# Frustrated



## TXMoon (Sep 15, 2019)

Frustrated

Made, well finished, this Black Walnut bowl today. I turned the bottom last night and there was a lot of rot so I picked it out and filled the voids with black CA glue. One void went down to the 4th plane of Hell and just sucked up the CA glue. Not sure where it all ended up, and there’s still a void there.

But the frustrating part is I can’t get rid of the lines that show up when I finish the bowl. I finished turning the bowl and it was, perfect. No grain tareout, no tool marks, very smooth to the touch.

I sand with 120 grit starting with it spinning on the lathe at a low speed, 300 something rpm and sand it smooth. Then I stop the lathe then by hand I go over to remove the sanding lines, and any grain that is raised due to the rotation of the lathe until it’s smooth again. Move up to 180 grit, repeat the process. I do this same thing up to 400 grit then hit it with some micro-grit wax and finish with a wax polish.

Then I notice some grain tareout and rough spots on the inside, so I hit it with the scraper again, work it all down removing all of the previous finish until it’s smooth again. Start the sanding process I mention above all over again. This time, after the 400 grit I give it a coat of sanding sealer (50/50 Shellac and DNA) and let it rest for a half an hour. I come back with a buff with a 600 grit, wipe with a clean cloth then coat it good with Mahoney’s Oil.

So as you can see, there are so many scratches and lines I wonder why I even bother with sanding. I am ready to just grind it out, finish it with oil and call it “Artisan Rustic” and be done with it. I know I am doing something wrong.

I sand low rpm by hand, very little pressure. I sand by hand at a high rpm, just enough pressure to keep the sandpaper from flying out of my fingers. I sand with a 2” round padded drill bit, Low rpm, high rpm, all by hand, micro-grit paste, sanding sealer, every variation, and combination above to no avail. It looks good until I apply a finish.

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | EyeCandy! 3 | Agree 1


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## trc65 (Sep 15, 2019)

I'm guessing that those are lines that never got removed from your initial sanding with 120x. Perhaps the sanding dust filled and obscured the lines as you moved through the grits?

A couple of thoughts, use air to blow off bowl when you finish with each grit, then wipe with a solvent (alcohol, naptha, mineral spirits) which will often highlight scratches and make it easier to see them. Also use a very bright light held at a low angle to highlight areas that need more work.

Are you using a power sander, or holding the paper with your hand? If holding the paper, is it possible edges of the paper are rubbing the wood causing scratches?

One other thought, don't be afraid to go to a lower grit if 120x is taking too long to remove marks.

Hope some of this helps, that is a beautiful bowl youve turned and is worthy of some more work.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Great Post 1


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## TXMoon (Sep 15, 2019)

trc65 said:


> I'm guessing that those are lines that never got removed from your initial sanding with 120x. Perhaps the sanding dust filled and obscured the lines as you moved through the grits?
> 
> A couple of thoughts, use air to blow off bowl when you finish with each grit, then wipe with a solvent (alcohol, naptha, mineral spirits) which will often highlight scratches and make it easier to see them. Also use a very bright light held at a low angle to highlight areas that need more work.
> 
> ...


It does. I have been wiping off in between grits but not blowing off. And I have used DNA before I use 400 so maybe I need to step back and; Sand, Air, DNA, then repeat. 
I do use a power sander then go back over it by hand to sand down rough patches and the marks, and raised grain the sander leaves. 

I think I'll put this back on the lathe and try again. 
Thank you


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## duncsuss (Sep 15, 2019)

TXMoon said:


> I think I'll put this back on the lathe and try again.


Definitely worth going back to the lathe.

If you have a power sander, try using it with the lathe off, just rotate the chuck/bowl by hand. That way the scratch pattern will be swirls rather than concentric rings around the lathe axis. Sometimes that's easier to spot and remove.

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 2


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## woodman6415 (Sep 15, 2019)

Try using the power sander with lathe off .. no hand sanding between coats

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TXMoon (Sep 15, 2019)

woodman6415 said:


> Try using the power sander with lathe off .. no hand sanding between coats


I was just about to ask what RPM for the lathe when sanding, or power sanding? I watch videos where it's used as the lathe is on so thought that was the process. I'll give it a go with the lathe off.

Reactions: Like 1


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## woodman6415 (Sep 15, 2019)

Some woods will sand better with lathe on .. I find some do better with lathe off ... good luck

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## trc65 (Sep 15, 2019)

One other thought with the power sanding. If you are using a drill for sanding, try running it at only half speed or so. Running it too fast may not allow the grit of the paper to "grab" the wood and cut it.

