# Back to the Rant



## Mike1950 (Sep 24, 2015)

As we get closer to election and buried with BS and lies. Remember the socialists cannot succeed with their true Qwest as long as there are 500 million guns in populace hands. They are working on the solution for that though. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/09/2...p-to-close-over-new-regulations/?intcmp=hpbt3

FACT / thought For the day

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Great Post 1


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## TimR (Sep 24, 2015)

Total BS...one thing to make it difficult to open a gun shop, but targeting like that to make an existing one close is a pretty sad tactic. There's probably more video surveillance like that going on from outside shops than we'd think.


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## Brink (Sep 24, 2015)

I don't understand the pic. 
I understand similar sized population.
I understand the gun ownership laws.
I understand homicide rates.
If Honduras had gun ownership, less homicides, would population increase?
If Swiss citizens moved to Honduras, would they be more inclined to murder?
If Hondurans moved to Switzerland, and were forced to own guns, would homicde rates go up, and population down?
Would local diets change any of the stats?
Isn't it hot in one country, cold in the other? 
Different cultures.
Population density.
Education.
If all the Hondurans moved to Switzerland, would Swiss population double?
If all Swiss moved to Honduras, would they take their fondu pots?
How many Swiss die from disease transmitted via double dunker fondu participants?
How many Swiss die from Swiss Army knives?
Is there a Honduran army knife I can buy?
I like Swiss cheese.
I don't think I had Honduran cheese. 
Is there Honduran cheese?
If so, I'd like to try some.
What was the question?

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## Mike1950 (Sep 24, 2015)

Brink said:


> I don't understand the pic.
> I understand similar sized population.
> I understand the gun ownership laws.
> I understand homicide rates.
> ...




Sorry- My conclusion is guns do not kill people- people do.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Mike1950 (Sep 24, 2015)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_murder_rate

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## Mike1950 (Sep 24, 2015)

http://people.howstuffworks.com/strict-gun-laws-less-crime1.htm

Hell I said it was a rant..............

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## Kevin (Sep 24, 2015)

It's okay Mike it doesn't bother me - I've been called a rant all my life it.  

I think I misspelled it . . . . .

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## ripjack13 (Sep 24, 2015)

Thankfully, I moved outa Commifornia when I did. However I'm now stuck in Commiecticut....

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## Fsyxxx (Sep 24, 2015)

I'm totally gonna add to this, piss a few people off, make others think I'm a " conspiracy theorist" but wha the hell. If you don't think there is a group of corporations trying to put us under a common system notice how most countries pursue the same policies regardless of culture or politics. It doesn't matter whether they have to come from the right or the left, the end goal is still the same. If you take away the rhetoric and BS there hasn't been a hell of a lot difference in the direction of politics regardless of who is in office. Our whole system is a puppet on the right hand and a puppet on the left, the global corporations have their hand up their backside making the mouths move. If we don't realize that both parties are ought and paid for its on us. They have to demonize and criticize our guns because there are enough crazy "Texans" or whatever state you live that aren't gonna let the big boys run rough shod over us forever, without our arms we can't stand up ultimately. The peaceful deterrent that an armed populace brings to the table is what keeps the psychopaths and sociopaths in office in check. 

A few major corporations basically own all the media, if it's on the national news it's a story they want us to see. I'd bet rarely is it really " news". I could go on but I'll leave off here....

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## ripjack13 (Sep 25, 2015)




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## duncsuss (Sep 25, 2015)

Interesting, but flat out wrong. Switzerland does NOT require citizens to own guns. Look it up: LINK

Switzerland requires people serving in the military to own guns. And keep them at home for the duration of their service period. At the end of which, they must either return the gun to the military, or apply for a license to purchase it.

Yes, they have a high gun ownership percentage. They also have a high military service obligation -- nearly all men between the ages of 20 and 30 years.

Which simply is not the same as the message this image is trying to project.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## Mike1950 (Sep 25, 2015)

duncsuss said:


> Interesting, but flat out wrong. Switzerland does NOT require citizens to own guns. Look it up: LINK
> 
> Switzerland requires people serving in the military to own guns. And keep them at home for the duration of their service period. At the end of which, they must either return the gun to the military, or apply for a license to purchase it.
> 
> ...



If there is an error in statement -sorry but I think you missed the point. Switzerland is a very heavily armed country- with a very low homicide rate. Now Honduras has very strict gun ownership laws- pretty much cannot have them-thus a very low gun ownership per capita but they have the highest homicide rate in the world. Thus the point- People kill people- guns do not.............


