# Help with guitar wood IDing



## omoz (May 18, 2021)

Hi all, apologies if this is entirely the wrong forum for this, but I figured there might be some expert opinions to gather here.

I have aqcuired an old acoustic guitar from the 60s, and have very little info on the wood used, apart from the top being spruce.

The back and sides are presumably from the same species, as this is common, but I am not sure which species. The guitar is painted, but the grain is visible. From a chip in the paint I can tell that the wood appears white/light gray in color. The unpainted inside of the guitar is a bit darker, presumably from aging.

I know that the builder sometimes used American maple, walnut, as well as various Japanese woods, but to me it looks like it could also be birch, or perhaps something else entirely? Interested to hear any opinions.

Also attaching a picture of the fretboard, since I have never seen a grain quite like it. I assume it is rosewood, as this would again be common, but I know Pau Ferro was used at some point as well.

Not critical to ID these woods for any purpose other than my curiosity, but grateful for any insight!


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## Arn213 (May 18, 2021)

You need to disclose the brand and the interior label- it is blocked out. Need front of headstock shot and back of the headstock- that will tell you the brand and maker. The back of the headstock should give you a serial number, where it is made and if not, you will find all of this in the interior label. It does have a burst finish. Yes, the fretboard is genuine rosewood and you probably want to know if it it the “holy grail” of all rosewoods?

Can you post more photo’s with general shots and close ups- there are missing pieces in the puzzle to figure out what this is. Need some interior photo’s as well as that will give you a clue of what wood it might be (the back and the sides) because it is not stained or bursted. Import guitars or lower version production guitars will have veneered back and sides over some generic wood.

Just not enough photographic information and it would help identify it with more information. Typical companies will use specific woods basically based on tried and true formulas. 

By the way, this needs addressing if you want to get your guitar closer to optimal playability- the saddle or the nut spacing is not equally spaced. You can tell by the spacing on your strings on the fretboard.....see how close the d string is to the dot inlay and how far away the g string to the dot inlay? Same thing is going on with both e strings as one is about to fall off the board and the other is closer into the middle.


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## omoz (May 18, 2021)

Hi, thanks for the reply!

The guitar was made by a Norwegian luthier in the 60s, so not a well known brand, and no headstock markings. There is little information available on the luthier and his methods, and I have found no more than what I put in the initial post as far as his typical wood choices go. I heard he got some contacts through the Hagström factory for importing woods when he did not source it locally.

I would be extremely surprised if the back and sides were veneered, but will try to get some more pics up.


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## barry richardson (May 18, 2021)

Hmmmm, I wonder if it's the same Norwegian wood The Beatles sang of...

Reactions: Funny 3


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## phinds (May 18, 2021)

The fretboard is Brazilian rosewood. The grain pattern near the bottom is one that as far as I know is only found on Brazilian rosewood.

I've seen better similarities than the best pic I could find off-hand but here it is


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## DLJeffs (May 18, 2021)

The inside usually is not painted or finished so you might get better grain and color pics through the sound hole.


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## Arn213 (May 19, 2021)

phinds said:


> The fretboard is Brazilian rosewood. The grain pattern near the bottom is one that as far as I know is only found on Brazilian rosewood.


I eluded to that in the first paragraph and last sentence- “the holy grail”. Brazilian rosewood is referred to that in the guitar industry. One of the key terms he states that this guitars was “made in the 1960’s”. But, when in the 1960’s was this guitar built because Brazil put an export ban on Brazilian rosewood in 1968- this affected the whole guitar industry and this is a known fact so companies and small luthiers switched to India East Indian rosewood or some other genuine rosewood in manufacturing guitars. I am on the fence whether this fretboard is Brazilian rosewood/dalbergia nigra which was commonly used back then. The finished guitar fretboard has too pronounced surface grain lines and they are too crisp and the gauge on them are on the thicker side. The grain pattern is more “landscape” and has traces of “spider webbing” at the end- I posted a clear definition and example on this on several threads here and I posted examples of my own stock with “spiderwebbing and landscape” grain pattern. Need to see the entire fretboard and need to see more photo’s. You can also remove the nut and take a photo of the end grain of the rosewood. In my opinion this fretboard has visual elements an possibly of another Brazilian rosewood- which is “Amazon rosewood”, dalbergia spruceana. Amazon rosewood is however denser and has a fluorescence feature. I am basing that based on thickness of the grain. Cocobolo and Amazon rosewood shares the same grain thickness elements.

Spider webbing and landscape pattern is “not” only found on Brazilian rosewood- it exist on other species predominantly in Ziricote (non rosewood), Madagascar rosewood and Cocobolo.

