# pallet wood nice contrast id help please



## vegas urban lumber (Sep 24, 2019)

i have included the pallet id stamp images, wood is somewhat soft, end grain shot is not the best i know but maybe it will help

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## vegas urban lumber (Sep 24, 2019)

@phinds @Mr. Peet


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## vegas urban lumber (Sep 24, 2019)

pallet appears to have originated in Vietnam

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## phinds (Sep 24, 2019)

End grain pics are not even close to a total loss but I could definitely use a lot more detail. Any chance you can get one of them cleaned up quite a bit?

Mark is better than I am on figuring these things out from such relatively incomplete information.

What's the density?


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## vegas urban lumber (Sep 24, 2019)

feels light like pine roughly, maybe these will help


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## Mr. Peet (Sep 24, 2019)

Hey Trev,

I was thinking Chinese tulip, _Lirodendron chinense_, but those close ups, not sure....


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## vegas urban lumber (Sep 24, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> Hey Trev,
> 
> I was thinking Chinese tulip, _Lirodendron chinense_, but those close ups, not sure....


can i send you a piece?


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## phinds (Sep 24, 2019)

Better to send it to me. I'm the one that does the end grain processing for both Mark and myself. I'll PM you my address.

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## vegas urban lumber (Sep 24, 2019)

ok thx

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## phinds (Sep 28, 2019)

Trev, I got the pieces. I've done the preliminary processing but since that doesn't include the fine sanding of the end grain, I haven't attempted any ID so far. My first thought was that the softwood looks like one of those larch-pine-fir pieces that's impossible to ID even down to a genus, BUT ... it doesn't seem to have any resin canals (won't be 100% sure 'til I've done the fine sanding) so that would be impossible. My next off-the-cuff guess was larch, but that ALSO has resin canals which rules it out. I'm going to stop guessing and wait 'til I get the end grain processing done. 

The pallet wood is, unfortunately, diffuse porous which is the most common type, so the ID may be difficult but I do note that it has a distinctively triangular pith. That doesn't mean anything to me right now but it might to Mark Peet and it gives me another point to research.

I'll post pics after I've done the final processing.


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## vegas urban lumber (Sep 29, 2019)

phinds said:


> Trev, I got the pieces. I've done the preliminary processing but since that doesn't include the fine sanding of the end grain, I haven't attempted any ID so far. My first thought was that the softwood looks like one of those larch-pine-fir pieces that's impossible to ID even down to a genus, BUT ... it doesn't seem to have any resin canals (won't be 100% sure 'til I've done the fine sanding) so that would be impossible. My next off-the-cuff guess was larch, but that ALSO has resin canals which rules it out. I'm going to stop guessing and wait 'til I get the end grain processing done.
> 
> The pallet wood is, unfortunately, diffuse porous which is the most common type, so the ID may be difficult but I do note that it has a distinctively triangular pith. That doesn't mean anything to me right now but it might to Mark Peet and it gives me another point to research.
> 
> I'll post pics after I've done the final processing.


cool thx


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## rob3232 (Sep 29, 2019)

I had a pallet that originated from Vietnam some time ago, can’t find it right now but the wood looked similar. From the research I did I thought it was Acacia. (Acacia Mangium or A. Auriculiformis. Or some of many hybrids) seems there are many plantations that grow it.
Not sure if this will help ? 

Rob

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## vegas urban lumber (Sep 29, 2019)

this wood is quite a bit softer than acacia, has that nice contrast though. based on the small size appears to be plantation grown as you commented


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## phinds (Sep 29, 2019)

vegas urban lumber said:


> this wood is quite a bit softer than acacia ...


"Acacia" encompass about 200 different common wood names spread across 400 species so don't be too quick to judge "acacia" in such a general way.


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## vegas urban lumber (Sep 30, 2019)

phinds said:


> "Acacia" encompass about 200 different common wood names spread across 400 species so don't be too quick to judge "acacia" in such a general way.


sorry our acacias here are only very hard wood, but obviously i have a limited scope of knowledge and exposure.

side note on the "fir" one there doesn't appear to be any difference or notable "heartwood" vs new growth. it is whitish yellow all the way to the center

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## vegas urban lumber (Oct 3, 2019)

some pictures that might add to the possible id, under the bark is a stringy layer similar to that on cedar, and a broken qrtr section showing ray flecks and some up close of the little bits of bark i was able to locate,


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## Mr. Peet (Oct 3, 2019)

Seeing the new pictures, wonder if the Asiatic balsam group of the Populus genus might have rank...?..


