# New to the forum, a puzzling piece



## anixiwood (Jan 21, 2020)

Hello all,

I've got some wood that I'd like to get identified. I'm a part time luthier-sort, not a real maker just like to fix stringed instruments. In future, I'd like to be able to harvest my own tone-wood(s) and use them either for repair or builds.

Please let me know what you believe this piece of wood is. Thanks!

Reactions: Like 2


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## Eric Rorabaugh (Jan 21, 2020)

@phinds 
@Mr. Peet


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## Eric Rorabaugh (Jan 21, 2020)

Michael, check out our rules and go to the introduction section and introduce yourself to everyone here. BTW, welcome from Virginia

Reactions: Agree 1


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## anixiwood (Jan 21, 2020)

sorry, broke the rules, had a read, back on track.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## ripjack13 (Jan 21, 2020)

Also, good reading here, 
https://woodbarter.com/threads/welcome-to-the-wood-id-section-please-read-before-posting.69/

This will help us all in trying to id the wood. 
Although some woods may be able to be id'd with pics like the ones you posted, better photos are always better when looking for an ID of it....
Thanks!


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## phinds (Jan 21, 2020)

Could be osage orange, mostly based on color, but really I can't tell anything without seeing the end grain closeup. @anixiwood once you've read the link that Marc pointed you to, you'll understand what I mean. Also, try to provide some provenance. Where was it found, what's the density (likely impossible to tell on a piece this irregular but at least you should be able to say things like 'seems like a very light wood', or 'very heavy wood', or whatever). Can you slab part of it and show face grain in addition to the end grain?


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## Mr. Peet (Jan 21, 2020)

First picture looked like red mulberry, but others like osage. Awaiting details as requested by Paul.


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## anixiwood (Jan 21, 2020)

I'd love to hack off a slice, but, it's currently inaccessible. Could it be Pacific Yew?


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## phinds (Jan 21, 2020)

anixiwood said:


> I'd love to hack off a slice, but, it's currently inaccessible. Could it be Pacific Yew?


Don't think so but can't absolutely rule it out. Mark and I are clearly thinking hardwood. How "inaccessible" is it? Can you just get a LOOK at it to see if it's a hardwood or a softwood? If you can't get at the wood, we're not going to get anywhere.


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## anixiwood (Jan 22, 2020)

If the snow melts enough to get access, I'll get a nice piece off the end. It sure is good looking, whatever it is.


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## gman2431 (Jan 22, 2020)

Looks like firewoodius burnicus

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 5


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## vegas urban lumber (Jan 22, 2020)

douglas fir


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## anixiwood (Feb 18, 2020)

I'm back...
Sliced off a piece finally. I'll try to attach a macro photo here

Reactions: Like 1


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## anixiwood (Feb 18, 2020)

Could it be honeylocust?


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## phinds (Feb 18, 2020)

Well, it still could be red mulberry, osage orange or honey locust. I'd be inclined to bet on red mulberry but only with play-money at this point. Can you get the density?


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## anixiwood (Feb 18, 2020)

Density? No idea how to do that.
BTW, the smell is similar to urine, kind of gross...


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## phinds (Feb 18, 2020)

anixiwood said:


> Density? No idea how to do that.


Easiest way is to get a good-sized square or rectangular piece and carefully measure each side, then weight the piece. Tell me the results and I'll compute the density.


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## anixiwood (Feb 18, 2020)

Gotcha, will do!


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## Mr. Peet (Feb 18, 2020)

phinds said:


> Well, it still could be red mulberry, osage orange or honey locust. I'd be inclined to bet on red mulberry but only with play-money at this point. Can you get the density?



I'm going with Osage.

Black light will nix honeylocust, I think it is off colorwise and bark. Mulberry, I'll say no based on pith and knot color. However, similar. I think I see tyloses, often higher amounts in osage than mulberry.


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## phinds (Feb 18, 2020)

Mr. Peet said:


> Black light will nix honeylocust


Huh? My experience (backed up by the literature) is that honey and black, even though unrelated species, fluoresce about the same, just with black being slightly brighter. Check out the pics on my site.


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## Mr. Peet (Feb 19, 2020)

phinds said:


> Huh? My experience (backed up by the literature) is that honey and black, even though unrelated species, fluoresce about the same, just with black being slightly brighter. Check out the pics on my site.



Agree, point being, when it does not fluoresce, one less choice.


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## djg (Feb 19, 2020)

I'm betting on Mulberry. Looks like some I cut up once. But I'll wait on the final decision.


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## phinds (Feb 19, 2020)

Mr. Peet said:


> Agree, point being, when it does not fluoresce, one less choice.


