# Barn find



## tomwilson74 (May 4, 2018)

Got this wood from a friend in Virginia. It was about 4’ x 2’. Several pieces tongue and groove joint. I was told it was ironwood, this piece weighs 3 pounds. It’s 16” x 3 1/2” x 1 1/2”. Really splintery (is that a word?). I did see some ironwood on the internet called cinnamon ironwood. Any ideas?

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## phinds (May 4, 2018)

"ironwood" is used for at least 178 different species, so that name is not really helpful.

If you measurements are accurate, then it prorates out to about 62lbs/cuft which is heavy for sure (almost to the point where it won't float)

Also, I note that it has exceptionally clear interlocked grain.

@tomwilson74, can you get a good end grain closeup?

@Mr. Peet this ring any bells?

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## tomwilson74 (May 4, 2018)

Here’s an end grain shot.

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## tomwilson74 (May 4, 2018)

Here’s another shot of the side and top. The black lines are probably from where I cut of the tongue and groove jointery.


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## phinds (May 4, 2018)

The end grain pic is helpful, but I'm still not coming up with anything yet. I'm assuming that shot is of a piece that is 1.5" thick, yes?

It would be helpful if you could get a better cleaned up end grain closeup. The pic you posted is pretty good but it gives no hint about the ray characteristics.


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## tomwilson74 (May 4, 2018)

Let me get a shot with my Canon instead of my phone.


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## tomwilson74 (May 4, 2018)

closer end grain shot, hope this one is better.


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## phinds (May 4, 2018)

Better. The fact that rays don't show up in this pic is helpful


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## Tom Smart (May 4, 2018)

Ipe?

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## phinds (May 4, 2018)

Tom Smart said:


> Ipe?


Not an unreasonable guess, except maybe for the color, but probably not. Ipe has interlocked grain and the end grain is similar but ipe does not have that very straight ribbon stripe face grain

I'm thinking now that it might be one of the several Eucalypts that are called ironwood. That would match the density, the color, and the obvious ribbon stripe interlocked grain. The end grain is also a good match except for the small area of banded parenchyma. I'm not sure Eucalypts ever have that. If they do, it's rare.


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## Palaswood (May 4, 2018)

Might be Karri
http://www.wood-database.com/karri/

That end grain close up looks a lot more like eucalyptus when you walk 10 feet away from your monitor and look at it. No seriously, try it.


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## phinds (May 4, 2018)

Palaswood said:


> Might be Karri


Yes, that's a good call, but it has the same problem as I already stated, which is that the Eucalypts don't seem to have that banded parenchyma that is so evident in this wood.


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## Palaswood (May 4, 2018)

Yes and the splinteryness (now THAT is not a word for sure) is what gives me pause in classifying it a eucalyptus. But there are so many varieties its almost a useless classification. Almost like determining a species as a deciduos ans calling it good enough. 

Send phinds a sample

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## tomwilson74 (May 4, 2018)

Phinds, pm me your address and I’ll send a block of it to you.


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## phinds (May 4, 2018)

tomwilson74 said:


> Phinds, pm me your address and I’ll send a block of it to you.


Done

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## Mr. Peet (May 4, 2018)

I believe the second George Bush President used the word "splinteryness", so just a madder of thyme beefour we all yews it.

Barn find, well definitely not a US common wood. Paul, 'Ipe' can have ribbon stripe, like those you photographed last year, but can't say I've seen that crisp, as you have said.

Tom, what color was the sawdust? Any smell(s)? Clearly an oxidation line ringing the end grain shot. Surface checking, with deep checking soon after cutting. What is the moisture?

My thought is Malaysian, wheel barrel handles is the clue...

Sorry for the late response, no e-mail notices like usual.


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## barry richardson (May 4, 2018)

Looks like some apitong I had, which was splintery, has a distinct smell, like bug spray....


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## phinds (May 4, 2018)

barry richardson said:


> Looks like some apitong I had, which was splintery, has a distinct smell, like bug spray....


End grain significantly different from apitong. Did your apitong have that very straight ribbon stripe? I've never seen that in apitong.


