# Would the Real National Champion Live Oak Please Stand Up . . . . . . .



## Kevin

Steve (@Cross Sawmill) and I have been wondering which known LO tree really is the national champion, so we decided to see about throwing this one into the mix and see how she stacks up. Steve is going to nominate it so we thought we'd catalog the progression here. It has never been nominated for even the GA state champ, but I haven't seen any state or national champion LO's that have such a large straight tall trunk as the Iron City LO. Let's call this tree the ICLO. 

The Live Oak Society of the Louisiana Garden Club Federation Inc. and the National Register of Big Trees run by americanforests.org both say that the Seven Sisters LO in St. Tammany Parish LA is the largest known LO today, and has been since 1976. The way they figure the points on a tree is with crown spread, trunk circumference at 4.5 feet (DBH), and height. I guess that's the only fair objective way but if you included length of the trunk to the first branch/branches then the ICLO would blow them all out of the water and there wouldn't even be a close second because the current champ splits off right at ground level. 

This is Seven Sisters , the current national champ estimated to be approximately 1500 years old:



 

SS's is SEVEN trees growing together so it's like ganging up 7 against 1 hey no fair! I also think what makes SS's the champ is how the ground supports the branches so that they can cover such a great diameter. 


Most of you have seen these next pics but for those that haven't, this is the ICLO and I think it speaks for itself:


 



 



 


Here's a video of SS's I found on YT. It shows just how 'less massive' the tree is compared to the ICLO at least in my opinion. What makes SS's win is the crown "spread" more like crown "sprawl. She's still a majestic tree but IMO it's a humongous bush.

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## kazuma78

I totally agree with you Kevin. I think the SS is definitely more of a bush the way its using the ground. The one you took pictures of is more massive and impressive by far. I think that one wins out. I would love to see that amazing tree in person

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## BarbS

This may be a stupid question, but, why is it out there all alone? Was this once an oak forest?


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## Kevin

BarbS said:


> This may be a stupid question, but, why is it out there all alone? Was this once an oak forest?



Barb I asked Steve the same thing but I may not remember it correctly so I'll wait until he joins in. He'll be along sometime today or tomorrow.

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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> Barb I asked Steve the same thing but I may not remember it correctly so I'll wait until he joins in. He'll be along sometime today or tomorrow.


 Barbs, Kevin and all interested parties. 
This tree was actually originally in a forest. The land around it was cleared for farm land. Although it "Might" have been possible to remove it, the land owner who is now in his 80's remembered it from his boyhood (When he said it was huge) and decided that even though it dominates several acres of land he wanted to keep it.
Steve

Reactions: Like 3 | Thank You! 1


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## Cross Sawmill

kazuma78 said:


> I totally agree with you Kevin. I think the SS is definitely more of a bush the way its using the ground. The one you took pictures of is more massive and impressive by far. I think that one wins out. I would love to see that amazing tree in person


 kazuma78,
I respect the Seven Sisters Live Oak. But ANY tree that is photographed needs SOMETHING for perspective IE a person, a vehicle or even a five gallon bucket. Just guessing (probably only a little) , The Iron City Live Oak is not only bigger, but massively bigger. Please include a person in the picture for perspective on any entry.
I have looked at a lot of Big Live Oak and have never seen one even close to this size.
Send pictures of big ones.
Steve
PS Does a "Grove" count as a trunk?


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## Kevin

Steve, Josh is in Africa he can't see a big tree if his life depended on it.

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## SENC

Those pictures of the ICLO are simply amazing... I'd love to see that tree someday. Growing up on the southeast coast, I've known and loved live oaks my whole life and seen some ancient and big ones, but the one I always heard stories about was the Angel Tree in Johns Island, SC. This tree was damaged in Hurricane Hugo, but apparently has recovered and is doing well again. Here are a few pictures I found of it. Don't think it beats ICLO, but it is a helluva tree.

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## Brink

We don't have live oak, but there is quarry oak.

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## Mr. Peet

There was at one time a separate category for single stem versus multiple stem when dealing with Champion Trees. Seven Sisters by name alone lacks the impressive shown by the ICLO. If in Thomasville, GA, look up the BIG OAK of Thomasville. It was in the top 50 live oak records since the 1940's. It has a single branch trailing 165 feet.


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## SENC

Brink said:


> We don't have live oak, but there is quarry oak.


Never heard of quarry oak... is that local name for a white oak?


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## barry richardson

Great thread,  I'm interested in seeing how it pans out....


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## Treecycle Hardwoods




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## HomeBody

Now I've got to walk back in the woods today and take a pic of a big white oak. Champions! Gary


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## ripjack13

Funny you posted this....after your original pic was posted in your vaca topic I started looking around the webs for info on "huge trees" and found this article....it's an interesting read. 

http://www.americanforests.org/magazine/article/wolf-trees-elders-of-the-eastern-forest/

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## Cross Sawmill

All of this is very interesting information. Comparing the different trees and their sizes is relevant. But, while we are on that, how do we quantify "BIG"?
From the pictures of the other Live Oak I have seen, it looks to me that the Iron City Live Oak is not only bigger, but a lot bigger.
I remember the DBH of the Iron City Live Oak is over 30 feet. I will measure it again soon and get a more precise number.
What is the DBH of some of the other Live Oak?
What is the DBH of The Seven Sisters? How is it measured? How does anyone know that there is only one root?
Steve


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## Cross Sawmill

PS The Iron City Live Oak appears the healthiest of the big Live Oak.
Steve


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## ripjack13

I saw info on how they measue em. I gotta find the site, but I do remember that they measured up 54" then from that spot they measure the circumference.


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## ripjack13

@Kevin
I sent you an email so you can print out the form.
I think it was the for the wrong state though....I had several pdfs open on my phone. But the gist is still the same for em all. The main thing is how they measure and use a point system for the grading.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## Kevin

ripjack13 said:


> @Kevin
> I sent you an email so you can print out the form.
> I think it was the for the wrong state though....I had several pdfs open on my phone. But the gist is still the same for em all. The main thing is how they measure and use a point system for the grading.



I replied to it this a.m. Marc. I've known how to nominate a tree for years. I was going to nominate one of my FBE trees in 2006 . . . . then I thought better of it.   

Thanks for the info though I pre-shade it.

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## ripjack13

Right...then everyone would know where your red pot of gold is located....

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Cross Sawmill

OK, This is not really a size question, but it is an Oak question/observation. Why does White Oak react with Iron and turn purple? As We know Live Oak is evergreen White Oak and White Oak is deciduous White Oak. I have been cutting a few Marine/Yacht Flitches out of Live Oak and you would not believe how purple the wood in contact with steel is. Even the face of the band wheels are purple. 
Steve

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## Treecycle Hardwoods

tannin is why i always thought it turned purple happens real quick in the sawdust after cutting with a fresh blade


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## Kevin

Steve before I make a fool of myself and hazard a guess, do you already know the answer or are you asking a question you don't know the answer to?


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## barry richardson

There is a big old American Elm in my home town in Missouri that I always thought might be some kind of record, most of them got wiped out with Dutch Elm disease, which reduced the competition a lot I imagine. This one escaped it, is huge and robust. Nothing like the size if these Live Oaks though. I will have to take some measurements on it next time I go back there...

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## Kevin

Treecycle Hardwoods said:


> tannin is why i always thought it turned purple happens real quick in the sawdust after cutting with a fresh blade



Greg red oak has tannin too right? My bunks are stainless steel so I don't know if red oak does it or not. I know walnut is full of tannin and turns my hands purplish when I work it a lot but red oak doesn't. Neither does white oak though. Not saying it isn't tannin just trying to figure out why red oak doesn't seem to.


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## Treecycle Hardwoods

Kevin said:


> Greg red oak has tannin too right? My bunks are stainless steel so I don't know if red oak does it or not. I know walnut is full of tannin and turns my hands purplish when I work it a lot but red oak doesn't. Neither does white oak though. Not saying it isn't tannin just trying to figure out why red oak doesn't seem to.


Red oak has it too I will come across nails, bolts, etc.. where the wood around them are blackish purple. I don't think the tannin levels are quite as high because the areas never seem to be as large or intense as white oak or walnut in similar situations. Willow believe it or not has reacted much more intensely to iron than red oak. Almost every time I mill willow if i don't sweep off the sawdust right away you will get all these purple dots on the surface where the sawdust layed for a bit.


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## Cross Sawmill

ripjack13 said:


> I saw info on how they measue em. I gotta find the site, but I do remember that they measured up 54" then from that spot they measure the circumference.


ripjack13,
I was talking with Kevin and he pointed out that The Iron City Live Oak as you are standing beside it you are standing on the root system at many places. Does one find the lowest elevation of the dirt around a tree or what? It sounds sort of silly unless you are dealing with a tree like this, but where does the 54" start?
 Where did the 54'' start on The Seven Sisters?
Steve


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## Kevin

How did they even come up with 36" for a "circumference" with 7 "trunks" . . . . if they can even be called that?


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## GeauxGameCalls

One of the smaller trees in the neighborhood but it's the only picture I had on my phone.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ripjack13

Lemme check....



Cross Sawmill said:


> ripjack13,
> I was talking with Kevin and he pointed out that The Iron City Live Oak as you are standing beside it you are standing on the root system at many places. Does one find the lowest elevation of the dirt around a tree or what? It sounds sort of silly unless you are dealing with a tree like this, but where does the 54" start?
> Where did the 54'' start on The Seven Sisters?
> Steve


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## ripjack13

I didn't find it on the page, but they have a Facebook page, so put the question on there. It might get a quicker responce than an email on a Friday night....


