# Shop heat?



## GeorgeS

Im not sure if this is in the right place it doesn't seem to fit in any one forum. I am in the process of setting up my shop in my two car garage. I would like to get some input on how to heat the shop. I have a kerosene heater but don't want to use it because of the smell and the open flame in a work shop worrys me a bit. Any input from you guys would be great.


----------



## DKMD

I think insulation is more important than the heat source. A wood burning stove would be handy if you can spare the space... Nice way to use up cutoffs. I went with an HVAC unit for my detached two car shop, but if it's attached to the house, you might be able to tie into existing duct work.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Mike1950

Open flame torpedo heaters have their hazards. Suck all the oxygen out of the shop. they can set things on fire. I have seen them left as temporary heat to dry the drywall- malfunction and we walked in and the whole house was black as black can be. also dust can explode. I agree with Doc- wood- pellets- gas. Lots of possibilities but start with insulation.


----------



## Mike1950

PS very nice egg stand- maybe you have better pics............


----------



## JR Custom Calls

I've went back and forth. My shop is heated with a sweater... I haven't found a solution that makes me feel comfortable, so I just dress warm. 

When I was getting a quote on replacing our heat pumps, I asked about extending a duct out to the garage. The guy said that they weren't allowed to do that because of some code, something to do with the garage, returns, etc. I also looked in to buying an extra garage door panel and piping a wood stove out through it... can't do that either. Since I have no windows in my garage, the only way I could add a wood burning stove would be to go up through the attic, beside the wall in the girls room, and through the roof. Not something I care to do. So... my alternative was convincing the wife to let me build a workshop when the funding is available.


----------



## Kevin

I had a buddy that used to like to say "There's a lot of heat in those tools. Pick them up and use them you'll stay warm." That doesn't work when it's this dang cold though. I agree with Doc and Mike. Insulation is king if you can do it. I have a big steel shop so in order for me to really make a nice warm shop I have to build a smaller shop inside of it. I was planning on doing it this winter but not going to get it done this winter. But I plan to build a 12' high shop roughly 25' by 25' inside my larger shop and call that my wood shop. It will have a pile of insulation on the ceiling and 6" walls, a wood stove and an window A/C unit maybe even a heat pump.

With a 2 car garage you have the opportunity to do the same thing. Are you able to wall the garage doors in for a dedicated shop?


----------



## GeorgeS

Thanks for the info guys. The garage is insulated pretty well. It is an attached garage. I replaced the overhead doors last year and was smart enough to buy the upgraded insulated doors. I'm thinking about either an electric or ceramic heater. I have found a few designed for 500sqft but I'm not sure how much it's gonna run me to heat the space. My current hvac is at its limit. Maybe I can look into that when the old unit is up for replacement. I might just rough it out until I can afford one of those Mitsubishi split units.

Here you go Mike. That's another obsession!
http://i208.Rule #2/albums/bb159/FastR06/food/F758CCC2-904D-413A-942C-C84829A63395_zpsosl4abc6.jpg

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Mike1950

Thanks- I am going to build something for ours this year. That looks nice!!


----------



## Kevin

GeorgeS said:


> just rough it out until I can afford one of those Mitsubishi split units.



Those are cool. We put one in my mom's beauty shop about 15 years ago right before she retired. Man they are quiet.


----------



## GeorgeS

Thank you very much! Do you spend much time on egghead forum.com? Great bunch of folks over there.


----------



## Kevin

I never heard of the egghead forum what is it about? Woodworking?

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## GeorgeS

Kevin said:


> Those are cool. We put one in my mom's beauty shop about 15 years ago right before she retired. Man they are quiet.


You are absolutely right! Now to convince the wife I need one.


----------



## GeorgeS

@Kevin, that was for @Mike1950. It would appear he is an egghead as well. I love to cook on my Big Green Egg. Best damn grill ever! That is a forum for folks that have that grill.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## Kevin

Haha okay I got ya. I think I looked into one of those and I think we had a thread here about them too. I'll have to check it out - I'm an offset firebox guy but I do like grills also. I've owned just about every kind of basic hot box at one time or another you can think of. Never had an egghead what do you like about it most?


----------



## Mike1950

GeorgeS said:


> Thank you very much! Do you spend much time on egghead forum.com? Great bunch of folks over there.



