# serious weirdness in "bird peck" black walnut from rob3232



## phinds

There is this thing that rob3232 introduced me to called "bird peck" in black walnut.

According to the Purdue wood site:

https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-278-W.pdf (see page 4)

Bird peck exists, is fairly common in black walnut, and really is caused by birds pecking on the tree. It is called "worm" in the veneer business because it looks like a worm hole.

Below are a couple of sections of the a plank that Rob sent me and some closeups of the bird peck areas. The streaking looks very much like ambrosia streaking but I'm willing to believe that it is actually caused by birds, as both Rob and Purdue say it is.

*UPDATE: see post #35. I have more evidence and now believe
that all the stuff shown in this thread is ambrosia walnut*
*"bird peck" walnut DOES exist but we're not seeing it here*
Rob's maple in post #13 doesn't count (not walnut)​
BUT ... here's the problem that I'd like to get comments on: the hole only goes into the plank just a little way (which is very consistent with a bird pecking the tree) but it is on the inside. That is, this particular plank was cut close to the sapwood and on one side they have sapwood edges. Both this and the growth ring curvature make it unquestionably clear that the hole is on the INSIDE of the plank. That is, the only way it could have been made by a bird is if the bird was inside the tree. Looked at another way, you could say that what it really looks like is that a worm tunneled into the tree somewhere else, made his way over to this area, started heading from the inside of the tree towards the bark and then stopped about 2" inside the bark so that when this plank was cut there is a shallow hole in the surface of the plank. And not just one ... there are 4 of them in just this 2 foot by 6 inch section of plank.

So ... I just don't get how Purdue and Rob can be right about it being caused by a bird BUT I also don't get how it was that these 4 worms just happened to stop right inside the line where the plank was going to be cut. This strikes me as impossible.

I'm thinking there must be some other explanation, but I have no idea what it might be.

Rob, please jump in with any comments you have. I didn't write down much when we spoke on the phone the other day and I may have overlooked something you told me.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## rob3232

Hmmm a mystery?? Hope some other members chime in


----------



## barry richardson

Maybe the pecking was done a while ago and new wood grew over it, giving it the appearance that it was pecked from the inside...


----------



## Kevin

I think it could very well be borers. I see similar holes in my wood all the time, many of which seem to all happen to 'stop simultaneously' on the same 'strata' if you will. Lots of werid things happen with, and in, wood. It's a good mystery though and I would like to hear a definitive answer to it if one could be found.


----------



## phinds

Barry, I thought of that too but the problem I have with it is that I can't see the wood keeping the nice clean hole shape as it grows another 2" of wood over it. [NOTE: see "another thought" below --- this is essentially what you are suggesting]

Kevin, I agree that it damned near HAS to be borers despite what Purdue and Rob have to say about it. Probably there is a form of "bird peck" black walnut that IS caused by birds but this isn't it. That would solve everything.

That's a bit like solving the argument as to where or not Shakespeare was really the guy who wrote all those plays by saying, no he didn't ... they were all written by a different guy, who was also named Shakespeare. 


ANOTHER THOUGHT ... I just realized ... maybe what happens is that there IS a bird peck on the surface and then it's overgrown by new sapwood but only right at the outside and a little hollow tube, not very deep at all, effectively moves into the tree as the new sapwood expands the tree outward. Then the tube becomes part of the area that turns into heartwood and when the wood is milled, the hole shows up just like what I have. Hm ... could be. Any thoughts? This is just what Barry suggested.


----------



## Kevin

phinds said:


> ANOTHER THOUGHT ... I just realized ... maybe what happens is that there IS a bird peck on the surface and then it's overgrown by new sapwood but only right at the outside and a little hollow tube, not very deep at all, effectively moves into the tree as the new sapwood expands the tree outward. Then the tube becomes part of the area that turns into heartwood and when the wood is milled, the hole shows up just like what I have. Hm ... could be. Any thoughts?



I have pondered that before - years ago - I think it's unlikely. When one truly understands the way wood cells form, and how they create wood fibers, and what wood fibers do as they strecth out and bind with one another and all things they touch, it is unlikely to happen very frequently. I'm sure it can, but wood wants to trap everything it comes into contact with - like the Borg, wood assimilates things tightly and isn't prone to "avoiding" things by giving them their own space. Just my theory though based on my laymen's understanding of how wood grows.


