# Four "kinds" of Walnut?



## TXMoon (Dec 27, 2019)

There was a post a couple weeks ago about some Walnut Burl for sale and there was a lengthy discussion on the different types of walnut. I got some English Walnut blanks in today, and dug out the samples of other walnut I have to compare. I am sure it's all based on where the tree was cut.
Top Left - Carlo
Bottom Left - English
Middle - Generic Walnut labeled as "domestic hardwood"
Right - Black (thought the grain looks a lot like the Carlo)




This is one of the Walnut Burl pieces I bought




This bowl blank was sold to me as Black Walnut but it looks a lot like the English Walnut




Anyway, just thought I'd post this for some wood discussion.

Moon

Reactions: EyeCandy! 1 | Way Cool 2


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## William Tanner (Dec 27, 2019)

Don’t turn a lot of walnut but it is a highly respected wood. Heh?


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## TXMoon (Dec 27, 2019)

William Tanner said:


> Don’t turn a lot of walnut but it is a highly respected wood. Heh?


It does seem popular and readily available


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## Smitty (Dec 27, 2019)

Thanks for posting. I like turning walnut. The scent is really nice to me.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## William Tanner (Dec 27, 2019)

The club has an English walnut log. Body isn’t up to attacking that anymore. Think I know a way to get some some cut.

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## vegas urban lumber (Dec 27, 2019)

oh that carlo walnut is a sly devil

Reactions: Funny 3


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## TXMoon (Dec 27, 2019)

vegas urban lumber said:


> oh that carlo walnut is a sly devil


Is it now?


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## vegas urban lumber (Dec 27, 2019)

carlo s twin claro walnut is far a more reasonable guy

;lol

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## Nature Man (Dec 27, 2019)

Believe it is Claro Walnut vice Carlo. Chuck

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 1


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## woodtickgreg (Dec 28, 2019)

I love the smell of walnut. And the way it just pops when you apply the finish. Fairly hard, machines and sands well. It can be porous and need to be filled when finishing to have a very smooth finish. But I love to work with it.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Mike1950 (Dec 28, 2019)

I agree with Greg- Great to work with. Love the different colors it can have. and the sap- Love to use the sap.

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## Graybeard (Dec 28, 2019)

Question about sap, when you include sap in the bowl how do you keep it white? When I sand some of the dust gets into the sap wood and darkens it.


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## Mike Hill (Dec 29, 2019)

Just east of you Kevin, that little place called Seguin - you know the pecan capitol of the world - long, long, long ago it was named Walnut Springs because of all the walnuts that was once in the area. 45 years ago I helped demo a bldg near the old train depot - all the floor joists were walnut! Resawed them and made paneling for boss' living room. Turned out quite nice!

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## Mr. Peet (Dec 29, 2019)

Graybeard said:


> Question about sap, when you include sap in the bowl how do you keep it white? When I sand some of the dust gets into the sap wood and darkens it.



There are a few ways. A friend of mine, sands the sapwood first, blows it off and applies a sealer. Then he does the heartwood. Easier to say than to do. Once each are sealed, he then sands the entire and seals the entire, and repeats until happy, or satisfied.

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## TXMoon (Dec 29, 2019)

Mike Hill said:


> Just east of you Kevin, that little place called Seguin - you know the pecan capitol of the world - long, long, long ago it was named Walnut Springs because of all the walnuts that was once in the area. 45 years ago I helped demo a bldg near the old train depot - all the floor joists were walnut! Resawed them and made paneling for boss' living room. Turned out quite nice!


Wow! Doesn't it just blow your mind, Walnut floor joists. I can only imagine, I bet that paneling was gorgeous. But yea, I know Seguin, I'm out there now and then.


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## Mike Hill (Dec 30, 2019)

Yup, family still there - well except for one sister - she's lives on Canyon Lake.


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## JR Parks (Dec 30, 2019)

Mike Hill said:


> Just east of you Kevin, that little place called Seguin - you know the pecan capitol of the world - long, long, long ago it was named Walnut Springs because of all the walnuts that was once in the area. 45 years ago I helped demo a bldg near the old train depot - all the floor joists were walnut! Resawed them and made paneling for boss' living room. Turned out quite nice!



