# The Chinese are buying up the world's wood samples



## phinds (Oct 10, 2013)

There is an organization that you may have heard of called the "International Wood Collector's Society", or IWCS.

They set the standard for formal wood samples at 3"x6"x1/2". Years ago many of their members made up samples of this size from trees they had personally felled, or at least positively identified, and they traded them amongst themselves and some sold them to other members and to non-members (like me) who wanted them.

Some members accumulated thousands of species this way and many more collected hundreds.

Today there are only a handful of IWCS members in the USA who actively create and sell samples and they have relatively few species compared to what was available say 10 years ago because they are not as active (most are retirement age) and they have fewer other members to trade with. Outside the US, there are even fewer IWCS members, by country, that create and sell samples and in total they also add up to only a handful around the world.

My friend David Clark from Australia (Timbers in Australia in Colour --- yeah, he can't spell  ) is buying up, on behalf of a couple of Chinese wood scientists, all the samples he can get his hands on, up to a current limit of 4 of each species that a collector has for sale. Many collectors only have a few of each species for sale except for the most common ones so David is seriously decimating their sample sets.

Personally, I have no beef with this, and I'm very appreciative of the fact that David is funneling many of these samples through me so that I can take pics of them for my site before forwarding them on to him. Those he buys outside the USA he has sent directly to Australia.

BUT ... I am mixed about the fact that China is buying up all (well, most) of the samples currently available and IWCS members are producing fewer and fewer new ones. David currently plans to buy at least 7,000 samples, including 2,000 or so already purchased, from no more than 10 or so IWCS members (that's all he can find to buy from) and this will come close to wiping out all of their stock for some of them.

Comments? Thoughts?

Paul


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## Mike1950 (Oct 10, 2013)

What are the Chinese going to do with them. Seems harmless- I hope everyone is getting plenty of $$$ for the samples.


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## Kevin (Oct 10, 2013)

I have customers and contacts who are/were ICWS members also. I may have even joined myself years ago but I cannot remember if I did - I was thinking about it. But the lack of activity even back then was why I was apprehensive and this was about 7 years ago. 

I have no idea why the coolies want to have samples of every species on the planet, but I can guarantee it's not just for kicks and grins. It will ultimately be for some sort of economic exploitation, but figuring out the how and why is the ¥64, 000 Renminbi question.


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## ripjack13 (Oct 10, 2013)

Cloning....


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## Molokai (Oct 10, 2013)

What is the price of one sample?
i also dont see what will they do with it.


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## Molokai (Oct 10, 2013)

ripjack13 said:


> Cloning....



:rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3:


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## phinds (Oct 10, 2013)

Oh, I should have been more clear. They are doing it in order to create xylariums that will (1) be used to help identify imported wood and (2) be used to help train wood scientists. It's a perfectly reasonable and understandable rationale and yeah, I think David's getting some mark-up on the samples.


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## phinds (Oct 10, 2013)

Molokai said:


> What is the price of one sample?



Prices range from $1.50 for really common stuff like pine to $25 for really exotic species (some of the less common Dalbergias for example, and burls). I personally have never bought any that cost more than about $4 but David is indifferent to price since he's been told by the Chinese that money is no object.


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## TimR (Oct 10, 2013)

Given the current state of goods I see out of the eastern hemisphere, I'd say a way to have samples for possible knockoff of western hemisphere resources. Then again, could just be curious collectors.


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## phinds (Oct 10, 2013)

TimR said:


> Given the current state of goods I see out of the eastern hemisphere, I'd say a way to have samples for possible knockoff of western hemisphere resources. Then again, could just be curious collectors.



I don't follow you at all.


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## BurlsorBust (Oct 10, 2013)

I know you are talking samples, but the Chinese are buying up all the good exotics at alarming rates; cocobolo, amboyna, ebony. They got it all. That is why we (USA) cannot get much or any decent pricing. I think it is discouraging, especially the amount of USA based importers that export to China directly without giving local woodworkers a shot at the good wood at all.

Kinda sad to see in my eyes.


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## phinds (Oct 10, 2013)

BurlsorBust said:


> I know you are talking samples, but the Chinese are buying up all the good exotics at alarming rates; cocobolo, amboyna, ebony. They got it all. That is why we (USA) cannot get much or any decent pricing. I think it is discouraging, especially the amount of USA based importers that export to China directly without giving local woodworkers a shot at the good wood at all.
> 
> Kinda sad to see in my eyes.



Yeah you are right. David tells me stories, for example, of seeing Chinese lumber yards stocked with cocobolo trees that they have imported. He tells me that the Chinese rich, and there are a lot of them, are all _nouveau riche_ and don't really care what they pay for exotic wood furniture. His sister-in-law paid something like $20,000 for a dining room set made from some rosewood and David tells me it's not even particularly good quality wood OR cabinetry.