I am not but I will check it out. We have a large and a extra large. Bought them for company picnics. We love them. Smoke in the large and do everything else in the big one. Steaks at 700 degrees - we use it all seasons.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## GeorgeS

Kevin the best thing about it is you can cook both direct and indirect so you can smoke, bake or grill on it. My girls love pizza on the grill. We cook pizza quite a bit and pork of all kinds.

Reactions: Way Cool 1


----------



## Kevin

Heck you have me sold already I will definitely check them out thanks for the heads up. I guess if you cook enough food all day you could heat your shop that way.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## GeorgeS

Here are a few of our latest cooks.

http://i208.Rule #2/albums/bb159/FastR06/food/4438393F-B90C-4A1D-B157-5B084D76105E_zpst8zxxkyt.jpg

Seafood pasta
http://i208.Rule #2/albums/bb159/FastR06/food/0EFAE2D1-EB91-4A0B-8BBA-9DB9653AB39B_zpsbfazrl40.jpg

http://i208.Rule #2/albums/bb159/FastR06/food/00B5145D-0246-4559-A31B-091154460F0E_zpssp7vmy1x.jpg

http://i208.Rule #2/albums/bb159/FastR06/food/6A13F9C5-34DA-40F4-9530-D76436639BF1_zpseuoxxdy4.jpg

Nothing like a little butt.
http://i208.Rule #2/albums/bb159/FastR06/food/5FFC07A3-A391-4A90-B01A-851695DD7AC4_zpsxhkbbkos.jpg

Grilled corn salad.
http://i208.Rule #2/albums/bb159/FastR06/food/D97AFFC6-4CBD-4477-93E1-47E3B81C8042_zpsa7do9eqk.jpg

I just made myself hungry, time for a snack!

Reactions: Like 2 | EyeCandy! 6


----------



## Kevin



Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Kevin

I once drove from Bonham Texas where my parents live to Elizabeth City NC in 16 hours flat. I wonder how long it would take to get to your part of VA?

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## GeorgeS

Bring me some post oak when you come and I'll be happy to feed you!


----------



## DKMD

Kevin said:


> I once drove from Bonham Texas where my parents live to Elizabeth City NC in 16 hours flat. I wonder how long it would take to get to your part of VA?



Pick me up on your way...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## GeorgeS

I have plenty of space and love to cook so bring it on!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Kevin

DKMD said:


> Pick me up on your way...



I only stopped 3 times and that was to fill up. I typed 16 hours that was a honest to god typo I made it in 1"9" hours and that was balls to the wall. I remember the first time I made that drive was a nightmare coming down the mountains January 1st 1982 that was a riot. I was driving a 4WD Subaru wagon I wish I had it back I loved that ride.


----------



## GeorgeS

That's good time! Last time I visited my Dad in Florida before he passed I was driving my old Volvo S60R and did the trip by myself in right at 11.5 hours. It's a 12.5 hour drive when I do it with the wife and even longer with the kids. My dad was a long haul trucker, I stopped in Georgia to stretch my legs and called him with an update. He called bullshit when I told him where I was and how much longer before I got there. We bet dinner, he bought!

Loved that car!
http://i208.Rule #2/albums/bb159/FastR06/Carlisle%202010/DSC_0150.jpg

http://i208.Rule #2/albums/bb159/FastR06/Carlisle%202010/DSC_0141.jpg

Love the cars Subaru makes, just haven't fit my lifestyle. Tried to buy an STI when I bought the Volvo. The wife took one look at the back seat and said no way. When I mentioned I liked a Volvo she was sold. Little did she know it was an AWD, turbo charged, inline 5 cylinder with 300hp and 300 foot pounds of torque! That little Volvo could scoot!

Reactions: Like 1 | Way Cool 1


----------



## Foot Patrol

Not to distract all the banter and get back to the OP's question here in Texas I turn on my forge to get a little heat but I have to open the garage door to do it. Otherwise I use a small electric space heater while I am sanding. My issue is keeping cool in the spring, summer and fall.


----------



## SENC

Foot Patrol said:


> Not to distract all the banter and get back to the OP's question here in Texas I turn on my forge to get a little heat but I have to open the garage door to do it. Otherwise I use a small electric space heater while I am sanding. My issue is keeping cool in the spring, summer and fall.


