# sumac



## Karda (Oct 31, 2019)

Hi, I cut some sumac but it is white and not colored and iridescent like other I have seen. One piece I cut did have the coloring expected but it was a crotch and half deed. Sumac i have seen and turned has a stripped greenish yellow iridescent coloring. Is all sumac this way or just some thanks Mike

Reactions: Like 1


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## Eric Rorabaugh (Oct 31, 2019)

@phinds


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## Nubsnstubs (Oct 31, 2019)

African Sumac is usually reddish, and after setting in the air, it turns quite red, if I'm seeing the same colors as all yall........... Jerry (in Tucson)


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## Karda (Oct 31, 2019)

that piece pictured is I assume stag horn sumac. i am not familiar with others. the piece i did that had the nice coloring was for the same grove along the road. It was a y from the ground up and half was dead. sorry no pictures


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## Mr. Peet (Oct 31, 2019)

Can't enlarge the picture... can't seem to focus...more pictures...turn it over and show the bark...looks like tree of heaven....what is the density?


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## phinds (Oct 31, 2019)

Doesn't look like staghorn at all. there are several different species of sumac and some are quite bland. Check out my sumac page (not the staghorn)


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## Karda (Oct 31, 2019)

wheres your sumac page. When the rain lets up I'll take a picture of a log I have out back. I striped the bark. It is nasty sticky so I stripped it before cut blanks. it is a smooth gray bark , the inner bark is bright yellow


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## phinds (Oct 31, 2019)

Karda said:


> wheres your sumac page.


My Wood ID web site is linked in my signature.

Here's the sumac page:

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/sumac.htm


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## Karda (Oct 31, 2019)

thanks the sample labeled smooth bark sumac is what I am referring to. Here is a bowl from a blank I purchased as sumac.

Reactions: Like 1


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## phinds (Oct 31, 2019)

Be nice if you could be a pic that is in focus so we could see the grain differentiation. Hard to tell from that pic WHAT that bowl might be.


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## Nubsnstubs (Nov 1, 2019)

Karda said:


> thanks the sample labeled smooth bark sumac is what I am referring to. Here is a bowl from a blank I purchased as sumac.
> 
> View attachment 173668


Come on, Mike, I know you can get a focused picture. ............ Jerry (in Tucson)


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## Mr. Peet (Nov 1, 2019)

Karda said:


> thanks the sample labeled smooth bark sumac is what I am referring to. Here is a bowl from a blank I purchased as sumac.
> 
> View attachment 173668



I don't think you mean smooth bark sumac, but 'smooth sumac'. Smooth sumac grows in your area as does Staghorn. Staghorn sumac has the velvet like terminals (branch tips) while smooth sumac does not, thus smooth. The wood of both is very similar, so much so, that telling them apart can be impossible.

Now 'winged sumac' is often a smaller plant with more plainly colored wood.


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## phinds (Nov 1, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> Now 'winged sumac' is often a smaller plant with more plainly colored wood.



As are several other sumacs, I believe, but I have no idea which ones grow in your area.


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## Karda (Nov 1, 2019)

i did mean smooth barck sumac: he is the identifying caption from the sumac page phinds

posted NOTE: all of these pics of the smoothbark sumac are just a shade too orange and not quite green enough and I can't see any difference between this and some staghorn sumac I've seen (but that doesn't mean it is NOT smoothbark sumac)


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## Karda (Nov 1, 2019)

here is a picture of the bark and the dish i made but the blank was listed as sumac, thats the coloring I am looking for:

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## Mr. Peet (Nov 1, 2019)

Karda said:


> here is a picture of the bark and the dish i made but the blank was listed as sumac, thats the coloring I am looking for:
> 
> View attachment 173674
> 
> View attachment 173675



The bark does not look correct for 'Smooth sumac'. Your bark is starting to develop vertical fissures. Smooth sumac has horizontal lenticels and does not develop fissures, but tiny 1/4" bark flakes.

Your bark looks much like one of the Phellodendron species in its early stages, but lacking Phellodendron colored wood, I'd still have to stay with 'Tree of heaven', 'Ailanthus' and the slang 'Chinese sumac' (a term derived from similar plant stature and compound leaf display), _Ailanthus altissima_ .


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## Karda (Nov 1, 2019)

that explains it, i heard about that tree years ago


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## Karda (Nov 9, 2019)

MR. Peet I was just going through this thread and realized that you identified the tree that I pictured but miss under stood me. I also wanted to know the species of sumac the bowl I pictured is. Sorry for the confusion.


