# Bad breadboard ends this is the result



## brown down (Oct 30, 2012)

This was one of my first builds years ago about 5-6. I didn't do the bread board ends properly and this is the result of that. Any ideas as to how to fix this. It is some beautiful figured cherry!! I am wondering if I could pull it back together and add some dutchmans along the joint but still doesn't fix the fact that the breadboard ends don't float an allow movement. Any help would be great this will be a winter project. Took some pics today because I had to rip everything apart last night from the storm blowing water in right above it 
I am trying to post from my phone and can only upload this pic. Have no Internet and power well generator that's it hopefully it comes out ok





[attachment=12883]


----------



## DKMD (Oct 30, 2012)

Hard to tell much from the photo, but I'd worry about using the Dutchmen. It may keep the joint closed, but I'm afraid the wood would split somewhere else. Any chance you can knock it all apart? I suppose you could always cut it apart and redo the joinery. That sucks... Looks like beautiful wood.:dash2:


----------



## brown down (Oct 30, 2012)

I think your right!! I think I have to saw the top off and redue it. It pissed me off to say the least considering it was my first major project. I almost dowsed it with gas and had. Nice exapensive fire. I think if I buy a jap saw I can remove it without trashing it. The problem is doing it so the new top fits tight without any gaps. And Also saving that figured cherry. I just don't know how to combat this


----------



## Kevin (Oct 30, 2012)

I'll commiserate with you Jeff. This is the first chest I built 22-23 years ago. I had no clue what I was doing. I can't understand why, but the outer breadboards have stayed mostly glued to the inner end grain top pieces all these years. Yes I glued them! Had no idea back then what sliding joinery and pegs were. 

[attachment=12922]

[attachment=12923]


The back long grain glue up failed, and the rest of the top is starting to fail from just me pulling it out of storage to take pictures. 
[attachment=12924]

I kept this one because it was my first. I did go on to learn how to build chests properly but this one will get the same thing as yours - a rebuild. So don't feel bad we all start somewhere - all we can do is just try to learn from our mistakes.


----------



## Mike1950 (Oct 30, 2012)

IT is WOOD. It does what IT wants. Funny note- what you cannot do I can. High mt. desert low humidity almost anything works. Brown- your work would not have failed here. It used to be we used wood localy and new what it would do. What works here will not there...............


----------



## Kevin (Oct 31, 2012)

Mike1950 said:


> ...what you cannot do I can. High mt. desert low humidity almost anything works. ...



But you should never build that way. If you build furniture you should build for generations. If you build for posterity you should know that piece of furniture is most certainly not going to stay in the high mountain desert all its life. 

And not trying to split hairs but it's important to understand, wood doesn't do what it wants to do, it does what the environment tells it to. It's reacts predictably once we understand it, and it can't do anything that physics doesn't allow for it. But there's the rub, we can only control it environment to a degree so we should always build as if it's going to see wild swings in RH and temperature because it probably will sooner or later.


----------



## Mike1950 (Oct 31, 2012)

I agree but also disagree- Hard to tell what a dresser does when you move it to florida from here- everything can be right but piece still may not like the huge change in humidity. We can all does the best we can but wood that was grown, harvested-dried and built in my climate will have to adapt to yours in finished form. I am not exactly sure how you allow for the unknown. Especially in a complicated piece. Probably would require knowledge I do not have. Instead I try to use methods that have been used before. Also they have passed the test of time and transportation. That said- my dresser top would not survive the trip south- the rest would. But the drawers with wooden slides??? I think they would need adjustment. If I wanted to transport I would use a lot more plywood and a lot less wood..........


----------



## Mike1950 (Oct 31, 2012)

PS. If you look at a lot of old solid wood furniture-very seldom is it completely intact-wood moves- allowing for that is not always a science.


----------



## Kevin (Oct 31, 2012)

Mike everything you are saying is in agreement with me, but you say you disagree. :dunno:



Mike1950 said:


> .. wood that was grown, harvested-dried and built in my climate will have to adapt to yours in finished form. ...



A board from a tree grown in the PNW will react the very same to 83% RH and 90 degrees and suddenly moved into 25% RH and 70 degrees whether it is in the PNW or Florida. Wood doesn't react to geo location it reacts to RH and temp. 83% RH is 83% RH no matter where.