Here is exhibit “A” photo for reference purpose of 3 Brazilian rosewood fretboards with “landscape and spider webbing” grain pattern. Take note of the grain gauge:

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Arn213 (May 19, 2021)

DLJeffs said:


> The inside usually is not painted or finished so you might get better grain and color pics through the sound hole.


I mentioned about taking interior photo’s as well. Some actually paint the interior, usually with shellac. but it is generally not advisable for repair purposes.

I don’t think the backs and sides are veneer because they are flat sawn cut- but you can check that by pulling out the strap pin at the lower bout. But I can be wrong about that because no one in their right mind will use a one piece flat sawn back that is 16” wide because it will tend to cup and distort. Companies will tend to put say a mahogany core and they would put a veneer on the outside of the guitar and the inside of the guitar (you would see a lot of this treatment in the 60’s of lower tier guitars). The lower budget guitars would tend to have the nicer veneer applied at the exterior and the veneer at the interior is not from the same flitch as the outside- that is one way you know that it is a veneer application as the color and grain will not mirror each other. The higher budget guitar would do better as they will use the same flitch for the outside and inside veneer- they tend to be book-matched. So, this application can fool people thinking this guitar is solid rosewood because the grain and color on the veneer mirrors the exterior and interior. 

There are a lot of Brazilian rosewood veneered guitars that were made and some people who sells guitars will “pitch” a sale that the guitar is solid rosewood. This happens a lot with Brazilian rosewood veneered guitars- a large amount were imports (Japan). Do your due diligence if you don’t want to get fooled and spend a great deal of $$$$- only find out later that the guitar is only veneer out of Brazilian rosewood.


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## omoz (May 19, 2021)

Thanks all for the replies! I did not spend much $$ on this at all, as these are not considered very collectible, but still interesting to investigate more.



barry richardson said:


> Hmmmm, I wonder if it's the same Norwegian wood The Beatles sang of...


Hm, the seller did have a yellow submarine parked in the driveway..  



Arn213 said:


> But, when in the 1960’s was this guitar built because Brazil put an export ban on Brazilian rosewood in 1968


The guitar was likely made in 1964, and no later than early '66.

It is currently being shipped to me across the country, so no interior photos yet, but here are a few more that could be helpful. The chip in the paint near the binding is on the back side of the guitar.


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## phinds (May 19, 2021)

Arn213 said:


> I eluded to that


You might want to look up "elude" in a dictionary.


Arn213 said:


> Spider webbing and landscape pattern is “not” only found on Brazilian rosewood- it exist on other species predominantly in Ziricote (non rosewood), Madagascar rosewood and Cocobolo.


Since there is zero possibility that this is ziricote I didn't even consider it. I SHOULD have said "among rosewoods and similar appearing woods", but you're right about the others though. My bad.


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## Arn213 (May 19, 2021)

It is a lovely guitar. The bottom bridge material is definitely Brazilian rosewood. The fretboard with the additional photo’s helps and looking more like Braz. rose- jury though is still out till you get the guitar in your hands with additional photo’s. The fretboard is stunning and striking.

The builder was ahead of his time- typical traditional guitars, the ball ends of the string enters a slot at the bridge and a pin is pushed in to keep the string in place. The luthier who build this used a “top loader” where the string enters at the rear of the bridge. That detail application has come back in fashion.


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## Arn213 (May 19, 2021)

phinds said:


> You might want to look up "elude" in a dictionary.
> 
> Since there is zero possibility that this is ziricote I didn't even consider it. I SHOULD have said "among rosewoods and similar appearing woods", but you're right about the others though. My bad.


I knew what you meant Paul and no need to apologize- I just added ziricote (hence why I stated non rosewood) because that is the most prolific species that has typical examples of spider webbing and landscape grain pattern. Those pattern actually only occur mostly on quarter cut to quarter to rift sawn cut. It doesn’t really show up for flat sawn material.

I’ll post the Brazilian rosewoods (dalbergia nigra) that I have and going to show you a comparison between the cousin, Brazilian “Amazon” rosewood (dalbergia spruceana)- they look similar that it could be hard to tell between the two of them unless you did a test. Granted the Amazon “rosewood” probably is the benchmark piece that I have not seen that quality and color for this species in the open market.

To those looking into the market for true Brazilian rosewood, buyer beware based on what I mentioned above., do due diligence and caveat emptor.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Arn213 (May 19, 2021)

@omoz - that is not chip out on the laquer finish at the waist line area. That is flaking and honest wear from being used over time. They most likely used nitrocellulose lacquer back then- you can see some crazing at areas of the guitar.