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## Brink (Sep 25, 2015)

So, people kill people, that's sorta what homicide means. 
In the respective countries, we are assuming guns are being used in these homicides.
But are they?
Hondurans might be killing each other with brush cutters, Swiss might be tainting their fondue.
Could be "accidental falls" off those alpine cliffs, too.


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## duncsuss (Sep 25, 2015)

Mike1950 said:


> If there is an error in statement -sorry but I think you missed the point. Switzerland is a very heavily armed country- with a very low homicide rate. Now Honduras has very strict gun ownership laws- pretty much cannot have them-thus a very low gun ownership per capita but they have the highest homicide rate in the world. Thus the point- People kill people- guns do not.............


No, Mike, I didn't miss the point. I understood it perfectly -- I also understood that the image is using distortions in an attempt to make it a punchy-sounding simplistic narrative, instead of allowing it to be the complex and nuanced situation that it really is.

Do you know what the poverty rate in Switzerland is? In the Honduras? I don't know the mathematical correlation between those factors and the respective murder rates in the countries, but I'd wager it's fairly strong. How about annual chocolate consumption? Percentage of homes with a cuckoo clock? Leather pants? Some of these might be silly correlations -- but so might the gun ownership statement at the beginning of the thread. Just because something "feels like it makes sense" doesn't mean that it's correct.

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## Mike1950 (Sep 25, 2015)

duncsuss said:


> No, Mike, I didn't miss the point. I understood it perfectly -- I also understood that the image is using distortions in an attempt to make it a punchy-sounding simplistic narrative, instead of allowing it to be the complex and nuanced situation that it really is.
> 
> Do you know what the poverty rate in Switzerland is? In the Honduras? I don't know the mathematical correlation between those factors and the respective murder rates in the countries, but I'd wager it's fairly strong. How about annual chocolate consumption? Percentage of homes with a cuckoo clock? Leather pants? Some of these might be silly correlations -- but so might the gun ownership statement at the beginning of the thread. Just because something "feels like it makes sense" doesn't mean that it's correct.



So Poverty is the cause of homicide??? My point is it is not the guns, If people are going to kill each other they do not need guns.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## duncsuss (Sep 25, 2015)

Mike1950 said:


> My point is it is not the guns, If people are going to kill each other they do not need guns.



Mike, I'm more that happy to accept that is _*your*_ point -- but it's not the point of the graphic.

The graphic is attempting to make the case that putting obstacles in the path of folk who wish to own guns is going to increase the murder rate, and making gun ownership required for all citizens is going to decrease it.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## woodman6415 (Sep 25, 2015)

On a personal note ... When my wife and I met she knew right off I was a born and bred Texas redneck ... She came from one of those Yankee states ... Virginia.... I had guns .... Lots of guns ... Including my very first 22 my dad gave me at ripe old age of 10 ... By the way it was stolen with some other guns and 5 years later all recovered ... Anyway we were having our monthly talk about the wrongs in the world this past week ... Didn't take her long to get flustered at me and my hard headed ways .... Told me point blank she hated guns ... Said she wished citizens could not own guns ... My reply was ... I like my guns ... Don't hunt anymore but I'm not giving them up ... And if you think there should be a law outlawing them then I think there should be a law forcing you to buy one ... Shut her up pretty quick .... See my post about rude awaking this morning .... I think she was pretty damn glad I took the one from my nightstand when I went outside this morning ...

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Kevin (Sep 25, 2015)

I think the supposition that a higher percentage of lawful gun ownership among a population correlates to less overall crime is much more easily to support than to disprove. I also agree with you Duncan that there's many other factors which come into play, but if you remove them all, I believe the premise that an armed law-abiding society deters crime overall (and significantly) clearly wins the day, poverty or no poverty.

But that is only one reason we have the 2A - the most important reason is not PC anymore but it has been made non-PC by the very entities our guns are meant to protect us from.

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## Mike1950 (Sep 25, 2015)

duncsuss said:


> Mike, I'm more that happy to accept that is _*your*_ point -- but it's not the point of the graphic.
> 
> The graphic is attempting to make the case that putting obstacles in the path of folk who wish to own guns is going to increase the murder rate, and making gun ownership required for all citizens is going to decrease it.



Obviously we are not on the same page- but hell let's agree to disagree- I think we have already done that.

