# I grew up logging. Three quarters of a century later we see a lot of bad work!



## TheHuntingRifle (Apr 5, 2018)

Many years ago I grew up on a very big farm and we logged with horses. A lot of logging jobs I see I wouldn’t want on my Acreage!


----------



## Nature Man (Apr 5, 2018)

Like what kinds would you NOT want, and what types would you want? Chuck


----------



## TheHuntingRifle (Apr 5, 2018)

I have a PhD in Environmental Science. Very few with that degree own much land. So my attitude with this was not formed in a few days or years. Being Scandinavian in large part has lead me to travel and work in s number of areas. I have worked for states, the Feds, and International Agencies. I believe every piece of land should be treated with an eye to the future. A lot of timber harvesters are quite good at cutting and moving timber. Question is what is the goal, and what are the long term consequences. I have seen a lot of cut and run operations though. I think you know what I mean!


----------



## gman2431 (Apr 5, 2018)

TheHuntingRifle said:


> I have a PhD in Environmental Science. Very few with that degree own much land. So my attitude with this was not formed in a few days or years. Being Scandinavian in large part has lead me to travel and work in s number of areas. I have worked for states, the Feds, and International Agencies. I believe every piece of land should be treated with an eye to the future. A lot of timber harvesters are quite good at cutting and moving timber. Question is what is the goal, and what are the long term consequences. I have seen a lot of cut and run operations though. I think you know what I mean!



Since I seen your tag about stream protection i couldnt agree more... 2 years ago the drain commissioner (which holds a ton of power here and is hard to stop) unleashed a logging crew to take dead ash from a chunk of land. By the time they were stopped they cleared almost 2 miles of pristine trout water clear to the banks and even started removing lumber and redirecting the stream... To say it will take a long time for that area to recover is an understatement.


----------



## gman2431 (Apr 5, 2018)

I thought 2 miles seemed short... Had to look it up again... http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2015/04/deq_violation_little_thornappl.html


----------



## TheHuntingRifle (Apr 5, 2018)

I wrote the best management practices guide in NYS. I worked in NY, Vermont, West Virginia, Florida, Mass, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Alaska. Etc.. I have a great interest in our National Parks. But private land is often a free for all, and often public land gets really creamed by loggers. We forward everything, and do not skid. We also know how to stream cross as we have built stream improvement features in about ten states. My son is one of the best Log harvesters I know and it is amazing to see what good training and care can accomplish. I do everything from landscaping contracting in Florida to the same in the Northeast. At some point we will have a lot on this on U Tube. Unfortunately some state agencies only care about grist for their mill and have no real interest in Environmental Conservation, let alone in say preserving Brook Trout habitat.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## gman2431 (Apr 6, 2018)

Id love to read some of your work... Is it published online?


----------



## TheHuntingRifle (Apr 6, 2018)

I published some articles.About ten that have been downloaded frequently. My MS Thesis long ago, about 1975 was about the most requested from Cornell University. That was on Brook Trout. Spawning Behavior and Strain Tolerance of Brook Trout Salvelinus fontinalis in Acidified Water. Other articles that got wide distribution for awihile were in American Fisheries Society and Canadian Journal of Fisheries Research Biology. I worked for consultants, states, again the Feds in various capacities, and the best stint as a privateer usually for private landowners. Today most of the work I do is for my son Robin who met Jacques Costeau years ago and decided to find a way to live the life aquatic. Some of the many projects were published in state journals or magazines like Wild and Wonderful West Virginia. Much of my life seems to be in the rear view mirror. Soon my website will be back and runnng. Problem is I am fairly busy at present and it is easy to get work that is difficult to follow through on properly. I will further elucidate if time allows. Right now we have an important project underway! Clear Water, Tight Lines to You All!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## justallan (Apr 6, 2018)

@TheHuntingRifle is this post just a spur of the moment rant or would you care to take a few minutes and discuss it some?
I've been a part of some very large logging jobs on the west coast when I was younger, using both skidders and yarders and agree with what I think you are trying to relay here.
I also would enjoy reading some of your work, as it sounds like you are a very informed individual on a very important topic. Can you please post some links or be a bit more specific on finding some of your work?
Keep in mind that a discussion on here lets a lot of folks that have no idea what one part of this business is all about, see and experience what you have seen and lots here would really enjoy it.
Have a great day.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## TheHuntingRifle (Apr 6, 2018)

