# First attempt and failure



## norman vandyke (Nov 14, 2015)

Here's my first try at making a knife. Started with a micro cleaver blank. Cut off a portion to make a small drop point. Haven't got around to reshaping the grip but the finger grooves will be gone. I already know where I went wrong here but please offer any advice on something I may have missed. 

Started the bevel grinding with my weak side, since you folks seem too suggest that to beginners. That side went great. I was plunging the blade in water for a few seconds after every other grind to keep it from getting too hot. Plunge line looked great. 

I moved into the other side, this is where it went wrong. I didn't have my grinder adjusted properly, so there was no belt overhang to create a good plunge line. The water dripping from the blade was getting absorbed by my beveling jig(a 1x1 piece of box elder, which probably changed shape while grinding). I'm going to switch to a much longer jig next time and dry the blade between grinds. Going to make sure to adjust the belt before switching sides. My stupid attempt to fix the plunge line problem was to get rid of it entirely(wrong choice). 

Anyway, I think I can fix this blade by knocking of about 1/4" of edge and starting the bevel over with the fixes in place. You might also notice I ground it to an edge. That was my final mistake. I'll stop that now.

Reactions: Like 2 | Way Cool 1


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## robert flynt (Nov 14, 2015)

All ways scribe two lines about .o30 apart, down the center of the edge side of the blade. this will let you know where to stop your grind. When removing the mill scale grind the blade length wise, it will help keep the surface and prevent rounding the edges. Keep a rag on your belt and dry wipe the blade every time you cool it. Those j weight belts will curl up to almost the point you can use them again if the get wet. Put some painters tape around the blade where you want to stop your plunge.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## David Van Asperen (Nov 14, 2015)

Norm,
Tried to make a knife once ended up buying a blade and trying to make a handle for it and that never got finished. I have often thought of giving it another try. It looks like you have taken that step and I am really looking forward to seeing how this knife turns out. I do not see any failure yet, and it will not be unless you do not finish the project ( like I did not).
Dave

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## norman vandyke (Nov 14, 2015)

David Van Asperen said:


> Norm,
> Tried to make a knife once ended up buying a blade and trying to make a handle for it and that never got finished. I have often thought of giving it another try. It looks like you have taken that step and I am really looking forward to seeing how this knife turns out.
> Dave


Thanks. I'm looking forward to all the practice I'm going to be getting this winter. I have a few circular saw blades begging to be grinder fodder. I know the steel isn't right for a knife blade but they'll do fine for a guy just learning.

Reactions: Like 2


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## ripjack13 (Nov 14, 2015)

I was wondering when you were going to start on that lil sucker. You got further than I have....

Cant wait to see it all dressed up.


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## NYWoodturner (Nov 15, 2015)

Great first Norm. You are really paying attention to details and articulating your mistakes well. You are going to really shorten your learning curve.

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Creative 1


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## norman vandyke (Nov 15, 2015)

robert flynt said:


> All ways scribe two lines about .o30 apart, down the center of the edge side of the blade. this will let you know where to stop your grind. When removing the mill scale grind the blade length wise, it will help keep the surface and prevent rounding the edges. Keep a rag on your belt and dry wipe the blade every time you cool it. Those j weight belts will curl up to almost the point you can use them again if the get wet. Put some painters tape around the blade where you want to stop your plunge.


I'm not sure I can do a length-wise grind for removing the mill scale. Grinder's just too small for that. When should I remove the scale? Before starting anything else or later in the process? I'm meant to mark my stopping point on the edge but forgot. I'm gonna be using painter's tape for the plunge line. Never thought of that and I don't think I've seen it done before. Thanks!


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## ClintW (Nov 15, 2015)

I would say not bad, if not pretty good! Nice shape and overall flow. It seems your mistakes aren't really errors in your skill and understanding, but just minor slipups in your routine ( which isn't established well yet, don't sweat it). 
For grindig jig, I would personally go the route of angle iron with a tapped bolt and holder nut. ( or even weld the nut on for threads on the jig).
I grabbed a photo online of the design concept. You can easily swap out the front plate for a small clamp.


