# Boxelder - How to know if a tree is flamin'



## BangleGuy

So I have a friend who says he has a 50+ year old Box Elder tree that is huge and 'full of bugs'. He is referring to the box elder bugs that are red and black and crawl on the tree. He is talking about having it cut down because it makes a mess in his yard. The big question is; how do you know if the tree is flaming inside? Are box elder bugs the same grubs that burrow around in the tree? Does geographic location influence the level of flame or color? Would cutting off a large branch give us an indication of the level of flame?

If there is a chance that this tree is a flamer, then I am going to search for a local wood mill  

Thanks :hatsoff:


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## Mike1950

Black smoke coming out of the top of the tree. :rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3:

Sorry I could not resist. Foresters use a screw that takes a core out of the tree that way you can kinda look inside the package without cutting down. Kevin probably has a better idea...........


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## Kevin

Just tap the base of the tree with your bar about 4" above ground level. You'll only have to go in about an inch or less. You get red chips you got a flamer. The boring bit can work but it if the flames are not dense you could get all white chips and think it's not flamed when in fact it could be. Best way is to cut it down of course. If it's getting attacked by bugs it's likely flamed.


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## BangleGuy

Kevin said:


> Just tap the base of the tree with your bar about 4" above ground level. You'll only have to go in about an inch or less. You get red chips you got a flamer. The boring bit can work but it if the flames are not dense you could get all white chips and think it's not flamed when in fact it could be. Best way is to cut it down of course. If it's getting attacked by bugs it's likely flamed.



Thanks Kevin!


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## hardtwist

I have to wonder if the "flaming" Box Elder isn't a subspecies or something? I've cut hundreds if not thousands of 
Box Elder trees in the northern Utah area where I grew up and raised my family, and have never seen or heard of flame box elder till I joined this forum.
In fact, box elder is so proficient there that the county I lived in is named Box Elder County. The bugs do not attack the tree, but rather live on the sap that drips from the leaves.
Since then, I've seen it for myself in the form of a neighbors firewood pile here in Tenn. However, even that was different than Kevin's wood as the red was in a core about 4 inches wide down the center of the log with 6 to 8 inches of white wood surrounding it. 
If not a subspecies, then perhaps it is an altitude thing? Not trying to jerk anyone's chain here, but wanted to add my observations to the dialog here.
The pic is of a 12" dia platter i'm currently working on. You can see from the relative position of the Red wood to the live edge, that you would have to cut nearly half way through this one before getting any red chips.


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## hobbit-hut

Mike1950 said:


> Black smoke coming out of the top of the tree. :rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3:
> 
> Sorry I could not resist. Foresters use a screw that takes a core out of the tree that way you can kinda look inside the package without cutting down. Kevin probably has a better idea...........



I was thinking you can usually tell by the way they walk. :bye2:


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## BangleGuy

hardtwist said:


> I have to wonder if the "flaming" Box Elder isn't a subspecies or something? I've cut hundreds if not thousands of
> Box Elder trees in the northern Utah area where I grew up and raised my family, and have never seen or heard of flame box elder till I joined this forum.
> In fact, box elder is so proficient there that the county I lived in is named Box Elder County. The bugs do not attack the tree, but rather live on the sap that drips from the leaves.
> Since then, I've seen it for myself in the form of a neighbors firewood pile here in Tenn. However, even that was different than Kevin's wood as the red was in a core about 4 inches wide down the center of the log with 6 to 8 inches of white wood surrounding it.
> If not a subspecies, then perhaps it is an altitude thing? Not trying to jerk anyone's chain here, but wanted to add my observations to the dialog here.
> The pic is of a 12" dia platter i'm currently working on. You can see from the relative position of the Red wood to the live edge, that you would have to cut nearly half way through this one before getting any red chips.



Box Elder County is only about 6-7 hour drive from this tree, so I'd guess they would be pretty similar.  When spring comes, I will find out :irishjig:


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## Jdaschel

It is probably the climate. And bugs dont live in your area. 
Arent ambrosia maple and flame box elder similar? just green streaks instead of red?