@Mike Hill Mike, What you were 10 when you did that?


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## phinds (Dec 30, 2019)

TXMoon said:


> Four "kinds" of Walnut?


Well, you've got a few of the major ones, but there are a bunch
juglans ailanthifolia
juglans australis
juglans boliviana
juglans brasiliensis
juglans californica --- claro
juglans cathayensis
juglans cinerea
juglans columbiensis
juglans domingensis
juglans fallax
juglans hindsii --- claro
juglans hirsuta
juglans honorei
juglans insularis
juglans jamaicensis
juglans major
juglans mandschurica
juglans mandshurica
juglans microcarpa
juglans mollis
juglans neotropica
juglans nigra --- black
juglans olanchana
juglans peruviana
juglans portoricensis
juglans regia --- English
juglans rupestris
juglans sieboldiana
juglans sigillata
juglans steyermarkii
juglans texana
juglans venezuelensis

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## TXMoon (Dec 30, 2019)

phinds said:


> Well, you've got a few of the major ones, but there are a bunch
> juglans ailanthifolia
> juglans australis
> juglans boliviana
> ...



Collect them all!


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## phinds (Dec 30, 2019)

TXMoon said:


> Collect them all!


Well, @Mr. Peet has more samples than anyone I know and he's "only" got about 10 of the 30 or so, so good luck getting them all.


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## Mr. Peet (Dec 30, 2019)

phinds said:


> Well, @Mr. Peet has more samples than anyone I know and he's "only" got about 10 of the 30 or so, so good luck getting them all.



I only have 7 species and 2 hybrids. I have 20 samples, showing various grain possibilities. 

I had hopes of getting all of the US walnut species via IWCS and Woodbarter, but have not yet. I have gained a few variations from Woodbarter. As discussed with a few others, many people just assume their walnut is one or another without really verifying. Many lesser knowns are just lumped as "Black walnut" and lost to the masses.

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## phinds (Dec 30, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> I only have 7 species and 2 hybrids. I have 20 samples, showing various grain possibilities.
> 
> I had hopes of getting all of the US walnut species via IWCS and Woodbarter, but have not yet. I have gained a few variations from Woodbarter. As discussed with a few others, many people just assume their walnut is one or another without really verifying. Many lesser knowns are just lumped as "Black walnut" and lost to the masses.


Mark, I've made no study of it at all, but do you have any idea how easy/hard it is to distinguish among the Juglans? I mean if someone gave a piece of Texas walnut of the type Juglans texana would I be able to tell that it wasn't just plain old black walnut?

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## Nubsnstubs (Dec 30, 2019)

Mark, do you have any of the Wanlut that grows here in Arizona. I have some from two locations 200 miles apart. If I was to look further, I'll bet I could come up with a third native spices. I know there are at least 4 Walnut Canyons here. I've been into all, but then I wasn't too interested in walnut. Elk occupied my mind in the 4th canyon. ............. Jerry (in Tucson)

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## Mr. Peet (Dec 30, 2019)

phinds said:


> Mark, I've made no study of it at all, but do you have any idea how easy/hard it is to distinguish among the Juglans? I mean if someone gave a piece of Texas walnut of the type Juglans texana would I be able to tell that it wasn't just plain old black walnut?



No, not likely Paul.


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## Mr. Peet (Dec 30, 2019)

Nubsnstubs said:


> Mark, do you have any of the Wanlut that grows here in Arizona. I have some from two locations 200 miles apart. If I was to look further, I'll bet I could come up with a third native spices. I know there are at least 4 Walnut Canyons here. I've been into all, but then I wasn't too interested in walnut. Elk occupied my mind in the 4th canyon. ............. Jerry (in Tucson)



Nope I don't Jerry.

Looking for _Juglans major_, _J. arizonica_, _J. torreyi_ and _J. elaeopyron_ from your neck of the world...