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## norman vandyke (Nov 15, 2015)

ClintW said:


> I would say not bad, if not pretty good! Nice shape and overall flow. It seems your mistakes aren't really errors in your skill and understanding, but just minor slipups in your routine ( which isn't established well yet, don't sweat it).
> For grindig jig, I would personally go the route of angle iron with a tapped bolt and holder nut. ( or even weld the nut on for threads on the jig).
> I grabbed a photo online of the design concept. You can easily swap out the front plate for a small clamp.
> View attachment 91154


I was planning in going with a small clamp to hold the blade in place from now on. Definitely going to use the bolt to change the angle instead of cutting the angle off the wood. I think I'll still be using wood for a while though. I don't have any scrap angle iron lying around right now. I'm sure I'll find some lying around somewhere though.


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## norman vandyke (Nov 15, 2015)

A little fixing done. Not sure I can get the plunge line just right now that I screwed it up trying to fix it the other day. Just need to go through to 800 grit now and I think I'll be happy with the finished results. Should probably get the handle shaped the way I want before going further though. Don't want to scratch up a nice finish during the process. Haha 

The plunge lines are a little off from each other. Something I need to work on for next time. I suppose I could draw the other side's line back some to match.


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## norman vandyke (Nov 15, 2015)

Changes to handle implemented and blade ground down to 800g. I know the bevel isn't prefect but I think I feel comfortable adding the scales after a little sanding down of the handle edges.

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## norman vandyke (Nov 15, 2015)

And desert ironwood burl will complete the handle.

Reactions: Way Cool 1


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## Woodman (Nov 15, 2015)

Norm, very nice. Keep in mind that if you're not totally satisfied with the lines, you can always just make it a full flat grind and then both sides will be perfect.


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## norman vandyke (Nov 15, 2015)

Woodman said:


> Norm, very nice. Keep in mind that if you're not totally satisfied with the lines, you can always just make it a full flat grind and then both sides will be perfect.


That's not a bad idea. Anyone know how to get rid of that smoky look on the blade? I assume you knife wizards know what I'm talking about. I know it's not from overheating. Maybe I need to get a polisher and buff the crap out of it?


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## Foot Patrol (Nov 15, 2015)

Norm first make sure that you drill the holes you want in the handle before you heat treat. 

I don't know what belts you have but you should try to clean up all the course grit scratches before moving to hand sanding. If you want a nice satin finish you should hand sand the blade and ricasso area. I would recommend the following grits: 120, 240, 320, 400 and finish with 600. You want to alternate the direction you are sanding between each grit and must make sure that you get all the grind lines out before moving to the next grit. This will also help clean up the high and low spots from the grind. I use a 10X magnifier to make sure I get all the scratches out. The plunge area will probably be the hardest area to clean up. If you do not get all the scratches out you will see them as you move up in sanding. If you find them you will have to go back with a lower grit to get it our before moving forward again.


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## robert flynt (Nov 15, 2015)

norman vandyke said:


> I'm not sure I can do a length-wise grind for removing the mill scale. Grinder's just too small for that. When should I remove the scale? Before starting anything else or later in the process? I'm meant to mark my stopping point on the edge but forgot. I'm gonna be using painter's tape for the plunge line. Never thought of that and I don't think I've seen it done before. Thanks!


If it were me, I would do the first grind and drill all the holes, then grind the surface using 220 a grit belt, if the surface is not to rough. After that go to the 400 grit after that grind go back and finish grinding the blade to 220 grit or better before heat treating.


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## norman vandyke (Nov 15, 2015)

robert flynt said:


> If it were me, I would do the first grind and drill all the holes, then grind the surface using 220 a grit belt, if the surface is not to rough. After that go to the 400 grit after that grind go back and finish grinding the blade to 220 grit or better before heat treating.


Any recommendations as far as tempering? I know with this 1095, I need to get it up to non-magnetic(around 1500 F), then a quench in oil. Follow that by two shifts of two hours in an oven around 450-500 as soon as possible after quench to prevent cracking. What should I use to do the first heat to 1500? No equipment for it right now, so I'll have to go buy it all. I'll also need to get better drill bits. Don't think the cheap ones I got at hf will do it. Haha


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## norman vandyke (Nov 15, 2015)

Foot Patrol said:


> Norm first make sure that you drill the holes you want in the handle before you heat treat.
> 
> I don't know what belts you have but you should try to clean up all the course grit scratches before moving to hand sanding. If you want a nice satin finish you should hand sand the blade and ricasso area. I would recommend the following grits: 120, 240, 320, 400 and finish with 600. You want to alternate the direction you are sanding between each grit and must make sure that you get all the grind lines out before moving to the next grit. This will also help clean up the high and low spots from the grind. I use a 10X magnifier to make sure I get all the scratches out. The plunge area will probably be the hardest area to clean up. If you do not get all the scratches out you will see them as you move up in sanding. If you find them you will have to go back with a lower grit to get it our before moving forward again.


