# Importing African Wood's



## Flacer22 (Jun 25, 2020)

I didn't wanna hijacks Spencers thread but since I kinda let cat out of the bag I have been working for 6+ months on importing a container of wood from Cameroon. My container is supposed to have Bubinga Wenge Zerbawood Paduke Doussie and Gaboon Ebony. 

I have been talking to my contact in Africa for 3 years now so this is something I've been working towards for quite some time. So although the chances of being scammed are high I feel pretty confident I'm in good hands atm.

To clear up some rumors and mis understandings atm yes Ebony Doussie and bubinga are on cities level 2 HOWEVER this absolutely does NOT mean they can't be importanted. I already have all the permits and paperwork from the US customs department to import exotic endangered species. And believe it or not getting all that paperwork to do that is actually not that hard. The scary and hard part is finding someone over seas who can like wise get the right paperwork to GIVE to me to be able to legally Import it. The reason this is difficult is most governments tax the living hell out of that paper work thus people try to avoid paying it so it's considered illegal. 

I believe I have all this figured out and baring some major problems I should have a container load here in the US sometime in October. Still alot of steps to go and alot of things to go wrong but my contact and I are both working though them to make this a legal and good transaction. 

In mean time here are some more pics from the jungles of Cameroon.

Reactions: Like 2 | Great Post 1 | Way Cool 8


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## ripjack13 (Jun 25, 2020)

Mmm....I can smell the sawdust from here!


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## barry richardson (Jun 26, 2020)

Hope it works out for you man, sounds awesome!

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 2


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## Nature Man (Jun 26, 2020)

If everything goes well, I'm sure you will have WB folks lined up to buy some of your imported African woods! Chuck

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Arn213 (Jun 26, 2020)

My understanding is if this Bubinga tree was cut after January 2, 2017- you will not be able to import it legally. The only way you can import it legally is if it was cut before January 2, 2017. My understanding is a valid CITES permit and certificate is required for commercial trade. You might want to check with US F&WLS to make sure you have all the proper legal paperwork.


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## Flacer22 (Jun 26, 2020)

Not ture cites 2 means it's under restrictions. So basically if u want to import lumber into the US it's really not that hard you get a fright broker who lines up the containers and all associated customs and duty's and you pay for you lumber pay your fright broker and boom your container is on its way to the US that's literally it aside from having a PPQ 604 to import lumber that's all there is to it. Nothing more.

Now cites adds a whole.new level to this. You have what's called cites level 1 that means it's international agreed upon the species is in good supply and not threated but one country in particular says that species is threated there so they want it cites listed so it becomes cites level 3 when that happens now anyone that moves it has to prove that it didn't come from said country that it's threatened in. To prove this Majority if people have what's called a certificate of origin to prove that. A really good example of a cites level 3 is lebonon cedar most places it's plentiful except lebonon so everyone any where has to prove its not from there.

Cites level 2 now becomes that all countrys that produce the species agree it is threated and want limits on it. Now the fun starts to import it it must go though a serious look over by the country it's coming into and county it's going out of. So we here in the US have to follow all the rules unlike in China where the rules simply don't get followed at all. But to get it in here you must have one the proper documentation here in the states whitch is several USDA PPQ permits and Cites permits. They are as I said not to hard to get basically if u have a business and good credit you can get these permits. I already have them. Now u get a fright broker the broker I am using specialize in importing exotics I'm also working closely with another major company I deal with that has been importing exotics for years. The freight forwarder here contacts the fright forwarder of my African contact and they exchange our contracts. Once all of this is complete the lumber is declared and gone though at the port of shipment. Every single piece has to be stamped and declared in a packing list. And every board has to be species stamped. Once that's all done the country its leaving has to grant a 1909 Lacey act approval basically saying they are aware that a cites level 2 species in in the container and are allowing it to be exported (this is where the huge taxes come Into play) there also has to be a formal country of origin approved and a photsanitay approved. All this paperwork then gets sent to my freight forwarder who has it sent to the USDA for approval once it is approved by them and they are aware a container is coming to USA with cites species in it then it can ship. Once it gets here it will be completely inspected before I can have it. I also have to pay them to inspect it trust me not freaking cheap. Once it's clear I will own it.

So looooong story there but overall yes you still can import these species Into the US but the tricky part is that country's government has to approve of it to be able to ship it and that is often what separates the illegal from the good and with the tax's for this being extremely expensive it's hard to find someone in these countries that can actually get the tax's paid to ship.

I've had tons and tons of conversations with my fright forwarder about making sure it's all legal and ive talked to the USDA and Us customs about rules and possible fines associated with poorly pack containers and everything and it can get expensive really fast if things go wrong.