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## phinds (Nov 9, 2019)

The bowl is not well enough shown to be identified, I think. Doubt we could do it from just a pic of the bowl even if you had provided a good pic. There are too many varieties and not enough variation among them.

Rhus aromatica
Rhus chinensis
Rhus chirindensis
Rhus copallinum
Rhus coriaria
Rhus glabra
Rhus hypoleuca
Rhus integrifolia
Rhus kearneyi
Rhus lanceolata
Rhus microphylla
Rhus mollis
Rhus ovata
Rhus pulvinata
Rhus sandwicensis
Rhus succedanea
Rhus taitensis
Rhus trilobata
Rhus typhina
Rhus vernix
Rhus virens


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## Mr. Peet (Nov 9, 2019)

Karda said:


> MR. Peet I was just going through this thread and realized that you identified the tree that I pictured but miss under stood me. I also wanted to know the species of sumac the bowl I pictured is. Sorry for the confusion.



What are the sizes on the bowl? Width, & Height?


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## Nubsnstubs (Nov 9, 2019)

phinds said:


> The bowl is not well enough shown to be identified, I think. Doubt we could do it from just a pic of the bowl even if you had provided a good pic. There are too many varieties and not enough variation among them.
> 
> Rhus aromatica
> Rhus chinensis
> ...


Paul, is the African Sumac in your list above? Or is there another name for it? ............. Jerry (in Tucson)


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## phinds (Nov 9, 2019)

Nubsnstubs said:


> Paul, is the African Sumac in your list above? Or is there another name for it? ............. Jerry (in Tucson)


no, African sumac is not a Rhus species, it's in the genera Sersia.

Searsia lancea (synonym Rhus lancea) = sumac, African

If you want a list of ALL the woods that have sumac as all or part of one or more of their common names, it's much longer than the one I originally provided. African sumac IS the most commonly used name for Searsia lancea, but many of these woods have much more widely used common names than the ones that include "sumac".

If you want to be able to answer such questions for yourself, here: wood name database

aidia cochinchinensis
ailanthus altissima
amphipterygium adstringens
anogeissus latifolia
brucea javanica
brunellia comocladifolia
brunellia comocladiifolia
caesalpinia coriaria
callicarpa acuminata
colpoon compressum
cotinus coggygria
cotinus obovatus
eugenia fadyenii
eugenia faydeni
malosma laurina
metopium brownei
metopium brownii
metopium toxiferum
osyris abyssinica
rhus aromatica
rhus chinensis
rhus chirindensis
rhus copallinum
rhus coriaria
rhus glabra
rhus hypoleuca
rhus integrifolia
rhus kearneyi
rhus lanceolata
rhus microphylla
rhus mollis
rhus ovata
rhus pulvinata
rhus sandwicensis
rhus spp
rhus succedanea
rhus taitensis
rhus trilobata
rhus typhina
rhus vernix
rhus virens
sapindus saponaria
searsia lancea
sorbus americana
sorbus spp
syzygium sayeri
tarenna sambucina
timonius nitidus
toxicodendron javanicum
toxicodendron pubescens
toxicodendron radicans
toxicodendron spp
toxicodendron trichocarpum
toxicodendron vernix


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## Karda (Nov 9, 2019)

ok thanks


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## Mr. Peet (Nov 9, 2019)

Karda said:


> ok thanks



You still forgot to list the bowl size, width and height.


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## Karda (Nov 9, 2019)

5.5 x 1.75


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## Mr. Peet (Nov 10, 2019)

Karda said:


> 5.5 x 1.75



Thanks Mike,

Now having some actual measurements is helpful. Your bowl seems to lack any pith, so being 1.75 high, we know the tree needed to be at least twice that (3.5) in diameter. Being 5.5 wide tells us the tree was at least 5.5 in diameter. Figure in some waste and sapwood, I'd estimate at least 1 inch larger, 6.5 diameter stem. This is about the largest Smooth sumac gets in your area, while Staghorn does get larger.

Take your bowl to your workbench (or table). Have sheet of 8" x 11" paper and a caliper compass with pencil tip. Place the bowl against the side of the table, orienting the growth rings in the bowl to match a tree (pith away from you) if it was growing from the floor to the ceiling. Take your compass and set it to match the circumference of one of the smaller growth rings (passing the compass over the bowl to match the arc of the compass to a growth ring). Once you have a match, expand the compass to match a few other growth rings, drawing arcs on your paper (paper in landscape orientation, longest side on table edge). Then do it for the largest complete arc (growth ring) of the bowl. Then do it for the partial arcs, they should line up or be close. The partial arcs are the extreme left and right, that has the bowl flat bottom in between.