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## BangleGuy

I read that Box Elder bugs aren't the borer's, but it is an Ash Twig Borer... So maybe it depends if the twig borers are active in the area...


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## woodtickgreg

Even if it's not flamed it's not a bad wood to work with, turns nice. I think B E has to be stressed in some way to get the red streaks, usually from insects, but storm and wind damage can also stress them, throw in a little fungus and voila, magic.


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## Kevin

BangleGuy said:


> Box Elder County is only about 6-7 hour drive from this tree, so I'd guess they would be pretty similar.



Not necessarily. 

Any borer can attack the tree not just the BE bug. My patch is attacked by both the BEB and the Ambrosia Beetle. Both borers cause the same result. Flames. No holes, no flames. At last that's how it works here. My guess is that hardtwists trees are not being attacked for whatever reason. I would also bet there's boxelder trees that *are* flamed but he has just not run across them. If the trees grow in a flood plain or marsh then they are more likely to be attacked IMO. I stress that this is JMO.

I agree with Greg about it being beautiful wood even without flames. The white is often curly and even where it isn't it has a chatoyance unlike most other plain wood. At least it does down here. I realize the same species can be different in different regions. 

It is not a sub species it is _acer negundo_. Just as _acer saccharum_ species can have all manner of characteristics or not, so can boxelder - called red river maple around here.


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## davduckman2010

i have to agree with kevin i slice a small wedge at the bottom and youll see the brown and white of the ambrosia inches in . all my maple trees are in a flood plain most of the year dry in the summer and under a lot of stress. the basees grow like cypress trees trying to get out of the water and they all have the bettle pepper holes in the trunk . its a dead give away. duck


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## BassBlaster

So, a box elder bug is a boror? This past fall, the front of the house was covered in box elder bugs. I didnt know what the little buggers was so started doing a little research. I guess its common for them to congregate like that on warm structures when it starts to turn cold. It said they will always stay close to thier "host plant". I dunno if I have any box elders here or not but have several silver maples so I assumed those were the "host". Anyhow, based on what I read, it looked like the box elder bugs only eat the seeds of maple species. I didnt find anything about them boring or actually eatng any of the woody portion of the tree. Now, I'm most definately not going to argue with the box elder king because I really didnt do all that much research and besides no amount of reading will ever top first hand experience. I'm just looking for clarification because now I'm thinking I have some infested trees around here that might need to be cut down!!


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## Kevin

If you have that amount (or any amount) of borers then you have a host tree somewhere. They cannot survive unless they make holes in something. Their life cycles revolve around that. The little boogers have it made actually. All they do is eat, sleep, and reproduce. And it all revolves around the sugar in the cellulose so the sweeter the tree the the better. In fact boxelder bugs refer to maples as a "VGOE". The little critters have such high pitched voices you can barely understand them but it's short for _Vertical Garden Of Eden_. They give everything an acronym. Witty little suckers aren't they? The pronounce it _"Vee-Go!!!."_ They see a boxelder tree and in unison they say _"Avayyyy vee gooooo!"_ They cannot pronounce certain consonants and "w" is one of them. They are Asian in origin after all but mainly it's because their mandables get in the way of clear pronunciation. But you haven't lived until you've heard a chorus of one million boxelder bugs spy a boxelder tree at the same instant in time. Music to my ears. 

They will attack other trees & shrubs too but they are mostly associated where boxelder trees are. They won't eat your home but they can give some people the creeps when they are so numerous. They don't like cinnamon. If you can dust or coat your walls with a cinnamon they will vamoose. If you want to kill them spray them with a neem based pesticide. Neem is a tree indiginous to India but it has been used effectively as a "green" pesticide in numerous applications. Boxelder bugs hate it. I've never used it (obviously the BEB is my friend) but remember reading about it during my ongoing research of boxelder. 

