# At Kevin's request



## MikeMD (Aug 28, 2015)

For anyone that didn't read Kevin's post on Barry's thread, Kevin asked me to start a thread addressing an issue.

Here the history:

I said, among other things (in Barry's thread) 

"I'd give more comments, but I don't want to be flogged by the peanut gallery..."

Kevin replied 

"I would love to see you start a thread and explain why and where and when and how you left us lowly poor souls still sitting in the peanut gallery looking at gods like you.

You are always quick to have a lot of expert-sounding critique but most of it seems to be aimed at people you need lessons from (I realize you had sense enough not to give Barry any advice but I want to know who the peanut gallery is). Start that thread Mike so we can all critique you. Not here. Your own thread please."

So, here it is:

@Kevin, I said I would give more comments, not tear Barry's piece apart... Secondly, I'm just saying that I had more comments. But after getting my wrist slapped for giving them before, I've learned not to here. Third, I said this piece is 'stunning'...even without the embellishments, because the form is spot on. How much more praise could I have given for something that is as well executed at this? Fourth, I have not given a single piece of advice or critique since that wrist slapping. Go back and look at my posts if you don't believe me. Fifth, I don't consider myself any more of a turning god than you do about being a forum god. 

Most importantly, the peanut gallery is those who flogged me. Calling them a peanut gallery doesn't raise me to godlike status leaving others below me. The peanut gallery is simply those who publicly judged and chastised me for wanting/trying to help others as I had been helped. Fun jabs seem to be taken all over this forum. I was making one specifically for those it was intended for without calling out names. Fun jabs (and not so fun ones) and downright attacks were taken toward me for trying to help (not belittle or degrade) others. Again, I've learned to not give advice, offer suggestions, or give my critique (which is simply a opinion from another turner based on preferences) on any turnings here on WB...even if the person asks for it. 

I think the reason Kevin wanted me to start this thread was so that anyone that I've offended by being too harsh (or as it has been said by some [accurately]...brutally honest), will have the opportunity to tell me what they think of me, my attempts at helping, my apparent belittling of others, and my (in some folk's eyes) egotistical godlike status. To anyone I have offended, I'd like to offer a sincere apology. That certainly wasn't my intention. 

Kevin, if you'd rather me not be part of WB, just say so.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Kevin (Aug 28, 2015)

Thanks for clearing that up Mike.


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## Steve Walker (Aug 28, 2015)

Just a suggestion.....

If anyone posts a completed project or a work in progress, and they are truly wanting feedback in the form of a critique or comments, then ASK for it.
If all you are wanting to do is show off your latest piece, Then DON'T ask for it.
And anyone replying to the post should abide by the request, or non request of the poster.

@Kevin, Maybe a Sticky at the top of the page????

Edited....
But, if you do ask for C&C, remember that you are opening the door to what others "think", and have your big girl panties on, because you may not like some of the responses.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thank You! 1 | Agree 9


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## Kevin (Aug 28, 2015)

Steve Walker said:


> Just a suggestion.....
> 
> If anyone posts a completed project or a work in progress, and they are truly wanting feedback in the form of a critique or comments, then ASK for it.
> If all you are wanting to do is show off your latest piece, Then DON'T ask for it.
> ...



Those are good suggestions Steve but 99.9% of the members here pretty much already self-regulate in that regard so it's not a common occurrence here - pretty rare really. I like to be careful of too many stickies because the more that are there the less they get read (mea culpa too).

I know Mike means well and sincerely tries to help in his own abrupt unsolicited way, but I was probably a little abrupt in how I offered my observation to him so again, mea culpa. Thanks for your feedback and suggestions they are truly appreciated.

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## barry richardson (Aug 28, 2015)

Mike, I've never been offended by your comments. For folks who have been ,or are members of dedicated turning forums, we know critiquing each others work is a big part of the culture, and expect it. And members can take the suggestions, or discard them as they see fit, without taking offense. I think here at Wood Barter, as Steve suggested, if a person is seeking feedback, he should say so, then fire away, otherwise we should assume they just want to show an accomplishment and/or the cool wood they used...

