# Help Me Make This Lidded Box Please . . . .



## Kevin (Dec 13, 2015)

I never start out with a plan I just go forward like a bull in a china closet. Often times I ruin perfectly nice blanks because of it. I started to round this piece of chinaberry for a hollow form for my MIL or my mom - not sure who gets it but they are both getting something similar.

I decided to avoid the HF because I don't think I have enough experience to risk a disaster this close to xmas - I need to be productive. So it's going to be a lidded box. But I need help figuring out how to make the shape and what process to use. When should I part the lid in the process before or after I get the final shape and sanding all finished or before, and where would you part it?

I'm going to take it off the lathe and make something else until I have a real plan this time. help!

P.S. Don't ask why the tenons are so big I put them on 2 years ago.

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## Tclem (Dec 13, 2015)

I don't do a lot of them but I part the kid of after it is round. I then turn both parts (different times) to close to final shape and make sure the lid is tight. I then put the lid on and mount the entire box and do a fine tune turning and sanding to make sure the lid and box are the same size.

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## Kevin (Dec 13, 2015)

BTW it's 5.75" long and 4" in the current rough round.


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## Kevin (Dec 13, 2015)

Tclem said:


> ... I then put the lid on and mount the entire box and do a fine tune turning and sanding to make sure the lid and box are the same size.



That's what I've done the few times I have made one - but I have never settled in on a routine - I'm always scrapping and scratching to get the final shape between centers but then get rid of the holes to do final sanding. I have always ended up using jamb chucks - is that how you do it too?


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## SENC (Dec 13, 2015)

Looks great as-is for a MIL.

Reactions: Funny 6


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## Tclem (Dec 13, 2015)

Kevin said:


> That's what I've done the few times I have made one - but I have never settled in on a routine - I'm always scrapping and scratching to get the final shape between centers but then get rid of the holes to do final sanding. I have always ended up using jamb chucks - is that how you do it too?


I turn tenons and turn both then on remount I use the tenon on box and just live center in lid


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## Tclem (Dec 13, 2015)

@manbuckwal ehats your technique


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## NYWoodturner (Dec 13, 2015)

I would just follow what you have already stared and end up something like this. 


 

I would get the outside profile close and then part the lid. 
I would then hollow the box - to finish.
Turn a raised bead on the box with a flare at a slighter angle than the one on your chuck jaws.
Turn a recess in the lid that is close but will not fit the bead on the box. The angle on the inside of the recess should compliment the angle on the box bead. Then sand down to finish grade and it should be a tight fit with a "snap" when pressed on.
Snap the lid on, holding with the tenon on the bottom of the box.
Final shape and sand as a complete unit including the knob. You could make that from a complimenting wood if you wanted. 
Remove the lid and place the box on a jam chuck and remove the recess.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## Tclem (Dec 13, 2015)

Ok Scott spelled it out


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## Tony (Dec 13, 2015)

NYWoodturner said:


> I would just follow what you have already stared and end up something like this.
> View attachment 92910
> 
> I would get the outside profile close and then part the lid.
> ...



That's exactly what I was going to say!

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Kevin (Dec 13, 2015)

NYWoodturner said:


> I would just follow what you have already stared and end up something like this.
> View attachment 92910
> 
> I would get the outside profile close and then part the lid.
> ...




Thanks Scott for the help. But I am still a neophyte remember. I'm not able to understand all the instructions but will read again several times. Also you're showing one of the tenons left as a lid but it would not work the tenons are ugly plain dark BLM just scrap. 

The main thing I do not understand is this:

_Turn a raised bead on the box with a flare at a slighter angle than the one on your chuck jaws._


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## NYWoodturner (Dec 13, 2015)

Look at the outside angle of your chuck jaws. With your chuck empty tighten it up until complete;y closed. Thats what you want the raised bead on your box to look like. The angle on the outside is where the action is, but it doesn't need to be as sharp an angle as your chuck. Flatten it out a bit. I never measure anything so I can't really give you a specific angle.


