# Lung Protection



## SENC (Sep 8, 2014)

Ok, so I've been reading Bill Pentz and have gotten myself scared of my inadequate lung protection. I use a small, portable 1.5hp dust collector for the big stuff and (most of the time) wear my trendpro airshield. After reading his site, it seems all I'm doing with my dust collector is pumping the really harmful fine dust right back into my shop... that I'm not wearing my breathing protection enough... and that I likely need to move to something like the 3m 7000 series with the appropriate filters.

I plan to add a good exhaust fan to do more to vent fine dust out of the shop, but curious what all of you do. I really don't have the space nor budget right now for one of his recommended cyclones, but a better mask and filter seems worth the price. For those of you that take this stuff really seriously, what masks, filters, cartridges do you recommend? For those who think Bill is full of it, please share you thoughts, too.

Thanks!

Reactions: Great Post 1


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## APBcustoms (Sep 8, 2014)

My dad owns an industrial hygiene company so I use mask with two replaceable filters from him and I have a fine particle collecter and I also use a dust collecter and blow dust out my shop door with a fan I'm a dust freak after getting sick the 5th or 6th time from rosewood

Reactions: Agree 1


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## NYWoodturner (Sep 9, 2014)

Admittedly I was not serious enough with woodturning. I would use the dust collector as you mentioned, and would have a stand fan behind me blowing dust and debris away from me. Now that I am into knife making and seeing all the steel dust that lands everywhere in my shop I am dead serious about lung protection. I use the 3M dual filter respirator that has 2 pink cartridges on either side. It works very well. I have found it super effective when working with CA too, which I have become super sensitized to. If I stabilize for you I sand and clean up your blanks before I send them back. I use the respirator for that very comfortably. Without it I can't stand to be in my shop for more than a minute. 
I've become pretty religious about it and find it highly effective. Especially given the low relative cost. 
I'll post pics tomorrow if anyone wants them.

Reactions: Like 2 | Thank You! 2


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## JR Custom Calls (Sep 9, 2014)

I bought my dust collector for this reason... then said the heck with using it with the lathe and only run it with the bandsaw right now..

Admittedly, I don't really take many breathing precautions. I make sure I don't inhale CA fumes when I put it on a paper towel... kind of feels like sticking your nose to a bottle of ammonia (yep, I did that). I do have a fan that blows from my left side to my right, it helps keep dust down, but I still blow my nose and have colored snot after turning several calls. You can almost tell what calls I've turned by the snot. Hedge and DIW make for an interesting sneeze. 

I used to not even wear safety glasses. I squinted, and said that as slow as my lathe was spinning, I'd have time to close my eyes if something came at them. Once I got my carbide tools and upped the speed, I started wearing them. Now I won't even turn the lathe on without having them on. A mask is uncomfortable for me, so I don't wear one. Hopefully, when I build my new workshop, I'll plumb in my dust collector so I can at least suck most of the sanding dust away from me.


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## DKMD (Sep 9, 2014)

I've got a Trend helmet, but I rarely wear it... I just can't seem to get comfortable with it on. I've got the clearvue cyclone, and it does a hell of a job... It's not as good as a helmet, but it's a lot more comfortable.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## SENC (Sep 9, 2014)

NYWoodturner said:


> Admittedly I was not serious enough with woodturning. I would use the dust collector as you mentioned, and would have a stand fan behind me blowing dust and debris away from me. Now that I am into knife making and seeing all the steel dust that lands everywhere in my shop I am dead serious about lung protection. I use the 3M dual filter respirator that has 2 pink cartridges on either side. It works very well. I have found it super effective when working with CA too, which I have become super sensitized to. If I stabilize for you I sand and clean up your blanks before I send them back. I use the respirator for that very comfortably. Without it I can't stand to be in my shop for more than a minute.
> I've become pretty religious about it and find it highly effective. Especially given the low relative cost.
> I'll post pics tomorrow if anyone wants them.



Pics and/or model #s would be much appreciated. I made the investment in my Trend AirPro because I do take this seriously, but after some further reading the last few days I'm questioning whether I've taken it seriously enough. After further digging yesterday and today, I've found some suggestions that it uses filters passing a similar standard as the 3m airstream system... but it is not OSHA/NIOSH approved. Whether that is a cost and/or liability thing vs a capability thing I don't know. I've liked the Trend because I've been more likely to wear it than I was the disposable masks, but I know it hasn't been all the time and I'm just questioning whether it is really filtering the littke crap.