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## ripjack13

TREE DIAMETER OR CIRCUMFERENCE Diameter should be measured with a diameter tape made of steel, not something that might stretch. Although you can wrap a piece of twine around the tree to measure its circumference, that is only an estimate and it would be necessary to remeasure the diameter with a steel tape. Diameter is measured at breast height, which is defined as ***4½ feet above average ground level. Note that this measurement standard differs from what everyone else uses because diameter is NOT based on a measurement taken from the uphill side of the tree only. Diameter measurement problems are often related to the phrase "above average ground level." When trees are growing on a slope or uneven ground, the rule is to measure 4½ feet from both the uphill and downhill sides, find a point halfway between the two (this is the mid-point), and measure diameter there. If a slope is so steep that the mid-point ends up below ground level on the uphill side of the tree, then it may be necessary to measure diameter at a point above 4½ feet. In this situation, measure the tree as near to ground level as possible and record the measurement height on the nomination form. See figure below for an example of this diameter measurement scenario.

***red emphasis added by Kevin


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## ripjack13

Oh my god....it didn't look like that when I pastedit. Sorry. I will go back and edit it tonight after the grandson goes to bed.
Lemme see if I can post a link to the pdf or something...


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## Kevin

I recognized the paragraph Marc from its original source when I studied up on this in 2006. It's from this USDA publication linked below. I would like to say I put all the spaces in but all I did was paste the paragraph from the USDA website and replace your mishmashpargraphthathadnospaces with the one that does. 

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5202838.pdf

Reactions: Great Post 1


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## Kevin

ripjack13 said:


> ...4½ feet above average ground level...



And of course they don't tell us what to do in a situation where the root system is so large that you cannot stand anywhere that there's no roots pushing you up well above the surrounding ground level. These roots are so big you cannot comfortably walk around the tree without twisting an ankle if you aren't very careful.

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## Kevin

GeauxGameCalls said:


> One of the smaller trees in the neighborhood but it's the only picture I had on my phone.



It's just a baby in comparison to ICLO but it is definitely a beautiful tree. Wish I had something like that in my yard.


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## Kevin

See the root system in Elliot's picture? Multiply that times a *lot* and you have ICLO's root system. Try walking around that without twisting an ankle - it's almost like skipping across a river on stones.


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## GeauxGameCalls

The roots in the ones in my yard are an average of 18 inches above ground. I'm on LSU campus for the weekend waiting for the softball tourney when I get back I'll take a picture of the one in my yard.

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## Cross Sawmill

Well,
I read the USDA method. It seems that in many cases the 54'' is just an approximate guess. In the case of The Iron City Live Oak, I would think to find the average height of the dirt (not roots) and try to set up a string line. When we measured before , I am pretty sure we were standing on the roots. Give me a couple of days and I will try to get a close measurement/ guesstimate. It is going to be over thirty feet DBH.
Steve

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## Kevin

Steve @BarbS asked a question and I think you are better able to answer it than me obviously. Plus it's a good history lesson of the tree please take the time to answer her question when you get time.


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> Steve @BarbS asked a question and I think you are better able to answer it than me obviously. Plus it's a good history lesson of the tree please take the time to answer her question when you get time.


OK , What is the question? Was it about the tree being out alone? I answered that, but if there is another question and I can answer it I will.
Steve


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## Kevin

Cross Sawmill said:


> OK , What is the question? Was it about the tree being out alone? I answered that, but if there is another question and I can answer it I will. Steve



Yap. Sorry I had slept since then. I am managing the end of a marathon sanding session of end grain cookies and I am a little distracted because my helpers don't like it any more than I do. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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## BarbS

Cross Sawmill said:


> Barbs, Kevin and all interested parties.
> This tree was actually originally in a forest. The land around it was cleared for farm land. Although it "Might" have been possible to remove it, the land owner who is now in his 80's remembered it from his boyhood (When he said it was huge) and decided that even though it dominates several acres of land he wanted to keep it.
> Steve


Thanks Steve. I suspected as much, but it sure has an effect standing out there all alone now!


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## BarbS

Cross Sawmill said:


> OK , What is the question? Was it about the tree being out alone? I answered that, but if there is another question and I can answer it I will.
> Steve


Thanks, Steve!


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## ripjack13

Thanks for fixing that for me @Kevin , That was a lil easier than me doing the spaces.


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## HomeBody

Here's a pic of our neighborhood "big tree". A white oak that is so old it doesn't produce nuts anymore. I measured it yesterday with a string and came up with 16' 3". I doubt it's a champion but it's a pretty big tree. Gary

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## SENC

Kevin and Steve - you two (and others) may find this site interesting: http://www.nativetreesociety.org/fieldtrips/south_carolina/middleton_oak_project.htm

I had forgotten about this until your thread got me thinking about live oaks. This tree was considered the champion in terms of wood volume until it lost a major branch... at which time a bald cypress in Florida (the Senator) became champ. I think the Senator since burned. At any rate, this link goes to a listing of communications about measuring the Middleton Oak... pretty cool story that might give some guidance on your quest.

Found a couple pics...

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## Cross Sawmill

Cross Sawmill said:


> Well,
> I read the USDA method. It seems that in many cases the 54'' is just an approximate guess. In the case of The Iron City Live Oak, I would think to find the average height of the dirt (not roots) and try to set up a string line. When we measured before , I am pretty sure we were standing on the roots. Give me a couple of days and I will try to get a close measurement/ guesstimate. It is going to be over thirty feet DBH.
> Steve


OOPS! Brain Fade! I meant 30 Feet plus circumference and a diameter of 10 feet plus. Which puts it in a category,perhaps, with the Middleton Live Oak. It (Iron City Live Oak) is still a BIG tree. Next step is to try to get more precision measurements.
Steve


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## Cross Sawmill

SENC said:


> Kevin and Steve - you two (and others) may find this site interesting: http://www.nativetreesociety.org/fieldtrips/south_carolina/middleton_oak_project.htm
> 
> I had forgotten about this until your thread got me thinking about live oaks. This tree was considered the champion in terms of wood volume until it lost a major branch... at which time a bald cypress in Florida (the Senator) became champ. I think the Senator since burned. At any rate, this link goes to a listing of communications about measuring the Middleton Oak... pretty cool story that might give some guidance on your quest.
> 
> Found a couple pics...
> 
> View attachment 79038
> 
> View attachment 79039


 What do you think Kevin? I believe the Iron City Oak has it beat even when The Middleton Oak had all of it's limbs. We gotta get the "Scientific" measurement on the Iron City Live Oak or it is all speculation and "He said/She said".
Steve


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> Steve before I make a fool of myself and hazard a guess, do you already know the answer or are you asking a question you don't know the answer to?


Well, sort of "Both"! I know that at least some wood has "Tannin". AND I now that the Oaks and The White Oaks (Live Oak especially) have a "Waxy Substance" in their "Tyloses". So, I have been going along for decades "Knowing" this. BUT then the thought occured to me "What in the Heck is this Stuff?"
What is the chemical composition of this "Stuff"?(Tannin and Waxy Substance)? AND is this "Stuff" what is turning purple?
Damned if I know!
 Steve


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## Kevin

The height of the ICLO is what it has going for it too.


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## Kevin

Steve there's a few easy ways to measure the height and get it pretty dang close. I'll post them tonight when i het home.


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## Kevin

This method looks crude but it works and will get it close enough. There's an app to do this with your phone that is quite accurate but this broomstick (or any stick) is also very accurate.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> This method looks crude but it works and will get it close enough. There's an app to do this with your phone that is quite accurate but this broomstick (or any stick) is also very accurate.


 Well OK, Pie Are Square OR is that Pie are Round. With this method, A stacking stick and "Stepping it Off" is going to be pretty close. What about the crown circumference?
Steve
PS My phone does not have that APP. I have a dumb phone and a dumber operator.

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## Cross Sawmill

barry richardson said:


> There is a big old American Elm in my home town in Missouri that I always thought might be some kind of record, most of them got wiped out with Dutch Elm disease, which reduced the competition a lot I imagine. This one escaped it, is huge and robust. Nothing like the size if these Live Oaks though. I will have to take some measurements on it next time I go back there...


 barry,
If this is a healthy American Elm, I wonder if someone could root cuttings off of it?
Steve


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## robert flynt

Kevin, there is a live oak, on a college campus in Long Beach MS, called the friendship oak which is pretty massive.


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## SENC

It hit me driving back from Virginia that we could estimate relative tree sizes by superimposing images using humans as reference points. Since we have images of both ICLO and Angel Oak with people, I used them... resizing them so the individuals heights are approximately right, at least relative to each other. Whaddayathink, WBrothers?




Has the diminutive leprechaun been using optical illusion to pull a fast one on us?

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## ripjack13

We need to find another leprechaun instead of the lady....well...unless Kevin wants to put on his tutu and some stilettos....

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## Kevin

Her burls are a little bigger than mine so it's not a fair comparison.

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## Cross Sawmill

SENC said:


> It hit me driving back from Virginia that we could estimate relative tree sizes by superimposing images using humans as reference points. Since we have images of both ICLO and Angel Oak with people, I used them... resizing them so the individuals heights are approximately right, at least relative to each other. Whaddayathink, WBrothers?
> View attachment 79074
> 
> Has the diminutive leprechaun been using optical illusion to pull a fast one on us?


 Image comparison of sizes have a lot of factors. For example, if you want to make something appear bigger, try to put it in the foreground as much as possible IE The person in the picture stands behind it. If you want to make something appear smaller put the object in the background as much as possible. You can take a photo that makes a house appear shorter than a person. Look at the house in The Seven Sisters picture. 
Try this "Trick", take a picture of the end of a big log with a person standing even with the end,have the person move back 3 or 4 feet and take another one. Make sure the camera is the same distance and height from the end of the log. Take a picture while the camera person is sitting on the ground or from a ladder. Even without photo shop, you can change it a lot.
Photo analysis would be useful IF you had an object/person of a Known Height at a Known distance from your subject/tree with your camera at a known height/distance from your subject/tree.
In the case of The Iron City Live Oak, the photos that were posted by Kevin had the people in the foreground IE Terry was probably Thirty feet in front of the tree and Kevin and I were also in the foreground by around Ten feet.
This situation "Rigged" the photos to make The Iron City Live Oak appear smaller(IF that is possible).
I noticed that the camera angle/perspective was going to make The Iron City Live Oak appear smaller but we were on a limited time adventure, so I did not say anything. So, Yes , the photos of The Iron City Live Oak did have "Perspective Warping" , BUT it made the tree appear smaller than it actually is.
Steve


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## Cross Sawmill

SENC said:


> It hit me driving back from Virginia that we could estimate relative tree sizes by superimposing images using humans as reference points. Since we have images of both ICLO and Angel Oak with people, I used them... resizing them so the individuals heights are approximately right, at least relative to each other. Whaddayathink, WBrothers?
> View attachment 79074
> 
> Has the diminutive leprechaun been using optical illusion to pull a fast one on us?