Here is a container load of cocobolo cants that the company I'm working with just imported from Nicaragua.




Arn213 said:


> My understanding is if this Bubinga tree was cut after January 2, 2017- you will not be able to import it legally. The only way you can import it legally is if it was cut before January 2, 2017. My understanding is a valid CITES permit and certificate is required for commercial trade. You might want to check with US F&WLS to make sure you have all the proper legal paperwork.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 2


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## Don Van Dyne (Jun 26, 2020)

Sounds like you been working hard on this! Good luck! I’ll be waiting anxiously to see how it works out....

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gdurfey (Jun 26, 2020)

Best wishes Andy. I can't even imagine the juggling act this has to be and the worry that it gets here and something has gone on. On the other hand, the business opportunity you have is incredible. Please keep us informed; praying for success.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Arn213 (Jun 26, 2020)

I understand that you are going through the proper channels and following the law to export these logs. Somethings just doesn’t “ring right” at the other side of the spectrum. I still believe that this Bubinga should never have been granted a permit based on the date that species was restricted by CITES which was over 2 years ago. If this majestic Bubinga tree was cut 6 months ago, that has surpassed the legal date of harvesting! You are basically saying as long the taxes are paid at the other continent (plus your other end lining up), their government will award it an export certificate. Seems like their is a loop hole and something is not right- CITES restriction dates are set to curb illegal logging. Those dates mean something and they are there for a reason to prevent illegal logging and protect the species from being endangered.

I personally have not purchased any woods coming from Africa due to over logging and because of what it is going there economically and politically (can’t talk about it because it is political).

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Brandon Sloan (Jun 26, 2020)

I’ve been to a few third world countries while in the army. It really changes your outlook when it comes to exploiting them for your own personal gain. They are starting to refer to these trees as blood timbers.

If you proceed, I encourage you to book a flight to Cameroon and do your business in person. The chances you are being scammed are highly likely. I’ve seen one of those images before. The Chinese have that black market cornered. Do yourself a favor and stay domestic.


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## Flacer22 (Jun 26, 2020)

I've been to 3rd world country's as well and done mission work. Never been to Africa but I understand this. I'm also buying these from an African company. What's worse letting the Chinese control and exploit the market or pay the Africans for there timber???? Cites was put into place to stop the illegal over harvesting it doesn't mean it can't be harvested it's meant to stop the over harvesting and put the money back Into the locals hands for there products. 
I appreciate all the concern but I've done my homework I'm not exploiting anyone I'm doing the exact same things many many other companies are doing right here in the US and it's legally select cut and harvested. And the way my contracts and credit lines are drawn up if there is anything that does not have the proper documentation or is not legal the entire transaction geta shut down completely so this is not blood wood you speak of. 

I'm not going to argue morals of logging I am a logger I run a logging company and cut down thousands of trees a year here in the states and deal with all kinds of issues it's part of it. 

This post was simply to show what I was working on and not hijack someone else post with questions. I'm well aware what I'm doing is quite unique and difficult if it was easy every one would do it and it wouldn't be all that Interesting I've spent hundreds of hours on the phone and talking with people who import and export logs and lumber as well as talking to all kinds of people and things in Africa. I'm also aware of the financial risks and understand them fully it's a decision Ive made. 



Brandon Sloan said:


> I’ve been to a few third world countries while in the army. It really changes your outlook when it comes to exploiting them for your own personal gain. They are starting to refer to these trees as blood timbers.
> 
> If you proceed, I encourage you to book a flight to Cameroon and do your business in person. The chances you are being scammed are highly likely. I’ve seen one of those images before. The Chinese have that black market cornered. Do yourself a favor and stay domestic.
> 
> View attachment 189507

Reactions: Like 3


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## Arn213 (Jun 26, 2020)

_^_A lot of the bigger vendors on line that exports logs and slabs tend to establish a relationship in the country that they export from- which means they go there and check the source. Please look at Taylor Guitars when you get a chance and they have invested a great deal in Africa as they source ebony there. Madagascar is full or reports of illegal logging, so every rosewood (dalbergia) and a specific ebony is restricted under CITES.



Flacer22 said:


> Cites was put into place to stop the illegal over harvesting it doesn't mean it can't be harvested it's meant to stop the over harvesting and put the money back Into the locals hands for there products.



