# Casting the honeycomb pen blank... from the beginning.



## rocky1

Or, how to go from a pile of supplies sitting in boxes, to blanks on the table in 30 hours or less!!

For all you guys putting this casting thing off thinking it is difficult, like I was doing, just go ahead and do it guys! It really isn't tough, no matter how much you may have disliked chemistry in school!

First off though... A ton of thanks go out to @Schroedc for taking the time and answering all my questions. It has made a whole lot of this much simpler.

I started out by ordering all the casting goodies, MONTHS ago, they've been piled up on my work bench for awhile, and I finally decided it was time to do something with them since I was shop bound by a hurricane.

*Friday 2:30 pm -*

In order to cast you have to have a mold, basically two options there HDPE Cutting Board, or silicone. If using silicone you have to build a mold to cast your mold. Which is where I went to start

Kept it simple... plywood and pine 2x4 ripped down. Stapled my 1x1x2 inch chunks for wells in the mold, to the bottom, stapled the ends in place so I had something solid to work off of with the sides. Gorilla taped the sides up. Walls are 1 1/2" tall to allow a 1/2" floor in the finished mold. Hair over 1/2" all the way around the outside, 3/4" roughly between each block





Taped the bottom edge first to use like a hinge, then taped up the corners. I clamped it while taping the corners to close the gap up.





Table on the band saw was the most level thing I could find empty in the shop to do this on, but it wasn't quite level so I shimmed one end with 3-4 additional layers of tape.



 
Don't recall if Colin turned me on to the Mold Max 30 mold compound, but this stuff is so simple it ain't even funny. 10 parts rubber compound to 1 part catalyst, stir for awhile, pour, sit it on something running to vibrate for awhile. Cheap Harbor Freight blade I got on the bandsaw has a little tick in it and I figured it was about right. Worked like a charm!!

Not sure if it's all that way, but mine was plenty thick. Have something sturdier than a tongue depressor to stir it with handy.

BE ADVISED! - - When you read the directions on this stuff it suggests curing this under vacuum - DO NOT put this under vacuum if using a wood mold. About 2o inches of vacuum your silicone starts getting taller in your mold. About 25 inches you realize it's because of all the air you're pulling out of your wood mold. Don't ask me how I know these things! 

After 45 minutes, you can shut the saw off, your silicone is getting too thick to let the bubbles out anymore. You might want to add another dye, I elected to stay with Pepto Bismol *PINK!!!*





The directions on this stuff are so simple it's almost scary. You'll swear it can't be that easy, a page is missing or something; but it really is that simple. Directions were all of about two paragraphs total, MSDS was 4 pages front and back. Don't panic when you open the box and see all that paper in there.

Time required up to this point, digging out all the scraps to build the mold, sawing everything out, building the mold, reading the instructions 3 times swearing it couldn't really be that easy and looking for additional missing pages, stopping to move the bar-b-que grill for the wife, tweaking and leveling, mixing, setting up the Vacuum Chamber and working on a vacuum pump malfunction, which didn't work out so well... About 3 1/2 leisurely hours.

*Saturday 10 am --*

Walked away from it for a spell, after 16 hours cut the corners on the tape, find something to slip in between the sides and silicone. Since I had one, I used a Beekeeper's Hive Tool. Worked great! 





Pop the ends, work down the sides, and fold them over, gently pry up all the way around the bottom making sure you pop both ends of each of the wells loose, and pop her out of there.

I did not use a release agent on this project. Had no problems, it was stuck a little, but it all came off without a hitch.










 

Couple minutes with the X-acto knife cleaned up all the feathered edges. Still under 4 hours into this project, 17 - 18 hours since launching this mission.

Allow the mold to cure 4 more hours once out of the mold, and we're good to go!

Mold is 7 3/4" long x 3" wide x 1 1/2" deep - 5 wells 1"x 1"x 2" - it used about 85% of the contents of the kit.

---------------------------

Next up was trying to determine which honey comb we wanted to play with first. Two options to play with...









The 3/16" cell is 1/2" thick -- the 1/8" cell 1/4" thick. The 3/16" is more appropriately sized, whether it will look better on an ink pen or not remains to be seen. We must cast both to find out.

This stuff is fairly rigid and plenty tough, ran it through the bandsaw to cut to size.


*More to come... Stayed tuned!*

Reactions: Like 1 | Way Cool 1


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## rocky1

After cutting honeycomb to size insert into mold. Started with the 3/16" since finished blank won't be a 1/2" in diameter, decided to center the honeycomb in the mold rather than stack for this application. May be others where you need the mold full, but this ain't one of them.





