# Time to get some heat in the shop



## sprucegum (Nov 30, 2020)

Finally getting to work on my radiant heat. Made a little progress today and only one trip to the plumbing supply .

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## ripjack13 (Nov 30, 2020)




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## Wildthings (Nov 30, 2020)




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## Nature Man (Nov 30, 2020)

Radiant heat in a shop is a dream! Best of luck in the installation! Chuck

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## sprucegum (Dec 1, 2020)

sprucegum said:


> Finally getting to work on my radiant heat. Made a little progress today and only one trip to the plumbing supply .View attachment 197093


All piped up. Now the moment of truth. Got 30 pounds of air in it if that holds while I have lunch it will probably hold water

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## Karl_TN (Dec 1, 2020)

Please tell what components do when you have some time. How do you purge the air out when it is time to fill with water?


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## sprucegum (Dec 1, 2020)

It's a closed system and I have no water supply in the shop. I will fill it with a small transfer pump. There is a place to pump water in and a place to let it run back out with a ball valve between them. I just pump water from a bucket into the system, it circulates through the entire system and dumps back into the bucket, when I get no more air bubbles it is purged. Most systems have a auto fill valve and take on water as needed. I will have to check it now and then and manually add water as needed. We put a similar system my son's shop 4 years ago and he has yet to add water. Small system only holds about 6 gallons and it will probably only need to run at 100-120 degrees so if it's tight it should not loose much water.

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## Karl_TN (Dec 1, 2020)

What is the black device on the left do? I‘m guessing the pump but don’t see any electrical wires.


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## sprucegum (Dec 1, 2020)

You are correct I think Thursday may be my electrical day. I'm leaving it for last because I don't enjoy it. Love hooking pipes together.

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## Karl_TN (Dec 1, 2020)

sprucegum said:


> You are correct I think Thursday may be my electrical day. I'm leaving it for last because I don't enjoy it. Love hooking pipes together.



Your setup seems seems simple enough to follow, but now I’m curious about the efficiency.

Did you insulate between your slab and ground to prevent the ground from acting like a big heat sink? 

Suspect a tankless water heater is more efficient than most air heaters, but will you need additional heat on the really cold days in Vermont?

To be honest, I get envious hearing about shops having a warm floor since my garage slab is always cold in the winter. A retrofit would be too expensive for me and require that I completely empty out my shop. Seeing your setup makes me wish I did this to my floor when it was being poured. I’ll feel better about it if you tell me this setup is very expensive to install and run all the time. Just fib a little for my sake.

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## sprucegum (Dec 1, 2020)

Got 4 inches of foam board under the slab. 2.5 around the edges. R-27 walls R 60 ceiling. It is a condensing heater 90 something percent efficient. Plenty of btu for the building. Depending on the price of propane it will probably be around $500 for the winter. Small price to pay for a hiding place .

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## sprucegum (Dec 5, 2020)

After much procrastinating I finished up the wiring today. I guess I don't dislike electrical all that much, it was kind of a pleasant change. Hopefully I can get the propane Co to hook it up, they are supposed to come asess the situation Tues. I'm like come look why don't you just bring a tank, regulator, and 6' of pipe ? " We don't do it that way sir, the manager will look then schedule it."

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## sprucegum (Dec 9, 2020)

Well it's going to be another week too get the lp gas hooked up. So I have switched gears and started reconfiguring the old jet collector to a cyclone. This is what I have done after 2 days of puttering around with it. I put the old dirty dust bags on for now. I am thinking about putting in a tee with a blast gate to exhaust it outside in warm weather. I had a huge drop in vaccum when I put the bags on.

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## sprucegum (Dec 16, 2020)

The gas man came yesterday and I got my little radiant heat system going. Coldest night so far it was minus 3 at day break. I think it ran all night to warm the slab up I had it set on 60 and it shut off about 4 hours ago and it's 65 in here. I bet it won't run again today.

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## DLJeffs (Dec 16, 2020)

Nice job, Dave. Must be so nice to have a warm shop and especially a warm floor under your feet.

In the interest of safety, I want to add something if I may: it is very dangerous to pressure test piping systems and vessels using air or any compressible gas or fluid. Even at 30 psi, a huge amount of potential energy is accumulated in the system. If a failure occurs it can be dramatic to say the least. I worked for 30 years in the oil industry, refineries, etc. and we prohibited testing systems with air, nitrogen, etc. If getting water into the process was not good (for example, water ruined some catalyst and in some cases, water reacted rather violently with the stuff in the pipes, we tested with oil; or we washed the system with alcohol after the pressure test. We were serious about not testing with gas or compressible fluids. We also had to ensure there was a high point bleed, sometimes several, that we could open to ensure we got all the air out of the system when we filled it with water or oil, for the same reason. A trapped bubble of air compressed rather than pressurized and we had a potential bomb sitting there. Plus, you couldn't get an accurate pressure test with that bubble in there).

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## sprucegum (Dec 16, 2020)

Could be but it is common practice in the plumbing trade. Commercial jobs require pressure test for any pipes that will go under concrete. I won't pour concrete over radiant piping that is not under pressure.

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## trc65 (Dec 16, 2020)

I'm jealous! Especially as I just came in from the shop with a milk house heater sitting on my bench and a propane heater blowing on my lower half.

