# ...grrr... doing something wrong



## TXMoon (Aug 11, 2019)

Maybe I am too heavy handed with the soft woods? Everything was going great, I had the shape I liked, was very happy with the bead foot and rim. I started to hollow it out and it flipped off the lathe and bounced across the floor. I had a big pile of shavings there yesterday before I swept them all up. After lunch I am going to put it back on the... can't think of what you call it, the plate with the holes for screws, and turn off the foot and make another mortise and see if I can finish it. I saw more cracks in the wood (you can see it in the second image) so I am not too hopeful it's going to stay in one piece.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Steve in VA (Aug 11, 2019)

Sorry to see this! Hopefully it just bounced on the lathe and floor, and not your chest. 

I think you're referring to a faceplate? Good luck as it's a nice looking piece!

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## Tony (Aug 11, 2019)

What speed were you turning at? Sounds like you just had a catch and pulled it out of the chuck. Hope you're okay, that's the main thing! Tony

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## TimR (Aug 11, 2019)

Were you chucking on the inside of the base? If so, looks like a bit too much pressure. I don’t like inside chucking for that reason, and certainly not for bowls...less forces generally using that technique with shallower turnings like platters.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## TXMoon (Aug 11, 2019)

Tony said:


> What speed were you turning at? Sounds like you just had a catch and pulled it out of the chuck. Hope you're okay, that's the main thing! Tony


Around 900, just under 1000. I was standing to the side so I was in no danger of being hit.


----------



## TXMoon (Aug 11, 2019)

It happened again. Was hollowing out the inside and boom, popped off the chuck. At this rate I am going to have a lot of aromatic fire wood this Winter.


----------



## rocky1 (Aug 11, 2019)

Chucking inside, compounded by soft wood, with no tailstock support. Minor catch is all it takes and it blows out. 

Plate with all the holes for screws is maybe referring to Jacobs Chuck, if you were trying to turn another mortise or tenon on the bottom.


----------



## FranklinWorkshops (Aug 11, 2019)

@Eric Rorabaugh has a lot of aromatic cedar. He'll be glad to supply it, I'm sure.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## TXMoon (Aug 11, 2019)

rocky1 said:


> Chucking inside, compounded by soft wood, with no tailstock support. Minor catch is all it takes and it blows out.
> 
> Plate with all the holes for screws is maybe referring to Jacobs Chuck, if you were trying to turn another mortise or tenon on the bottom.


I tried a tenon on another piece and it ripped off as well.


----------



## rocky1 (Aug 11, 2019)

Are you going to SWAT? If so, take what's left of that with you and go see @Nubsnstubs and let him show you a trick or two using his tailstock steady.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Eric Rorabaugh (Aug 11, 2019)

I can send you more. Just keep practicing. With cedar being so soft, you don't want a lot of pressure on the tenon. If you were chucked on the inside, very little pressure and need tailstock support. Chuck from the outside and go slow speed snd light cuts with sharp tools.

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Informative 1


----------



## rocky1 (Aug 11, 2019)

Eric Rorabaugh said:


> I can send you more. Just keep practicing. With cedar being so soft, you don't want a lot of pressure on the tenon. If you were chucked on the inside, very little pressure and need tailstock support. Chuck from the outside and go slow speed snd light cuts with sharp tools. AND, TAILSTOCK SUPPORT.


----------



## TXMoon (Aug 11, 2019)

Eric Rorabaugh said:


> I can send you more. Just keep practicing. With cedar being so soft, you don't want a lot of pressure on the tenon. If you were chucked on the inside, very little pressure and need tailstock support. Chuck from the outside and go slow speed snd light cuts with sharp tools.


I'll keep at it. The carbide tools have new blades on them. I should have rotated the round scraper for the inside. I'll just take deep breaths and shallow cuts.


----------



## rocky1 (Aug 11, 2019)

Carbides can be a tad aggressive of softer woods, to suit my taste. On a softer wood, you'd probably do better with a regular old round nosed scraper inside the bowl.


----------



## TXMoon (Aug 11, 2019)

rocky1 said:


> Carbides can be a tad aggressive of softer woods, to suit my taste. On a softer wood, you'd probably do better with a regular old round nosed scraper inside the bowl.