Let me bring this up and I hope it is a photo distortion. But, your string action is very, very high. I don’t know if you have incredible “Superman” strength to put that great of an effort chording and fretting as the distance between the top of the fretwire and the underside of the strings are far apart. You might be able to tweak some of that with a truss rod adjustment and hopefully you can- otherwise the worst case scenario is the guitar needs a “neck reset”.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## omoz (May 19, 2021)

@Arn213 Yes, I'm sure the guitar will be a bit off playability-wise, although the seller assured me that the action was fairly low, and that this was just a weird photo angle. I can live with high action, especially for the price, but will try to tweak a bit once I get it in hand. I will also experiment with different string gauges, or even set it up for nashville tuning. I'm sure I'll find a way to use it!

Appreciate the input on the fretboard & bridge wood!


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## Arn213 (May 19, 2021)

@omoz this photo is what I find peculiar- that is the interior label of the guitar that will usually give you the builders name, what model it is, serial number, date it was completed and the materials used. But, see it is “blocked out”. 

It gets weirder- there are no interior bracing and the grain does not match the grain make up/orientation as the exterior back. You can see the cathedral grain inside the box and the running north.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Arn213 (May 19, 2021)

PSA to those members here who is planning to purchase an acoustic or classical guitar sight unseen. Always ask for a photo of the guitar viewed from it’s side walls at 180 degrees. You want 2 close up photo’s at this specific points. One area is where the neck meets the body- it needs to be zoomed in so you can see the “action” so it will give you an idea if it is low or it is high. The second area is between the edge of the fretboard to the end of the bridge- you are looking to see if there is a “sag” between the front edge of the bridge and the end of the rosette edge. If you see a dip, convex in nature that means the top has dropped and suffered from humidity issues- naturally it should be about 180 degrees aligned with the surface plane. That usually occurs due to humidity or not properly being humidified. Can it be fixed- yes, it can and they sell a tool for that which is installed in the inside and connects to the lower bout end pin and requires drilling holes at the bridge. What it does is “Jack” the top up to it’s natural condition- yes it works like a car Jack.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## omoz (May 19, 2021)

@Arn213 Great points, and good tips for buyers! Attaching a photo that shows a bit more of that, but we'll see for sure when the guitar shows up. I would not generally recommend anyone to buy instruments like this sight unseen unless you can return it - which I can in this case.

As for the "blocking out" of the label, that was my doing, since it also had some personal info on it. Apologies for not making that clear. The label had the builder's name, a warranty statement, and a serial number. No dates, but the serial numbers were sequential, which dates the guitar to the period mentioned. No mentions of materials or other info, but I was able to find some old newspaper articles on the builder in Norwegian, and some info on his typical wood choices, as mentioned in the first post.

The builder was a woodworker, and not trained as a luthier, although he did local guitar repairs for some time before starting to build himself. He started building in the mid-late 1940s, so the designs would have had some time for refinement by the time this guitar was built.

There is some bracing right above the area of the pic you quoted. I can get better pics of that once the guitar is here. Not sure if the builder mirrored other common bracings from guitars at the time, or if he was of the more adventurous kind.

I suppose the grain not matching the back would be an indicator that it might be a veneer, or at least a multi-ply construction of some sort? I guess we will find out more once it is here. Excited to get my hands on this and investigate further!


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## Arn213 (May 19, 2021)

omoz said:


> I suppose the grain not matching the back would be an indicator that it might be a veneer, or at least a multi-ply construction of some sort?


It appears that way and no luthier in there right mind would use a one piece back that is flat sawn cut because you are asking for warranty troubles because of the span and cut- 16” wide that is. There is a possibility that the middle core veneer is plywood and then a thin veneer applied to the front and back- see my post #8 for reference. This can be determined per my previous post by removing the strap pin at the lower bout- it will give you a section of the side walls. This application here with the plywood will make it more sound and dimensionally stable. The other way a veneer is used in the front and back with the center core solid wood- that could be anywhere from maple, mahogany, etc. By the way, plywood cores has been used throughout guitar building history- it is present and very much alive mostly in arch-top building till this day. Well, it is also exist on lower tier acoustic. Yes, I know they have pickups and that is a key microphone to enhance the sound.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## DLJeffs (May 19, 2021)

Arn213 said:


> PSA to those members here who is planning to purchase an acoustic or classical guitar sight unseen. Always ask for a photo of the guitar viewed from it’s side walls at 180 degrees. You want 2 close up photo’s at this specific points. One area is where the neck meets the body- it needs to be zoomed in so you can see the “action” so it will give you an idea if it is low or it is high. The second area is between the edge of the fretboard to the end of the bridge- you are looking to see if there is a “sag” between the front edge of the bridge and the end of the rosette edge. If you see a dip, convex in nature that means the top has dropped and suffered from humidity issues- naturally it should be about 180 degrees aligned with the surface plane. That usually occurs due to humidity or not properly being humidified. Can it be fixed- yes, it can and they sell a tool for that which is installed in the inside and connects to the lower bout end pin and requires drilling holes at the bridge. What it does is “Jack” the top up to it’s natural condition- yes it works like a car Jack.