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## JR Custom Calls (Aug 28, 2015)

I am the kind of person who says what I'm thinking... So I'm guilty of offering my opinion even when it's not asked for. But I assume the same in return. Anything I post, whether I ask or not, is posted to get feedback. Obviously with a turkey call it's hard to critique because looks mean almost nothing, but I let customers do that for me.

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## pinky (Aug 28, 2015)

IMHO, no turner, woodworker, artist, gets better without someone along the way pointing things out to them. I see turnings all the time that I feel could use constructive criticism but usually don't. There are usually a long line of "great job" on that. I'm sure it makes the poster feel good but if critique is put out there with no Malice, I feel it would benefit the turner more. Of course, everyones opinion is different but that is what makes this country great. Not the PC police. People are smart enough to see the validity or not of the critique and that critique might help All see things through a different lens. I would rather someone tell me the truth of what they think of a piece or what could make it better than receive a attaboy or a "participation trophy". Everyone isn't always going to agree but what is wrong with that.

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## JR Custom Calls (Aug 28, 2015)

pinky said:


> IMHO, no turner, woodworker, artist, gets better without someone along the way pointing things out to them. I see turnings all the time that I feel could use constructive criticism but usually don't. There are usually a long line of "great job" on that. I'm sure it makes the poster feel good but if critique is put out there with no Malice, I feel it would benefit the turner more. Of course, everyones opinion is different but that is what makes this country great. Not the PC police. People are smart enough to see the validity or not of the critique and that critique might help All see things through a different lens. I would rather someone tell me the truth of what they think of a piece or what could make it better than receive a attaboy or a "participation trophy". Everyone isn't always going to agree but what is wrong with that.



True story... I posted some calls on here and @Kevin mentioned that I should pay more attention to my sound holes. I hadn't given it much thought, honestly. Now, I pay lots of attention. It's little details that really make a difference. Had he not pointed that out, my calls may still have u sanded, unfinished holes.

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## Kevin (Aug 28, 2015)

@JR Custom Calls I feel that some members want critique and others don't, and sometimes the ones that like it may not want it for every single thing they show. I also think the biggest factor inwheter or not critique is well-received (unsolicited or not) is how the critique is worded. I remember giving you that advice Jon and I also remember taking great care in how I worded it, and I'm glad it helped. 

@pinky I totally get what you're saying but I also don't believe it's quite as black and white as you describe, but that's just my opinion. Overall, on this forum, unsolicited critique just doesn't happen often and when it does there's usually an effort made to make sure the recipient doesn't feel like he's been admonished nearly. But as you correctly pointed out John we all see things through a different lens, and that's why I do not want to be a PC Police and make a sticky about it. Self-regulating our unsolicited critique has been working almost flawlessly thus far so no need to add another velvet hammer to the arsenal. 

Great discussion going on guys.

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## DKMD (Aug 28, 2015)

If this is the thread where we get to bash Mike, I'm gonna bookmark this mutha and visit it frequently!

I agree with what's been posted above, and I think it highlights one of the glaring deficiencies of Internet forums... The written word often doesn't accurately reflect the tone of a given message. Since I've had Mike tell me my turnings suck _in person_, I know his heart is in the right place, and he's serious about offering honest opinions about his work and the work of others. For those of you who don't know, Mike's a lot more critical of his own stuff than anything the rest of us post... It's one of the reasons he makes nice things.

For folks who are interested in stepping up their game, learning to cast a critical eye on your own work and the work of others is a really important factor in making strides... At least that's been my experience.

Group hug?

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## JR Custom Calls (Aug 28, 2015)

Kevin said:


> I remember giving you that advice Jon and I also remember taking great care in how I worded it, and I'm glad it helped


I can understand that. And I do the same for people I don't really know very well. I'd have never joked with @Tclem about his prison weapon if I didn't feel like he'd have taken it the way I intended. And you're right, it's hard to have black and white lines drawn, as everyone is different. Most of us that are on here regularly know how to talk to the same group without upsetting... But new members or those that don't post as much and have that same relationship are harder to read. Not much anyone could say that would hurt my feelings, but I realize that isn't the case for everyone.