Keep us updated if you will - I keep myself in a continuing education program when it comes to all things boxelder.


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## BassBlaster

Kevin said:


> If you have that amount (or any amount) of borers then you have a host tree somewhere. They cannot survive unless they make holes in something. Their life cycles revolve around that. The little boogers have it made actually. All they do is eat, sleep, and reproduce. And it all revolves around the sugar in the cellulose so the sweeter the tree the the better. In fact boxelder bugs refer to maples as a "VGOE". The little critters have such high pitched voices you can barely understand them but it's short for _Vertical Garden Of Eden_. They give everything an acronym. Witty little suckers aren't they? The pronounce it _"Vee-Go!!!."_ They see a boxelder tree and in unison they say _"Avayyyy vee gooooo!"_ They cannot pronounce certain consonants and "w" is one of them. They are Asian in origin after all but mainly it's because their mandables get in the way of clear pronunciation. But you haven't lived until you've heard a chorus of one million boxelder bugs spy a boxelder tree at the same instant in time. Music to my ears.
> 
> They will attack other trees & shrubs too but they are mostly associated where boxelder trees are. They won't eat your home but they can give some people the creeps when they are so numerous. They don't like cinnamon. If you can dust or coat your walls with a cinnamon they will vamoose. If you want to kill them spray them with a neem based pesticide. Neem is a tree indiginous to India but it has been used effectively as a "green" pesticide in numerous applications. Boxelder bugs hate it. I've never used it (obviously the BEB is my friend) but remember reading about it during my ongoing research of boxelder.
> 
> Keep us updated if you will - I keep myself in a continuing education program when it comes to all things boxelder.



:rofl2:

So, do you know what affect they have on the wood of a silver maple? Would it have an ambrosia look to it? Do you know how long it takes the tree to get the flames once they are infected? We have 5 silver maples in the yard and at least 3 of them could come down. We took one down last year that was infested with ants. It was too far gone to salvage any wood though. We also have a wood lot behind the house thats maybe 5 acres. I dont think there are any box elders in there but there could be. I guess I'll have to investigate this spring and see if i can find any trees with bugs on it.


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## Kevin

BassBlaster said:


> So, do you know what affect they have on the wood of a silver maple?



Nope. My guess would be they turn into ambrosia maples. Most wood sites say that AM happens once the trees are attacked by the ambrosia beetle, but I'd wager any borer attack will result in the same thing. . 




BassBlaster said:


> Do you know how long it takes the tree to get the flames once they are infected?



It only takes days or weeks IMO but certainly no longer than one season, because even the smallest saplings in my patch are all flamed. As I've mentioned before, I've never harvested a single boxelder of any size in my patch that wasn't flamed to some degree.


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## hardtwist

Cut and pasted from Wickapedia:

Subspecies


A. negundo leaves and seeds
Acer negundo is often discussed as comprising three subspecies, each of which was originally described as a separate species. These are:
A. negundo subsp. negundo is the main variety and the type to which characteristics described in the article most universally apply. Its natural range is from the Atlantic Coast to the Rocky Mountains.[4]
A. negundo subsp. interius has more leaf serration than the main species and a more matte leaf surface. As the name interus indicates, its natural range of Saskatchewan to New Mexico is sandwiched between that of the other two subspecies.[4]
A. negundo subsp. californicum has larger leaves than the main species. Leaves also have a velvety texture which is essential to distinguish it from A. negundo subsp. negundo. It is found in parts of California and Arizona.[4]
Some authors further subdivide subsp. negundo into a number of regional varieties but these intergrade and their maintenance as distinct taxa is disputed by many. Even the differences between recognized subspecies are probably a matter of gradient speciation
Finally, note that a few botanists treat Boxelder Maple as its own distinct genus (Negundo aceroides) but this is not widely accepted.