Careful, Scott. Trying to get a thread back on topic can get you banned around here!

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


----------



## Foot Patrol

SENC said:


> Careful, Scott. Trying to get a thread back on topic can get you banned around here!



Can one of the mods please delete my last post.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


----------



## GeorgeS

Well there's one more reason to move the forge up on the list of needs!


----------



## NYWoodturner

@Kevin - just out of curiosity how DO you heat that beast of a steel shop? The cost of propane is killing me here.


----------



## Tony

GeorgeS said:


> Bring me some post oak when you come and I'll be happy to feed you!



I've got some if you need.



Foot Patrol said:


> I use a small electric space heater while I am sanding.



I've thought about doing this, but I worry about the sawdust catching fire. Not a problem?


----------



## Foot Patrol

Tony said:


> I've thought about doing this, but I worry about the sawdust catching fire. Not a problem?



When I am sanding in my shop I am hand sanding my blades or sanding my handles using a vacuum. I don't have much sawdust in my shop. When shaping the handles or grinding my knives I am outside.


----------



## Tony

Foot Patrol said:


> When I am sanding in my shop I am hand sanding my blades or sanding my handles using a vacuum. I don't have much sawdust in my shop. When shaping the handles or grinding my knives I am outside.



Okay, I understand now. I was thinking sanding with a sander! That makes sense!


----------



## GeorgeS

@Tony thank you for the offer! I can get some from my local BBQ shop. I was just teasing him. It's a little pricey though, they charge like $2.99 a pound if I recall correctly.


----------



## Tony

BBQ is a better use for it than woodworking I think, that stuff is hard as a rock!


----------



## gman2431

I used propane for one year and the cost about killed me. Id imagine it's the same for electric but didn't feel like finding out first hand so I went with wood. 

Stoves are great, and wood is free with a little leg work, but there is a big and I mean BIG kicker...

If that shop burns I'm out... Insurance will not cover a stove in my shop. I called other places and for the extra cost I could just run the propane almost. 

So here I was proud as Heck sitting in my warm shop talking to an insurance lady who about had a backflip when I told her about it. She even wanted to know how close to the house it was and almost sounded like they were gonna can me on the spot...

I talked her down with some fast talking and told her it wasn't installed... I just had a quote and she misunderstood me. 

Now I'm bummed big time...

So From that day forward I DO NOT leave the shop until the fire is complete ash. Really not that hard if you plan ahead. Then I go outside and pull the bottom off the T pipe and take a peak for extra piece of mind. 

Just something to think about and my experience with trying to find a warm shop.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## NYWoodturner

gman2431 said:


> I used propane for one year and the cost about killed me. Id imagine it's the same for electric but didn't feel like finding out first hand so I went with wood.
> 
> Stoves are great, and wood is free with a little leg work, but there is a big and I mean BIG kicker...
> 
> If that shop burns I'm out... Insurance will not cover a stove in my shop. I called other places and for the extra cost I could just run the propane almost.
> 
> So here I was proud as Heck sitting in my warm shop talking to an insurance lady who about had a backflip when I told her about it. She even wanted to know how close to the house it was and almost sounded like they were gonna can me on the spot...
> 
> I talked her down with some fast talking and told her it wasn't installed... I just had a quote and she misunderstood me.
> 
> Now I'm bummed big time...
> 
> So From that day forward I DO NOT leave the shop until the fire is complete ash. Really not that hard if you plan ahead. Then I go outside and pull the bottom off the T pipe and take a peak for extra piece of mind.
> 
> Just something to think about and my experience with trying to find a warm shop.


Good info Cody - is that just for woodturning stoves or does it include a pellet stove as well? I am installing a pellet stove in mine...


----------



## Kevin

NYWoodturner said:


> @Kevin - just out of curiosity how DO you heat that beast of a steel shop? The cost of propane is killing me here.



I heat it by staying inside the house. Seriously it's 25 degrees heading to 16. First day today that it won't get above freezing. I supposed to go out and get pics of some wood for Danny but ptobably ain't gonna happen. I have a 2-story Voglezang but it doesn't heat the shop just keep thaws you out when you take a break to go sit seside it. Also have a couple huge torpedo heaters but with as much dust and debris in there right now no way I would run them.