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## kweinert (Aug 28, 2015)

I think a general "not looking for a critique" default should be assumed. If you want constructive comment/criticism when you post a project then you should ask.

I'm not in favor of a general statement "anything I post is open to critique" because then that means that I (and everyone else) has to go look you up and try to see if you've ever said that before making a comment. Putting that statement in your signature would work though since that's in every post.

I also agree that if you ask for comments, take them in the spirit they're intended. I don't believe I've ever seen anyone here being mean just for the sake of putting someone else down. I've certainly gotten comments that I didn't agree with - I ignored them :) They might have had a valid point, but it's not how the project looked in my mind - it is good though to have feedback on what others see.

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## gman2431 (Aug 28, 2015)

@pinky nailed it. 

It's always nice to hear the kudos of your work but I love to hear feedback no matter what it is. I feel it's specially important for people (like myself) who are always willing to try new things or push themselves a little further to get the honest truth. And yes I got my big girl panties! 

I've posted many things asking specifically for C&C and didn't get much return from it. Someone's simple "take some more off the bottom for a better curve" can really help me visualize things and look at it in a different light. Whether I like that light or not I still can learn from their opinion. 

I'm not very artistic or a visual person when it comes to staring at a block of wood and learning from more experienced people and other turners is very important to me.

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## Kevin (Aug 28, 2015)

DKMD said:


> Group hug?



I see how you are - willing to pass out hugs _en masse_ but you didn't give me a single one at SWAT.

Reactions: EyeCandy! 1 | Funny 3 | Sincere 1


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## Tclem (Aug 28, 2015)

Is it my turn to say something off the wall or should I wait for @SENC and his Barney badge to start

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 3 | Creative 1


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## MikeMD (Aug 28, 2015)

For the record, it was pointed out to me that I had been giving advice/critique when it wasn't asked for. I didn't realize I had been doing that, but went back and looked at some of my responses, and sure enough, some were unsolicited. That is why I ceased making comments other than pretty, nice wood, etc... Since it was brought up to me, rather than taking a hit for making a comment, I opted not to...even if C&C was asked for.


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## woodintyuuu (Aug 28, 2015)

The problem with open critique is manyfold and i have certainly been guilty of several in various venues. There was a time im my past where i thought i was the start and end of every idea that could be debated!. I have learned otherwise for sure. here are a cuple of things that come to mind:
1. form and the use of it is not NOT an aribrary issue (i have spent the last 15 years of my life creating objects that are very different from most folks and have enjoyed that much) A discussion on form is by all means important, but needs to be tempered by my own filters and thus CAREFULLY considered
2. opinions are like arms and legs we probably have several
3. I am not an expert because i regurgatate information from books or demos 
4 i do not need to tell someone to use more sandpaper that will become more apparent soon enough
5. i make Art for a living (someone asked me one time am i an artist or a craftsman- i did not know the answer but this made it clearer to me , "can you afford to purchase your own work" DD so the idea is important to me, not your idea 
6. I can be ruthless on people
7. I can be loving on people
8. My problem is to know how and where to do both!
9. the hardest thing to do as a woodworker is come up with original ideas
10. If i cannot say something positive about someones work i will probably step on there toes (ask me how i know this)
IF you want fearless discussion on your work ask clearly thanks cl

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## barry richardson (Aug 28, 2015)

If only you would post more of your finished work Mike, we could beat you up and feel better....... quid pro quo, as they say

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## Blueglass (Aug 28, 2015)

Kinda like JR said sometimes getting a feeling bruised makes me reexamine my techniques. Or discover something horrible about to happen. When Kevin pointed out a less than perfect joint on a shell it stung. Watching the crack grow and rip the shell apart was worse.

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## Alan Sweet (Aug 28, 2015)

First, I have become super tired of the over use, mis-use and abuse of the "offensive", "hurt feelings", "sensitivity" and "victimization" by a vocal part of our society. The PC crowd has screwed things up so bad it is hard for us to carry on decent dialogue with out being berated. 

