# The Poor Little 9mm . . .



## Kevin (Jul 8, 2014)

I have a bunch of 9mm. But I haven't owned a 9mm platform since 1993 and doubt I ever will. The 9mm has no advantage over other rounds in which the anemic 9mm tries to excel. IMO it's a terrible round for numerous reasons and I have never liked it. You can't cite one advantage a 9mm has over other cartridges that I can cite are much better in almost every category, at least that's my contention. It seems the US Army has finally come to its senses . . . again. 


*The US Army rejects the 9mm again* . . .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## JR Custom Calls (Jul 8, 2014)

.45 ACP is definitely my favorite carry round. Not snappy like a .40, so it's easier to do double/triple taps IMO. Of course, everyone has their own favorites.

Can't blame the military for not accepting the 9mm...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kevin (Jul 8, 2014)

JR Custom Calls said:


> Can't blame the military for not accepting the 9mm...



Right but did you read the article? The process they're using to find a replacement is a typical military industrial complex/political/lobbyist follow-the-money shell game where common sense is, as always, AWOL. IOW the same process that landed the nonsensical 9mm in holsters in the first place.


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## Schroedc (Jul 8, 2014)

Hey now, When we take over Europe there will be tons of 9mm ammo for us to use since that seems like the only thing they use over there


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## Kevin (Jul 8, 2014)

Schroedc said:


> Hey now, When we take over Europe there will be tons of 9mm ammo for us to use since that seems like the only thing they use over there



Yeah well just don't forget to carry your own when you're conquering the former Soviet Union - their 9s won't fit what you'll be wielding. Well, they'll fit but that's not good . . . . .


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## JR Custom Calls (Jul 8, 2014)

Kevin said:


> Right but did you read the article? The process they're using to find a replacement is a typical military industrial complex/political/lobbyist follow-the-money shell game where common sense is, as always, AWOL. IOW the same process that landed the nonsensical 9mm in holsters in the first place.


I did.. I just try to reserve my political comments. Made too many people mad posting common sense (IMO) ideologies.


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## Schroedc (Jul 8, 2014)

Kevin said:


> Yeah well just don't forget to carry your own when you're conquering the former Soviet Union - their 9s won't fit what you'll be wielding. Well, they'll fit but that's not good . . . . .




I do agree with you, I've always found the 9mm an underpowered cartridge. I sold the Browning Hi-Power years ago. Funny thing was I still had around 1000 rounds of ammo on the shelf, A guy up here was having such a hard time finding any he traded me even up for 1000 rounds of .45ACP I could use for my 1911's and my Glock.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kevin (Jul 8, 2014)

JR Custom Calls said:


> I did.. I just try to reserve my political comments. Made too many people mad posting common sense (IMO) ideologies.



This isn't politics. Political discussions that we want to avoid are ones that argue my party is better than yours etc. Discussing specific "candidates" etc. or topics such as

_My wonderful senator, Mr. Pilfering of Wazza Yazza Texas, has tendered a bill to imprison all the illegal undocumented snails living in the cracks of the sidewalk in front of the River City library. What do y'all think of this bill?_

See, we couldn't discuss this bill without getting a shitstorm from the snail advocates, so we need to avoid such topics. But the US Army choosing a carry sidearm is fair game. Their process may be political in nature, but no politicians are named because they are getting paid under the table so we cannot call them out by name and thereby offend their blind, idiotic supporters.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Schroedc (Jul 8, 2014)

My parties are always better. I get dancing girls and have cake. What are your parties like?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4 | +Karma 1


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## Kevin (Jul 8, 2014)

Schroedc said:


> I get dancing girls and have cake.



I make sure my dancing girls come *out *of the cake with nothing on except icing . . . so obviously my parties are better.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 6


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## kweinert (Jul 8, 2014)

Schroedc said:


> My parties are always better. I get dancing girls and have cake. What are your parties like?



Well, if your dancing girls come out of the cake then you're one up on me. That's an upgrade I've not yet talked them in to :)

(Added afterwards: evidently Kevin and I have similar minds. And there's the scary thought of the day for you.)

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Mike1950 (Jul 8, 2014)

Kevin said:


> This isn't politics. Political discussions that we want to avoid are ones that argue my party is better than yours etc. Discussing specific "candidates" etc. or topics such as
> 
> _My wonderful senator, Mr. Pilfering of Wazza Yazza Texas, has tendered a bill to imprison all the illegal undocumented snails living in the cracks of the sidewalk in front of the River City library. What do y'all think of this bill?_
> 
> See, we couldn't discuss this bill without getting a shitstorm from the snail advocates, so we need to avoid such topics. But the US Army choosing a carry sidearm is fair game. Their process may be political in nature, but no politicians are named because they are getting paid under the table so we cannot call them out by name and thereby offend their blind, idiotic supporters.