Yes, CITES restrictions are put in place to deter illegal logging and illegally exporting those logs that does not adhere to the appendices restriction dates. Actually, you are completing wrong on this- completely wrong. You clearly don’t have a clear understanding of what protecting endangered species mean- that means the harvesting stops when a “specific date“ is imposed by CITES on a specific species.  That is a fact and you can call American Fish and Wildlife Service and they will confirm what you are saying is incorrect. You should have their info. because you should be dealing with them with this container of yours that has CITES restricted species.

The only other way you can legally get a CITES permit is if the wood was cut before the restricted date listed on the Appendices.
But, any ethical and intelligent person knows that those dates can easily be “fudged” and back dated on such logs that was harvested after the restriction date.

PSA:

“Unless you have the correct CITES documentation, you should not:


enter into contracts over specimens
make payments for their purchase
ship specimens“

Photo #9 is the biggest red flag to me on your post #1. That species of wood which is easily recognizable because of the color of heartwood was put into restriction back in 2011, appendix 2. Guess what, if the photo’s was taken 6 months ago and those were cut during the same time, it would be 9 years too late for it to receive and get an approved CITES permit because it is now 2020.

Please do your due diligence as there are severe fines and at least 7 years of imprisonment if you do not have a valid certificate or permit. A lot of ethical luthiers will ask you for provenance and all the legal paper work they will require to get a CITES passport so their instrument can be sold out of the country and orchestral musicians will need that passport that does work outside of the country. You see, it is not you that are the only one effected, everyone that you sell the wood to like luthiers, woodworkers, craftsman, designer, artist, furniture maker, etc., will be linked to you once you sell this wood commercially as a “raw form or in turn becomes a finished product“. If you have a permit to get it exported, they will also ask you (those who have bought from you) for documentation so they can sell their wood outside of the country. 

PS- imagine this scenario........ a luthier made a Bubinga guitar out of your wood and it was sold to a customer that lives in Europe. Ships the wood and it gets held in customs- guess what? Expect the luthier to call you and will ask to provide documents that states the wood was legally harvested by you so the guitar can be released by custom. If proper documentation is not provided, customs gets custody of the guitar and they will do whatever with it- they might donate it to a school or set it on fire. Meanwhile, your luthier is pissed- not at customs, but at you. He just lost a guitar and a sale (requiring a refund back to the customer). What do you think he will do?


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## Flacer22 (Jun 26, 2020)

What wood is this in pic no.9???? 



Arn213 said:


> Photo #9 is the biggest red flag to me on your post #1. That species of wood which is easily recognizable because of the color of heartwood was put into restriction back in 2011, appendix 2. Guess what, if the photo’s was taken 6 months ago and those were cut during the same time, it would be 9 years too late for it to receive and get an approved CITES permit because it is now 2020.


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## Arn213 (Jun 26, 2020)

^You should ask the main source since they provided you a photo- that would be your African logger that should be able to determined the species that is and what part of African it came from. I am really speechless........

Andy- good luck in your venture and man, make sure you have all of those permits, documentation’s required because once it hits the US ports and you don’t have every document that is required, your container will sit there and from what I know, they charge you for everyday it sits there- the cargo rate increases the longer the container sits on the terminal. Some exporters give up on the container (because of the accrued cost of the container sitting on the terminal) of waiting for the proper document to show up from the Port of Prince of Cameroon

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Brandon Sloan (Jun 26, 2020)

Best wishes to you. I get that you are running a business and just want to make some money. Just don’t let the greenbacks blind you. I’m convinced you are being scammed. The stock photos you posted are on other websites. I posted that already. The Chinese and other major players in the lumber import/export business have boots on the ground to secure any tree that falls. They aren’t going to loose a container of African hardwoods to Andy from Ohio.


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## Flacer22 (Jun 26, 2020)

Where are the photos I posted above at on other sites?? I'd like to see where they are of I'm being scammed definitely would like all leads I can get so where were these other photos posted????



Brandon Sloan said:


> Best wishes to you. I get that you are running a business and just want to make some money. Just don’t let the greenbacks blind you. I’m convinced you are being scammed. The stock photos you posted are on other websites. I posted that already. The Chinese and other major players in the lumber import/export business have boots on the ground to secure any tree that falls. They aren’t going to loose a container of African hardwoods to Andy from Ohio.


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## Flacer22 (Jun 26, 2020)

Arn213 said:


> ^You should ask the main source since they provided you a photo- that would be your African logger that should be able to determined the species that is and what part of African it came from. I am really speechless........


Lol well what is it then? I know what he told me it is I wanna know your opinion on what it is and why I should be so concerned??? I mean if it's something that's a legit issue I better deal with it so if your 100% it's a banned species than I wanna know right away but what I'm told it is doesn't give me an concern but I'm not on Africa so I might not know


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## Brandon Sloan (Jun 26, 2020)

P


Flacer22 said:


> Where are the photos I posted above at on other sites?? I'd like to see where they are of I'm being scammed definitely would like all leads I can get so where were these other photos posted????