----------



## Mike1950 (Oct 31, 2012)

Kevin said:


> Mike everything you are saying is in agreement with me, but you say you disagree. :dunno:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think we are agruing in cicles. I do not disagree. I am saying assembly of wood in your climate and moving it to mine and then being able to anticipate that woods movement is not easy. each wood will be different to some degree. Most of the time when solid wood furniture goes from very dry to very humid the end result is usually not good.


----------



## Kevin (Oct 31, 2012)

Mike1950 said:


> I think we are agruing in cicles. ...



You said that wood "does what it wants to do". I said that it does not and cannot, and then the topic seemed to widen into other areas. 

Back to my mill.


----------



## Mike1950 (Oct 31, 2012)

Kevin said:


> Mike1950 said:
> 
> 
> > I think we are agruing in cicles. ...
> ...



Kevin to me that makes absolutely no sense. you build and use your item in 80%-90% humidity- you are telling me that when you move it here-30-40% the peice does not change?????? If so why did the frames that I got in annapolis, Md change-they were 100 years old and had lived their whole life there. Wood does do what it wants to do..............


----------



## Kevin (Oct 31, 2012)

Mike1950 said:


> Kevin said:
> 
> 
> > Mike1950 said:
> ...



I didn't say anything even close my friend. You are missing the entire point. At the risk of sounding repetitive, you said "wood does what IT wants to do" as though it has a mind of it's own. I said that it does not do what it wants to do, it does what its environment tells it to do. It's a very important distinction, and one that most woodworkers have trouble understanding, but in order to get a grasp on wood movement this is the most fundamental concept one must understand. I'm not saying you don't understand it, I was typing for the novice who will come along and read this, and leave with the myth that wood movement is some mystical arcane subject that cannot be fully understood nor predicted. In fact, there are mountains of data including tables available where you can see down to the .001 inch how much white oak (or virtually any major species) will expand or contract tangentially, longitudinally, or radially per given % moisture/temp change and while there are variables regarding grain orientation/defects etc. those can also be calculated should you choose. 

My point is that wood DOES NOT and CANNOT do "what it wants to do." Once it has been dried and the stress relieved, it can't move a single fiber unless the environment it is in gives it a reason to move. And again, this is an important distinction to understand. 

This is the nexus of the discussion. 



Mike1950 said:


> - you are telling me that when you move it here-30-40% the peice does not change??????



Where have I ever said such a thing?


----------



## Mike1950 (Oct 31, 2012)

:)


----------



## brown down (Nov 4, 2012)

i learned the hard way, my uncle is one hell of a craftsman. he built his own custom workbench. vises on both ends and used dovetails to secure the vises. in the winter when the humidity is low the wood shrinks and you, can visibly see that it is back in its original state. now in the summer when the humidity is higher, the dovetails move and you can feel that it rises a couple hundreds of an inch. now when i build furniture i allow the whole piece to essentially float. i built a vanity for a friend, Breadboard ends done the right way pegged, but where the pegs are, they allow for minute movement, but enough where it won't explode. also where the side boards attached to the legs, i used sliding dovetails and only glued about a third of the way up the bottom end. this allows that also to move. it is going on two years and he hasn't had a problem yet and he can see how it moves.
wood moves with the climate change, no matter what type of finish you use unless the wood is stabalized it will absorb some moisture, it may not be much in our sense, but when it does the wood will swell a little causing exactly what happened here. 

sucks having to learn the hard way :dash2::dash2:
but that is how we learn. 
Mike i do agree with kevin only due to the fact of seeing it first hand on my uncles bench and my piece. 
I am just currious how I should go about fixing it, remove the top which would be a pain in the you know what, or cut some dutchmans in but i feel if i add dutchmans that it will be the same result only in a different spot. totally sucks when you put so much time into a project and this happens, not to mention the fact that it is some beautiful figured cherry!


----------



## Kevin (Nov 4, 2012)

brown down said:


> ... I am just currious how I should go about fixing it,...



