# Concerning scales



## bikeshooter (Mar 6, 2019)

I have just finished processing a batch of spalted sycamore scales and thought I was very meticulous in the process. Oven dried to 0% moisture, vacuum stabilized for 24 hours, soaked for another 48 then carefully cured at 190 to 195 degrees for 4 hours.

I had them dead flat after the oven dry cycle but there has been some cupping of 1/64 to 1/32 " so now they are not dead flat.

My question is , do knife makers consider flattening the scales part of the normal process? Is the level of cupping I described a problem?


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## Sprung (Mar 6, 2019)

David, I don't have any knife making experience, but I do have plenty of stabilizing experience. The fact that your scales cupped a little during the process is not uncommon. Depending on what I'm stabilizing, I'll expect some movement during the process, so I usually try to start with blanks that are even a touch oversized so I can true them up. Thinner material, like already cut knife scales, I have found moves the most.

For best results, I would certainly try and flatten them. A cup that minor shouldn't take much to flatten. If you lose too much thickness in flattening, you might then have to consider a liner material. And, going forward, if your goal is stabilized scales, for best results I would stabilize them as blocks and slice into scales after stabilizing whenever possible.

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## FranklinWorkshops (Mar 6, 2019)

Matt, with pieces that small, would you flat them by rubbing them on sandpaper laying on a flat surface like glass or granite?

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## Sprung (Mar 6, 2019)

FranklinWorkshops said:


> Matt, with pieces that small, would you flat them by rubbing them on sandpaper laying on a flat surface like glass or granite?



That's how I'd do it with thin pieces with not much to remove, like the 1/64 or 1/32 that was mentioned. If you're real adventurous, or have a good means to hold thin pieces on it, there's always the belt sander.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## FranklinWorkshops (Mar 6, 2019)

A belt sander? Like my dad said one time, if you've got good steady hands, you can trim your nails with a router. I don't trust my hands that much these days.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 4


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## Wildthings (Mar 6, 2019)

I do mine by touching them to the belt sander but always finish by doing figure 8s on sandpaper on a known flat surface. Almost all my scales get this treatment and don't consider them flat until they stick together after this surfacing treatment

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## Sprung (Mar 6, 2019)

FranklinWorkshops said:


> A belt sander? Like my dad said one time, if you've got good steady hands, you can trim your nails with a router. I don't trust my hands that much these days.



That's why I said, "If you're real adventurous."  I've done it. Rubber finger tips a few times. Have a pair of leather gloves that has holes sanded in the ends of most fingers.

But, for something thin, even affixing it to a larger block with some double sided tape, giving a larger block as where you'd hold it, works well.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Useful 1


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## Arn213 (Mar 6, 2019)

Sprung said:


> David, I don't have any knife making experience, but I do have plenty of stabilizing experience. The fact that your scales cupped a little during the process is not uncommon. Depending on what I'm stabilizing, I'll expect some movement during the process, so I usually try to start with blanks that are even a touch oversized so I can true them up. Thinner material, like already cut knife scales, I have found moves the most.
> 
> For best results, I would certainly try and flatten them. A cup that minor shouldn't take much to flatten. If you lose too much thickness in flattening, you might then have to consider a liner material. And, going forward, if your goal is stabilized scales, for best results I would stabilize them as blocks and slice into scales after stabilizing whenever possible.



So is there a tendency for them to also “move” when you book-match them in block form after stabilizing them?


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## Sprung (Mar 6, 2019)

Arn213 said:


> So is there a tendency for them to also “move” when you book-match them in block form after stabilizing them?



Are you asking if blocks will move during the process? Or if a stabilized block will move once cut into scales?

I have had blocks move during the process. I have never noticed anything I've cut from an already stabilized block move.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Arn213 (Mar 6, 2019)

Sprung said:


> Are you asking if blocks will move during the process? Or if a stabilized block will move once cut into scales?
> 
> I have had blocks move during the process. I have never noticed anything I've cut from an already stabilized block move.



Whether a stabilized block will move once book-matched into scale format.


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## Sprung (Mar 6, 2019)

Arn213 said:


> Whether a stabilized block will move once book-matched into scale format.



when I've taken a stabilized block and cut it into scales, I haven't noticed any movement. That's not to say it's not impossible for it to move - internal stresses can be relieved when the wood is cut. But I have tended to mostly work with materials that tend to soak up a fair amount of resin and I've many times stabilized pieces that ended up being more stabilizing resin than wood by weight once done.

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## bikeshooter (Mar 6, 2019)

All replies have been very helpful and informative - thanks to all.

I might just offer them with disclosing that they will need to be further flattened. This is some purty wood.

I have some more to process and stabillizing a thicker block sounds like the way to go from here on.


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## ripjack13 (Mar 6, 2019)

What if you stuck em in a vice for a while? Or would they go back to cupped?


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## NeilYeag (Mar 7, 2019)

I have worked with a little out to completely wonky. Obviously the closer to flat the better because it saves a lot of time in the process and there are so many steps as it is. As mentioned above a little cup or twist can usually work out with some sandpaper on a granite plate. Usually for big adjustments I true up one side and one edge, same as with lumber except do it on the sandpaper plate. Then I built a fixture to hold the scales square and perpendicular and mark from the true edge. Then I can go to the belt or the disc sander to bring the other surfaces in.

