# How to tell if a standing tree is curly or ambrosia



## gvwp

I've had a few people ask how to tell if a standing tree is curly or will contain ambrosia figure. This post is information that I have gained over the years of buying standing timber in the field. Curly figure can vary widely and is not limited to only Maple. In fact about any species can contain curly figure. I have found that its larger logs that typically will contain curly figure. It can be quite difficult to detect light amounts of curl in a standing tree but quite easy to determine if your standing tree will contain medium to heavy curly figure. First look at the base of the tree. Often you can easily see curly figure even on the outside of the bark in the bends at the base of a tree. Some trees easily than others depending on the thickness of the bark. If you see "ripples" in the bark it can be an indication of curly figure. The next way requires you to remove a small portion of the bark. For medium to heavy curl you only need to remove a couple inch long part of the bark. Once the bark is removed if you can see "ripples" on the surface most likely you have a tree which contains curly figure. Sometimes certain parts of a tree will contain curly figure and not others. See the photos below of a curly Maple log before its been sawn. This particular log should yield medium to heavy figure throughout the entire length of the log.
















You can clearly see a wavy pattern in the wood. This will also show up in a standing tree. This log will contain curly figure throughout the entire length of the log.

How about ambrosia figure? This can be a bit more tricky in a standing tree but again its easier to determine medium to heavy wormy figure than light figure. First and most obvious thing to look for is bird peck. See the photo below.





Notice the holes in the tree cause by birds. This is evidence the tree will contain bugs of some kind. Not always a 100% guarantee of the ambrosia beetle which is responsible for the figure in ambrosia Maple but its a good bet. If you see a lot of bird peck in the tree look at the base of the tree. Search for TINY holes all over the trunk of the tree. These holes are small. MUCH smaller than the bird peck holes. Much like the size of shot out of a shotgun shell. If fact the best ambrosia Maple can be found in trees which look like they have been blasted with shotgun. See example of these holes. They are hard to see. I point to them in the pics below.








The more of these holes you see the better the ambrosia figure is likely to be in your standing tree. Where I am from (west central Indiana) is hard to find a soft Maple (Red or Silver Maple) which does not have at least a stripe or two of ambrosia figure so just because you find a hole or two in your standing tree does not always guarantee a heavily figured tree. I also have been surprised by trees I have cut that didn't show an exceptional amount of holes or bird peck that were loaded with figure but I have found that if you find a lot of bird peck and and exceptional amount of tiny holes that you will find decent figure in the logs that come from that tree.

I hope this has helped some of the loggers out there looking for good trees to cut.

Reactions: Like 4 | Great Post 8 | Informative 4


----------



## JR Custom Calls

Here's a walnut stump I really need to dig up. I have to wonder, and I doubt you see much of it, if quilted maple has any exterior signs. 



http://i1024.Rule #2/albums/y306/jrcustomcalls/264C158D-DA17-4D56-A6F9-E00F5FA80672_zps6lonuuh9.jpg

Reactions: Like 1 | Way Cool 2


----------



## davduckman2010

great post david you should see all the ambrosia beetles burrowing out of the giant bar tops days after I milled my last batch. first time iv seen this and man there tiny I love them little bugs ps--great looking logs you got stacked there


----------



## gvwp

JR Custom Calls said:


> Here's a walnut stump I really need to dig up. I have to wonder, and I doubt you see much of it, if quilted maple has any exterior signs.
> 
> 
> 
> http://i1024.Rule #2/albums/y306/jrcustomcalls/264C158D-DA17-4D56-A6F9-E00F5FA80672_zps6lonuuh9.jpg



Some people compare quilted and curly figure. I see these two as two different types of figure. I call curly figure a tighter closed ripple figure in the wood. I call quilted as a much wider form of curly figure but without the tight ripple in the wood. I don't have any pics to show what I mean. Perhaps someone else can post a pic of some good quilted figure in a piece. With this said what I refer to as quilted figure can also be determined in a standing tree. Again I don't have pics of what I am referring to but quilt will appear in logs which have a wide rise and fall on the bark. Smoother barked trees are easier to see this in. On a certain episode of Ax Men they showed a super log which to me was going to be a superior quilted log. They called it curly which some people may.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## HomeBody

I have a report from a university somewhere that says the curl is caused by the tree storing sugar. Huh? I always thought curl came from compression. You see it in large logs that are of course very heavy. The walnut stumps I dug had it really good from the weight of the tree pushing on it. Also, you can see it in smaller trees when they are bad leaners. The inside curve, under compression, has the curl. So, is it caused by compression or is there a genetic component to it? Compression wouldn't explain a tree that has curl out on the smaller branches. Or, as the academic claims, caused by the tree storing sugar. Gary


----------



## phinds

gvwp said:


> I don't have any pics to show what I mean. Perhaps someone else can post a pic of some good quilted figure in a piece.