I post no spur of the moment rants. My time is valuable. A lot of Internet exchange is nothing more than shallow, poorly thought out and basically worthless drivel. Full of sound and fury and signifying nothing. I do though work 7 days a week and usually put in a 14 hour week day. In terms of forestry impact on water resources much of my work was for state and or federal agencies and in retrospect I feel that those days are quite over and my contributions were appreciated to some degree. I also have no self interest in what I achieved. What does count is what we have left today and in the future. Unfortunately what we do,face is a rapidly eroding environment due to failure to practice isolation (globe trotting species and populations that will opset balances established over a long term) over harvesting of everything from fisheries (most consumed fish today on the planet Are pen raised fish, not wild caught) to forests.

My major focus right now is my mission in private resource management where I have been able to make owners happy and get families better able to thrive in their own settings. Today’s mission requires immediate attention but I will try to get back to this narrative. We do produce video of everything from logging operations where if the loggers do not respect your input you would have no access whatsoever. They appreciate our expertise and equipment and history or we would not be there. Meanwhile Nature Groups here us to,do the same for their projects. Frankly I am as happy with my current accomplishments as my often bureaucratic past. The status of world Fisheries is one of my leading concerns and our families commitment. A guy I know put out a movie titled The End Of The Line. It detailed how world Fisheries is threatened. Sailors have made epic round the world voyages, often alone. They document how much our oceans are burdened. Our human populations will get better at our lives or suffer the consequences. My output today hardly seems like enough. But it may make a couple of people really pleased. Each journey has to start with a few steps. Back again soon. I am partnered up,with families who made their mark in skidders, yarders, etc.


----------



## Albert Kiebert (Apr 6, 2018)

So, your post is to inform people here that you are interested in helping them log better or just put good info out on logging or tell us all that you have done in this field or drum up some business ??? Not sure from all the words above this post ???

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## TheHuntingRifle (Apr 6, 2018)

I am not trying to drum up business. Let’s face it , there are some terrible logging jobs being done! I have seen some that left landowners in grief for years. My comments on the above post went far beyond logging. You may have missed most of the point. If you are defensive in this dialogue I am not sure what your focus is. The information on logging has “been out there” for years. Some cannot see the writing on the wall. Those responsible ownerships and logging jobs and for that matter Sea harvesting etc., have a cumulative effect. I have got to get back to work. A word to the wise is sufficient. I also really think telling others what I have done in this field is far less important than what I have done to show what others have done. There is need for collective good work. Dwight David Eisenhower when asked what he had accomplished said he made his Farm a better place. That is what we need. I am on my final lap and it is time to pass on the baton.


----------



## TheHuntingRifle (Apr 6, 2018)

A question to Member Albert Kiebert: what kind of wooden bowl is your Avatar? Lieutenants of The Roman Army reported that a Mongol Ruler and Warrior they visited drank from a wooden cup and used a wooden bowl. They were extremely impressed with him as a leader, his mind and his leadership and his horsemanship and his leadership style. I have long admired their horses as among the toughest and most interesting mounts. Also their interest in Eagle Hunting. The movie Eagle Huntress has to me been one of the most interested modern movies on the Planet. Julius Caesar supposedly named the Atlantic Salmon. Salmo Salar The Leaper. A number of years later Roman Soldiers supposedly traveled for some time with the Nomadic Warriors of Mongol. 

So what wood is the bowl? We have turned more than a few, but not with the success you would think ever would make a leader like Genghis Kahn use a bowl we made!


----------



## justallan (Apr 6, 2018)

@TheHuntingRifle, sorry if I sounded rude to you, but that's kind of how you're coming across. You want to jump on here, make a comment or so, tell us your achievements and just leave everyone hanging wondering what the point of the post is.
As I stated earlier, I am interested in a discussion with different folks opinions on how things are done, how things have progressed and what we as a world can do to make it better for everyone, but with your own words I'm not entirely sure that you do. QUOTE, "A lot of Internet exchange is nothing more than shallow, poorly thought out and basically worthless drivel". That's half the people here, me especially!
Can you PLEASE at the very least be more specific on what you are trying to say, so folks can actually respond?
Lets do this, are you actually looking for other folks opinion even?
Okay, your turn.....

