# Wood from Borneo



## vanbutsic (Feb 1, 2019)

A community member dropped by my office at the university the other day asking for help with wood ID. I am at a loss. Besides the pictures attached here, he provided a bit of other information

Location: Wood comes from Borneo. He claims him and a partner pulled it out of a bay on Borneo Island. He has 1000's of pounds of the stuff.
Name: He claimed the locals call it Bullion. 
Insect: He claims the insect damage is actually from when the wood was in the water, not on land. 
Smell: The wood is slightly burnt at one end. It is the smokiest smelling piece of wood I have ever been around. One small piece is stinking up my whole office. 

Many thanks for any insight you might be able to provide. 

Best,

Van

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tony (Feb 1, 2019)

@phinds


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## phinds (Feb 1, 2019)

kempas / Koompassia spp.
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/kempas.htm


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## vanbutsic (Feb 1, 2019)

Wow - Thanks for the help. It is truly appreciated.


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## phinds (Feb 1, 2019)

vanbutsic said:


> Wow - Thanks for the help. It is truly appreciated.


Something I would appreciate (but ABSOLUTELY not required) is send me the piece to add to my wood ID sample collection since it looks like it's not something the owner would need if he has a ton more of it.


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## vanbutsic (Feb 1, 2019)

I'd be happy to do so. How can I get your address.


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## phinds (Feb 1, 2019)

vanbutsic said:


> I'd be happy to do so. How can I get your address.


I'll send you a PM

HM ... you seem to have the PM capability turned off. Just go to the first site listed in my signature (Wood ID) and you'll find an email address there. Just send me an email.

I have no problem putting my info here in this post but it is against forum rules to do so.

Thanks

Paul


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## DKMD (Feb 1, 2019)

I think another post in the forum will turn on Van’s messaging privileges.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## phinds (Feb 1, 2019)

I though I could message HIM whether or not he already has messaging OK'd


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## DKMD (Feb 1, 2019)

phinds said:


> I though I could message HIM whether or not he already has messaging OK'd



You may be right... I’d start poking around the switches and levers, but nothing good comes from me farting around with that stuff.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Mr. Peet (Feb 1, 2019)

phinds said:


> kempas / Koompassia spp.
> http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/kempas.htm



I do not agree. The Kempass group has the "football" shaped looking pores, but the wood pictured appears to have smaller round pores without any 'wing' like structures.

I was leaning toward the 'Balau' group, Shorea genus, first glance, but have not given it much thought yet...


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## phinds (Feb 1, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> I do not agree. The Kempass group has the "football" shaped looking pores, but the wood pictured appears to have smaller round pores without any 'wing' like structures.
> 
> I was leaning toward the 'Balau' group, Shorea genus, first glance, but have not given it much thought yet...


Mark, the Kempass group USUALLY (*) has the lozenge shaped aliform parenchyma but not always. Check out the various pieces on my page and you'll see both. Also, the face grain is VERY like Koopmpassia spp.

* Make that ALMOST ALWAYS, not just usually. Anyway, if he sends me the piece, we'll be able to take a closer look


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## phinds (Feb 1, 2019)

@Mr. Peet If you look on the NCSU site, you'll see several (more than on my site) Koopmpassia spp. without the lozenge shaped winged aliform parenchyma (the "footballs")


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## FLQuacker (Feb 1, 2019)

@Mr. Peet

Well at least you didn't get a "not a chance in hell" from him.....

Reactions: Funny 1


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## phinds (Feb 1, 2019)

FLQuacker said:


> @Mr. Peet
> 
> Well at least you didn't get a "not a chance in hell" from him.....


I would never say that to Mark. He's a LOT bigger than I am

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Mr. Peet (Feb 2, 2019)

phinds said:


> @Mr. Peet If you look on the NCSU site, you'll see several (more than on my site) Koopmpassia spp. without the lozenge shaped winged aliform parenchyma (the "footballs")



Ok, NCSU had 4 pages for the Koompassia genus. Only one picture seemed to lack the winged aliform, however if had the aliform thickening balanced around the pore opening. All of the pictures on the NCSU site had some level of banding, something I do not see in the unknown above. All of the Koompassia species are described as coarse / rough wood requiring additional effort in finishing. The wood above appears to have smaller pores, tighter grain that might even polish with just sanding to a smooth finish.

Bullion is a common name for several species that are tough. I had mentioned Balua, as there are a good dozen+ Shorea species there. That is as far as I had taken it in my thought process. Had you not given an origin, my first thought would have been Ipe...