Clamping in my experience does not work, and the material will tend to spring back to the original problem. I guess if it is minor, good glue and technique maybe would hold them in place, but I don't trust that and always try to get them dead flat before glue up. 

So to really answer the OP question I would gladly pay a couple of bucks more and have them arrive flat square and true. I can say that a few of you guys on here that I have had the pleasure of working with really know how to nail it! You know who you are.....

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## milkbaby (Mar 11, 2019)

Arn213 said:


> Whether a stabilized block will move once book-matched into scale format.



I know this was asked last week, but I've seen scales that were stabilized as blocks move after cutting. Even scales from one of the gold standard companies I've seen move; and this is a company other knifemakers swear is the only one that gets their stabilizing business because of the time and expense of having to replace handle wood if a defect occurs. It's usually burl wood that I've seen this happen to, which as Matt mentioned above is due to the internal stresses being released.

I typically buy scales, and I always let them sit around a long time to equilibrate once I get them. They can arrive straight and as soon as I remove the bubble wrap sometimes I can see them warp right in front of my eyes. I usually sit on them a year, preferably more than two years. Another maker I heard tell that he waits at least 5 years before using the wood on a handle and he was talking about stabilized wood from WSSI or K&G.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 2


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## bikeshooter (Mar 15, 2019)

NeilYeag said:


> I have worked with a little out to completely wonky. Obviously the closer to flat the better because it saves a lot of time in the process and there are so many steps as it is. As mentioned above a little cup or twist can usually work out with some sandpaper on a granite plate. Usually for big adjustments I true up one side and one edge, same as with lumber except do it on the sandpaper plate. Then I built a fixture to hold the scales square and perpendicular and mark from the true edge. Then I can go to the belt or the disc sander to bring the other surfaces in.
> 
> Clamping in my experience does not work, and the material will tend to spring back to the original problem. I guess if it is minor, good glue and technique maybe would hold them in place, but I don't trust that and always try to get them dead flat before glue up.
> 
> So to really answer the OP question I would gladly pay a couple of bucks more and have them arrive flat square and true. I can say that a few of you guys on here that I have had the pleasure of working with really know how to nail it! You know who you are.....



Hi Neil,
I'm sorry for a slow reply as I didn't get an email showing you replied.
At this point for me I enjoy getting wood ready for others to finish - just my preference. And I have quite a bit 
to dispose of somehow or another. I have some blocks being stabilized now and after reading the replies here 
I think I'll go ahead and prep them as ready to use scales.

Thaks for the reply.

David


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## bikeshooter (Mar 15, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> I know this was asked last week, but I've seen scales that were stabilized as blocks move after cutting. Even scales from one of the gold standard companies I've seen move; and this is a company other knifemakers swear is the only one that gets their stabilizing business because of the time and expense of having to replace handle wood if a defect occurs. It's usually burl wood that I've seen this happen to, which as Matt mentioned above is due to the internal stresses being released.
> 
> I typically buy scales, and I always let them sit around a long time to equilibrate once I get them. They can arrive straight and as soon as I remove the bubble wrap sometimes I can see them warp right in front of my eyes. I usually sit on them a year, preferably more than two years. Another maker I heard tell that he waits at least 5 years before using the wood on a handle and he was talking about stabilized wood from WSSI or K&G.



Hi Milkbaby,

Again I'm sorry for a slow reply - somehting went wrong with email notification.

I also understand the reasoning for letting wood 'relax' before being put into use. With the wood I'll
be offering soon I'll mention just how long I've had it and how it has been handled.

Thanks for the reply,
David

Just wondering, Whee are you in Florida? I'm in Jax.

Reactions: Like 2


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## milkbaby (Mar 15, 2019)

bikeshooter said:


> I also understand the reasoning for letting wood 'relax' before being put into use. With the wood I'll
> be offering soon I'll mention just how long I've had it and how it has been handled.
> Just wondering, Whee are you in Florida? I'm in Jax.



Cool! I'm not too far away just south of you in Gainesville. I'll keep any eye out for anything you list in the for sale section.

Reactions: Like 2


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## NeilYeag (Mar 17, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> I know this was asked last week, but I've seen scales that were stabilized as blocks move after cutting. Even scales from one of the gold standard companies I've seen move; and this is a company other knifemakers swear is the only one that gets their stabilizing business because of the time and expense of having to replace handle wood if a defect occurs. It's usually burl wood that I've seen this happen to, which as Matt mentioned above is due to the internal stresses being released.
> 
> I typically buy scales, and I always let them sit around a long time to equilibrate once I get them. They can arrive straight and as soon as I remove the bubble wrap sometimes I can see them warp right in front of my eyes. *I usually sit on them a year, preferably more than two years. Another maker I heard tell that he waits at least 5 years* before using the wood on a handle and he was talking about stabilized wood from WSSI or K&G.



I am too freaking old to wait one year let alone 5. ha....

Reactions: Funny 2


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