Couldn't you also ask for a photo with a metal straight edge laid lengthwise along the top. That would give you an indication of the arch top and daylight any sagging or top issues. To my eye the sides and back look like mahogany, stained and laquered.


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## Arn213 (May 19, 2021)

DLJeffs said:


> Couldn't you also ask for a photo with a metal straight edge laid lengthwise along the top. That would give you an indication of the arch top and daylight any sagging or top issues. To my eye the sides and back look like mahogany, stained and laquered.


Yes, you can, but not a lot of people (musicians or guitar vendors; not if they have a repair shop in house) have that handy and what you actually need is a notch one (to clear the fret wire) and that has to span from the fretboard halve towards to the bridge. That would not be convenient most of the time for most people to have that tool and you can get a read out just from sighting it with a photo- you will know if it is high or there is that dip at that area. Before you make any drastic repair- the truss rod is your friend to adjust the relief.

If for example I was buying a guitar with said condition- I would and walk away from the deal because the guitar did not have a stable and healthy life from not properly being humidified. Their headache becomes yours and sometimes the cost to fix it does not pay because the guitar value might be worth less. That is too much of a headache to resuscitate the guitar back to optimal playing conditions AND if it is highly collectible, the repair will cost you a pretty penny and greatly affect the resale value- thanks, but no thanks as there are plenty of guitars available for sale.

Oh and not everyone has a hydrometer *hygrometer (*revised and updated- good catch Cody @gman2431) is the problem. You own a couple of guitars, it would be smart to invest on one. There are interior cases with humidified control section and they do sell control humid paks, etc. to put inside your guitar case. Rule is if you are not playing your guitar- leave it in the case.

One of the greatest rule to myself is never ever buy a steel string guitar sight unseen. You have to be physical be there to diagnose any possible problems. An electric guitar you can get away with and it is more forgiving, but that is the reverse with the acoustic.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## omoz (May 19, 2021)

Agreed - it is hard to diagnose a guitar (especially an acoustic) just from photos. You need really great photos from all angles to identify cracks or damages/repairs, neck warping, bracing coming loose, fret condition, etc. Then there are things like intonation and hardware operation. Not that these things can not be fixed generally, but like @Arn213 says there is a cost and/or headache associated with it that most people would want to be aware of before making the deal. And of course the guitar might not be a good ergonomical fit, or sound like expected. Hopefully this one does not go in the return pile!

@DLJeffs Very interesting thought on mahogany, I would never even have considered that. Both mahogany and rosewood are obviously very common woods for guitar back & sides. Is there mahogany with such light color and wavy grain patterns?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Sincere 1


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## Arn213 (May 19, 2021)

omoz said:


> @DLJeffs Very interesting thought on mahogany, I would never even have considered that. Both mahogany and rosewood are obviously very common woods for guitar back & sides. Is there mahogany with such light color and wavy grain patterns?


I’ll wait for Doug to answer this one before I give you my take, but basically you already partially answered your question- Doug has a good eye and he spotted what it might be.


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## DLJeffs (May 19, 2021)

omoz said:


> Agreed - it is hard to diagnose a guitar (especially an acoustic) just from photos. You need really great photos from all angles to identify cracks or damages/repairs, neck warping, bracing coming loose, fret condition, etc. Then there are things like intonation and hardware operation. Not that these things can not be fixed generally, but like @Arn213 says there is a cost and/or headache associated with it that most people would want to be aware of before making the deal. And of course the guitar might not be a good ergonomical fit, or sound like expected. Hopefully this one does not go in the return pile!
> 
> @DLJeffs Very interesting thought on mahogany, I would never even have considered that. Both mahogany and rosewood are obviously very common woods for guitar back & sides. Is there mahogany with such light color and wavy grain patterns?


Oystein -
I am certainly no expert on wood ID. But I have seen mahogany in quite a wide range of color. The grain structure is usually pretty consistent in my experience. I was looking at your photo of the inside and that view of the side certainly looks just like the inside of the guitar I'm building and it has mahogany sides and back. According to the luthier who is helping me, mahogany was / is one of the most common woods for sides and backs.