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## NYWoodturner (Dec 13, 2015)




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## NYWoodturner (Dec 13, 2015)

OK - Crappy photo but it hopefully will give you a visual. Squint and pretend the edge of the bead is clear  Maybe an 88 degree angle?

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## Kevin (Dec 13, 2015)

Scott I am self taught I have no clue what you are telling me to do. Let me study on it a bit more tomorrow ......


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## manbuckwal (Dec 13, 2015)

Well.........on The FBEB I just finished, my original plan was to make an Ebony lid for it but I changed my mind after I got the finish on it . So it looked like this . 







I hollowed/finish sanded the inside then finish shaped, sanded and created the groove for removal, then applied my finish on the outside . I left a very slight bevel on the bottom so I could "wrap" the edge with the CA so to speak . I parted off the bottom and then brought my tail stock up to "mark" the center. Took it out of the Chuck and drilled it for the finial . Remounted, took the surface down flat , turned it down until it fit into the top of the "box" . Then I rough guessed how thick I needed the top edge of the lid to be so it would sit flush on top ( I left a lil thicker for sanding) . Took me three times taking off the Chuck and setting it on the box before I got it where I wanted it. Made a groove where I would part it of w saw then Sanded and finished on the chuck. Sawed it off and used power Palm sander to on underside of lid .

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## Kevin (Dec 13, 2015)

God I am so effing awful at reading instructions. I just can't picture stuff from words (part of my condition joking aside). Tom that helped a little more I think I am just going to have to do what I always do and forge ahead with no plan. Here goes . . . . .


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## manbuckwal (Dec 13, 2015)

Are you going to use one end of that for the lid ? 
If so, Figure out how you want the lid to be first. Shape to final shape . If you intend for the lid to slip over like this then I would make a groove where u intend to part the lid off and finish sand the side of the box including what would be the side of the lid and then remove the lid

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## NYWoodturner (Dec 13, 2015)

Thats exactly what I was trying to describe. It doesn't need to be that tall. The side of the lid needs to form a dovetail when snapped in place.

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## Kevin (Dec 14, 2015)

So this is probably too short a lid proportionally speaking. 



 

So are these the proper steps from this point?


Move lid parting groove lower (to my satisfaction)
Turn out old groove and re-establish new one
Remove as much wood between the lid and lid tenon as possible but do not part yet (so inside lid can be turned and finished later from tenon)
Give final shape and finish sanding to lid and box
Part lid from box
Mount lid in chuck and hollow lid and cut mortise - slightly wider dia. at top of mortise to accept dovetailed tenon from box
Finish & sand lid inside and as much outside as is exposed
Part lid from tenon and finish sanding the rest of the top of lid by hand
Chuck the box and drill hole, then finish hollowing it (what wall thickness should I shoot for? I always go too thin)
Turn box dovetailed tenon to friction fit with lid mortise - final sizing done with sandpaper so fit is still tight and all sanding has been done 
Finish sand inside box 
Mount lid on box and use jamb chuck on lid to finish sand again where lid and box mate for perfect fit 
Cut into tenon leaving just enough not to wobble and sand box bottom
Part box rest of the way from tenon and hand sand rest of the bottom 
Did I leave out anything, or get something in wrong order?

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## Kevin (Dec 14, 2015)

I just realized I didn't plan for the finish. I am not using poly because I am still having problems with it drying - new cans and all. I always seem to get back to lacquer I reckin that's what I will go with.


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## manbuckwal (Dec 14, 2015)

Kevin said:


> So this is probably too short a lid proportionally speaking.
> 
> View attachment 92956
> 
> ...



Looks good to me . 5/16 to 3/8 thick . Additionally, I leave about an inch thick bottom for added weight, but I'm usually dealing with lighter weighted woods like buckeye.

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## Kevin (Dec 14, 2015)

manbuckwal said:


> Looks good to me . 5/16 to 3/8 thick . Additionally, I leave about an inch thick bottom for added weight, but I'm usually dealing with lighter weighted woods like buckeye.



