# any Ideas what this wood may be?



## pvwoodcrafts (Mar 2, 2020)

It also supposedly came from Brazil in the 1940's

Reactions: EyeCandy! 3


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## Mike1950 (Mar 2, 2020)

WAG IPE


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## Eric Rorabaugh (Mar 2, 2020)

I second the IPE


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## phinds (Mar 2, 2020)

I'm mixed about it being ipe. For one thing, it's not impossible for ipe to have such very heavy and very uniform interlocked grain but it would be unusual. For another, the end grain is not uniformly spaced diffuse porous but rather in groups, more like eucalyptus. This too is not impossible for ipe but very rare.
*
EDIT: after another look, I find that it is not as unusual as I thought for ipe to have that end grain pattern*

Another possibility is cumaru but that's not really a terrific match either.

@pvwoodcrafts is the wood oily to the touch? What's the density? Can you get a better end grain shot?

If it is ipe the sawdust if you sand it will be a mix of yellow, red, green. That's a sure test for ipe.


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## Nature Man (Mar 2, 2020)

Brazilian Ebony. Chuck


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## phinds (Mar 2, 2020)

Nature Man said:


> Brazilian Ebony. Chuck


Nope. Brazilian ebony is a true ebony, genus Swartzia. That end grain is not Swartzia.

EDIT: It could be Brazilian BROWN ebony, which is Caesalpinia pluviosa, although that end grain is not much better as a match for this mystery wood and I don't know whether brown ebony comes with heavy, regular interlocked grain but I doubt it.


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## phinds (Mar 2, 2020)

@Mr. Peet any ideas? I seem to recall you have a sample of ipe with pretty strong interlocked grain. Is it this strong?


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## phinds (Mar 2, 2020)

@pvwoodcrafts I think you're going to have to do the sanding to check for ipe, or if you have enough you could send me a sample to process.


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## Maverick (Mar 2, 2020)

How heavy is it? Ipe is very heavy. I built my deck with it a couple of years ago and I got a great workout.


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## pvwoodcrafts (Mar 2, 2020)

Its heavy and dense. Doesn't seem oily to me. Does seem to be splintery. I have some flatsawed too ,I'll snap a pic. Really reminds me of Brazilian cherry but color is all wrong


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 2, 2020)

phinds said:


> @Mr. Peet any ideas? I seem to recall you have a sample of ipe with pretty strong interlocked grain. Is it this strong?



Your responses are good, the lapacho is a big thing in Ipe and the sanding will help there. Yes, it can have ribbon figure / interlocked grain. 

As for your Chuck response, are you missing the word *not*? "Nope. Brazilian ebony is not a true ebony, genus Swartzia". 

Bus time...


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## phinds (Mar 2, 2020)

Mr. Peet said:


> Your responses are good, the lapacho is a big thing in Ipe and the sanding will help there. Yes, it can have ribbon figure / interlocked grain.


Yeah, but that strong?



> As for your Chuck response, are you missing the word *not*? "Nope. Brazilian ebony is not a true ebony, genus Swartzia".


Huh? Brazilian ebony IS Swartzia spp. specifically Swartzia panacoco or Swartzia panamensis. It is, as I stated, Brazilian BROWN ebony that is not Swartzia.


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## phinds (Mar 2, 2020)

Mike has told me in a PM that he did the sanding and it does NOT have to color variations of ipe, so I think that drives a nail in the coffin of ipe for this wood.

He's going to send me a sample.


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## phinds (Mar 2, 2020)

pvwoodcrafts said:


> Its heavy and dense. Doesn't seem oily to me. Does seem to be splintery. I have some flatsawed too ,I'll snap a pic. Really reminds me of Brazilian cherry but color is all wrong


Also, the end grain is completely wrong for jatoba.


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## pvwoodcrafts (Mar 2, 2020)

Well I thought both boards were the same but after planing doesn't look like it. Second unknown has white flecks in it like some of my old mahogany has. Guess its silica


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## phinds (Mar 2, 2020)

End grain still seems the same so it's possible they are still the same species. If you send samples of each, I can tell.