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## Kevin

hardtwist said:


> Cut and pasted from Wickapedia:
> 
> Subspecies
> 
> 
> A. negundo leaves and seeds
> Acer negundo is often discussed as comprising three subspecies, each of which was originally described as a separate species. These are:
> A. negundo subsp. negundo is the main variety and the type to which characteristics described in the article most universally apply. Its natural range is from the Atlantic Coast to the Rocky Mountains.[4]
> A. negundo subsp. interius has more leaf serration than the main species and a more matte leaf surface. As the name interus indicates, its natural range of Saskatchewan to New Mexico is sandwiched between that of the other two subspecies.[4]
> A. negundo subsp. californicum has larger leaves than the main species. Leaves also have a velvety texture which is essential to distinguish it from A. negundo subsp. negundo. It is found in parts of California and Arizona.[4]
> Some authors further subdivide subsp. negundo into a number of regional varieties but these intergrade and their maintenance as distinct taxa is disputed by many. Even the differences between recognized subspecies are probably a matter of gradient speciation
> Finally, note that a few botanists treat Boxelder Maple as its own distinct genus (Negundo aceroides) but this is not widely accepted.



Mike,

No offense but I never take anything from wikipedia seriously and neither should you. I think your spelling is better though "*wicka*pedia" because a lot of what is written in it is witchcraft at best. It's a sometimes interesting and always quick reference for opinions but it's rife with misinformation. After all it is written by people who volunteer to share their opinions. No credentials necessary. 

The small part of your excerpt from the wikiopinion entry on acer negundo has no relevance to flamed boxelder nor does it pretend to at least that I can tell. So I am missing the point there. You initially said you thought FBE was a separate species perhaps but this portion of the wiki article you quote does not make any reference to it. What am I missing? 

:i_dunno:


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## woodtickgreg

Kevin said:


> hardtwist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cut and pasted from Wickapedia:
> 
> Subspecies
> 
> 
> A. negundo leaves and seeds
> Acer negundo is often discussed as comprising three subspecies, each of which was originally described as a separate species. These are:
> A. negundo subsp. negundo is the main variety and the type to which characteristics described in the article most universally apply. Its natural range is from the Atlantic Coast to the Rocky Mountains.[4]
> A. negundo subsp. interius has more leaf serration than the main species and a more matte leaf surface. As the name interus indicates, its natural range of Saskatchewan to New Mexico is sandwiched between that of the other two subspecies.[4]
> A. negundo subsp. californicum has larger leaves than the main species. Leaves also have a velvety texture which is essential to distinguish it from A. negundo subsp. negundo. It is found in parts of California and Arizona.[4]
> Some authors further subdivide subsp. negundo into a number of regional varieties but these intergrade and their maintenance as distinct taxa is disputed by many. Even the differences between recognized subspecies are probably a matter of gradient speciation
> Finally, note that a few botanists treat Boxelder Maple as its own distinct genus (Negundo aceroides) but this is not widely accepted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mike,
> 
> No offense but I never take anything from wikipedia seriously and neither should you. I think your spelling is better though "*wicka*pedia" because a lot of what is written in it is witchcraft at best. It's a sometimes interesting and always quick reference for opinions but it's rife with misinformation. After all it is written by people who volunteer to share their opinions. No credentials necessary.
> 
> The small part of your excerpt from the wikiopinion entry on acer negundo has no relevance to flamed boxelder nor does it pretend to at least that I can tell. So I am missing the point there. You initially said you thought FBE was a separate species perhaps but this portion of the wiki article you quote does not make any reference to it. What am I missing?
> 
> :i_dunno:
Click to expand...

I just call it box elder, or manitoba maple, good enough for me.