Poured these with Colin's recommended Silmar 40... It to is so simple it's pathetic. 100 to 1 ratio on that; but how much to mix? Figured up cubic inches in the mold, looked up cubic inches in a pint, did the math, looked at the automotive paint style measuring cup. Needed 6 ounces, or 180 ml of resin, meaning I needed 1.8 ml of catalyst. First pour I mixed 15 drops of Alumilite Yellow trying to find the color I need.

Stir for 2 minutes! Pour!! Turn the saw on, and go do something else constructive.





Math was pretty close...






After 2 hours or so, they're still a little tacky, but set up hard enough to remove from the mold.

Results looked like...









Since the mold was empty, decided to try another batch with the 1/8" stuff, stacked it in the center of the cell...

First pour was a little light in color so I went with 13 drops yellow, 2 drops brown... It got really really dark! Started to pitch it, but I'm suspicious that once turned to size it may allow enough light through to be awful close.

Cut back 10 ml on my mix this round, only had a tablespoon full left over!





2 hours later...









Per Colin's instruction... No release agent used with the Silmar 40 on this mold. They don't even remotely stick. Bend the mold a little, push from the bottom, grab your blank and lift it out. 


Total time invested cutting honeycomb and pouring blanks... Maybe an hour a batch.

All total maybe 6 hours working on this stuff this weekend. And, I've got 10 blanks ready to go.

And, that was all in under 36 hours...

A good deal of which was spent waiting on chemistry experiments to cure, sleeping, eating, watching Hurricane coverage on TV, feeding deer, and peeling Luffa Gourds.


Tomorrow we drill and turn blanks and see where we need to go with color!!


*To be continued...*

Reactions: Way Cool 7


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## Tony



Reactions: Agree 1


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## Schroedc

Looking forward to seeing how it turns!


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## ripjack13

Great job Rocky. I like your pick on casting material and color. Can't wait to see what else you have "buzzing" around...


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## rocky1

Well we got good news and we got bad news...

The bad news is, the resin does not stick to the Plascore real good. If you look closely at the picture below, where you see the cells with the bright shiny walls, they're shiny because the resin isn't stuck to the wall.





And, when you start turning them, and hit one of those cells even a little aggressively it launches in pieces, (_I think, at least the one that hit me in the ear didn't feel whole_). After reaching mid-depth in the cell, it doesn't even require aggressive, I was turning with the heel of the skew, rolling a curl almost as fine as a human hair and had them launch.

This batch with the bigger cells, when you get down there even remotely close to almost finish size, and launch an 1/8" piece out of both sides, you're done! 

While the little stuff did behave in the same fashion, the smaller cell size presented less problem when pieces launched. And, I did manage to pull one off anyway.

At any rate... Quick trip to Lowes, picked up an assortment of paints. Gal at the back of paint section got tired of watching me standing there scratching my head and asked if I needed help. When I explained that I was trying to do, she told me I was on my own.

Rather than paint a half dozen tubes, I grabbed a 10" piece of tube, sprayed a strip of all of them so I could slide it through and see what they looked like. The darker blanks with 1/8" cell simply looked best with bare tube, no paint, so I ran with that.

While it certainly isn't perfect, having had to deal with half a dozen blown out cells, it is pretty impressive!! And, the pictures really don't do this one justice. The color in the resin is a little more amber than the pictures let on, and it honestly looks a whole lot like honey. If nothing else I got the recipe for color down on the second batch.







Your experience would certainly be appreciated here Colin. Thinking I need to try this again, back off on my catalyst to delay set time, and pull vacuum on this stuff to see if I can get better penetration on the cell walls. Have you tried pulling vacuum on your silicone mold? Any problems with bubbles? Or, would I do better with pressure?

Reactions: Like 1 | EyeCandy! 1 | Way Cool 3


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## Schroedc

rocky1 said:


