# First shotgun



## frankp (Aug 7, 2015)

I'm thinking of buying a .410 but wanted to see what folks recommend. I've only ever shot a bolt action .410 that my brother currently has. I want something my 6 year old will be able to shoot reasonably in the next couple of years and I don't own any shotguns that fit in that category. 

Recommendations for particular models you like (or dislike)?


----------



## SENC (Aug 7, 2015)

I generally dislike .410s as first guns because they are so ballistically crappy that it is hard to hit what you're aiming at unless a good shot. Their only real advantage is size and weight, the latter of which becomes a disadvantage in offsetting kick.

I would suggest looking for a 28 gauge. Be sure to search for a true 28, not a 28 built on a 20g frame, if you want it to be light. 28s are much better ballistically than 410s - in fact, many would say they're better ballistically than 20s. You may spend more on a 28 than a 410, but you'll have a gun your son will enjoy shooting forever.

When I was in your shoes I searched for a couple years for an old Browning Superposed over/under 28 "for my son". You can find them periodicallym though they can range from exhorbitant prices to moderate prices depending on grade and condition. I love mine (his).

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 1


----------



## ripjack13 (Aug 7, 2015)

The mossberg 510 mini super bantam...410 g..
http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/youth-500-505-510/

I have one for my wife. She loves it. It's small enough for her and the recoil on it is very light. If you buy it new they give you a coupon for another stock to move up to normal size as he progresses. The one that comes with it lop is 10-1/2 to 11-1/2" ..great size for kids.

http://mossbergowners.com/forum/index.php?forums/mossberg-510-mini.19/

shameless plug for the other forum I moderate on...

whatever you end up getting all I ask is you don't support cheaper than dirt. They are a shameful company only out for a buck, and when all this ammo scare went down they raised their prices by 300%..

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Informative 1


----------



## frankp (Aug 7, 2015)

Thanks, ripjack. I got my (then) 16 year old daughter a 500 in 20 gauge a few years back. I didn't realize they made them in 410 also. The bantam was too small for her so we just got the full size stock. Nice little guns.

I've never heard of "cheaper than dirt" so no worries about supporting them. I'm likely to buy at the next gun show that comes around. We usually have one every month or two literally across a parking lot from my office.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Kevin (Aug 7, 2015)

Frank, I have never liked the .410 although I am in the minority. I would start him right out on a 20 gauge. Not just because it's what I started on at about his same age ... but also because you can buy some really light loads for a 20. I was started out on no. 7 1/2 dove but you could start him out on some light loads and get him used to the actual gun he'll use to hunt. And a 20 ga is a fine platform. Many grown men shoot a 20 and have all their lives and bagged as many foul and feather as their 12 ga buddies. JMO.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## frankp (Aug 7, 2015)

Kevin, I agree, the 20 is a fine platform. It's what I bought my daughter and I really like shooting hers. I grew up with a .410 and a 16 gauge and really liked the .410 for rabbits and grouse hunting in Maine. Not sure it's a great option for our local stomping grounds but I'll ask around a bit for folks that hunt small game here as well. 

I think my son will start out with hunting squirrels and likely will be more successful with a shotgun than the .22 we have. Our current 20 gauge is too big for him though.

Thanks for the input.


----------



## frankp (Aug 7, 2015)

SENC, somehow I missed your post. Any idea on availability and price of 28 gauge shells? I can't say as I've ever seen any, though I have heard of them before.


----------



## JR Custom Calls (Aug 7, 2015)

My first shotgun was a .410... I definitely put a hurting on the squirrel population back home. I'll NEVER let that gun go, means too much. That said, I think a 20 is a much more versatile gun. A youth model 870 or 500 will accommodate a child or a small framed woman. My wife really likes her 500 youth.

JMO, but 28 gauge is a lot harder to come by both in guns and ammo. Availability of choke tubes is also something to keep in mind. Not sure what the plans are exactly, but a 20 will be a good all around gun for everything from deer (slugs), turkey, squirrel, rabit, birds... pretty much anything. In fact, I have seen quite a few guys I know that have started carrying a 20 for spring turkey, because they're a little lighter and just as deadly. .410 is a little on the small side, and a lot of states don't even allow a .410 for turkey (though, with the loads made today, a .410 is a very capable turkey gun, and several states are starting to allow it).

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 1


----------



## SENC (Aug 7, 2015)

I dont have any harder time finding 28g shells than 410 shells - but I generally order shells online anyway. 28g is a VERY popular skeet range gauge (though generally they are 28g barrels or barrel inserts on 12 or 20g frames), so any gun club is likely to have them, and I see AAs in 28g at Walmart and Dicks not infrequently. I'll go against the others on the 20g, too, though better than a 410 in my mind. I still have the 410 side-by-side and 20g A-5 that were my first guns, but never shoot them other than to be reminded how bad they kick for what they discharge and how inaccurately they pattern with lead (disproportionately long shot columns and high charges increase recoil and pellet deformation, relative to 16s and 12s, for example). If I could only have 2 shotgun gauges, they'd be 28 and 16.

