# That still, small, voice



## Kevin (Oct 4, 2013)

About an hour ago I replied to Scott's BLM thread to tell him how beautiful it is and ended up going on a safety rant because of something that happened to me this week. It took away from his thread and his admirable work on that wonderful piece of art, so I removed it and am placing it here. No one had time to complain but after I reread it myself I realized I shouldn't have gone on such a rant in a thread showing off such a beautiful work. And Scott himself doesn't fit into this in any way - his HF void just reminded me of it since I am a scaredy cat of turning stuff like that. But I also think my message needs to be heard by other hardheads like me, who don't pay attention to their own limits usually, so here in relevant part is what I removed: 

_This week I retired my 16" table saw, at least temporarily. I just lost my nerve with it - there's no other way to say it. I haven't had a *real* close call with it, but for some reason I just can't keep pushing wood through it like I have been all these years and feel comfortable. I just don't have the same mettle I did even a few months ago. Every time I hit that magnetic switch I dreaded facing that huge blade and all that power knowing there is no way to avoid a bloody mess if I made even the slightest mental error - and I am all about mental erros it seems lately. I don't know why either but I guess I just accepted the fact that I am no longer able to use it without the power feeder. What you are doing is the same except you are gaining confidence, and that is good just play it safe is all I am saying. Keep going and don't push it too hard. _

Know your limits. I honestly believe I saved myself a lot of serious pain by retiring that saw at least for now. A big part of safety is realizing what your limits are, and more importantly when you reach them. That's my safety message for now.


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## Mike1950 (Oct 4, 2013)

Amen my friend amen. Limits- they are much better to find before you pass them.


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## NYWoodturner (Oct 4, 2013)

Man - If thats what you call a rant I think I have been in New York too long. We know how to rant  We'll go 10X that level over parking space.:dash2:
I thought your post was totally fitting where it was and a good message. 
Sometimes you just have to trust your gut. I think its talking to you for a reason. Wise men trust their instincts (or gut) and then there is the antithesis...


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## Mike1950 (Oct 4, 2013)

Limits - How do you know them unless you push them?

AH -that is what youth is for- after 63 yrs-well if you have not figured that out your body starts telling you- Youthful super eyes- well they aint so hot anymore- shoulder- somedays it really does not like me- Hands still very very strong and useful- tend to cramp and a smidgen of arthritis- reflex's- well let's just say they are a smidgen  past their prime. Good sense- getting better all the time and it tells me my physical limits- Does not mean That I do not have amazing things left to build and do- just that I am going listen to what wisdom I have thus preserving the body I have- It has been a wonderful one but to say it simply- there be a little slack in the bearings she's burnin a little oil.


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## Kevin (Oct 4, 2013)

goslin99 said:


> Limits - How do you know them unless you push them?



Exactly. Hopefully you will land on all threes. :cool2:


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## Brink (Oct 5, 2013)

NYWoodturner said:


> Man - If thats what you call a rant I think I have been in New York too long. We know how to rant  We'll go 10X that level over parking space.:dash2:
> I thought your post was totally fitting where it was and a good message.
> Sometimes you just have to trust your gut. I think its talking to you for a reason. Wise men trust their instincts (or gut) and then there is the antithesis...



We rant? Been here my whole life, never noticed it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## woodtickgreg (Oct 5, 2013)

Funny how this topic of aging has come up so often here, the younger folks won't get it but I sure do. It doesn't stop me either, like Kevin I just do things a little differently, maybe a little slower or smarter, better than not at all. I wonder how many more years will I be able to wield that chainsaw mill. :dunno: I guess when I can't mill anymore I'll just buy wood  and fire up the scroll saw. If physically something becomes to dangerous to do I won't do it without help or at all, or find another way to do it. I guess my point is that we may be slowing down and aging at different rates, but we can still do our craft in one form or another, and still pass our knowledge on to the youngins too.


