saw. The other thing I have to consider is how many more of these spacers will I make and how much effort do i want to make trying to speed things up.
> 
> One other thing - if I made V blocks, would the rounded HSS tool be the preferred tool - provided I sharpened it as Greg mentions?


Doug, if you look at a lot of cut edges on aluminum, you'll see saw marks. Copper, brass, pot metal, silver, gold and stuff like that is blade safe. You would need to use a wax or lube on aluminum to keep the build up from happening. When I cut, I run a bead of transmission oil down the piece on my cut line. Then, after cutting the aluminum, I could make a precision cut on a piece of wood with no ill effects on the same carbide blade. The oil keeps the aluminum from adhering to the cutting edge.

Round tools work just as well as square in a V block. You have more angle adjustment with round. Heck, if you had any Easywood tools, you would be ahead by a mile or two....... Jerry (in Tucson)

Reactions: Like 1


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## DLJeffs (Dec 21, 2020)

woodtickgreg said:


> Some people don't consider me a turner because I ventured to the dark side and use carbide insert tools almost exclusively, so I have a lot of experience with them. I make my own tools and also do some metal work and machining with a lathe and mill. The tool holder I am recommending you make will solve most of your problems and will be easy to make. I see you are using square hss tool bits, all you need is a piece of square cold roll steel the same size. Get a round carbide cutter from any wood working store or online, drill a hole and tap it for the screw and mount the cutter to the top of the cold roll bar. Adjust your tool holder so that the cutter is in the center of the work or very slightly below. Crank up the speed and have at it. Try some scrap wood until you figure out depth of cut and lathe speed etc, carbide wood working cutters live high speed! You will be amazed at the difference one of these cutters makes.


I think I see what you and Jerry are saying. Just one of these little round discs, screwed into the end of a steel block so the edge of the cutter extends beyond the steel block. Right? Or would I need a handle that is made to hold these discs and then screw that handle to the steel block?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gdurfey (Dec 21, 2020)

Just in the end of the block with it extending. Search EWT and just look at their tool and you will go “ah ha”.


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## woodtickgreg (Dec 21, 2020)

Just to the end of the block. You can make a carbide insert cutter for wood that you can clamp in your tool holder on the metal lathe. You won't need a handle.


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## woodtickgreg (Dec 21, 2020)

Jeff here is a link to some tools I make. You don't have to get as fancy as I do as you won't be putting a handle.on it and using it in the traditional way. All you need to do is mount the cutter on top, wouldn't hurt to grind the end of the square bar round to match the cutter though.




__





**ENDED**3/8" Round Carbide Insert Finishers


I have some 3/8" round finishing tools for sale. They will work well for full size or mini lathes. Price will be kept the same as the rest of my 3/8" tools. $60.00 with the carbide insert installed and shipped. Cutters alone for these are around $15 bucks. I give them my usual attention to...



woodbarter.com

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## Gdurfey (Dec 21, 2020)

Okay, I’m going to say what others have been thinking. First Doug, I like the way you have innovated!! You are good. But, what about buying a wood lathe and the millions of dollars in all the stuff to make wood turning happen? 

just thought I would throw it out there! I’m here for you brother. I can enable with the best of them!!


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## DLJeffs (Dec 22, 2020)

woodtickgreg said:


> Jeff here is a link to some tools I make. You don't have to get as fancy as I do as you won't be putting a handle.on it and using it in the traditional way. All you need to do is mount the cutter on top, wouldn't hurt to grind the end of the square bar round to match the cutter though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see what you're describing. According to the thread you linked to, it appeared you had one of those left. Couldn't I cut that off about 3 inches long and it would clamp in my tool rest, under the 3 hex bolts? If you still have one, maybe I'll just buy your last tool you made and cut it off.


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## DLJeffs (Dec 22, 2020)

Gdurfey said:


> Okay, I’m going to say what others have been thinking. First Doug, I like the way you have innovated!! You are good. But, what about buying a wood lathe and the millions of dollars in all the stuff to make wood turning happen?
> 
> just thought I would throw it out there! I’m here for you brother. I can enable with the best of them!!


You're not helpful, you know. I've looked at buying a used little wood lathe but I don't have the room plus I'd still have to stick the spacer back in the metal lathe to turn the final diameter where the threaded barrel goes. I suppose it can be done on a regular wood lathe with hand held tools, but you'd better have a pretty steady hand.