Reactions: Like 2 | Thank You! 1 | Agree 2


----------



## TheHuntingRifle (Apr 6, 2018)

My comment on Internet exchange is not directed towards this site at all. But it is the assessment of many towards various comments usually on politics. If I thought I was on such a site Iwould leave and not return to add fuel to the fire. I was invited to add something to this site, not to interfere. The reason I put in an introduction was interest in wood work. I have posted far more than usual. I usually post no photos and this has been the exception. Partly because there was fewer barriers to slightly higher res images and partly as I have followed some pursuits for a lifetime. The Hunting Rifle title is from a book sent to me by the author when I got drafted by the USA. The history of logging and land use is described in many books. Aldo Leupold and allowable cuts on US Forest Service Lands. Etc. I have walked thousands of acres of timber, some preserved wilderness, others heavily logged over. Same with comsport boats to Russian Trawlers. I make it a practice to read others accounts. Not all writing is accurate, not all opinions are appreciated. As to being specific I think some topics can be painted with a wide brush. That is a quote. But it seems worth mentioning here.


----------



## justallan (Apr 6, 2018)

My best advice at this point in the game is think about getting a puppy.
You can talk to it all day, you don't have to make a bit of friggin' sense and they will still adore you.

Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## TheHuntingRifle (Apr 6, 2018)

My advice to you is get someone to help you understand life.


----------



## justallan (Apr 6, 2018)

Sir, my apologies for being rude.
Please don't think everyone here is bad because of my words. There are some great folks on this site with many great skills to share and probably some that understand your posts perfectly.
Have a great evening.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Mike1950 (Apr 6, 2018)

some of us worked in the top end of industries- some the bottom- Your generalized condemnation of most logging operations is probably hard for you to see how folks closer to the bottom of the food chain take as a might bit uppity... Lots of logging operations probably could have gone differently in the last hundred yrs, but then again we needed houses and jobs. We in america probably have more land set aside than most countries- hell find a virgin forest in europe. Your posts are on the very edge of a very liberal agenda- and this being a very NON political venue- we are not here to worry about worldwide fishstocks and how most loggers are bad. Grew up in my Beloved Idaho-logging family- probably more forest land set aside than any other state. we welcome information and new knowledge but....... have a great evening.

Reactions: Like 5


----------



## TheHuntingRifle (Apr 6, 2018)

The Wood Forum site is quite excellent. My sole reason for being here is I lead a purposefully isolated life at times. Just Allen and I do not know each other. But I am sure almost everybody here is a good guy or gal. With the possible exception of myself. I am extremely goal oriented and I would like to think the whole world better improve or be on the scrap heap of Humanity. Any exchange, even face to face has its foibles. I for some time dealt with many who did not speak my language, and that can be difficult. English was not my first language. I did graduate work in Idaho so I am pretty familiar with that setting. My agenda on logging is about as far from liberal as anyone’s. Your lines about not worrying about world fish stocks though is troubling. If I felt most loggers were bad I would not have had the place in that industry as I have had. If you think I have a liberal agenda the politicans that know me know the exact opposite.


----------



## gman2431 (Apr 6, 2018)

I did ask to read your work and am very interested in it still.... A couple links would be cool or even a "hey Google this it's my work" would suffice...

I understand you are an accomplished man and highly respect that.. On same hand, you arent the only one here with serious accomplishments, whether those people talk highly or not about them... 

WoodBarter is about sharing and helping others... People are asking you to share, and not in the terms of pictures or tales, but rather the stuff you have published to further help people learn about what you know.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## TheHuntingRifle (Apr 6, 2018)

I spent my time tonight with an Oregon timber related question. So I use put down requests for right now as some things require immediate and undivided attention. Some of the oldest landholdings have situations going on that need input, some of it my help.