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## Patrude (Oct 5, 2013)

Kevin said:


> About an hour ago I replied to Scott's BLM thread to tell him how beautiful it is and ended up going on a safety rant because of something that happened to me this week. It took away from his thread and his admirable work on that wonderful piece of art, so I removed it and am placing it here. No one had time to complain but after I reread it myself I realized I shouldn't have gone on such a rant in a thread showing off such a beautiful work. And Scott himself doesn't fit into this in any way - his HF void just reminded me of it since I am a scaredy cat of turning stuff like that. But I also think my message needs to be heard by other hardheads like me, who don't pay attention to their own limits usually, so here in relevant part is what I removed:
> 
> _This week I retired my 16" table saw, at least temporarily. I just lost my nerve with it - there's no other way to say it. I haven't had a *real* close call with it, but for some reason I just can't keep pushing wood through it like I have been all these years and feel comfortable. I just don't have the same mettle I did even a few months ago. Every time I hit that magnetic switch I dreaded facing that huge blade and all that power knowing there is no way to avoid a bloody mess if I made even the slightest mental error - and I am all about mental erros it seems lately. I don't know why either but I guess I just accepted the fact that I am no longer able to use it without the power feeder. What you are doing is the same except you are gaining confidence, and that is good just play it safe is all I am saying. Keep going and don't push it too hard. _
> 
> Know your limits. I honestly believe I saved myself a lot of serious pain by retiring that saw at least for now. A big part of safety is realizing what your limits are, and more importantly when you reach them. That's my safety message for now.



 good words Kevin; I am a firm believer in "going with your gut"  too many times I have just not paid attention to that little voice and have regretted it. :dash2::dash2:You did the right thing, if your not comfortable with an operation it's best not to force it. That's when things usually start going wrong. A retired piece of equipment beats the heck out of an injury any day


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## Patrude (Oct 5, 2013)

Kevin said:


> About an hour ago I replied to Scott's BLM thread to tell him how beautiful it is and ended up going on a safety rant because of something that happened to me this week. It took away from his thread and his admirable work on that wonderful piece of art, so I removed it and am placing it here. No one had time to complain but after I reread it myself I realized I shouldn't have gone on such a rant in a thread showing off such a beautiful work. And Scott himself doesn't fit into this in any way - his HF void just reminded me of it since I am a scaredy cat of turning stuff like that. But I also think my message needs to be heard by other hardheads like me, who don't pay attention to their own limits usually, so here in relevant part is what I removed:
> 
> _This week I retired my 16" table saw, at least temporarily. I just lost my nerve with it - there's no other way to say it. I haven't had a *real* close call with it, but for some reason I just can't keep pushing wood through it like I have been all these years and feel comfortable. I just don't have the same mettle I did even a few months ago. Every time I hit that magnetic switch I dreaded facing that huge blade and all that power knowing there is no way to avoid a bloody mess if I made even the slightest mental error - and I am all about mental erros it seems lately. I don't know why either but I guess I just accepted the fact that I am no longer able to use it without the power feeder. What you are doing is the same except you are gaining confidence, and that is good just play it safe is all I am saying. Keep going and don't push it too hard. _
> 
> Know your limits. I honestly believe I saved myself a lot of serious pain by retiring that saw at least for now. A big part of safety is realizing what your limits are, and more importantly when you reach them. That's my safety message for now.


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## Sprung (Oct 5, 2013)

Kevin, as you have done, it's always good to trust your gut on matters of shop safety, even if it means discontinuing use of something so awesome as a table saw with a 16" blade.

This reminds me of a few weeks ago when I pulled out the router I bought in August to try it out for the first time on some large pieces of scrap. Using it handheld really made me pucker up. As of right now, my plans are to make a router table and use it table mounted, with appropriate feather boards, push sticks, etc, until I maybe feel ready to try using it handheld again.

I have a healthy respect for my tools, especially in regards to personal safety. So far no tool has scared me as using a router for my very first time has. I'm definitely going to approach it with an even higher level of respect and caution!