----------



## phinds

Kevin said:


> I have pondered that before - years ago - I think it's unlikely. When one truly understands the way wood cells form, and how they create wood fibers, and what wood fibers do as they strecth out and bind with one another and all things they touch, it is unlikely to happen very frequently. I'm sure it can, but wood wants to trap everything it comes into contact with - like the Borg, wood assimilates things tightly and isn't prone to "avoiding" things by giving them their own space. Just my theory though based on my laymen's understanding of how wood grows.


 
Yeah, I agree. I'm just floundering around trying to figure out how this stuff happened. I think this is worm but I'm trying to keep an open mind since Purdue says actual bird peck does happen. Maybe THEY'RE wrong


----------



## Kevin

phinds said:


> .... I'm trying to keep an open mind since Purdue says actual bird peck does happen. .



Bird peck does happen to walnut I've seen it from logs I've harvested, but from the outside. I also had trouble getting a veneer buyer to come look at a stand of walnut logs about 7 years ago because he said to me on the phone _"All the walnut in you area has bird peck I'd be wasting my time"._

Does the Purdue info have a traceable trail e.g. white paper with bibliography and field research etc.?


----------



## Kevin

Another thing, I'm sure you looked at those boards end grain to make sure those holes were not from the outside correct? If those holes are on the sap side mystery solved . . . . . .


----------



## dycmark

It would seem to me that having borers all stop in the same place is not that hard to believe if they bore at similar pace and are introduced around the same time. That all makes perfect sense to me and then they die off at nearly precisely the same time likely do to something environmental. I do however think that the Bird INSIDE the tree is MUCH more fun to envision and I can almost see the project now... 

titled "Bird in Tree" 
subtitled "A bird in the tree is better than a bird in the hand"
(or at least a lot more fun to talk about)

Mark


----------



## phinds

Kevin said:


> Another thing, I'm sure you looked at those boards end grain to make sure those holes were not from the outside correct? If those holes are on the sap side mystery solved . . . . . .


 
I think you need to reread my original post.


----------



## phinds

dycmark said:


> It would seem to me that having borers all stop in the same place is not that hard to believe if they bore at similar pace and are introduced around the same time.


 
Yes, if that were the situation, I'd agree that it might be possible, but I don't see that as being likely since in this case it would be bugs being introduced a exactly the right distances apart to bore into the tree, swing around and head towards the bark again, and then all stop, NOT at the same distance from the bark but at the same distance into a tangential plane (the heartwood side of the plank) that has varying distances from the bark.


----------



## phinds

Kevin said:


> Bird peck does happen to walnut I've seen it from logs I've harvested, but from the outside. I also had trouble getting a veneer buyer to come look at a stand of walnut logs about 7 years ago because he said to me on the phone _"All the walnut in you area has bird peck I'd be wasting my time"._



Good info. Thanks



> Does the Purdue info have a traceable trail e.g. white paper with bibliography and field research etc.?


I didn't look, but I don't think so. The comments about bird peck on page 4 of the linked paper are along with many comments about various aspects of the figure on 5 or 6 different planks.


----------



## dycmark

phinds said:


> tangential plane


. can you hold on a min. I need to get out my abacus and my compass and try to figure out if it is a tangentially tangible elucidation. 

For a bunch of guys who make sawdust for enjoyment (and perhaps, for the luck ones, profit) we sure do use some big words.

Mark


----------



## rob3232

I do not know if this will help but here is a picture of the end of a hard maple log with bird peck. I think it at least shows how once the log is cut the bird peck could show on the inner side, outer side, or even be concealed within.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## phinds

rob3232 said:


> I do not know if this will help but here is a picture of the end of a hard maple log with bird peck. I think it at least shows how once the log is cut the bird peck could show on the inner side, outer side, or even be concealed within.