Thank you for reminding me about the drilling prior to heat treating. Would have made for some broken bits, I would think.


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## Foot Patrol (Nov 15, 2015)

norman vandyke said:


> Any recommendations as far as tempering? I know with this 1095, I need to get it up to non-magnetic(around 1500 F), then a quench in oil. Follow that by two shifts of two hours in an oven around 450-500 as soon as possible after quench to prevent cracking. What should I use to do the first heat to 1500? No equipment for it right now, so I'll have to go buy it all. I'll also need to get better drill bits. Don't think the cheap ones I got at hf will do it. Haha



I am sure Robert will have some sage advice here. There are a lot of plans on the web on how to build a gas forge. If you buy one they are some coin. Another alternative is to send it to a company that can do your heat treating for you. They usually charge about $15 bucks per knife.

The tempering you listed is pretty high. I would recommend two 2-hour cycles at 375 degrees. Let the knife cool to room temperature between cycles.

Carbide bits are your friend.

Scott

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 1


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## robert flynt (Nov 16, 2015)

norman vandyke said:


> Any recommendations as far as tempering? I know with this 1095, I need to get it up to non-magnetic(around 1500 F), then a quench in oil. Follow that by two shifts of two hours in an oven around 450-500 as soon as possible after quench to prevent cracking. What should I use to do the first heat to 1500? No equipment for it right now, so I'll have to go buy it all. I'll also need to get better drill bits. Don't think the cheap ones I got at hf will do it. Haha


If there is a boiler repair company near you buy a soft ( white ) high temp. boiler brick and I can tell you how to make a one brick forge, the bricks can also be ordered from a blacksmith supply company. If you don't have access to a oxy./ act rig you might be able to get a turbo torch and use map gas to get it hot enough, not sure. To harden 1095 heat to 1425-1475 deg. soak 8-10 min. then quench in thin oil. Temper at 425-450 1hr x 2 for Rc 59-60. 375 deg. will also work but I would flex test edge on a brass rod to see if the edge chips. If the edge is brittle bump it up to 400-425 deg. temper it again and retest the edge.

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Informative 1


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## norman vandyke (Nov 16, 2015)

robert flynt said:


> If there is a boiler repair company near you buy a soft ( white ) high temp. boiler brick and I can tell you how to make a one brick forge, the bricks can also be ordered from a blacksmith supply company. If you don't have access to a oxy./ act rig you might be able to get a turbo torch and use map gas to get it hot enough, not sure. To harden 1095 heat to 1425-1475 deg. soak 8-10 min. then quench in thin oil. Temper at 425-450 1hr x 2 for Rc 59-60. 375 deg. will also work but I would flex test edge on a brass rod to see if the edge chips. If the edge is brittle bump it up to 400-425 deg. temper it again and retest the edge.


For future reference, in your opinion, what is the easiest steel to temper that will have good function/toughness?


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## robert flynt (Nov 16, 2015)

norman vandyke said:


> For future reference, in your opinion, what is the easiest steel to temper that will have good function/toughness?


Of the simple steel, 1084 is pretty for giving as far as heat treat. If you want tough I would go with 5160 steel and the heat treat isn't complicated.


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## norman vandyke (Nov 16, 2015)

robert flynt said:


> Of the simple steel, 1084 is pretty for giving as far as heat treat. If you want tough I would go with 5160 steel and the heat treat isn't complicated.


Does 5160 hold an edge well though? I assume the 60 means .6% carbon.


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## robert flynt (Nov 16, 2015)

Not as well as 1095 but it will take more abuse that 1084 and 1095. If a customer asks me for a knife that is non- stainless I use 52100 steel which is a very good alloy steel commonly used to make ball bearings.


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