 Ya got somethin against snails Buddy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The germans did alright with the walther ppk for a while!!!


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## Kevin (Jul 8, 2014)

Mike1950 said:


> The germans did alright with the walther ppk for a while!!!



No, they didn't actually. It's just a long held myth that has been perpetuated by Hollywood and firearms lore. The ballistics of a cartridge cannot be changed by the flag it is under nor the platform that fires it. But I am not going to engage in a debate it's been hashed out forever. Facts are facts and some people simply cannot accept them because it means changing their thinking.

The PPK is a fine platform but the 9 is a terrible round.


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## barry richardson (Jul 8, 2014)

9mm is certainly a weaker round than the 45, but the weapons themselves are far more reliable than than the 1911. The fat rounds are prone to double feed, not fully eject the spent shell etc. Not good things in the heat of battle. I have a 9mm Sig with over 15000 rounds through it without a single misfire. Not a 9mm lover and fully accept that the 45 is a more lethal round, but other factors have to be considered.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kevin (Jul 8, 2014)

barry richardson said:


> other factors have to be considered.



I agree totally. An experienced well-trained shooter with a blowgun has the advantage over a panicked untrained shooter with a .50 cal. There's way too many variables to even discuss it but I always try to come from a "all things being equal" stance, even though they rarely are, because there has to be some kind of benchmark as a starting point.

I'm sure I don't have the experience you do with any caliber, but I have run thousands of rounds through my SA 1911 without a FTF or FTE, and I have run a few boxes of no-name crap through it. But I don't agree that all 1911's are less reliable than all 9mm platforms because there again - there's too many variables. I hear what you're saying the the 1911 is inherently less reliable than some other designs, but I do not agree that it's so unreliable so as to be considered a high percentage ding on carrying one.

Reactions: Like 1


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## barry richardson (Jul 8, 2014)

I hear ya, definitely a lot of variables. all my mentors were 1911 die hards, and they were Vietnam era guys, saw plenty of combat, but I imagine part of their attachment was sentimental. I don't have any experience with double action 45's like Glock and Sig, they might be great. The sad thing is that to find a new handgun for the military, they will establish a committee that will commission the development of a new handgun that in the end, no one will be happy with, like the Beretta, and spend zillions doing it. It would be far better if they agreed with an existing "off the shelf model". there are plenty of good ones. But lobbyist wont let that happen.....

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Schroedc (Jul 8, 2014)

I have never had an issue with my 1911's or my older Glock but if I had the money and needed another, I had the chance to put 200 rounds through an HK USP in .45 and was very impressed.


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## HomeBody (Jul 9, 2014)

I owned a Browning Hi-Power and also a S&W Model 59 back when they first came out. The 9mm round sucks. What were the Germans thinking? It's a great round to wound someone, but when I shoot someone in my house I want them down with one shot. .45ACP is it. Goodnight Irene. Gary


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## El Guapo (Jul 23, 2014)

Meanwhile, the Bureau is moving from .40 to 9mm. Supposedly there is a new 9mm round that ballistically outperforms .40 and .45.


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## Schroedc (Jul 23, 2014)

It gives them an excuse to order even more ammo

Reactions: Agree 1


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## El Guapo (Jul 23, 2014)

Hey now, that is DHS that is stockpiling all the ammo, not the Bureau!!


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## Kevin (Jul 23, 2014)

El Guapo said:


> Meanwhile, the Bureau is moving from .40 to 9mm. Supposedly there is a new 9mm round that ballistically outperforms .40 and .45.



If you're referring to the RIP round that really has nothing to do with the cartridge - it's just a bullet design that can be applied to any caliber cartridge. I don't know much about it other than it looks wicked as heck. To me it looks like a sabot that doesn't fall away but continues on into and penetrates the target. It looks devastating.


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## El Guapo (Jul 23, 2014)

I don't know any of the specifics on the new round or what makes it different (no one seems to know), but it is nearly a done deal. Lots of money switching over!


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## El Guapo (Jul 23, 2014)

I'm not sure if they've changed the cartridge or something about the bullet... There are only about a million different JHP designs out there for 9mm. I would think it would need to be a combination of changing both, but that is purely speculation. I doubt glock will retain the contract... My money says they'll go with Springfield.


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## Kevin (Jul 23, 2014)

You can't change a cartridge physically Andrew, or it ceases to be the cartridge - in this case a 9 x 19mm. There are various lengths of 9mms but the 19 is the most popular.

It has to be the bullet or propellant where any radical change comes. As I said you're probably thinking of the RIP . . . .


