# Cherry vs Alder



## Nature Man (Jan 15, 2019)

I picked up a box of long cutoffs that is a mix of Cherry and Alder. It is rather hard to determine which board is which species just by looking. I tried the scratch & sniff routine, but it was inexact to say the least! Anyone have any ideas on how I might definitively ID each board? Thanks! Chuck


----------



## phinds (Jan 15, 2019)

Trivially easy. Just look at the end grain. My site will show you the difference, which is quite clear.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## Arn213 (Jan 15, 2019)

Outside of the end grain, you can separate the Alder and the Cherry by weight per board foot. Cherry is heavier at over 3 pounds plus per board foot and Alder ranges anywhere from 2 pounds per board foot (ideal guitar weight) to 2.8 pounds per board foot (chambered weight on guitars)- I have never ran into an Alder that hit the the 3 pound mark. Alder is in the softer side for a hardwood compare to cherry- alders dents easier than cherry. Easily a 30% Janka Hardness difference between the 2 where the Cherry wood is at over 900 lbs. Similar analogy as far as Janka Hardness and density is like comparing exotic Spanish cedar to Honduran mahogany. Alder and cherry do have similar color in the raw, but cherry has a slight pinkish cast.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## Nature Man (Jan 16, 2019)

phinds said:


> Trivially easy. Just look at the end grain. My site will show you the difference, which is quite clear.


Can see I need to do some serious end grain sanding to simplify the identification on about 35 boards, each board probably about 1/3 board feet. Weight differences are hard to detect on such small boards. Haven't tried a dent test. I'll bust out the sanders and go to work! Thanks for the input! Chuck


----------



## phinds (Jan 16, 2019)

Nature Man said:


> Can see I need to do some serious end grain sanding to simplify the identification on about 35 boards, each board probably about 1/3 board feet. Weight differences are hard to detect on such small boards. Haven't tried a dent test. I'll bust out the sanders and go to work! Thanks for the input! Chuck


If you have a 10X loupe, you can just take an exacto knife (or any sharp blade) to one edge of each. You can get enough in a 1/4 wide cut to see the end grain clearly.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## Mike1950 (Jan 16, 2019)

smell- cherry has a wonderful smell. cherry also is not as grainy to work with. But cut a chunk on chop saw- quick and sure test-smell.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## Mr. Peet (Jan 16, 2019)

Hey Chuck,

Another day, how is the separation going? Mike's idea works well for many. Smokers tend to have a harder time using sense of smell. Plus Mike's way, you only lose a blade width or less. 

Paul's razor blade idea is quick, as long as your hand is steady and confidence high.

I would have thought Arnold's idea the quickest otherwise. After a few days in the shop, they are all at moisture balance. Number each board. You said they were small, so on your note pad figure cubic inches per each and write it down by the ID number. Use your canning/shipping scale to measure ounces for each and record next to the ID number. Use the two calculations for each piece of wood. A clear pattern will emerge based on the ratios to separate the 2 wood species...It does not matter which you use for the dividend or the divisor as long as you do the same for each wood, the quotient will reveal the truth.

Avoid pounds and feet to keep things simple.


----------



## phinds (Jan 16, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> Paul's razor blade idea is quick, as long as your hand is steady and confidence high.


Let me second that by saying that I NEVER use the razor blade method because I KNOW that I am way more likely to cut off body parts than I am to get a clean edge cut.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Nature Man (Jan 16, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> Hey Chuck,
> 
> Another day, how is the separation going? Mike's idea works well for many. Smokers tend to have a harder time using sense of smell. Plus Mike's way, you only lose a blade width or less.
> 
> ...


I will try to do Mike's mitre saw cut today. I'm not a smoker so this might work. In any event, it will give me a more crisp look at end grain. Wood is very dry. Don't have a scale, but that scientific method would be fool proof. Appreciate the ideas! Will let you know the results later. Chuck

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Mr. Peet (Jan 16, 2019)

Nature Man said:


> I will try to do Mike's mitre saw cut today. I'm not a smoker so this might work. In any event, it will give me a more crisp look at end grain. Wood is very dry. Don't have a scale, but that scientific method would be fool proof. Appreciate the ideas! Will let you know the results later. Chuck



*NO SCALE,* how do you do moisture confirmations? Guess canning food is out of the question. Have any friends in the outside world. My father never did any of the grocery shopping as far as I know, but when he needed a precise weight, there he was at the deli weighing what ever. Then he would stop at the USPS and have them confirm the deli scale weights.

