# End grain tear out is driving me crazy



## Schroedc (Apr 5, 2014)

So I'm working on some bowls out of some nice FBE and I'm getting all kinds of tear out on the end grain sides. Tools are sharp, bearings are good, I don't have this problem with other stuff. Any suggestions to minimize this as I turn? I'd rather not have to resort to the 60 grit gouge especially on the inside.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## TimR (Apr 5, 2014)

Sometimes, even after the sharpest of tools approach, some end grain can be persistent with tearout issues. I've had pretty good luck using some shellac to stabilize the fibers before a final light cut.

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 2 | Informative 1


----------



## SDB777 (Apr 5, 2014)

I hate it when this happens.....I just take a step back and do some super light cuts towards the end, and I have resorted to the 80grit for them few that don't play nice!



Scott (remember....we want photos) B

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Kevin (Apr 5, 2014)

Schroedc said:


> So I'm working on some bowls out of some nice FBE and I'm getting all kinds of tear out on the end grain sides. Tools are sharp, bearings are good, I don't have this problem with other stuff. Any suggestions to minimize this as I turn? I'd rather not have to resort to the 60 grit gouge especially on the inside.
> 
> Thanks in advance!



FBE does have a certain degree of tear out. FBE is kind of like women; they have their issues but they are worth it when they really shine. Stick with her (the bowl).

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## NYWoodturner (Apr 5, 2014)

Colin - Use the lowest angle chisel you have - like a detail gouge. Razor sharp. The Shellac treatment works. Mix it ably 60/40 for FBE. If you don't have flakes to mix your own and just need enough to do this piece send me a message. There are many other treatments that will work as well. You just need something to stiffen those fibers while you make a final Razor sharp and razor thin cut. Just makes sure is doesn't conflict with your final finish.

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


----------



## DKMD (Apr 5, 2014)

You can use water or any kind of finish to swell and stiffen the fibers before the final cuts. The acute angle Scott suggested is helpful when the area is accessible with a pointy tool... I've also had good luck with a standard grind bowl gouge with a very steep/blunt angle and the heel relieved.

If there are punky areas, I've had some success soaking roughouts in Elmer's glue cut 50/50 with water... I submerge them in big ziplock bags for a day or two then air dry then for several days. Sort of a frugal man's stabilizing setup...

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## APBcustoms (Apr 5, 2014)

I use thin ca glue and soak it and turn it back although you then have to use ca all over or you'll have one really realy shiney patch lol

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## Schroedc (Apr 5, 2014)

Thank you all for the suggestions. I'll get a few finished this week and post some pictures!


----------



## JR Custom Calls (Apr 5, 2014)

I'm guessing this is why people like to turn box elder wet? I noticed that with a piece I turned of dry FBE.. I used 80 grit to take care of it, but it took a while.


----------



## APBcustoms (Apr 5, 2014)

Also if you have reverse on you lathe that's a big help when sanding it out


----------



## Kevin (Apr 5, 2014)

APBcustoms said:


> Also if you have reverse on you lathe that's a big help when sanding it out



Actually if you reverse the lathe it puts all those chips right back on, didn't you know that?

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


----------



## Mike Jones (Apr 6, 2014)

Kevin said:


> Actually if you reverse the lathe it puts all those chips right back on, didn't you know that?



*Here is proof of what Kevin says.*




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=736730283023858

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## APBcustoms (Apr 6, 2014)

Kevin said:


> Actually if you reverse the lathe it puts all those chips right back on, didn't you know that?



I saw that video had me cracking haha


----------



## woodintyuuu (Apr 6, 2014)

i agree with most of the comments but in the end it all comes down to your personal prwactice , practice, pwactice. . cl


----------



## Schroedc (Apr 6, 2014)

I think I've gotten it figured out, A combination of dampening it, light final passes with my Hunter tool and a little sanding with a rotary tool as the bowl goes 'round. Hopefully get the finish on a few sometime this week in between other paying work already ordered.


----------



## woodintyuuu (Apr 6, 2014)

NO hunter tool !!!! like scot said detail gouge ground way way back stood up on almost 90 degree angle to the pc and razor sharp one continuous cut smallest ribbons coming of not duff and then you have a surface sandpaper will rough up and tear out. very scary cut but and this is a big butt - no tearout. be extreme careful as a catch is quite possibel practice on something else till ya get it. do you want me to post a picture of the gouge ground properly. cl

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Schroedc (Apr 6, 2014)

Sure, a picture would be great. I found the cup shaped cutter held almost flat took almost a perfect shear cut though.... I'll take a look at that grind and then give it a whirl to see the difference.


----------



## woodintyuuu (Apr 7, 2014)

okay picts are bad new camera 1. gouge grind all way around way swept back this is not a bevel riding tool!!!! 2 shallow flute pict of top 3.side view 4 whole tool in handle its about 16 inches or so long completly not a massive thing this will cut a thin 64th inch shaving that will be as good or better than 220 grit paper.
IT IS ALWAYS BETTER CUT LEARN TO CUT RIGHT , THAN TO SAND OURSELVES INTO SUBMISSION. IMHO  CL


----------



## Schroedc (Apr 7, 2014)

woodintyuuu said:


> okay picts are bad new camera 1. gouge grind all way around way swept back this is not a bevel riding tool!!!! 2 shallow flute pict of top 3.side view 4 whole tool in handle its about 16 inches or so long completly not a massive thing this will cut a thin 64th inch shaving that will be as good or better than 220 grit paper.
> IT IS ALWAYS BETTER CUT LEARN TO CUT RIGHT , THAN TO SAND OURSELVES INTO SUBMISSION. IMHO  CLView attachment 47498
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks for the photos.