I think part of the hesitancy on the part of many is the impact of this PC oriented mentality. 

When people venture into new areas of interest they experiment and fail more times than they succeed. Its called learning. That process can be quickened by knowledge of others, even if not nicely stated. There are 6 billion people in this world and every one of them knows things I don't. I, certainly, can learn something if I pay attention to what some of them have to say; reading, videos, opinions, even rough shod critiques. I don't have to adhere to it all. Take what is useful and move on.

I can't learn anything from a "mutual admiration society" and I think that this forum ( one or two others) provide reasonable feed back. (Maybe 60% soft and 40% good critique.)

All that being ranted, I also know that there are some people here just for the fun of it, they enjoy the act of working with wood. And they like the outcome even if not a perfect work of whatever. And they like showing it off with out the concern of being berated. 

All works, are just that. They are not the person. So if a piece is lop sided or rippled or not very good, it is the piece that can be improved. It has nothing to do with the person who made it. 

Up till now, I have felt the forum has provided a good place for all.

(But, my hide is pretty thick and being a the smallest guy on the play ground, I learned to survive bullies and fools.)

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## Kevin (Aug 28, 2015)

Alan you hit on an issue I had started typing but never finished - this forum is comprised of professionals, amateurs, hobbyists and everything in between. Some from all categories want all the critique they can get - others don't want any at all. Some will want some sometimes but not other times.

Like most who will post in this thread (many will not because they don't want to come out and say "I don't appreciate nor want advice unless I ask for it!") I always welcome the C & C. I doubt anyone can find a single post I have made to someone who gave me C & C that wasn't genuinely appreciative. But regardless of the consensus view of this thread I think we can all agree the silent majority will not post. I guess that's why they are called silent. 

Something good always comes from something that might not have started out so good as long as we all try to make it so, and maybe this will be no exception. The mad doctor and I have spawned an idea to make this issue a really positive thing (we hope). I'm going to start a thread in the staff section to get the ball rolling from the other turners and see where it goes. It doesn't involve mud and bikinis but it still might be a welcome activity . . . .


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## Tclem (Aug 28, 2015)

Well I guess it is hard to critique my hair sticks. Lol but I guess that's because I'm the turning King and I taught people like @woodintyuuu And @barry richardson.

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## pinky (Aug 28, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Like most who will post in this thread (many will not because they don't want to come out and say "I don't appreciate nor want advice unless I ask for it!") I always welcome the C & C. I doubt anyone can find a single post I have made to someone who gave me C & C that wasn't genuinely appreciative. But regardless of the consensus view of this thread I think we can all agree the silent majority will not post. I guess that's why they are called silent.




Just because they are silent, one should not perceive what they are thinking.

If you post a picture of something, I think you should expect the good, the bad, and the ugly. Once again, a critique is only one persons' opinion. Why get your undies in a bundle. Some might agree with that opinion and maybe no one will. Who cares if no malice was intended. Other peoples thoughts should always be welcome. One shouldn't have to remember if this person likes critiques and this one doesn't. Expect it, and use it if it is applicable. If it is worthless, move on. Just my .03, adjusted for inflation.


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## Kevin (Aug 28, 2015)

I have to disagree John simply because what you are proposing just doesn't happen here for the most part, and I don't think most of the members want to make a sea change like you are proposing. Your opinion is one just like mine, but the consensus of the membership since day one has been the opposite of how you seem think it should be, so while you and I may or may not agree on how and when C & C should be given, the consensus view has determined it thus far without any meddling or offcial rules or stances, and I think making one now would be counterproductive. 





pinky said:


> One shouldn't have to remember if this person likes critiques and this one doesn't.



I don't think anyone is saying that. As I mentioned in a post above, there is a discussion in the staff section to address this in a really positive NON-RULE way and I think everyone in this thread will be pleased with what we come up with. Let's wait until all the staff weighs in with their ideas then I'll pull the sheet off for all you to look at it.

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## gman2431 (Aug 28, 2015)

Here one thing I wanted to add but forgot earlier. 

When I ask for C&C I want it from everyone. Sometimes people say "looks great but I'm not a turner", so what? 