 Well, Looking at the photos again and knowing what the roots around The Iron City Live Oak looks like it appears that the Angel Oak is not nearly the size of The Iron City Live Oak.
What information did I base that on? Where Kevin is standing, it might appear that he is "Photo Shopped" to be 18'' shorter. I know that one foot was elevated on a root and the lower side foot was nearer ground level. So probably his DBH (Chest Height) was close to the same as the lady's DBH(Chest Height). Also I believe Kevin was more in the foreground, which makes the Iron City Live Oak appear smaller.
Still The Iron City Live Oak looks to me to be much bigger.
Steve


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## SENC

Cross Sawmill said:


> Well, Looking at the photos again and knowing what the roots around The Iron City Live Oak looks like it appears that the Angel Oak is not nearly the size of The Iron City Live Oak.
> What information did I base that on? Where Kevin is standing, it might appear that he is "Photo Shopped" to be 18'' shorter. I know that one foot was elevated on a root and the lower side foot was nearer ground level. So probably his DBH (Chest Height) was close to the same as the lady's DBH(Chest Height). Also I believe Kevin was more in the foreground, which makes the Iron City Live Oak appear smaller.
> Still The Iron City Live Oak looks to me to be much bigger.
> Steve


Steve- I agree that ICLO looks much larger from the pictures. I was just poking fun at Kevin, who self-proclaims himself as vertically challenged...


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## Cross Sawmill

SENC,
While we are at it, it would be nice to catalog these magnificent works of nature. I had often thought that a person could put a photo album of these magnificent trees together. If the Iron City Live Oak is not the biggest, that is OK, if it is the Biggest that would also be OK . I would still admire and respect the other "Big Live Oaks". On Kevin's Height, I heard Dynamite came in small packages. People come in a lot of different sizes and marketing experts take advantage of this by making their product look bigger or smaller IE using a petite model to make a small car look bigger.
The only way is precision(or as close as we can come) measurements.
Whichever Live Oak wins, it will be the biggest living organism East of The Mississippi river.(I think).
Steve

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## Cross Sawmill

How big is Big? How high is Up? What are the relative merits of Apples and Oranges?
I am still trying to find time to get meaningful measurements of The Iron City Live Oak. I had a customer/friend from The Charleston Area who lived near The Angel Oak down over the past few days. When I told him about The Iron City Live Oak,He was of the believe that The Angel Oak was bigger. When he actually saw The Iron City Live Oak, he was speechless IE about the only thing he said was that The Iron City Live Oak was BIG.
I, so far , have not really found "Scientific" measurements on the other Live Oaks. Not saying it is not out there, just I have not found it.
 Steve
PS A rough diameter of The Iron City Live Oak is 31-32 feet.

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## Kevin

32 foot circumference so about 10 feet diameter as you've noted before. But the Iron City tree supports its own branches - something I haven't seen in any other large LO tree. I can't wait to find out how they come up with the diameters they do on those multi-trunk branches. Seems they probably have to do a DBH on each one. But they can't add them together because that doesn't work with circles. 

So here's the question for the math wizards. Let's say there's a LO tree with 7 branches (trunks I guess they call them) and each branch has a DBH of 1.5 feet. If you add those 7 branches DBHs together you get to about the same DBH as ICLO of 10.5 - which to me don't seem like a fair way to measure. Seven 1.5 foot diameter "trunks" growing out of the same root system are equal as one single 10 foot diameter tree? If that's how they figure it they need to find a better system.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Treecycle Hardwoods

Kevin said:


> 32 foot circumference so about 10 feet diameter as you've noted before. But the Iron City tree supports its own branches - something I haven't seen in any other large LO tree. I can't wait to find out how they come up with the diameters they do on those multi-trunk branches. Seems they probably have to do a DBH on each one. But they can't add them together because that doesn't work with circles.
> 
> So here's the question for the math wizards. Let's say there's a LO tree with 7 branches (trunks I guess they call them) and each branch has a DBH of 1.5 feet. If you add those 7 branches DBHs together you get to about the same DBH as ICLO of 10.5 - which to me don't seem like a fair way to measure. Seven 1.5 foot diameter "trunks" growing out of the same root system are equal as one single 10 foot diameter tree? If that's how they figure it they need to find a better system.


The answer is..... Hard to determine. I did my calculations using a 1" thick slice from each of the 7 trunks and the 10' diameter trunk and came up with 1781 cubic inches from the 7 trunks and 11309 cubic inches from the 10 foot diameter trunk

Here is what I did. Pi r^2= the area of a circle. Multiply that by 1" thick and you will get the volume in cubic inches for the 1" disk. I did this for the 7 trunks and then for the 1 big one. The numbers are above and you can see the 10' diameter tree has 6-7X the material in the 1" slice. Knowing the metrics of the formula they use to determine the biggest tree is some pretty valuable information. IT may in fact be a better equation for figuring something like this out. They may also have a point system where the different components are each scored and then added together to come up with the "biggest"

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## Kevin

Treecycle Hardwoods said:


> They may also have a point system where the different components are each scored and then added together to come up with the "biggest"



Yes I'm vary familiar with how the point system works. Steve called me a bit ago and had me on the phone while he measured the tree. It is MASSIVE. I underestimated the height when I guessed it at 100' I'll just leave it at that and let Steve fill y'all in. 

Steve thanks for letting be there when you measured it.


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## Kevin

I've just run the numbers of the Iron City Live Oak compared to the published numbers of the reigning national champion Seven Sisters. The main thing that will keep the Seven Sisters from being dethroned is her published circumference. They have it as 467 inches. What we don't know is how they come up with that number. If they measure around all the trunks at breast height and come up with that, then it seems highly unfair. Maybe that's why they only use circumference of inches and not diameter of trunks when it comes to multi-trunk trees. 

Her total points are listed as 570. That number is reached by adding trunk circumference in inches + overall height + 1/4 of the average crown spread. Don't ask me why they use 1/4 I have never found an explanation - this further penalizes larger trees! A crown of 140/4 = 35 but a crown of 150/4 = 37.5! More BS. Using the formula for the ICLO she comes in at between 520 to 550 points depending on where they claim DBH will be on her. 

I don't see them allowing ICLO to overtake Seven Sisters because they aren't going to acknowledge that ICLO is obviously more massive (by far). She is *much* taller and has a bigger crown and has much more timber in her (volume) but because she has seven trunks spread out helter skelter taking up all kinds of space, they claim she is bigger. It's hocus pocus. 

Steve is going to nominate her anyway and we'll see what we can do to change city hall lol. We know how that'll turn out.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kevin

I got that wrong the bigger crown spread has a little advantage with the 1/4 scale doh.

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## SENC

Kevin said:


> I got that wrong the bigger crown spread has a little advantage with the 1/4 scale doh.


I wasn't going to say anything. I promise.


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## Kevin

SENC said:


> I wasn't going to say anything. I promise.



Actually I'm going to reverse my reversal. The 1/4 scale DOES penalize the larger tree and this was my initial thought.

Seven Sisters 140 points
ICLO 150 points. 
Advantage ICLO by 10 points. 

Seven Sister 140/4 = 35 points.
ICLO 150/4 = 37.5 points. 
Advantage ICLO by 2.5 points.

So I say it penalizes the larger trees.


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin and all Other interested Parties,
Common sense dictates (oh crap, people trying to use logic and facts AGAIN) that the true measure of a tree's size would be cubic volume IE cubic inches or cubic something. How to accurately calculate that, I do not know. How to look at trees and pictures of trees to estimate/guesstimate size, I feel like I know a bit. I have cut short log pulp wood. Bought and sold logs on visual estimates. Looked at and cut down a lot of trees. All of these jobs depended on visual size estimates to determine my pay so it was/is important.
Looking at the photos/statistics of the other Big Live Oaks, I believe in terms of total volume The Iron City Live Oak is the biggest. I am going to work to verify that. I welcome anyone who has information that disproves that.
As Kevin and I both are very interested in the wonders of nature called trees, We want the information, bigger/not bigger/ how many are bigger etc?
As Kevin and I were discussing there seems to be some problems with the method used to calculate size.
We need to reconcile this or just start our own classification society. You Know, go to Yard Sales-----Get Medals---- Award Them to Ourselves.(only partly kidding).
Anyway, Here are approximate numbers--DBH Ten Plus Feet ---- Height One Hundred Twenty Plus Feet------Crown Span One Hundred Forty Plus Feet---- Trunk Length Twelve to Sixteen Feet (Guessing)------ Diameter at Top of Trunk (Guessing) Fourteen Feet. A heck of a lot of BIG Branches.
I sort of "Know" it is the biggest, but if I am proven wrong, I am OK with that. If the system used to calculate size is "Goofy", I am not obligated to use it.
Steve

Reactions: Great Post 1 | Funny 1


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## Kevin

According the American Forests Champion Tree Measuring Guidelines on page 8 and 9, measuring single trees that have multiple trunks, cannot include any space. Here's the rules:



 



 

Apparently the 7 sisters falls under rule #2. Here's the link to the entire manual.