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## brown down (Sep 27, 2015)

when you look at cities or states that have very strict gun laws they have the highest rate of crime as opposed to states that actually abide by the constitution have the lowest crime why because you never know who is packing! I believe that an armed population is a safer population! criminals are going to get their guns illegally whether guns are legal for sane people or not.. not to mention that our fore fathers made the 2A for a reason. the only reason why we live free er than the rest of the world is the simple fact we have the ability to make a stand against a tyrannical government!

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## frankp (Sep 28, 2015)

While I'm all for gun ownership, if you believe we live "free(er)" than the rest of the world, you need to get out more. We are no more free than any other developed nation. The belief that we are is pure propaganda, sponsored by the same government that wants to take your gun rights away so you have no way of overthrowing them.

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## Kevin (Sep 28, 2015)

frankp said:


> if you believe we live "free(er)" than the rest of the world, you need to get out more.



Could not agree more.


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## brown down (Sep 28, 2015)

frankp said:


> While I'm all for gun ownership, if you believe we live "free(er)" than the rest of the world, you need to get out more. We are no more free than any other developed nation. The belief that we are is pure propaganda, sponsored by the same government that wants to take your gun rights away so you have no way of overthrowing them.



I get out fairly often. I went to the country store this morning to get chew! all joking aside name one CIVILIZED country that has more gun rights than we do? don't get me wrong it doesn't matter if you are registered democrat, republican or independent ALL POLITICIANS WANT OUR GUNS but at the end of the day we have the right to own them where many countries can't which makes the populous a threat to anyone in power! name a CIVILIZED country where you can own fully auto weapons or suppressed weapons? I know I can here!!!! I live in prob the most gun friendly state in the US more so than TEXAS! PA was the first state in the US to have a 2A!!!!!!!! The only thing separating us from the rest of the world is lawful gun ownership! WE have the ability to stand up to a government where people in England or Australia don't! you can't own anything the government has in any other country legally! but we can here! If I could afford a drone I would have 2 of them just to piss everyone off hahahahah


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## Kevin (Sep 28, 2015)

Jeff - I think @frankp was saying we do not have more overall freedom than some other countries - I don't think he was saying we don't have more "gun rights". It would be impossible to argue that any other country has more gun ownership rights than we do and Frank isn't a dummy - he wouldn't be caught arguing that. But I'll let him speak for himself so I tagged him. 

What I do believe is that we have more gun rights *because* we have so many guns already in private hands. By the time to Trotsky's, liberals, commies, socialists, Zionists, and pick any other ist or ism that have bought out our government - we already had millions and millions of guns in private hands. Most other countries never had a violent armed revolt like we did against England, and even the ones that have never made private gun ownership one of the foundations of their new government like we did. 

But if you want to talk about freedom in general considering economic/speech/travel etc. I don't think the USA is even in the top 10 anymore.

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## brown down (Sep 28, 2015)

The only reason I said we are free"er" then the rest of the world is the simple fact there are millions of rednecks like myself that have the ability to upthrow our government which sets us aside from the rest of the world! I agree with freedom of speech ect.. I believe the main problem with that one alone is every person in this country have a very bad case of hurtfeelyoma. WE can't do anything now a days without someone getting butt hurt but at the end of the day My 2A protects my 1A! 

I agree with you on the fact that the only reason we have gun rights in our country is based solely on the fact that there are people like us that own guns and they will never take them away from us! Mikes whole Rant was based off of states that take away lawful gun rights from sane citizens and look at their crime rates! notice how TX and PA's cities aren't even on the map as far as murder/ crime


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## Brink (Sep 28, 2015)

Which map?

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## Kevin (Sep 28, 2015)

brown down said:


> The only reason I said we are free"er" then the rest of the world is the simple fact there are millions of rednecks like myself that have the ability to upthrow our government which sets us aside from the rest of the world! I agree with freedom of speech ect.. I believe the main problem with that one alone is every person in this country have a very bad case of hurtfeelyoma. WE can't do anything now a days without someone getting butt hurt but at the end of the day My 2A protects my 1A!
> 
> I agree with you on the fact that the only reason we have gun rights in our country is based solely on the fact that there are people like us that own guns and they will never take them away from us! Mikes whole Rant was based off of states that take away lawful gun rights from sane citizens and look at their crime rates! notice how TX and PA's cities aren't even on the map as far as murder/ crime



It's two different issues. We're not freer just because we own guns. You may _feel _freer because you own them and that's great, and you may believe we will all stand up together and take our country back one day, but I don't ever see that happening. Even if it did happen it wouldn't be pretty, it wouldn't be "taking the country back", and it wouldn't be possible to guess what would come out on the other end but I bet it would be a fractured mess. 