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## omoz (May 20, 2021)

Very interesting! I have other instruments here with mahogany back & sides, and all of them have very straight patterns, but I am sure there are many variants of mahogany that I am not aware of. Not to mention flat sawn vs other sawing techniques that I am just now learning about on here.


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## Gonzalodqa (May 20, 2021)

You certainly can get lighter color mahogany but to be honest in my years working in the topics I have never seen "white" mahogany. 
You could check for storied rays in the wood, that is one of the characteristics of "genuine mahogany"

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Arn213 (May 20, 2021)

DLJeffs said:


> But I have seen mahogany in quite a wide range of color. The grain structure is usually pretty consistent in my experience. I was looking at your photo of the inside and that view of the side certainly looks just like the inside of the guitar I'm building and it has mahogany sides and back. According to the luthier who is helping me, mahogany was / is one of the most common woods for sides and backs.


That was my impression also when I saw the inside of the box where the label is that it has mahogany surface structure. Though I still believe that the interior face is a veneer and does not match the exterior grain formation of the guitar. Inside the box has “cathedral” grain and outside of it has more of a “wavy” grain. Then there are other peculiar things going on this guitar. Look closely at the photo of the guitar showing frontage profile but angled. Focus in the interior and you will see a “tone” contrast in the wood between the side wall and the interior back. See how “white” the back is and how “brown” the side wall is? That gives me the impression that the interior back is not mahogany because it is too white.





Yes, true mahogany is “one” of the most common woods used in guitar building. You can go back before the “Golden Age/Golden era”, before WWII and you will see a lot of back and side examples made by the company C.F. Martin Guitars. The two most popular and traditional guitar back and side wood is rosewood and mahogany.


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## Gonzalodqa (May 20, 2021)

@Arn213 how common is Spanish Cedar in old guitars? Spanish cedar can resemble mahogany in some aspects especially after dyeing and finishing
Just to clarify I do not think this is Spanish cedar either.


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## Arn213 (May 20, 2021)

I don’t think the back and sides are mahogany. Just look at the wear at the back side by the waist line where the burst has faded and flaked off- see how “white” the wood is? See photo of the op for reference. There is no genuine mahogany that is that white in color- yes, there are “white wannabe” mahogany like white limba (aka as korina and refer to as “super mahogany”) and primavera. These has the same surface structure and pores like genuine mahogany.





My tentative guess based on the furnished photo is the wood used for the back is “artic birch” or “Nordic birch”. Luthiers do use what is closely available to them and you see those “fine wispy, stringy lines” that runs vertically- those are present on maple and birch. Look up bear claw maple in this forum and you will see that element present.

Here is a photo of birch below. You can see how it has similar pores like mahogany.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Arn213 (May 20, 2021)

omoz said:


> Very interesting! I have other instruments here with mahogany back & sides, and all of them have very straight patterns, but I am sure there are many variants of mahogany that I am not aware of. Not to mention flat sawn vs other sawing techniques that I am just now learning about on here.


The straight pattern only means it was quartered or quarter sawn cut which will show the grain vertically and will usually give you a “ribbon striping” effect. You slab sawn the log and you get flat sawn grain. There are true mahoganies and there are the “wannabes”.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Arn213 (May 20, 2021)

Gonzalodqa said:


> @Arn213 how common is Spanish Cedar in old guitars? Spanish cedar can resemble mahogany in some aspects especially after dyeing and finishing
> Just to clarify I do not think this is Spanish cedar either.


Spanish cedar is common for guitar necks- but not as widely favored or popular compared to genuine mahogany/Honduran mahogany. It is used on classical guitars and steel string acoustic. The old school Spanish cedar is referred to as “Cedro”. You have to go back in the 1930’s as CF
Martin used Spanish cedar for their guitar production before they switched to Honduran mahogany. Probably one of the slight negative using Spanish cedar as a guitar neck is that is softer in nature and that you can easily make an indentation) compare to Honduran mahogany. I consider it as a low to medium density hardwood. Luthiers usually will choose the higher density Spanish cedar that will also give you that rigidity and stiffness on the neck due to it’s length.

Yes, genuine mahogany and Spanish cedar is very similar to each other- the guitar building world refer to them as “cousins”. They have identical surface structure and pore make up. They share the same aroma except that Spanish Cedar is much stronger and genuine mahogany has a very faint cedar aroma. They have very similar tap tone response- very resonant.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## omoz (May 20, 2021)

Great discussion, much appreciate the insights. Do we think it is possible that the back and sides are _not _of the same material for once? I.e. could the back be birch and the sides mahogany - ref. the color difference on the inside pic?