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## Kevin (Oct 5, 2013)

Thanks Matt and all who commented. It's probably hard for most of you to relate to because few hobbyist woodworkers have even been in the same room as a 7.5 HP 3 phase motor turning such a blade, much less used one hundreds of times. This saw is like a locomotive and I have always loved that about it. The stamp on the motor is 5HP but the motor was made in 1946 (the saw is a 1947) and the the way the ratings were changed it is the same as a 7.5 HP motor of today according to Eagle Manufacturing that still services the old Olivers. 

I have to stand directly in front of the saw to use it because anything big enough to need this saw is a big chunk of heavy hardwood that you cannot push from the side. The blade kerf is 3/16" so even though sharp there's a lot of resistance with hard wood to big kerf, it's almost like standing in front of a small circle saw. If I ever get a piece of wood bound between the fence and blade it could literally kill me. Given the right (or wrong!) parameters it could launch a chunk of wood with enough force to nearly decapitate me. This is no exaggeration. Anything hitting me in the throat and that would almost be certain death. And for whatever reason, the past few months whenever I use the saw that's all I can think about. 

So, I have got myself psyched out obviously. I thought it would go away but it hasn't, so it has become distracting to the point of being hazardous. So instead of wetting my pants every time I hit that switch and forcing myself to try and ignore it, I just decided that anything I can't saw with my PM66 doesn't need to be sawn. I can always rip it on the band mill. I will set the saw up again when I get another power feeder for it. Until then it's gonna collect a nice layer of dust.

I have never dealt with anything like this. I've always been fearless about this kind of thing. Respectful but fearless - but for whatever reason that big old Oliver has put the fear of Jehovah in me. I figured it might help someone else deal with their demon in the shop if they have one. If so the thread was worth putting out there.


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## HomeBody (Oct 6, 2013)

I've got parts of 2 digits missing from machine shop duty. Be careful cause it hurts like hell if you get clipped. Gary


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## Cross Sawmill (Oct 6, 2013)

Kevin said:


> About an hour ago I replied to Scott's BLM thread to tell him how beautiful it is and ended up going on a safety rant because of something that happened to me this week. It took away from his thread and his admirable work on that wonderful piece of art, so I removed it and am placing it here. No one had time to complain but after I reread it myself I realized I shouldn't have gone on such a rant in a thread showing off such a beautiful work. And Scott himself doesn't fit into this in any way - his HF void just reminded me of it since I am a scaredy cat of turning stuff like that. But I also think my message needs to be heard by other hardheads like me, who don't pay attention to their own limits usually, so here in relevant part is what I removed:
> 
> _This week I retired my 16" table saw, at least temporarily. I just lost my nerve with it - there's no other way to say it. I haven't had a *real* close call with it, but for some reason I just can't keep pushing wood through it like I have been all these years and feel comfortable. I just don't have the same mettle I did even a few months ago. Every time I hit that magnetic switch I dreaded facing that huge blade and all that power knowing there is no way to avoid a bloody mess if I made even the slightest mental error - and I am all about mental erros it seems lately. I don't know why either but I guess I just accepted the fact that I am no longer able to use it without the power feeder. What you are doing is the same except you are gaining confidence, and that is good just play it safe is all I am saying. Keep going and don't push it too hard. _
> 
> Know your limits. I honestly believe I saved myself a lot of serious pain by retiring that saw at least for now. A big part of safety is realizing what your limits are, and more importantly when you reach them. That's my safety message for now.


 Kevin,
It is not possible to bring up Safety too much. It is too common to hear Someone say, I had been doing this for years and got Careless for only a Split-Second(Which is ALL it Takes). We certainly do not want to Kill or Injure Ourselves. But We have even MORE Responsibility for those around Us. Especially Children and Students. Stay On IT. Safety First! Steve


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## shadetree_1 (Oct 6, 2013)

Kevin said:


> Thanks Matt and all who commented. It's probably hard for most of you to relate to because few hobbyist woodworkers have even been in the same room as a 7.5 HP 3 phase motor turning such a blade, much less used one hundreds of times. This saw is like a locomotive and I have always loved that about it. The stamp on the motor is 5HP but the motor was made in 1946 (the saw is a 1947) and the the way the ratings were changed it is the same as a 7.5 HP motor of today according to Eagle Manufacturing that still services the old Olivers.
> 
> I have to stand directly in front of the saw to use it because anything big enough to need this saw is a big chunk of heavy hardwood that you cannot push from the side. The blade kerf is 3/16" so even though sharp there's a lot of resistance with hard wood to big kerf, it's almost like standing in front of a small circle saw. If I ever get a piece of wood bound between the fence and blade it could literally kill me. Given the right (or wrong!) parameters it could launch a chunk of wood with enough force to nearly decapitate me. This is no exaggeration. Anything hitting me in the throat and that would almost be certain death. And for whatever reason, the past few months whenever I use the saw that's all I can think about.
> 
> ...



I have to go with Kevin 100% i figured even at almost 66 I could still handle anything until my 4" grinder with a Lancelot chainsaw on it got me because I did NOT heed my gut, instead of putting the handle in to hold it I figured me tough guy could just hold it 2 handed even though I knew better, I was wrong and it near cut my Femeral artery, now needless to say this old Fool listens to his gut, call me chicken that's ok because I am! The fear has been put into me also. I just was not as smart as Kevin and did not put it away before it got me.


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## Kevin (Oct 6, 2013)

shadetree_1 said:


> I have to go with Kevin 100% i figured even at almost 66 I could still handle anything until my 4" grinder with a Lancelot chainsaw on it got me because I did NOT heed my gut, instead of putting the handle in to hold it I figured me tough guy could just hold it 2 handed even though I knew better, I was wrong and it near cut my Femeral artery, now needless to say this old Fool listens to his gut, call me chicken that's ok because I am! The fear has been put into me also. I just was not as smart as Kevin and did not put it away before it got me.



Joe I use my lancelot like that still! No handle and I even removed the guard to be able to use the back side of the chain. I have always known it was dangerous but did it anyway. No more. The handle and guard will be on next time I use it. Glad you posted this - it's all I needed to do what I have known I should do all along and that is use it correctly. Heck it's dangerous enough with the handle and guard on!


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## Cross Sawmill (Oct 6, 2013)

Kevin said:


> shadetree_1 said:
> 
> 
> > I have to go with Kevin 100% i figured even at almost 66 I could still handle anything until my 4" grinder with a Lancelot chainsaw on it got me because I did NOT heed my gut, instead of putting the handle in to hold it I figured me tough guy could just hold it 2 handed even though I knew better, I was wrong and it near cut my Femeral artery, now needless to say this old Fool listens to his gut, call me chicken that's ok because I am! The fear has been put into me also. I just was not as smart as Kevin and did not put it away before it got me.
> ...


 I live in Iron City ,Georgia within 60 Miles of Tallahassee , Florida . I interact with King Arthur Tools on a Regular Basis. Maverick Jaillet (Carving Instructor for King Arthur) comes to My Sawmill on a regular basis. We do different Wood Carvings, High End Rustic Tables ETC. Arthur Aveling (King Arthur) said that ANYBODY caught Operating without a guard would be fired or banished. Safety First. If it does not seem "RIGHT" take a break and think about it.
Steve


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## Kevin (Oct 6, 2013)

Steve don't tell him what I've been doing with his tools. :secret2:


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## Cross Sawmill (Oct 6, 2013)

Kevin said:


> Steve don't tell him what I've been doing with his tools. :secret2:


 WELLLL!!!!!!!!! O.K. Remember That They ARE Lethal. Our "Official" Statement is ALL GUARDS IN PLACE ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!!!!
aka SuperAX


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## shadetree_1 (Oct 6, 2013)

Kevin said:


> shadetree_1 said:
> 
> 
> > I have to go with Kevin 100% i figured even at almost 66 I could still handle anything until my 4" grinder with a Lancelot chainsaw on it got me because I did NOT heed my gut, instead of putting the handle in to hold it I figured me tough guy could just hold it 2 handed even though I knew better, I was wrong and it near cut my Femeral artery, now needless to say this old Fool listens to his gut, call me chicken that's ok because I am! The fear has been put into me also. I just was not as smart as Kevin and did not put it away before it got me.
> ...



