# problem logger



## ss13

Starting note: I am not going to include the name of the company or county where this logging is being done. 
I currently am having my property logged. The company came in and logged off a section of hardwood and said that the entire section is "rotten" and is pulp wood. Obviously substantially less pay for us. This section was supposed to be all veneer and sawlogs. 

In my opinion I did not see any "rot" in these logs, which are mostly hard maple. They have a nice large light "white" outer band and a darker inside core. The logger is claiming this inner core is "rot" and therefor pulp wood. 

From what I understand this white outside and dark inside is normal for maple. Am I wrong, or am I getting screwed? 

Does anyone have a suggestion? Should I be contacting the county forester, or another company to look at the existing stumps? Please help, Im looking for suggestions.


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## Kevin

Sounds like BS to me, but without a little more info and some pictures of the logs I can't say for sure. 



ss13 said:


> This section was supposed to be all veneer and sawlogs.



Who told you this?




ss13 said:


> Does anyone have a suggestion? Should I be contacting the county forester,



This is where I suggest you start. Your local forester is often your best resource. I've had occasion to meet with a forester numerous times and I've always walked away the better for it. I could give you a lot of advice based on what little you've shared but much of it might not be applicable because there's a lot of details I don't know. Get your forester out there - that's my advice. 

Please update us too about what he says.


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## HomeBody

I've heard so many horror stories about loggers raping small private tracts that I'd be real careful about who you hire. Get a NY lawyer to draw up a contract so you are protected. Gary


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## woodtickgreg

Around here in the northern Michigan woods the maples will often have a dark center and white outer, they are very hard and dense and that colored wood in the center can be beautiful to a wood worker. I agree with the others, talk to your forester before letting that logger take any more tree's. I guess it kinda depends on where the logger is selling the wood, maybe the mill is full so he's taking it to a pulp plant for easy disposal and quick cash. :dunno:


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## ss13

Attached are 2 photos of a load that went out a few weeks ago (still did not got a check or mill slip). Admittedly, there are a few visible logs with rot holes. What do you guys think about the remainder of the logs?

Note: this is the 2nd load off the property. I was not around when the 1st load was taken, nor do I know the overall size of the logs (I can only look at the stumps, also no check or mill slip.)


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## ss13

Also, the load pictured has the smaller logs off of this section. The 1st load, which I did not get a photo of had much larger logs.


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## Kevin

Most of those aren't even good puplwood size. Pulp buyers here prefer logs 10" and larger and 16' lengths, although I realize pulp buyers in different parts of the country will buy 8' lengths and smaller diameters. But that right there is a load of firewood but I guess you know that. If you're allowing wood to be harvested from your property and you don't have the level of control over the entire process that you want, that's your responsibility (fault). Do you even have a written contract? You haven't shared any details about how this harvest was arranged. Were you approached by a logger? Did you seek one out? It doesn't matter in the end if you have crossed all your tees but I'm curious about how this sale/buy was instigated. 

I don't mean to be harsh but from what little you've shared it sounds like you tried to save a nickel by not using a timber management consultant to stand between you and the logger and protect your interests. Without experience and knowledge, a landowner will often get taken advantage of by a logger who knows you don't have a clue. A forester can also fill this role to a degree at no charge depending on the state and even the individual forester.


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## ss13

Kevin,

I understand where you are coming from. You are correct in your statement about the smaller sized timber on the truck. I was an uneducated seller, who didn’t contact a middle man. But remember, that does not give the logger the right to scam the seller. This load is the smaller wood and some tops. The 1st load, which is not pictured, was bigger logs.

We do have a contract, which had been breached by the logger based on payments or lack thereof. The contract states that logs over 8" are sawlogs "bolts" and over 11" is veneer, based on quality. 

I was looking for experienced advice on whether the logs are of standard quality and not "rotted."

I appreciate your feedback and look forward to more opinions.

Added: This area is being clear cut because of a future field being established. That is the reason for some smaller timber.