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## phinds (Oct 14, 2019)

Trev, I got the end grain processing done yesterday and since then I've twice poked around my anatomy pages looking for anything close and I've come up dry. Here are some end grain shots --- my standard 1/4" x 1/4". The pores are more distinct in the one dark heartwood area, probably because that area is harder than the lighter softwood areas.



 

 

 

 



And here's the triangular pith. I've not made a study of pith shapes and have little information on that. @Mr. Peet might be able to tell something from this. This is a 1/2" x 1/2" area


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## Mr. Peet (Oct 14, 2019)

phinds said:


> Trev, I got the end grain processing done yesterday and since then I've twice poked around my anatomy pages looking for anything close and I've come up dry. Here are some end grain shots --- my standard 1/4" x 1/4". The pores are more distinct in the one dark heartwood area, probably because that area is harder than the lighter softwood areas.
> 
> View attachment 172939 View attachment 172940 View attachment 172941 View attachment 172942 View attachment 172943
> 
> ...



I believe the pith for _Lirodendron_ is chambered (little open pockets like a ladder when bisected). Star sharped are common in the _Populus_ genus, I'm leaning more that direction... Remind me of the density / weight ratio.


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## phinds (Oct 14, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> I believe the pith for _Lirodendron_ is chambered (little open pockets like a ladder when bisected). Star sharped are common in the _Populus_ genus, I'm leaning more that direction... Remind me of the density / weight ratio.


For the density I get about 27lbs/cuft

Doesn't look anything like Populus to me. No distinct growth ring boundaries, pore density way too low, etc.


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## Mr. Peet (Oct 14, 2019)

@phinds 

That's a few pounds lighter than the Lirodendron group and spot on for several Populus. What is your thought on them?


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## phinds (Oct 14, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> @phinds
> 
> That's a few pounds lighter than the Lirodendron group and spot on for several Populus. What is your thought on them?


See my previous post


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## Mr. Peet (Oct 14, 2019)

phinds said:


> See my previous post



Funny, must not have scrolled all the way down..._Populus simonii_ and _P. yunnanensis_ have faint growth rings, while _P. lasiocarpa_ is more similar to those we see in the north east as for growth rings...They are the only Chinese 'populus' I have had some exposure to.

Back to the drawing board...


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## vegas urban lumber (Dec 18, 2019)

???? any further thoughts here fells @Mr. Peet @phinds


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## Mr. Peet (Dec 18, 2019)

vegas urban lumber said:


> ???? any further thoughts here fells @Mr. Peet @phinds



Trev,

I have not had the time needed to look into much. Paul gave me two pieces last month. The heartwood has good reaction under blacklight, the sapwood does not. If it was a chemical treatment, both would react. So, now just need to look thought the 300 reactive woods from that part of the world (thus my slow action). Sorry for the inconvenience.


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## phinds (Dec 18, 2019)

I still got nuttin


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## vegas urban lumber (Dec 18, 2019)

thx guys i appreciate your help


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## phinds (Dec 24, 2019)

Trev (@vegas urban lumber) I took another look at the softwood pieces you sent and they appear to be spruce, but that's a pretty weak guess, based on this:

They DO have resin canals. They are so small and infrequent that I missed them the first time.
They have to be spruce, pine, or Douglas fir because they have very small resin canals (the resin canals in all pines are larger)
The latewood seems too thin for larch
For Douglas fir, the color is very unlikely and the fir almost always has thicker latewood.
Spruce seems to be a good match on color and latewood size.
SO ... probably spruce of some kind but I wouldn't go so far as to bet money on it.


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## vegas urban lumber (Dec 24, 2019)

that's the larger blocks from sweden/switzerland?


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## phinds (Dec 24, 2019)

vegas urban lumber said:


> that's the larger blocks from sweden/switzerland?


Here are the pics of the two pieces I'm talking about


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## vegas urban lumber (Dec 24, 2019)

phinds said:


> Here are the pics of the two pieces I'm talking about
> 
> View attachment 176174
> 
> View attachment 176175


yes, thx
any word on the other higher contrast one from vietnam with the triangular pith


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## vegas urban lumber (Dec 24, 2019)

phinds said:


> Here are the pics of the two pieces I'm talking about
> 
> View attachment 176174
> 
> View attachment 176175


here's some furniture i built from those 8"x 8" timbers that were originally 12 ft long

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## phinds (Dec 24, 2019)

vegas urban lumber said:


> yes, thx
> any word on the other higher contrast one from vietnam with the triangular pith


No, I don't expect to get any further on those pallet wood pieces, nor does Mark.