As to choke - interestingly most guidance I've read on both 410 and 28g suggests a full choke has optimal patterns at skeet range distances, suggesting there may not be the same value in choke changes for these as for larfer gauges. I hve never testwd to confirm, but my 28g is choked full/full and I have no problems at the range nor with dove (unless high passing).


----------



## Kevin (Aug 7, 2015)

Henry on paper that all sounds good but it's hard to argue with results. 20s and 12s are proven and effective. Your argument reminds me of the guys who argue that high velocity cartridges are more deadly than a standard velocity -- and invariably they argue that the old outdated .30/30 is obsolete by comparison.

I'm sure the 16 & 28 ga are excellent gauges and I would love to have one of each. But both of the above arguments fly in the face of history and real world experience. The .30/30 will never be surpassed in taking whitetails, and contrary to your reasoning against its effectiveness the 20 ga is not a flawed gauge nor will the 28 or 16 ga ever surpass it in any aspect except maybe skeet shooting.

Buying a young child a 16 or 28 ga and saying it is a smarter and more practical choice than a 20 ga is not thinking outside the box, it is standing outside the box and not thinking. No disrespect my friend it is just my opinion.


----------



## Drgam (Aug 7, 2015)

I am not going to enter into the gauge argument, its as bad as politics and religion. I will only say my first gun was a Stevens model 311 410 double and it put a lot of pheasants, rabbits, and squirrel on the dinner table. I love that gun and still have it today. Many people have tried to buy it but its not for sale. Once you learn how to kill with a 410 anything bigger is a piece of cake.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Kevin (Aug 7, 2015)

Dana a lot of it is "we like what we were trained on" so there's really no right or wrong per se like there is in politics. In politic however, I am always right and everyone else is always wrong.


----------



## GeauxGameCalls (Aug 7, 2015)

Whatever you do, do not buy a Rossi 410. It was my first shotgun and it kicks as much as my current 12. I was shooting hevi metal #4 I believe and it would just about knock me down every shot but it would knock down the same amount of birds as the other guys I was hunting with that shot 12's because it was a full choke and it was pretty much a slug coming out of that gun. I have to say it did help me with being able to shoot a 30-06 and a 12 at 14. Recoil never did bother me I guess it was from learning with the Rossi. 

P.S the 22 barrel I had with mine is not accurate at all.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## SENC (Aug 7, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Henry on paper that all sounds good but it's hard to argue with results. 20s and 12s are proven and effective. Your argument reminds me of the guys who argue that high velocity cartridges are more deadly than a standard velocity -- and invariably they argue that the old outdated .30/30 is obsolete by comparison.
> 
> I'm sure the 16 & 28 ga are excellent gauges and I would love to have one of each. But both of the above arguments fly in the face of history and real world experience. The .30/30 will never be surpassed in taking whitetails, and contrary to your reasoning against its effectiveness the 20 ga is not a flawed gauge nor will the 28 or 16 ga ever surpass it in any aspect except maybe skeet shooting.
> 
> Buying a young child a 16 or 28 ga and saying it is a smarter and more practical choice than a 20 ga is not thinking outside the box, it is standing outside the box and not thinking. No disrespect my friend it is just my opinion.




None perceived and my opinion and recommendation on what to buy is just mine, too. If you want to argue results, though, just get out some paper and start shooting. It is impossible to argue that the 20g and .410 aren't the worst 2 gauges ballistically with lead bird shot at small bird/skeet ranges. I'm not saying you can't shoot a 20 well - many can (and I can). I am saying it is undeniably more difficult (fewer pellets on target with more recoil per pellet on target) than a properly sized and balanced 12, 16, or even 28 at 25-35 yards with lead bird shot (though a hell of a lot easier than a .410).

Frank - As I see it, there are 2 ways to think about guns for new shooters: 1 - pick a gun that if they can learn to hit anything with it then they will be excellent with any gun; or 2 - pick the gun with which they have the greatest chance of success out of the gate to build confidence. My dad was in the former camp, and while it worked it was painful (for both of us). I think the latter strategy is more fun and more likely to have good results. It has worked with my kids, including my girls. If you believe the former (all other things being equal), choose a 410 over a 28 or a 20 over a 12. Go in reverse if you believe the latter. Of course, all other things are not equal, so cost and availability (among other things) do need to factor in your decision. Ultimately, your son will love any shooting he gets to do with dad, so all of the above is just splitting hairs in the long run. I do prefer o/u double or single barrel guns over autos for kids for safety reasons.