Frank (and again correct me if I am wrong) was talking about a "freedom index " of sorts that measures overall everyday freedoms/standards of living and that has nothing to do with guns. If it did, we would rank #1 in the freedom index and there wouldn't even be a close second. The reason Frank said "..._if you believe we live "free(er)" than the rest of the world, you need to get out more."_ is because he doesn't wear blinders or simply repeat feel-good slogans like _"It may not be perfect but the US is still the freest country in the world!"_ because it simply isn't true. It doesn't make him or me or anyone else who says it a 'bad American' - it just makes us aware. 

That's not to say our guns haven't helped us hang on to the freedoms we do have to this point, but they're becoming more and more irrelevant to our freedoms the more apparent it's become that we'll never use them in a united effort to reclaim the freedoms we've already lost. I'll go so far as to say that most of the members on even this forum don't even have a clue who the enemy is (beside us) so how could we ever expect to unite against them? And if our guns are not used to stop or repeal our lost freedoms what good are they? Ducks and deer that's what.

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## brown down (Sep 28, 2015)

I def don't have blinders on, I see our gov for what it is and thats a scam. Its a sad state to say the least but I can say this my friend there are a few left that believe in what our troops have fought and died for and I am proudly one of them! Imagine what our fore fathers would have thought with our times now! a country run by lobbyist and not by the people! I am sorry but I do feel that we are freer then the rest of the world because we have guns in this country! look at how long they have been trying to disarm us! look at what hitler did with an unarmed country!!! I agree that it is impossible to overthrow any modern day government with the technology we have in place but I would rather die a free man than a slave to a dictatorship and we aren't far from that at all!


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## Kevin (Sep 28, 2015)

brown down said:


> I def don't have blinders on,



I didn't mean to infer you personally my apologies if it sounded that way. 



brown down said:


> there are a few left that believe in what our troops have fought and died for



And that is yet another topic all together and one I try to stay away from.

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## brown down (Sep 28, 2015)

no worries kevin no need to apologize my friend 
@Mike1950 started it so lets blame him

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## Mike1950 (Sep 28, 2015)

brown down said:


> no worries kevin no need to apologize my friend
> @Mike1950 started it so lets blame him


 I agree Blame that no good A$$$hat

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## Brink (Sep 28, 2015)

And I'm still looking for dang map

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## Kevin (Sep 28, 2015)



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## frankp (Sep 29, 2015)

@brown down @Kevin pretty much pegged what I meant. We all like to say we're the "free-est" but the reality is our standard of living is drastically falling. There are a lot of other places whose standard of living is improving (and already ahead of ours by all measures except possibly gun ownership). They don't NEED guns (yet) so they don't care whether they have the right to own them or not.

I wasn't trying to imply that you don't know what's up or anything like that but the real world is vastly different than the "patriotic" clap trap I hear so often everywhere these days. I've been fortunate enough to have lived in other countries and have close family members and friends that currently live in several other countries than I have lived. As a result I get to travel to a lot of vastly different places and see how the world really views the USA. I can tell you it's a vastly different picture than we view ourselves. I don't honestly think it matters too much what other citizens think of us (as much as their governments do) but, more importantly to my point, it also gives me a very different perspective than the one I grew up with of "America is the greatest".

I'm a proud gun owner. I learned from my father 35+ years ago that the government doesn't need to know what or how many guns I own. He was military his whole adult life (joined at 17) and he still felt the reason we own guns is to protect us from the government. I think most of us reading/participating in this thread recognize that but the vocal minority (they ARE a minority) don't get that and the politicians want to make sure more and more people believe that gun ownership is for crazies. That's just one more layer of us losing our standard of living/way of life/"inalienable rights".

The USA is a great country. We are far from the best these days. We have to start taking our country back if we ever want to claim that title again. Taking it back from the corporate puppets, taking it back from the rich oligarchs, taking it back from the nanny-state boneheads (that's not to say left-wingers) who think "verbal assault" is a legitimate thing, taking it back from whomever would allow us to continue losing ground.

Vote for the independents who speak as you believe. Vote for no-names and write ins. Whatever you do, though, don't vote for incumbents. That's the best way to start, assuming you don't want bloodshed. I agree with Kevin, we've passed the point where the majority will stand in arms against the government, but we have to stop them the best way we know how.

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