> Well we got good news and we got bad news...
> 
> The bad news is, the resin does not stick to the Plascore real good. If you look closely at the picture below, where you see the cells with the bright shiny walls, they're shiny because the resin isn't stuck to the wall.
> 
> View attachment 114763
> 
> And, when you start turning them, and hit one of those cells even a little aggressively it launches in pieces, (_I think, at least the one that hit me in the ear didn't feel whole_). After reaching mid-depth in the cell, it doesn't even require aggressive, I was turning with the heel of the skew, rolling a curl almost as fine as a human hair and had them launch.
> 
> This batch with the bigger cells, when you get down there even remotely close to almost finish size, and launch an 1/8" piece out of both sides, you're done!
> 
> While the little stuff did behave in the same fashion, the smaller cell size presented less problem when pieces launched. And, I did manage to pull one off anyway.
> 
> At any rate... Quick trip to Lowes, picked up an assortment of paints. Gal at the back of paint section got tired of watching me standing there scratching my head and asked if I needed help. When I explained that I was trying to do, she told me I was on my own.
> 
> Rather than paint a half dozen tubes, I grabbed a 10" piece of tube, sprayed a strip of all of them so I could slide it through and see what they looked like. The darker blanks with 1/8" cell simply looked best with bare tube, no paint, so I ran with that.
> 
> While it certainly isn't perfect, having had to deal with half a dozen blown out cells, it is pretty impressive!! And, the pictures really don't do this one justice. The color in the resin is a little more amber than the pictures let on, and it honestly looks a whole lot like honey. If nothing else I got the recipe for color down on the second batch.
> 
> View attachment 114764
> 
> 
> 
> Your experience would certainly be appreciated here Colin. Thinking I need to try this again, back off on my catalyst to delay set time, and pull vacuum on this stuff to see if I can get better penetration on the cell walls. Have you tried pulling vacuum on your silicone mold? Any problems with bubbles? Or, would I do better with pressure?



Is this stuff plastic or cardboard or what?

Sounds like something isn't sticking. Once I've got an idea of what this stuff is made of I can give a few ideas. Message me with links to the specific material and I can see what I can come up with.

Reactions: Like 1


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## rocky1

Nomex paper, coated with a phenolic resin, whatever the hell a phenolic resin is... PN2 Aerospace Grade Aramid Fiber Honeycomb



Wikipedia said:


> *Phenolic* is an adjective and a substantive (noun) that may apply to : Phenol (or carbolic acid), a colorless crystalline solid and aromatic compound. *Phenols*, a class of chemical compounds that include phenol. *Phenolic* paper, a type of cardboard used for printed circuit boards.



I don't know, maybe it's not sticking to the resin, or maybe it is sticking and the other resin is separating from the paper. Just wondering if vacuum wouldn't help it all adhere. Guess it doesn't take but one batch to figure it out. I ain't out anymore than I am on the 3/16" cell thus far.


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## rocky1

ripjack13 said:


> Great job Rocky. I like your pick on casting material and color. Can't wait to see what else you have "buzzing" around...



While the first set of blanks were a tad too bright yellow, there really isn't a lot of the pen the light shines through, and even that part is to some extent influenced by color of the tube. Had painted my tubes for the yellow set a Metallic Dark Copper. I think it would have looked pretty good as well with the darker background.

As for other goodies buzzing, yeah there are a few more plans for casting goodies underway.

Reactions: Way Cool 1


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## Schroedc

Did a little research @rocky1 , Guessing the Phenolic resin isn't bonding to the poly resin, You could try vacuum to see if you can get it to adhere/penetrate better BUT I'd be a bit concerned that if there are any bubbles at all in your silicone mold it might expand like a marshmallow under vacuum. I'd be more inclined to test using a pressure pot but I don't have one of those myself yet. Or make a mold using HDPE cutting board material for use under vacuum.....

Wonder if you could source an uncoated paper honeycomb. The resin would penetrate that quite well based on what I've seen casting paper.


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## rocky1

Found several varieties of this stuff when I was looking, and I want to say I did find one that was untreated cardboard. However, while all of them were called "honeycomb", few exhibited the hexagonal cell structure as prominently as the Aramid Fiber Honeycomb. Cell size was also an issue, in order to get this stuff down in the 1/8" - 3/16" cell size, Aramid Fiber was my only option. And, the color wasn't what I was looking for either. The cardboard stuff was more round, not available under a 1/4" as best I recall, and looked like cardboard. 

Still have the salesman's e-mail, I'll give him a shout and see what they recommend. 

As far as the mold puffing up like a marshmallow under vacuum, I'll toss it in the pot and run it dry, to check that. Could fill it with water and run it, but I really don't want to fill the mold up with water if there are any cavities in it.

Have the HDPE Cutting Boards too, may just go ahead and build that mold.

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## DKMD

I'm just throwing out idea an idea here, but could you dip the honeycomb stuff in shellac first to coat the phenolic? My logic is probably faulty, but I'm thinking that shellac sticks to about anything and anything sticks to shellac... might be enough bond to get you to the finish line without being pummeled by little plastic missles.