Chinaberry is almost as light so I will do that thanks again guys.

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## Tclem (Dec 14, 2015)

And if you can't figure it out then just turn some hair sticks

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## Kevin (Dec 14, 2015)

I have the body hollowed to 5/16" and didn't blow it up. I've decided against making the tenon and mortise like y'all showed because it will disrupt the pattern of the grain too much. I'm going to glue a block inside the lid maybe ebony and turn that down. I will probably screw it all up.


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## manbuckwal (Dec 14, 2015)

Kevin said:


> I have the body hollowed to 5/16" and didn't blow it up. I've decided against making the tenon and mortise like y'all showed because it will disrupt the pattern of the grain too much. I'm going to glue a block inside the lid maybe ebony and turn that down. I will probably screw it all up.



You are going to glue the finial in as a tenon ???


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## Jim Beam (Dec 14, 2015)

TONS of good information on ways to turn a lidded box in here

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## gman2431 (Dec 14, 2015)

I personally wouldn't make the lid any bigger in length. But I've only made one lidded box... Lol. 


Do you have a hot glue gun Kevin? 

They are awesome for flipping stuff like that around. A small dab will hold alot more than I thought it would.


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## Kevin (Dec 14, 2015)

manbuckwal said:


> You are going to glue the finial in as a tenon ???



I am now. The tenon just fell off when I chucked it. Didn't even turn the lathe on I grabbed the lid to check for tightness as we always do without even meaning to and it just fell off! 



 

I almost threw it in the burn pile and still may, but I chucked it up the only way I could figure out how and still try to maintain some kind of consistency - because I don't think I will ever get it mating with the box now. Not without putting it all back together (IF I can salvage the lid) and turning it down some more to bring everything back into round all the same. 



 

I don't really know what to do at this point. I know I need a waste tenon on top so I can turn the underside of the lid and permanent tenon ring I am going to add, but if make the hole for the waste tenon too big, how will I deal with that for the knob? I have a bit of a mound I left on top but not enough that the tenon hole would turn out without concaving the top of the lid. And I am afraid to drill too small a diameter hole for a tenon because it will bust off.


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## gman2431 (Dec 14, 2015)

Let me also state I do not have a hot glue gun for arts and crafts. I use 3m glue for bonding wood. Not sure how safe the other ones are.


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## Kevin (Dec 14, 2015)

Cody I only have the cheapo arts/crafts type glue gun. I don't think I would try to use it for this lid's new tenon though.


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## gman2431 (Dec 14, 2015)

The good hot melt is amazingly strong.


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## manbuckwal (Dec 14, 2015)

Kevin said:


> I am now. The tenon just fell off when I chucked it. Didn't even turn the lathe on I grabbed the lid to check for tightness as we always do without even meaning to and it just fell off!
> 
> View attachment 92985
> 
> ...




If you "flatten" the top as shown in your pic, can't you flip it around and hollow out the underside of the lid in those jaws ? You may have to slow the speed considerably tho


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## Kevin (Dec 14, 2015)

manbuckwal said:


> If you "flatten" the top as shown in your pic, can't you flip it around and hollow out the underside of the lid in those jaws ? You may have to slow the speed considerably tho



Yes, if I wanted a flat top. That is an option I didn't consider but will resort to it if I cannot think of something else.


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## Kevin (Dec 14, 2015)

I think I am just going to put it on the shelf and do something else. Like chop some firewood. I rarely screw that up. 

I have ONE MORE chinaberry blank this big and I sure didn't want to screw one of them up. I planned for my mom and MIL to get one each. I'm afraid to chuck the other one up now.