OK, so whether it is due to birds or a worms. then clearly it IS the case that the peck happens starting at the bark, the tree grows over it, and the hole remains perfectly formed as it moves into the tree and the sapwood gets stained early in the process. Kevin and I both have trouble believing that that is at all likely (the hole staying so nicely formed). Still, I'm not seeing any other explanation. Now we STILL need to figure out if it's really a bird, but this certainly makes it possible.

Also, based on the positioning on that particular piece of maple, it looks like there was a good year for the birds or bugs or whatever, then a couple of off years, then they are back again, then a couple more off years, then back again.

This is fascinating (see how easily entertained I am? )

Thanks, Rob.

Paul

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


----------



## rob3232

I am easily entertained also. I do not have liberty but if I could cut a 1" cookie off of that maple log I think we might see something different? Maybe no peck or peck in different rings of growth?
If you look back to the Purdue site it says that the holes(bird pecks) are filled with something(??) that easily falls out. (so they are not truly holes)

Thanks

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Kevin

phinds said:


> Also, based on the positioning on that particular piece of maple, it looks like there was a good year for the birds or bugs or whatever, then a couple of off years, then they are back again, then a couple more off years, then back again.



I'm with you Paul. This IS fascinating. And just look at that one radioactive-looking colored ring 28 years in; clearly that was Chernobyl. 



 

Trees talk.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## phinds

rob3232 said:


> I am easily entertained also. I do not have liberty but if I could cut a 1" cookie off of that maple log I think we might see something different? Maybe no peck or peck in different rings of growth?
> If you look back to the Purdue site it says that the holes(bird pecks) are filled with something(??) that easily falls out. (so they are not truly holes)
> 
> Thanks


 
Hm ... I missed that. That to me adds to the evidence that it is not a bird, since birds typically remove stuff, not leave stuff, but bugs can do either or both.


----------



## HomeBody

Woodpeckers are about the only bird around here I see pecking trees. Yellow bellied sapsuckers peck holes in nice neat horizontal rows like the maple log above. They are after sap. Other woodpeckers are more random and are after bugs. I have lots of walnut and all I've ever noticed is bug holes. I'll have to look again closer. Gary


----------



## rob3232

Paul- this is what I meant

industry. It can appear like a worm hole but upon careful 
examination will show a hole filled with callous tissue 
that either falls out or can be removed. The callous 
tissue is formed by the tree to heal over the bird peck.

Yeah I can cut and paste

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## phinds

Aha ... more to think about. Dammit, if we could just have the bird INSIDE the tree the whole thing would be solved

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Treecycle Hardwoods

I was at robs house this past weekend and got to see the some of the material in question. A couple of thoughts on this one...

Going back to my days of diagnosing and selling treatments to many species of trees for a multitude of reasons boring insects eat at the cambium layer of the tree and leave the tell tale zig zag trails under the bark. They feed and live off of the starch the tree produces. There are a few exceptions such as the ambrosia beetle. This stuff clearly wasn't caused by boring insects. 

Birds peck trees for different reasons sometimes it is to get bugs that are already there and sometimes it is to use the sticky sap of the tree as a bait and trap for bugs. The the later possibility the bird will work a set of holes keeping them open this can cause sap to secrete and dry a bunch of sap, bug guts, and other small debris to lodge in the hole and prevent the tree from healing properly. The sap is the temporary glue to hold it together. Not every hole becomes a permanent scar but the ones that do have the "bird peck" scar are there because of the sap mixture that filled the hole and prevented a total healing as the tree grew. It appears to be random because some holes heal and some don't. The permanent scars mark a history point in the growth of the tree. Old growth rings of a tree are closest to the center the oldest "bird peck" damage is also closest to the center. If it happens in multiple years you get a layered effect.

When I sold the tree care services I would let the customers know that if the bugs were gone the birds wouldn't have as much to eat. 
Mother nature is odd but some years bugs just aren't as bad as others. My hunch is that the areas on robs sample log that have little/no peck the growth rings are smaller because of dry growth seasons for those years. Bug populations are generally lower in dry years also.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


----------



## phinds

That all makes good sense. Thanks, Greg.


----------



## phinds

I HATE IT WHEN I DO THIS !!!

You would THINK that I would know what's on my own site, but it has just gotten so big, and I've gotten so senile, that I don't always.