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 2, 2020)

phinds said:


> End grain still seems the same so it's possible they are still the same species. If you send samples of each, I can tell.



What about _Leucaena shannonii_, Frijolillo or Guaje, ribbon grained. I have a piece in the collection from Nicaragua. Or another from that genus. 

Looking at those 2 boards, they might be different. The white specks remind me of latex pockets, like that found in many Shoreas. But both being Brazilian, I'll have to ponder...


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## phinds (Mar 2, 2020)

Mr. Peet said:


> What about _Leucaena shannonii_, Frijolillo or Guaje, ribbon grained. I have a piece in the collection from Nicaragua. Or another from that genus.


Although that one is not on the site, I have pics of 8 samples and none of them show any sign of the heavy ribbon stripe (not even the one listed as "ribbon stripe") nor does the end grain look like this mystery wood (it's random diffuse porous, not patterned like this wood).

Some of them DO show interlocked grain. At least some of these must have come from you since I see pencil markings on several.

Reactions: Like 1


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## phinds (Mar 8, 2020)

OK, @pvwoodcrafts I've done the processing but have not yet done any analysis at all except to confirm your opinion that it is highly unlikely they are the same species. To that, I can add that they are quite possibly related species in the same genera.

Here are my standard 1/4" x 1/4" end grain cross sections: The piece with the interlocked grain / ribbon stripe is on the left. Clearly that one has moderate vasicentric parenchyma (the tissue around the pores) whereas the other one has very fat vasicentric parenchyma. Also the one on the left has skinnier rays and fewer pore multiples.




Just for grins, I did the high magnification version of each as well. Here are 3 of the first one and 3 of the second one. I didn't calculate exactly what magnification this is but obviously it's a lot higher than my normal 12X and it is shown here at 1/3rd of the full size of the images. This makes it much easier to see how much fatter the rays are in the second one.





SO ... different species, possibly related. Now I'll work on seeing if I can figure out what they each ARE.

Reactions: Way Cool 2


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## pvwoodcrafts (Mar 8, 2020)

wow they are different


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## phinds (Mar 10, 2020)

@pvwoodcrafts I've spent a fair amount of time comparing these to my samples. There are a number of coarse-grained woods with interlocked grain that could be the first one and a fair number that could be second one, but I was able to rule out pretty much all of them.

What I am left with is that the first one could easily be an Acacia spp. but there are many hundreds of different Acacia species and I have no idea which this might be, if any. Also, meranti is a remote possibility (Mark's suggestion of a Shorea spp.) but meranti pretty much always has diffuse in aggregates parenchyma and this has none.

For the second one, chamfuta is a remote possibility but this wood seems to have way too many pore multiples for chamfuta.

SO ... I'm not much help on these. It SEEMS that the first one at least should be a fairly easy ID what with that very strong interlocked grain, but I'm just not getting it.

Sorry, but that's how it goes sometimes.


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## pvwoodcrafts (Mar 10, 2020)

thanks for your help, least now I have an educated guess


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 10, 2020)

phinds said:


> @pvwoodcrafts I've spent a fair amount of time comparing these to my samples. There are a number of coarse-grained woods with interlocked grain that could be the first one and a fair number that could be second one, but I was able to rule out pretty much all of them.
> 
> What I am left with is that the first one could easily be an Acacia spp. but there are many hundreds of different Acacia species and I have no idea which this might be, if any. Also, meranti is a remote possibility (Mark's suggestion of a Shorea spp.) but meranti pretty much always has diffuse in aggregates parenchyma and this has none.
> 
> ...



If you are thinking acacia, good chance black light might help. What were densities?


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## phinds (Mar 10, 2020)

Mr. Peet said:


> If you are thinking acacia, good chance black light might help. What were densities?


Good point. Have not yet checked densities or UV


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## phinds (Apr 19, 2020)

phinds said:


> Good point. Have not yet checked densities or UV


No phosphorescence on either one. The ribbon stripe one is 58 lbs/cuft, the other one is 48 lbs/cuft. I'm going back through, comparing the end grains at 300X for each of these with those of
acacia
chamfuta
cumaru
merbau
sucupira
tatajuba

It is VERY tedious doing this so it's going slowly. Also, I'm old. And lazy. Mostly lazy.