I'm my eyes someone who isn't a Turner, or say doesn't make bowls but makes pens, comments with a critique on a bowl its my opinion that that is how someone purchasing your work would look at it or very close to. 

Say there's someone who is at about your experience. Those people you can feed off from because they are on the same road as you and know the struggles and challenges you are facing. 

Now say some of our amzingly talented people on here (there's lots of you) have a critique that's like a teacher talking. Listen! I might not like it or do it that way but they are saying it for a reason. 

Ok that's it. Lol.

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## pinky (Aug 28, 2015)

Kevin

I'm not proposing anything. I'm just saying, feelings shouldn't get hurt because of what someone else thinks. Someone might not ask for it but will find that they certainly benefited from it. I don't agree with others quite often but like water off a ducks' back, off it goes. Looking forward to staffs' ideas, maybe I'll agree with them.

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## manbuckwal (Aug 28, 2015)

As a relatively new turner I do enjoy and ask for C&C when I'm looking for it , and happily receive it when I don't  . I think most would welcome encouraging advice, but should probabaly be given when asked for.
As already stated, the written word can be a challenge to figure out the "tone" of the advice, especially if you have no prior dealings w the person. I don't think I have ever seen anyone turn down advice when someone says, "thats a nice piece, you mind If I offer a suggestion ? What appeals to some, won't appeal to all, and I believe we tend to make things "we" like . For the person really wanting to go diehard into the upper echelon of his field, they are going to be begging to get "beat up" so to speak, through C&C ............I think lol. 

PM is a wonderful thing too............I once had someone offer me some C&C thru a PM .

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## Jerry B (Aug 28, 2015)

*sigh*

I've been a professional wood worker for damned near 40 years, and a "professional" turner for close to 15
I don't post pictures just to boost my ego with the "looks great" responses, I post to get opinions on how it looks thru someone elses eyes .....
(I always post C&C welcomed ......you have to step outside the circle to see inside )
There are things I know should be done better, and I work on fixing that on future pieces (such as the alignment of my segmented pens)
When asking for comments/criticism you can't have thin skin, 
but the person commenting could also use a little tact and diplomacy when wording how they think it could be better.
It's up to the person to take advantage of the opinions, or not ...... no ones holding a gun to your head ;-)
There isn't a single soul that doesn't have some area that could be improved, the question is, do you care enough to make the improvements
I care enough, in fact is my main priority, to make the best piece possible so the person buying it will be proud to own and show off to their friends .......

If you don't want people giving their opinions, then you should say so when you post your pictures

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## Tclem (Aug 28, 2015)

Jerry B said:


> *sigh*
> 
> I've been a professional wood worker for damned near 40 years, and a "professional" turner for close to 15
> I don't post pictures just to boost my ego with the "looks great" responses, I post to get opinions on how it looks thru someone elses eyes .....
> ...


Agree 99.999%. I have no room for improvement

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## justallan (Aug 28, 2015)

I feel how we do it is about the best way, figure it's just showcasing unless asked for C&C.
A HUGE point to always remember is that it's very hard to interpret what you are saying through a keyboard sometimes and that's at all parties of a conversation.
I think @gman2431 hit on a good point that a lot of folks learn by what is said by comments whether it's on my work or yours, therefore I generally want to hear them.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Kevin (Aug 28, 2015)

Jerry B said:


> *sigh*
> 
> I've been a professional wood worker for damned near 40 years, and a "professional" turner for close to 15
> I don't post pictures just to boost my ego with the "looks great" responses, I post to get opinions on how it looks thru someone elses eyes .....
> ...



I agree 100% with everything you said Jerry except the last sentence. It's always been just the opposite here and although some may not like it, that's one of the things that is different here compared to other forums. I'm in a weird position because I have never had a thin skin, but I know others do and we ought to respect them anyway and not force our "right to critique" on them. I feel the right ought to be by default a member knows when he posts a project he is not going to be subjected to the professional peanut gallery to steal a phrase, unless he specifically asked for it. 