Pinterest, I posted a screenshot above. You should be able to extract the metadata from the original pictures you were sent. That will give you the most information. I wish you no ill will, I’m sure you are a good dude and just because I don’t agree with something doesn’t change that.


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## Flacer22 (Jun 26, 2020)

Brandon Sloan said:


> P
> 
> Pinterest, I posted a screenshot above. You should be able to extract the metadata from the original pictures you were sent. That will give you the most information. I wish you no ill will, I’m sure you are a good dude and just because I don’t agree with something doesn’t change that.


I definitely don't know how to do that. The one photo you have screenshot is an older photo he sent me from back when we first started talking he himself has posted it in varys places so I can see it being out there on the interweb. Some of the others above he sent me 4 nights ago and should be no where else. Why I was curious but even the one u have screen shot like to be able to trace it back a little so make sure it was my guy that actually posted it.


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## Flacer22 (Jun 26, 2020)

Arn213 said:


> ^You should ask the main source since they provided you a photo- that would be your African logger that should be able to determined the species that is and what part of African it came from. I am really speechless........
> 
> Andy- good luck in your venture and man, make sure you have all of those permits, documentation’s required because once it hits the US ports and you don’t have every document that is required, your container will sit there and from what I know, they charge you for everyday it sits there- the cargo rate increases the longer the container sits on the terminal. Some exporters give up on the container (because of the accrued cost of the container sitting on the terminal) of waiting for the proper document to show up from the Port of Prince of Cameroon



Yes the possibility of issues here at port are very real. And what you speak of is exactly what my opening post mentions the costs associated with issuses here are alot it's 10k to have a container de contaminated for something as minor as some dirt in the bottom from a fork lift hitting mud when it put lumber in container. If your dunage is not correctly stamped the container must be shipped back to its home port to be re certified that would be 7k for re shipment. List goes on and on. However if you hire a proper frieght forwarding company like I have done they garentee that all the paperwork to avoid these kinds of situations is a correct and right before it ever ships and of it does get here with a problem they pay those costs not me. So this is what I am talking about when I say if anything goes wrong in this last final steps the shipment simply does not go though and stops at that point. 

Believe me this still may actually not happen and I get that but I'm very confident the network of stuff I have done is correct and should work provided everything happens correctly. Without saying to much in working with the lumber buyer of one of the largest guitar companies in the United States I actually just kiln dried some wood for them they imported from Guatamala. They know exactly what they are doing and how to do it and there buyer is helping me though the process so I have someone who literally has done this helping me. I didn't just get a what's app and reply to a dude on Craigslist selling wood in Africa and wire him 100k to send it my way.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Arn213 (Jun 26, 2020)

Flacer22 said:


> Lol well what is it then? I know what he told me it is I wanna know your opinion on what it is and why I should be so concerned??? I mean if it's something that's a legit issue I better deal with it so if your 100% it's a banned species than I wanna know right away but what I'm told it is doesn't give me an concern but I'm not on Africa so I might not know



Look, I don’t like to see people getting scammed and especially good folks here in WB. It doesn’t matter what wood it is and what I said it is- but, it does matter what he said it was. What I want to see happen is you get your wood legally and there is no hitch at your end when it comes into the port here in the US. Make sure your logger gives you all the necessary paperwork and like I mentioned to you before, you need to confer with Fish and Wild Life Service about what you are intending to do and what permits you have and what they need from you so your container can pass through customs without a hitch. I am done and out.......

Arn


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## Brandon Sloan (Jun 26, 2020)

Just a quick reverse image search, this one showed up on some Chinese website in 2016. I’m not saying it’s a smoking gun, but certainly enough to make you want to dig deeper.


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## Maverick (Jun 26, 2020)

I hope all goes well for you Andy and that we get to benefit from your hard work if you put any of it up for sale on WB.


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## Otterhound (Jun 26, 2020)

A few years back , I had the opportunity to purchase some true mahogany from Florida . I had no doubt that it was harvested legally , but the seller had no documentation . Sadly , I walked away . If you are buying Gaboon Ebony from Africa , Bob Taylor is in the mix or it is likely a scam . He has essentially cornered the market on that wood for better or worse . Most buyers that I know of or have heard of travel directly to the source to choose and verify their product as well as press skin with the vendor . Dot your I's and cross your T's or you may end up with a visit like Gibson got a few years back . No one wants that . Good luck and remember to trust but verify .

Reactions: Like 1


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