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## Mr. Peet (Apr 19, 2020)

phinds said:


> No phosphorescence on either one. The ribbon stripe one is 55 lbs/cuft, the other one is 48 lbs/cuft. I'm going back through, comparing the end grains at 300X for each of these with those of
> acacia
> chamfuta
> cumaru
> ...



Most of the acacias, react to black-light, I'd skip to 'Cumaru', _Dipteryx odorata_ & other spp. It comes in many shades and sometimes has interlocked grain. Usually heavier...Bowdichia & Diplotropis make sense as well.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## phinds (May 3, 2020)

@pvwoodcrafts I've spent quite a bit of time on these and so far am still drawing a blank on the one without the ribbon stripe. For the one with the ribbon stripe, I'm pretty well convinced that it is sucupira. I'm too tired to give a blow by blow on how I figured it out and what the anatomical similarities are, but here's one of the final results. On the left is your wood with the top being at a medium resolution and the bottom at a higher resolution. On the right is sucupira at the same scale in both cases. As you can see it's a good match. Also, the density of 58 lbs/cuft is slightly low for sucupira but not at all unreasonable, and the color is quite reasonable.



 

What I DON'T like is the strong ribbon stripe being in sucupira. I've never seen that before. Sucupira IS generally interlocked like your wood and does sometimes have a mild ribbon stripe in small widths, but not strong all the way across a plank like your wood. It's possible that I've just never encountered it, and it is also possible that it is a very closely related species to Bowdichia nitida (which is what it is being compared to here). And of course it's possible that this is some other species entirely that I'm not familiar with but that has such similar anatomical characteristics to sucupira, although I'd be a bit surprised if that were the case.

@Mr. Peet any thoughts?


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## Mr. Peet (May 4, 2020)

phinds said:


> @pvwoodcrafts I've spent quite a bit of time on these and so far am still drawing a blank on the one without the ribbon stripe. For the one with the ribbon stripe, I'm pretty well convinced that it is sucupira. I'm too tired to give a blow by blow on how I figured it out and what the anatomical similarities are, but here's one of the final results. On the left is your wood with the top being at a medium resolution and the bottom at a higher resolution. On the right is sucupira at the same scale in both cases. As you can see it's a good match. Also, the density of 58 lbs/cuft is slightly low for sucupira but not at all unreasonable, and the color is quite reasonable.
> 
> View attachment 186516
> 
> ...



I have very little work experience with Sucupira. I recall a few species using the same name and being lumped when selling as flooring supplies.


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## phinds (May 4, 2020)

Mr. Peet said:


> I have very little work experience with Sucupira. I recall a few species using the same name and being lumped when selling as flooring supplies.


Yeah. Depending on what adjectival modifiers you are willing to accept, I have over two dozen species names. BUT ... in the US, it is normally just two: Bowdichia nitida and Bowdichia virgilioides


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## Mr. Peet (May 4, 2020)

phinds said:


> Yeah. Depending on what adjectival modifiers you are willing to accept, I have over two dozen species names. BUT ... in the US, it is normally just two: Bowdichia nitida and Bowdichia virgilioides



_Sweetia fruticosa_ is often sold as Yellow Sucupira, and sometimes lumped with _Bowdichia_. I think there is another genus also lumped, but as said before, within the flooring trade.


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## phinds (May 5, 2020)

Mr. Peet said:


> _Sweetia fruticosa_ is often sold as Yellow Sucupira, and sometimes lumped with _Bowdichia_. I think there is another genus also lumped, but as said before, within the flooring trade.


I take some sources with a grain of salt. My experience with the flooring industry is that a whole truckload of salt would not be enough. I ignore them completely.


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## phinds (May 5, 2020)

@pvwoodcrafts I've put the second wood up on my mystery wood page, with a full set of pics, as #222

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/mystery.htm#222


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