Kevin - I won't argue against a 12 - it is a great gauge and I would choose it for a new shooter before a 20 if properly sized (length and weight) because they kick the same or less than a 20 (if using light cartridges) and pattern better - both keys to hitting what you aim at. I bought my wife a Beretta gas auto 12g when she wanted to start and it was ideal - almost no kick at all with light shells and good patterns even with a 26" barrel. 

I shoot 12s predominantly. My love for the 16 is simply that it allows for a lighter (20g like) weight with recoil and patterning more like a 12g - kind of the best of both worlds. Unfortunately, it never really caught on and is now more of an oddity than any of the other gauges.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## HomeBody (Aug 8, 2015)

If the kid is a natural and a good shot a .410 will do just fine. If the kid is green I'd go for a 20 ga. The fit of the gun is more important than the gauge. My first shotgun was a 20 ga. I still shoot 20 ga. guns. I have one 12 ga. and one 16 ga. but seldom use them. I'm a good wing shot and a 20 is all I need for doves, pheasants, quail. Parker Gun Co. came out with the 28 ga. and also the 14 ga. Both experimental and never really caught on like the 12 and 20. The 16 ga. was more popular than the 20 ga. in the early 20th century. Both started out 2 9/16" chamber length instead of the updated 2 3/4" size we now know. There are far more 16 ga. M-12 Winchesters that 20 ga. in prewar guns. Gary

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Kevin (Aug 9, 2015)

SENC said:


> None perceived and my opinion and recommendation on what to buy is just mine, too. If you want to argue results, though, just get out some paper and start shooting. It is impossible to argue that the 20g and .410 aren't the worst 2 gauges ballistically with lead bird shot at small bird/skeet ranges. I'm not saying you can't shoot a 20 well - many can (and I can). I am saying it is undeniably more difficult (fewer pellets on target with more recoil per pellet on target) than a properly sized and balanced 12, 16, or even 28 at 25-35 yards with lead bird shot (though a hell of a lot easier than a .410).
> 
> Frank - As I see it, there are 2 ways to think about guns for new shooters: 1 - pick a gun that if they can learn to hit anything with it then they will be excellent with any gun; or 2 - pick the gun with which they have the greatest chance of success out of the gate to build confidence. My dad was in the former camp, and while it worked it was painful (for both of us). I think the latter strategy is more fun and more likely to have good results. It has worked with my kids, including my girls. If you believe the former (all other things being equal), choose a 410 over a 28 or a 20 over a 12. Go in reverse if you believe the latter. Of course, all other things are not equal, so cost and availability (among other things) do need to factor in your decision. Ultimately, your son will love any shooting he gets to do with dad, so all of the above is just splitting hairs in the long run. I do prefer o/u double or single barrel guns over autos for kids for safety reasons.
> 
> ...



Henry you would be an excellent hospital administrator. 

Turn me loose in a field with a 410 which I don't care for and you in the same field with a 12 ga or your other choice and let's see who comes out with more meat (and no you cannot use a south Texas guide). I will never argue theory and pellet patterns with you though because you will dominate me every time -- you seem to have made a lot of holes in paper targets or at least read a lot of articles about it. I will never win that debate. 

I was never a clay or paper shooter I brought meat and fish home as a passion not a science or theory or magazine article that someone else wrote. I stand by my reasoning for a first gun.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## frankp (Aug 9, 2015)

My brother seems to concur with the 20 gauge recommendation. Apparently my nephews and my brother's friends' kids and now grandkids all learned on a cut down bantam 20 gauge. Apparently my brother doesn't even own the .410 anymore. Looks like I've got some options for the next gun show. Thanks, everyone.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## SENC (Aug 9, 2015)

Kevin said:


> let's see who comes out with more meat



Does leprechaun meat count? 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that any of them can't be deadly - they can. Only that some are easier than others, and for a novice shooter I like to put the odds in their favor.

Kind of like saying a 9mm is crappy for home protection because smaller bullets means less stopping power.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## HomeBody (Aug 10, 2015)

SENC said:


> Kind of like saying a 9mm is crappy for home protection because smaller bullets means less stopping power.


----------



## Kevin (Aug 10, 2015)

SENC said:


> Does leprechaun meat count?



I deserved that. Methinks I was a tad harsh on you.


----------



## SENC (Aug 10, 2015)

Kevin said:


> I deserved that. Methinks I was a tad harsh on you.


No way, Kevin. I took it in the spirit intended. And if you intended to be an arse I took it the other way. I'm pretty certain we were both partially digging into our positions just to provoke the other. At least I was.

Reactions: +Karma 1


----------



## SENC (Aug 16, 2015)

Came across this article this evening while looking for something else. Brister's work, which they referenced, is some of my "favorite", but this more recent work revealed a few surprises. Sorry, nothing about 28s or 16s - but does show the difference between a 20 and a 410 that several mentioned. 
http://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/hunting/2013/08/truth-about-shogun-ammo

Reactions: Like 1


----------

