# Persimmon Qs?



## Trob115 (May 6, 2022)

Is this normal for QS persimmon? I was processing a few sections of persimmon today , and this reminded me of the QS sycamore. It's really nice looking wood.

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## 2feathers Creative Making (May 7, 2022)

@Mr. Peet and @phinds would be able to say more than I, but I have seen that in a sample of Mexican persimmon.
D. Virginiana is our local tree but I haven't gotten hold of any in 20 years or so.


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## phinds (May 7, 2022)

I'm very surprized that Frank has seen that in persimmon. All the persimmon I've ever seen, including Mexican persimmon, has had rays that are way too thin to support those kinds of ray flakes. It looks much more like sycamore or macadamia. I'd need to see a good shot of the end grain to say any more.

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## Mike1950 (May 7, 2022)

Looks like qs sycamore to me. Not Persimmon

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## Trob115 (May 7, 2022)

I agree it looks like sycamore, but It's 100 percent persimmon. If I hadn't physically cut the tree myself, I wouldn't believe it.

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## Trob115 (May 7, 2022)

Here is the tree intact and the bark after cutting it off. Also pictured, another section of the same tree. I have loads of persimmon in my yard. Most of it has these rays.

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## phinds (May 7, 2022)

Amazing. Can you sent me a sample of that? I don't have any persimmon anything with anything like those rays.

Also, that bark is clearly not sycamore bark, so another confirmation that it's not sycamore.

Also, Frank wins again

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## Trob115 (May 7, 2022)

I 


phinds said:


> Amazing. Can you sent me a sample of that? I don't have any persimmon anything with anything like those rays.
> 
> Also, that bark is clearly not sycamore bark, so another confirmation that it's not sycamore.
> 
> Also, Frank wins again


I actually was searching your site yesterday to see if you had anything similar on your persimmon page.

How much do you need for a sample?


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## FLQuacker (May 7, 2022)

Advantage lumber had bins and bins full of 1x1x22 persimmon sticks a few years ago..a lot looked similar to this. Only other time i woulda bet it was sycamore!

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## Karl_TN (May 7, 2022)

Did you see any small very black areas near the center or around crotch sreas?


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## Mr. Peet (May 7, 2022)

Interesting...no, I have not seen any nor have any that match your wood. Before seeing the bark, which matches well with 'Persimmon' and 'Tupelo', to wood shown in post #5 matches well with 'Beech'. The rays in the end-grain appear 3-5 times wider than common persimmon. I have seen some heavy flecks in a few old golf clubs, but not to this level. It is also very odd not to have black streaking near any of the knots or bug holes.

Reminds me of 'Flowering Dogwood'.

Wonder what John thinks...
@TTP GC


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## Trob115 (May 7, 2022)

Karl_TN said:


> Did you see any small very black areas near the center or around crotch sreas?





Mr. Peet said:


> Interesting...no, I have not seen any nor have any that match your wood. Before seeing the bark, which matches well with 'Persimmon' and 'Tupelo', to wood shown in post #5 matches well with 'Beech'. The rays in the end-grain appear 3-5 times wider than common persimmon. I have seen some heavy flecks in a few old golf clubs, but not to this level. It is also very odd not to have black streaking near any of the knots or bug holes.
> 
> Reminds me of 'Flowering Dogwood'.
> 
> ...


Got tons of bugs on the other end of this log. Made this pot call from it. It did have a few of the typical ebony marks around the base of the trunk, but this tree was dead with some sort of disease causing the middle to almost appear to have heart rot. It was a big persimmon fruit producer too. I just found it really interesting to see all of those rays.

Reactions: Like 3 | Way Cool 1 | Informative 1


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## Mr. Peet (May 7, 2022)

Trob115 said:


> Got tons of bugs on the other end of this log. Made this pot call from it. It did have a few of the typical ebony marks around the base of the trunk, but this tree was dead with some sort of disease causing the middle to almost appear to have heart rot. It was a big persimmon fruit producer too. I just found it really interesting to see all of those rays.
> 
> View attachment 226487


That grain matches well with 'Persimmon'. Any fleck on the sides of the call?


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## Trob115 (May 7, 2022)

Mr. Peet said:


> That grain matches well with 'Persimmon'. Any fleck on the sides of the call?


Nope, not on this section. It was only present on the upper 2/3rds of the tree.

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## Karl_TN (May 7, 2022)

Trob115 said:


> Got tons of bugs on the other end of this log. Made this pot call from it. It did have a few of the typical ebony marks around the base of the trunk, but this tree was dead with some sort of disease causing the middle to almost appear to have heart rot. It was a big persimmon fruit producer too. I just found it really interesting to see all of those rays.


Something seems to be killing Persimmon trees around the MId South area. I’ve started to notice more standing dead persimmon trees lately. Nice you could save some it.