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## Kevin

According to their own rules on page 14, Seven Sisters is not even a single tree. Here's their rule book that says you must follow the pith to determine if a tree is several trees growing together or several trunks growing from one common trunk. 


 

Here is one view of Seven Sisters and I followed the piths of 3 of the trees on this side:


 

Further research uncovered this blog. Evidently we aren't the only ones that have suggested SS is not a single tree. Not until 1976 did the Live Oak confab somehow talk the feds into saying it _"has a single root system"_ in essence going against their own rules of not allowing multi-pith trees. Further, without that "contested certification" there really is no close challenger to ICLO. Politics are everywhere.


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin,Treecycle and Everybody else interested,
Pie Are Square whereby PIE is 3.14 ARE (for Ten Feet Trunk) is Five Feet Squared is 78 plus square feet. Pie Are Square whereby PIE is 3.14 ARE is (for Two Foot Trunk) is One Squared is 3.14 square feet times Seven Equals (Drum Roll) Twenty Two Square Feet. AND that ain't counting trunk height.
"DEY"ain't put a lot of thought into measuring Live Oak. Dem Mint Julips might have clouded their judgement.
But who are we going to believe, The National Register or "Our Lying Eyes"?
Steve
PS A square foot has 144 square inches.

Reactions: Great Post 1 | Funny 1


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## Cross Sawmill

Cross Sawmill said:


> How big is Big? How high is Up? What are the relative merits of Apples and Oranges?
> I am still trying to find time to get meaningful measurements of The Iron City Live Oak. I had a customer/friend from The Charleston Area who lived near The Angel Oak down over the past few days. When I told him about The Iron City Live Oak,He was of the believe that The Angel Oak was bigger. When he actually saw The Iron City Live Oak, he was speechless IE about the only thing he said was that The Iron City Live Oak was BIG.
> I, so far , have not really found "Scientific" measurements on the other Live Oaks. Not saying it is not out there, just I have not found it.
> Steve
> PS A rough diameter of The Iron City Live Oak is 31-32 feet.


 Circumference! Circumference! Ten Foot Diameter!


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## Cross Sawmill

Back on them "Square Pies"! A three foot diameter Stem/trunk would have approximately 7 square feet cross section, so 7 three foot diameter stems would total around fifty square feet.
A four foot diameter stem would have around 12.5 square feet, so 7 times would be 87.5.
The Seven Sisters Oak would have to average each stem almost 4 feet diameter to beat the square feet area of a cross section of The Iron City Live Oak (78 square feet).
There is simply no way. The Seven Sisters is not even as big as The Angel Oak (according to Steve).
 Steve


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## Cross Sawmill

All Right, We have ANOTHER Live Oak to add to the "Biggest Live Oak in The World" list. Google "The Village Sentinel/Waycross , Georgia". Well, If they were as big as they say, they would keep talking about it.
Steve

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## robert flynt

We have one in Biloxi that is 35, circumference and 10'diameter with a 127 canopy. It is over 50' height range. we also have the Friendship Oak on a college campus in Long Beach Ms. that around before Columbus Landed.

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## Cross Sawmill

robert flynt said:


> We have one in Biloxi that is 35, circumference and 10'diameter with a 127 canopy. It is over 50' height range. we also have the Friendship Oak on a college campus in Long Beach Ms. that around before Columbus Landed.


 All Right,
Now We are getting somewhere. As Kevin and I said total volume is the real measure. These trees are huge.
Steve


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## Cross Sawmill

To have a meaningful measurement for Live Oak (or any tree), there has to be some sort way to estimate stem/trunk volume. I have been looking at many (some) " ''World Champion'' Live Oak. No one is taking account that a ten foot diameter ---- twelve feet long trunk has a lot more wood(size) than a twelve foot diameter---four feet long trunk.
It is difficult to know the total volume of a tree. It is not so difficult to look at a tree and "Know" which is bigger.
The rules should be written in such a way (Rules Committee?) that it reflects the true size of a tree.
???????????????????? Steve


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## robert flynt

Did some further checking on a tree in East Biloxi and the stats _found are, 35' CHB, 54' height' 125' spread and 10' diameter_

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## HomeBody

For some trees it's normal to have multiple trunks. When they measure Osage around here, multiple trunks are acceptable because that's the way they grow often. I don't know about live oaks, but if a single trunk is normal for them, the seven sisters should be dumped as champion. The IC oak is far more impressive. Gary


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## Cross Sawmill

I appreciate everyone's input on this. 
At this point (I think), we have established that Live Oak are the biggest trees East of the Mississippi . Especially now that all of the Really Big Cypress are gone.
I believe at this point, it is important to figure out what "Big" actually is.
For people to say that The Spooner Live Oak ( owner's preferred name for "The Iron City Live Oak") is bigger but the "Point System" does not reflect that means, to me, that the "System" needs fixing.
Maybe The Spooner Live Oak (ICLO) is in a class of it's own?
I spoke with Terry Dixon,reporter from The Georgia Times Union on St.Simons Island, Ga., who did the article on The Village Sentinel and other Live Oak stories. 
He is going to do a "Lead In" story on The Spooner Live Oak (ICLO) dealing with it's relative size and how Live Oaks are "Judged".
The "Society" can not ignore "The Gorilla in The Room", especially if people keep asking "Are You SURE You can't see that GO---Rilla?".
Since Live Oak are so majestic, We should recognize that they take other forms than Bush/Vine.
????????????Anybody????????????
Steve

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Cross Sawmill

Planted Live Oak (As many of "The World Champions" are)tend to be "Bushes" as almost any tree out by itself will be.
Forest Live Oak will sometimes produce long Stems/Trunks. I have harvested them 38 feet long before the first limb and have reliable reports of 50 feet.
Steve


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin and I have been discussing the rules on Champion Trees.
1- Under the current rules, it takes 4 feet of height to equal 1 inch of circumference. Or over 12 feet of height to equal 1 inch of diameter.
2- For example, a 35 foot circumference ,three foot tall trunk would have 420 points.
3- A 32 foot circumference, 16 foot tall trunk, would have 384 points. Or 36 points less.
4- Which is bigger? Number 2 or number 3?
5- A tree 60 feet tall get 15 points.
6- A tree 150 feet tall gets 38 points. Or 23 more.
7-1'' diameter is equal to over 144'' height.
I am still thinking about this and am studying the rules and implementation of the rules. 
It seems at this point that the "Champion Tree Programs" are focused on and heavily weighted for urban type trees which have large circumference short trunks (most points) wide crowns (second most points and also urban type growth) and by far least points for height .
Every problem has an opportunity for a solution.
Steve

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## TimR

Kevin said:


> Her burls are a little bigger than mine so it's not a fair comparison.

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## SENC

Wouldn't volume, as they used in the middleton oak and senator bald cypress, resolve your concern? Perhaps those that did those measurements would share their technique - or would help with yours.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SENC

Have you two found this forum/bbs?

http://www.ents-bbs.org/index.php

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## Kevin

SENC said:


> Have you two found this forum/bbs?
> 
> http://www.ents-bbs.org/index.php



Henry I browsed the site and it looks like a lot of great info. Not sure where they stand on how champs are currently measured. Gonna spend some more time there when I can. Thanks for the link.


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## SENC

Kevin said:


> Henry I browsed the site and it looks like a lot of great info. Not sure where they stand on how champs are currently measured. Gonna spend some more time there when I can. Thanks for the link.


Reading through a handful of threads (like you, for some reason I find this stuff fascinating), it appears to me that the folks who "write the rules" are active discussion leaders and participants. I did search for seven sisters on that forum, and though I only followed a few links there appeared little if any doubt the 7S is a multitrunk tree and as such discounted.

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## Cross Sawmill

SENC said:


> Wouldn't volume, as they used in the middleton oak and senator bald cypress, resolve your concern? Perhaps those that did those measurements would share their technique - or would help with yours.


I saw the site on "The Middleton Oak" which unfortunately is no longer a contending tree because of storm damage.
It listed a "Volume" estimate , which I was not aware of.
But, Yes, that would be the fair to do a total volume estimate for any contested category of tree.
Who can do them?
Steve


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## SENC

Check out the link I posted... lots on measurement there... also here is a link to their measurement .pdf
http://www.nativetreesociety.org/measure/Tree_Measuring_Guidelines-revised1.pdf

And here is the link to a sub-forum on the bbs that includes the threads on the active "live oak project":
http://www.ents-bbs.org/viewforum.php?f=9

I think Larry Tucei is the guy you need to try to come see and measure ICLO.


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## Cross Sawmill

SENC said:


> Check out the link I posted... lots on measurement there... also here is a link to their measurement .pdf
> http://www.nativetreesociety.org/measure/Tree_Measuring_Guidelines-revised1.pdf
> 
> And here is the link to a sub-forum on the bbs that includes the threads on the active "live oak project":
> http://www.ents-bbs.org/viewforum.php?f=9
> 
> I think Larry Tucei is the guy you need to try to come see and measure ICLO.


 Well,
I looked at both links. 
The second with the question about forest trees! They WILL grow "Big and Tall".

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SENC

Cross Sawmill said:


> Well,
> I looked at both links.
> The second with the question about forest trees! They WILL grow "Big and Tall".


I agree, Steve, and given the relative lack of responses would bet that not many like yours have been documented fully. In my mind, that would make yours even more interesting, I'd think. I'd suggest posting pics and the dimensions you know as a new post in that sub-forum and asking for guidance. I noted in another thread that Larry Tucie mentioned (very recently) that he'd been meaning to get over to Waycross GA to measure the current state champ, so maybe that combined with yours would provoke a trip.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Cross Sawmill

SENC said:


> I agree, Steve, and given the relative lack of responses would bet that not many like yours have been documented fully. In my mind, that would make yours even more interesting, I'd think. I'd suggest posting pics and the dimensions you know as a new post in that sub-forum and asking for guidance. I noted in another thread that Larry Tucie mentioned (very recently) that he'd been meaning to get over to Waycross GA to measure the current state champ, so maybe that combined with yours would provoke a trip.


