# White Oak Question



## Graybeard (Nov 10, 2015)

Recently I made my granddaughter a Harry Potter wand and used white oak for part of it. I found the wood quick to tear out and had to use really clean slicing cuts to get a nice finish. If I was better I would/should have used a skew.

I'm taking some white oak to our wood turning club tonight and giving it to the fellow that teaches pen turning. I'm wondering if that is a smart choice of wood for beginners? They'll have some trouble if they use carbide and scrape I think.

How would you describe the wood like that - open grained or something else?

Thanks


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## phinds (Nov 10, 2015)

Although the pores in white oak have tylosis it is has large pores and not one that I would choose for pens (or a wand). Your problems w/ it are not surprising.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## davduckman2010 (Nov 10, 2015)

Graybeard said:


> Recently I made my granddaughter a Harry Potter wand and used white oak for part of it. I found the wood quick to tear out and had to use really clean slicing cuts to get a nice finish. If I was better I would/should have used a skew.
> 
> I'm taking some white oak to our wood turning club tonight and giving it to the fellow that teaches pen turning. I'm wondering if that is a smart choice of wood for beginners? They'll have some trouble if they use carbide and scrape I think.
> 
> ...


makes nice table slabs though david heres some spalted white oak slabs 8/4 book matched I just cleaned up --duck

Reactions: Like 4 | Way Cool 1


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## Graybeard (Nov 10, 2015)

Darn that's purdy. I really love white oak myself and I can't explain why. We have three large white oaks ready to come down. I may just have them quarter sawn if I can talk my mill guy into doing it.


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## Schroedc (Nov 10, 2015)

I don't like to turn it but do like it for flat work. It does tear out and get kinda stringy. A good, sharp skew will eliminate a lot of that.


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## robert flynt (Nov 10, 2015)

Try live oak. It should turn a lot better, especially the interior wood.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Woodman (Nov 12, 2015)

For several years I've been selling 3.5x3.5x9" blocks of 20 year air dried white oak with these very prominent rays to a guy
who makes endgrain cutting boards and another who turns vases. They love the wood but the turner says a new turner should avoid it
or turn green wood. I sprayed some oil on this one for the photo.
http://i594.Rule #2/albums/tt28/lakeridge3/100_16861_zpspzmgqgr4.jpg?t=1447267070

Reactions: Like 3


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## phinds (Dec 8, 2015)

robert flynt said:


> Try live oak. It should turn a lot better, especially the interior wood.


Right. The various live oaks, whether red or white, are semi ring porous and have smaller pores than the deciduous oaks which are all ring porous (again, whether red or white)

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Informative 1


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## Kevin (Dec 8, 2015)

phinds said:


> The various live oaks, whether red or white



I learned something new again. I didn't know there were any red oaks that are evergreens. I know there are many evergreen white oaks, but when I think of live oak I always think of _quercus virginiana_ (southern live oak) but I guess there are evergreen red oak species too or you wouldn't have said that. I had no idea.


Tree species can be very involved but it seems live oak species are a matrix.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## phinds (Dec 8, 2015)

Kevin said:


> I learned something new again. I didn't know there were any red oaks that are evergreens. I know there are many evergreen white oaks, but when I think of live oak I always think of _quercus virginiana_ (southern live oak) but I guess there are evergreen red oak species too or you wouldn't have said that. I had no idea.
> 
> 
> Tree species can be very involved but it seems live oak species are a matrix.


Right. Most people have exactly the same knowledge you have and I had a HELL of a time getting it straightened out. It's very simple, really, but the problem is that when I said "most people" in the previous sentence, I should have said "just about EVERYBODY". Early on in the development of my site I asked lots of people who seemed to know a fair amount about wood on the internet whether the live oaks were part of the red oak group or the white oak group and* not a single one *of them had any idea. For years it was an open question on my site. Turns out when you find a good source, like Hoadley, it's all very clear but it's hard info to track down (or at least it sure was 15 years ago).

If you look on my live oak page, I comment on each species as to which group it's in.


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## Kevin (Dec 8, 2015)

I have had Hoadley's book since I first started this rodeo in 2004 - i guess I should sit down with it again it's been a while.