Mark, you need to reread what you said, which was black light will nix honey locust. My point, which you now agree with, is that it will NOT nix honeylocust.


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## Mr. Peet (Feb 19, 2020)

phinds said:


> Mark, you need to reread what you said, which was black light will nix honey locust. My point, which you now agree with, is that it will NOT nix honeylocust.



Disagree with "Not nix". Yes,agree, blacklight will nix, as in knock out, honey locust if it does not fluoresce. You look from one side, I was looking from the other.

Reactions: Way Cool 1 | Informative 1


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## phinds (Feb 19, 2020)

Mr. Peet said:


> Disagree with "Not nix". Yes,agree, blacklight will nix, as in knock out, honey locust if it does not fluoresce. You look from one side, I was looking from the other.


Good point. My literal-mindedness getting in my way again.


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## JerseyHighlander (Feb 19, 2020)

Going to through my hat in the ring here... Hopefully can provide some help but one addition may make it a little more confusing. Lots of good answers so far & rightfully, more info would be helpful.

The endgrain looks a bit like Elm, probably Red Elm, but wasn't quite sure until the OP said it smells horrible, like urine, which is a primary indicator of Elm when it's still green. Any branches/twigs that might still have a leaf or even a bud on them would be very helpful.

It does also look a lot like Black Locust to me, the bark, what little is visible, also matches that. Testing with a black/UV light would be a positive, indisputable indicator if it glows fluorescent green under that light and absolutely eliminates it if it doesn't.

Osage, another that is a strong contender; contains a water-soluble yellow dye, so putting shavings into water will turn the water yellow.

Mulberry looks very much like Black Locust on the endgrain but 1) will not fluoresce & 2) is bright yellow when split open or cut fresh, then turns darker redish brown from exposure to sunlight.
This piece was left out in the sun a while then a clean shaving taken off the area that shows bright yellow.







Of course your being on the west coast makes things a little less familiar for me.


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## phinds (Feb 19, 2020)

@JerseyHighlander, you've made a good attempt at IDing this wood and I hope you will not take my comments as anything personal against you. My job here is to point out, with as much exactitude as I can, the fine points of IDing wood. Insulting people is @Kenbo's job (and he's terrible at it).



JerseyHighlander said:


> The endgrain looks a bit like Elm, probably Red Elm


No, it does not. There are a plethora of diffuse-in-aggregate pore groups in this wood and here is no hint of the ulmiform pore bands that are universally present in elm.



> It does also look a lot like Black Locust to me, the bark, what little is visible, also matches that.


Yes, it does.


> Testing with a black/UV light would be a positive, indisputable indicator if it glows fluorescent green under that light and absolutely eliminates it if it doesn't.


No, it would not. It would rule out mulberry but would not rule out honey locust. Please read all of the posts in the thread.


> Osage, another that is a strong contender


Yes, as has already been pointed out.


> contains a water-soluble yellow dye, so putting shavings into water will turn the water yellow.


excellent point. @anixiwood you should follow up on that, as it is worth checking and is very easy.



> Mulberry looks very much like Black Locust on the endgrain


Not really. Some similarity at the macro level but a 10X loupe will show that mulberry latewood pores are consistently much smaller than black locust latewood pores. You might find it instructive to start spending some time on my site.



> but 1) will not fluoresce & 2) is bright yellow when split open or cut fresh, then turns darker redish brown from exposure to sunlight.


Agree; both good points.


> This piece was left out in the sun a while then a clean shaving taken off the area that shows bright yellow.


Excellent example of mulberry. Thanks.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kenbo (Feb 19, 2020)

phinds said:


> Insulting people is @Kenbo's job (and he's terrible at it).





It's comments like this that will quash the myth that ALL Canadians are nice.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## djg (Feb 19, 2020)

Mulberry it is? I win.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## phinds (Feb 19, 2020)

djg said:


> Mulberry it is?


Where did that get decided? We've been getting at what it ISN'T pretty nicely, but that doesn't make it definitive what it IS. I ALWAYS find it much easier to determine woods that something ISN'T than deciding for sure what wood it IS. You may be right, of course, and things ARE pointing that way.


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## djg (Feb 19, 2020)

phinds said:


> Where did that get decided? We've been getting at what it ISN'T pretty nicely, but that doesn't make it definitive what it IS. I ALWAYS find it much easier to determine woods that something ISN'T than deciding for sure what wood it IS. You may be right, of course, and things ARE pointing that way.



I guess I misread the post. Sorry.


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## JerseyHighlander (Feb 20, 2020)

phinds said:


> @JerseyHighlander, you've made a good attempt at IDing this wood and I hope you will not take my comments as anything personal against you. My job here is to point out, with as much exactitude as I can, the fine points of IDing wood. Insulting people is @Kenbo's job (and he's terrible at it).
> 
> No, it does not. There are a plethora of diffuse-in-aggregate pore groups in this wood and here is no hint of the ulmiform pore bands that are universally present in elm.
> 
> ...