 Henry,
Thanks to the interested members on this site,especially Kevin, We seem to be generating a lot of interest. 
Since this is "Our" thing, with all due respect for Larry Tucie, he needs to come to our forum as "We" also imagine ourselves as experts.
I(Steve Cross) am recognized by many people in the Wooden Ship Building/Wooden Yacht Repair business as the top "Working Knowledge" Live Oak person.
One of the points for this thread was to demonstrate which is The Biggest Live Oak. Everyone knows what my belief is.
The Spooner Live Oak is 250 miles closer to Larry and if he contacted me, I would show it to him. After that he would no longer feel the need to go to Waycross.
Once again, I am glad everyone is participating and if I am proven wrong, I will be happy about it.(but it ain't gonna happen).
Steve
PS The name of the Live Oak in Waycross is The Village Sentinel.


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## Kevin

Steve, we don't disagree on very much, but sometimes the best way to catch a fly is with sugar not vinegar. The point of the thread is not a pissing contest, but to give the Spooner Live Oak its due recognition. It doesn't matter to me the who or the how or the why, as long as in the end, the facts are not only known, but recognized and recorded in the record books accurately. I've already registered at the Native Tree Society and am awaiting approval in order to post. My intention is to bring this thread to the attention of Ed Frank, whom I believe is the administrator there. But more importantly to bring the Spooner Live Oak to his attention not my forum nor even this thread. 

We can further our aims of getting the Spooner Live Oak in the record book where we believe it belongs by working with those that can help us accomplish that. Let's not alienate them before they even have a chance to realize they should be on our side!


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> Steve, we don't disagree on very much, but sometimes the best way to catch a fly is with sugar not vinegar. The point of the thread is not a pissing contest, but to give the Spooner Live Oak its due recognition. It doesn't matter to me the who or the how or the why, as long as in the end, the facts are not only known, but recognized and recorded in the record books accurately. I've already registered at the Native Tree Society and am awaiting approval in order to post. My intention is to bring this thread to the attention of Ed Frank, whom I believe is the administrator there. But more importantly to bring the Spooner Live Oak to his attention not my forum nor even this thread.
> 
> We can further our aims of getting the Spooner Live Oak in the record book where we believe it belongs by working with those that can help us accomplish that. Let's not alienate them before they even have a chance to realize they should be on our side!


Kevin,
As we (I) know, there are problems with documentation on Live Oak which causes a lot of confusion .
My point was not to really disrespect anyone (and certainly not call an informed discussion a "pissing contest").
The Spooner Live Oak is something that will stand for itself.
If people are so sensitive to questions about rules and procedures,that tells you something there.
My concern was it is so easy to be misunderstood on a forum that I did not want to engage elsewhere right now.
My reason to briefly state my qualifications was not just to brag,but to give people a chance to research and verify or disprove them.
Since my intentions are to also ask "The Other Live Oak Experts" what their qualifications are, I figured I should go first.
Reading some of the posts and discussions on the other forums, I can tell there is a big hole in information.
So if there is a tactful way to tell someone they are flat out wrong, I would like to hear it.
Maybe it could go like this; Well I know that You misinterpreted screwed up rules and named The Seven Sisters a World Champion when it does not even qualify, but that's OK.
OR These decision makers could be called out and demoted.
Did the people who certified The Seven Sisters have names? Just wondering?
I like to respect everyone, but if this (Incompetence) is allowed and encouraged, I am certainly not going to validate it by "Playing Along".
We owe it to the people who want to be informed not to promote misinformation.
Live Oak is such a magnificent tree, that it should be properly documented. The Spooner Live Oak is a magnificent example, but the fact that the overall species is misunderstood so badly is what needs fixing.
This could easily be a days long ,or longer, discussion for a "Rules Committee" that were actually present.
If these "Live Oak" groups are going to represent themselves as experts, make expert statements and if someone questions them,clarify them.
So, I know saying that is going to make me a "Target", good. Maybe people will verify their statements.
If I say something wrong about Live Oak, I will let someone video me doing a "Happy Dance". (and I can't even dance).
I am not sure if it is OK to post phone numbers, but if somebody wants to talk, they can ask for my number via private conversation(mod edit in red to remove personal contact info)
Steve
PS The three most important words an "Expert" wants to hear is "You are Right". When an "Expert" is giving a "Learned Dissertation" and somebody looks over and says "Bull S***" , they can not hardly take it.
PPS I consider Myself an expert.


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## Cross Sawmill

SENC said:


> I agree, Steve, and given the relative lack of responses would bet that not many like yours have been documented fully. In my mind, that would make yours even more interesting, I'd think. I'd suggest posting pics and the dimensions you know as a new post in that sub-forum and asking for guidance. I noted in another thread that Larry Tucie mentioned (very recently) that he'd been meaning to get over to Waycross GA to measure the current state champ, so maybe that combined with yours would provoke a trip.


 Henry,
A bad choice of word combination on my part.
Obviously Larry Tucie is a dedicated person who has done a lot to promote Live Oak in a scientific manner and I respect that.
And I also respect your efforts to assist.
When I read your post, I had just briefly reviewed the site you recommended and was preoccupied with issues on there.
Larry would be a good person to get involved and if he contacted me, I would take him to the tree and assist him.
I would also let him do his assessment of size.
Everyone I have taken so far, I have told it was not possible to over state this tree and after seeing it they agreed.
(Personal contact info removed per forum rules)


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## Kevin

Cross Sawmill said:


> Kevin,
> As we (I) know, there are problems with documentation on Live Oak which causes a lot of confusion .
> My point was not to really disrespect anyone (and certainly not call an informed discussion a "pissing contest").
> The Spooner Live Oak is something that will stand for itself.
> If people are so sensitive to questions about rules and procedures,that tells you something there.
> My concern was it is so easy to be misunderstood on a forum that I did not want to engage elsewhere right now.
> My reason to briefly state my qualifications was not just to brag,but to give people a chance to research and verify or disprove them.
> Since my intentions are to also ask "The Other Live Oak Experts" what their qualifications are, I figured I should go first.
> Reading some of the posts and discussions on the other forums, I can tell there is a big hole in information.
> So if there is a tactful way to tell someone they are flat out wrong, I would like to hear it.
> Maybe it could go like this; Well I know that You misinterpreted screwed up rules and named The Seven Sisters a World Champion when it does not even qualify, but that's OK.
> OR These decision makers could be called out and demoted.
> Did the people who certified The Seven Sisters have names? Just wondering?
> I like to respect everyone, but if this (Incompetence) is allowed and encouraged, I am certainly not going to validate it by "Playing Along".
> We owe it to the people who want to be informed not to promote misinformation.
> Live Oak is such a magnificent tree, that it should be properly documented. The Spooner Live Oak is a magnificent example, but the fact that the overall species is misunderstood so badly is what needs fixing.
> This could easily be a days long ,or longer, discussion for a "Rules Committee" that were actually present.
> If these "Live Oak" groups are going to represent themselves as experts, make expert statements and if someone questions them,clarify them.
> So, I know saying that is going to make me a "Target", good. Maybe people will verify their statements.
> If I say something wrong about Live Oak, I will let someone video me doing a "Happy Dance". (and I can't even dance).
> I am not sure if it is OK to post phone numbers, but if somebody wants to talk, they can ask for my number via private conversation(mod edit in red to remove personal contact info)
> Steve
> PS The three most important words an "Expert" wants to hear is "You are Right". When an "Expert" is giving a "Learned Dissertation" and somebody looks over and says "Bull S***" , they can not hardly take it.
> PPS I consider Myself an expert.



Steve we don't have any disagreement on anything you said there.


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## SENC

No offense taken, Steve.

Just to be clear, I have no stake in this. I am NOT an expert nor have I studied big trees nor did I know anything about ENTS, NTS, or Larry before this discussion. I only started digging around because of the interest you and Kevin sparked. So, I don't know much other than what I've read. But, my impression from that forum is that there are truly knowledgeable "experts" actively participating there and grappling with some of the same questions you and Kevin have posed. My sense, reading multiple threads, is that most would probably agree 7S, if a champion, would be a champion as a multistemmed tree (or otherwise asterisked). If your tree is as big as it appears in the pictures, my bet is you won't find any detractors over there - and probably lots of interest. I'd just bet few know of its existence. I would not go in with both guns blazing... I think you'll get better response with a more innocent approach.

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## SENC

Good post at ENTS... will be watching.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Cross Sawmill

SENC said:


> No offense taken, Steve.
> 
> Just to be clear, I have no stake in this. I am NOT an expert nor have I studied big trees nor did I know anything about ENTS, NTS, or Larry before this discussion. I only started digging around because of the interest you and Kevin sparked. So, I don't know much other than what I've read. But, my impression from that forum is that there are truly knowledgeable "experts" actively participating there and grappling with some of the same questions you and Kevin have posed. My sense, reading multiple threads, is that most would probably agree 7S, if a champion, would be a champion as a multistemmed tree (or otherwise asterisked). If your tree is as big as it appears in the pictures, my bet is you won't find any detractors over there - and probably lots of interest. I'd just bet few know of its existence. I would not go in with both guns blazing... I think you'll get better response with a more innocent approach.


 Henry,
I understand Your and Kevin's concern about tact. 
This, as I understand it, is an attempt at a scientific (?) approach to tree measurement.
As far as the symbolism of going in with "Both Guns Blazing", well that is not my style.

They are making a lot of statements that do not reflect facts and to me it is about correct action first. The Spooner Tree may or may not be biggest and that has never been my point. If a group is going to appoint themselves as experts and can not tolerate questions and first hand observations without becoming overly defensive ,that is not very good.
As far as being "Innocent", I really do not know exactly what that means. If it means to portray myself as uninformed, that is not happening as I feel I have earned my right to share what I have learned. Just as they feel they have earned their right.
Keep in the loop on this.
Steve

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kevin

I introduced myself and Steve's tree (Spooner's tree but hey) and invited any interested parties to come play. They seem like a great group of guys over there. Here is the thread.