When it's this cold I do all my woodworking on the computer.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


----------



## gman2431

Scott, I'm not sure. 

A call to your insurance would be the best option and tell them your plans you are thinking of doing. 

I also took extreme care to go one step further than the building codes when installing for extra safety and piece of mind. 

I have no worries about a fire honestly. Its just a caution and it does happen. 

I went almost 4ft out from any standing wall, 3ft is the recommended without a standoff wall. With a standoff I believe it's 18 inches. Then went over the 3 times the diameter pipe rule from anything. 

Now those numbers sounds huge to anyone who has messed with installing wood stoves before. Trust me my dad about back flipped himself like the insurance lady when he seen it. But.... If it burns it burns. I wasn't taking any chances.


----------



## TimR

Well, I guess I've gotta get one of those Green Eggs!
George, a few years ago I decided to replace my portable kerosene heater with electric. My shop is 16x28 (outside dim) and I think looking at most heaters it indicated need for 7.5 kW, but mine is 5 kW and does fine on the coldest days here. I usually leave it down to 50F or so and just turn up when I go into the shop. Typically any chill is gone in 15-20 minutes or so.


----------



## Foot Patrol

Darn you all need to invest in some radiators. In the day, they could put off some heat. Not sure how economical it would be to put one in a shop now or if they even sell them anymore.


----------



## GeorgeS

@TimR That is exactly what I've been looking at. How bad does it chew up electricity? Fortunately code requires the builders in my area to finish the garage space so I'm insulated all around. I just need to keep my tools from being so cold they don't want to work well.


----------



## TimR

GeorgeS said:


> @TimR That is exactly what I've been looking at. How bad does it chew up electricity? Fortunately code requires the builders in my area to finish the garage space so I'm insulated all around. I just need to keep my tools from being so cold they don't want to work well.


Hard to say. I have a separate service to my shop, with a minimum monthly charge. I'd guess the contribution for heating in coldest months at about $40 - $50 or so.


----------



## JR Custom Calls

I wonder if you can run a radiator(s) on one of those outdoor wood burning units? From the little I've seen of them, it looks like they feed water through the system, heating it, then pushing it in the house to blow like a heat pump.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## TimR

JR Custom Calls said:


> I wonder if you can run a radiator(s) on one of those outdoor wood burning units? From the little I've seen of them, it looks like they feed water through the system, heating it, then pushing it in the house to blow like a heat pump.


Jonathan, I checked out a booth at a log home show last summer that had those units there. They look like a pretty sweet way to heat the home or shop, or both. They aren't cheap, at least not the ones I saw. Upward of about $10k, but can't recall what that included. You can pretty much just replace or install an alternate (better idea as a backup is kept) heat exchanger in a forced air system with one that uses water vs freon. As demand is drawn on the system, it will open to admit more air to the fire to get it burning hotter.


----------



## JR Custom Calls

That seems like a good way to remain insurable... while still using a fuel source that most of us probably have lots of.


----------



## woodintyuuu

TimR said:


> Jonathan, I checked out a booth at a log home show last summer that had those units there. They look like a pretty sweet way to heat the home or shop, or both. They aren't cheap, at least not the ones I saw. Upward of about $10k, but can't recall what that included. You can pretty much just replace or install an alternate (better idea as a backup is kept) heat exchanger in a forced air system with one that uses water vs freon. As demand is drawn on the system, it will open to admit more air to the fire to get it burning hotter.


I use a outdoor boiler somewhat like you fellas are describing. My unit is rated for 400,000 btu I heat my shop 3000 sq ft, my drying devices, my house heat and domestic hot water. The outdoor boiler uses about 20 government cords of wood to heat from October to June. It is zero here this week high of about 8 degrees F. As for Jonathons comment about having lots of scrap to feed it, I do not have any scrap (i sell it to you knucleheads here). Only kidding! If you live up north they are pretty much a must. I use combination of forced air through an exchanger and house is baseboard. @Kevin , @SENC how did I do with this post Im a pretty quick learner after all LOL

Reactions: Great Post 1 | Funny 2


----------



## Kevin

woodintyuuu said:


> . @Kevin , @SENC how did I do with this post Im a pretty quick learner after all LOL



i dunno looks like a lot of wasted time on periods capitals and stuff what do you think henry

Reactions: Funny 4


----------



## GeorgeS

Those wood fired boiler systems are awesome! I have a family friend that lives on a good sized piece of property in West Va and a lot of folks up there have systems like that. Big wood fired unit outside with a water jacket around it, water is circulated through the pipes to radiators or to under floor heating tubes by a pump motor. The cool thing is you can install thermostats in each room and there are gate valves that open and close to allow more water to flow to the cooler
Rooms. Very cool systems modeled after the old school boilers but have been modernized. Way to pricey for
me and my shop though.


----------



## Steve Walker

We put in an outdoor wood boiler 5 years ago, haven't bought a bit of LP gas since. When using our annual heat bill as the "payment", ours was paid for in 2 1/2 yrs. You just have to enjoy cutting wood in order to claim almost free heat, there is still saw gas, bar oil, and hauling, but these are minimal compared to LP. If you're going to have to buy wood, then the time to recover your cost would be extended waaaay out.
When I built my shop, I tied in to the return line from the house to a small heat exchanger with a thermostatically controlled fan. I figure that I'm usually getting at least 150* water to the shop. Nice and toasty even on sub zero days.
The beauty of it all is, you only have to add heat exchangers to your existing heating system. For a forced air system, you add an exchanger in the supply duct, and typically add a second thermostat to control the furnace fan only, then turn the main thermostat back to act as a backup in case the fire goes out, or you go away for a few days. We have hot water baseboards, so the exchanger was put in the supply water line of the system. The hot water heater is next, once done, as long as there is fire in the box, we'll NEVER run out of hot water.


----------



## woodintyuuu

Steve Walker said:


> We put in an outdoor wood boiler 5 years ago, haven't bought a bit of LP gas since. When using our annual heat bill as the "payment", ours was paid for in 2 1/2 yrs. You just have to enjoy cutting wood in order to claim almost free heat, there is still saw gas, bar oil, and hauling, but these are minimal compared to LP. If you're going to have to buy wood, then the time to recover your cost would be extended waaaay out.
> When I built my shop, I tied in to the return line from the house to a small heat exchanger with a thermostatically controlled fan. I figure that I'm usually getting at least 150* water to the shop. Nice and toasty even on sub zero days.
> The beauty of it all is, you only have to add heat exchangers to your existing heating system. For a forced air system, you add an exchanger in the supply duct, and typically add a second thermostat to control the furnace fan only, then turn the main thermostat back to act as a backup in case the fire goes out, or you go away for a few days. We have hot water baseboards, so the exchanger was put in the supply water line of the system. The hot water heater is next, once done, as long as there is fire in the box, we'll NEVER run out of hot water.


Steve that was a very good description, I would have made it a lot more complicated. In my case i do purchase wood. I buy it buy the semitruckload delivered for $750 per load. It is ash, oak,maple and various northern hardwoods that for a reason or another do not suit the mills. I use approx 17 to 20 cords per year, It would not make any sense for me to go cut that amount of wood. Way to much time away from shop for the return. The zones on my stove are all plummed to dedicated circulator pumps. 150degrees on the return line would tax me too much. I have 190 foot run from stove to house. This line is insulated with 16 inches of spray foam. I have a 3 degree temp drop from stove to house . My shop run is only 10 ft. We let the exchanger in the shop have circulating water all times and have a thermo
fan that comes on when we turn it up in am to go to work. I have to keep the iron warmer than outside at all times or the shop does not warm up at all. So my heat bill ends up being around $1200 to $1500 per year. When we did the math if we only heated the house the system was break even over 7 years, with the shop heat and domestic hot water And
Greenhouse (Car Radiator with fan) we had a 2 year break even point . That was with purchasing wood! It is free heat to my shop. They are amazing. They also allow me to heat with wood and still have insurance. cl


----------



## GeorgeS

Soooo jealous!


----------



## Mike Mills

I'm coming in very late but it looks like you have siding?
For about $900 the through the wall units do a good job for that size. (Think strip motels)
Able to cool it down a little in the hot summer also without much of a bill.


----------