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## SENC (Sep 9, 2014)

JR Custom Calls said:


> I bought my dust collector for this reason... then said the heck with using it with the lathe and only run it with the bandsaw right now..
> 
> Admittedly, I don't really take many breathing precautions. I make sure I don't inhale CA fumes when I put it on a paper towel... kind of feels like sticking your nose to a bottle of ammonia (yep, I did that). I do have a fan that blows from my left side to my right, it helps keep dust down, but I still blow my nose and have colored snot after turning several calls. You can almost tell what calls I've turned by the snot. Hedge and DIW make for an interesting sneeze.
> 
> I used to not even wear safety glasses. I squinted, and said that as slow as my lathe was spinning, I'd have time to close my eyes if something came at them. Once I got my carbide tools and upped the speed, I started wearing them. Now I won't even turn the lathe on without having them on. A mask is uncomfortable for me, so I don't wear one. Hopefully, when I build my new workshop, I'll plumb in my dust collector so I can at least suck most of the sanding dust away from me.



Thanks, Jonathan. Read the quicklinks pages on www.billpentz.com. Apparently wood dust nearly killed him so he went about studying the problem and developing a better dust collection system. Scary stuff.


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## NYWoodturner (Sep 12, 2014)

Henry - Sorry it took so long. This is the respirator I use for both applying CA and grind steel as well as any major power sanding I might do on the grinder.









I tried to get Hudson to model it for you (my 130 lb. Shepherd) but he wanted no part of it. He made it very clear it would no longer fit me if I put it on him.

I have a Trend Pro air shield and find this way more comfortable and just as effective. Therefore I use it a lot more.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thank You! 1 | Funny 1


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## SENC (Sep 12, 2014)

Thanks, Scott... how long are those filters lasting before replacement?


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## NYWoodturner (Sep 13, 2014)

Ive had these for at least 10 months now and these are still the original one. I have spares that I bought when I bought the mask but havemt felt a need to change them yet. I hit them with a blast from the air compressor before each use and they are still as good as new.


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## Sprung (Sep 13, 2014)

Scott, Thanks for the mini-review on that 3M respirator. I've been looking at that particular one, thinking about buying it, to replace the one I'm currently using. I'm just not happy with how my current one fits, plus it's only got one cartridge on it, which can restrict airflow for breathing just a little too much sometimes. Hearing a positive review from someone here who has used it for a while helps let me know it's a good respirator.

Now I just gotta figure out what size to order... Probably large, since I have an overly large head, but it would be helpful if they had some sizing info available...


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## Mike Mills (Sep 16, 2014)

These are the type I use and they are rated at 99.97% down to 0.3 microns. About the same price as the filters for the harder mask that use a cartridge. They (3M) says up to 160 hours I only sand a couple of hours a week so I toss it after about 60 hours (6 months). They do seal well if you .... scroll down to the fourth pic in the link. The elastic keeps its strength. I had considered the harder mask but was unsure of its use with safety glasses and a face shield.
Store face up in the open to allow any moisture collected from your breath to evaporate.

http://www.amazon.com/3M-Particulat..._indust_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0NVB9FZ4GREAJV66JK6Q

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## eaglea1 (Sep 16, 2014)

Just to add, in addition to my 2hp dust collector, fan, and downdraft table, I also make sure that I have
a fume exhaust running (my dust collector works good) for whenever I'm applying CA. It not only
affects the nose as Jonathan mentioned, but will do a number on your eyes as well. I did it only once
without the system running, and burned the heck out of both eyes. It took at least a week before they felt
normal again. The dust that I breathed back in the day before being aware of the dangers really bother
my lungs today. I wish I could go back and use the respirators etc.. all over again.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## TurnTex (Sep 16, 2014)

Saw dust is serious business, folks. My dad passed away 3 years ago at the ripe old age of 66 due to cancer. The only known cause for his kind of cancer is exposure to saw dust. He was a carpenter all his life. He was the epitome of good health too. Vegetarian, never smoke or drank a day in his life, and an avid cyclist who was riding 12,000 miles per year before he got sick. I would not wish what he went through on my worst enemy.

That said, if you are only relying on a mask when in your shop, you need to make sure you keep it on the entire time you are in there. I see it time and again where folks are religious about using a mask but as soon as they turn off their machine, they take the mask off. At that point, you have compromised yourself to the point you really are wasting your time with the mask to begin with! It is the super fine stuff that kills you, not the chips. The super fine stuff can stay suspended in the air for hours on end.

You would be much better off with a properly sized and designed dust collector with good filters. If the budget allows, I second David K's recommendation on a Clear Vue or other cyclone. Cyclone's maintain efficiency from empty to full. If the budget does not allow, then at least get a regular dust collector and upgrade the bags to a canister filter from Wynn Environmental. Remember, it is the small stuff that kills you. The standard bags on most collectors are 1 micron now days. That still allows the dangerous stuff through. A canister filter will filter down to .5 microns which is the best I have seen for any filters. Wynn has filters to adapt to most any DC out there. Here is more info from their site: http://wynnenv.com/woodworking-filters/

Sorry for jumping on my soapbox! I just really like all woodworkers and hate to see folks putting their health in jeopardy! I would hate to see any of you have to go through what my dad did. He made it 6 years. The treatment killed his sense of taste and smell, killed his right eye (they removed it), and made him almost deaf. He had no saliva glands left and had to use special stuff to keep his mouth moist. He would try to swallow food and get it caught in his throat, then cough it up, only to breath it back in, causing pneumonia. He was cancer free but ended up in the hospital 6 different times with pneumonia before the 7th time finally killed him!