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## El Guapo (Jul 24, 2014)

I misspoke... when I said cartridge I meant everything behind the bullet, not the casing itself. Possibly a different type of propellent (faster burning, hotter burning, laced with pixie dust, etc.), but not a physically different cartridge was what I was suggesting. I don't know if they are moving to the RIP or not, but that is wicked looking! I imagine a lot of used Glock 23's and 27's are going to be coming up soon!


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## El Guapo (Jul 24, 2014)

I will say this... I don't seen the Bureau paying for that round. They don't get unlimited funds like DHS.


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## kweinert (Jul 24, 2014)

And counterpoint:











I don't know one way or the other, for sure. I'm just pointing out that it's worth investigating.


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## Kevin (Jul 24, 2014)

kweinert said:


> And counterpoint:
> 
> I don't know one way or the other, for sure. I'm just pointing out that it's worth investigating.



I'm not touting the RIP. It looks wicked but odds are it's a fad that will pass like 99% of all new "wonder rounds" or if the gun-hating congress thinks it's too effective it will go the way of the Black Talon. I just don't know of anything else "new" out there that Andrew could have been referring to when he said these "new" 9mm outperform a .45ACP - that just ain't gonna happen. Actually he said -- _Supposedly there is a new 9mm round that ballistically outperforms .40 and .45_ -- lumping the .45 in with the .40 which makes no sense either. The 9mm is and always be an anemic cartridge compared to the .45 and even the .40.

Anthony I know you are just passing on what you have read or heard - BTW where did you hear this to begin with?


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## JR Custom Calls (Jul 24, 2014)

I see that billet going one of two ways. Like you said Kevin, it'll either be too 'deadly' like the black talon, or it'll be all hype and no real world advantage (or potentially disadvantage) like that hornady critical defense crap that sucks


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## El Guapo (Jul 24, 2014)

The idea of one round out-performing another also deals a great deal with what metric you are using. I don't see one magic round every out-performing in every metric, so my guess is stopping power and lethality are the main priorities, but even those can be measured in a hundred different ways. The main point of my post was not about the rumored new round or about how it performs, but rather that the FBI is most likely moving to 9mm.


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## Kevin (Jul 24, 2014)

El Guapo said:


> The main point of my post was not about the rumored new round or about how it performs, but rather that the FBI is most likely moving to 9mm.



That I can believe. And it's a decision they will no doubt regret. Moving from a .40 to a 9mm can only mean one thing . . . . . more economic politics aka _the brother-in-law effect_. 

I have a ton of wood shelves to sand but I am going to sell my drum sander and replace it with a Craftsman 1/4 sheet pad sander - but don't worry these new sanders vibrate and that drum sander only spins.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## El Guapo (Jul 24, 2014)

Now I won't argue with you there, Kevin! And I'm sure in 20 years they'll do another study and move to something else.

Remember, never apply logic or reason to the gov't.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## SENC (Jan 18, 2015)

Kevin said:


> No, they didn't actually. It's just a long held myth that has been perpetuated by Hollywood and firearms lore. The ballistics of a cartridge cannot be changed by the flag it is under nor the platform that fires it. But I am not going to engage in a debate it's been hashed out forever. Facts are facts and some people simply cannot accept them because it means changing their thinking.
> 
> The PPK is a fine platform but the 9 is a terrible round.


PPK was/is .380... I know that is a 9mm diameter round, but different and lighter weight than the 9mm parabellum most people mean when saying 9mm.

I don't have as much objection to 9mm. In fact, I've been looking off and on for a few years for a Walther P99c in 9mm as a concealed carry gun... they've been very hard to find for a few years, but some are available now as Walther "re-released" it last year. It is a pretty widely respected weapon, but I'm interested in any experience any of you have had with the P99c. I've only shot one a couple times, but was impressed with shootability and accuracy given its size.

One big advantage of the 9mm round is wide availability and low cost relative to other rounds. I want something I can have fun shooting and not go broke.


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## Kevin (Jan 18, 2015)

SENC said:


> ....than the 9mm parabellum



Surely you aren't going to start another "parabellum" discussion. 

But I digress, shoot what you like. That's what counts. No right or wrong there.


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## SENC (Jan 18, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Surely you aren't going to start another "parabellum" discussion.
> 
> But I digress, shoot what you like. That's what counts. No right or wrong there.


Damn, I thought if anything would cozen you into gymnologizing it would be resurrecting the 9mm thread.

I agree, though, shoot what you enjoy and get good at it. If you ever need it for real, a 22 on target is a hell of a lot more effective than a 50 cal elephant cartridge off target.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The PenSmith (Feb 15, 2015)

I alternate between 3 carry guns, my Kimber 1911 in .45, another 1911 in .38 Super and a M&P Compact 9. I shoot all three well, not great, but well. Shot placement trumps all, I shoot often and reload all my rounds except my carry rounds. I also saw the article on the Feb's going to 9mm, seemed odd that would go backward.... typical government BS until someone gets killed.


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