Ease up a bit, YOU DON'T NEED TO SHOUT. I CAN READ LOWER CASE. That grind is just a bit more relieved than the fingernail grind I use right now. I do know how to cut and use a gouge and a skew. I haven't had this issue with any of the other woods I've worked with for bowls because I do think I know what I'm doing. If Hunter and EWT and WTT carbides didn't have a place in the workshop I'd think those companies would have folded already. 

I guess I should just stick to the pens since using a carbide from time to time shows I don't have a clue. I'll refrain from discussing bowls going forward.


----------



## DKMD (Apr 7, 2014)

Cliff, if you're not riding the bevel of that tool, I'm guessing you're using it in a sheer scraping mode... How's that any different than any other edge presented as a scraper? I've always been of the mindset that the are lots of ways to skin a burl, and I can never have too many tricks in my bag.


----------



## woodintyuuu (Apr 7, 2014)

doc , i am not using it as a shear scraper either, i would simply turn my normal gouge on end an have at it- this grind and positionining are a total different animal.
It is used almost vertical and slightly to the right or left depending on your hand flavor the long grind is so you touch only the cutting surface, and the tool needs to be razor sharp, the potential to catch is certain, but it WILL cut cleanly like no other tool. It is for the very last cleanup cut, if of course you havent already chewed it to pcs. No scraping at all just slicing . Colin i am sorry that you took offense to my comments. As for shouting you have taught me something today i just thought i was emphasising . Im a computer moron and that was all. That said all the tools you and all have mentioned are certainly needed in workshops. As for not making bolws because a fat old man told you of a different way > that would be a travesty. I have been in your position many times and i feelt like you reacted also , I certainly did not mean to say anything to your skills , just loudly showing you a turnip instead of a carrot. thanks cl

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


----------



## NYWoodturner (Apr 8, 2014)

Not trying to put words in Cliff's mouth, but I think I know what he meant. This is my go to chisel. (I use it probably more than I should.) It _is_ a tool you present from the bevel, but it has such an acute angle and pointed presentation that it is not a tool you *ride* the bevel on. When you get a catch with this grind it is no small event. You typically have to remove 1/8" of material minimum to recover. Soft woods are more dramatic. Punky FBE would be 1/4" or more to remove in order to recover. Because of the longer edge it is also great in the sheer scraping mode, but I think the reason I use it so much is that it is the final cut. There is little sanding to do with this grind that is really sharp. If you are down to really thin and mess up with this grind it is usually impossible to come back from without a "design modification"

Reactions: Like 2 | Thank You! 1


----------



## NYWoodturner (Apr 8, 2014)

Sorry Cliff - I guess we were responding at the same time but I was cooking dinner at the same time... You move faster than I do


----------



## David Hill (Apr 8, 2014)

Rather than CA glue I use sanding sealer for stubborn end grain. Apply, dry, then turn, apply etc.


----------



## Tim Carter (Apr 10, 2014)

Another way to reduce/eliminate tearout is to use a termite tool for the bottom and lower curve of the bowl. Takes some practice to get the angle right but it does a good job.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## APBcustoms (Apr 30, 2014)

Ugh


----------



## DKMD (Apr 30, 2014)

It's hard to beat a skew for stuff like that, and a little thin CA will help as you go along... Pretty stuff!

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Mike1950 (Apr 30, 2014)

Big leaf maple quilt is temperamental like FBE- must be a soft maple thing.


----------



## MikeMD (May 2, 2014)

Schroedc said:


> So I'm working on some bowls out of some nice FBE and I'm getting all kinds of tear out on the end grain sides. Tools are sharp, bearings are good, I don't have this problem with other stuff. Any suggestions to minimize this as I turn? I'd rather not have to resort to the 60 grit gouge especially on the inside.
> 
> Thanks in advance!



First of all, FBE is notorious for tear out. So, if you are going to turn it, it may just be something you have to deal with. That said, I've found that a shear scrap with your bowl gouge on the outside of the bowl (with a freshly sharpened tool...CBNs really DO give you a sharper edge), and a shear scrape with an inside bowl scraper on the inside of the bowl (again, freshly sharpened tool on the CBN) are great ways to minimize or even eliminate tear out on woods that aren't punky from rot. Punky woods from rot will tear out no matter what (from my experience). Oh, and a VERY light touch with those shear scrapes! That is not the time to "remove stock" and/or "form" your shapes. Light fluffy shavings should be whisking off your tool.

If all that fails, burn the FBE...you won't get any tearout when it is on fire! :)

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


----------



## APBcustoms (May 2, 2014)

MikeMD said:


> If all that fails, burn the FBE...you won't get any tearout when it is on fire! :)



I feel like that's against the law


----------



## MikeMD (May 2, 2014)

I know someone that burns his turnings in his chiminea (or however you spell it) if it has sat around in his shop long enough without anyone claiming it to take home. I bet he won't speak up about it. Maybe if he corrects the spelling of chiminea, you'll find out who I'm talking about...

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## David Drickhamer (May 30, 2014)

Paste wax works for end grain tear out. The wax will fill the tear out supporting the fibers allowing them to be sanded smooth. You can also use the wax before shear scraping. The wax will not affect your finish.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## Vern Tator (May 31, 2014)

Once you shared the Hunter tool, the problem became obvious. You can get tear out with a bowl gouge or botomfeeder gouge if you do not have the bevel on the wood. It is possible to have tool contact and not have the leading edge of the bevel in contact. It will tear out every time, no matter how sharp it is. I had a tearout problem with a flame grain a week or so ago. When nothing worked I applied lots of Walnut Oil, which will be my eventual finish. It wicked through amazingly quickly. I did not realize that I was turning a ring porous wood. The oil solved the problem.


----------