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## Treecycle Hardwoods

ss13 said:


> Starting note: I am not going to include the name of the company or county where this logging is being done.
> I currently am having my property logged. The company came in and logged off a section of hardwood and said that the entire section is "rotten" and is pulp wood. Obviously substantially less pay for us. This section was supposed to be all veneer and sawlogs.
> 
> In my opinion I did not see any "rot" in these logs, which are mostly hard maple. They have a nice large light "white" outer band and a darker inside core. The logger is claiming this inner core is "rot" and therefor pulp wood.
> 
> From what I understand this white outside and dark inside is normal for maple. Am I wrong, or am I getting screwed?
> Does anyone have a suggestion? Should I be contacting the county forester, or another company to look at the existing stumps? Please help, Im looking for suggestions.



After reading the thread thus far I am almost certain I know who the logger is. What you are describing is the common MO for the guy I am thinking of. The guy I am referring to works heavily on craigslist advertising that he will pay 20-30-40K for maple logs. He says his range is between MI MN WI and IL. He sells mostly firewood (which is what that truck is full of) As Kevin had said those aren't even good pulp logs. They are to small for almost everything except burning. I am sorry you fell victim to this logger. My advise is expose the guy so others don't get scammed or taken advantage of. You don't have to tell us here who it is but at least contact the WI forestry dept or the BBB and let somebody know what happened. 

My personal experience with the guy was a bit shady also. He wanted to sell me some logs when I first started milling lumber. I had been getting help from Kevin and Darren pretty regularly at that time. They were awesome about throwing links and book titles at me regarding the milling and logging industry so by the time I got to the guys house I had a comfortable grip on what to look for in log quality. The guy was trying to get top dollar for logs in the middle of the quality range. He tried telling me they were veneer quality logs.... sound familiar? I walked away from that deal and tried again about a year later to get some black locust logs but got the same type of sales retoric which I promptly walked away from a second time.


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## Kevin

ss13 said:


> I was an uneducated seller, who didn’t contact a middle man. But remember, that does not give the logger the right to scam the seller.



That doesn't matter at all. In the cruel world of reality, crooked loggers don't care about your rights which is what makes them crooked. But let's not dwell on what happened, let's figure out a salvage plan. Does you contract give you the right to terminate the harvest? Whether it does or not, you can do so under contract law simply by asserting a breach of contract on the part of the logger, and depending on what he's done you can probably prove it. Although he may threaten to take you to court, to coerce you into letting him to continue screwing you, YOU are the one who needs to take action at this point and not be reactionary. 

CALL A FORESTER NOW. 

I don't mean to yell but I can't impress upoin you enough to take this step immediately. If your forester says it'll be a week then you must notice your logger in writing to cease and desist from even coming onto your property. If he doesn't get off immediately you can have your sheriff come out and stop him., If the logger shows the sheriff the contract and the sheriff sides with him, you can go to court and get an injunction pending a hearing. If you don't know how to do that yourself without hiring a lawyer, most lawyers are pretty cheap these days and filing a simple motion should cost no more than a couple hundred buck + court costs. 

What you have at stake is a lot more than that. I can't give you any more advice other than to take control of the situation. Don't be afraid to confront the logger and his crew. Don't be threatening, just be firm and tell them _"I am terminating the contract for cause, pending a court hearing of the matter and here's your written notice to cease and desist all logging operations on my property and leave with all your equipment and crew immediately."_. Hand it to him and walk off. Don't answer his questions especially if he ask _"For WHAT cause?"_ - you don't have to tell him and if you do it'll turn into a debate or argument which you don't want. Have a friend be with you and video them leaving, and make sure he doesn't leave any of his equipment at all. If you don't watch and video them they'll finish loading their trailer/s with the best logs they can get, and they're probably already doing that anyway between the crap they have loaded for you to see.


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## Gary Max

Damn------------ Did he kiss you first.

I bet your property looks great------ from that load it looks like you just got raped.


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## Kevin

Gary Max said:


> Damn------------ Did he kiss you first.
> 
> I bet your property looks great------ from that load it looks like you just got raped.