I'm going to rip my breadboards out and install floating spline joints. That's the plan anyway. I've never seen or heard of floating double-sided splines but I don't see why it wouldn't work if the spline material is mesquite or something strong and stable like that, and deep enough to give enough support that the joints aren't floppy. 

If that doesn't work I'm going to maker an all new top. since I have to strip the thing anyway might as well. 

:i_dunno:


----------



## Mike1950 (Nov 4, 2012)

"Mike i do agree with kevin only due to the fact of seeing it first hand on my uncles bench and my piece. 
I am just currious how I should go about fixing it, remove the top which would be a pain in the you know what, or cut some dutchmans in but i feel if i add dutchmans that it will be the same result only in a different spot. totally sucks when you put so much time into a project and this happens, not to mention the fact that it is some beautiful figured cherry! "

As far as the facts- Yes and no for what Kevin said. The tables showing how much a peice of white oak will move- I have 2 peices of white oak that I am getting ready to use- one weighs 1/3rd more than the other. For us to think that we can always predict what a peice of wood will do- well maybe others are good enough But I know I am not. 
My bedroom set- the maple-walnut breadboard end- breaks the rules on all fronts. I know it- but-serving a higher master-I am married- it has survived 3 years. One of the reasons it has is the top itself is screwed on with large holes and washers so it can move as a unit. If the joints fail- I will get to tell her I told you so and replace them- so far the only victory I have had with that is the crow I have been eating is not too tough. 

[attachment=13116]

[attachment=13117]


----------



## Mike1950 (Nov 4, 2012)

To add to above- I just moved what I think was a Monkey pod carved chest- about the size of a blanket chest. Heavy carved top curved both ways. 100 yr old Beautiful chest- but when in laws moved it from Hawaii 30 yrs ago-wow -it did not like moving from humid to dry Mont climate. I look at it and am not sure how you compensate for the kind of movement this chest had. I will try to get a picture of it today. It is going some where else.


----------



## Kevin (Nov 4, 2012)

Mike you aren't agreeing or disagreeing with me, you are arguing with physics. I clearly predicated all of my statements, and I believe your misunderstandings arise from skipping over those predicates a s though they are irrelevant. That's just a guess on my part but just as in wood movement there has to be a reason. 

My original post was to commiserate with Jeff and he seems to understand exactly what I said.  I'm not making any new claims about wood movement merely repeating what much smarter men before me have already discovered. :wacko1:


----------



## Mike1950 (Nov 4, 2012)

Kevin, obviously I am not wording what I am saying right. I do not disagree with wood movement statement- I do disagree with absolutes when it comes to wood. I feel the same with Jeff's problem. 
It also does not matter- the nice thing about wood's lessons is that we all get to learn our own.


----------



## Mike1950 (Nov 4, 2012)

Question along Same Lines- How does a segmented bowl fair-all kinds of wood- comeing from humid to dry or visa versa?


----------



## Kevin (Nov 4, 2012)

Mike, I have found *this book*  to be absolutely indispensable over the years. it belongs in every woodworkers library - in fact anyone who works with wood in any way should have this book. It really will open your eyes. 

[attachment=13118]


----------



## Mike1950 (Nov 4, 2012)

Kevin said:


> Mike, I have found *this book*  to be absolutely indispensable over the years. it belongs in every woodworkers library - in fact anyone who works with wood in any way should have this book. It really will open your eyes.



I have that book and many others. Somehow we are not communicating here. The minute my stairs- 9 yrs old mahagony- mantle 10 yrs, silver chest 6 yrs. come apart -( none of the breadboard rules were followed) I will make sure to post pictures of said destruction. Sorry I find absolutes difficult.


----------



## Kevin (Nov 4, 2012)

Mike1950 said:


> I have that book and many others. Somehow we are not communicating here. The minute my stairs- 9 yrs old mahagony- mantle 10 yrs, silver chest 6 yrs. come apart -( none of the breadboard rules were followed) I will make sure to post pictures of said destruction. Sorry I find absolutes difficult.



One problem you're having is you're taking my words out of context and making statements for me that I have not made. This discussion started when you made this statement:



Mike1950 said:


> IT is WOOD. It does what IT wants. ...



This is simply not true and I replied:



Kevin said:


> ...... it's important to understand, wood doesn't do what it wants to do, it does what the environment tells it to.