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## Arn213 (May 20, 2021)

omoz said:


> Great discussion, much appreciate the insights. Do we think it is possible that the back and sides are _not _of the same material for once? I.e. could the back be birch and the sides mahogany - ref. the color difference on the inside pic?


The back and sides are the same wood species. You have to reread my post about the interior. There is a possibility that the builder used a “toner” on the inside of the side wall making it darker in color compare to the whitish color of the interior back. There is also a possibility that he laminated the side walls.


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## omoz (May 20, 2021)

Gotcha. How does the wood color react to heat? Presumably the sides would be formed in a bending iron?


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## Arn213 (May 20, 2021)

omoz said:


> Presumably the sides would be formed in a bending iron?


“Exactamundo”!


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## phinds (May 20, 2021)

This has the classic look of tight grained quartersawn larch that I've seen on guitars before (but the color of this implies dye)


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## Arn213 (May 20, 2021)

phinds said:


> This has the classic look of tight grained quartersawn larch that I've seen on guitars before (but the color of this implies dye)
> View attachment 209217


That is a sunburst application Paul. The yellow is applied first and then a coat of clear is applied then the red-orange at the perimeter is sprayed to get that burst effect and then several thin coats of clear applied to protect the finish.

The sound board material if this was made in the 1960’s was either Adirondack spruce or Sitka spruce- but the builder being in Norway, he probably used the spruce available to him, which is typically European spruce (usually front the Alps
- could be German, Italian, etc.).

Reactions: Informative 1


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## omoz (May 20, 2021)

The builder was known for using local Norwegian spruce for the top and bracing, but apparently also substituted Austrian spruce, so I would expect this to be one of those.


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## Arn213 (May 20, 2021)

omoz said:


> The builder was known for using local Norwegian spruce for the top and bracing, but apparently also substituted Austrian spruce, so I would expect this to be one of those.


Yes- they are usually nowadays all lumped in generally as “European Spruce”.


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## phinds (May 20, 2021)

Arn, I'm finding your posts in this thread very informative. Thanks.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Arn213 (May 20, 2021)

phinds said:


> Arn, I'm finding your posts in this thread very informative. Thanks.


Thank you and glad I can share- the feeling is mutual and I feel the same way when you ID the woods for people. You are a great asset to this forum and you help a lot of us get deeper information. We are lucky to have you. A well deserve credit goes to Mark @Mr. Peet as well for his knowledge and for sharing the information with us.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thank You! 2 | Agree 1


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## gman2431 (May 21, 2021)

Arn213 said:


> Yes, you can, but not a lot of people (musicians or guitar vendors; not if they have a repair shop in house) have that handy and what you actually need is a notch one (to clear the fret wire) and that has to span from the fretboard halve towards to the bridge. That would not be convenient most of the time for most people to have that tool and you can get a read out just from sighting it with a photo- you will know if it is high or there is that dip at that area. Before you make any drastic repair- the truss rod is your friend to adjust the relief.
> 
> If for example I was buying a guitar with said condition- I would and walk away from the deal because the guitar did not have a stable and healthy life from not properly being humidified. Their headache becomes yours and sometimes the cost to fix it does not pay because the guitar value might be worth less. That is too much of a headache to resuscitate the guitar back to optimal playing conditions AND if it is highly collectible, the repair will cost you a pretty penny and greatly affect the resale value- thanks, but no thanks as there are plenty of guitars available for sale.
> 
> ...


Very informative as usual! I will say tho, you meant hygrometer instead of hydrometer, unless you are making some wine in the guitar room. Not nit picking! Just stating that since I know alot of people like to read this info!

Reactions: Funny 3


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## phinds (May 21, 2021)

gman2431 said:


> Very informative as usual! I will say tho, you meant hygrometer instead of hydrometer, unless you are making some wine in the guitar room. Not nit picking! Just stating that since I know alot of people like to read this info!


Hey, nitpicking on this forum is MY job. I may have to speak to the union about you

Reactions: Funny 4 | Sincere 1


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## gman2431 (May 21, 2021)

phinds said:


> Hey, nitpicking on this forum is MY job. I may have to speak to the union about you


I had to sneak one in on ya.... I won't let it happen again

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Arn213 (May 21, 2021)

gman2431 said:


> Very informative as usual! I will say tho, you meant hygrometer instead of hydrometer, unless you are making some wine in the guitar room. Not nit picking! Just stating that since I know alot of people like to read this info!