I did not use the guard either, now I have a 4" long by 2" wide scar that went about 2" deep and I am lucky to still be here, when it gets a hold of you it just tears the crap out of anything in its way, small tool but a very mean one if not used properly!!


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## Kevin (Oct 6, 2013)

I can't imagine what that would be like. Of course every time I used the tool I thought about it and steeled my arms to make sure I never let it get loose, but I could have easily lost control with the right combination of factors. Most people have no clue what one is I will post a pic of mine in a minute so they can see what we are talking about. Mine is actually the 3.5" Squire model not the LL. For those that don't know just think of a small round chainsaw bar with the chain spinning out in space at a bazillion RPM. Nasty? That's putting it mildly . . . . .


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## Cross Sawmill (Oct 6, 2013)

Kevin said:


> I can't imagine what that would be like. Of course every time I used the tool I thought about it and steeled my arms to make sure I never let it get loose, but I could have easily lost control with the right combination of factors. Most people have no clue what one is I will post a pic of mine in a minute so they can see what we are talking about. Mine is actually the 3.5" Squire model not the LL. For those that don't know just think of a small round chainsaw bar with the chain spinning out in space at a bazillion RPM. Nasty? That's putting it mildly . . . . .


 Kevin,
King Arthur has several YouTube Videos on the Lancelot and other tools. They enable people to accomplish things that would be difficult/impossible to accomplish in any other way. Remember if "IT" is doing that to solid Wood what it would do to Human Flesh. SAFETY FIRST. I know You,I and many others take the risk of operating dangerous equipment. Just Do Everything You Can To Make It As Safe As Possible.
Steve
PS I have a Dealership and Could Make Good Deals. Just Have Respect (FEAR) When You Operate Them.


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## Cross Sawmill (Oct 6, 2013)

Cross Sawmill said:


> Kevin said:
> 
> 
> > I can't imagine what that would be like. Of course every time I used the tool I thought about it and steeled my arms to make sure I never let it get loose, but I could have easily lost control with the right combination of factors. Most people have no clue what one is I will post a pic of mine in a minute so they can see what we are talking about. Mine is actually the 3.5" Squire model not the LL. For those that don't know just think of a small round chainsaw bar with the chain spinning out in space at a bazillion RPM. Nasty? That's putting it mildly . . . . .
> ...


PPS Fun Fact(I Guess) King Arthur's Tools is the biggest supplier of "Powered" Wood Carving Tools in the World.


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## Kevin (Oct 6, 2013)

This would tend to ruin your day if it dug into your flesh . . . 

http://i1077.Rule #2/albums/w468/WoodBarter/Squire_zps5cb72029.jpg


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## Brink (Oct 6, 2013)

[attachment=32190]

This, too


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## jimmyjames (Oct 6, 2013)

The worst part about is when your doing something that you have that voice in the back of your head telling you to be careful and your nervous when doing that said operation is when bad things happen. Iget like that ssometimes and I just stop doing it and figure out a different way to do it


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## woodtickgreg (Oct 6, 2013)

Kevin said:


> This would tend to ruin your day if it dug into your flesh . . .
> 
> http://i1077.Rule #2/albums/w468/WoodBarter/Squire_zps5cb72029.jpg


Looks like it hit the power cord a few times.  Not that I have ever done that.


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## Kevin (Oct 6, 2013)

No Greg that is just wear, really. I do need to put a new cord on it though.


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## NYWoodturner (Oct 6, 2013)

I have a set of those. Very nice tool, scary sharp and pretty unpredictable when you get a catch or change in grain or hardness in a spalted or punky wood. You definitely do not want something else on your mind while your using them. 
Scott


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## Woodsman (Oct 17, 2013)

I had this sort of discussion with an elderly gentleman who visited my shop a few years back. He was riding me pretty hard about not having a guard or splitter on my old table saw. Honestly, I don't even know if they were ever equipped with them to begin with, but it certainly hasn't had one on it since I've owned it. 