Members should not just presume that the poster wants criticism but oh heck if he doesn't then he should not post a piece (to paraphrase how I understand your position), so I feel that any serious C & C should be withheld unless asked for, as opposed to the member having to say "NO C & C welcome" because that puts them in a bad position. Even a piece that can be critiqued, which is almost all of them (100% of mine for sure) also has nice attributes that can be appreciated and if the member isn't trying to become a Mike Mahoney, they should still be able to show off their work without having to worry it's going to be picked apart regardless of whether they want it to be or not. 

Default should be no C & C unless asked for. And as stated we are hammering out the details of the fix for this hopefully. There are exceptions of course. The regulars pretty much all know who wants it. When I offered Les the critique on his stave joints I knew he needed it because he selling them but more importantly I knew he would not get miffed at me. Not too much anyway.

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## Jerry B (Aug 28, 2015)

and here's where I'm still getting used to this site, I respect the fact people shouldn't automatically be subjected to criticism or opinions
And I didn't mean to imply that by posting an image you were mandated to people's opinions, in fact just the opposite, people should post it's OK
most of my previous reply was about me, and wanting, in order to better any lacking skills or just plain laziness, which If you're selling, you should want to do anyway ;-)
and I don't want to be another Mike Mahoney, but I do want to be a Malcolm Tibbetts

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## CalumetWoodworks (Aug 28, 2015)

I am new to this forum but not new to artistic forums. I am a self taught wood turner and artist so I WELCOME the C&C. It is the only way I know to get better at this craft. I also believe that if you are just posting pictures to share your creations with a like minded audience that is not an open invitation to criticism. If you want critiques and criticism, then ask for it. Being silent should be a sign that you don't want comments on the creative or structural makeup of your piece.

Being artistic creators, we are all in tune with our emotions, for it is these same emotions that drive our creative spirit.

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## Kevin (Aug 28, 2015)

Jerry B said:


> I don't want to be another Mike Mahoney, but I do want to be a Malcolm Tibbetts



Yeah I hear ya. But he isn't a wood turner he's a wizard+magician=how did he do that!? Man that guy has a creative mind eh.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MikeMD (Aug 28, 2015)

Though I feel what is being addressed (to critique or not to critique) is a great topic for forums like this, I don't think this is what Kevin was intending this thread to be about.

This is why he wanted this thread started:

"I would love to see you start a thread and explain why and where and when and how you left us lowly poor souls still sitting in the peanut gallery looking at gods like you.

You are always quick to have a lot of expert-sounding critique but most of it seems to be aimed at people you need lessons from (I realize you had sense enough not to give Barry any advice but I want to know who the peanut gallery is). Start that thread Mike so we can all critique you. Not here. Your own thread please."

Consider this my... C&C welcome. 

And the reason I'm rehashing this and bring it to light is that the stones being thrown at me circle around two things: Giving unsolicited advice/critique (and it is critique, not criticism), and being an egotistical self appointed turning god. The first, I've addressed and apologized for (which, in a way, goes to the topic at hand). The second is simply an accusation and character attack asking "Who the hell are you, and what gives you the right to offer critique?" And I know I'm being labeled as someone that simply bashes turnings (even if critique is welcome). But I do not believe I've given ANY critique without a positive response along side it. I could be wrong, I was wrong once before in 1975...or was it 76?

As for critiquing, in one instance (that didn't sit will with Kevin) a member here posted some pics of a NE vase. The NE at the rim had high peaks and low valleys. The wood was beautiful, and the form was very pleasing. I noted both. I went on to suggest that, in the future, the turner might want to consider making the walls an even thickness all the way down (since there were high peaks and low valleys, it was evident that the rim was thinner and the turning got thicker as they went down to the bottom. Kevin's reply to my comment was "Who the hell cares about even wall thickness? It is a beautiful turning!" (paraphrased...but close). What did I WANT to say back? I'll keep that to myself. But I don't feel like I was being unfairly rude to the turner, yet Kevin not only did, but chose to walk that line with me. Granted, I DO believe this was one of those turnings that the Member did NOT ask for C&C, but maybe a PM to me by Kevin addressing this could have brought his disapproval to light.