Oh I have one of those. I am trying to learn how to use one. I did well on the outside but didn't use it on the inside.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Tony (Aug 11, 2019)

Kevin, I was at the Habitat for Humanity on Walzem right up the road from my house yesterday and they have 4" x 4" x 8' cedar pieces for $8 each. Grab you some and play with those.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## TXMoon (Aug 11, 2019)

Tony said:


> Kevin, I was at the Habitat for Humanity on Walzem right up the road from my house yesterday and they have 4" x 4" x 8' cedar pieces for $8 each. Grab you some and play with those.


Thank you, I'll swing by and get some


----------



## Tony (Aug 11, 2019)

TXMoon said:


> Thank you, I'll swing by and get some



Let me know when you go, maybe me can meet up.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## duncsuss (Aug 11, 2019)

If you are going to expand your chuck jaws into a recess, you need a ring of solid wood at least 1" wide around the recess. (Your pix look like you have maybe a quarter inch, but that could be my eyes.) For soft woods like cedar, I'd go even wider than that.

The alternative is, as folks have said, to clamp around a tenon (sometimes called a spigot) - but what they didn't tell you is that these have to be large enough that they don't simply snap off. If you clamp the chuck jaws too tight, you can easily crush cedar. After fighting it a number of times, I now use my 4" chuck jaws clamping on a tenon, or my 3" jaws expanding into a recess that has 2" or more solid wood all around it.

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Informative 2


----------



## TXMoon (Aug 11, 2019)

duncsuss said:


> If you are going to expand your chuck jaws into a recess, you need a ring of solid wood at least 1" wide around the recess. (Your pix look like you have maybe a quarter inch, but that could be my eyes.) For soft woods like cedar, I'd go even wider than that.
> 
> The alternative is, as folks have said, to clamp around a tenon (sometimes called a spigot) - but what they didn't tell you is that these have to be large enough that they don't simply snap off. If you clamp the chuck jaws too tight, you can easily crush cedar. After fighting it a number of times, I now use my 4" chuck jaws clamping on a tenon, or my 3" jaws expanding into a recess that has 2" or more solid wood all around it.


You're right. It was 1/4", and since the bowl is still solid I can take that down again and try a tenon. I'll throw the "base is 1/3 the diameter of the rim" thing out the window and just try to finish the bowl.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Nubsnstubs (Aug 11, 2019)

TXMoon said:


> It happened again. Was hollowing out the inside and boom, popped off the chuck. At this rate I am going to have a lot of aromatic fire wood this Winter.
> View attachment 170118


Kevin, a couple things I've learned since the appearance of chucks. Forget what the manufacturers say on how to use their stuff. Their instructions are guidelines on where to start. I've always read that on compression, a tenon should be made the size where the chuck jaws come together and form a circle. On a Nova G3, that makes the tenon about 13/16-7/8". I did that for about a year and lost about 1 in 12 pieces to tenon breakage. That was from 2010 to 2011. I finally decided that was erroneous information as I've always heard the more surface area you have have, the more security you will achieve. I also believe that note when the jaws are wide open the points formed by the jaw splits are not a good option for holding. My thoughts are bullstuff. 

I started making all my tenons 2 1/4" tenons for my G3 as that's all I had for the next 5 years turning over 500+ pieces. Never lost a piece like I was doing before. Did lose one mesquite burl where I made the tenon, but everyone should know that burls are notorious for separating at the worst possible times. 

I do make a recess every now and then, but inside that recess is a tenon that I chuck onto. Only once have I ever used a recess. I don't see any advantage. 

That last picture shows a very nice crack the should come apart when you've reached a thickness of 1/2" and under. Put it aside until you have the ability to secure the crack. You can save that blank by using dowels to secure it. It's not nearly a hard as doing a butterfly, but just as secure. I believe I have a video on youtube. My channel is Nubsnstubs. Hunt for it, and I guarantee you will be bored, but maybe you can glean something from it. Skipping through some videos is a plus. 