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## phinds (Feb 2, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> Ok, NCSU had 4 pages for the Koompassia genus. Only one picture seemed to lack the winged aliform, however if had the aliform thickening balanced around the pore opening. All of the pictures on the NCSU site had some level of banding, something I do not see in the unknown above. All of the Koompassia species are described as coarse / rough wood requiring additional effort in finishing. The wood above appears to have smaller pores, tighter grain that might even polish with just sanding to a smooth finish.
> 
> Bullion is a common name for several species that are tough. I had mentioned Balua, as there are a good dozen+ Shorea species there. That is as far as I had taken it in my thought process. Had you not given an origin, my first thought would have been Ipe...


Well, you know as much about this stuff as I do, probably more, so your insistence that it's not Koompassia is persuasive. I do disagree about this mystery wood not being rough/coarse. The face grain looks pretty coarse to me.

@vanbutsic you're going to HAVE to send me the piece now  Mark and I almost never disagree on wood ID so I'm really curious about this piece.


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## CWS (Feb 2, 2019)

Being a redneck, I don't understand a word they said.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 4


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## Mr. Peet (Feb 2, 2019)

CWS said:


> Being a redneck, I don't understand a word they said.



"M R 2 ducks". "Na, na M r knot"

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mr. Peet (Feb 2, 2019)

So, Bullion is often a slang for money, or money tree. _Eusideroxylon zwageri _is called Belian and sometimes called Bullion because of high value. It is supposed to be termite resistive, but maybe not torpedo borer resistive. However, it has high tyloses levels.

_Koompasia excelsa _is also called Bullion, money tree as in honey tree or Tualang. This is the tree Paul was talking of.

"oil palm" is also called money tree and destroying the entire region as European bio-fuel regulations drive deforestation of third world countries and inadvertently support child labor. We know this "tree" is wrong.

So only 750 trees to look at...

Reactions: Informative 2


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## vanbutsic (Feb 2, 2019)

Hello Phinds,

I sent you an email via the link you suggested. If you do not receive it, just google my username, and I will come up. I work for UC Cooperative Extension at Berkeley. Feel free to send me your contact information and I'll get the wood in the mail ASAP. 

Van

Reactions: Great Post 1


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## phinds (Feb 3, 2019)

vanbutsic said:


> Hello Phinds,
> 
> I sent you an email via the link you suggested. If you do not receive it, just google my username, and I will come up. I work for UC Cooperative Extension at Berkeley. Feel free to send me your contact information and I'll get the wood in the mail ASAP.
> 
> Van


Got it. Thanks.

@Mr. Peet, Van is going to send me the piece so we'll be able to figure this out, probably.


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## Mr. Peet (Feb 3, 2019)

phinds said:


> Got it. Thanks.
> 
> @Mr. Peet, Van is going to send me the piece so we'll be able to figure this out, probably.



I made it through 14 genera with a maybe on _Hopea_, then realized had another 40 genera to go. So I quit. Look forward to seeing it in hand or at least your findings when you get it.


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## Karl_TN (Feb 6, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> "oil palm" is also called money tree and destroying the entire region as European bio-fuel regulations drive deforestation of third world countries and inadvertently support child labor. ...



Mark, I'd like to learn more about this connection with the European bio-fuel regulations. Do have any links explaining this?


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## Mr. Peet (Feb 6, 2019)

Karl_TN said:


> Mark, I'd like to learn more about this connection with the European bio-fuel regulations. Do have any links explaining this?



https://gowood.blogspot.com/2019/01/the-tangled-web-of-palm-oil-production.html

You'll love to see this, then hate that it happens...

Reactions: Like 1 | Thank You! 1


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## phinds (Mar 18, 2019)

@vanbutsic I got the piece. Thanks. May be a few days before I get it processed but I'll post pics and conclusions when I do


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## phinds (Mar 25, 2019)

OK, I've started on it. All I know so far is that it is definitely not kempas.

Here's the workup and it has a link to additional information

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/mystery.htm#210

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 25, 2019)

What color is the sawdust? Black-light reaction?

Are the cracks from heat,or, were there when received? If there, shake like or just checking from drying?

The white in the pores, latex like? Tylosis? Does it bleed / leach color with water, or rubbing alcohol? Does acetone eat the white in the pores? Is Burger King going bankrupt?

Reactions: Funny 4


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## DKMD (Mar 25, 2019)

@phinds 

Any chance 208 on your mystery page is Chinese pistache? I don’t think the end grains match, but the face grain coloring looks about right?