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## robert flynt (Dec 8, 2015)

Kevin said:


> I learned something new again. I didn't know there were any red oaks that are evergreens. I know there are many evergreen white oaks, but when I think of live oak I always think of _quercus virginiana_ (southern live oak) but I guess there are evergreen red oak species too or you wouldn't have said that. I had no idea.
> 
> 
> Tree species can be very involved but it seems live oak species are a matrix.


Me too Kevin, I also didn't know there was a live oak with wood the color of the red oak. My Laurel Oak keep its leaves until spring but it, like the live oak, has white wood.


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## Kevin (Dec 8, 2015)

Paul I started to research this but it is a quagmire. Could you please furnish a list of the red oak group species that are evergreens? I checked your site but couldn't find one and there isn't one anywhere else that I can find. I'm not being lazy I did search but it is more confusing to me now than before. If the red oak group has species that are evergreens, there should be a list right? 

But even if there is, I won't consider them the same "animal" because red oaks are a terrible species for durability (especially compared to white oaks) and when the term live oak is used, it is synonymous with durability. I don't care if it doesn't drop its leaves in the fall unless it is durable it's not what we think of as a live oak. No shipwright worth his salt will ask for live oak and receive a wagon load of red oak without shooting the sawyer in the head with his musket, no matter if the leaves were still on the tree in winter or not. 

I realize this is not a dendrologically correct argument, but nevertheless . . .


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## robert flynt (Dec 8, 2015)

I just saw laurel and water oak was referred to the red oak section, on Paul's site, but the wood is white in our species.


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## Kevin (Dec 8, 2015)

Water oak is in the red oak group, but it is not a live oak (the leaves fall off in late fall) except in very warm climes.


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## phinds (Dec 8, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Paul I started to research this but it is a quagmire. Could you please furnish a list of the red oak group species that are evergreens? I checked your site but couldn't find one and there isn't one anywhere else that I can find. I'm not being lazy I did search but it is more confusing to me now than before. If the red oak group has species that are evergreens, there should be a list right?
> 
> But even if there is, I won't consider them the same "animal" because red oaks are a terrible species for durability (especially compared to white oaks) and when the term live oak is used, it is synonymous with durability. I don't care if it doesn't drop its leaves in the fall unless it is durable it's not what we think of as a live oak. No shipwright worth his salt will ask for live oak and receive a wagon load of red oak without shooting the sawyer in the head with his musket, no matter if the leaves were still on the tree in winter or not.
> 
> I realize this is not a dendrologically correct argument, but nevertheless . . .


Only ones I can put my finger on are the few that I have samples of:

cork oak (Quercus suber)
canyon live oak / Quercus chrysolepis (MAYBE red)
ubamegashi / Quercus phillyraeoides
Arizona black oak (Quercus emoryi)

I thought I had a more extensive list but can't find it at the moment. Don't think I ever had more than 6 or 8 though.


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## robert flynt (Dec 8, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Water oak is in the red oak group, but it is not a live oak (the leaves fall off in late fall) except in very warm climes.


I agree, mine are almost through losing their leaves. To us the white oaks is the variety with very pale gray bark the rest are called by their name such as water oak, etc.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## robert flynt (Dec 8, 2015)

phinds said:


> Only ones I can put my finger on are the few that I have samples of:
> 
> cork oak (Quercus suber)
> canyon live oak / Quercus chrysolepis (MAYBE red)
> ...


Our live oaks have an extremely dense grain and generally is twisted. People who sell fire wood here don't like to fool with any of it that has to be split because it is hard on their equipment and you can't hand split it. An ax will bounce when you try to split it.


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## phinds (Dec 8, 2015)

Kevin said:


> If the red oak group has species that are evergreens, there should be a list right?


Well, I've always thought so, but I've never found one.