Damn you Cody! No seriously, that was a good catch. I was firing away that day to respond to the questions on this thread. My bad, but I updated it and you get credit smart pants! Lol. You at least left me off easy........Paul would have not! Hey, how about wine making in the guitar room? Sounds like a good niche. Lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## phinds (May 21, 2021)

Arn213 said:


> Damn you Cody! No seriously, that was a good catch. I was firing away that day to respond to the questions on this thread. My bad, but I updated it and you get credit smart pants! Lol. You at least left me off easy........Paul would have not! Hey, how about wine making in the guitar room? Sounds like a good niche. Lol.


Nah, I would have figured it was just a case on on-line typing with auto-correct being your worst enema.

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Gonzalodqa (May 21, 2021)




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## omoz (May 25, 2021)

The guitar has arrived (finally) and I was able to take some pics. Probably not the best, but maybe they'll help a bit.

_Guitarist sidenote: I am very happy with it from a player's perspective. There is some top sag making the action high for the top frets, as suspected, but intonation is good, and playability overall is great for the low price I paid. It resonates a lot, but seemingly with a focus on the low mid-frequencies, so I will indeed try it out with high-strung tuning which should be a good fit._

As far as the wood goes: The inside of the back looks like the same wood species as the outside to me, but I am not sure if the patterns match. I found it a little hard to tell, partially due to the laquer and the aging/checking of the laquer on the outside, and partially due to being too busy playing the thing...

There is indeed a noticable color difference between the back and the sides on the inside, as discussed.


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## Arn213 (May 25, 2021)

Well, at least it got to you in a one piece because there is always that chance from shipping that the guitar suffers some kind of altercation.

It is difficult to tell if the back grain from the exterior is the same as the interior- only you can determine that if it was a solid piece and not a veneer........well pull out the back pin and look at the core section and see if there are laminations.

I still going to stick to my original assessment that it is birch back and sides- color and pores is a give away. What I don’t like is someone recently mess with the sidewalls and you can see how sloppy the brushwork is and spots were there are miss coatings. It probably is shellac is that what they insides are usually finished if they are brave and don’t care about how difficult it is to make a repair with a clear coat. The clear on the sides is why there is a tonal difference between the back and side wood interior. The fretboard is Brazilian rose- but some one oiled it (or waxed it, but you will see residue if that was the case)- not good if the oil was soaked and it looks like that because the fretboard looks wet and glossy. You don’t want to leave the oil to long and left it soak into the slot and the fretwire, with the oil to get in the fretwire tang and slot because it will lift it off it’s “seat”. It could have been oiled and buffed, then waxed and buffed.

I suspected that the action was going to be high based on the photo and the possible sag on the soundboard is kind of a given for vintage acoustics. Well, that doesn’t matter as long as you feel the guitar is playable and that it sounds good to you. Doesn’t really matter what we think- you are the one that will live with it.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Sincere 1


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## omoz (May 26, 2021)

Thanks for the reply, and for all the attention you have given this thread @Arn213!

The strap button seems to not be the screwed-in type so not sure if I want to mess with it in case it is glued.. I don't have the tools or experience to deal with that - unless you have some pointers?

Someone indeed did oil the fretboard - that someone being me right before taking the pics.. It didn't seem to need much, judging by how it reacted to the oil, so no wonder if it looks a bit glossy in the pics. I apply conservatively with a rag and wipe off after, though. I have never heard of avoiding oil in/around the fret slots, but that makes perfect sense when you say it.

The playability is obviously compromised, but above expectations - given the < $200 I paid (including case & shipping). And it definitely has a sound to it, which is the most important as a player. That being said, it would be an interesting project to try to get it to a perfect setup sometime.


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## Arn213 (May 27, 2021)

omoz said:


> Thanks for the reply, and for all the attention you have given this thread @Arn213!
> 
> The strap button seems to not be the screwed-in type so not sure if I want to mess with it in case it is glued.. I don't have the tools or experience to deal with that - unless you have some pointers?
> 
> ...


Glad to be of help and thank you for posting this as it is not that often I see builds that comes out of Europe (vintage). Great to also see a guitarist who is passionate about what goes on into a guitar construction and appears to me that you might be interested into luthierie. Hopefully you will stick around here because there are a lot of members who brings wealth of knowledge, experience and artistry in their craft- some are mind blowing to me because they have an impressive resume as they have many skills that allows them to do all sorts of different types of builds. If you want to get your feet wet, it would be ideal to learn from a luthier that caters to repairs, maintenance and tech work. 

Now back to your guitar- $ 200 is one heck of a deal that includes a case and shipping! That price today is what you would pay just for the hard case and the shipping! So you basically got the guitar for free! Where do you get a custom guitar made in Europe for that price? 