Like Rocky said, bring it and any others you might be having problems with to Waco and someone on this site attending should be able to assist you in avoiding some of the things you are currently experiencing. If the SWAT rules allow, you can get hands instruction by any one of us using my lathe. If you have any cedar boards, I'll make you some 3/8" dowels if you cut some into strips 7/16" square at least 24" long.

This is more long winded than I wanted to be, but someone got me started. .......... Jerry (in Tucson) .

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## TXMoon (Aug 11, 2019)

Interesting. I have had good luck up 'till now with the recess. I have one shallow "bowl" with a tenon but don't have a way to turn it off. I am bringing that to Wacko to see the rig that can help remove it. I start with the chuck closed, 2" dia, and make the recess deep enough that it fits about half way up the chuck then tighten it down. 

I'll keep what you have in mind about the dowels and I'll check out your videos. I have seen some nice bowls using dowels and butterflies and I am not ready to try making a butterfly let alone a matching shaped hole in the bowl.


----------



## Nubsnstubs (Aug 11, 2019)

TXMoon said:


> Interesting. I have had good luck up 'till now with the recess. I have one shallow "bowl" with a tenon but don't have a way to turn it off. I am bringing that to Wacko to see the rig that can help remove it. I start with the chuck closed, 2" dia, and make the recess deep enough that it fits about half way up the chuck then tighten it down.
> 
> I'll keep what you have in mind about the dowels and I'll check out your videos. I have seen some nice bowls using dowels and butterflies and_* I am not ready to try making a butterfly let alone a matching shaped hole in the bowl*_.


Smart man, Kevin. There's hope for you now. 

Looking forward to meeting you................... Jerry (in Tucson)

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## Nubsnstubs (Aug 11, 2019)

For those of you who might bring a piece to Waco for tenon removal, before you get there, glue up 2 pieces of 3/4" mdf that matches the swing on your lathe. A 12" swing, make a 12" square. I'll do the rest. I'll set up something to hold the piece to remove the tenon. ............... Jerry (in Tucson)


----------



## David Hill (Aug 11, 2019)

@TXMoon — You’re not the only one to learn the “easy” lessons on using the chuck in expansion mode. 1 inch is good advice for supporting the wood, can be a little less on harder woods without cracks.
I have some Cedar logs (10-12 or so in. diameter) you can have— can’t use it anymore due to allergic reactions. Can get pics if you want.
Then once you see his Tailstock Steady you’ll have it on your short list—- just sayin’. 
I don’t turn without it now.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## Mike Mills (Aug 11, 2019)

JMO but cedar always seems to split very easily whether tenon or recess.
I agree with others that you need an inch of wood surrounding the recess. With 2" jaws there is three times the amount of wood to break away with a recess compared to a tenon. I almost always use a recess with smaller jaws like the 2".
I noticed you did not leave a nipple in the recess to re-center when you clean up the foot? 
You can reshape the base (to 1/3 diameter?) on cleanup. Makes no difference if you enlarge the recess from the inside or make it smaller from the outside.
A simple friction drive to clean up or reshape the bottom works best for me. I did invest in a small jap razor saw to quickly remove the nipple but even that is not necessary.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## DKMD (Aug 12, 2019)

Too bad... looks like a great shape!

Cedar is a tough wood for me to turn, so I probably wouldn’t choose it to learn on if you’ve got other options.

I learned with tenons instead of recesses, so I’m a bit biased toward tenons. Either will work and either can fail... especially with really soft woods.

Just keep plugging away... you’re doing great!

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## William Tanner (Aug 12, 2019)

Kevin, most of us have probably chased down a runaway bowl or two. Lots of good tips have been made here. I’ve almost entirely gone away from using a recess and have gone to a tenon. I use dovetail jaws and make sure they make proper contact with the work. If the jaws are properly a fixed to the tenon and you make light cuts you should do fine.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Auburnboy (Aug 17, 2019)

Cedar is way too soft to use a recess to chuck a bowl this size. Use a larger tenon next time and turn with a very light touch. Then reverseit and use a jam chuck to finish the bottom.. Better yet, don't b other to turn cedar - it is oily anyway.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------