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## tomwilson74 (May 5, 2018)

Me. Peet, it does stink a little bit. The sawdust was actually a little darker than the wood. I can get a picture tomorrow. When I was cutting it, it was like tiny little “projectiles “ hitting me.


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## Mr. Peet (May 5, 2018)

The lack of constant banding excludes 'Grey handlewood', (_Aphananthe_) the lack of obvious rays excludes 'Keruing', (_Dipterocarpus_) so I was leaning toward 'Kapur', (_Dryobalanops_) since it has occasional banding. However, the rays are often seen so not sold yet.


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## phinds (May 5, 2018)

Mr. Peet said:


> The lack of constant banding excludes 'Grey handlewood', (_Aphananthe_) the lack of obvious rays excludes 'Keruing', (_Dipterocarpus_) so I was leaning toward 'Kapur', (_Dryobalanops_) since it has occasional banding. However, the rays are often seen so not sold yet.


We'll get better end grain details after I get the sample.


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## phinds (May 5, 2018)

Mr. Peet said:


> ...the lack of obvious rays excludes 'Keruing'


Which is why I told Barry that the end grain is significantly different from apitong (=keruing)


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## woodtickgreg (May 6, 2018)

Mr. Peet said:


> Sorry for the late response, no e-mail notices like usual.


When that happens to me, and it does often, I unwatch the thread or forum and the hit watch thread or forum with email notification.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## phinds (May 10, 2018)

well, it looks like @barry richardson was right after all. I'm pretty sure that it is apitong (keruing) / Dipterocarpus dyeri. When I said, above, that the end grain was significantly different from apitiong, I was basing that on all of my sample except the one that I seem to have overlooked, Dipterocarpus dyeri. I've only got one sample of that but it does have the obvious interlocked grain (although not a straight a ribbon stripe as this wood) AND more importantly, it has the slightly smaller pore size and the lower pore distribution of this wood compared to the other apitong species. Also, now that I've processed it myself, I can see that not only do the rays show up clearly at 10X but also the ray size and distribution are the same as Dipterocarpus spp.

It is still very remotely possible that it is a Eucalypt, but I doubt it since I've never seen a Eucalypt with rays that are this clearly seen at 10X (usually on the Eucalypts you can't see rays at all at 10X and when you can they are quite faint)

Here's a 1/4" x 1/4" cross section of the end grain of the mystery wood on the left and of apitong (keruing) / Dipterocarpus dyeri on the right



 



The bright white vertical lines are where the wood cracked slightly along the rays. That happens a lot on dense woods due to the heat of the end grain sanding .

And just for grins, here's a more common apitong species which will show you why I thought it was not apitong

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## barry richardson (May 10, 2018)




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## Mr. Peet (May 10, 2018)

I'd like to razor blade it to see if it has tyloses or crystalline structure... Glad to see 1 of the 3 I mentioned looks good after cleaning things up. The outdoor furniture feel was my lead, and yes, I've seen both 'Kapur' and 'Keruing' sold with ribbon graining, however, they were just trade names and not voucher sourced.

Thanks for the post Paul...

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## tomwilson74 (May 10, 2018)

Should I expect any problems with glue-ups?


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## Mr. Peet (May 10, 2018)

tomwilson74 said:


> Should I expect any problems with glue-ups?


Yes, make sure glue faces are clean, rubbing alcohol advised (oleoresin). Match grain, so they work together, not apart. I have only used Titebond 2 & 3 with this wood, others hopefully have feedback on other glues with this wood. 

Are your finished products going to be inside? If so, this is good. If outside and exposed to WV seasonal elements, laminates do not do well over the long run. Might want to look up the movement (stability). It is high with 'Keruing' (Apitong).


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## tomwilson74 (May 10, 2018)

I had thought about laminating with walnut. To make a bandsaw box and a clock.


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## barry richardson (May 10, 2018)

tomwilson74 said:


> I had thought about laminating with walnut. To make a bandsaw box and a clock.


I made a couple of small furniture pieces with it and had no problems with glue up and I actually have an outside barbecue table that's been outside for years and seems to be doing okay just weathered and checked, one thing I remember about the wood is that is is very resinous and will fowl up your blade pretty quick...