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## Wildthings (Dec 16, 2020)

I had to wear a jacket in my shop today brrrrrrrrrrrrrr Betcha @Tony didn't even leave his house today!!

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## sprucegum (Dec 16, 2020)

trc65 said:


> I'm jealous! Especially as I just came in from the shop with a milk house heater sitting on my bench and a propane heater blowing on my lower half.


Ha ha I know all about that after 50 years of being involved in building trades I have seen my share of portable heat. I have been using my old fuel oil carbon
monoxide belching salamander to work on my shop. I hope it is permanently retired. Been working on a new work bench all day I'm about done for the day just sitting on a bucket drinking coffee and listening to the radio. Almost hate To go in the house it's so pleasant here.

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## Sprung (Dec 16, 2020)

sprucegum said:


> I'm about done for the day just sitting on a bucket drinking coffee and listening to the radio. Almost hate To go in the house it's so pleasant here.



Yup, sometimes the shop is just a nice place to relax!

Great to hear about the heat!

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## Tony (Dec 16, 2020)

Wildthings said:


> I had to wear a jacket in my shop today brrrrrrrrrrrrrr Betcha @Tony didn't even leave his house today!!


I certainly didn't want to, it was 35 when I left the house this morning.

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## sprucegum (Dec 16, 2020)

35 ? That's just flannel shirt weather around here and not even that if you're working and the wind ain't blowing.

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## DLJeffs (Dec 16, 2020)

sprucegum said:


> Could be but it is common practice in the plumbing trade. Commercial jobs require pressure test for any pipes that will go under concrete. I won't pour concrete over radiant piping that is not under pressure.


Totally agree - I won't backfill a sprinkler head until I turn the water back on and check for leaks. I suspect it has become common practice in plumbing because the pressures are probably far below the rated burst pressure of the pipe/tubing. And air is faster and cheaper to use as a pressurizing agent, and an air leak is way easier to clean up than a water leak. Without getting overly technical, if you put 30psi of air in a closed pipe, and keep the temperature the same, the volume of air in that pipe is over twice what it would be naturally (1 atmosphere is around 14.7psi depending on altitude; so 30 psi is a little over twice that). The rated burst pressure of typical copper tubing is around 2600 psi give or take a few psi. So most of the time there is no problem. The trouble arises when there are defects in the tubing or anywhere else in the piping system. When it fails, it fails very rapidly. Picture a balloon when it pops. The air pressure in a balloon is typically a very tiny fraction of atmospheric pressure.

I just wanted to put it out there that if anyone is considering using air to pressure test something, be very careful. That's why they put tires in heavy gage wire cages when they pressure test them.

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## sprucegum (Dec 16, 2020)

DLJeffs said:


> That's why they put tires in heavy gage wire cages when they pressure test them.


Saw one of those blow apart. That's exciting. Yes water is a pain if you have a leak in a solder joint. You can't melt solder with a drop of water in the joint.

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## eaglea1 (Dec 16, 2020)

@Karl_TN "since my garage slab is always cold in the winter" You should feel our floors up here in winter, and yes
I agree with you about wishing I would have put in a heated floor. Always 20/20 hindsight. I'm running a mini split 
system with a propane heater, and using 3/4" rubber cow mats to keep off the concrete. When it gets serious cold
such as 0 - 20 deg. then I will put some toe heaters in the shoes. LOL

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## sprucegum (Dec 16, 2020)

A mini split is a nice way to go because of the àc option in the summer. Retro fitting the floor for radiant is not out of the question if you can spare a little headroom. I have never used electric radiant but that might be a option to just take the chill off the floor.

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## trc65 (Dec 16, 2020)

It got up to 30° today, so it wasn't too bad in the shop, although the cats kept huddling around my feet or trying to sit on the bench in front of the heater. 

Havent even had to break out the insulated bibs yet.

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## sprucegum (Dec 19, 2020)

It was 2 above zero this morning, probably around 10 now. Hate to brag but check out my new shop shoes. Ok I'm bragging but I can't help  it.

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## Nubsnstubs (Dec 19, 2020)

sprucegum said:


> It was 2 above zero this morning, probably around 10 now. Hate to brag but check out my new shop shoes. Ok I'm bragging but I can't help  it.
> 
> View attachment 198353


Dave, that's almost like those Florida boys' shoes. Theirs has a lot less material around the toes than yours, though. It's 43 now here in Tucson, and I had to go inside. I'm freeeezin. Too bad there isn't a pansy smilie. I'd use it in this case after hearing about your temps.. ..... Jerry (in Tucson)

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## sprucegum (Dec 19, 2020)

Nubsnstubs said:


> Dave, that's almost like those Florida boys' shoes. Theirs has a lot less material around the toes than yours, though. It's 43 now here in Tucson, and I had to go inside. I'm freeeezin. Too bad there isn't a pansy smilie. I'd use it in this case after hearing about your temps.. ..... Jerry (in Tucson)


Crocks are so comfortable on a concrete floor but they don't offer much protection if you drop your hammer. My wife got me some new ones for my birthday, think I will keep the old ones in the shop. A radiant floor really doesn't get very hot but if you work on one with winter boots on it gets uncomfortable pretty fast. My old shop was over a unheated garage, it could be nice and warm at head level and cold as ice on the floor.


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