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## Kevin

SENC said:


> Good post at ENTS... will be watching.



Henry thanks again for pointing us to that forum.


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## Kevin

Steve make sure to click the link I provided to my thread at Native Tree Society BBS. It looks like 'ol Henry @SENC put us onto the right bunch of guys over there. They are working to change the rules. Here's a quote from the co-founder of the site:



dbhguru said:


> Kevin,
> 
> Welcome aboard. You've also found the site that includes the folks who are revising the rules for American Forests National Register of Big Trees that will dethrone lot of the multi-stem trees. Lots to talk about, but that can wait. BTW, Ray Asselin and other members are also woodworkers. Lots of diversity on the list. Again, welcome aboard.
> 
> Bob



In case you missed the link, here it is again.

http://ents-bbs.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=7080

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## Kevin

An interview with myself.

Kevin: What is the largest living organism on earth?

Kevin: The Quaking Aspen grove in Utah.

Kevin: Is it a single tree?

Kevin: Of course not. That's a silly question. It is many trees.

Kevin: What makes it the largest living organism then?

Kevin: All the trees share the same root system.

Kevin: But it is widely accepted in academia and by tree experts in various fields of study such as dendrology that it is not a single tree?

Kevin: Of course. To call the Quaking Aspen grove in Utah as single tree, you would have to be tripping or smoking crack.

Kevin: So, is the Quaking Aspen grove in Utah the National Champion of Quaking Aspen trees?

Kevin: No, the national Champion Quaking Aspen is in Arizona.

Kevin: Where is the official current Live Oak National Champion?

Kevin: In Louisiana. They call it Seven Sisters?

Kevin: Why do they call it that?

Kevin: Because it is seven stems and at least four separate trees all growing together.

Kevin: How can that be a National Champion _'tree'_ instead of several non-national champion _'trees'_ plural, like the Quaking Aspens in Utah?

Kevin: I don't know. The only reason the Seven Sisters is the National Champion is because someone, somewhere, got someone to say all the trees that make up the Seven Sisters "tree' share the same root system, just like the Quaking Aspens in Utah.

Kevin: But I thought the National Champion Quaking Aspen was in Arizona?

Kevin: It is.

Kevin: So where is the National Champion Live Oak?

Kevin: Right outside of Iron City Georgia.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## SENC

Glad I didn't steer you wrong! Ida been in hot water. What's that saying about a blind squirrel and a nut?

Reactions: +Karma 1


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin, Henry and all interested parties.
I now feel that things are going in the right (correct) direction. After reading the posts at ENTS, I believe this tree (Spooner Live Oak) is going to be fairly and accurately measured.But more importantly,a lot of misinformation that exists on Live Oak will be corrected.
This misinformation exists up to and including the Universities level. Their attitude seems to be "Who are you going to believe? Us or Your Lying Eyes?
My patience was wearing fairly thin after years of foolish stonewalling by "Informed Authority Figures" IE The Seven Sisters Fiasco among others.
Sooooo!!!! Now!!!!!!! Onward through the fog!
Steve

Reactions: Like 3


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> An interview with myself.
> 
> Kevin: What is the largest living organism on earth?
> 
> Kevin: The Quaking Aspen grove in Utah.
> 
> Kevin: Is it a single tree?
> 
> Kevin: Of course not. That's a silly question. It is many trees.
> 
> Kevin: What makes it the largest living organism then?
> 
> Kevin: All the trees share the same root system.
> 
> Kevin: But it is widely accepted in academia and by tree experts in various fields of study such as dendrology that it is not a single tree?
> 
> Kevin: Of course. To call the Quaking Aspen grove in Utah as single tree, you would have to be tripping or smoking crack.
> 
> Kevin: So, is the Quaking Aspen grove in Utah the National Champion of Quaking Aspen trees?
> 
> Kevin: No, the national Champion Quaking Aspen is in Arizona.
> 
> Kevin: Where is the official current Live Oak National Champion?
> 
> Kevin: In Louisiana. They call it Seven Sisters?
> 
> Kevin: Why do they call it that?
> 
> Kevin: Because it is seven stems and at least four separate trees all growing together.
> 
> Kevin: How can that be a National Champion _'tree'_ instead of several non-national champion _'trees'_ plural, like the Quaking Aspens in Utah?
> 
> Kevin: I don't know. The only reason the Seven Sisters is the National Champion is because someone, somewhere, got someone to say all the trees that make up the Seven Sisters "tree' share the same root system, just like the Quaking Aspens in Utah.
> 
> Kevin: But I thought the National Champion Quaking Aspen was in Arizona?
> 
> Kevin: It is.
> 
> Kevin: So where is the National Champion Live Oak?
> 
> Kevin: Right outside of Iron City Georgia.


 UHHHHHH!!! You meant Heavyweight Champion of the "World"!!!!!!!!

Reactions: +Karma 1


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## NYWoodturner

Nice interview Kevins 

I just tried interviewing myself at the dinner table. Gail thinks I'm nuts

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | +Karma 1


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## Kevin

NYWoodturner said:


> Gail thinks I'm nuts



That's not exactly true. You think you are not nuts, but she knows you are.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


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## Cross Sawmill

Hey everybody, Me again
I went to Thomasville , Georgia yesterday to look at their "Big Live Oak" which is a very interesting looking tree. It sprawls on the ground and has more cable bracing than a Wright Flyer. It is huge,but no where near as big as the Spooner Live Oak.
What was interesting was that many of the streets were lined with long stem (tall trunk) Live Oak. Thomasville is a famous Art and Social destination and the streets were filled with people. 
How anyone that represents themselves as an informed person can say that the "Bush" form of Live Oak is the only common form escapes Me.
Steve


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## Cross Sawmill

Cross Sawmill said:


> Hey everybody, Me again
> I went to Thomasville , Georgia yesterday to look at their "Big Live Oak" which is a very interesting looking tree. It sprawls on the ground and has more cable bracing than a Wright Flyer. It is huge,but no where near as big as the Spooner Live Oak.
> What was interesting was that many of the streets were lined with long stem (tall trunk) Live Oak. Thomasville is a famous Art and Social destination and the streets were filled with people.
> How anyone that represents themselves as an informed person can say that the "Bush" form of Live Oak is the only common form escapes Me.
> Steve


 I know the answer! Factoids ! What in the heck is a Factoid? It is statements that "Informed Authority Figures" make that nobody does or can verify. Example; Every Honey Bee that leaves it's hive always returns to the same hive. I believe that might be true. My question ? How has anyone verified that? How?
Another Factoid ! Live Oak is rare, endangered and "Protected". Would the person that said that show us their research? OR are they possibly repeating "Factoids". 
A common behavior of incompetent people is to be so incompetent as to not realize they are incompetent.
The people that named The Seven Sisters Live Oak the Champion were, I believe, dealing with Factoids. Maybe (probably not) if someone knew their names, they could be interviewed and they could have the chance to give their reasoning on The Seven Sisters decision.
Steve


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## DKMD

I love it... Steve answers his own questions by replying to his own posts! Kevin interviews himself, and Scott talks to himself at the dinner table... Yep, we're a pretty normal bunch!

As for the rarity of live oaks, we were in New Orleans a few weeks ago, and they were all over the place.

Did you shoot any pictures of the trees in Thomasville?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Cross Sawmill

DKMD said:


> I love it... Steve answers his own questions by replying to his own posts! Kevin interviews himself, and Scott talks to himself at the dinner table... Yep, we're a pretty normal bunch!
> 
> As for the rarity of live oaks, we were in New Orleans a few weeks ago, and they were all over the place.
> 
> Did you shoot any pictures of the trees in Thomasville?


 I tried to take some photos, but I had a lousy sun angle. I am still going to get my wife to download them and see. As this is a famous tree there should be some photos online google "Big Tree Thomasville".
I was always told that if one wanted an intelligent conversation , just talk to yourself.
Roger Spooner, the owner of The Iron City Live Oak (It is BIG enough to have two Names),said that We were going to say it is the biggest until someone proves us wrong.
Steve

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kevin

Steve we've already got some volunteers to come measure the tree. One of them - Will Blozan - was the lead climber that did the volume measuring for the Middleton Oak. He seems genuinely enthusiastic about getting the Spooner Oak in the books where it belongs. He thinks the American Forests guys (the big tree register people) might help fund the project. I don't know what all is involved in "funding" the measuring of a tree though. Maybe to cover travel expenses etc. I will see if Will will educate me on this.

Reactions: Way Cool 1


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## Kevin

I just heard back from Will. I asked him if it was cool to share his PM from over there on the open forum here so everyone who is interested can get educated right along with me, and he said that would be great. I have since traded some other PMs with him but this one is the most relevant thus far:



Will Blozan said:


> Kevin,
> 
> Ideally, with a team of climbers the tree could be measured in a long day. Keep in mind this would be a volume-only determination, not a mapping. The aerial team would gather the data needed for the upper crown and the lower trunk would be done via photo point cloud mapping.
> 
> Expenses such a travel, food, lodging would be great. Again, I think AF could pitch in for this event. Of course, permission to access the tree and climb it would be needed... My team uses non-invasive techniques and no harm to the tree would incur.
> 
> I am happy to provide more details as needed. Due to location, workload and weather a late fall early winter climb would work well.
> 
> My email- (xxxxxxxxxxxx)
> 
> Will



Steve, I will give you all his contact information. I will be sitting by as a spectator pretty much from now on but I am really excited to see this go forward. I do strongly encourage you to register on their forum and become involved with them over there. It can only help your cause immensely by doing so and in my not so humble opinion it could keep things going a lot slower and perhaps even bumpier if you do not. I am sure you will have no trouble deciding what to do either way on your own but you know me I'm going to share my opinion too.