Now you have a picture on your paper. The compass pivot is pith. A straight line through pith from arch to arch is your diameter. Add in sapwood, 1/4" = 1/2" as it is on both ends of your diameter line, or more if the sapwood was thicker.

What did you get for tree diameter? Realize this assumes the tree grew straight and concentrically even. You also have to imagine the growth rings of the bowl extended to an imaginary plane flush with the table / work bench, because you can not trace the rings on the bowl exactly, as curvature changes 1 dimensional drawing into multiple dimensional. 

If using a work bench, clamp 2 short boards vertically on the edge of the bench as guide rails that you can slide the bowl straight up and down. Theoretical pith stays centered, as a growth ring meets the plane of the table top, you might be able to touch the bowl growth ring on each side with the compass arced over the protruding bowl edge. This reduces how much imagining is needed to extend growth rings to reach the plane of the table.

Let us know how you do.


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## Nubsnstubs (Nov 10, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> Thanks Mike,
> 
> Now having some actual measurements is helpful. Your bowl seems to lack any pith, so being 1.75 high, we know the tree needed to be at least twice that (3.5) in diameter. Being 5.5 wide tells us the tree was at least 5.5 in diameter. Figure in some waste and sapwood, I'd estimate at least 1 inch larger, 6.5 diameter stem. This is about the largest Smooth sumac gets in your area, while Staghorn does get larger.
> 
> ...




HUH?????????? Jerry (in Tucson)

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Eric Rorabaugh (Nov 10, 2019)

I'm not the brightest bulb in the box and that just confused the chit outta me. I don't need to know what type of wood it is that bad. Mark, you are the man when it comes to stuff like this. Respect and admiration comes your way. Wow!


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## vegas urban lumber (Nov 10, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> Thanks Mike,
> 
> Now having some actual measurements is helpful. Your bowl seems to lack any pith, so being 1.75 high, we know the tree needed to be at least twice that (3.5) in diameter. Being 5.5 wide tells us the tree was at least 5.5 in diameter. Figure in some waste and sapwood, I'd estimate at least 1 inch larger, 6.5 diameter stem. This is about the largest Smooth sumac gets in your area, while Staghorn does get larger.
> 
> ...


when you get done with that let me know if a kanoider pin will leave an indention in it when pressed firmly, then we'll go snipe hunting

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Mr. Peet (Nov 10, 2019)

Sorry to have caused any confusion. Just using simple geometry to help Mike, or so I thought. I've demonstrated the same actions with middle schoolers and they seem to grasp it. Maybe I should post it as a video some time.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Nubsnstubs (Nov 10, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> Sorry to have caused any confusion. Just using simple geometry to help Mike, or so I thought. I've demonstrated the same actions with middle schoolers and they seem to grasp it. Maybe I should post it as a video some time.


That would make it worse for all us old timers...... But, Eric isn't that old.

Trev, been on one of those Snipe hunts. Got my bag limit and back to bivouac area before my guides did. That was the last Snipe hunt I was invited on. Seemed like the old timers liked to indoctrinate the recruits first. ........ Jerry (in Tucson)

Reactions: Funny 1


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## T. Ben (Nov 13, 2019)

When are we going snipe hunting? I want in,even though they taste kind like liver.


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## Nubsnstubs (Nov 13, 2019)

T. Ben said:


> When are we going snipe hunting? I want in,even though they taste kind like liver.


Troy, my hunt took place on the banks of the Rhine River back in '65. The place probably has a shopping center over it now. Them Snipe were tasty little critters. Taste like chickin. ........... Jerry


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## Wildthings (Nov 13, 2019)

Snipe -- did someone say SNIPE??


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## Eric Rorabaugh (Nov 13, 2019)

They are a pretty bird


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## T. Ben (Nov 13, 2019)

Nubsnstubs said:


> Troy, my hunt took place on the banks of the Rhine River back in '65. The place probably has a shopping center over it now. Them Snipe were tasty little critters. Taste like chickin. ........... Jerry


A little before my time,I find them once and a while when I’m out pheasant hunting.


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## Texasstate (Nov 14, 2019)

Staghorn sumac

Reactions: Like 3 | Way Cool 1


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