# walnut from tree to board



## Graybeard (Jul 7, 2014)

I'm curious what the finances are on a walnut tree through the processing to the final board. Don't get me wrong I know there are many steps from harvest to retail with a lot of expensive equipment in the process.

I realize too places like Woodcraft have overhead they have to pay. (Fortunately I don't have to get any wood from them).

It seems like milk prices go up in the store while the farmers price goes up and down. It never seems to go down in the store. I suspect wood is like that too?

I'm happy with what I got and hope the logger can make a profit on his efforts.

Graybeard

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Dennis Ford (Jul 7, 2014)

I am not going to be much help but wanted to comment on the vast differences from one tree to another. Walnut is mostly sapwood until the tree is fairly old, some trees have spiral grain and every board will twist if a mill goes to the trouble of cutting those. I got a "free" walnut a couple of months ago from a neighbor, it was about 26" dia. at the base and had about a 12 ft trunk plus several crotch sections and some big limbs. Two or three worn out chains to cut up the stump which was hollow and full of sand and some rocks. Four band-mill blades damaged by metal. Some really nice boards and a bunch of boards with both nice sections and rotten or missing sections. I am happy to have the lumber but would have been very unhappy if I had paid for the log. (never pay for a log that grew in someone's yard)


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## Graybeard (Jul 8, 2014)

Some years ago I had an independent forester tell me my five walnuts were worth $2,000 on the stump. When I asked him what the retail value would be he said $25,000. Does anyone know of a breakdown as to the increase in dollars as the value is added by logging, processing, drying, and finally retail selling? Maybe Forest Products Lab in Madison, Wisconsin has something like this?

Just curious.

Graybeard


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## Mike1950 (Jul 8, 2014)

Not a sawyer but Have to agree with Dennis. Yard trees are the only walnut we have here. I buy them already cut but can hear the sawyer cussing every nail, bullet, wire etc. Almost all trees I have gotten have had some kind of metal in them. The reward is some very nice lumber. As far as breakdown- I think wholesale is about 1/2 of retail. Our retail price here for 4/4 ranges from$9-10 bd ft but it all is trucked in from elsewhere.


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## Kevin (Jul 8, 2014)

There are books on the topic and none of them cover it fully. It's more involved than what you're asking or I can cover but I'll try to address it somewhat. Let's buy a 12 BF black walnut board at the local hardwood supplier.

Start with the landowner (LO) who owns the tree that board came from. Let's stay small at first and say the LO is a rancher with some timberland he needs for pasture to expand his cattle operation. The LO calls a state forester (free in most states) to help him get an idea what his timber is worth and how the process works. No costs are added the the timber yet. If the LO hires an independent forestry consultant (IFC) to cruise his trees (evaluate, mark, and generate a report for the LO) the costs added to the timber are negligible and not really noticeable if there's more than a few trees. Even if the LO hires the IFC to manage the sale from start to finish the costs added are only a few percentage points on the timber, but more often than not an inexperience LO will actually end up making more money by paying a good IFC to manage the sale, so let's not add any costs to the timber for a IFC.

Next comes the timber buyer. The buyer may be Weyerhauser, a local or regional timber buyer, or it may be an independent logger - so the money the LO makes can vary even with a FC managing the sale, depending on how eager the LO is to get the timber sold and get steers on it. But let's call the cost of walnut board 10% to the rancher for grade and pulp logs (no veneer logs - that's a whole nuther ball of wax. It's probably far less but working with round numbers is easier.

If the buyer has in-house logging crews they figure their costs as though they had to hire indy loggers (usually that's what they do - less liability) and whether they sell the logs to a mill or own the mill, the costs added to the timber are usually close to the same. I'm going to add another 15% total for this phase in the journey of the board. Now we're at 25%.

Many craftsman prefer air dried (AD) BW over kiln dried (KD) because KDing bleaches much of the color from BW. Some woodworkers claim that even though commercial kilns run a steam cycle at the end of a BW drying schedule, it doesn't return the color back to normal. That's a long-going debate and not necessary here. The point is, if you want AD BW you can find an indy mill like many of the sawyers on this site and buy the AD BW from them. They will add another 5% (reasonable) to 10% (too much IMO) to the wood for this on top of what they added to mill and sticker and stack.

If the wood is processed through its full cycle by a professional operation, the wood will be kiln dried and then sold wholesale to a large furniture company, a wholesaler, or China. China, like Japan was doing in the 80s mostly buys logs in containers by the shipload and does it all themselves.

