# Can't Get Stuff Centered



## JR Custom Calls (Apr 11, 2014)

Curious to find out whether this is me, the lathe, or what.

I cannot seem to ever get anything centered. I can use a center finder and punch and get dead center on something, turn it between centers, then chuck it up and it wobbles. I thought maybe my chuck needed to be adjusted, until I tried it last night in my collet chuck with the same result. 

It's really bad when I try to drill something. If I put something in the chuck, with a live center to make sure it's straight, it always cocks to one side or the other when I release the tailstock... so naturally when I go to drill, the bit bounces around like there's an earthquake. 

I'm using the 12" central machine lathe right now (mainly because it's all I could afford when I got it)... The bearings feel tight, there's no play up/down/right/left, and there's no heat at all... I have also, because the headstock swivels, made sure that the tailstock and headstock line perfectly. 

Any thoughts on this? Could it just be my technique?


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## Treecycle Hardwoods (Apr 11, 2014)

Have you brought your head and tail stock together to make sure they line up?

Edit: Oops I should stop speed reading I see you did that already


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## Nate Bos (Apr 11, 2014)

I think you just need to expect that. As far as I know this is a problem everyone has most of the time, when you switch from one method of holding to another you will get a little bit of wobble. Leave an extra bit of wood so that when you put it on the chuck you can true it up.
I sure ain't an expert so someone else will probably give you better advice but this is how I usually solve that problem


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## Tclem (Apr 11, 2014)

Quick drinking a case of beer before you Go to the shop. It isn't the lathe it's your balance

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mike Mills (Apr 11, 2014)

JR Custom Calls said:


> I thought maybe my chuck needed to be adjusted, until I tried it last night in my collet chuck with the same result.
> Do you have runout with your chucks when you don't have wood mounted in them? Do you have any runout on your spindle?
> It's really bad when I try to drill something. If I put something in the chuck, with a live center to make sure it's straight, it always cocks to one side or the other when I release the tailstock... so naturally when I go to drill, the bit bounces around like there's an earthquake.
> Is it possible the bed has some twist? The futher from the headstock (such as drilling) the greater the amount it will be off. It is also possible the wood can move some when you release the tailstock but it should not be enough to see.
> QUOTE]


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## JR Custom Calls (Apr 11, 2014)

No runout that I can see... and we're talking a couple inches from the headstock at the most. I mostly turn pot calls that stick an inch off the chuck... strikers are the longest things I turn at 9-10", but because I turn them between centers, I don't have issues. Biggest issue came last night while I was trying to drill an insert for a duck call. By the time it was all said and done, the end of my drill bit was about 1/4" to one side of the 5/8" insert... which doesn't make for a very good attempt at making a duck sound.

I also ran in to the issue where I had turned the insert down to 5/8" between centers, then chucked it in the collet to finish the end... and it wobbled like no tomorrow.


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## Kevin (Apr 11, 2014)

I can't offer any tips to avoid it, but just to throw in with you, I have this same problem with pepper mills when I go from between centers to chucking I almost always have to re-round and sometimes it's so maddening because it affects the fit of the mechanism. I have always written it off to my taiwanese made lathe and my sophomore turning skills.


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## Mike Mills (Apr 11, 2014)

Since it happens with both chucks, are you sure the mating surface at the headstock is clean and free of any burrs? It only takes a tiny burr to throw it off a lot. If you use the plastic washer to make chucks easier to remove try it without the washer as they can get buggered up.


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## JR Custom Calls (Apr 11, 2014)

Well, at least it happens to others... 

It still makes no sense. I suppose I'll pick up on how to minimize this as I get more experienced and find new techniques for turning these inserts and barrels. I need to pick up a drill press vice so I can drill them on the press instead of the lathe.


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## JR Custom Calls (Apr 11, 2014)

Mike Mills said:


> Since it happens with both chucks, are you sure the mating surface at the headstock is clean and free of any burrs? It only takes a tiny burr to throw it off a lot. If you use the plastic washer to make chucks easier to remove try it without the washer as they can get buggered up.



No... I don't use a washer. I have taken a wire brush and cleaned up the threads. The collet chuck is brand new, just got it Tuesday. The 4 jaw has been used quite a bit over the past couple months and had some buildup on it, but I took a wire wheel and completely cleaned it up to look brand new again. No burs, I've also considered that. 

I tighten everything down well when I mount the chuck on the headstock. I suppose that when I do get a new primary lathe of better quality, that will help me determine whether this is me or the lathe...


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## Kevin (Apr 11, 2014)

JR Custom Calls said:


> I need to pick up a drill press vice so I can drill them on the press instead of the lathe.