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## steve bellinger (Dec 14, 2015)

Kevin seeing what just happened to your tenon, what i would do , and a lot of folks laugh at me for doing this. But what i would do is, put your drill chuck in the tail , and drill a 1/4 inch hole all the way through that lid. Now take a pen Mandel and put your lid on it. Now turn both inside and out at the same time. The top of your lid will get a knob with a 1/4" tenon, and the inside will get ether a fancy button or as some folks do put a tear drop with that same 1/4 " tenon. Hope that makes since. I'm gonna take a few pics of one of my lids that i did just that. Will get back to the pics in a min.
Steve

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## woodintyuuu (Dec 14, 2015)

Kevin said:


> I am now. The tenon just fell off when I chucked it. Didn't even turn the lathe on I grabbed the lid to check for tightness as we always do without even meaning to and it just fell off!
> 
> View attachment 92985
> 
> ...


okay if you reverse the lid in the cole jaws and bring up your tailstock for support you could then turn a shallow rebate equal to the id of the lower box case . Then turn between centers a small offcut of either the chinaberry or say ebony , and fit it to the rebate with a little thickness proud , the bottom and top should now mate and jam them together with chuck and tailstock and do final thickness sanding with all grain aligned - easy peasy . then put finial in place and finish

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## duncsuss (Dec 14, 2015)

Would you consider an inset ring of turquoise (or other) in the lid?

If so, it might be possible to create a groove the right size for the chuck jaws to slip into then squeeze on the (very short) tenon inside the ring. That would let you get the bottom of the lid finished, make sure you leave something on the underside for the chuck to grip (by squeeze or expansion) so you can finish the top of the lid -- which you'll have to do after filling the groove.

Or what Steve or Cliff suggests.


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## Kevin (Dec 14, 2015)

Steve I understand exactly what you said(rare for me) but the only pen mandrel we have is bent. 

Cliff I don't understand what you said exactly but I will by tomorrow. I am turning an orb on the end of a dowel right now just to regain some confidence (and I ain't joking). 

Anyone who doesn't turn just don't get it man. This shite ain't easy. Some days I am like _"Oh hell yeah I got this whupped"_ and other days I wonder which lake to throw this effing thing into.


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## Kevin (Dec 14, 2015)

Duncan, if I understand what you're saying, I don't think the planes will all be close enough to the same for me to pull that off. But I love the idea of a turquoise ring.

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## steve bellinger (Dec 14, 2015)

All right man picture the first pic on your mandel. Turn what ever shape you like inside and out. @nd pic is what i fill the inside hole with. 3rd pic is for your knob. It can be as plain or as fancy as you like. Hope that helps.

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## steve bellinger (Dec 14, 2015)

All right as you don't have a mandel, you can just make one. Just take a chunk of hardwood, put it in your chuck, turn a hair stick, and go from there.

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## Kevin (Dec 14, 2015)

I love that Steve - you did something similar before and it rocks. It's beyond my ability but it does give me ideas.


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## duncsuss (Dec 14, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Duncan, if I understand what you're saying, I don't think the planes will all be close enough to the same for me to pull that off. But I love the idea of a turquoise ring.



What I had in mind: with the lid in the cole jaws exactly as you have it in the latest photo above, use a parting tool to push straight at the headstock from the tailstock end of the lathe (using the tool rest set 90 degrees across the ways).

That will cut a circular groove in the lid. The width of the groove has to be just a bit more than the thickness of the chuck jaws at the fattest point (typically the cross section is slightly dovetailed.)

The correct diameter for this ring is the diameter the jaws make when arranged _slightly _open so they make a perfect circle. You can arrange the jaws on any flat surface and see what they look like when there's about a 1/4" gap between the 4 pieces.

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## Kevin (Dec 14, 2015)

steve bellinger said:


> All right as you don't have a mandel, you can just make one. Just take a chunk of hardwood, put it in your chuck, turn a hair stick, and go from there.



I guess I don't get it - what will keep it from wobbling if it's just on a stick?


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## NYWoodturner (Dec 14, 2015)

Very similar to what everyone else is saying. I shared this with Kevin in a convo and he suggested I post it here. 

Nothing messed up at all - just a slight bump in the road. This is what makes turning fun and a challenge. 

Its in your cole jaws so it is centered. Put a drill chuck in your tail stock. 