I have never (without help) had a piece of wood launched from my saw in the 6 years that I have been woodworking, and the one time that I did, the wood was pinching the saw. This happens often enough and will continue to happen. What hadn't happened before this particular "pinching" was that I hadn't ever had someone standing beside the saw and then try to "help" with the process of finishing the cut. Whatever they did launched a 1x6x4' piece of hickory about 20' in the direction that I was standing hitting the wall at about 20" from floor level. Lucky for me I nearly always stand to the side of the work going through the saw or I would have been headed to the hospital. 

Yes, a splitter could have helped in this situation. Yes, no help with the problem would have been better as well. Standing rule in my shop. When I'm sawing with the table saw, NO-ONE is to attempt to help under any circumstance short of blood showing.

Back to the elderly gentleman who visited. After riding me about the saw not having any guard or splitter, we had a discussion about what was more important, a guard, splitter, or respect for (not fear of) the saw (or any other tool you choose). I am a firm believer that if you are afraid of the tool, no amount of useable guards, etc will keep you from injury. 

Jimmy had it right. 

"The worst part about is when your doing something that you have that voice in the back of your head telling you to be careful and your nervous when doing that said operation is when bad things happen."

There is a difference between fear and respect. When we fear the tool, that's when we get distracted by fear and that's when we get hurt. We should all respect our tools and just like was mentioned, we should know our limits. These limits include psychological as well as physical. There are other limits that we should be aware of as well, and those are the limit of the tool itself. Too often, we try and see just how far we can push them outside of their intended use. That's not to say that our tools can't be multipurpose, just that we should think at least a little about what might happen if that c-clamp your using as an anchor for a come-a-long comes loose or breaks because you've put too much force on it. (No, I haven't done that.....) 

As far as table saws go though, the best thing that anyone can do to their saw (for most of us one of the most used tools in the shop, and certainly one of the most dangerous for this reason) is to align the blade with the fence PRECISELY. If done properly, the blade should not be pinching the wood as it exits the saw or leave a gap on exiting. Properly aligned, the chances of kickback or pinching are greatly reduced. My saw is still capable of ripping an 18" long piece of lumber, lets say 8" wide with the fence set on 4", I can rip half way through the piece and walk away without it leaving the table. Now, I don't do this but every so often to prove a point. 

Sorry this post got so long. It wasn't my intention when I started.

With your permission, I will be posting (in the near future) some (graphic) photos of what not to do with a jointer as well.


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## Cross Sawmill (Oct 18, 2013)

Woodsman said:


> I had this sort of discussion with an elderly gentleman who visited my shop a few years back. He was riding me pretty hard about not having a guard or splitter on my old table saw. Honestly, I don't even know if they were ever equipped with them to begin with, but it certainly hasn't had one on it since I've owned it.
> 
> I have never (without help) had a piece of wood launched from my saw in the 6 years that I have been woodworking, and the one time that I did, the wood was pinching the saw. This happens often enough and will continue to happen. What hadn't happened before this particular "pinching" was that I hadn't ever had someone standing beside the saw and then try to "help" with the process of finishing the cut. Whatever they did launched a 1x6x4' piece of hickory about 20' in the direction that I was standing hitting the wall at about 20" from floor level. Lucky for me I nearly always stand to the side of the work going through the saw or I would have been headed to the hospital.
> 
> ...


 Remember "Siegfried and Roy"? One of them,I can not remember which, stuck his head in a Tigers mouth to prove a point. That worked for 30,000 times, BUT what happened on 30,000 and ONE?


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## Cross Sawmill (Oct 25, 2013)

Cross Sawmill said:


> Remember "Siegfried and Roy"? One of them,I can not remember which, stuck his head in a Tigers mouth to prove a point. That worked for 30,000 times, BUT what happened on 30,000 and ONE?


 INERTIA!!!!!!!!!!!! Inertia is a main factor in Circle Table Saws being dangerous. A band saw simply does not transmit forces like a "Circle Blade" ie a Big Table Saw will "Sling the bat guana" out of a piece of Wood OR a piece of Human Flesh. That is one reason I can count by fractions.


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