As for sanding and tool marks 'going away', without having to point it out, as the turner progresses...hogwash. I've seen seasoned turners leave them in because they either don't see them, or don't realize that they are doing it. Think about the turners here that are haled as the cream of the crop, and held high on pedestals for their skills. Take Barry and his latest turning for example...not a tool mark or sanding mark to be found ANYWHERE. That is what puts pieces like this over the top. Had there been rings around it from his skew, or sanding swirls that he didn't feel like going back to get out that he hadn't notices were there at first (you know, until he got down to about 400 grit...and said choice works, and had to go back to 180 and start over), this would have been an okay to nice turning. But his attention to detail is what makes this a piece of art, not a crafted hollow form. BTW, Barry, I have no idea if you had to go back and re-sand...it was just an example. One that happens to me more often than I'd like to admit, but it is what it is.

Yes, I'm brutally honest. Not just in forums. I tell it like it is (or at least how I see it). I hate "PC". I try to be tactful, but there is a fine line between tactful and PC. I wear my emotions on my sleeve. And sometimes I offend without intending to. I'm thick enough skinned to take constructive critique, but DO get my panties in a bunch when attacked personally. That's me.  Yeah, I know...

But again, C&C welcome.

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## kweinert (Aug 28, 2015)

Kevin said:


> It doesn't involve mud and bikinis but it still might be a welcome activity . . . .



If you saw me in a bikini you'd want there to be plenty of mud to cover things up.

Just sayin'

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## Kevin (Aug 28, 2015)

That was a well thought-out reply Mike, thanks for taking the time to clarify yourself. I won't address all the points in your post tit for tat because it would probably just keep going down the same path IMO, but I will comment on this one:



MikeMD said:


> Granted, I DO believe this was one of those turnings that the Member did NOT ask for C&C, but maybe a PM to me by Kevin addressing this could have brought his disapproval to light.



Maybe you should consider that a PM by you to the member giving your unsolicited advice in the first place, and my comment would have never left my fingers and you would not be singling me out as the bad guy in a situation I did not start. I am probably way too protective of our members - I tend to forget sometimes we are all grown men that can handle our own situations.

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## MikeMD (Aug 28, 2015)

Agreed regarding not going back and forth. I'll cease. But to clarify, the situation you quoted was before you made it aware to me that he didn't ask for C&C. Knowing now that this forum is not the 'Post and expect critique' kind of forum, you are right that I could/should have PMed him and asked him if he wants my opinion...otherwise, leave it alone. Hindsight...

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## JR Custom Calls (Aug 28, 2015)

Mike, it's obvious to me that you have the right intentions. I enjoy seeing you post, and I'll welcome your critique any time. Sounds like a total misunderstanding on both your parts... perhaps a poor choice of wording that led Kevin to think something you didn't intend. I think Doc said it best with 'Group Hug'. I think this is good for everyone to read through, though. I know several of us have admitted guilt to offering critique when it wasn't asked for, and I will certainly be more mindful of that going forward. FWIW, not taking sides... I have had many more discussions with Kevin than Mike, and consider Kevin to be a friend (not to say I wouldn't enjoy hanging with Mike, just haven't got to know him that well).

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Kevin (Aug 28, 2015)

I still want my damn hug.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## MikeMD (Aug 28, 2015)

JR Custom Calls said:


> FWIW, not taking sides... I have had many more discussions with Kevin than Mike, and consider Kevin to be a friend (not to say I wouldn't enjoy hanging with Mike, just haven't got to know him that well).



Not looking for anyone to 'take sides'. Do so if you want/need to, but not my intention to rally against Kevin. Just wanted to redirect the thread to his intended purpose...that's all. 

If I'm ever in your neck of the woods, I'd be happy to have a beer/whiskey/scotch/margarita/daiquiri/whatever with ya. Likewise, if you are ever up here, drop me a line/note.


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## Kevin (Aug 28, 2015)

MikeMD said:


> Not looking for anyone to 'take sides'. Do so if you want/need to, but not my intention to rally against Kevin. Just wanted to redirect the thread to his intended purpose...that's all.
> 
> If I'm ever in your neck of the woods, I'd be happy to have a beer/whiskey/scotch/margarita/daiquiri/whatever with ya. Likewise, if you are ever up here, drop me a line/note.