I was adding pics to the black walnut page this morning and here's what I ran across:






*SEE UPDATE IN POST #35*


----------



## TimR

Looking at that cookie, and just tossing this out there to get slammed...is it possible any of this is due to some multiyear cyclical brood of insect, i.e cicadas or ? Seeing those bands at specific intervals seems to make that a possibility.


----------



## phinds

TimR said:


> Looking at that cookie, and just tossing this out there to get slammed...is it possible any of this is due to some multiyear cyclical brood of insect, i.e cicadas or ? Seeing those bands at specific intervals seems to make that a possibility.


 
As I said in post #15,



> Also, based on the positioning on that particular piece of maple, it looks like there was a good year for the birds or bugs or whatever, then a couple of off years, then they are back again, then a couple more off years, then back again.


 
So, yeah, I'd say it's certainly a possibility, but the consensus of the thread seems to be that it IS caused by birds, as unlikely as I initially thought that to be.


----------



## rob3232

Funny thing...

That picture you have on your site from Kevin is what got me looking more closely at walnut.

When I started researching I was looking for ambrosia beetle holes then stumbled across the Purdue site. Then a new door was opened... " Bird peck "

I see lots of bird peck but only a small percentage (maybe 20 percent) have the streak and the oblong hole. Most have a glob of bark or a small " V " shape. 

Now that I am tuned into bird peck that is all I see.

The streak or whatever it is called is the mystery to me. I do not understand why it it happens with one peck and not another one an inch away??

In maple it looks identical to ambrosia. Many other species also. (Cherry, hickory, elm and probably more that I haven't looked at lately)

P.S. Paul if you scroll up from the bottom of that page you might find a few more of your pictures have some bird peck in them


----------



## phinds

rob3232 said:


> I see lots of bird peck but only a small percentage (maybe 20 percent) have the streak and the oblong hole. Most have a glob of bark or a small " V " shape.
> 
> The streak or whatever it is called is the mystery to me. I do not understand why it it happens with one peck and not another one an inch away??


Well, on the plank you sent me, ALL of the holes have the streak.




> P.S. Paul if you scroll up from the bottom of that page you might find a few more of your pictures have some bird peck in them


 
I'll be damned ... I DID see a couple. You're right, once you know to look for it, it's not so rare after all !


----------



## El Camino Woodworks

Here's my two cents. If you look at the pattern in the center of the board. That knotty area reminds me of the type of areas that birds would nest in. I mean I've seen plenty of holes in walnut trees right in an area like that. Usually the limb had broken off and a squirrel would start on it and make a cozy home for a season or two. Then some birds would move in and nest. So if you think of it that way, bird peck would make sense to me.

Any how it's a fun debate. Thanks for the share. I'm getting a nice big chunk of black walnut pretty soon. I think I'll make a few dovetail templates from it. A box or three. Some miter wedge inserts. And whatever's clever from there.

Reactions: Useful 1


----------



## Mike1950

I think everybody is kinda right. Birds- why do they peck trees? They do NOT eat wood, they eat bugs- the bugs were there first and the birds came- and evicted the bugs.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## rob3232

Mike1950 said:


> They do NOT eat wood, they eat bugs



I totally agree Mike, but birds eat sap. Then bugs come and eat sap in same spot.Birds return to eat bugs and the cycle goes on. Some logs are covered with bird peck from the heart to the sapwood with no signs of bug damage. Hickory and elm are good examples.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Mike1950

rob3232 said:


> I totally agree Mike, but birds eat sap. Then bugs come and eat sap in same spot.Birds return to eat bugs and the cycle goes on. Some logs are covered with bird peck from the heart to the sapwood with no signs of bug damage. Hickory and elm are good examples.


we do not really have the sapsuckers here. woodpeckers is what I was thinking.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Mike1950

rob3232 said:


> I totally agree Mike, but birds eat sap. Then bugs come and eat sap in same spot.Birds return to eat bugs and the cycle goes on. Some logs are covered with bird peck from the heart to the sapwood with no signs of bug damage. Hickory and elm are good examples.