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 1


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## William Tanner (Sep 15, 2019)

Tim suggested that the 120 did not remove the marks and I think that might be the case. Try the air hose. Also if you can, put on some readers and inspect in sun light between grits until you get it figured out. Bill

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 1


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## TimR (Sep 15, 2019)

Sanding at high speed with a power sander or by hand with lathe turning is not ideal. For me, when I’m sanding something the size of that bowl I’ll use 2” sanding discs with power sander and just move the lathe by hand, sometimes locking in place to make easier. I give a modest amount of pressure but go slow enough I can almost follow it spinning around. Go thru grits as you should and use the sandpaper like someone else is buying it. 
For outside of bowls, I use dense foam pad with sandpaper wrapped around it. 
In between grits, I just wipe it out quickly, nothing detailed. 
Great looking chunk of wood, you’ll get it!

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 1


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## Nubsnstubs (Sep 15, 2019)

Kevin it's probably the wood and not your technique. You mentioned rot in the bottom that you think you removed. Surprise, I believe the bowl is telling you that you missed a spot or two. If you still have some of the dust from this turning, as seen in the first picture, gather it up and sift it as fine as you can. Some screens are smaller that 1/32". Silk screening screen comes in grit sizes, just like sandpaper. Go to anyone that does silk screening, and buy some 60 grit screen if they'll sell it to you. If that's not the way it's measured, you're on your own. I finally found my 8" x 8" 60 grit screen, and will sift some dust to fill in voids like you have in the bottom. It does an excellent job for me. 
After you've filled the voids and sanded them flat a couple times to match the bottom, apply a thin coat of CA all around the bottom. Sand some going through the grits, and repeat with the CA. Do that until you don't see the scratches anymore. 
I don't use a whole lot of Walnut, so I haven't had those issues you have. Mesquite is my wood of choice. It has it's own problems, but I usually lose all scratches at 220 grit and brown Scotch Brite pads. 

Karda, a member here, has the same problem on another forum. ........... Jerry (in Tucson)

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 1


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## rocky1 (Sep 16, 2019)

Beautiful piece of wood... Having had repeated issues with concentric rings on the lathe, I would take it off the lathe, put it on the bench under good light, and hand sand until they went away. I have been known to be a bit anal about such things, and unfortunately those items usually turn into gifts, because you'll never recover your time in them. But, you're likely already there with this one, so another 23 hours and 42 minutes worth of hand sanding isn't gonna matter much.

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 3


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## Nature Man (Sep 16, 2019)

I've found the secret of sanding is time. Can't get in a hurry. I probably spend most of my time on most projects on sanding. Chuck

Reactions: Thank You! 2 | Agree 2


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## barry richardson (Sep 16, 2019)

Figures walnut can be a pain for showing scratches, especially crotch, maybe cause it's so dark, I dunno..... I do all final sanding off the lathe, the quickest and most efficient way For me to get rig of tell-tale radial scratch lines. use a 5" ROS on big stuff and a 2 or 3 inch pad on an angle sander for smaller stuff, works great...

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Useful 1


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## Nubsnstubs (Sep 16, 2019)

Kevin, another thing you could do is to stop making bowls, plates and platters and start making Hollow Forms with one inch and smaller openings. What you can't see isn't there........... Jerry (in Tucson)

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 7


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## DKMD (Sep 16, 2019)

Lots of good advice already... I also like wet sanding walnut at times. Lots of concentric rings there, so sanding with the lathe off may be a good trick. I usually stop sanding at 400 on bowls, but I’ll often go to 600 or 800 for walnut because it shows scratches so easily.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Karda (Sep 18, 2019)

I feel your pain, i am going through the same problems and got the same advice it helps a lot good luck. Nice wood is it a burl Mike

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## TXMoon (Sep 18, 2019)

Karda said:


> Nice wood is it a burl


There are some burl in it, it's just some black walnut that was in a discount bin at Woodcraft.


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## Woodworking Vet (Sep 18, 2019)

Regarding sanding there is a lot of good advice already given. Two things I do every time I sand is to blow air between grits and to always use a new piece of sand paper. If you're re-using sandpaper it could be that its not 'gritty' enough to do that job properly.

But what I see in your pictures is not sanding marks but rather tool marks. Those won't sand out and can easily be hidden by sanding dust. Tool marks can be present for a variety of reasons such as using dull tools (I always go to the grinder before the last finish cut), improper tool presentation, rpm's too slow when taking your finish cut, rubbing the heal of your gouge too hard and more. Tool marks are best avoided by taking one or two light finishing cuts with a freshly sharpened tool. Tool marks can be removed with a scraper, or better yet, a negative rake scraper but be sure to take light passes and sharpen often. Once the tool marks are removed then go to sanding. Be sure to blow the piece clean and look with good lighting, even if it means removing the piece from the lathe to get to a good light. 

If you decide to sand the tool marks out you'll be using 80 grit for a very long time, not the best way to go.

just my two cents, probably only worth one.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Karda (Sep 18, 2019)

ok


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