What about me will you let me buy you one if we ever meet? I promise not to bring Henry. 

Seriously Mike -- thanks for forcing us through another growing pain. I said before and I meant it, that good can come from something that didn't start out that way and I think it will. You had a big part in it if it does. Thanks for that.

Reactions: Like 1 | +Karma 1 | Sincere 1


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## Kevin (Aug 28, 2015)

BTW The new forum will be active in a half hour or so whenever I can get through flipping all these switches. There's a lot to flip. If anyone's lights go out or the wife says her washer stopped working let me know and I will try to back-track on the switch-flipping.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## MikeMD (Aug 28, 2015)

Kevin said:


> What about me will you let me buy you one if we ever meet? I promise not to bring Henry.



Sure...as long as you don't slip me a Rufi. 

Well, I honestly didn't see it going like this at all. But, if it helps the site grow, I'm glad to help.

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## gman2431 (Aug 28, 2015)

This thread is a great example of how woodbarter is! 

There wasn't one take measure needed to measure each other's..... Well ya know! 

Things were talked out like grown men and even things have been learned along the way and that is why I like this place! 

Put this topic on another forum once....

I'd buy all you guys and beer but don't be getting to grabby on the hugs!

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Kevin (Aug 28, 2015)

gman2431 said:


> I'd buy all you guys and beer but don't be getting to grabby on the hugs!



Oh c'mon you closet man hugger! grab your teddy bear and get in touch with the inner woman in all of us. Follow Kaitlyn's lead!

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Mike1950 (Aug 28, 2015)

Kaitltyn!!!!! Does this mean it is a new rule we got to cut off our unHUH'sss

Reactions: Funny 4


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## NYWoodturner (Aug 28, 2015)

Just got home from work and read through all this to get caught up.
First I will say this is one of the top three discussions I've ever seen on the forum. I agree with Cody - it just shows what a class act this group is. 

Secondly I just want to put Keller @DKMD on the spot. IMO he offers more C&C (solicited or not) on turnings than anyone on the forum. He does it with a level of diplomacy that offends no one. What really stands out to me that I always appreciate from him is that he always offers a tip or suggestion on how to accomplish what he is speaking to. I always learn from that even if its not my piece. That I think we can all learn from him in that respect and should strive to incorporate in our C&C. 

Thirdly I would just reflect on who gives me the most C&C and that touches on a couple of points made above. Tom (@Molokai) gives me more C&C than you would ever imagine. We do it through emails and Skype. He is brutally honest. Never disrespectful at all - thats just not him, but I don't know if the level of honesty we share would be comfortable for a lot of people in an open forum. So my point is what was mentioned above - #1 C&C privately in a PM can be very beneficial and #2 - ask someone to mentor you. It really works. 

I think this is an inflection point for us. I am anxious to see how it evolves. Mike and Kevin - kudos for having the stones to have this conversation and include us. My guess is we will grow from it.

Reactions: Like 3 | Thank You! 2


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## SENC (Aug 28, 2015)

Wow. I get on the road for a few hours and leave you unattended and come back to find this sickening slobberfest. What a bunch of pantywaists! Even the Kentucky contingent is holding hands and singing Cumbayah! You all suck! And most of your grammar sucks, too! But I'll withold my critique for the staff pronouncement Kevin suggested would come - assuming, of course, staff ask for c&c on their pronouncement.

Reactions: Great Post 1 | Funny 4 | Way Cool 1


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## Kevin (Aug 28, 2015)

SENC said:


> Wow. I get on the road for a few hours and leave you unattended and come back to find this sickening slobberfest. What a bunch of pantywaists! Even the Kentucky contingent is holding hands and singing Cumbayah! You all suck! And most of your grammar sucks, too! But I'll withold my critique for the staff pronouncement Kevin suggested would come - assuming, of course, staff ask for c&c on their pronouncement.



You sure do like the word suck.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Informative 1


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