# got a question???



## Jack "Pappy" Lewis (Jun 9, 2016)

Has any one ever tried using WOOTZ steel?


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## Molokai (Jun 10, 2016)

Nope because technology to made wootz steel has been lost, this so called recreations are just called like that. But overall it's good steel and knives made from "wootz" are pricey...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jack "Pappy" Lewis (Jun 10, 2016)

I figured there would be some knock offs of it...this is the real deal....just wondering if it would be worth the price to pick it up? $130.00

Reactions: Agree 1


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## robert flynt (Jun 10, 2016)

There is only one man in the US. that has come close, according to clinical test, to duplicating real wootz and $130.00 won't buy it. Who made it?


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## Jack "Pappy" Lewis (Jun 11, 2016)

this was coming out of India....http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Woo...617712?hash=item236b36ef70:g:2WkAAOSw~gRV6cfp I was going to offer the 130.00 bit......


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## robert flynt (Jun 12, 2016)

Jack "Pappy" Lewis said:


> this was coming out of India....http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Woo...617712?hash=item236b36ef70:g:2WkAAOSw~gRV6cfp I was going to offer the 130.00 bit......


Wootz did originate in that part of the world. As to days wootz goes it might be ok and then again who knows. It could be a crap shoot.


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## Kevin (Jun 12, 2016)

Wootz the big deal with Wootz steel?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kevin (Jun 12, 2016)

Molokai said:


> Nope because technology to made wootz steel has been lost, this so called recreations are just called like that. But overall it's good steel and knives made from "wootz" are pricey...



I was trying to learn about Wootz and of course the top result is the wiki entry. I'm certainly not challenging your statement AT ALL, but if Wikipedia is to be believed ....

_There are other smiths who are now consistently producing Wootz steel blades identical to the old patterns ... 
Not all of the secrets of Wootz have been discovered, but it has essentially been recreated by Anosov, Pendray and many smiths in the 20th century. Nonetheless, research continues.
_
The info seems to contradict, but this is normal for wikipedia.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jack "Pappy" Lewis (Jun 12, 2016)

from what i have researched the word "crucible" seems to be a major factor in the metal's desirability ... starting from a melted or liquefied form ending up forged billet. There also seems to be a tighter patterning with wootz. "Wootz steel contains an abundance of ultahard metallic carbides. This endows blades made from the steel with sharpness as well as toughness (the ability to keep and edge, resist breakage)." I found this statement in a sword and knives blog...now as far as me buying a piece I think I will ..........BUT..........my question now lies in the tempering of the steel after the knife form is shaped....looks like it is back to the research department


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## Jack "Pappy" Lewis (Jun 12, 2016)

well...well...well....what i have found is that this crucible steel is soft with an RC measure from the high 20's to 30's....and it bends easily and the swords or knives that were made were thin compared to most today. The quenching issue has been exactly that...everyone who thinks they know something has an opinion on it, from sticking red hot blades into slave's bellies and dipping them in urine/blood mixtures to water and air....so....whether or not the metal is good quality....I guess would depend on what type of quality a person is looking for? A knife that will sharpen easily....bend ....not break...verses a knife that hold an edge and be stiff as Hillary Clinton?


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## robert flynt (Jun 13, 2016)

Kevin said:


> I was trying to learn about Wootz and of course the top result is the wiki entry. I'm certainly not challenging your statement AT ALL, but if Wikipedia is to be believed ....
> 
> _There are other smiths who are now consistently producing Wootz steel blades identical to the old patterns ...
> Not all of the secrets of Wootz have been discovered, but it has essentially been recreated by Anosov, Pendray and many smiths in the 20th century. Nonetheless, research continues.
> ...


Al Pendray is the US maker I was referring to. According to medalurgist he had come close to the to the real wootz. Have not researched it much but it is my understanding it originated in India and may have been a precursor to damascus. I'm not sure of the pluses or minuses of it other than it is like damascus something different, a novelty. Wouldn't mind doing comparison testing with it and a non stainless steel like 52100.


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## robert flynt (Jun 13, 2016)

Jack "Pappy" Lewis said:


> well...well...well....what i have found is that this crucible steel is soft with an RC measure from the high 20's to 30's....and it bends easily and the swords or knives that were made were thin compared to most today. The quenching issue has been exactly that...everyone who thinks they know something has an opinion on it, from sticking red hot blades into slave's bellies and dipping them in urine/blood mixtures to water and air....so....whether or not the metal is good quality....I guess would depend on what type of quality a person is looking for? A knife that will sharpen easily....bend ....not break...verses a knife that hold an edge and be stiff as Hillary Clinton?