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## Mike1950 (Dec 31, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> I only have 7 species and 2 hybrids. I have 20 samples, showing various grain possibilities.
> 
> I had hopes of getting all of the US walnut species via IWCS and Woodbarter, but have not yet. I have gained a few variations from Woodbarter. As discussed with a few others, many people just assume their walnut is one or another without really verifying. Many lesser knowns are just lumped as "Black walnut" and lost to the masses.



Not to be my normal pain in the butt- but trees get planted by great gramps in 1901 farm gets sold multiple time and tree gets cut down and turned into lumber in 1997. stickered and stored in barn. I buy in 2015. How the hell do you verify what species it is.....


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## Nubsnstubs (Dec 31, 2019)

Mike1950 said:


> Not to be my normal pain in the butt- but trees get planted by great gramps in 1901 farm gets sold multiple time and tree gets cut down and turned into lumber in 1997. stickered and stored in barn. I buy in 2015. How the hell do you verify what species it is.....


 Send Mark Peet some samples. He'll tell you what you got........... Jerry (in Tucson)

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## phinds (Dec 31, 2019)

"Vouchered" samples are ones where they are taken from a known tree, and it is the TREE that shows the species. There are plenty of woods where it is impossible to tell just from the lumber itself. For example, just take the red oaks. There are many dozens of species in the U.S. and Mexico that are lumped in as red oaks and it's generally impossible to tell the difference among them unless you have the tree. I think the walnuts have the same problem, although not as extreme since, for example, you can have a piece of claro walnut that has a "look" that you just can't get with American black walnut.

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## Nubsnstubs (Dec 31, 2019)

phinds said:


> "Vouchered" samples are ones where they are taken from a known tree, and it is the TREE that shows the species. There are plenty of woods where it is impossible to tell just from the lumber itself. For example, just take the red oaks. There are many dozens of species in the U.S. and Mexico that are lumped in as red oaks and it's generally impossible to tell the difference among them unless you have the tree. I think the walnuts have the same problem, although not as extreme since, for example, you can have a piece of claro walnut that has a "look" that you just can't get with American black walnut.


Paul, if I was to go into the desert, and collect a branch of wood from a known Walnut tree because of the nuts I just collected, would that be considered a vouchered wood? ........... Jerry (in Tucson)


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## Mike Hill (Dec 31, 2019)

JR Parks said:


> @Mike Hill Mike, What you were 10 when you did that?


I wish, - notice the gray hair and santa colored beard! Was probably between high school senior and college freshman - probably 18.


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## phinds (Dec 31, 2019)

Nubsnstubs said:


> Paul, if I was to go into the desert, and collect a branch of wood from a known Walnut tree because of the nuts I just collected, would that be considered a vouchered wood? ........... Jerry (in Tucson)


If you were able to positivity identify the species based on the leaves, nuts, and other tree characteristics, then yes but you HAVE to be sure you know how to do that without inadvertently confusing it with some other walnut species that has similar characteristics. @Mr. Peet would be better able to comment on all that since I'm still dubious about those "tree" things. I'm TOLD that they are where my lumber comes from but ...

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## Mike1950 (Dec 31, 2019)

Nubsnstubs said:


> Send Mark Peet some samples. He'll tell you what you got........... Jerry (in Tucson)


I know- but my point is if Paul cannot ID- almost none of us can.... or none. and walnut is probably the most upcharged wood out there. I know I was selling Idaho grown figured walnut to local store at ridiculous high price he offered and he named it Claro and sold for twice as much.....


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## phinds (Dec 31, 2019)

Mike1950 said:


> I know- but my point is if Paul cannot ID- almost none of us can.... or none. and walnut is probably the most upcharged wood out there. I know I was selling Idaho grown figured walnut to local store at ridiculous high price he offered and he named it Claro and sold for twice as much.....


Along those lines, I once saw a comment on a wood forum by a vendor of figured wood, saying that he ALWAYS called crotch wood "flame crotch" on his sales site because that made it more valuable.

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## Mike Hill (Dec 31, 2019)

This is interesting as heck. I probably knew about 1/2 dozen juglans. Had no idea of 30! How many are U.S. natives? And I was under the mistaken impression that quercus rubra was quercus rubra. - Just reread -what I failed to see was that you meant there was a few species of quercus that are sold as Red Oak. Gotcha - like mahogany, rosewood, etc....