Thanks for letting me be involved to what extent I have here in the beginning but time for me to pass the baton fully to you. If I can be of any help in any way you got me on speed dial just as I do you.

Reactions: Way Cool 2


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## SENC

I'd just like to watch the climb... sounds super cool. I'll bring a cooler of adult beverages and an extra lawn chair.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cross Sawmill

Cross Sawmill said:


> I tried to take some photos, but I had a lousy sun angle. I am still going to get my wife to download them and see. As this is a famous tree there should be some photos online google "Big Tree Thomasville".
> I was always told that if one wanted an intelligent conversation , just talk to yourself.
> Roger Spooner, the owner of The Iron City Live Oak (It is BIG enough to have two Names),said that We were going to say it is the biggest until someone proves us wrong.
> Steve





Kevin said:


> Steve we've already got some volunteers to come measure the tree. One of them - Will Blozan - was the lead climber that did the volume measuring for the Middleton Oak. He seems genuinely enthusiastic about getting the Spooner Oak in the books where it belongs. He thinks the American Forests guys (the big tree register people) might help fund the project. I don't know what all is involved in "funding" the measuring of a tree though. Maybe to cover travel expenses etc. I will see if Will will educate me on this.


 Kevin,
As the official Spooner Live Oak/ Iron City Live Oak(It IS Big Enough to have Two Names) tree expert/representative/ decision maker/publicist(with your help) and adviser to the Spooner family I ,of course, need clear information and a plan. ''Will'' on the other site said we had our measurements off "By Tens of Feet". In all of my statements, I have said that the measurements were approximate with "Non- Precision" tools.
BUT it ain't off by "Tens of Feet".
Somebody needs to "Get ME on the Horn".
 Steve


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## Cross Sawmill

Cross Sawmill said:


> I tried to take some photos, but I had a lousy sun angle. I am still going to get my wife to download them and see. As this is a famous tree there should be some photos online google "Big Tree Thomasville".
> I was always told that if one wanted an intelligent conversation , just talk to yourself.
> Roger Spooner, the owner of The Iron City Live Oak (It is BIG enough to have two Names),said that We were going to say it is the biggest until someone proves us wrong.
> Steve





Kevin said:


> Steve we've already got some volunteers to come measure the tree. One of them - Will Blozan - was the lead climber that did the volume measuring for the Middleton Oak. He seems genuinely enthusiastic about getting the Spooner Oak in the books where it belongs. He thinks the American Forests guys (the big tree register people) might help fund the project. I don't know what all is involved in "funding" the measuring of a tree though. Maybe to cover travel expenses etc. I will see if Will will educate me on this.


 Kevin,
As the official Spooner Live Oak/ Iron City Live Oak(It IS Big Enough to have Two Names) tree expert/representative/ decision maker/publicist(with your help) and adviser to the Spooner family I ,of course, need clear information and a plan. ''Will'' on the other site said we had our measurements off "By Tens of Feet". In all of my statements, I have said that the measurements were approximate with "Non- Precision" tools.
BUT it ain't off by "Tens of Feet".
Somebody needs to "Get ME on the Horn".
Steve


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin and all interested "Live Oak People",
First if as "Will" said our measurements are "WAY" off "They" need to call me and send one or two people for an initial ground "Guess"."They" can make the determination IF We were looking at The Biggest Live Oak in the world OR maybe it was a spaceship and we just thought it was a BIG Live Oak.
The "Ratios" "Will" referenced, What are they? Where are they listed? Are they "Factoids"?
Steve


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## Cross Sawmill

Skeptics and Nonbelievers,
The "Live Oak Group at ENTS" are skeptics and nonbelievers. 
I , from years of interacting with "Informed Authority Figures" am also a skeptic and non believer that communicating with these "Experts" can be done in mutually respectful manner.
I suggest both of us prove each other wrong.
Steve


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## Kevin

Steve when this sander gets done wearing me out I'll call you in an hour or so. Don't take offense about the guys over at ENTS they are not being disrespectful they are trying to be helpful.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Cross Sawmill

Without "dissing" anybody (???????), this is the group (they said) that implemented and verified the greatest disservice to Live Oak in hist


Kevin said:


> Steve when this sander gets done wearing me out I'll call you in an hour or so. Don't take offense about the guys over at ENTS they are not being disrespectful they are trying to be helpful.


 Kevin,
Thanks again for your hard work on this and all you have done for woodworkers and the science of wood working.
Classification rules are Hot Button issues in general. Tree Classification rules become more "Touchy Feely". When people start dealing/not really dealing with Live Oak Classification some people seem to lose it emotionally.
I do not feel personally upset when people refute what I state. But because of the long standing misunderstandings in Live Oak "Grading", I do not see a problem with asking "Do You Even Know What The Heck You Are Talking About'' ?Or Vice Versa.
So no I am not upset,I just feel that so far (Last 50 Years) this area has not been addressed very well.
The fact that I may or may not have an abrasive personality should not affect Live Oak science.
Steve


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## Kevin

The guys at ENTS are working to change the rules about how multi-stem trees are categorized which will dethrone seven sisters and other other multi-stem Live oaks - the very thing you also seem to desire. You are bringing up topics I don't see how are relevant to the goal. I'm not saying they aren't, I'm just saying I don't see how. Just my opinion I am not asserting my opinions as facts. I am not an expert in this field and have never presented myself as such. 

No one can change the record books of past, they can only work to change them now to make a better and more accurate future list of champions. I hope to see the Spooner LO in the record books where it belongs. It's all laid out before you and practically gift-wrapped. I don't know what else to tell you Steve. Best of luck my friend.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## SENC

As an outsider whose only interest is an appreciation of live oaks, I'm happy that it appears to me from the ENTS thread that all the right people are getting engaged and showing interest. As I suspected, it seems that no-one considered ICLO/Spooner only because none knew about it... and now that they do they seem genuinely enthused about measuring it an learning more. As you've stated several times, the only thing left is to see how it measures up. Cool stuff, and please keep us posted. Can't wait to hear more.

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## Mike1950

SENC said:


> As an outsider whose only interest is an appreciation of live oaks, I'm happy that it appears to me from the ENTS thread that all the right people are getting engaged and showing interest. As I suspected, it seems that no-one considered ICLO/Spooner only because none knew about it... and now that they do they seem genuinely enthused about measuring it an learning more. As you've stated several times, the only thing left is to see how it measures up. Cool stuff, and please keep us posted. Can't wait to hear more.





Kevin said:


> The guys at ENTS are working to change the rules about how multi-stem trees are categorized which will dethrone seven sisters and other other multi-stem Live oaks - the very thing you also seem to desire. You are bringing up topics I don't see how are relevant to the goal. I'm not saying they aren't, I'm just saying I don't see how. Just my opinion I am not asserting my opinions as facts. I am not an expert in this field and have never presented myself as such.
> 
> No one can change the record books of past, they can only work to change them now to make a better and more accurate future list of champions. I hope to see the Spooner LO in the record books where it belongs. It's all laid out before you and practically gift-wrapped. I don't know what else to tell you Steve. Best of luck my friend.




Nice job Kevin and Henry getting this tree into the record keepers spotlight. Will it stop the contention- I doubt it Washington and Ore have a continuous battle Over largest spruce-Doug fir -Big leaf maple and others. I think it is one of those who has the biggest(leave to readers discretion) Battles.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cross Sawmill

Cross Sawmill said:


> Without "dissing" anybody (???????), this is the group (they said) that implemented and verified the greatest disservice to Live Oak in hist
> 
> Kevin,
> Thanks again for your hard work on this and all you have done for woodworkers and the science of wood working.
> Classification rules are Hot Button issues in general. Tree Classification rules become more "Touchy Feely". When people start dealing/not really dealing with Live Oak Classification some people seem to lose it emotionally.
> I do not feel personally upset when people refute what I state. But because of the long standing misunderstandings in Live Oak "Grading", I do not see a problem with asking "Do You Even Know What The Heck You Are Talking About'' ?Or Vice Versa.
> So no I am not upset,I just feel that so far (Last 50 Years) this area has not been addressed very well.
> 
> Steve


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> The guys at ENTS are working to change the rules about how multi-stem trees are categorized which will dethrone seven sisters and other other multi-stem Live oaks - the very thing you also seem to desire. You are bringing up topics I don't see how are relevant to the goal. I'm not saying they aren't, I'm just saying I don't see how. Just my opinion I am not asserting my opinions as facts. I am not an expert in this field and have never presented myself as such.
> 
> No one can change the record books of past, they can only work to change them now to make a better and more accurate future list of champions. I hope to see the Spooner LO in the record books where it belongs. It's all laid out before you and practically gift-wrapped. I don't know what else to tell you Steve. Best of luck my friend.


 Kevin,
Have you noticed that no one has bothered to address me to get my opinion?
Who said We wanted climbers? Not Me!
Who said We wanted a group here without discussing what exactly We were doing? Not Me.
If We (Spooner's) agree to anything, We (Me) needs to know exactly what We are proposing. I already said "Somebody" needs to call me.
The "System" has been broken for a while and I need to discuss this on a technical level. The best way would be in person. Second on the phone.
Steve
PS I had a tree professional there yesterday and he said 110 feet plus tall.


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## Treecycle Hardwoods

Steve using the pythagorean theorem along with some basic trigonometry one could very accurately get the height of the tree. By very accurately I mean I could get you a number within a foot or 2 of the tallest visible leave on the tree. All of the measurements can be done from the ground and then we can figure everything out from there. If you want to explore this option please let me know and I will do my best to talk you thru it.