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## kweinert

http://honeycomb.premier-packaging-products.com/honeycomb-panel/ -- they do say uncoated kraft paper, so maybe if you could find some it'd work for you. You might be able to slice off one face to open the cells to put the Silmar in and if you're turning off the other side it wouldn't matter. And it could give stability to the cells in the meantime.


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## rocky1

DKMD said:


> I'm just throwing out idea an idea here, but could you dip the honeycomb stuff in shellac first to coat the phenolic? My logic is probably faulty, but I'm thinking that shellac sticks to about anything and anything sticks to shellac... might be enough bond to get you to the finish line without being pummeled by little plastic missles.



Hadn't considered shellac Doc, had contemplated dipping it to try to get better adherence just wasn't sure what to dip it in honestly. Not sure why some cell walls bond, and some don't. One row will be perfect, one has a cell or two that didn't bond, some you'll have 4-5-6 cells in a row that didn't bond. Some bond part of the way up the cell, part of them bond one side of the cell. Really can't see any difference prior to casting, the finish appears uniform throughout.

My large vacuum pot appears to hold vacuum indefinitely however. Pulled it to 30 inches of vacuum Saturday Afternoon, closed the valve and turned the pump off, and it hasn't wiggled in over 48 hours. First 24 hours it didn't move, I bled it off and pulled it again just make sure the gauge was still working. If I back off on catalyst, I can hold vacuum on it as long as it takes it to set. And I honestly think that may be my best bet. 



kweinert said:


> http://honeycomb.premier-packaging-products.com/honeycomb-panel/ -- they do say uncoated kraft paper, so maybe if you could find some it'd work for you. You might be able to slice off one face to open the cells to put the Silmar in and if you're turning off the other side it wouldn't matter. And it could give stability to the cells in the meantime.



Thanks Ken! Looking at their site, it would appear you can get just the honeycomb core, for use with whatever material you want to face it with. Will check with them and see what they have for sizes available. It may be an option.


All that being said, I have e-mail off to the Regional Sales Manager that sent me the samples. I do believe I can get the Plascore to work, it's just a matter of figuring out how to make it work. Can't believe I got that close to perfect in my first two batches.

In looking these over more closely, and thinking things through today... Part of my problem with the 3/16" is using the one piece of Plascore in the center of the blank. While the 1/8" is also centered it's 2 pieces back to back. Minor variations in alignment allow smaller pieces to chip out as opposed to the entire cell pulling loose, when using the single piece of 3/16".


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## kweinert

Just had a thought - and maybe I missed something when you explained your process - but could it be a manufacturing side effect? Did you try washing it down with some sort of solvent (DNA, acetone, etc) to ensure that there wasn't any residue remaining from the manufacturing process?

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## rocky1

No I didn't Ken... According to their sales manager this stuff is designed for use in fiberglass builds and it's supposed to bond readily with fiberglass resins, which the Silmar 41 is. I was of the assumption it was ready to go.


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## kweinert

rocky1 said:


> No I didn't Ken... According to their sales manager this stuff is designed for use in fiberglass builds and it's supposed to bond readily with fiberglass resins, which the Silmar 41 is. I was of the assumption it was ready to go.



I wasn't necessarily saying you needed to - it was just a question that occurred to me. Just trying to think of points of failure. 

I hope you get something worked out because it's a really slick idea and I like the look of the pens.


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## ripjack13

rocky1 said:


> No I didn't Ken... According to their sales manager this stuff is designed for use in fiberglass builds and it's supposed to bond readily with fiberglass resins, which the Silmar 41 is. I was of the assumption it was ready to go.



Well....you know the old saying about assuming....

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kevin

I think Ken is onto something. The adhesion is obviously inconsistent so to me that points to the very cause Ken thought of. Worth a try.


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## Kevin

All else fails call their tech support people and tell them what you're doing. They can probably tell you why.


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## rocky1

E-mailed Plascore's sales manager, he called back, discussed what was going on. Told him, I know I am WAY OUTSIDE the realms of what this product is designed for, and I'm really asking a lot here, but I'm not sure if this is something I'm doing wrong, or a problem with materials, or what, and I'm just asking before wasting a lot of material trying to figure this out. This guy is a trip; he asked if I had enough Plascore to do more tests, was about to offer me more free samples, when I told him I had plenty to work with, I'd used very little. 

He talked with their chemist, couple of the other gurus there at Plascore. Chemist says he doesn't think there's a problem with the Silmar and Phenolic resin; not 100% certain, hasn't tested the Plascore/Silmar combo, can't rule it out entirely, but... says he really doesn't think that's an issue.