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## vegas urban lumber (Dec 24, 2019)

phinds said:


> No, I don't expect to get any further on those pallet wood pieces, nor does Mark.


ok thx for your help


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## vegas urban lumber (Jan 12, 2020)

i bought a table top, damaged amazon return the other day from my local amazon returns auction house https://www.nellisauction.com/ Box says it was made in vietnem, quoting it as being acacia wood. it looks exactly like the pallet wood, right down to the triangular pith. in searching google for Vietnam acacia wood i found this site, naming it as a super fast growing hybrid in Vietnam used in a lot of their furniture export, paper and pallet products.

https://www.thinhphufurniture.com/acacia-wood-used-for-furniture/
*
2. Which ACACIA species we are using?*
The Acacia hybrid, a cross between Acacia Mangium and Acacia Auriculiformis, grows in Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, and China. The Acacia hybrid is a medium-sized tree that looks similar to A. mangium. In 2 years, the tree can reach 8 to 10 m and 7.5 to 9.0 cm d.b.h. The species grows on sandy loam or sandy clay loam soils; however, it also thrives on lateritic crude soils.

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## Mr. Peet (Jan 12, 2020)

vegas urban lumber said:


> i bought a table top, damaged amazon return the other day from my local amazon returns auction house https://www.nellisauction.com/ Box says it was made in vietnem, quoting it as being acacia wood. it looks exactly like the pallet wood, right down to the triangular pith. in searching google for Vietnam acacia wood i found this site, naming it as a super fast growing hybrid in Vietnam used in a lot of their furniture export, paper and pallet products.
> 
> https://www.thinhphufurniture.com/acacia-wood-used-for-furniture/
> *
> ...



Hybrids are an interesting subject. What I find really interesting is density. _Acacia mangium_ (Big leaf acacia) is commonly sold as flooring. It is a hard, dense wood like sugar maple. It is dark brown but can have green colored hues. _Acacia auriculiformis_ (Earleaf acacia) is a very fast grower and short lived. Trees are often harvested between 10 and 15 years in age. The dark brown wood is hard and dense (like sugar maple). Your wood was far lighter in weight and less dense. But as said, hybrids can be interesting.


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## phinds (Jan 12, 2020)

Thanks for the update. I think you have a winner. Here are high magnification end grain pics of Acacia Mangium from the NCSU site and one I took of the pallet wood.

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## rob3232 (Jan 12, 2020)

Thanks  post #12


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## phinds (Jan 12, 2020)

rob3232 said:


> Thanks  post #12


Indeed, you nailed it.

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## phinds (Feb 29, 2020)

UPDATE:

@vegas urban lumber --- Well, I'm no longer convinced that it's Acacia mangium, even though the end grain is an excellent match. The problem is that except for The Wood Database, which is completely at odds with other reports, Acacia mangium is a very hard, heavy wood used for heavy construction and flooring and it will take a mirror finish. This wood is under 30lbs/cuft which just can't be called "heavy" and I'm confident it would not stand up to use as flooring. Also, it won't take a mirror finish.

I'll ask Eric where he gets his "32 lbs/cuft" for Acacia mangium, since that's at odds with all other reporting that I have found.

SO ... I'm back to being flummoxed.


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 1, 2020)

phinds said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> @vegas urban lumber --- Well, I'm no longer convinced that it's Acacia mangium, even though the end grain is an excellent match. The problem is that except for The Wood Database, which is completely at odds with other reports, Acacia mangium is a very hard, heavy wood used for heavy construction and flooring and it will take a mirror finish. This wood is under 30lbs/cuft which just can't be called "heavy" and I'm confident it would not stand up to use as flooring. Also, it won't take a mirror finish.
> 
> ...



Just one wrench to bind the gears, based on the post #35, they are going with it being a hybrid. Reading through the two links I found conflict as well. Both parent woods are hard and dense, yet the hybrid is not. Makes one wonder...

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## phinds (Mar 1, 2020)

Eric responded w/ a data sheet that completely supports this mystery wood being Acacia mangium, does not mention anything about a hybrid, and says that current commercial wood of this species is plantation grown. I need to further explore the sites that say hard, heavy, dense, used for flooring, takes a mirror finish.