I was looking for one last month and man what a freaking jungle of choices. They range from around $50 to $1000+! I got _decision paralysis_. Good luck.


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## PhoenixWoodDesigns (Apr 11, 2014)

JR Custom Calls said:


> I need to pick up a drill press vice so I can drill them on the press instead of the lathe.



I actually prefer drilling on the lathe to a drill press.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## JR Custom Calls (Apr 11, 2014)

PhoenixWoodDesigns said:


> I actually prefer drilling on the lathe to a drill press.


I do too... but when I can't drill them straight, it's not worth tossing tons of wood to save a few minutes. If I can ever figure out what I'm doing wrong, then I'll go back to drilling on the lathe.


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## Kevin (Apr 11, 2014)

I agree with Michael, I prefer drilling on the lathe for most turning projects.


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## PhoenixWoodDesigns (Apr 11, 2014)

JR Custom Calls said:


> I do too... but when I can't drill them straight, it's not worth tossing tons of wood to save a few minutes. If I can ever figure out what I'm doing wrong, then I'll go back to drilling on the lathe.



Have you checked what your run out is on your lathe / chuck? Runout is caused by things not being perfectly round (be it your spindle, chuck, dead center, drill bit, whatever.) One of the problems with the harbor frieght lathe that I recall reading about is that the tolerances of the headstock aren't as precisely machined as say a Jet, Delta, Powermatic, etc... 

I would check the runout on the spindle itself and then also check the runout of the chuck. This will help narrow down where the problem really lies.

Aside from buying special equipment to measure the runout, you can move your tailstock up and position the tool rest at the center point of the spindle (so that the tool rest is about .025" away from the spindle, and is perpendicular to your lathe bed.) Take a ruler or any straight, flat edge of choice and rest it against the side of the spindle or chuck. Rotate the headstock by hand slowly and watch your ruler for movement. Also observe if there are points in its rotation where it no longer touches the straight edge (moves away from it.) That's where your run out is.

Note: Sometimes the runout on an accessory like a chuck or dead center can actually be how it's attaching to the lathe, and not the accessory itself. For instance, if you find that you have runout in your chuck, try taking it off the lathe and remounting it and check the runout again.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: One more thing.... the run out on long drill bits on the lathe (or even a drill press) is well known. The longer the drill bit, the more run out it will have.

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Informative 1


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## SENC (Apr 11, 2014)

Pics might help dx the problem


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## TimR (Apr 11, 2014)

Here's some other things that can be that would be very easy to screw up in mass machining these lathes. 
First, it could be a bad spindle, but spindle machining seems much less likely an error to me than machining errors in the headstock or tailstock itself. The headstock bearing bores need to be dead nuts parallel to the base of the headstock where it bolts to the ways, and side to side it has to be parallel to the run of the ways. Oh yea, and it also needs to be at the same elevation as the tailstock! 
Checking runout typically will only tell you that you have a bad spindle, or something wrong with seating surface of a chuck, so runout checks on their own won't tell the whole story. Threaded joints are inherently error prone, but typically don't contribute to big noticeable issues unless really fubar.

Here's a couple diagrams to check the trueness of the spindle bore to the ways. When using the disc method, be sure there is no face runout and that the face is flat. 
When using the 'stick' method, just insert a dowel into the chuck bore and lightly tighten to just hold. Keep adjusting the clamping till there is no runout at either end. You can do this be turning a dowel like piece to stay true with no runout, but it's much easier to just use a ready made 3/4" or so dowel that is nice and straight. If you have a piece of 1/2 or 5/8" steel bar...all the better.

Once you've corrected any tilt to the headstock, you can check elevation of tailstock center. Be sure to insert your center a couple different ways to make sure it's seating consistently. Similar to the issue with a bad headstock machining, a bad tailstock will show a different elevation of the point on the center depending on how far in or out it is. Check elevation of the point with tailstock at both extremes of travel.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## JR Custom Calls (Apr 11, 2014)

That's something I hadn't thought of. Just because it lines up at the headstock doesn't necessarily mean it would line up if the tailstock were a foot away.

I'll try that out next week when I get back from turkey hunting. Won't be around any until Tuesday. 



I very much appreciate all of the responses.


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## Mike Mills (Apr 11, 2014)

If your lathe has flat rails (not a tube type lathe) remove the tailstock and use winding sticks to check for twist. They can be wood, angle iron, tube steel...anything that is flat and true. One at the headstock and the other at the end of the ways should let you see any twist. Even the $4,000+ lathe beds can get twist.
Adjust the feet to remove the twist.
In this video he is checking a jointer but they are normally used to check the flatness of a board.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Schroedc (Apr 11, 2014)

The other suggestion I have when checking out your headstock, Are you releasing the tension on the belt before checking for play? I looked at a used lathe that was all over the place but the guy insisted no play in the headstock, released the belt tension and found out it really was loose.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## JR Custom Calls (Apr 11, 2014)

Honestly, I've never had the cover off to even see how to loosen the belt.