As for me, $3.00 at the thrift store for a quality canning scale. Salvation Army might be another place worth looking. What am I saying, you live in California, you can pull off the deli thing. Or go to the USPS and weigh each, wanting to know, in case to ship a piece to a friend.

Lots of options...


----------



## Nature Man (Jan 16, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> *NO SCALE,* how do you do moisture confirmations? Guess canning food is out of the question. Have any friends in the outside world. My father never did any of the grocery shopping as far as I know, but when he needed a precise weight, there he was at the deli weighing what ever. Then he would stop at the USPS and have them confirm the deli scale weights.
> 
> As for me, $3.00 at the thrift store for a quality canning scale. Salvation Army might be another place worth looking. What am I saying, you live in California, you can pull off the deli thing. Or go to the USPS and weigh each, wanting to know, in case to ship a piece to a friend.
> 
> Lots of options...


Thanks! Love options. Talked to wife, and she couldn't think of friend with scale. Will have to remedy! Chuck


----------



## Arn213 (Jan 16, 2019)

Three things I count on to get me numbers is my measuring tape, my moisture meter and my Mettler Toledo scale. Those things help me determine via “numbers” in the difference between soft or hard maple and any other woods. Alder is one of those woods that is used a lot for guitar building (including swamp ash) and a body blank in the raw can help me determine the final body weight outcome via “numbers”, so there is less guess work.

I know it is hard to determine the difference between alder and cherry because both have quite face grain (compare to ash or oak). Like I mentioned earlier, Alder is in the softer side for hardwood and you can easily make an indentation whereas cherry, you would have to make an effort. 

Paul, Mike and Mark have really good suggestions. To go with Mike said, when you cut the ends the cherry will smell fruity with a slight pungent note, while as the Alder to me has almost this recycled cardboard box like smell. Might be good if you just separated them from each other and let them air out as they could smell close together when they are bundled into a package from shipments.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## Nature Man (Jan 16, 2019)

Arn213 said:


> Three things I count on to get me numbers is my measuring tape, my moisture meter and my Mettler Toledo scale. Those things help me determine via “numbers” in the difference between soft or hard maple and any other woods. Alder is one of those woods that is used a lot for guitar building (including swamp ash) and a body blank in the raw can help me determine the final body weight outcome, so there is less guess work.
> 
> I know it is hard to determine the difference between alder and cherry because both have quite face grain (compare to ash or oak). Like I mentioned earlier, Alder is in the softer side for hardwood and you can easily make an indentation whereas cherry, you would have to make an effort.
> 
> Paul, Mike and Mark have really good suggestions. To go with Mike said, when you cut the ends the cherry will smell fruity with a slight pungent note, while as the Alder to me has almost this recycled cardboard box like smell. Might be good if you just separated them from each other and let them air out as they could smell close together when they are bundled into a package from shipments.


Thanks! I need to arm myself with all the proper equipment -- like your suggestions. The wood has been mixed in a box for a couple of years, and that undoubtedly skewed my initial scratch & sniff test. Think with a fresh cut that may help in deciphering which is which. If not, then I have a couple more options. Chuck


----------



## Mike1950 (Jan 16, 2019)

I bought a digital online gor $35 it weighs up to 400 lbs.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## Arn213 (Jan 16, 2019)

The Mettler PS60 I have had very good luck with and has been accurate for my needs. Could easily calculate shipping and spot on when I ship and print labels. It is “dead on” when I compare my billable weight and when the carrier scans the weight on the package. UPS*, FedEx* and the post office all use it now- part of the reason I use it because I wanted to get the guess work out and have it closely sync with the carriers scales. Max is 150 pounds. I bought 2 of them use (one for back up) at a quarter of a price compare to what they charge now! The only thing it does not do is give you exact ounces as it does grow weight- you would have to convert the number after the decimal point and this is probably the slight downside of it (if you are building guitars). So if it is 5.2 pounds, you would have to multiply the 5.2 pounds to 1.6 = 5 pounds, 3.2 ounces. It has been durable and dependable, very solid, plus it is made here in the US (not sure if the recent one’s are still made here).