The strap buttons usually are secured in three ways- with a center screw into the slot or pressure fit when turned counter clockwise will come out or it is glued. If there is no give, I would leave it alone because the pressure can cause the sidewalls to crack. Looked at the inside grain pattern at the sound hole and the waist line inside corner- appears that the grain pattern lines up with what is going on with the grain direction at the exterior.

The fretwires are installed 2 ways- pressure fitted or with adhesives (modern application basic woodworking wood glue is used). You can get the fretwire tang to lift/get unseated by using a soldering iron by heating the top width wise when a referral job is called for. You definitely do not want the oil to soak into the fretwire slot based on what I mentioned above especially if it is only pressure fitted. It can cause problems because the oil will leach into the slots and will cause the frets to get unseated. Rosewoods are oily to begin with and with the exchange on the oils at your fingers- it doesn’t really require that type of maintenance. What I do is apply a guitar conditioner in the fretboard once a year- I don’t apply it directly to the fretboard. I take a rag and put the conditioner there, then wipe on the surface. Then wait slightly and use a dry rag to wipe on the excess and buff. Before any of that “condition” process takes place- get a medium bristle toothbrush and clean the fretboard (removes and dead skin and gunk). The use naphtha to get general cleaning. I don’t soak the board and I use a rag with naphtha and wipe away. Let it completely dry before you condition the fretboard.

Did you sight the neck to see if it is straight? Did you check to see if the truss rod is working?

Well enjoy the guitar and play it in good health!

Arn


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## omoz (May 27, 2021)

Arn213 said:


> Glad to be of help and thank you for posting this as it is not that often I see builds that comes out of Europe (vintage). Great to also see a guitarist who is passionate about what goes on into a guitar construction and appears to me that you might be interested into luthierie. Hopefully you will stick around here because there are a lot of members who brings wealth of knowledge, experience and artistry in their craft- some are mind blowing to me because they have an impressive resume as they have many skills that allows them to do all sorts of different types of builds. If you want to get your feet wet, it would be ideal to learn from a luthier that caters to repairs, maintenance and tech work.


Thanks, and yes, interested in luthiering - and also interested in learning more about what goes into it which helps when buying instruments used, especially vintage ones. This forum seems like a great resource & community!



Arn213 said:


> Now back to your guitar- $ 200 is one heck of a deal that includes a case and shipping! That price today is what you would pay just for the hard case and the shipping! So you basically got the guitar for free! Where do you get a custom guitar made in Europe for that price?


Yes, pretty happy with the deal - found it on the used market here (in Norway). Older guitars that are not of a well-known brand don't go for high prices here, even if they are handmade. Sometimes you can get lucky, but sometimes the instruments at that price are unplayable and need repair. Some people just hang these on their wall for 20 years because they look pretty, and those I try to avoid..



Arn213 said:


> The strap buttons usually are secured in three ways- with a center screw into the slot or pressure fit when turned counter clockwise will come out or it is glued. If there is no give, I would leave it alone because the pressure can cause the sidewalls to crack. Looked at the inside grain pattern at the sound hole and the waist line inside corner- appears that the grain pattern lines up with what is going on with the grain direction at the exterior.


I see, I might try gently twisting it and see, but otherwise leave it alone then.



Arn213 said:


> The fretwires are installed 2 ways- pressure fitted or with adhesives (modern application basic woodworking wood glue is used). You can get the fretwire tang to lift/get unseated by using a soldering iron by heating the top width wise when a referral job is called for. You definitely do not want the oil to soak into the fretwire slot based on what I mentioned above especially if it is only pressure fitted. It can cause problems because the oil will leach into the slots and will cause the frets to get unseated. Rosewoods are oily to begin with and with the exchange on the oils at your fingers- it doesn’t really require that type of maintenance. What I do is apply a guitar conditioner in the fretboard once a year- I don’t apply it directly to the fretboard. I take a rag and put the conditioner there, then wipe on the surface. Then wait slightly and use a dry rag to wipe on the excess and buff. Before any of that “condition” process takes place- get a medium bristle toothbrush and clean the fretboard (removes and dead skin and gunk). The use naphtha to get general cleaning. I don’t soak the board and I use a rag with naphtha and wipe away. Let it completely dry before you condition the fretboard.


Great info, much appreciated!



Arn213 said:


> Did you sight the neck to see if it is straight? Did you check to see if the truss rod is working?


Neck is not warped, but has a slightly exaggerated bend that I would normally correct with a bit of truss-rod tightening, but there does not appear to be a truss rod. It's not critical for playability, so doesn't really warrant the work of attempting to correct, but I won't string it up with high tension strings/tunings.



Arn213 said:


> Well enjoy the guitar and play it in good health!


Many thanks!


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