As a general rule I avoid absolutes where possible, but when water gets below 32F it freezes. Absolutes are common place in nature. Once wood has reached EMC and all the stress is gone from it, not one jot nor tittle will move if the environment, mainly the moisture around the wood, remains constant. that's all I've been saying and you can argue with Hoadley and hordes of others smarter than us if you want, but I know when to quit banging my head against the wall my friend.


----------



## DKMD (Nov 4, 2012)

I'm officially threatening to sit between you two!


----------



## Kevin (Nov 4, 2012)

DKMD said:


> I'm officially threatening to sit between you two!



Bone cutters and politicians. What's the diff? 

But woe unto the unwary traveler who doesn't recognize us as kindred spirits . . . . .

I got your back Mike.


----------



## DKMD (Nov 4, 2012)

Kevin said:


> Bone cutters and politicians. What's the diff?



Well, I actually help people at my job...:no dice. more please:


----------



## healeydays (Nov 5, 2012)

Kevin said:


> Mike, I have found *this book*  to be absolutely indispensable over the years. it belongs in every woodworkers library - in fact anyone who works with wood in any way should have this book. It really will open your eyes.



Hi Kevin,

Just saw this note and thanks for the suggestion on the book. I just got a copy on Ebay for $7.23 shipped...

Mike B


----------



## brown down (Nov 7, 2012)

i think i am going to remove the top of this, which should be a blast getting it cut almost perfect! i think i will remove the breadboard ends, and do them right! also make the top of this unit float as well, i haven't decided if i want to do that tho! this was one of those projects from hell. when i put the poly on it, it turned yellow on me. this piece almost got dowsed with gas and burnt:lolol::lolol:
I think i have to remove it to save those two pretty boards! 

what saw would be best for doing this one of those jap saws?
my uncle has a flush mount saw just don't know if it will get close enough, so i don't loose the height of the piece.


----------



## brown down (Nov 7, 2012)

Mike1950 said:


> Question along Same Lines- How does a segmented bowl fair-all kinds of wood- comeing from humid to dry or visa versa?



mike i think when doing segmented bowls, you are gluing face grain to face grain, and end grain to end grain so to speak, which will move together and in the same direction. different species of wood move different for sure, but if they are around the same MC content the wood should move together. here i fastened face grain to end grain, which move in two different directions and one has to give, which was the glue joint! 
someone correct me if i am wrong! i have been wrong once or twice in my life


----------



## Kevin (Nov 7, 2012)

brown down said:


> i think i am going to remove the top of this, which should be a blast getting it cut almost perfect! i think i will remove the breadboard ends, and do them right! also make the top of this unit float as well, i haven't decided if i want to do that tho! this was one of those projects from hell. when i put the poly on it, it turned yellow on me. this piece almost got dowsed with gas and burnt:lolol::lolol:
> I think i have to remove it to save those two pretty boards!
> 
> what saw would be best for doing this one of those jap saws?
> my uncle has a flush mount saw just don't know if it will get close enough, so i don't loose the height of the piece.



If the table saw isn't an option, you can break it down with a clamped straight edge and a circular saw, like a poor man's festool system. I break down my sheet goods like that and use a high end clamping guide made for that, but you can use any straight edge and a couple of clamps. Just use a nice sharp blade (ripping for ripping and crosscut for crosscut). Also cover the bottom of your saw base with painters tape so you don't scuff your wood more than necessary. 

When you ask about the Japanese pull saw, I don't follow you. While there are Japanese ripping saws which cut on the pull, you must be very adept to use them accurately for ripping straight lines. Maybe I misunderstood the application for the pull saw. 

Anyway that's how I would break it down if I thought it was too gainly for the TS.


----------



## Kevin (Nov 7, 2012)

brown down said:


> ...
> someone correct me if i am wrong! i have been wrong once or twice in my life



You aren't wrong. Segmented turnings are made of very short pieces so there is very little movement. This calculator is handy and accurate, if the input is accurate. You can see in the "references" listed at the bottom to see what research the calculator is based on.


----------



## Kevin (Nov 7, 2012)

Forgot the link. Here it is.


----------