Paul, 
First, I appreciate the preface in your reply. Thank you. But I take "forum" by it's traditional meaning wherein it's a place for discussion & even debate. I wouldn't be here if I was that soft. And while I'm as near perfect as can be, I don't know everything about everything. Just ask my wife, she'll tell you. I did try not to make another tomb out of my reply so may not have been entirely clear and certainly wasn't overly technical as the OP obviously has no training in end grain micrographs or wood anatomy.

re the Elm; I took into consideration the fact that the OP is in the Pacific Northwest, well outside of my familiarity and in an area where even familiar trees can have different characteristics, even in an endgrain fingerprint. I've had more than one experience where, knowing with certainty what kind of tree I was dealing with because, I cut it down, had the leaves, buds, twigs, fruit & bark in hand, the endgrain just didn't match what the available micrographs said it should. I've come to learn there can be variances induced by environment, disease etc and always take endgrain with a grain of salt. 99% of the time they are pretty definitive but once in a while, you need more of the story. I primarily threw the Elm into the mix as the OP said it smelled like urine, which is a well known characteristic of several Elms when green.

re the Locust; I was referring to the UV fluorescence in regards to the Black Locust only as, in this particular case, Honey Locust wasn't really an option. As I'm sure you know, Honey Locust has virtually no Tyloses, which was very evident in the sample posted. I also doubt Honey Locust grows in the PNW, but could be wrong there.

re the similarity of Mulberry endgrain to Black Locust; Again was speaking more generally, from the perspective of the untrained eye, not down in the high magnification range. Otherwise, I concur completely. 
I've stumbled onto your site a few times over the years researching different woods, long before discovering Wood Barter. Quite a lot of work you've done there... Prior to that I studied from Dr. Hoadley's books when they first came out, back in the late 1980's before the internet was a common place thing. Was sad to hear that he passed this past October.


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## Mr. Peet (Feb 20, 2020)

JerseyHighlander said:


> Paul,
> First, I appreciate the preface in your reply. Thank you. But I take "forum" by it's traditional meaning wherein it's a place for discussion & even debate. I wouldn't be here if I was that soft. And while I'm as near perfect as can be, I don't know everything about everything. Just ask my wife, she'll tell you. I did try not to make another tomb out of my reply so may not have been entirely clear and certainly wasn't overly technical as the OP obviously has no training in end grain micrographs or wood anatomy.
> 
> re the Elm; I took into consideration the fact that the OP is in the Pacific Northwest, well outside of my familiarity and in an area where even familiar trees can have different characteristics, even in an endgrain fingerprint. I've had more than one experience where, knowing with certainty what kind of tree I was dealing with because, I cut it down, had the leaves, buds, twigs, fruit & bark in hand, the endgrain just didn't match what the available micrographs said it should. I've come to learn there can be variances induced by environment, disease etc and always take endgrain with a grain of salt. 99% of the time they are pretty definitive but once in a while, you need more of the story. I primarily threw the Elm into the mix as the OP said it smelled like urine, which is a well known characteristic of several Elms when green.
> ...



I did not know Bruce had died. Thanks for mentioning it. I like your truthful and thought out response as well.


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## phinds (Feb 20, 2020)

Kyle, great response and I'm happy you did not not take my comments personally. I have several significant failings in wood ID and I sometimes overcompensate by emphasizing discussion about what I DO know. First, I can't smell and I often find that others who can get an immediate ID, or at the very least a strong hint, based on that and second I pay little to no attention location, a flaw that I'm often quite aware of when I talk to Mark Peet (@Mr. Peet) who knows quite a lot about growth ranges (and other characteristics of those damned "tree things" that I know nothing about).

That said, it remains true that end grain and a 10X loupe can usually be relied on for a lot of definitive information. Growth range, soil conditions, proximity to bodies of water, etc, can have a large impact on coloration and growth rate but will have little to no significant impact on scaled anatomical characteristics.

Another of MY characteristic (not the wood's ) is that I spend FAR more time on The Physics Forums than I do here and the conversation basis there is very different there than here (almost the opposite in fact) and I sometimes forgot which forum I'm on. There, all that matters is the facts and incorrect statements are quickly squashed as being a waste of time. At least this time I had the good sense to re-read my answers and put in the preface.

Glad to have a fellow wood enthusiast here on WB.

Paul

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## anixiwood (Feb 20, 2020)

Great leads, very much appreciated!
I'm working on it today, even though it's cold. I'm going to get some shavings, put them in water, see what happens. I'd love for it to be Osage btw


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## anixiwood (Feb 20, 2020)

No yellow stain in the water, not Osage I guess.