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## phinds (Dec 31, 2019)

Mike Hill said:


> you meant there was a few species of quercus that are sold as Red Oak.


No, there are many DOZENS, not "a few"

EDIT: I should note, in case you are not aware of it, the "red oak group" contains many Quercus species that do not have "red" in ANY of the many common names any given species is likely to have. That includes the live oaks that are in the red oak group, but of course that's a different story because you can at least break them out a live vs "normal" red by just the end grain.


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## phinds (Dec 31, 2019)

Mike Hill said:


> This is interesting as heck. I probably knew about 1/2 dozen juglans. Had no idea of 30! How many are U.S. natives?


Good question. Don't know. @Mr. Peet may have some idea.


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## Nubsnstubs (Dec 31, 2019)

Here is a Walnut tree I found while looking for rock about 7-8 years ago just below Karchner Caverns State Park. Fortunately, it's on private property last time I was there. The wash is loaded with walnut trees both below and above the road that runs across wash. The tree is on the right side right at the crossing of the road and wash. It looks dead. The wash and land to the left is private property, range land for cattle..

I'm gonna have to get back up there next year to do some more investigating.

Mark Peet, I got about 40+ galls off that tree when I first discovered it. Want one??

I love Google earth. I'd be lost without it. ............... Jerry (in Tucson)


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## phinds (Dec 31, 2019)

Mike Hill said:


> few species of quercus that are sold as Red Oak. Gotcha - like mahogany, rosewood, etc....


Well, not quite. With mahogany, there really ARE just a few. Three "American" and 4 or so "African". With the rosewoods there are quite a few but they are usually well distinguished by their common names and are sometimes (but nowhere near always) distinguishable by the face grain and/or the end grain. And, of course, the rosewoods have the same issue with common names as the red oaks in that not all rosewoods have "rosewood" in their common names. For example, I guess you MIGHT find people (in Europe maybe but not likely in the US) who would call Dalbergia retusa something like "Mexican rosewood" but everybody I've ever encountered calls it cocobolo. 

I DO have a lot of trouble distinguishing among the rosewoods, and NOBODY outside of a wood anatomy lab can tell the difference among the 3 American mahoganies.

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## TXMoon (Dec 31, 2019)

Nubsnstubs said:


> Mark Peet, I got about 40+ galls off that tree when I first discovered it. Want one??


"galls"?


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## phinds (Dec 31, 2019)

TXMoon said:


> "galls"?

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## Nubsnstubs (Dec 31, 2019)

TXMoon said:


> "galls"?


Maybe gauls, but they are the balls that grow on branches. Limb galls, tree galls. Are mostly mistaken for burls........ Someone, if I'm wrong, please correct me....... Jerry (in Tucson)

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## Mike1950 (Dec 31, 2019)

phinds said:


> "Vouchered" samples are ones where they are taken from a known tree, and it is the TREE that shows the species. There are plenty of woods where it is impossible to tell just from the lumber itself. For example, just take the red oaks. There are many dozens of species in the U.S. and Mexico that are lumped in as red oaks and it's generally impossible to tell the difference among them unless you have the tree. I think the walnuts have the same problem, although not as extreme since, for example, you can have a piece of claro walnut that has a "look" that you just can't get with American black walnut.



claro?


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## phinds (Dec 31, 2019)

possibly but I wouldn't take bets on it. I wouldn't rule out that being black walnut.


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## Mr. Peet (Dec 31, 2019)

Nubsnstubs said:


> Here is a Walnut tree I found while looking for rock about 7-8 years ago just below Karchner Caverns State Park. Fortunately, it's on private property last time I was there. The wash is loaded with walnut trees both below and above the road that runs across wash. The tree is on the right side right at the crossing of the road and wash. It looks dead. The wash and land to the left is private property, range land for cattle..
> 
> I'm gonna have to get back up there next year to do some more investigating.
> 
> ...



Walnut is prone to cankers, less common to galls. I'd like to see some pictures. Without knowing species, it would not be as useful for the collection, just for craft.