Please, for you and your family's sake, take precautions and don't cheap out on the dust protection!!

I'll get off my soapbox now. Sorry about that! :)

Reactions: Like 1 | Thank You! 1 | Informative 1 | Sincere 2


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## David Hill (Sep 16, 2014)

Great topic, always a concern of mine.
For an air cleaner--get a squirrel cage from your AC repair guy and make a box for it. Made mine to take 20 x25 filters--amazing what it catches. I just suspended mine from the ceiling near my work area and have a pull chain to turn it off/on. I also have a dust/shaving collector (the big HF unit--it works just fine--when I turn it on) with a homemade cyclone on a big metal trash can.
If I'm turning sanding my "regular" woods I use my Trend & that catches most of the stuff. When using Black Walnut or other known noxious species I use a 3M type filter with my other facemask.


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## Patrude (Sep 19, 2014)

I mounted a couple of home size window fans to draw dust out of the shop. These are in two windows on one sid.e of the shop. I installed two small vents on the opposite side to provide better air exchange. I don't know how efficient it is but I can tell you there's plenty of dust on the hedges just outside those units


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## shadetree_1 (Nov 1, 2014)

I use the same one Scott does for my DIW cutting and sanding and it does work quite well, sometimes I get in a hurry to cut a piece and forget to put it on and with DIW I sure pay the piper with a stopped up nose and sneezing fits. They are reasonably priced and worth every penny of the cost and I also am still using the original filters after 9 months.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ELBeau (Nov 2, 2014)

What machines are you running? I have a clearvue cyclone and love it, but for anything with a 3" or smaller dust port Pentz recommends a "shop vac" style. The red-coded Craftsman vacuums can be retro-fitted with a Cleanstream HEPA filter by Gore for about $30. 
Capture the dust at the source rather than just wearing a mask. Uncaptured dust will settle all over the shop only to get blown around as you work on other projects. I have the clearvue, shop vac and an air filtration system hanging from the ceiling. I still wear on of the 3m 6000 models with the appropriate filter for the task at hand. 
I live in south Florida, so venting outside sucks out all my AC. If you can vent outside (even if only for part of the year), I'd recommend that.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ChrisK (Nov 15, 2014)

I actually work without any dust protection, aside my couple of 3M cartridge respirators (a 6000 series full face and a half face similar to Scott's one above) that I wear occasionnally and a Makita vacuum I only use with a circular saw.
As I mainly work with my lathe and Bandsaw I'm mainly aware of fine dust. After a lot of market research, I concluded the best setting for my needs is a vacuum dust extractor like the following ones:
http://www.axminster.co.uk/numatic-nvd750-workshop-vacuum-extractor
http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Hea...tion/CamVac_Extractors/camvac_extractors.html
http://www.yorkleen.co.uk/documents/products.php?action=item&iid=171&cat=3&page=1&subcat=Extractors

The only unknown is if every machine above will be able to match a small combination machine. I mainly use the circular saw and moulder while I don't feel any need for dust protection (maybe I'm wrong) when I occasionnally run the jointer/planer.

Now, one may ask why I disregard a chip/dust collector. Two reasons: small shop space and IMHO less efficiency for fine dust: 1 micron with an added filter cartridge v/s 0.5 micron for the vacuum machines above.
An example with the following chip/dust extractor: http://www.axminster.co.uk/jet-dc1100a-extractor-and-filter-cartridge-package-deal

As for Bill Pentz's Cyclone (if I only had the space), shipping and taxes make it a kind of a dream...


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## SENC (Nov 15, 2014)

Christos, none of those options are as good as wearing your mask. Just do it. 2nd, as long as weather and temps allow, exhaust your shop. My shop has never been cleaner and more dust free than this summer/fall when I religiously opened 2 doors and parked the biggest most powerful fan I could find in one door pulling air through and fine/superfine dust out of my shop to be scattered in the wind. If I was working or if I turned on my dust collector, I turned on that fan.