Drill a hole that will automatically dead center in the lid. Whatever size you want to make the tone on the knob. Looks like 3/8 would be beefy and more than adequate. 

Chuck up whatever wood you want to use for the knob. Say ebony or ABW.

Turn the tenon to fit the hole you drilled in the lid. Leave the portion that will later be the knob thick enough to manhandle in you chuck with no fear of damage.

Glue the tenon in, or if its a tight enough fit just do a friction fit for now. 

Chuck it up by the "Knob" and do whatever you need to do to the bottom. 

Chuck the box back up by its tenon, friction fit the lid and use a revolving live center in your tailstock pulled up against it to hold it on. Do everything you need to do to the top. All you will have to finish by hand is whats under the point of the live cone center.

Then deal with the bottom of the box as you had planned.


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## Kevin (Dec 14, 2015)

duncsuss said:


> What I had in mind: with the lid in the cole jaws exactly as you have it in the latest photo above, use a parting tool to push straight at the headstock from the tailstock end of the lathe (using the tool rest set 90 degrees across the ways).
> 
> That will cut a circular groove in the lid. The width of the groove has to be just a bit more than the thickness of the chuck jaws at the fattest point (typically the cross section is slightly dovetailed.)
> 
> The correct diameter for this ring is the diameter the jaws make when arranged _slightly _open so they make a perfect circle. You can arrange the jaws on any flat surface and see what they look like when there's about a 1/4" gap between the 4 pieces.



I am loving this idea, even though I didn't really want to have the ring of turquoise on top of the lid. I initially thought you meant on the bottom but I see what you're saying now. It's a good idea and one I will keep in my queue.


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## duncsuss (Dec 14, 2015)

I think you've proved the old saying, "ask 4 turners the same question and you'll get 5 answers" 

Hopefully one (or more) of these will help you get the piece finished.

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## steve bellinger (Dec 14, 2015)

Kevin just went out in the shop and turned aa lid doing what i tried saying. Here's a bunch of pics, hope this helps at least a little.




























What i built is just a jam chuck just a one of a kind for this. I did have to cut the hair stick off flush so your tail would hold it tite.

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## Jim Beam (Dec 14, 2015)

Kevin said:


> I am loving this idea, even though I didn't really want to have the ring of turquoise on top of the lid. I initially thought you meant on the bottom but I see what you're saying now. It's a good idea and one I will keep in my queue.




Just to keep this all in perspective,............... this is for a MIL people! Make it as ugly as possible and see if she keeps a straight face when she unwraps her present. You'll know immediately where you stand with her.

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## gman2431 (Dec 14, 2015)

Kevin do you have a bottle stopper mandrel? 

That's how I did the lid to mine and have the same exact button on the bottom that Steve does.

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## Kevin (Dec 14, 2015)

Steve thanks for doing that. I see what you mean now - I could do that! I see pictures so much easier than words lol. What a great bunch of guys thanks for all the help everyone. Not sure exactly how I'll do it tomorrow but I won't have an excuse for failure with all this input.

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## steve bellinger (Dec 14, 2015)

Kevin i am self thought like a lot of us. Have never had any one show me how to do anything, except sharpen my gouges. Only had dial up when i first started turning so didn't even have u-tube to go to. just kept saying to my self if some one else can do it i can to.LOL It does help that my mom was Irish though can you say bull headed.

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## Kevin (Dec 14, 2015)

steve bellinger said:


> Kevin i am self thought like a lot of us. Have never had any one show me how to do anything, except sharpen my gouges. Only had dial up when i first started turning so didn't even have u-tube to go to. just kept saying to my self if some one else can do it i can to.LOL It does help that my mom was Irish though can you say bull headed.



I guess that's the only thing that has gotten me this far too, as if far is where I am.

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## manbuckwal (Dec 15, 2015)

This has been a great learning experience for all of us me thinks  Look froward to seeing your completed project now .