----------



## Mike1950 (Apr 7, 2018)

TheHuntingRifle said:


> The Wood Forum site is quite excellent. My sole reason for being here is I lead a purposefully isolated life at times. Just Allen and I do not know each other. But I am sure almost everybody here is a good guy or gal. With the possible exception of myself. I am extremely goal oriented and I would like to think the whole world better improve or be on the scrap heap of Humanity. Any exchange, even face to face has its foibles. I for some time dealt with many who did not speak my language, and that can be difficult. English was not my first language. I did graduate work in Idaho so I am pretty familiar with that setting. My agenda on logging is about as far from liberal as anyone’s. Your lines about not worrying about world fish stocks though is troubling. If I felt most loggers were bad I would not have had the place in that industry as I have had. If you think I have a liberal agenda the politicans that know me know the exact opposite.



Sorry- I think you missed meaning of this sentence. You assumed I do not worry about bigger picture or was unaware. Research is about truth not assumptions. "and this being a very NON political venue- we are not here to worry about worldwide fishstocks and how most loggers are bad" Most of us come here to get away from world problem- Hell they will be there in 30 min when we turn the tube back on. We come here because of our mutual love of the wonderment of nature called wood. To learn how other people look at using it- find it. To trade wisdom and material. To laugh- to be lighthearted. And I am sorry but worrying about the world wide fish stocks- 1. aint included in that 2. Gets political really fast 3. Is obviously your agenda but you should not assume it is ours nor should you worry about that
. We worry about whether our finish is going to dry... And Idaho- born and raised there- gramps was a little Gypo loggers about '57 traded horse for little john deere lindeman tracked tractor. I have lived with the people- worked with them most of my live. I know doing a yr or 2 graduate work surpass's that in your mind but you should remember- I do not agree. Have a good one.

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Albert Kiebert (Apr 7, 2018)

TheHuntingRifle said:


> A question to Member Albert Kiebert: what kind of wooden bowl is your Avatar? Lieutenants of The Roman Army reported that a Mongol Ruler and Warrior they visited drank from a wooden cup and used a wooden bowl. They were extremely impressed with him as a leader, his mind and his leadership and his horsemanship and his leadership style. I have long admired their horses as among the toughest and most interesting mounts. Also their interest in Eagle Hunting. The movie Eagle Huntress has to me been one of the most interested modern movies on the Planet. Julius Caesar supposedly named the Atlantic Salmon. Salmo Salar The Leaper. A number of years later Roman Soldiers supposedly traveled for some time with the Nomadic Warriors of Mongol.
> 
> So what wood is the bowl? We have turned more than a few, but not with the success you would think ever would make a leader like Genghis Kahn use a bowl we made!



@TheHuntingRifle The piece that I currently use for my Avatar is a Platter made from Black Walnut crotch. Lots of history stuff associated with your question, thanks for all that.


----------



## TheHuntingRifle (Apr 7, 2018)

We have a Big American Walnut on our lawn on what used to be the Home Farm. I did cut some really nice Black Walnut there, but have kept the trees I used to climb in. Surprisingly those trees have not doubled in size from when I was a boy over about 75 years ago. So for right now those trees stay. We have had very mixed results with bowl making. Some Black Cherry make very nice looking bowls butbin time seem to check if not polymerized heavily. Our 1790 Farm has some nice Black Walnut and a few huge Sugar Maple. And hundreds of acres of other timber. Most wood is not made into keepsake wood products.


----------



## Eric Rorabaugh (Apr 7, 2018)

Please, I'm not wanting to get into a big argument. But @Mike1950 is right, we all come here for the love of wood working. This is our escape from the BS of life. We are here to learn, teach, throw friendly jabs at each other, etc. Politics and religion are debates, neither side will win because of individual beliefs. But @TheHuntingRifle, people have asked for a way to look at your published work because they are interested in reading it. You seem like you are dodging this request. You said in a post just a couple back that you had to go and deal with whatever but you turn around in just a little bit and post again. Just my two cents. Please enjoy your time here but we are not interested in arguing!!! Have a wonderful blessed day!!!!

Reactions: Agree 4


----------