As for vacuums, I went through about all of the cheapos/store brands over the past 10 years before tiring of constant repkacements, lack of power, and loudness. I researched it heavily and talked to others and found that the Fein and Festool vacs (with HEPA) were considered in a totally different class than all others. But there was no way I was spending that much jack on a vac. Then I remembered I had been given a nice gift card I'd never used that would almost make up the difference between one and a high end shop-vac, so I decided to do something stupid and bought a festool. I was shocked to get it and realize it was actually worth the money. Power, quiet, filtration with HEPA, functionality, stability, footprint, etc. all heads and tails above any I'd had. I'm sure I would have been just as happy with the Fein. Whatever you do, I think HEPA is critical. Otherwise all you do with a shop vac is pick up the big stuff and stir up and recirculate the dust that actually hurts you.

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## JR Custom Calls (Nov 15, 2014)

So... just out of curiosity... how ineffective is a mask when you have a beard? I remember back in my vol FF days, we couldn't pass a fit test if we had much more than a mustache, which leads me to believe that a dust mask may be a false sense of security if it's not properly seated?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ChrisK (Nov 15, 2014)

Henry I already have a shop vac, that is a Makita one I use with my power tools (router, sander...) + on my circular saw (an old convertible Elu with a specific dust collection setup).
Now I want to upgrade for something bigger, mainly for sanding on my lathe, discsander...
One can find the vacuums above only in the UK. As for fine dust collection the 3 of them are rated at .05 microns (3stage filtration...).
Also, they are mainly 3HPs machines. The most powerful is the Yorkleen (3d link above) which is rated at 450 m3/h (or 265CFM). I know it's kind of limit (Bill Pentz states 500m3/h as a minimum) for chip collection. Hence I run the risk of this kind of vacuums cannot match my combination machines. Another drawback is their price... The most powerful and silent (Yorkleen) should cost me about $US1.380..

Anyway, I'm still not sure of this purchase and this is why I didn't already proceed.


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## SENC (Nov 15, 2014)

JR Custom Calls said:


> So... just out of curiosity... how ineffective is a mask when you have a beard? I remember back in my vol FF days, we couldn't pass a fit test if we had much more than a mustache, which leads me to believe that a dust mask may be a false sense of security if it's not properly seated?


Definitely has to seal properly. A full face mask may be better than a half face mask for you hairy buggers.


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## SENC (Nov 15, 2014)

ChrisK said:


> Henry I already have a shop vac, that is a Makita one I use with my power tools (router, sander...) + on my circular saw (an old convertible Elu with a specific dust collection setup).
> Now I want to upgrade for something bigger, mainly for sanding on my lathe, discsander...
> One can find the vacuums above only in the UK. As for fine dust collection the 3 of them are rated at .05 microns (3stage filtration...).
> Also, they are mainly 3HPs machines. The most powerful is the Yorkleen (3d link above) which is rated at 450 m3/h (or 265CFM). I know it's kind of limit (Bill Pentz states 500m3/h as a minimum) for chip collection. Hence I run the risk of this kind of vacuums cannot match my combination machines. Another drawback is their price... The most powerful and silent (Yorkleen) should cost me about $US1.380..
> ...



I misread... you're using them as a dust/chip collector at the tools. Makes sense, just make sure they filter well and efficiently... and still wear your mask! I can't comment on those having not seen/used them, but filtration looks good and they seem plenty powerful.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ChrisK (Nov 15, 2014)

JR Custom Calls said:


> So... just out of curiosity... how ineffective is a mask when you have a beard? I remember back in my vol FF days, we couldn't pass a fit test if we had much more than a mustache, which leads me to believe that a dust mask may be a false sense of security if it's not properly seated?


The mustache is no problem at all with the 3M masks.
I had some issues in wearing my spectacles with the full face respirator. And then came the redemption... The day a professional carver/turner friend of mine showed me the kind of glasses he was wearing, namely this kind of ski-goggles:


 

From this day on, I wear such (presbyopia adjusted) goggles all day long when I'm in my shop. As for the full face mask I wear the goggles on top of it.

PS: as a scuba diver, this mustache is a hell of.....*/+-+..?~


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## Kevin (Nov 15, 2014)

I've had this one for 6 or 7 years and it's fool proof. You get zero particles because it uses positive air pressure in a sealed environment. It has 2 speeds and battery life is great. The only problem is that I don't wear it all the time as I should.


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## Sprung (Feb 6, 2015)

NYWoodturner said:


> Henry - Sorry it took so long. This is the respirator I use for both applying CA and grind steel as well as any major power sanding I might do on the grinder.
> 
> View attachment 59564
> 
> ...



Scott - I wanted to bring this post back up to say thank you for this recommendation. About a month ago I purchased one of these. I wasn't happy with the respirator I had - it never fit well and with a single filter, I just couldn't get a good, deep breath through it, so I didn't wear it as often as I should - generally only wore it when sanding.

After using this new one, it fits my large face/head very well (I ordered the Large size), is fairly comfortable to wear, seals well on my face, and I can actually breathe through it. I'm now using it whenever I'm in the shop - which is making my lungs very happy.

Reactions: Like 2


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