Sooner or later it happens to all of us in one endeavor or another. We've all made mistakes. Nothing to be ashamed of, just a lesson to be learned.


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## ss13

Gary Max said:


> Damn------------ Did he kiss you first.
> 
> I bet your property looks great------ from that load it looks like you just got raped.



That area will be great once this issue is resolved and I can clear the stumps for my new field. Deer magnet.


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## Gary Max

So you wanted the ground clear cut ??????????????????


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## davduckman2010

Kevin said:


> Gary Max said:
> 
> 
> 
> Damn------------ Did he kiss you first.
> 
> I bet your property looks great------ from that load it looks like you just got raped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sooner or later it happens to all of us in one endeavor or another. We've all made mistakes. Nothing to be ashamed of, just a lesson to be learned.
Click to expand...


i to have had my load of bs from loggers when i first decided to log out some of my trees. they came in buggys and cars and trucks and most all where doing me a big favor getting all those junk trees off my land . 1st guy 4000.00 for forty trees second guy 2400.00 for 45 trees he said it would cost him 3500.00 to get them out. and the rest about the same. and these were for the giant white and red oaks that had anywhere from 1500 to 2000 board feet each . after waying all these fantastic offers i told them all to go to hell. ill do it myself. i didnt know much about trees or wood but i can smell a load a shiit a mile away , oh ya they didnt want any of my crappy junky maples either they said its all pallet wood 20 cents a board feet. lets just say the oaks are pretty safe :rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3: duck


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## Gary Max

There's one crew around here that still uses mules-------it ain't fast but they don't distroy your land.


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## ss13

Got up to visit the property today. Good news of the day, the loggers and their equipment are gone. I then walked the property where they were logging. On the ground was 10 plus cords of maple. Not quite sure what to do with the wood, or how long it will last.

I contacted the dnr, county forester and a forest consultant. The consultant confirmed that the photograph of the truck had saw wood and possibly veneer( certainly not all palp or rotten). He will be coming out to the property Sunday to look at stumps. The dnr stated that the loggers actions don't fall under dnr laws. They suggested contacting the sheriff for possible charges ( fraud)


So, now I have to figure out what to do with the logs. The loggers threateded I would have to pay for the fallen logs. We will see.... Does anyone have advice on proceeding with a civil case? I have photographs of 1 loaded truck, photographs of all the stumps with a tape on them, and a consultant who will testify. Have any of you taken a case to civil court that is similar to this? Advice?


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## Kevin

Pursuing a suit for damages is altogether different than using the court system to get them off your property. There's no way to offer legitimate advice based on the scant information presented here, and I question any consultant who tells you your logs may be veneer based simply on a photograph. I've never seen the logs in question but I can tell you _"They may be veneer grade"_. 

My general advice is to listen to your forester from this point on. His feet are on the ground there, and more importantly his eyes. Unless I missed it, you have never even mentioned how many acres are involved, nor how many BF of timber has been logged. Unless you're talking several hundred thousand dollars worth or more in damages, you probably shouldn't even hire an investigator to do an asset search of your intended named party much less retain an attorney to get the ball rolling. Proving damages, winning the suit, then collecting the damages are always a different ball of wax. 

Sounds like to me you ought to just move on and forget the logger unless you're prepared to possibly lose a long, expensive, arduous litigation throwing good money on top of bad.....


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## woodtickgreg

Did you receive any payment for the logs taken? If you did at this point I would just be thankful for what you got and be equally as happy that they are gone. I might seek some legal advise so you are not sued by this shady logger. I would also spread his bad name so others do not get taken. Don't protect his name! I have always believed that good work and honesty deserves praise and mention, and bad work or business deserves to be broadcast even louder to protect others and the good business people. Shysters like this really make my blood boil!


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## From The Forty

Where are you located in WI? I am in the Southern Part of Door County. I am kind of curious who the logger is. Who knows, I might even be interested in your lower grade stuff or know someone that would be if you are close enough. I'd have to look at it, of course. PM if you don't want to post the info.