A blade made of 52100, w2, o1 and a number of other steels can be diffrentally heat treated to have a soft spine and brutally hard edge that can be bent 90 to 180 deg. without breaking. See Ed Fowler's artical in the September issue of Blade magazine. I just clay wrapped 3 W2 steel blades to make them hard to break and to create a beautiful hamon line. A great number of knives cleavers and axes with high carbon content are differentially heat treated to prevent breakage. As far as a 20 to 30 rc, that hardness wont cut hot butter. If it isn't a least in the fifties it won't hold an edge long enough to complete any task. As far as the heat treat quench The vikings guenched there Damascus blades in urine and it is believed the salt in the urine helped the process and I believe the quench in slaves was practiced on the African continent. A2 is air hardened as is a lot of stainless steel and most carbon steel can be water hardened if the water is the proper temp. and it is done properly, usually with an interrupted quench

Reactions: Agree 1


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## NYWoodturner (Jun 13, 2016)

robert flynt said:


> As far as a 20 to 30 rc, that hardness wont cut hot butter. If it isn't a least in the fifties it won't hold an edge long enough to complete any task.



Most steels are harder than that annealed. 

What kind of clay do you use Robert? I haven't tried a Homon line yet but have always been intrigued.


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## robert flynt (Jun 13, 2016)

NYWoodturner said:


> Most steels are harder than that annealed.
> 
> What kind of clay do you use Robert? I haven't tried a Homon line yet but have always been intrigued.


I use a premixed boiler brick mortar but you can use make a paste with satanite and water which works very well. Be sure to let it dry on the blade before you heat treat. By the way, W2 steel makes the best hamon line.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jack "Pappy" Lewis (Jun 14, 2016)

I agree with your statement Robert on the RC issue....my info was from Peter T. Swarz-Burt in a 2011 blog where they were discussing the hardness level between the old original wootz and the newer wootz made then. When you boil it down, the science behind making a great knife is a lot deeper then superstitions or wives tales....when I see words like diffusion-less transformation and martensitic transformation I shirk....because as a newbie to all this I am afraid of not hitting the mark before I even try to throw at the target?


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## robert flynt (Jun 14, 2016)

It would be wise to stay away from forums. They are full of misinformation! It is best to read books and articles by well know makers with proven track record. Start with good basic steels and as your experience grow advance to more exotic steel. You don't want to get a bad reputation due to poor heat treats and such. Wayne Goddard has a couple of, must read, books with a wealth of information in them. I have read them both and learned things I didn't know. Try not to over think it, as you have a question seek out the answer to that question. If you read a bunch of information with out a need you probably want retain it.


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## NYWoodturner (Jun 15, 2016)

I only use the steel manufacturers heat treat specs. Honestly I think they know best how to get the most from their steel. I have read some heat treat recipes from forums and found that there can be huge divides between them and what the manufacturer says.


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## Kevin (Jun 15, 2016)

robert flynt said:


> It would be wise to stay away from forums. They are full of misinformation!



This means he should ignore what you just said, meaning in turn, he should follow the advice on forums.


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## Jack "Pappy" Lewis (Jun 15, 2016)

LOL...forums do tend to stay in the dark side of ideas....I have a name sake that wrote many books on knives Jack Lewis.....some may have heard of him. I like to do my research in all approaches available, just like I received a piece of J2 yesterday in the mail as a gift from someone, oops....did i say J2? Yep....thinking on using it for guards and pommels...


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## robert flynt (Jun 15, 2016)

Kevin said:


> This means he should ignore what you just said, meaning in turn, he should follow the advice on forums.


I was referring to knife Forums. Some are full of misinformation from knifemaker wantabes who blow smoke up each others butt. My suggestion was for him to get Wayne Goddard's two books and seek out well established knifemakers for information. There are some well proven reference books out there to rely on. Kevin you need to Blade Gallery's Forum and read all the sniping and back biting that goes on then you will understand. I paid to sell knives on that site and sold a few but found the knives being posted for sell on that site were not the kind of knives I make this is how I discovered their forum and haven't been back.


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## robert flynt (Jun 15, 2016)

NYWoodturner said:


> I only use the steel manufacturers heat treat specs. Honestly I think they know best how to get the most from their steel. I have read some heat treat recipes from forums and found that there can be huge divides between them and what the manufacturer says.


I agree Scott! I have done some experimental heat treating on various steel but it's curosity than any thing else. To me, the most knowlagable metalergist for knives is Paul Bos. Before he retired he did all the heat treating for Buck Knives. Even some of the knife steel companies would send him steel to see what he could get out of it. His advice to me has always been rock solid.


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## robert flynt (Jun 15, 2016)

Jack "Pappy" Lewis said:


> LOL...forums do tend to stay in the dark side of ideas....I have a name sake that wrote many books on knives Jack Lewis.....some may have heard of him. I like to do my research in all approaches available, just like I received a piece of J2 yesterday in the mail as a gift from someone, oops....did i say J2? Yep....thinking on using it for guards and pommels...


I've used wrought iron and low carbon steel for guards but have never used structual steel like J2,K2 and some of the others. It is be pretty common around building construction sites.


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