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## phinds (Mar 25, 2019)

DKMD said:


> @phinds
> 
> Any chance 208 on your mystery page is Chinese pistache? I don’t think the end grains match, but the face grain coloring looks about right?


Doesn't seem at all likely since M208 has very heavy banded parenchyma and pistachio does not

Reactions: Like 1


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## phinds (Mar 25, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> What color is the sawdust?


Didn't notice


> Black-light reaction?


haven't tested



> Are the cracks from heat,or, were there when received? If there, shake like or just checking from drying?


artifact of the end grain sanding. Very common. I could go a lot slower and avoid these but it would take freekin' forever.



> The white in the pores, latex like?


can't tell


> Tylosis?


doesn't seem to be, just dust.


> Does it bleed / leach color with water, or rubbing alcohol?


Haven't tried to get it drunk


> Does acetone eat the white in the pores?


Haven't tried and don't plan to. I never torture my wood samples


> Is Burger King going bankrupt?


Don't know, don't care; I'm a McDonald's guy.

Reactions: Like 2 | Thank You! 1 | Funny 1


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## phinds (Mar 26, 2019)

Well, no joy. I've compared it to over 1,000 diffuse porous pics and no luck. I checked out the few grainy-face-grain woods that I could think of and no joy there either.

So ... mystery wood indeed.


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 29, 2019)

phinds said:


> Well, no joy. I've compared it to over 1,000 diffuse porous pics and no luck. I checked out the few grainy-face-grain woods that I could think of and no joy there either.
> 
> So ... mystery wood indeed.



When your up for it, check with black light. It covers two genera of Borneo trees. The sawdust color was to compare to the Ipe group, as well as the latex comment (Lapacho). The torpedo borer action is also like Ipe, good on land, not in water.

I think it might be the same as Mystery Wood #161....

@vanbutsic 

I just re-read this thread. I may have read into it a bit. The piece you showed was clearly milled, dimensional. They state 1,000's of pounds pulled from the bay. Was it logs pulled or lumber?

I wondered if it was a boardwalk at one time, like those in New Jersey, and was destroyed by storm, sank to be salvage harvested later.


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## phinds (Mar 29, 2019)

@Mr. Peet there is no fluorescence, and I ruled out ipe early on (end grain clearly different), and m161 is also readily ruled out by end grain.


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 30, 2019)

phinds said:


> @Mr. Peet there is no fluorescence, and I ruled out ipe early on (end grain clearly different), and m161 is also readily ruled out by end grain.



Thanks Paul, Yeah just did the side by side of 161, it has smaller pores with no confluence. Similar, but that's it. Have a great morning.


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## vanbutsic (Apr 9, 2019)

Hello All,

I just wanted to thank you all for your efforts, they are greatly appreciated. It sounds like this is a difficult piece. Let me know if you more samples, background would help. I can put you in touch with the fellow who brought the wood in. 

Best,

van


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## Mr. Peet (Apr 9, 2019)

vanbutsic said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I just wanted to thank you all for your efforts, they are greatly appreciated. It sounds like this is a difficult piece. Let me know if you more samples, background would help. I can put you in touch with the fellow who brought the wood in.
> 
> ...



Van, if you could respond to my question from March 29, did they pull logs or lumber from the bay...?...


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## vanbutsic (Apr 10, 2019)

Here is more information from the wood owner I hope this helps:

Let me tell you more about this wood that might help: I became aware of it while living in Sandakan bay in north-east Sabah in 1998, where I had come for repairs to my traditional Chinese junk, Long Hai, as I was living in the central Philippines where the forests had been decimated from over harvesting in the past century or so and it is now illegal to cut a native tree without permission(a policy that should exist in Sabah and the rest of the island of Borneo as oil-palm plantations decimate whats left of its forests). It's not a boat building wood, but a man who was milling a log of Kapur, Dryobalanops spp. , for me told me of a wood that was quite rare and illegal to harvest but that he could get for me as he was aware of logs being "harvested" from the bottom of the bay where, over the centuries of harvesting and shipping it to China to be used in Chinese black-wood furniture, logs that fell overboard in loading had sunk. This is a very dense wood and does not float. He got ahold of a couple of these logs and milled them for me with his chainsaw. I also had a bit of trouble loading it on my boat and had to have a couple of divers recover a slab of it for me. I know this wood as being very black but the sawdust from the milling was a bright yellowish golden color; thus the common local name I heard from several people, bullion. The wood looked this golden color for a while but it got darker with age and eventually turns blackish. Im not sure this wasn't from the salt water it was in several times or the fact that it has been outside much of the time I've had it. The other memory of the milling operation was the strong and distinctive odor.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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