Geoff


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## Mizer

I would echo Kevin's last post and move on with a different logger recommended by either a forester or a satisfied land owner. The only person who is really qualified to determine that a log is veneer quality is a veneer buyer, and they are among the pickiest people in the world. There is no way to determine if a log was a veneer log from a stump or photos.


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## Mike1950

Suing also assumes he has something to get. My guess would be no and if he does-years down the road just before case is settled bankruptcy solves his problems but you will still have a large litigation bill think 10's of thousands. Only winners will be the attorneys.........


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## davduckman2010

only winners will be the lawyers--- hmmmmm i got a different name for them wich i cant print


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## DKMD

I'd talk with the forester. He may be aware of attorneys who specialize in this kind of law. If you can find someone to take the case on a contingency basis, you'll be protected from downside risk. The logger may not have a pile of cash, but he's got assets(saws, trucks, equipment, etc). Depending on the outcome, you might even win a garnishment on future earnings.

At the very least, if he's profited at your expense(taken trees without paying for them), you can have your accountant generate a 1099 for the value of what he's taken. You won't get any money for the trees, but he'll be responsible for paying taxes on the income. If he skirts the tax bill, he'll get to wrangle with the Inethical Revenue Service.


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## Kevin

I don't put much hope in him having assets in his name unless he's a real dope; most timber operations with any equipment to speak of don't own the equipment - they set up a trust, sell it to the trust, and lease it back from the trust. Trying to bust a well-planned trust is like trying to sue a congressman, and these days you might be surprised how many "small time" timber operators have one set up. 

Doesn't mean he shouldn't take a look as it isn't hard to do an asset search even by yourself but we still don't know if he's talking $50,000 worth of timber or $500,000. I'm guessing closer to 50K or less and that's nothing but spinning your wheels trying to collect on a damage of that amount.

This right here though is excellent advice (not saying the rest isn't).......



DKMD said:


> ...
> At the very least, if he's profited at your expense(taken trees without paying for them), you can have your accountant generate a 1099 for the value of what he's taken. You won't get any money for the trees, but he'll be responsible for paying taxes on the income. If he skirts the tax bill, he'll get to wrangle with the Inethical Revenue Service.


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## ss13

Guys we are talking small beans here. 2 loads have gone out. The county forester said it is very common to be awarded 3x the timber value in a court case. I have a consultant coming out tomorrow to look at the stumps. He will also be looking at the remaining area to be logged. I'm not sure if you guys are I interested, but I will continue to update the post when I have new info.

At this point I have to prove that the logs were of higher quality than pulp. Grade does not matter, just that they were better than pulp. From there I will be contacting the sheriff to file charges.

On a side note, I will not post the companies name until I am certain I was defrauded. I am no logging expert, that's why I am on the site looking for opinions. Also, the loggers left approximately 10 cords of maple laying on the ground.. I have to figure out what to do with it. Any idea how long I can leave it lay before it will lose value?


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## brown down

ss13 said:


> Guys we are talking small beans here. 2 loads have gone out. The county forester said it is very common to be awarded 3x the timber value in a court case. I have a consultant coming out tomorrow to look at the stumps. He will also be looking at the remaining area to be logged. I'm not sure if you guys are I interested, but I will continue to update the post when I have new info.
> 
> At this point I have to prove that the logs were of higher quality than pulp. Grade does not matter, just that they were better than pulp. From there I will be contacting the sheriff to file charges.
> 
> On a side note, I will not post the companies name until I am certain I was defrauded. I am no logging expert, that's why I am on the site looking for opinions. Also, the loggers left approximately 10 cords of maple laying on the ground.. I have to figure out what to do with it. Any idea how long I can leave it lay before it will lose value?



are those maple logs laying in a damp location??

IMO if they start to spalt you will get a bigger bang for your buck.. you may loose some timber doing it this way, but sounds like there may be a bit of a lull in your logging process and could allow them to spalt if they are in the right environment to do so!!
how large are the logs that are lying? firewood size or some decent size logs that could go to a mill?