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## Mr. Peet (Dec 31, 2019)

Mike1950 said:


> Not to be my normal pain in the butt- but trees get planted by great gramps in 1901 farm gets sold multiple time and tree gets cut down and turned into lumber in 1997. stickered and stored in barn. I buy in 2015. How the hell do you verify what species it is.....



Simply, in most cases, you don't or can't. Mike, only with your vast exposure and experience can you lean toward an ID, but rarely should you place it on paper without chain of custody proof. 

Your example, chances gramps did not have any paperwork to start. Did you get any nuts with it? If so, you might be able to group it in a sub section / family of walnuts. Density can help, but not determine species on the macro level. Beyond there, not worth the time in most cases. 

Really *BIG* mis-marketing walnut item in the eastern USA is Butternut. Butternut is very rare now compared to 100 years ago. Many lumber yardman sell "butternut" that is a hybrid. Most materiel has high genetic percentages of Japanese walnut. The Asian butternut canker disease has nearly wiped out our native butternuts. The Japanese walnut is very similar and openly cross pollinates with American butternut. The hybrid offspring back-cross with what ever they can, and as the American butternut dies off, the crosses increase in Japanese genetics. Soon the assimilation of the American butternut will be all we have in the wild.

Telling the live trees apart can be done, the nuts even easier, the wood... well, not at all easy and damned near a mess with hybrids.

There are many other hybrid possibilities in the walnut families. So from the wood, little to tell, but from the standing live tree, we have a chance.

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## Mike1950 (Dec 31, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> Simply, in most cases, you don't or can't. Mike, only with your vast exposure and experience can you lean toward an ID, but rarely should you place it on paper without chain of custody proof.
> 
> Your example, chances gramps did not have any paperwork to start. Did you get any nuts with it? If so, you might be able to group it in a sub section / family of walnuts. Density can help, but not determine species on the macro level. Beyond there, not worth the time in most cases.
> 
> ...



I bought it from a nut- does that count- he sold as lumber or firewood!! I buy lumber- not trees- nor nuts-and really assume person I buy from knows less about than I do. It was a yard tree- N. Idaho. I could sell it as claro in a minute- I bet guy I sold it to did. Most miss-used word- maybe in wood world- JMO.


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## phinds (Dec 31, 2019)

Mike1950 said:


> Most miss-used word- maybe in wood world- JMO.


Well, I don't know about that. I've always thought that honor belonged to granadillo. If you have a wood from South America and you don't know what it is, just call it granadillo.

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## vegas urban lumber (Dec 31, 2019)

Nubsnstubs said:


> Here is a Walnut tree I found while looking for rock about 7-8 years ago just below Karchner Caverns State Park. Fortunately, it's on private property last time I was there. The wash is loaded with walnut trees both below and above the road that runs across wash. The tree is on the right side right at the crossing of the road and wash. It looks dead. The wash and land to the left is private property, range land for cattle..
> 
> I'm gonna have to get back up there next year to do some more investigating.
> 
> ...


as bad as this is, when i was a kid my father referred to galls or maybe onion burls on a 2" to 3" limb in pine or fir as squaw beaters. as they made nice natural mallets or clubs.

link about osu research on the issue 

https://www.nurserymag.com/article/osu-research-detection-crown-gall-disease/


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## Mr. Peet (Jan 1, 2020)

vegas urban lumber said:


> as bad as this is, when i was a kid my father referred to galls or maybe onion burls on a 2" to 3" limb in pine or fir as squaw beaters. as they made nice natural mallets or clubs.
> 
> link about osu research on the issue
> 
> https://www.nurserymag.com/article/osu-research-detection-crown-gall-disease/



I think the picture is at a graft union. See the lenticels are smaller below than on top. The gall often gets into wounds and a graft is a good spot...

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## TXMoon (Jan 1, 2020)

vegas urban lumber said:


> as bad as this is, when i was a kid my father referred to galls or maybe onion burls on a 2" to 3" limb in pine or fir as squaw beaters. as they made nice natural mallets or clubs.
> 
> link about osu research on the issue
> 
> https://www.nurserymag.com/article/osu-research-detection-crown-gall-disease/


That's cool. I can see someone making a club out of that.


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