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## Mike Mills (Apr 11, 2014)

Colin's reply reminded me of this.
I have a swivel head also (Nova) and it IS possible to forget to lock the headstock even though the pin dropped into place. If that is the case you _may_ be the second person to forget but I know you would not be the first.


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## JR Custom Calls (Apr 11, 2014)

It's good and tight... to the point that I was worried about breaking the handle. Once it locks, it still has wiggle room... so I line up the drive center spur and the live center and lock it down. I don't turn it though, I did once and found it to be a PITA


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## APBcustoms (Apr 12, 2014)

Do you have a rotating headstock or a harbor frieght


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## duncsuss (Apr 19, 2014)

JR Custom Calls said:


> It's good and tight... to the point that I was worried about breaking the handle. Once it locks, it still has wiggle room... so I line up the drive center spur and the live center and lock it down. I don't turn it though, I did once and found it to be a PITA



As you already learned, there are a number of factors to head & tailstock alignment.

I bought the Novatek Acruline alignment tool (from Woodcraft, though Packard tools sells a similar item). It's a double-ended morse taper.

The problem it addresses is the headstock and tailstock pointing in different directions. You can make the tips of drive spurs line up perfectly even if they are off-axis -- but as you back the tailstock away, things don't line up any more.

The double-ended morse taper lets me get things lined up *and* on-axis.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## JR Custom Calls (Apr 19, 2014)

I realized that this is the case. 

I had thought my 3 wheel buffing mandrel was bent... until I thought about it. It is always about 1/2" to the back, perfect up and down. If I line it up, I can't center short stuff. I am beginning to think a new lathe is in my future.


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## duncsuss (Apr 19, 2014)

JR Custom Calls said:


> It is always about 1/2" to the back, perfect up and down. If I line it up, I can't center short stuff.



If I understand you correctly ... the 3-wheel buffing mandrel is MT and fits in the headstock?

Perfect!

Back the tailstock away. Bring the tool rest close to the tail-end of the buffing mandrel and lock it down.

Rotate the headstock by hand and watch the end of the mandrel.

Is it static in space? (I.e. doesn't wiggle around with respect to the tool rest.) If it's wiggling around, you've got a bent mandrel or the headstock bearings are shot.

If it's static, the only thing wrong at this time is your headstock is pointing the wrong way. With a dead center in the tailstock, move it towards (but not touching) the end of the mandrel. Loosen the headstock, rotate it so the end of the mandrel is centered on the point of the dead center, and lock down the headstock. Give it a spin by hand, the end should still not be wiggling around in space.

Now put the dead center into the headstock and the mandrel into the tailstock.

Rack the quill all the way out so it's at maximum extension, and then slide the tailstock towards the headstock. If the tip of the mandrel misses the point of the deadcenter, your tailstock is aiming the wrong direction. If it's on center, draw the quill back into the tailstock (until just before the mandrel pops loose), then slide the tailstock closer to the headstock to see if things still line up ... if they don't, it means your tailstock is not centered between the ways of the lathe and needs to be nudged to one side or the other.

Don't give up on the HF just yet -- I still use mine occasionally even though I bought a Nova 1624. It's a good lathe, granted it has it's limits, but overall I think it's great value.

HTH

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 1


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## JR Custom Calls (Apr 19, 2014)

Great. I'll give that a try.

I did use the toolrest to make sure the mandrel was straight... which it is. It's definitely an alignment issue between the tailstock and headstock. 

Im not sure if I'll get out in the shop much today, I'm home with one of the twins... she has pneumonia. We shall see.


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## duncsuss (Apr 19, 2014)

JR Custom Calls said:


> Im not sure if I'll get out in the shop much today, I'm home with one of the twins... she has pneumonia. We shall see.


Feh. Hope she's back in good health quickly.


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## dycmark (Apr 20, 2014)

With my Jet 1221VS i have the same problem is all due to misalignment, it is slight but SUPER frustrating if you try to drill. it will ruin many pieces, the lathe SHOULD be the most effective drilling tool ever for center drilling but had a ton of problems until I really got precise in looking into the misalignment. What started to make me wonder was when I purchased some center drills to start my drilling and I noticed that when I had a perfectly square pen blank mounted apparently perfectly in a PennState self centering drilling jaw and had the tail stock extended to cut and the center drill would start to cut a circle rather than punch a starting hole.