Probably because in inland NW we really do not have many native deciduous trees.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## phinds

UPDATE:

I now have a couple more examples of ambrosia walnut and I'm convinced that all of the images in this thread and the one on my site listed as "bird peck" (now changed) are ambrosia walnut.

My site page has been updated http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/walnut, black.htm

Reactions: Way Cool 1 | Useful 1


----------



## rob3232

@phinds I have to respectfully disagree. I have seen bird peck in all of the species of lumber that I look at up here in Wisconsin. It is more prevalent in some species and less so in others. In Hickory, Elm, Cherry and Walnut it is pretty common. Hickory more so than others. I'm guessing that you think that the color change is related to a beetle but I think it is because the bird peck stopped the flow of nutrients to the tree and prematurally changed the sapwood to heartwood?? Not really sure why Walnut does this differently as far as color change?

Here are some pictures of some bird peck in other species.

Well first one is Walnut



 








 

Grey Elm



 



 



 



 


Black Cherry



 



 



 





Northern Red Oak



 

Pictures got screwed up. Hopefully you get the idea??

Rob


----------



## phinds

Rob, thanks for that information, BUT ... of the pics you posted, only the cherry one could remotely be confused with ambrosia streaks, and I'm even doubtful about it. Certainly the walnut pics you posted could not, as far as I can see, be confused with ambrosia. 

To make my point, here are some pics of ambrosia streaks, with the bug hole in the middle of the streak:











and here are some in walnut








As I said, with the exception of one of the marks in you cherry piece, I don't see how the marks in the pics you posted could be confused with these.

Paul


----------



## rob3232

No worries Paul. I thought ambrosia had something to do with Beatles ? 


So if no holes no Beatles?? Wood heals in many ways. Thanks Paul!


----------



## rob3232

Ok, so no beetles ?? No worries my friend!


----------



## phinds

Rob, since you are asking about a British rock band, I'm not sure if you're joking or just a typo but I'll assume it's a typo. Anyway, ambrosia markings are caused by various species of beetle that pick up the ambrosia fungus and the bore holes in trees where the fungus causes the markings. The markings you show, except for the cherry, don't seem to have holes, nor do they have the elongated markings that are typical of ambrosia which are generally about twice the width of the hole at the point of the hole and then long and tapering up and down the tree from there.

Other beetles (or the same boring beetles if they have not picked up the ambrosia fungus) will leave holes but no markings.


----------



## rob3232

Paul @phinds Check out Hickory bird peck pictures. 

https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-285-W.pdf


----------



## Nubsnstubs

rob3232 said:


> Paul @phinds Check out Hickory bird peck pictures.
> 
> https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-285-W.pdf



That's some good looking wood. I think the Bird Pecks look more like Ambrosia Beetle holes, but I'm no expert. Thanks for posting that, Paul.............. Jerry (in Tucson)


----------



## rob3232

Here is some interesting reading pertaining to bird pecks.

https://books.google.com/books?id=U...+a+wormhole&source=bl&ots=xjdzdsjZNf&sig=ACfU


----------



## phinds

rob3232 said:


> Paul @phinds Check out Hickory bird peck pictures.
> 
> https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-285-W.pdf


Yep, those look more like ambrosia marking but still not quite there. You'll notice that these markings have a mottled color throughout but ambrosia markings are light in the middle with a darker defining edge around the elongated mark. Also, ambrosia markings TEND to be longer than the bird pick markings (but I say "tend" because it depends on how the wood is cut.


----------



## phinds

rob3232 said:


> Here is some interesting reading pertaining to bird pecks.
> 
> https://books.google.com/books?id=U...+a+wormhole&source=bl&ots=xjdzdsjZNf&sig=ACfU


Well, it does say that bird peck markings can be up to 6" long which is much more than I expected but if the image they show is any indication, they still don't look like the ambrosia markings, which I described in post #44 directly above.


----------



## rob3232

@phinds Paul here are some pictures from the same face as it came through the mill twice today. It is weird that sapwood leaves dark streaks and heartwood leaves lighter colored streaks?? @woodtickgreg I think you mentioned this at some time??



