# definition of square sawn and rift sawn



## jimmyjames (Sep 12, 2013)

I'm not sure if any of you have noticed this or not but there's a lot of confusion of the definition of quarter and rift sawing, if you Google image search it there's many conflicting images of what these are, some have it backwards, in a rift sawn board the grain in perpendicular to the face of the board with very little deviation from 90 degrees of the board face, quarter sawn has deviation greater than 90 degrees, somewhere out there's there's maximum deviation from perpendicular where it can still be called quarter sawn. In a rift sawn board every single board out of the log has perfect perpendicular to face grain and after each board is cut the log is rotated to keep the grain perpendicular to the board face creating a triangle wedge of scrap for every board that is cut.


----------



## jimmyjames (Sep 12, 2013)

*RE: definition ofbquarte sawn and rift sawn*

Dang phone butchered my title.....


----------



## justturnin (Sep 12, 2013)

*RE: definition ofbquarte sawn and rift sawn*

Great thread. I have been confused by this for a long time. So how should the log be laying for each cut. I dont have a Sawmill but I try to accomplish this on my bandsaw.


----------



## jimmyjames (Sep 12, 2013)

*RE: definition ofbquarte sawn and rift sawn*



justturnin said:


> Great thread. I have been confused by this for a long time. So how should the log be laying for each cut. I dont have a Sawmill but I try to accomplish this on my bandsaw.



For rift or quarter?


----------



## jimmyjames (Sep 12, 2013)

*RE: definition ofbquarte sawn and rift sawn*

Quarter sawn there's 2 ways to start, the first way is to cut the log into quarters, the second is to split the log in half and take a full log width slab directly out of the pith, and then cut the 2 halves into quarters, then on your vertical band saw one of your cut faces would be down on the table and you cut a board off of the other face, then the face you just cut goes down on the table and you take a board off of that cut face, alternating it every cut, rift sawn would be pretty hard to do on a vertical band saw or any band saw for that matter, I'm not sure how you would go about rift sawing, you'd need to have a fixture of some sort so hold the log so it can be rotated for each board that is cut, to be honest I don't think anybody rift saws anything, I think when they are quarter sawing they take the first boards with the perfect perpendicular grain and call it rift sawn and put it in a different pile, the time it would take to rift saw a log and the scrap it produces its not worth it since you would only get maybe 50% yield compared to a quarter sawn log.


----------



## justturnin (Sep 12, 2013)

*RE: definition ofbquarte sawn and rift sawn*



jimmyjames said:


> justturnin said:
> 
> 
> > Great thread. I have been confused by this for a long time. So how should the log be laying for each cut. I dont have a Sawmill but I try to accomplish this on my bandsaw.
> ...



1/4sawn mainly. My understanding was to have 1/4 sawn you would take a 1/4 wedge from the trunk, lay it flat with the pith section down flat and saw it and rift was with the pith point straight down/up and you saw. Am I way off or just spitting out jibberish? :dunno:


----------



## jimmyjames (Sep 12, 2013)

*RE: definition ofbquarte sawn and rift sawn*

Here's a photo that is correct, the quarter sawn log on the right is correct as well but creates more waste than the quarter sawn log on the top left


http://i178.Rule #2/albums/w249/jimmyjames1981/Plainsawn_quartersawn_riftsawn_northend_hardwoods1-480x360_zps2a92b0be.jpg


----------



## jimmyjames (Sep 12, 2013)

*RE: definition ofbquarte sawn and rift sawn*



justturnin said:


> jimmyjames said:
> 
> 
> > justturnin said:
> ...



With the pith pointed up it would still be quarter sawn since you don't rotate the log and create a triangle scrap for every board cut, you can see in the picture of how the log would need to be rotated


----------



## justturnin (Sep 12, 2013)

*RE: definition ofbquarte sawn and rift sawn*



jimmyjames said:


> Here's a photo that is correct, the quarter sawn log on the right is correct as well but creates more waste than the quarter sawn log on the top left



Brilliant, that pic shows what my limited vocabulary could describe.

Also, what you said above about the Rift sawn off the first 1/4sawn boards makes sense and I bet that is correct.


----------



## Treecycle Hardwoods (Sep 12, 2013)

*RE: definition ofbquarte sawn and rift sawn*



jimmyjames said:


> in a rift sawn board the grain in perpendicular to the face of the board with very little deviation from 90 degrees of the board face, quarter sawn has deviation greater than 90 degrees,
> 
> 
> somewhere out there's there's maximum deviation from perpendicular where it can still be called quarter sawn.
> ...



I don't mean to start any stuff but you have it backwards Jimmy. Quartersawn material has grain perpendicular to the surface of the board. Rift sawn is anything between flat sawn and 80* to the surface.

Here is a link to the National Hardwood Lumber Association Grading rules. They touch on this on page 12 of the manual but only in terms of Qsawn species where you are going after figure like oak, sycamore, etc... 

On other species such as ash, maple, walnut, etc where you are not going after a figured pattern qsawn can be graded as such where the grain is anywhere from 45*-90* to the surface to the board.

Your pic is a little off as well. Not sure if you make it or not but the one labeled as rift sawn that looks like a clock is the best way to get Qsawn material. It leads to a lot of waste but is it the best. There is other ways to get qsawn where you did a good job of describing the process but you just need to replace rift sawn with qsawn. 

You described the process of quatering a log.... (great description BTW) what you end up with is the grain that is perpendicular to the surface hence the Qsawn name. Hopefully the link will help.


----------



## Treecycle Hardwoods (Sep 12, 2013)

I worked to modify the pic a little. Putting in the growth rings you can see where they meet the surface of those boards. I marked a Qsawn board with a red arrow and a rift sawn board with a green arrow. 