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## Nature Man (Dec 8, 2015)

Live Oaks here in Northern California are evergreen. They lose leaves throughout the year, but never lose them all at once. Not sure where they fit in the big picture of oaks. Chuck


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## phinds (Dec 8, 2015)

Nature Man said:


> Live Oaks here in Northern California are evergreen. They lose leaves throughout the year, but never lose them all at once. Not sure where they fit in the big picture of oaks. Chuck


ALL live oaks are supposed to be evergreen. That's what the "live" means.


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## phinds (Dec 8, 2015)

@Graybeard, I see we really hijacked your thread. Sorry.


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## Sidecar (Dec 9, 2015)

This is good stuff here guys.....!


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## Graybeard (Dec 9, 2015)

Not a problem, my wife says I change subjects in the middle of a sentence so I'm used to it.


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## robert flynt (Dec 9, 2015)

Our live oaks shed their leaves in the spring then the new leaves and flower tassel come out about the same time. Real rough on people,like me, with allergies.


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## Kevin (Dec 9, 2015)

robert flynt said:


> Our live oaks shed their leaves in the spring then the new leaves and flower tassel come out about the same time. Real rough on people,like me, with allergies.



Robert I am pretty sure any tree that drops its leaves is not a live oak. Live oaks are evergreens meaning they do not lose their leaves. I stand to be corrected.


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## Mr. Peet (Dec 9, 2015)

This has been great reading. Under the "Magnoliophta", flowering plants, Fagaceae, family, Quercus, genus, sub species Leucobalanus is the "white oak" group, and sub species Erythbalanus is the "red oak" group. The red oaks are endemic to North America. Laurel oak, Quercus laurifolia (Q. hemisphaerica) is a semi-evergreen in the white oak family. Both Laurel oak and Live oak can have vastly varying leaf on patterns, from year round to intermittent based on the genetic diversity of the tree as well as growing location.

Yes Paul, there are several evergreen "Red oaks" native to Mexico. None are shipped here commercially so you will not find Americanized names for it. The red oak family is more modern evolutionarily too, and therefore definitive species are still in contention and being argued out amongst biologists, since the species can and do readily hybridize in Mexico. Even in the northeastern USA there are issues with Black, Red and Scarlet hybridizing and some of the same for White oak and Chestnut oak. Then Chestnut oak does likewise with several other similar species, such as Chinquapin oak, Swamp chestnut oak, Cow basket oak and so on.

White oaks usually yield acorns every year while red oak take two years to produce nuts. White oaks have far higher rates of tylosis in the pores than does red oak. Yes there are some evergreen red oaks in central and southern Mexico. No I do not have a list of them. Some day I plan to attain a sample of each of the 500-600 species of oaks. No, just dreaming....Hope this helps some...

Reactions: Informative 2


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## robert flynt (Dec 9, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Robert I am pretty sure any tree that drops its leaves is not a live oak. Live oaks are evergreens meaning they do not lose their leaves. I stand to be corrected.



A lot of these trees, like the friendship oak, are on the registered list and every spring they look pretty bare for a very short period of time. Then they take on a charteuse look as the new leaves and flower tassels sprout. Some have not completely shed when new growth starts but for sure, every single leaf fall in the spring. I will send you a picture of the one in my yard and some along the beach. Ask around if you know any horticulture folks in this area. There is a man who is a member of the live oak society that travels the coast measuring live oak trees and registering them. He for sure can verify what I say. These trees are not like the other oaks that shed in the fall and stay bare all winter but they do shed in the spring.


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## robert flynt (Dec 9, 2015)

Mr. Peet said:


> This has been great reading. Under the "Magnoliophta", flowering plants, Fagaceae, family, Quercus, genus, sub species Leucobalanus is the "white oak" group, and sub species Erythbalanus is the "red oak" group. The red oaks are endemic to North America. Laurel oak, Quercus laurifolia (Q. hemisphaerica) is a semi-evergreen in the white oak family. Both Laurel oak and Live oak can have vastly varying leaf on patterns, from year round to intermittent based on the genetic diversity of the tree as well as growing location.
> 
> Yes Paul, there are several evergreen "Red oaks" native to Mexico. None are shipped here commercially so you will not find Americanized names for it. The red oak family is more modern evolutionarily too, and therefore definitive species are still in contention and being argued out amongst biologists, since the species can and do readily hybridize in Mexico. Even in the northeastern USA there are issues with Black, Red and Scarlet hybridizing and some of the same for White oak and Chestnut oak. Then Chestnut oak does likewise with several other similar species, such as Chinquapin oak, Swamp chestnut oak, Cow basket oak and so on.
> 
> White oaks usually yield acorns every year while red oak take two years to produce nuts. White oaks have far higher rates of tylosis in the pores than does red oak. Yes there are some evergreen red oaks in central and southern Mexico. No I do not have a list of them. Some day I plan to attain a sample of each of the 500-600 species of oaks. No, just dreaming....Hope this helps some...