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## Vern Tator (Dec 15, 2015)

Hey Kevin, Not to throw a wrench in the works, but.... Here is my process:
1 round the block between centers
2 put a spigot on both ends ( to grab with a chuck)
3 mark line for bottom edge of the lid.
4 rough shape the box ( get it to the general idea you are looking for.)
5Part a groove in about 1/4" about 3/8 wide ( this will form the tenon that will hold the lid)
6Part the lid about 1/16 below the bottom of the lid.( you want to leave just a little of the tenon on the lid for reference) Use as thin a parting tool as you have making the part just a hair wider then the tool. When you get close, finish with a handsaw.
7 Chuck up the lid and hollow it. ( be sure to be inside of the shadow of the tenon) there should be a shoulder on the mortise, check to be sure that the mortise is straight up and down, you don't want this to lean in or out as it will affect the closure.
8Apply finish to the inside of the lid.
9Chuck the base and hollow. Leave perhaps 1/4" thickness for the tenon when hollowing, you can make it thinner later. Cut a slight taper on the tenon, maybe 1/16" ( easy does it, you want the top edge just a hair smaller then the base edge) 
10 check to see if the top edge is small enough to enter the lid, keep trimming in small increments until the lit just fits. Now, with the lathe spinning, carefully put the lid on the tenon. this , done quickly and gently will put a burn mark on the tenon where the lid fits. Use this mark as a guide and cut the tenon down. [ cut, turn off the lathe, check fit, Repeat as necessary ]
11 Having a fairly tight fit of the lid, put the lid on (match up the grain), bring up the tail stock to hold it, Make the final cuts to blend the lid to the base and finish shape the lid. there will be a small nib at the tailstock that can be turned off at the end ( if the fit is less than perfect you may have to wrap the joint with making tape to get it to stay together. Sand and finish everything you can reach, the entire lid and most of the base.
12 Remove the base and make a jam chuck out of a waste block (if I get a choice, I like the jam chuck to be a mortise that the tenon on the base goes into, because it puts less pressure on the tenon. Bring up the tailstock to hold this in place and finish turning it. Sand , remove the tailstock and very gently finish turning the base, sand and finish. Another easy project that take longer to explain than to do. 
BTW if I get the choice, I rough out boxes and lids and put them on the shelf or in my small shop kiln for a bit to let the wood quit moving, then finish turn them. Merry Christmas Kevin

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## Kevin (Dec 21, 2015)

Well I ended up making it simple. The wife says it turned out great but she says that about everything I do even it it looks like crap. It's a holly knob. I very pleased with the fit of the lid - best fit I have ever managed. Will try to get some better pics later when I take pics of some of the other gifts I'm making. Still needs a few coats.

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## manbuckwal (Dec 21, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Well I ended up making it simple. The wife says it turned out great but she says that about everything I do even it it looks like crap. It's a holly knob. I very pleased with the fit of the lid - best fit I have ever managed. Will try to get some better pics later when I take pics of some of the other gifts I'm making. Still needs a few coats.
> 
> View attachment 93366



That is a classy looking box Kevin . Figured walnut never gets old !

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## Kevin (Dec 21, 2015)

manbuckwal said:


> That is a classy looking box Kevin . Figured walnut never gets old !




Thanks Tom. It's a chinaberry box and holly knob.


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## duncsuss (Dec 21, 2015)

That is a classy looking box Kevin . Figured chinaberry never gets old.




(seriously -- it is a great looking box )

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## manbuckwal (Dec 21, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Thanks Tom. It's a chinaberry box and holly knob.



Yeah, you know, the other walnut . Guess I have too much walnut on the brain 


But I know you have some fantastic walnut that would make some awesome boxes too

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## Kevin (Dec 21, 2015)

manbuckwal said:


> Yeah, you know, the other walnut . Guess I have too much walnut on the brain
> 
> 
> But I know you have some fantastic walnut that would make some awesome boxes too



You know I do! The best looking walnut comes from you and

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## NYWoodturner (Dec 22, 2015)

That really came out nice Kevin - we need better pics ! The holly is a perfect match for the chinaberry. Thats sweeeeeet!

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