If the lumber goes to a wholesaler, it will add another 10 to 15%. If it goes to a retailer that will add about the same and the retailer will try to make a 20%+ margin. And remember if the wood goes through a large corporation from stump to retail rack, the cost will be greater than a small operation because of dramatic overhead differences. Trucking and insurance and fuel costs and taxes and permits (and lobbyists for the big guys) all this is figured in at the appropirate levels no matter if it's a one man operation or a multi-billion dollar operation. And while the mega corps have massive overhead, they also get massive price breaks on many phases of the operation. Still, the cost percentage for them is more per tree than a local one man mill.

I didn't try to tally everything to make an even 100% because unless you maintain one single scenario along the way it isn't possible. AND keep in mind these are just guesstimate percentages shooting from my hip just to give you an idea. AND keep in mind there's a lot more to it that I didn't mention (or even know) but getting a board from stump to store takes a lot of effort and money these days.

Reactions: Great Post 1 | Informative 4


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## Treecycle Hardwoods (Jul 8, 2014)

I would second what Kevin said. 

In addition to that lets address the $25,000 estimated retail value. Some logs are destine for veneer which will bump up the log value but to be veneer quality you would need 20-24" diameter minimum. In Wisconsin retail 4/4 BW is about $5/BF That would mean that the 5 trees would need to yield 5000 BF of S&B grade lumber to come to the $25,000 retail value. Common grade walnut is about half at $2.50/BF EVERY TREE will yield some common grade boards. It may only be a few or it may be up to 100% of the tree is common grade (the later would be pulp wood) the average is 30-40% S&B and the rest one of the 3 grades of common lumber. So knowing that some of the lumber will be common grade you would need to yield 6000 BF(75%) of common grade boards for a retail value of $15000, and you would need 2000 BF(25%) of S&B boards for a total of $10,000. The total of 8000 BF of lumber would require 1600 BF per tree. Assuming you get (2) 10' sticks of wood per tree you would need 36'+ diameter trees to get your yield of 1600 BF per tree. 

When I started milling I was recommended a book called "value added lumber" (or something of the sort) I could get you the exact title and author after I get home from work if you want it. Where i am going with this is the book outlines many steps along the journey between trees and final lumber product that adds value to the wood. The biggest increase in value comes from drying the wood. It can make up to 60% of the total value. The other 40% comes in small bits from logging, milling, processing, and marketing. The manner in which you mill, and market make up the bulk of the remaining value after drying. The processing is the over head that Kevin was referring to. (storage is also an overhead expense) In the end the raw material (trees) make up the smallest percent of value to the lumber and that is why you got an estimate of $2000 for the trees and $25,000 for the finished value of the wood (a whopping 8%) 

The book above that I mentioned is all the knowledge that the average Black Walnut owner is missing and is the chief reason that they think their trees are worth gold. I often wish I could smack them upside the head with that book and all the knowledge would transfer to them so they come to their senses.

Reactions: Like 1 | Great Post 2 | Informative 2


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## Graybeard (Jul 8, 2014)

Thanks for the information. I look forward to getting the name of the book. I know very few people that realize what's involved in the production of a board. People constantly tell me, I'll bet you made a fortune, that walnut is really valuable. Are you going to harvest the stump? They're gold. Ya right, have you ever dug out a stump, cleaned it up and tried to saw it up. That's why in part it's so darn valuable. Same with crotch wood. I've got tons of crotch wood in the woods but am not going to buy a tractor with a loader to get it out, then have it milled, then build a shed to dry it etc. It breaks my heart to leave it lay but I'm 70 years young and mowing the grass is a major job these days.

Thanks again.

Graybeard

Reactions: Like 2


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## Treecycle Hardwoods (Jul 8, 2014)

Here us the book I was referring to earlier


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## Kevin (Jul 8, 2014)

Was it perhaps myself or Daren who suggested that back then Greg? It's one of or maybe the first book I bought also when I started in milling. I ended up not really needing it but it still chock full of great info.


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## Treecycle Hardwoods (Jul 8, 2014)

It was likely one if not both of you guys. I have a good 6-8 books I bought in the early days of the mill. All helpful several I have read twice and referenced many times


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## Kevin (Jul 8, 2014)

Kevin said:


> I ended up not really needing it but it still chock full of great info



To clarify why I did not really need it, only because I never really did saw for grade to any amount.


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## Treecycle Hardwoods (Jul 8, 2014)

This one here talks a lot about sawing for grade. I have read. Reread. And referenced this one more than any other book. Had it sitting by the mill daily back in the day.


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## Kevin (Jul 8, 2014)

Woodmizer and Norwood used to send that book out with their mills - might still do it. It came with my LM 2000 - you're right it's a great book.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Treecycle Hardwoods (Jul 8, 2014)

Denig was a professor at the University of Wisconsin at one point in the forestry department he still may be I'm not sure. We are lucky to have the level of talented people in our local universities


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## JR Parks (Jul 30, 2014)

Thanks for the discussion guys!


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