Reactions: +Karma 1


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## woodtickgreg (Dec 22, 2020)

DLJeffs said:


> I see what you're describing. According to the thread you linked to, it appeared you had one of those left. Couldn't I cut that off about 3 inches long and it would clamp in my tool rest, under the 3 hex bolts? If you still have one, maybe I'll just buy your last tool you made and cut it off.


I'm sold out, nothing ready to go at this time. It's been awhile since I made and sold tools, work gets in the way.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## DLJeffs (Dec 22, 2020)

woodtickgreg said:


> I'm sold out, nothing ready to go at this time. It's been awhile since I made and sold tools, work gets in the way.


No worries, thanks for all your advice and guidance. I turned some reel seat inserts this afternoon and spent some time sharpening my tool bits. I think it helped. I'm able to accomplish what I set out to do so it's not a big deal. I take off about 0.02" per pass and didn't have any chipping or anything. Maybe I'll see if I can find a piece of steel and make a small tool holder like you mentioned, and maybe a V block so i could tilt it as a 45 degree angle and see if it works smoother.

Reactions: Like 1


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## aag562 (Mar 3, 2021)

trc65 said:


> A negative rake scraper is one that has a bottom and top bevel ground in it. Not used for fast cutting, but rather for finishing cuts to get rid of tool marks and other imperfections prior to sanding. Not the tool if you are looking for a faster cut. Here's a link that describes the negative rake more in depth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





woodtickgreg said:


> Jeff here is a link to some tools I make. You don't have to get as fancy as I do as you won't be putting a handle.on it and using it in the traditional way. All you need to do is mount the cutter on top, wouldn't hurt to grind the end of the square bar round to match the cutter though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm a carbide guy and your tools look amazing its to bad that okay buddy full set I bought them from Harrison's specialty tools the simple line I really enjoy using them but the carbide blades I'm not a fan of thank you for the info where do I pick those up?


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## Crocy in Aus. (Mar 3, 2021)

Not sure if you want to buy more tools, but here is one of the toolholders I use on my metal lathe. It gives a far better finish than TC and some people use a round HSS bar instead of the square piece shown. They just grind it at 45° and rotate it in the holder.
Hope this gives you some more options.


The Diamond Tool Holder


Rgds,
Crocy.


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## DLJeffs (Mar 4, 2021)

G'day Crocy. Thanks for taking the time to post. I'm struggling trying to see how this would mount on my tool holder. Do you have a photo of this mounted on your metal lathe?


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## Crocy in Aus. (Mar 4, 2021)

Doug, here are a few photos of it on my 7.5inch swing metal lathe.











Sorry, I am having trouble with adding commentary between the photos.
1st photo is the tool bit being ground in the supplied holder.
2nd photo is the standard TC tipped tool on the metal lathe.
3rd is the view of the Diamond tool holder.
4th is the end view of the tool showing the relief angle ground by the grinding jig.
Last photo is a piece of Queensland Maple, bit like your white Maple with the bit on the left of the pencil mark done with the TC tipped tool. The next bit as done by the Diamond tool holder and you can see it is smooth compared with the tear out on the LHS.
As I said earlier some guys buy round HSS and just grind it at 45 deg and put it in this holder.
Hope this helps,
rgds,
Crocy


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## DLJeffs (Mar 7, 2021)

Thanks so much for taking the time to do this Richard. I see now how it mounts in the tool holder. One more question, which face is doing the actual shaving of the wood piece? Here's a photo to help my question. Which face A or B is doing the actual cutting? Or are both edges cutting wood?


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## T. Ben (Mar 7, 2021)

It should be the point doing the cutting.


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## Crocy in Aus. (Mar 7, 2021)

DLJeffs said:


> Thanks so much for taking the time to do this Richard. I see now how it mounts in the tool holder. One more question, which face is doing the actual shaving of the wood piece? Here's a photo to help my question. Which face A or B is doing the actual cutting? Or are both edges cutting wood?
> View attachment 204731


 Hi Doug, sorry my photos are not the best, but after grinding the cutting edges of A and B are very sharp. It's the point between A and B in your mark-up. I adjust the toolpost so there is a minute amount of clearance on the trailing edge of B, so the face of it also shear scrapes as it moves along. It doesn't produce a finish as good as a Skew Chisel on a wood lathe, but it's close.
I use this tool for precision turning of industrial plastics, stainless steel and Aluminium. OK, autocorrect won't let me spell it as you do in your country.
If you do a lot of this kind of work it may be worth the money or you could silver solder a piece of square HSS to a bar to replicate the angles and grind it like in the photos and give it a go.
Hope this helps,
Rgds,
Crocy.


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