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## hardtwist

Kevin said:


> hardtwist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cut and pasted from Wickapedia:
> 
> Subspecies
> 
> 
> A. negundo leaves and seeds
> Acer negundo is often discussed as comprising three subspecies, each of which was originally described as a separate species. These are:
> A. negundo subsp. negundo is the main variety and the type to which characteristics described in the article most universally apply. Its natural range is from the Atlantic Coast to the Rocky Mountains.[4]
> A. negundo subsp. interius has more leaf serration than the main species and a more matte leaf surface. As the name interus indicates, its natural range of Saskatchewan to New Mexico is sandwiched between that of the other two subspecies.[4]
> A. negundo subsp. californicum has larger leaves than the main species. Leaves also have a velvety texture which is essential to distinguish it from A. negundo subsp. negundo. It is found in parts of California and Arizona.[4]
> Some authors further subdivide subsp. negundo into a number of regional varieties but these intergrade and their maintenance as distinct taxa is disputed by many. Even the differences between recognized subspecies are probably a matter of gradient speciation
> Finally, note that a few botanists treat Boxelder Maple as its own distinct genus (Negundo aceroides) but this is not widely accepted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mike,
> 
> No offense but I never take anything from wikipedia seriously and neither should you. I think your spelling is better though "*wicka*pedia" because a lot of what is written in it is witchcraft at best. It's a sometimes interesting and always quick reference for opinions but it's rife with misinformation. After all it is written by people who volunteer to share their opinions. No credentials necessary.
> 
> The small part of your excerpt from the wikiopinion entry on acer negundo has no relevance to flamed boxelder nor does it pretend to at least that I can tell. So I am missing the point there. You initially said you thought FBE was a separate species perhaps but this portion of the wiki article you quote does not make any reference to it. What am I missing?
> 
> :i_dunno:
Click to expand...


Kevin, I initially suggested that there may be more than one subspecies which may have some relavance as to flaming. I'm simply pointing out here that like most species of plants, there are several recognised varieties.


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## hardtwist

From USDA website: http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/taxon.pl?413144


Acer negundo (4 accessions)
Acer negundo var. texanum (no accessions)
Acer negundo subsp. californica (1 accessions)
Acer negundo subsp. interius (no accessions)
Acer negundo subsp. mexicanum (no accessions)


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## Kevin

hardtwist said:


> From USDA website: http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/taxon.pl?413144
> 
> 
> Acer negundo (4 accessions)
> Acer negundo var. texanum (no accessions)
> Acer negundo subsp. californica (1 accessions)
> Acer negundo subsp. interius (no accessions)
> Acer negundo subsp. mexicanum (no accessions)



Mike, let us reason with one another. Do you really believe that any of the above species you have copied and pasted from where ever you copied and pasted, are immune? Line them all up to attack by borers - will only one species become flamed? I'll save you years of head-banging. They will ALL become flamed under the right cicumstances.


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## hardtwist

Kevin said:


> hardtwist said:
> 
> 
> 
> From USDA website: http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/taxon.pl?413144
> 
> 
> Acer negundo (4 accessions)
> Acer negundo var. texanum (no accessions)
> Acer negundo subsp. californica (1 accessions)
> Acer negundo subsp. interius (no accessions)
> Acer negundo subsp. mexicanum (no accessions)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mike, let us reason with one another. Do you really believe that any of the above species you have copied and pasted from where ever you copied and pasted, are immune? Line them all up to attack by borers - will only one species become flamed? I'll save you years of head-banging. They will ALL become flamed under the right cicumstances.
Click to expand...


I'm not suggesting that at all Kevin, but from my research I've found that the red staining is not a direct result of the borer, but is caused by a fungus that is introduced through the cambian layer by a borer or some other injury.
Thus doesn't it stand to reason that trees from different climatic regions may be more or less prone to the introduction of the fungus. It also appears that climatic regions are the reason for the various subspecies. The climate in the western Colorado and Utah areas is very different from your climate. It is semi desert, high and hot with very low humidity.


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## Kevin

hardtwist said:


> ...but from my research I've found that the red staining is not a direct result of the borer, but is caused by a fungus that is introduced through the cambian layer by a borer or some other injury....



This is where I want you to divulge your secrets if you have them. But no one ever does. They just repeat articles I have stacked away years ago. I'm not trying to be an ass here Mike I'm looking for new info. Bring it only if you have it. But please give some scientific references. There are only three credible ones IMO. If you have a fourth I'm all ears and eyes.