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## Mike1950

Cross Sawmill said:


> Kevin,
> Have you noticed that no one has bothered to address me to get my opinion?
> Who said We wanted climbers? Not Me!
> Who said We wanted a group here without discussing what exactly We were doing? Not Me.
> If We (Spooner's) agree to anything, We (Me) needs to know exactly what We are proposing. I already said "Somebody" needs to call me.
> The "System" has been broken for a while and I need to discuss this on a technical level. The best way would be in person. Second on the phone.
> Steve
> PS I had a tree professional there yesterday and he said 110 feet plus tall.




seems to me if you REALLY wanted tree judged a little different attitude would be considerably more effective. Seems like to get an honest appraisal of tree size getting someone with no skin in the game would be only fair way.


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## Kevin

Steve,


Cross Sawmill said:


> Kevin,
> Have you noticed that no one has bothered to address me to get my opinion?
> Who said We wanted climbers? Not Me!
> Who said We wanted a group here without discussing what exactly We were doing? Not Me.
> If We (Spooner's) agree to anything, We (Me) needs to know exactly what We are proposing. I already said "Somebody" needs to call me.
> The "System" has been broken for a while and I need to discuss this on a technical level. The best way would be in person. Second on the phone.
> Steve
> PS I had a tree professional there yesterday and he said 110 feet plus tall.




Steve I have made it clear I have withdrawn my participation in order to get out of your way. All I ever tried to do is help you. Again, I wish you all the best I really do but I have nothing more to offer to the discussion.


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## Cross Sawmill

Treecycle Hardwoods said:


> Steve using the pythagorean theorem along with some basic trigonometry one could very accurately get the height of the tree. By very accurately I mean I could get you a number within a foot or 2 of the tallest visible leave on the tree. All of the measurements can be done from the ground and then we can figure everything out from there. If you want to explore this option please let me know and I will do my best to talk you thru it.


 Greg,
Thank you for making a suggestion that makes sense. As a friend and official representative of the Spooner Family, I do not take that task lightly. This is likely the biggest Live Oak in the world and the point here is that the rule system is not working and the educational system on Live Oak is not working. The Spooner Tree just happens to be our "Flag Ship".
People can take this statement however they choose to. I, Steve Cross, believe I have more practical experience and have spent more time around Live Oak than all of the "Experts" at ENTS put together. Hey, research it and disprove it.
Oh well, back on Live Oak and setting the record a little straighter.
Whoever the person at ENTS that said they would "Climb" with a "Team", Well, have you ever heard of asking the "In Charge" person?
Does this person think perhaps it is bad form to say a 120 foot estimate looks like 75 feet.
So enough off topic rambling.
I would appreciate this help with measuring and believe it is a sensible place to start.
Thanks, Steve


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## Cross Sawmill

Mike1950 said:


> seems to me if you REALLY wanted tree judged a little different attitude would be considerably more effective. Seems like to get an honest appraisal of tree size getting someone with no skin in the game would be only fair way.


 Mike,
How do You figure ENTS (I assume that is who You are referencing) has no "Skin In The Game". Any "Guess" what the economic impact the "Seven Sisters" decision had?
Steve


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## Mike1950

Cross Sawmill said:


> Mike,
> How do You figure ENTS (I assume that is who You are referencing) has no "Skin In The Game". Any "Guess" what the economic impact the "Seven Sisters" decision had?
> Steve



I will not come back to this thread but I should have worded it differently - It is obvious to me that you in no way are a neutral party but want the rules your way. Not quite how it works in my opinion but good luck.


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## Kevin

Steve, I feel bad that you do not value friendships any more than you obviously do. YOU have been calling ME 2 to 5 times a day about this and I have welcomed your calls and until very recently enjoyed them. But you have misrepresented some things and taken some things out of context that we discussed obviously and put them in print here. Even the several times I tried to back out of this saying that you didn't need any more help from me, you always came back with the same reply: _"This tree is big enough for two experts."_ At no time have I presented myself as an expert in the area of measuring a tree. Nor have I ever said or done anything to deserve the way you have essentially thrown me under the bus in the way that you have.

You have refused to even open a line of communication with the very people you should be trying to deal with, and you have taken offense at things they said which remind me of a school yard attitude. Please find another forum to carry on your _Steve Cross Versus The World_ because it is turning into a very negative thing, and we have no interest in that here.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## SENC

Steve - this will my last comment, too, but I won't leave without one last attempt to help because I think (based on the pictures and on your and Kevin's witness) you have access to a really cool tree that deserves to be measured.

I posted here about the ENTS site after finding it because it was clear to me, after spending an hour or so reading various posts there, that the site is actively engaged by experts (not necessarily in a species but in trees in general and measurement in particular). I was led to ENTS after reviewing the Middleton Oak climb/measurement blog I posted here earlier... and was excited to find many of the same players (including Will Blozan). I was mainly excited because the collection of resources SEEMED to be right up the alley of what you were seeking in your first few posts: experts in measuring trees without an agenda and with tools other than simple circumference, height, and spread.

It now seems rather obvious to me that you either never studied any of those links or, if you did, you gave only a cursory reading. I would encourage you, before you give up, to go and study them and, as Kevin suggested, enroll on the ENTS site and engage in dialogue. I have seen nothing there that would suggest any bias against your tree or towards 7S or any other tree... in fact, comments have been exactly the opposite and echo much of how you and Kevin started this thread, including direct comments from several that they believe multistemmed trees should get their own category or be excluded. Do several question estimated height? Yes, but all have done so respectfully and based on their experience and knowledge - and to a person all have said they think it should be measured and have offered help or recommendations. All have commented that you have a beauty of a tree and a real contender. Based on their comments and tone, I feel 100% confident they would all be excited to prove their picture-based height estimates wrong and find a 100'+ tree.

Bottom line - you may be the world's foremost expert on live oaks... but as you've stated yourself you aren't the expert in tree measurement and you've said you want to learn more and add to the field. In ENTS, you have access to the very experts you say you were seeking. As I read their posts, here is what I see being offered:
1 - volunteer "experts" to come and take preliminary measurements and talk with you and the owner, included among those volunteers one who has measured and documented over 250 big live oaks including most that have been referenced in this thread - if you are interested in someone who has been there and done that for the love of the live oak and who can give you (and ENTS) objective feedback on how your tree compares to the other giants, it seems to me that option is served up on a platter;
2 - assuming preliminary measurements and further discussion result in a desire from you and the land owner to try to go beyond traditional measures and fully study the tree to include 3d mapping and volume determination, the lead from the Middleton Oak measurement has volunteered his efforts and suggested there may be ways to get a study team funded philanthropically.

To get them rolling, I think all you need to do is register over there, jump in the thread Kevin started on your behalf, and figure out how to connect more personally to discuss the whats, hows, and whens.

You'll now have to decide whether to seek their advice and/or help or whether to continue to scorn them before even talking with them. I would hope, though, at the least you would show them the same respect as they have shown your tree in their responses to Kevin. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

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## Kevin

Henry thank you so much for saying what I've tried to say over numerous posts and phone calls but obviously failed miserably.

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## Mr. Peet

This thread started as a nice line of information and has grown very depressing to some extent. I fail to see how or why it is being complicated. If anyone thinks they have a Champion Tree, they simply contact their local / county / or regional forester through the farm bureau, county extension, college extension, game commission, dnr, der, dec and etc. departments. They gather your provided information, pass it along in the chain of command common to the particular area. This process has worked for many decades, with bumps here and there. The tree in question is often measured by several different crews to attain a quorum of agreeable information.

I have done these measurements for the USDA Forest Service. We used several forms of accurate measurement to check ourselves for consistency. Our numbers were often submitted to our state cohort and compared to their numbers. If it was a candidate for National, the numbers moved on for additional validation. If it was a "State Champ", is was recorded as so and so on for county status. The privacy of the owner can be kept. There are a lot of hoops, but the property owner typically only needs to make that first contact and the rest contact them.

So, this thread should have simply been done waiting results a few pages ago and a week or so ago. I hope this helps someone reading along and apologize to those who already knew this but were too kind to post it.

M.R. Peet

Reactions: Like 4


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> Steve, I feel bad that you do not value friendships any more than you obviously do. YOU have been calling ME 2 to 5 times a day about this and I have welcomed your calls and until very recently enjoyed them. But you have misrepresented some things and taken some things out of context that we discussed obviously and put them in print here. Even the several times I tried to back out of this saying that you didn't need any more help from me, you always came back with the same reply: _"This tree is big enough for two experts."_ At no time have I presented myself as an expert in the area of measuring a tree. Nor have I ever said or done anything to deserve the way you have essentially thrown me under the bus in the way that you have.
> 
> You have refused to even open a line of communication with the very people you should be trying to deal with, and you have taken offense at things they said which remind me of a school yard attitude. Please find another forum to carry on your _Steve Cross Versus The World_ because it is turning into a very negative thing, and we have no interest in that here.


Kevin,
I starting on this knew that this would be a big area of contention. The area I was speaking of is the historic mishandling of Live Oak.
On the phone calls , Live Oak was and is very important to me and I was attempting to clarify my areas of concern.
I am not sure what I misrepresented, but I would be glad to discuss it. I saw this as a discussion and analysis of rules and as such is going to have areas of disagreement. Good rule makers have to disagree,
I do not remember saying or writing that this tree is big enough for "Two Experts". I did say on several occasions that I felt it was big enough for two names; The Spooner Live Oak (real name) and Iron City Live Oak (my pet name).
As far as the number of experts needed to properly assess Live Oak in general and The Spooner Live Oak in particular, It needs to be a lot more than two and will be.
As far as a line of communcation with ENTS, I actually misspoke when I said that they should come to this forum. My point was that ENTS should come to a neutral area for discussions as I have a disagreement on their rules and procedures. So I should have said,and did say, on this forum that ENTS should contact Me. So I will say it again . My name is Steve Cross. I live at 1427 Highway South,Iron City, Georgia. My phone number is publicly listed. IF anyone ENTS or anybody wants to contact me, please do so.
I thank everyone for their interest.
Steve


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## Kevin

Since there doesn't seem to be any more that can be accomplised here, this looks like a good place to end this circus. Thanks to all who attempted to help.

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