 



 

Hope this helps with your site Paul


Rob

P.S. Poor lighting. ARGGGGG I'll keep trying

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## phinds

Damn. Now we have another mystery. These look like ambrosia beetle marks, including being somewhat lighter in the middle and darker around the edge, but why are both areas SO dark, especially when the wood is so light?


----------



## rob3232

I’ll keep taking pictures for you Paul! We’ll figure it out

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## woodtickgreg

Looks like ambrosia streaks to me.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## rob3232

You guys are too funny! There are no beetle or worm holes. I’ll keep taking pictures  Thanks 

Rob


----------



## phinds

rob3232 said:


> You guys are too funny! There are no beetle or worm holes.


??? What are these ???

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## rob3232

Those are the bird pecks.


----------



## phinds

rob3232 said:


> Those are the bird pecks.


I'm arguing that they are ambrosia beetle holes, but I'm not 100% on that. I'd be more comfortable w/ that conclusion if they were more circular. The streaks look like ambrosia, not bird peck (see my comments up in the thread), but the holes I'm not so sure about.


----------



## woodtickgreg

I'm still saying those are ambrosia beetle larvae holes.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Nubsnstubs

How about a bird getting the beetle? Solved, combo bird peck and ambrosia beetle stain. Again, just a guess. ............ Jerry (in Tucson)

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## rob3232

I totally agree that they look like ambrosia streaks. Not to complicate things but tap scar Maple streaks looks like ambrosia on steroids. In other words the sap flow has been interrupted so the wood around the damage prematurely turns into heartwood. Hope that makes sense??


----------



## phinds

rob3232 said:


> I totally agree that they look like ambrosia streaks. Not to complicate things but tap scar Maple streaks looks like ambrosia on steroids. In other words the sap flow has been interrupted so the wood around the damage prematurely turns into heartwood. Hope that makes sense??


Absolutely makes sense, but see my comments earlier in the thread about how the light center and darker edge doesn't look like bird peck and the very long streaks don't look like bird peck.

EDIT: Oh, you already agreed w/ that. So why do you still think it is bird peck?


----------



## rob3232

phinds said:


> Oh, you already agreed w/ that. So why do you still think it is bird peck?



I agreed that they look like ambrosia streaks (?). If you look at the above links I posted you will see streaks in Cherry and Hickory associated with bird pecks. I know that you are aware that the beetles leave behind a fungus that darkens the color of the wood around the holes. Why do you think that the fungus causes streaks? And a specific streak?I do not understand that... Many things can cause streaks in wood like I said with tap holes.

This basswood has the obvious coloration around the holes (ambrosia beetle holes, at least it fits the definition ) but streaking looks nothing like what you're talking about as far as I can tell?



 



 



Thanks in advance for your thought Paul

Rob


----------



## phinds

I think those holes are likely caused by a beetle that doesn't have the ambrosia fungus on it, or by some other borer. There are plenty of borers that could have done that. I'm not familiar w/ them and I don't know what ones leave that kind of black stain around the hole. Calling @Mr. Peet 

At any rate, I've never seen actual ambrosia beetle holes that did not have the streaks. Well, possibly an isolated one here and there amidst a plethora of stained holes (and I'm not SURE I've even seen that).

I have no idea why the stain pattern is the way it is but I have observed it to be consistently that way.


----------



## rob3232

I've never seen actual ambrosia beetle holes that did not have the streaks.
@phinds

We will have to keep working on this..

I'm guessing that you are basing your ambrosia thoughts on Acer genus?

Thanks Rob


----------



## phinds

rob3232 said:


> I'm guessing that you are basing your ambrosia thoughts on Acer genus?


No, I'm basing it on all of the ambrosia pieces I've ever seen, including boxwood, sycamore, walnut, in addition to lots of maple.


----------



## rob3232

Sorry about edit. Hopefully makes more sense?

Rob


----------



## rob3232

No worries Paulso ambrosia refers to a type of beetle as you have said. I still don’t understand how the beetles can leave a streak in the tree? The beetles only make holes in the tree. Not trying to bust your chops but I don’t understand?