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## hardtwist

http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/php/research/redstain/

This is a study done by the University of Minnesota and published 17 sept 2002. While admittadly, I don't fully understand all the sscientific terminology, form what I can gather from reading the study is that the fungus fusarium soloani was recovered from the stained wood of trees that had been injured under controled conditions and tested at regular periodic stages.

Admittedly, I don't know but am curious enough to do a little research into the staining process to try and understand better. I'm not arguing for the sake of an arguement, but I've learned long ago to do a little research for myself and not unquestioningly take someone's word on this type of thing. I'm simply trying to draw my conclusions from a combination of my own experiences,= and the research I have done. If you have better research, by all means share it with me.


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## Kevin

hardtwist said:


> http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/php/research/redstain/
> 
> This is a study done by the University of Minnesota and published 17 sept 2002. While admittadly, I don't fully understand all the sscientific terminology, form what I can gather from reading the study is that the fungus fusarium soloani was recovered from the stained wood of trees that had been injured under controled conditions and tested at regular periodic stages.
> 
> Admittedly, I don't know but am curious enough to do a little research into the staining process to try and understand better. I'm not arguing for the sake of an arguement, but I've learned long ago to do a little research for myself and not unquestioningly take someone's word on this type of thing. I'm simply trying to draw my conclusions from a combination of my own experiences,= and the research I have done. If you have better research, by all means share it with me.



Where did that come from Mike? Just take a wild guess.


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## hardtwist

Kevin said:


> hardtwist said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/php/research/redstain/
> 
> This is a study done by the University of Minnesota and published 17 sept 2002. While admittadly, I don't fully understand all the sscientific terminology, form what I can gather from reading the study is that the fungus fusarium soloani was recovered from the stained wood of trees that had been injured under controled conditions and tested at regular periodic stages.
> 
> Admittedly, I don't know but am curious enough to do a little research into the staining process to try and understand better. I'm not arguing for the sake of an arguement, but I've learned long ago to do a little research for myself and not unquestioningly take someone's word on this type of thing. I'm simply trying to draw my conclusions from a combination of my own experiences,= and the research I have done. If you have better research, by all means share it with me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where did that come from Mike? Just take a wild guess.
Click to expand...


Where did WHAT come from???


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## Kevin

hardtwist said:


> Kevin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hardtwist said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/php/research/redstain/
> 
> This is a study done by the University of Minnesota and published 17 sept 2002. While admittadly, I don't fully understand all the sscientific terminology, form what I can gather from reading the study is that the fungus fusarium soloani was recovered from the stained wood of trees that had been injured under controled conditions and tested at regular periodic stages.
> 
> Admittedly, I don't know but am curious enough to do a little research into the staining process to try and understand better. I'm not arguing for the sake of an arguement, but I've learned long ago to do a little research for myself and not unquestioningly take someone's word on this type of thing. I'm simply trying to draw my conclusions from a combination of my own experiences,= and the research I have done. If you have better research, by all means share it with me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where did that come from Mike? Just take a wild guess.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where did WHAT come from???
Click to expand...


Exactly.


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## BangleGuy

Wow, it looks like my thread is flaming! :rotflmao3: Okay okay, I will buy you both a  and we can talk about who will win the big games tomorrow :irishjig:


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## davduckman2010

i dont realy care were it all comes from as long as it comes. :rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3: duck


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## woodtickgreg

I'm liking manitoba maple even better now.  Far less confusing and scientific.


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## Kevin

Mike I don't want to beat a dead horse here, I've been pretty sick and maybe not so patient as I ought to be. That study is one that have been familiar with for years and until I started quoting it frequently it was not on Googles radar. Now it's on page one IMO because I sent so many hits to it. Maybe not but my point is I'm very familiar with it and do not believe anywhere in it do the researchers state that fbe is a separate species. If they do I stand corrected but even if they do I would suggest they are wrong. Lemme explain why.