There are tons of pics of curl and quilt on my two pages "maple, quilted" and "maple, curly"

They are very distinct forms of figure and to me look absolutely nothing like each other





curly and quilted

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 4


----------



## DKMD

JR Custom Calls said:


> Here's a walnut stump I really need to dig up. I have to wonder, and I doubt you see much of it, if quilted maple has any exterior signs.
> 
> 
> 
> http://i1024.Rule #2/albums/y306/jrcustomcalls/264C158D-DA17-4D56-A6F9-E00F5FA80672_zps6lonuuh9.jpg



Who in the hell has been using a curly walnut stump as a chainsaw backstop?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3


----------



## JR Custom Calls

DKMD said:


> Who in the hell has been using a curly walnut stump as a chainsaw backstop?


Well... funny story. I destroyed a chain trying to cut the roots enough to pull it. All I did was a wheelie on the tractor. Gonna have to take a backhoe to it. But, them good ole boys from up the holler that cut the tree down are the ones who hacked up the top.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## justallan

Great post, David.
When trying to get the best curly boards are you quarter sawing?

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## barry richardson

HomeBody said:


> I have a report from a university somewhere that says the curl is caused by the tree storing sugar. Huh? I always thought curl came from compression. You see it in large logs that are of course very heavy. The walnut stumps I dug had it really good from the weight of the tree pushing on it. Also, you can see it in smaller trees when they are bad leaners. The inside curve, under compression, has the curl. So, is it caused by compression or is there a genetic component to it? Compression wouldn't explain a tree that has curl out on the smaller branches. Or, as the academic claims, caused by the tree storing sugar. Gary


I think compression is a major factor too, The big eucalyptus that grow around here have a very high percentage of curl, the wood/tree is extremely heavy, And the big ones usually seem to have lots of curl in the trunk and buttress area...... and these trees don't have a high sugar content as far as I know...


----------



## justallan

I'd certainly agree with you on the eucalyptus, Barry. I'd logged a bunch of it off the coast up around the redwoods in California in the early '80s and daggummit, that stuff is heavy. I've heard it was better than 50% water and I didn't argue.


----------



## Jerry B

excellent post 
it should also be said, especially shown in the 2nd & 3rd images, not only can you see the curly aspect of the wood,
but when cut, it'll also have some extreme chatoyance (the wavy going horizontally _across _the bark)
that would produce an awesome effect especially in a larger bowl or platter 
That's really some great looking timber you've used as an example, makes me drool


----------



## David Van Asperen

Great post with super info . Thanks for sharing
Dave


----------



## Kevin

gvwp said:


> Some people compare quilted and curly figure. I see these two as two different types of figure.



I have actually been taken to task for pinting this fact out before on this very forum. I was told it's all a matter of opinion and other such nonsense. As Paul's pictures clearly illistrate the diference is obvious. 

But then, some people will tell you that colors are just opinions too.


----------



## Kevin

HomeBody said:


> I have a report from a university somewhere that says the curl is caused by the tree storing sugar. Huh? I always thought curl came from compression. You see it in large logs that are of course very heavy. The walnut stumps I dug had it really good from the weight of the tree pushing on it. Also, you can see it in smaller trees when they are bad leaners. The inside curve, under compression, has the curl. So, is it caused by compression or is there a genetic component to it? Compression wouldn't explain a tree that has curl out on the smaller branches. Or, as the academic claims, caused by the tree storing sugar. Gary



Gary most of my FBE trees are leaners to varying degrees, and many of them are curly on the the compression and tension side of the tree. FBE is high in sugar content too, so I don't think it's as simple as just sugar content either. I do think trees tend to be more curly on the compression side though.

I thinks genetics also play a part in it. I don't thinks it's any single thing most of the time but I guess sometimes maybe it could be. Causation is harder to pin down and I sure don't claim to know.

Great thread everyone.


----------



## phinds

Kevin said:


> I thinks genetics also play a part in it. I don't thinks it's any single thing most of the time but I guess sometimes maybe it could be. Causation is harder to pin down and I sure don't claim to know..