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## Mr. Peet (May 11, 2018)

barry richardson said:


> I made a couple of small furniture pieces with it and had no problems with glue up and I actually have an outside barbecue table that's been outside for years and seems to be doing okay just weathered and checked, one thing I remember about the wood is that is is very resinous and will fowl up your blade pretty quick...



Is the outdoor BBQ table laminated in any areas? Yeah, that oleoresin does a number, not to mention the high silicates in the wood...


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## barry richardson (May 11, 2018)

Mr. Peet said:


> Is the outdoor BBQ table laminated in any areas? Yeah, that oleoresin does a number, not to mention the high silicates in the wood...


Yes, the top is a glue-up of several sticks

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## tomwilson74 (May 23, 2018)

I think it turned out well with 4 coats of polyurethane on it.

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## phinds (May 23, 2018)

Nice

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## RhodesHardwood (Jun 26, 2018)

I would guess this wood to be Cumaru.


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## tomwilson74 (Jun 26, 2018)

It’s apitong


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## phinds (Jun 26, 2018)

RhodesHardwood said:


> I would guess this wood to be Cumaru.


Unlikely but not impossible. @Mr. Peet has the sample right now, to do a razor cut and look for tylosis. We'll see what he has to say but unless he finds differently, I stand by my original analysis (see post #24).


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## tomwilson74 (Jun 26, 2018)

Phinds, he said it was Apitong.


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## phinds (Jun 26, 2018)

tomwilson74 said:


> Phinds, he said it was Apitong.


As did I, but he wanted to double check the tylosis and he is doing so.

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## Mr. Peet (Jun 28, 2018)

phinds said:


> Unlikely but not impossible. @Mr. Peet has the sample right now, to do a razor cut and look for tylosis. We'll see what he has to say but unless he finds differently, I stand by my original analysis (see post #24).



It clearly has some tyloses and lots of silica lining pore walls. This sample is far heavier than my reference samples for the genus. I seem to have misplaced my _Dipterocarpus alatus_ sample, so can not comment there. The black hue in the wood appears to parallel the edges, so can only assume a result of weathering.

The *Wood Database* list the group at 46 pounds per cubic foot. The sample I have from Paul works out to 65 pounds per cubic foot, which is in line with 'Cumaru'. Cumaru does not have tyloses, but does have prismatic crystals (similar). The sample glows under black light, however not normally. On the end grain sides, it shows reaction from the outer edge down to the level where the black hue is, then stops. This makes me think it may be a fungal reaction being seen. The Dipteryx group all show wing (aliform) evidence around pores, the questionable one does not.

Sorry folks, I can not confirm and lack time to look into it much further...

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## phinds (Jun 28, 2018)

'preciate the effort Mark.


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## phinds (Sep 29, 2018)

Mr. Peet said:


> It clearly has some tyloses and lots of silica lining pore walls. This sample is far heavier than my reference samples for the genus. I seem to have misplaced my _Dipterocarpus alatus_ sample, so can not comment there. The black hue in the wood appears to parallel the edges, so can only assume a result of weathering.
> 
> The *Wood Database* list the group at 46 pounds per cubic foot. The sample I have from Paul works out to 65 pounds per cubic foot, which is in line with 'Cumaru'. Cumaru does not have tyloses, but does have prismatic crystals (similar). The sample glows under black light, however not normally. On the end grain sides, it shows reaction from the outer edge down to the level where the black hue is, then stops. This makes me think it may be a fungal reaction being seen. The Dipteryx group all show wing (aliform) evidence around pores, the questionable one does not.
> 
> Sorry folks, I can not confirm and lack time to look into it much further...


Mark, now that I have the piece back I've double-checked it against your comments. I get a slightly lower density but not by much (62lbs/cuft) and I agree it is out of the ball park for apitong/keuring. The end grain is definitely not cumaru and still looks more like apitong than anything else I can find. See my post #24 --- it's a dead-on match. SO ... it's another damned puzzle. I HATE it when it does that


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