After looking at the photos, they all believe it's air trapped along the cell wall, and are recommending exactly what I initially suggested, back off on my catalyst extending set time, give it more time to saturate the cell walls, and cure it under vacuum to try and remove the air. Said if possible to put it under vacuum on the vibration table, do that too! ( _I can do that!_)

They were pretty much at a loss, said this is outside their experience with their product. And, that this is 'WAY OUTSIDE' what this product is designed for!  I said, "Yeah, somewhere in the process of throwing this stuff on the lathe, turning it 3000 RPMs and sticking sharp objects to it, I am relatively certain that we just got all outside the lines." He laughed!! Told me to keep him posted. 

--------

I have some Alumilite Water Clear on hand also, was reading up on it, just in case. I owe you a beer or 12 Colin, my God alumilite is some fussy bat guana compared to Silmar 41. But... since it is such a pain to work with, it afforded a few more clues.

Instructions for use with the Clear and Water Clear Alumilite tell you to "pour very slowly, down the wall, in one corner of your mold, if possible tilt the mold as you pour, as one would filling a glass with carbonated beverage, to prevent bubbles." Hmmmmm... That set the sawdust to smoldering! Random cells with shiny sides could be cells I randomly poured the resin in, trapping air in the cell as it filled from top and bottom, thus forcing air to the cell wall. There are numerous possibilities for shiny sides in that!

Last but not least, the Phenolic resin does not provide an absolutely smooth surface on the Aramid Fiber, there are places that it is a little rough feeling in spots, where it lifts individual fibers in the fabrics. Given the viscosity of the Silmar 41, and a surface that's a little rough in places, there is probably enough surface tension to hold air along the walls in those cells where trapped, even in the presence of mild vibration. 

Pretty sure I have the cause figured out, now a matter of getting over this stomach flu so I can get back in the shop with fiberglass fumes!


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## deltatango

I have been thinking about this. When molten metal is poured into a lost wax mold, there are sprues so that more metal is included than is needed to be sure the mold is full.

It occurs to me that you could make a mold that works on a similar principle, but just the opposite. This is just an idea, not sure it would work. The idea would be to make a mold with small holes in the bottom with channels that lead to one opening. (Think harmonica or ant farm). These channels go down to a second layer beneath the blank, that will get cut off after the blank has cured. While pouring the resin, a vacuum is pulled so there is a constant flow through the plascore withing the mold. Thinking a small hose connected to a shop vac with a valve on it to create just the right amount of suction, possibly including a seperator of some kind to avoid getting resin in the vacuum hose. When the vacuum is pulled and the resin has been pulled through the mold and through the labyrinth of the "reverse sprue holes", the bottom of the mold with sprue holes is rolled over so the holes are on top. Thinking maybe the original top of the mold could have a hinged top which would become the bottom once the mold is turned over. Afterwards, the sprue channels would be cut off the blank.
Again, just an idea, just some thoughts.

Another thought I had about the plascore. Wonder if you could get the cardboard type and stabilize it first using Cactus Juice? If you just soak it without pulling a vacuum, it won't distort, Bake in the oven without foil and the cardboard shouldn't show any imperfections, but will be stabilized. Then do your Silmar or Alumilite, using the above process described. It should bond to the stabilized Plascore I would think.

I think the honeycomb pens are really cool Rocky, and particularly in the business you are in makes them even cooler. And boy howdy do you have the honey color down. Wonder if you could get or make a clip that has a bee on it?

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## kweinert

http://www.beadzone.co.nz/store/products/10-silver-metal-bee-charms/ -- yeah, they have funny little holes where their head should be, but maybe a bit of epoxy could help you make a bee clip :) 

Or even cast it into the pen.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## rocky1

That's cool... I can see that cast over the 1/8" Plascore in a necklace or earrings! Have some other little bees I ordered off Amazon that are colorful I was planning to do that with, but they'll have to be poured in the cast as they're a wee bit fragile. Those could be set on top and left exposed to add a bit of texture to things. That's cool!! Thanks Ken!!


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## deltatango

Wonder if these might be of interest to you Rocky?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/50-Tiny-Bee...hash=item4d474e72d1:m:mCMXyQYfO-YbuyCe_af2OJg

Saw them and thought of you.


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## rocky1

I'll add them to my list!, Been checking out all nature of bee type hobbying goodies looking for things that will work profitably into a product line. Have found several, found a few items to add to the honey booth at fair and festivals, and the grand-niece has acquired lots of cool bee toys. 

Thanks Mark!!


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