Yeah, what he said !


----------



## gvwp

Paul thanks for posting the pics of the different figure and these two photos show exactly what I was referring to. Curly and quilted figure are two distinctly different types of figure. A perfect example of both in those pictures. I don't have any logs on the yard currently that show evidence of quilted figure but I will watch for one and post pics if I can find one. The pictures of the curly log I used is due to be milled this week. I am curious as to what it will show as far as level. It really looks good from the outside. It should give a good amount of figure. 

As for what causes curly figure in some trees and not others is still out for debate. I always assumed, as many others, that curly figure was due to compression but I have found curly figure in small limbs and small trees so this would discount the compression theory. I have heard all kinds of reasons. Some people say that trees growing on rocky soil will cause curly figure. I have heard trees growing on steep hills will cause curly figure. I have heard trees growing on wet soil and on and on. Over the years I have found curly figure in trees on ALL these types of terrain so it. The one consistent condition I have found is that the larger heavier trees SEEM to have a better occurrence of curly or quilted figure.


----------



## Kevin

David I didn't even know quilt happened in Indiana. For some reason I thought it was pretty much contained to the PNW in BLM and even then only in about 1 in 100 trees. But I am admittedly (and decidedly) ignorant on the topic. If you find quilting there I am even more jealous.

See that's the thing about causation, since this whole time I thought quilting only occurred in BLM in the PNW, I thought quilting was obviously caused by social liberalism. 

But if it occurs in the conservative heartland of Indiana I now have to rethink my theory

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## manbuckwal

Kevin said:


> I have actually been taken to task for pinting




Probably not a good idea to be discussing sensitive wood subjects while "pinting" ..............all that beer just confuses themuh, synapses, however, you will probably reach that @SENC ataraxia

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Kevin




----------



## gvwp

Kevin said:


> David I didn't even know quilt happened in Indiana. For some reason I thought it was pretty much contained to the PNW in BLM and even then only in about 1 in 100 trees. But I am admittedly (and decidedly) ignorant on the topic. If you find quilting there I am even more jealous.
> 
> See that's the thing about causation, since this whole time I thought quilting only occurred in BLM in the PNW, I thought quilting was obviously caused by social liberalism.
> 
> But if it occurs in the conservative heartland of Indiana I now have to rethink my theory




I have seen what I call quilting in Cherry and Beech here in Indiana. Its incredibly rare. Much like Birdseye. I've never cut a good Birdseye log but a couple Cherry and Beech with quilted figure.

Reactions: Way Cool 1


----------



## Mike1950

Kevin said:


> I have actually been taken to task for pinting this fact out before on this very forum. I was told it's all a matter of opinion and other such nonsense. As Paul's pictures clearly illistrate the diference is obvious.
> 
> But then, some people will tell you that colors are just opinions too.



I think there is a big difference between the 2. If needed I will show pictures. curl is linear-quilt abstract. As far as why- multiple people I work with say they find quilt in clumps-sometimes in very small trees. They are the guys, in the forest cutting them down- for a whole lifetime. Everyone has to come to there own conclusion though. ID the tree while alive for quilt- pretty easy- here are a couple examples- I have better but these were readily available- in the trailer. Bark and wood looks bubbly .



 



 



 

when I find better example I will post. Lazy today 1500 miles in 3 days will do that to the

Reactions: EyeCandy! 1 | Way Cool 3


----------



## davduckman2010

Mike1950 said:


> I think there is a big difference between the 2. If needed I will show pictures. curl is linear-quilt abstract. As far as why- multiple people I work with say they find quilt in clumps-sometimes in very small trees. They are the guys, in the forest cutting them down- for a whole lifetime. Everyone has to come to there own conclusion though. ID the tree while alive for quilt- pretty easy- here are a couple examples- I have better but these were readily available- in the trailer. Bark and wood looks bubbly .
> 
> View attachment 82071
> 
> View attachment 82072
> 
> View attachment 82073
> 
> when I find better example I will post. Lazy today 1500 miles in 3 days will do that to the


beautiful wood mike  1500 miles at your age you realy should give up training for the tour de france

Reactions: Funny 4


----------



## woodtickgreg

Mike, that's what I'm looking for.


----------



## Mike1950

woodtickgreg said:


> Mike, that's what I'm looking for.




Greg The big one has enough volume but It is not long enough.

Reactions: Like 1


----------