----------



## phinds

rob3232 said:


> No worries Paulso ambrosia refers to a type of beetle as you have said. I still don’t understand how the beetles can leave a streak in the tree? The beetles only make holes in the tree. Not trying to bust your chops but I don’t understand?


No, ambrosia does not at all refer to a type of beetle, it refers to ANY beetle (of many known species) that somehow gets coated with the ambrosia fungus and then bores into a tree. I have not researched HOW they get coated, just that it's not a specific species or type of beetle. It's not the beetle, but the FUNGUS that leaves the steaks. The beetles WANT to get coated because it's the fungus that leaves something edible for their larvae. Apparently neither the beetles nor the larvae eat the wood, just excavate it.


----------



## rob3232

Ok, That makes sense. How do you think the beetle or fungus can spread up and down the tree? I think that the tree does that with sap flow.

So you don’t think the Basswood with blue stained holes I posted are caused by a beetle coated with ambrosia fungus? And why?

Having fun and enjoy your thoughts!

Just because something is listed as ambrosia whatever doesn’t make it so or define the term?

Regards


----------



## phinds

rob3232 said:


> Ok, That makes sense. How do you think the beetle or fungus can spread up and down the tree? I think that the tree does that with sap flow.


correct.



> So you don’t think the Basswood with blue stained holes I posted are caused by a beetle coated with ambrosia fungus? And why?


I'm just off to do something so won't look that up, but if I said it in response to your post, I likely would say it again and I'm sure I would have based my opinion on the "look" of the streaks.



> Just because something is listed as ambrosia whatever doesn’t make it so or define the term?


Correct, unless it is listed by an authoritative source.

I can't think of any authoritative sources offhand but ALL of the ambrosia wood I've every seen has consistently had the same look so I'm confident in that being a useful discriminator between ambrosia and bird peck.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## rob3232

Looking forward Paul. Thanks my friend!


----------



## phinds

rob3232 said:


> Looking forward Paul. Thanks my friend!


I've lost track of where we are. Me, I'm looking forward to eating KFC for dinner tonight. What is it that you are looking forward to?


----------



## rob3232

Frozen pizza for us. 

Dam KFC. I really like the coleslaw!


----------



## Mr. Peet

phinds said:


> I think those holes are likely caused by a beetle that doesn't have the ambrosia fungus on it, or by some other borer. There are plenty of borers that could have done that. I'm not familiar w/ them and I don't know what ones leave that kind of black stain around the hole. Calling @Mr. Peet
> 
> At any rate, I've never seen actual ambrosia beetle holes that did not have the streaks. Well, possibly an isolated one here and there amidst a plethora of stained holes (and I'm not SURE I've even seen that).
> 
> I have no idea why the stain pattern is the way it is but I have observed it to be consistently that way.



I have seen that happen in Basswood here, sapsucker damage usually. As for ambrosia, there are many species of beetle, some more prone to carry higher amounts of fungus than others. Some beetles just leave a black ring around the hole without streaking. In soft maple, the staining spreads farther than sugar maple in most cases. The streaking can lack any holes, depending on where the tunnels are and where the lumber is cut. With out holes, it is sometimes called "false ambrosia". This term covers nearly any streaked stains without beetle bored holes.

As for staining, heartwood is already loaded with waste materials so staining usually travels less far. Little action happens, the outer ring of infection sometimes has a dark line, waste concentration reoriented in evenness, making some of the heartwood appear lighter in shade. Some of the heartwood waste ends up in the sapwood (leaching). Sapwood streaking is often bigger than heartwood, being less waste concentration to slow the spread. The tree's regular waste deposition seems to be detoured some, so a bit of it adds to the ambrosia streaking versus accumulation with the other heartwood.

Does this make it sound simpler...?..

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 2


----------



## Otterhound

In the ambrosia maple that I have cut , it is obvious that the markings from the fungus does travel beyond where the beetle was present . As such , you can easily find the marking with no bore hole . The coloration is not linear only in relation to a bore hole . It will travel north , south , east and west . It is a characteristic of the beetle and fungus , not the wood itself like bird's eye or curl/flame or quilt or waterfall ........ The cut may be beside the bore hole yet display the coloration .

Reactions: Agree 1


----------