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## sprucegum

Kevin said:


> ss13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was an uneducated seller, who didn’t contact a middle man. But remember, that does not give the logger the right to scam the seller.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't matter at all. In the cruel world of reality, crooked loggers don't care about your rights which is what makes them crooked. But let's not dwell on what happened, let's figure out a salvage plan. Does you contract give you the right to terminate the harvest? Whether it does or not, you can do so under contract law simply by asserting a breach of contract on the part of the logger, and depending on what he's done you can probably prove it. Although he may threaten to take you to court, to coerce you into letting him to continue screwing you, YOU are the one who needs to take action at this point and not be reactionary.
> 
> CALL A FORESTER NOW.
> 
> I don't mean to yell but I can't impress upoin you enough to take this step immediately. If your forester says it'll be a week then you must notice your logger in writing to cease and desist from even coming onto your property. If he doesn't get off immediately you can have your sheriff come out and stop him., If the logger shows the sheriff the contract and the sheriff sides with him, you can go to court and get an injunction pending a hearing. If you don't know how to do that yourself without hiring a lawyer, most lawyers are pretty cheap these days and filing a simple motion should cost no more than a couple hundred buck + court costs.
> 
> What you have at stake is a lot more than that. I can't give you any more advice other than to take control of the situation. Don't be afraid to confront the logger and his crew. Don't be threatening, just be firm and tell them _"I am terminating the contract for cause, pending a court hearing of the matter and here's your written notice to cease and desist all logging operations on my property and leave with all your equipment and crew immediately."_. Hand it to him and walk off. Don't answer his questions especially if he ask _"For WHAT cause?"_ - you don't have to tell him and if you do it'll turn into a debate or argument which you don't want. Have a friend be with you and video them leaving, and make sure he doesn't leave any of his equipment at all. If you don't watch and video them they'll finish loading their trailer/s with the best logs they can get, and they're probably already doing that anyway between the crap they have loaded for you to see.
Click to expand...


It is always sad to see what some so called loggers do to land owners. One of my sons is in the timber harvest business. He ownes two cable skidders and a tri axle truck. He works almost exclusively under the direction of a forester. The forester has the final say on how the timber is marketed and often brings log buyers to the yard to pick and choose the best logs and pay a premium price. Sometimes these buyers will only pick a couple of dozen logs from a good sized job but they know what they want and are willing to pay the price.
Not only does the forester protect the land owners rights he is there to negotiate issues between the land owner and the harvester. My son has more lumber lots offered to him than he can cut not because he pays top dollar but because he pays what he agrees to pay. 
The bottom line is unless you really know what you are doing or have a person you really trust spend the money to hire a forester and be sure to check his references. And above all stay away from the guy who offers to pay more than anyone else, you may get big bucks for what he pays you for but he will likely steal more than he pays for.
Sorry for the rant but this stuff really gets me riled :fit::fit::fit::fit::fit::fit::fit:


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## ss13

Update:

An official Termination notice was sent to the original loggers. The letter stated what the violations were and that the contract will be terminated immediately. We just decided to cut our losses and move on.

With the help of the DNR I was able to find a consultant to come in and look at our property. We arranged a new contract which will be signed on June 28th. The only part of the contract up in the air is whether to take a x2 payment per 1,00bf for veneer or take a 60/40 split on the veneer. The consultant says the mill will come out and grade the logs which will be staged on our property. Note, the timber will be red oak. Any ideas what will be more profitable for us, or what current red oak veneer is going for at the mills? 

Again,

Thanks for the help.


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## Kevin

ss13 said:


> ... Note, the timber will be red oak. Any ideas what will be more profitable for us, or what current red oak veneer is going for at the mills?



Timber and veneer prices can vary a great deal from region to region (and usually do). Your consultant should know what those prices are in your region and advise you accordingly. 

Glad to hear you're getting things on an even keel.


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