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## Trob115 (May 7, 2022)

Karl_TN said:


> Something seems to be killing Persimmon trees around the MId South area. I’ve started to notice more standing dead persimmon trees lately. Nice you could save some it.


Yep a lot of them seem to be dying off. It's one of my favorite woods so I'm always looking for them.

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## phinds (May 7, 2022)

Trob115 said:


> I
> 
> I actually was searching your site yesterday to see if you had anything similar on your persimmon page.
> 
> How much do you need for a sample?


I'd like something a hair bigger than an IWCS samples size. That's 3+" wide by 6+" long by 1/2"+ thick. I'd particularly like something thicker than 1/2" since that would give me more end grain to see. If you have enough, I'd like to get a second sample for Mark Peet. Thanks. Let me know if/when you ship and I'll pay the postage.

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## phinds (May 17, 2022)

Got the piece, Trey. Thanks. It will be a few days before I get it processed. I'll post pics.

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## phinds (May 21, 2022)

Well, it is definitely weird for a persimmon. In addition to the ray flakes, the end grain looks a lot more like sycamore than like persimmon, BUT ... it isn't all that good a match for sycamore either, just closer to that than to persimmon. The rays are bigger than normal persimmon but not as big as sycamore and the pore size is much smaller than normal persimmon and just slightly smaller than sycamore. The pore density is WAY higher than normal persimmon and a bit higher than sycamore.

At 10X I can't tell anything about the background parenchyma so I'll get some 300X pics and see what that says.

To show this, here are end grain closeups of 4 sets of persimmon followed by 4 pics taken from different areas of the weird persimmon followed by 4 sets of sycamore

persimmon:




weird "persimmon"




sycamore

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## 2feathers Creative Making (May 21, 2022)

End grain resembles Texas persimmon doesn't it? At least more so than virginiana. I finally found a persimmon to use for comparison but my dad won't let me cut it. It has only bloomed for about 3 years or so. He says it is still young... darn! And here I finally had a persimmon tree.

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## phinds (May 21, 2022)

2feathers Creative Making said:


> End grain resembles Texas persimmon doesn't it? At least more so than virginiana. I finally found a persimmon to use for comparison but my dad won't let me cut it. It has only bloomed for about 3 years or so. He says it is still young... darn! And here I finally had a persimmon tree.


Yes, it is closer to Texas / Mexican persimmon than to "normal" persimmon (Diospyros virginiana) but still no cigar.


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## phinds (May 21, 2022)

Well, I did the 300X comparison and it only told me exactly what I already said.

small section of persimmon at 300x





Small section of weird persimmon at 300X




small section of sycamore at 300X


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## 2feathers Creative Making (May 21, 2022)

Didn't find a hybrid didja?


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## phinds (May 21, 2022)

Here are two sections of the weird wood and the 3rd is Texas persimmon, showing that the weird one is pretty close but far from perfect

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## 2feathers Creative Making (May 21, 2022)

Closer but yeah, not a match you would use to prove anything.

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## phinds (May 21, 2022)

2feathers Creative Making said:


> Didn't find a hybrid didja?


I HATE'm when they do that. @Mr. Peet is a bear about making sure hybrids are properly identified. I tend to ignore them and hope they will go away.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## phinds (May 21, 2022)

2feathers Creative Making said:


> Closer but yeah, not a match you would use to prove anything.


Exactly


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## Mr. Peet (May 21, 2022)

phinds said:


> I HATE'm when they do that. @Mr. Peet is a bear about making sure hybrids are properly identified. I tend to ignore them and hope they will go away.


Might be a great Liz Wheeler question. You know how alder and several other species sometimes produce rays that are many times thicker than the common wood of the species...wonder if that is what we have? 

I assume you have already weighed it to compare densities and hit it with a blacklight for fun. However, think your pictures say we have something else as the poor sizes appear too varied.


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## phinds (May 21, 2022)

Mr. Peet said:


> Might be a great Liz Wheeler question. You know how alder and several other species sometimes produce rays that are many times thicker than the common wood of the species...wonder if that is what we have?
> 
> I assume you have already weighed it to compare densities and hit it with a blacklight for fun. However, think your pictures say we have something else as the poor sizes appear too varied.


Haven't tried black light yet, nor done the density. Will do both. Someday. Probably.

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## Trob115 (May 21, 2022)

I got some weirdo persimmon trees, that's cool!

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## phinds (Jul 7, 2022)

Mr. Peet said:


> You know how alder and several other species sometimes produce rays that are many times thicker than the common wood of the species...wonder if that is what we have?


Mark, I thought I had already answered this when you posted it but I see that I did not.

No, these are definitely not aggregate rays like in alder, they are just different sized rays, like in oak.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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