With ANY drill the drill would ultimately try to center itself in the spinning mass but in fact you are pointing the drill (say) down and away and not even contacting the center of the spinning mass to begin with. this generated massive side forces and you will need to retract and reinsert the drill 2 or 3 times to clear chips and to reposition the tail stock. this results in a massively over drilled/exaggerated hole on the end furthest from the chuck. I figured out in my case that when i drilled with 4 sheets of graph paper placed on the front forward corner of my tail stock before i drill the center drill punches a clean hole and doesn't carve a circle.

The 1st pen blank that I drilled like this, was the 1st time i experienced how a brass tube SHOULD fit into the blank drilled on the lathe, PERFECT, and i do mean perfect. I was ready to throw my brand new lathe out the window. I still have not dealt with it and have done a TON of research and have arrived at using some machinists shim stock added to just the right place on the base of the tail stock. I can remove it if i want or add more. I think the better thing to do would be to adjust the head stock but in my case the tail stock is down and toward the front so I dont know that I can shim the headstock out of that. it does not make it any easier that the bolts that hold on the headstock are underneath, this results in a nice clean headstock frame but (for me anyhow) makes addressing issues a nightmare. I think it is a great lathe but it is my second Jet and they both have the same issue. I have not addressed this with Jet yet because it took me over a year to find it with my limited shop time.

This might be something for you to try and you can do it with a good brad point stiff bit to but you must address the face of the blank you are using very very slowly, I suspect a softer piece of wood would also allow this to manifest easier than the harder woods that tends to force the tip into the center.

I would of course entertain any suggestions about my lathe from anyone also.

Mark


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## JR Custom Calls (Apr 20, 2014)

Interesting thought. 

I meant to post that I did do the trick suggested and found that once I centered the headstock and tailstock with the mandrel, it was also true when I flipped it around. So, anything 12" or more from the headstock is good to go... I still get the issue on shorter stuff, which is really frustrating when drilling inserts. Same issue with the tip of the bradpoint bit making a small circle. I'll see if a shim helps.

I did notice something, and this might be my fault. If I drill a 5/8 hole down the middle of a blank and turn it on my mandrel, then flip it around, it wobbles. The same thing happens when I flip pot calls over on the 4 jaw chuck. I've double checked that my drill press is drilling straight, so I'm out of thoughts. It's nothign major, just a pain. I've learned to compensate and leave a little extra when I know I need to flip something, but it seems to me that it should be straight since I turned it on the same tool.


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## dycmark (Apr 20, 2014)

If your brad point is making circles then as far as I can figure your tail stock (at least the protruding cutter - point of the brad drill...) is not in the center of the rotation of the headstock. It may not be totally the fault of the tail stock but experimenting with the shimming of the corners (i used observation of the sharp tips of 2 drive centers to determine what corner needed raised). I also find in mine an ever so slight amount of play in the ways for the tail stock allowing it to "rotate" slightly. So for me combining the rotation pressure clockwise combined with the paper shim puts it right where it seems to need go, it NEEDS FIXED!!! 

If you have the opposite problem where the headstock is lower than the tail stock then you have no choice but to start at the headstock side of things. obviously, you cant shim the tail stock into compliance if it is already tall... 

At least I can work without going insane when i actually get time to (severe ocd ). It is really frustrating since i am a fairly new turner and this was my 1st "real" lathe purchase. I realize it is no Powermatic or OneWay or American Beauty or (insert the name of your favorite lathe that I cant afford here ). I have a Delta 460 and a DVR I picked up last summer that haven't even been plugged in yet. maybe I'll have a 1221VS for sale once I get to fire one of those up. 

Once I figure out what exactly I need i was thinking of using this shim stock to try to apply a permanent fix. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00065UX42...=UTF8&colid=EW8CCAJWF23E&coliid=IQPZQMV8VDN86 

Mark


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## dycmark (Apr 20, 2014)

Is the mandrel you are using between centers? a headstock, regardless of what direction it is out and providing there is no run out, is still spinning in a true circle so "in theory" you may cause what should be flat to be turned as a taper but the flip should not cause wobble if you are actually able to accurately flip the piece. imagine the piece spinning around a wire in the air. no matte what the attitude of the wire, if you use that to turn it and the flip the piece over it should remain true to the wire since that is what you used to turn it.


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## JR Custom Calls (Apr 21, 2014)

No, I use an expanding mandrel. I don't use the tailstock because of this issue. Same goes with pot blanks, although, there'd be no way to use the tailstock for them.


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