We can both agree that the boxelder tree can grow with or without the flames correct? You said yourself your trees don't have the flames but they are boxelders. So the flames do not make the species - the borers make the flames. Even if it isn't borers but just stress of anykind, or bactieria of fungii whatever the reason, some trees do not have flames and some do. What about amobrosia maple? Some have it some don't but the species is still called _acer rubrum_ and possibly other species can also get the ambrosia character if attacked, or whatever causes it- there's no widespread agreement on that either AFA I can discover. 

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you're saying, but what I'm getting is that you believe FBE is not _acer negundo_, but some other species. Is this what you're saying? I don't feel as though we're arguing and I know Eric was kidding (I think) but a debate or discussion among people who disagree is not always an argument and I don't believe that's what we have here.

While I do not currently agree with what I perceive your position to be, I'm still open to changing my mind because I sure as heck don't know everything. IN fact I know very little about the topic and do not consider myslef to be the "Boxelder King" as some have jokingly referred to me as. I think more like a Boxelder peasant is more appropriate. I hope you'll continue the discussion because that's how we learn and I'm all for learning.


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## DKMD

I think he trying to show that there are subspecies of boxelder and then posing the question, 'Does the flaming at all depend upon the subspecies?'(ie. do some flame better than others). I could be wrong, but that's how I read it.


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## woodtickgreg

I for one am enjoying this discussion, I find it very educational and informative.


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## Kevin

Well he hasn't seen my post yet and I didn't mean to come across as combative - Mike is a good guy I doubt he took it that way.


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## woodtickgreg

Kevin said:


> Well he hasn't seen my post yet and I didn't mean to come across as combative - Mike is a good guy I doubt he took it that way.


Agreed, he's just sharing what he learned, it's all good.


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## gvwp

Here is another question. I think that we would all agree that some Maple, both hard and soft, will spalt in some environments and not others. I have done many experiments with both Maple and Sycamore to try to obtain spalting on purpose but like Boxelder its nearly impossible to tell which tree will and which tree will not contain flame or which log will spalt and which will not. I have cut thousands of Maple trees and in my experience the ambrosia Maple is found in tracts of timber and not just certain trees. This would suggest there is an area which the little bug covers and not a sub species of tree. I have very little experience with Boxelder although they do grow here and from time to time I find one with flame although I've never seen anything even close to Kevin's trees in Texas. Stunning stuff Kevin. In Boxelder it has the same appearance as the ambrosia figure so I always assumed it was due to the same bug. On the other hand I have also seen flame or red color in Boxelder from stress or even a lightning strike supporting the fact that a simple introduction of a fungus can cause the flame or red color, however, its not the same type of figure as an ambrosia stripe. I have even seen a small amount of ambrosia figure in Sycamore although never as heavy as the Red or Silver Maple or even Boxelder.


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## Kevin

Lots to discuss there David and I have opinions on all of it of course.  But my brain is worn out right now. Your observations are spot on though I will say that much. I will try to make a reply tomorrow.


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## hardtwist

DKMD said:


> I think he trying to show that there are subspecies of boxelder and then posing the question, 'Does the flaming at all depend upon the subspecies?'(ie. do some flame better than others). I could be wrong, but that's how I read it.




You got it doc, I was simply searching for answers and climate/altitude/subspecies seemed to be logical possibilities as like I said before, I've cut hundreds of BE trees in northern Utah and never ever seen red wood. The study I quoted showed that a particular fungus was present in about 80% of their tests of stained wood that had been subjected to injury under controlled scientific conditions. I also suggested that possibly the fungus that appears to be associated with the staining could be more prevalent in certain climatic conditions (wetlands and floodplains as opposed to high arid semi deserts)

I was in no way saying that one subspecies or an other would or wouldn't stain, but was searching for logical explanations for what I have observed.

And yes, this is a good thread and discussion.


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