As for density:

Measures: 24.35 X 24.70 X 27.45 mm
Weight: 12 grams


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## Eric Rorabaugh (Feb 20, 2020)

Wow with the color in that piece, the brownish color in the first pic and the bark, I would have bet money on osage. Waiting on the final diagnosis.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## phinds (Feb 20, 2020)

OK, roughly 43 lb/cuft but that's a pretty rough figured because of the extremely small sample size and the low precision on the weight.

mulberry is about 44lbs/cuft
honey locust is about 42lbs/cuft
black locust is about 48lbs/cuft

SO ... this easily in the range of all three, although less likely for black locust and the color says that it is definitely not honey locust. I'd say mulberry pretty much for sure but it would be nice to have UV confirmation that this wood does not fluoresce.


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## JerseyHighlander (Feb 20, 2020)

anixiwood said:


> No yellow stain in the water, not Osage I guess.
> 
> As for density:
> 
> ...



That puts it at roughly 45lbs/ft3. Rules out Osage right there. I'm guessing there is still a bit of moisture in it or is that dry weight? Looking more and more like Mulberry. Doesn't have the right color for Black Locust but putting a black light on it would be great to rule out Locust just the same.

This is a piece of Mulberry showing the brown end and the bright yellow inside the fresh split. 


 
and an end grain shot of the same.

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## phinds (Feb 20, 2020)

Good to see we agree on all points.

I note that my estimate on the weight is low and yours is better. I always round to .4" / cm

Reactions: Agree 1


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## JerseyHighlander (Feb 20, 2020)

phinds said:


> Good to see we agree on all points.


Haha. You must've hit the but ten seconds before me.


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## phinds (Feb 20, 2020)

JerseyHighlander said:


> Haha. You must've hit the but ten seconds before me.


I'm fast (but I don't last, is what the girls all used to tell me)

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## JerseyHighlander (Feb 20, 2020)

phinds said:


> I'm fast (but I don't last, is what the girls all used to tell me)




I had to stop and make sure I dotted my T's & crossed my I's.


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## Eric Rorabaugh (Feb 20, 2020)

I've haven't seen mulberry wood here YET so I didn't know it was yellow like that. I learnt sumthin new tuday!


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## phinds (Feb 20, 2020)

Eric Rorabaugh said:


> I've haven't seen mulberry wood here YET so I didn't know it was yellow like that. I learnt sumthin new tuday!


Well, it's only yellow when freshly cut.

pretty new and very old

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## anixiwood (Feb 20, 2020)

It's internal wood, but still a little bit wet. It's been outside all winter. I don't have a way to measure moisture, so I'll just guess that it's around 15%????


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## anixiwood (Feb 20, 2020)

Oh, and I'll try to find a UV light somewhere.


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## anixiwood (Feb 20, 2020)

No, it doesn't fluoresce. Pics of bark and small branches attached.


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## phinds (Feb 20, 2020)

Excellent. Mulberry it is.


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## anixiwood (Feb 20, 2020)

Paul,
That settles it then, thank you all for the help. Now's the tough part: what to do with it ;)


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## phinds (Feb 20, 2020)

anixiwood said:


> Paul,
> That settles it then, thank you all for the help. Now's the tough part: what to do with it ;)


Well, send it to me, of course.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## anixiwood (Feb 20, 2020)

Doh, hunh, what?! ;)


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## phinds (Feb 20, 2020)

anixiwood said:


> Doh, hunh, what?! ;)


Put it in a box. Put stamps on it. Put my address on it. Give it to the post office. I will dispose of it appropriately.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## JerseyHighlander (Feb 20, 2020)

anixiwood said:


> Paul,
> That settles it then, thank you all for the help. Now's the tough part: what to do with it ;)


Well, you said you do part time Luthier work... Mulberry has some interesting working properties. Very different from other things I've worked. I'm sure it would make beautiful accent pieces and such. I'd be curious what kind of tonal properties it would have but if there is any part of woodworking I know the least (read nothing) about, its Luthier work. Still, would love to have a go at making a violin one day.


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## anixiwood (Feb 20, 2020)

Yeah, well, Paul aint gettin any of it! ;)
All seriousness aside, I'd really like to do some research on if Mulberry would make a good tonewood. I agree that it would make great accent pieces on ukuleles, but, I think it might be capable of more. I'm also a pipe maker, tobacco that is. I've read that mulberry is safe to use with tobacco, and it actually looks pretty good. Some say that it might even look interesting when sand-blasted! I'll cut me some blocks and fiddle with it some...Sorry Paul...


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