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## vegas urban lumber (Mar 1, 2020)

wow this is like a crime novel

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## phinds (Mar 1, 2020)

vegas urban lumber said:


> wow this is like a crime novel


Yeah, wood id does sometimes seem that way but this one is a bit more puzzling than most. I really thought we had it, and that might still be true.


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 1, 2020)

phinds said:


> Eric responded w/ a data sheet that completely supports this mystery wood being Acacia mangium, does not mention anything about a hybrid, and says that current commercial wood of this species is plantation grown. I need to further explore the sites that say hard, heavy, dense, used for flooring, takes a mirror finish.



Yes, Eric did. I was referring to the links Trev posted Jan. 12, 2019, post #35 that covered the hybrid.


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## phinds (Mar 31, 2020)

Mr. Peet said:


> Yes, Eric did. I was referring to the links Trev posted Jan. 12, 2019, post #35 that covered the hybrid.


Right, Mark. I missed that. In checking it out I see that it DOES explain how both parents can be dense, hard wood and yet the hybrid isn't. It says


> The Acacia hybrid trees grow very fast, Stem volume of acacia hybrids is 2-3 times greater than that of Acacia Mangium and 3-4 times greater than that of Acacia Auriculiformis of the same age. To get the timber for furniture production, it will take around 7 years from the day we seed.



SO ... given that explanation, I'm now comfortable with saying that this is the hybrid of Acacia mangium and Acacia Auriculiformis, The end grain fits very well with both of them and it was only the weight that was bothering me.

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## vegas urban lumber (Mar 31, 2020)

i got a table top the other day made in vietnam, same wood, excellent glossy finish, description was acacia wood


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## phinds (Mar 31, 2020)

vegas urban lumber said:


> i got a table top the other day made in vietnam, same wood, excellent glossy finish, description was acacia wood


But was the "glossy finish" because the wood is dense and takes a high natural polish or because it has a finishing agent on it that creates the gloss?


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## vegas urban lumber (Mar 31, 2020)

phinds said:


> But was the "glossy finish" because the wood is dense and takes a high natural polish or because it has a finishing agent on it that creates the gloss?


it took a nice finish probably due to the finishing agents, the wood is not particularly dense of hard, all characteristics are exactly like the original pallet wood sample

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## phinds (Apr 21, 2020)

@vegas urban lumber things have gotten complicated again. Eric Meier (The Wood Database) just sent me an article about the hybrid that seems to be conclusive that the hybrid is MORE dense than its parents, not less, even though it is faster growing. @Mr. Peet you might be interested in this as well. I'll email you the PDF. It's too large for the forum to allow its upload.

A statement early in the document is


> Acacia × mangiiformis has morphological and other characteristics that are intermediate between its parents. Furthermore, it often has a faster growth rate, superior bole form and is more drought-tolerant than its parent species.
> 
> The hybrid is used primarily for pulp production but also has uses as solid wood products and fuelwood. The wood is similar to that of A. mangium but has a higher density and is more suitable for products where strength is important; it is also less susceptible to termite attack than are its parent species. Ten high-performing commercial clones of Acacia × mangiiformis have been developed in Vietnam and more are being selected.



This does leave open the possibility that one of those "clones" in Vietnam is much less dense but it seems unlikely. I'm back to being flummoxed.


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## Mr. Peet (Apr 21, 2020)

phinds said:


> @vegas urban lumber things have gotten complicated again. Eric Meier (The Wood Database) just sent me an article about the hybrid that seems to be conclusive that the hybrid is MORE dense than its parents, not less, even though it is faster growing. @Mr. Peet you might be interested in this as well. I'll email you the PDF. It's too large for the forum to allow its upload.
> 
> A statement early in the document is
> 
> This does leave open the possibility that one of those "clones" in Vietnam is much less dense but it seems unlikely. I'm back to being flummoxed.



Thanks Paul,

I did read the article you sent via e-mail. The information on the wood is very sparse with a focus on form and outer appearances. There is nearly 50 recorded years of hybridization with these 2 species. There are many forms and more clones are be registered each year. Without having the stats on them, it is hard to say. Again, knowing plant genetic histories of hybridization, lighter density wood is possible, as is the case with several hybrid willow and aspen lines. 

I'd comfortably say it is for sure acacia, as for species, leave the door open....

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## phinds (Apr 21, 2020)

Mr. Peet said:


> Thanks Paul,
> I'd comfortably say it is for sure acacia, as for species, leave the door open....


Yeah, I think that's the best we can do.

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