Thank Mark, I Feel some what vendicated. Do you think those red oaks in Mexico would shed if transplanted to a climate that had a winter?


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## robert flynt (Dec 9, 2015)

I always thought they were called live oaks because they stayed green all winter and were without leaves just long enough after shedding for new ones to sprout. Didn't know it was any other way.


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## phinds (Dec 9, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Robert I am pretty sure any tree that drops its leaves is not a live oak. Live oaks are evergreens meaning they do not lose their leaves. I stand to be corrected.


I agree w/ you completely.


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## phinds (Dec 9, 2015)

robert flynt said:


> A lot of these trees, like the friendship oak, are on the registered list and every spring they look pretty bare for a very short period of time. Then they take on a charteuse look as the new leaves and flower tassels sprout. Some have not completely shed when new growth starts but for sure, every single leaf fall in the spring. I will send you a picture of the one in my yard and some along the beach. Ask around if you know any horticulture folks in this area. There is a man who is a member of the live oak society that travels the coast measuring live oak trees and registering them. He for sure can verify what I say. These trees are not like the other oaks that shed in the fall and stay bare all winter but they do shed in the spring.


That's interesting. Never heard that before but sure sounds like you know what you're talking about. Good info. Thanks.


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## Mr. Peet (Dec 10, 2015)

Robert, the term "live" was an indicator when looking for these trees for ship building. Winter was the time to look because many had leaves and were easier to find. "Live" also carried several other reasons for the term in regards to the strength, flexibility and floatility of the wood in ship building. You want to live, then you wanted "live oak" as part of your ship. Of coarse as you went south into Mexico, the term no longer held ground well, and therefore the English focused on the American coastline for supplies. There are other reasons too....


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## Kevin (Dec 10, 2015)

This book - Live Oaking: Southern Timber for Tall Ships - is a fascinating read - probably more information about the history of harvesting the tree than any other source. It is not focused on dendrology so much but rather the history of the SLO from a shipwrights perspective. I haven't finishied it yet I am about halfway through. It's one of my bathroom books. :-)

The advertisements and letters are fascinating. The work was about as hard as it got back then. I have put the book down feeling exhausted at times just from reading the firsthand accounts!


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## robert flynt (Dec 10, 2015)

I am not a shipwright but I know they were used for the keel. Because the live oak is shallow rooted, they ship wrights here would dig out around the root system and cut all the root close to the trunk except for one. The one root left they would dig up and cut that root as far out as they needed and fell the tree. By doing this they could hew it into one solid unit from bow to stern. Very labor intensive and strong, even the root on this tree are tough. You should check out the Biloxi Schooners, a shallow draft boat used in these waters before diesel engines. They were the work horses of the coast back in the day.


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## Kevin (Dec 10, 2015)

robert flynt said:


> I am not a shipwright but I know they were used for the keel. Because the live oak is shallow rooted, they ship wrights here would dig out around the root system and cut all the root close to the trunk except for one. The one root left they would dig up and cut that root as far out as they needed and fell the tree. By doing this they could hew it into one solid unit from bow to stern. Very labor intensive and strong, even the root on this tree are tough.



You would love this book. It will open your eyes more than you can imagine. One of the things they also sought were the "knees" - the natural bends in a large branch that were used in the ship as braces.


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## robert flynt (Dec 10, 2015)

The Biloxi schooners were used to get the timber out to ship island, which is as far as the tall ships could get because of their draft. Read my edit about the Biloxi schooner.


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