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## Mike1950 (Oct 10, 2013)

I have thought about this deeply.... As long as they leave jelly belly's alone I am ok with it... :rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3:

Seriously- we wanted a one world economy -at least the majority did- and welcome to it. Market forces will drive costs. 
I do think though our on restrictions on wood imports are probably more responsible for keeping exotics out of woodworkers hands then the Chinese. We are at a distinct disadvantage when our wood has to be certified-green and theirs---well it has to be wood and that is all.
I look at what has happened to the huge lumber industry we had here in the PNW until -the greenies found the spotted owl- all 50 of them killed a very viable multi billion industry. And now the joke is really on the greenies- less open areas has made the barred owl flourish and it is killing the spotted owl- personally I think it is G Bush's fault.. :rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3:


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## Treecycle Hardwoods (Oct 10, 2013)

BurlsorBust said:


> I know you are talking samples, but the Chinese are buying up all the good exotics at alarming rates; cocobolo, amboyna, ebony. They got it all. That is why we (USA) cannot get much or any decent pricing. I think it is discouraging, especially the amount of USA based importers that export to China directly without giving local woodworkers a shot at the good wood at all.
> 
> Kinda sad to see in my eyes.



The Chinese are enjoying a substantial growth in their economy and individual wealth. Along with that comes demand for more upscale things like furniture and other items made from the coolest wood. In the market place wood behaves like any other commodity. With another big buyer like the Chinese the price will stay up and the supply of the coolest items will be more scarce. I am most concerned with the fact that their buying power is competing with ours and on some fronts winning. Woodworking is an area where they seem to be winning and buying more of the good stuff than we are. You can't fault them for wanting knowledge on the various woods of the world when they are consuming so much of it. They are looking for angles to be competitive we should be doing the same but we are stuck in the mentality that someone else will do it. As a whole country if we do not get back on the horse and lead the world it may not be a military victory we need to worry about winning. :i_dunno::i_dunno:


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## Kevin (Oct 10, 2013)

I've decided to become a Chinaman, but live here as a resident alien. That said . . 

_Preeze, all voo dam yonkee senz all da vood to me nowa . . . . _


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## Treecycle Hardwoods (Oct 10, 2013)

Kevin said:


> I've decided to become a Chinaman, but live here as a resident alien. That said . .
> 
> _Preeze, all voo dam yonkee senz all da vood to me nowa . . . . _



be sure to get some food stamps, drivers license, and all the other goodies we give out to aliens.


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## Mike1950 (Oct 10, 2013)

Kevin said:


> I've decided to become a Chinaman, but live here as a resident alien. That said . .
> 
> _Preeze, all voo dam yonkee senz all da vood to me nowa . . . . _



Hell I thought Irishman were already resident aliens................... never happy- now you want double illegal alien status.................:dash2::dash2::dash2::dash2::fit:


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## Kevin (Oct 10, 2013)

What do you get when you cross an Irishman with a Chinaman? A laundryman too short to reach the clothesline and too damned drunk to find it anyway.

:rotflmao3:


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## Treecycle Hardwoods (Oct 10, 2013)

Kevin said:


> What do you get when you cross an Irishman with a Chinaman? A laundryman too short to reach the clothesline and too damned drunk to find it anyway.
> 
> :rotflmao3:



:rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3:


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## phinds (Oct 10, 2013)

Kevin said:


> What do you get when you cross an Irishman with a Chinaman? A laundryman too short to reach the clothesline and too damned drunk to find it anyway.



:rotflmao3:


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## BurlsorBust (Oct 10, 2013)

Mike1950 said:


> I do think though our on restrictions on wood imports are probably more responsible for keeping exotics out of woodworkers hands then the Chinese. We are at a distinct disadvantage when our wood has to be certified-green and theirs---well it has to be wood and that is all.
> I look at what has happened to the huge lumber industry we had here in the PNW until -the greenies found the spotted owl- all 50 of them killed a very viable multi billion industry. And now the joke is really on the greenies- less open appears has made the barred owl flourish and it is killing the spotted owl- personally I think it is G Bush's fault.. :rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3:



Mike, I completely agree with your points, very valid indeed. That is a barrier we'll never be able to compete with them on, but there still are lots of sustainable American owned operations that bypass American consumers and deal straight with China because of the quantities and prices they will buy. They could sell here, but either do not or sell very little here. I get both sides of the arguments, but am still frustrated to hear how much the Chinese are really buying up. Tons upon tons.


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## sprucegum (Oct 10, 2013)

Kevin said:


> What do you get when you cross an Irishman with a Chinaman? A laundryman too short to reach the clothesline and too damned drunk to find it anyway.
> 
> :rotflmao3:



I have heard it said that a Irishman is not drunk as long as he can lie flat on his face, hang on to a blade of grass with both hands and not fall off the face of the earth.