But, as Mike mention there are digital scales much more inexpensive and could go upwards of 400 pounds at a fraction of the cost.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## Nature Man (Jan 18, 2019)

Report back on my initial findings. There are 26 pieces of wood, all of which I shaved off one end to see what I could find. I found it difficult, without further sanding, to reconcile the end grain patterns to assess with certainty the wood types of each of the pieces. I did somewhat conclude because of relatives weights (w/o a scale) that it appears there may be only (2) pieces of Alder, and (24) pieces of Cherry. I did number every piece and plan to do a more scientific research once I get a scale. Smell test after the cuts did not help whatsoever. This project will go back on the shelf until I obtain a scale. Thanks for everyone's input. Chuck


----------



## Mr. Peet (Jan 18, 2019)

Now Chuck, I assume you preset / trained your nose first? Implying, you cut a known cherry board to waft the scent, before cutting the other boards.

Reactions: Useful 1


----------



## FranklinWorkshops (Jan 18, 2019)

Chuck, just mail them all to me. I'll separate out the cherry and send you back the alder. I'm good at identifying cherry.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Nature Man (Jan 18, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> Now Chuck, I assume you preset / trained your nose first? Implying, you cut a known cherry board to waft the scent, before cutting the other boards.


I tried... I am working on a Cherry bowl separately, from a known block of Cherry from a friend. It smells Heavenly. These cutoffs came from a cabinetmaker here locally, and have been boxed up together for quite awhile -- they all smell alike now. Chuck


----------



## Nature Man (Jan 18, 2019)

FranklinWorkshops said:


> Chuck, just mail them all to me. I'll separate out the cherry and send you back the alder. I'm good at identifying cherry.


Now that would be a good deal. You get 24 and I would get 2, presuming my initial guess was correct... Think you would have to sweeten up the pot a bit! Chuck

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Nature Man (Feb 20, 2019)

Final report. Now have a scale and a moisture meter. Moisture reads less than 5% for the boards. I computed board feet for each board and weighed each board in ounces. Put everything in a spreadsheet, with a formula to calculate weight/board feet in pounds. The two boards that I thought were Alder came in at 2.09 and 2.10. The remainder of the boards ranged from 2.54 to 3.53 (with an average of 2.99), and I am presuming these are, indeed, Cherry. Think this mystery is solved. Chuck

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## FranklinWorkshops (Feb 21, 2019)

Alder is a great smoking wood for salmon. Used some this past weekend.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## Arn213 (Feb 21, 2019)

Nature Man said:


> Final report. Now have a scale and a moisture meter. Moisture reads less than 5% for the boards. I computed board feet for each board and weighed each board in ounces. Put everything in a spreadsheet, with a formula to calculate weight/board feet in pounds. The two boards that I thought were Alder came in at 2.09 and 2.10. The remainder of the boards ranged from 2.54 to 3.53 (with an average of 2.99), and I am presuming these are, indeed, Cherry. Think this mystery is solved. Chuck



Great work Chuck and nice to have proper tools to get to the bottom of things with the spread sheet and all..........so should I send you some mysterious woods and put the new scale, new moisture meter and spread sheet to work


----------



## Nature Man (Feb 21, 2019)

Arn213 said:


> Great work Chuck and nice to have proper tools to get to the bottom of things with the spread sheet and all..........so should I send you some mysterious woods and put the new scale, new moisture meter and spread sheet to work


Yikes!!! Although I am set up to do it, it's pretty labor intensive. Chuck


----------



## Arn213 (Feb 21, 2019)

Nature Man said:


> Yikes!!! Although I am set up to do it, it's pretty labor intensive. Chuck



Yes, I know.....I wouldn’t want that job....send me to another work station....... I’ll peel potatoes if I have to.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------