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## LoneStar (Oct 11, 2013)

As far as Chinese buyers go, that's also a huge thing in the Pipe world. I know guys who have got offers from Chinese that want to buy 100% of their production at retail prices.... That is a tempting offer...
At the major Pipe Shows, these guys walk around with interpreters and backpacks full of cash. They carry letters from their government saying they're wholesale buyers and thats why they're carrying huge amounts of currency (or so I've heard).
Some guys (very few) refuse to sell to them. Their thinking is that in a few years the chinese will be knocking off our work and all of this easy money is going to dry up. 
I personally don't have a problem selling to them, but wouldn't put all my eggs in their basket.


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## ChrisK (Oct 11, 2013)

Same stories here in Europe. Recently, a TV report talked about the Chinese purchasing tons of Belgian beech and oak. A Greek wood dealer told me the Chinese are purchasing whatever wood they can in large quantities.


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## Patrude (Oct 11, 2013)

phinds said:


> There is an organization that you may have heard of called the "International Wood Collector's Society", or IWCS.
> 
> They set the standard for formal wood samples at 3"x6"x1/2". Years ago many of their members made up samples of this size from trees they had personally felled, or at least positively identified, and they traded them amongst themselves and some sold them to other members and to non-members (like me) who wanted them.
> 
> ...



this remindes me of a conversation I had with a well known exotic wood vendor here on the east coast a few months back. I had called to inquire about some wood and he said that one and a lot of others are getting extremely scarce because the Chinese are buying up all they can get. He also said at the time that the only stuff that wasn't being bought up was the more plentiful exotics. He said that anything rare was being bought up. It did get me concerned, and I couldn't and still can not understand what reason there would be for it . if in fact it is true, there isn't much anyone can do about it except go on to other species; Domestic included. I would be interested in knowing how many folks have run across this concern.


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## Kevin (Oct 11, 2013)

I get RFQ from Chinese buyers frequently. By frequently I mean several times a month and sometimes several a week. It stems ffrom having my powder creek website and the buyers are all casting their nets far and wide on this same buying spree being discussed. I didn't know it was so pervasive worldwide. They are building what is called "Ghost Cities" and I guess that's where the wood is al going. I don't know for certain - just a guess. Virtually all the RFQs I get are for ERC so I know they are actually serious buy offers targeting what I have, and I could probably make a shiny nickel if I pursued it but since I am too busy sitting on the couch watching Oprah and eating bon bons I just can't squeeze them in.....

Reactions: Like 1


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## TimR (Oct 11, 2013)

phinds said:


> TimR said:
> 
> 
> > Given the current state of goods I see out of the eastern hemisphere, I'd say a way to have samples for possible knockoff of western hemisphere resources. Then again, could just be curious collectors.
> ...



i.e take a relatively cheap available wood and create a faux version using good samples, and sell as the hi grade wood? Perhaps a bit far-fetched, but given dwindling supplies of some premium woods and the increase of incomes around the world... ? But hey, could be an innocent desire to collect too


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## ripjack13 (Oct 11, 2013)

There no innocence with them.....they have a reason. Just gotta finger it out.


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## Mike1950 (Oct 11, 2013)

Kevin said:


> I get RFQ from Chinese buyers frequently. By frequently I mean several times a month and sometimes several a week. It stems ffrom having my powder creek website and the buyers are all casting their nets far and wide on this same buying spree being discussed. I didn't know it was so pervasive worldwide. They are building what is called "Ghost Cities" and I guess that's where the wood is al going. I don't know for certain - just a guess. Virtually all the RFQs I get are for ERC so I know they are actually serious buy offers targeting what I have, and I could probably make a shiny nickel if I pursued it but since I am too busy sitting on the couch watching Oprah and eating bon bons I just can't squeeze them in.....



They have the ghost cities and they also have the worlds largest wind power project in the world. I read where it is in excess of 100 billion. It is in the steppes of Mongolia- middle of nowhere- plenty of wind- one minor problem though. no powerline infrastructure for hundreds of miles nor a local need. 
Chinese accounting is by no means accountable. 
I worked on a house in 96, 25,000 sq ft. they got the slate roof from china cause it was half the cost. first major storm took almost all the roof off- it broke down in the cold weather. Repair bill for my work was 25k. The supplier went BK because the Chinese exporter basically took the money and ran. Different set of rules.


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## phinds (Oct 11, 2013)

TimR said:


> phinds said:
> 
> 
> > TimR said:
> ...



Ah ... I see what you're saying. Yeah, could be, but these guys ARE wood scientists (albeit CHINESE wood scientists) so I tend to take the xylarium concept at face value. But then, I'm naive.


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## Cross Sawmill (Oct 25, 2013)

Mutual Respect and Sensitivity is important aka PC/ Politically Correct behavior. That being said, It IS hard to compete with a labor force that is basically being held in slavery. Especially when WE (USA Americans) vote with our POCKETBOOKS. Look around Your shop and see Who YOU (AND ME) are subsidizing? Intellectual Property is some of the most valuable Property available and People are continually trying to acquire other Peoples IP by spying. There will not be spying on the Wood Samples as they will be secured in a vault.


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