Putting the growth rings in the log I renamed qsawn you can see that each board will come out with grain perpendicular to the surface of the board. 

On the plain sawn log you can also see that you will get a mixture of rift. quarter, and flat sawn boards. Some boards in a plain sawn method will have opposite rift patterns on either side of the board, and some of the boards (the ones thru the pith) Will be 100% qsawn. Still others will be 100% flat sawn. 

Another source of info I just thought of on this topic is the woodmizer website. They are really good about teaching their saw owners the different ways to saw logs using their mills.


----------



## phinds (Sep 12, 2013)

Treecycle Hardwoods said:


> I don't mean to start any stuff but* you have it backwards Jimmy*. Quartersawn material has grain perpendicular to the surface of the board. Rift sawn is anything between flat sawn and 80* to the surface.



I absolute agree with you. This discussion has infuriated me for many years and I have a long discussion of it in my glossary. How people continue to get this backwards is a mystery to me.

Here's a correct pic from my glossary

[attachment=30879]


----------



## Treecycle Hardwoods (Sep 12, 2013)

Here is another way of looking at it.... next time you see a piece of oak/sycamore/lacewood that has the figure of qsawn material take a look at the end grain and see how perpendicular the growth rings are to the end of the board. you can still get qsawn figure in wood where the grain is not perpendicular to the surface which is why the NHLA rules give a little leaway when grading qsawn material.


----------



## Kevin (Sep 12, 2013)

This is another one of those topics where it isn't black and white. 

Greg, please provide the quote from the NHLA handbook where they define rift sawn. They used to not even recognize it. What I've found is that most sawyers will tell you quarter sawn is 75 - 90 and rift is 45 to 75. For a while I assumed this was the way all sawyers thought, then I started noticing different opinions on forums etc. Some sawyers say that if a board shows the medullary rays it is qtr sawn no matter the angle of the rings. I've noticed that a lot of the older sawyers consider lumber to be either qtr sawn or flat sawn and don't recognize rift sawing either - probably because the NHLA rulebook did not recognize it back when they were cutting their teeth at the mill - but it seems the rule book has changed which is why I'd like to see a quote from it. I haven't looked at mine in so long frankly I don't know where it is and do not care. 

Jimmy I'd say don't get too caught up in it. Just make sure you understand the benefits of quartersawing and if it looks like it's qtr sawn then call it that. After you've sawn for a while you'll settle into your own definition and it will be correct in Jimmyville and customers who kick stacks of lumber in Jimmyville will also use your definition because you will have defined it for them. That's how I approached it when I sold local to the public. I don't miss that. :i_dunno:

P.S. Jimmy, once you understand qtr sawing in your sleep, you'll realize that there's many ways to go about it not merely two.


----------



## Treecycle Hardwoods (Sep 12, 2013)

Kevin said:


> This is another one of those topics where it isn't black and white.
> 
> Greg, please provide the quote from the NHLA handbook where they define rift sawn. They used to not even recognize it. What I've found is that most sawyers will tell you quarter sawn is 75 - 90 and rift is 45 to 75. For a while I assumed this was the way all sawyers thought, then I started noticing different opinions on forums etc. Some sawyers say that if a board shows the medullary rays it is qtr sawn no matter the angle of the rings. I've noticed that a lot of the older sawyers consider lumber to be either qtr sawn or flat sawn and don't recognize rift sawing either - probably because the NHLA rulebook did not recognize it back when they were cutting their teeth at the mill - but it seems the rule book has changed which is why I'd like to see a quote from it. I haven't looked at mine in so long frankly I don't know where it is and do not care.
> 
> ...



This came from page 10 of the 2011 version of the rules (page 12 of the PDF file) NHLA does not define either Qsawn or rift sawn in their glossry. It is refered to only on a species by species basis when it comes to grading.

35. In species where figure is not required, pieces shall be considered
quartered when 80% of the surface of the required cuttings in
the aggregate shows the radial grain at an angle of 45˚ or less
with one face.

Page 26 describes the requirements for an oak/locust board (note that the same requirements also apply to sycamore)

Quarter Sawn Red Oak, White Oak, and Locust
90% of one face of the required cutting area in the aggregate shall
show figure.

note that in order to get the figure the grain needs to come more perpendicular to the surface of the board

Quarter Sawn Sycamore shall be graded according to the rules for Quarter
Sawn Oak except that mineral streaks and spots and streaks and spots of
similar nature are admitted without limit.


I have gone quite far in noting sources of info for this topic. I do agree with kevin that it will be up to the sawyer and his customers to agree on what qsawn is. It is way bad juju to try and convince your customers that they are wrong and you are right on a particular topic. Kevin was spot on in another thread recently about air dried/ kiln dried on the topic of gun stocks and luthiers. The craftsman of those calibers are often picky and they are always right... Why... Because they have been successful doing it their way and have made their customers happy by doing it their way. The same principles can be applied here when selling Qsawn material. Your customer isn't going to by your product if they believe they are right and you are selling the something different than their belief.


----------



## Kevin (Sep 12, 2013)

I hear ya Greg. The drying issue is one that will foster passionate debates, but whatever I threw out in the yard and called quarter sawn, even the woodworkers with decades of experience would accept it as such without hesitation - at least outwardly. Possibly because I never labeled anything QS that was not obviously QS or possibly because I am well known locally to be as honest a guy as you'll find but for whatever reason I never had any trouble with the QS vs rift debate. Thye only contention I have seen is online and my guess is a lot of the posters calling themsleves sawyers are not sawyers, never have been sawyers, or at best worked at a sawmill for a while. So they never developed a real sense of what they even think QS is for themselves. As you know, there is a "zen" if you will, that comes from milling lumber and you get to be part of the whole process and you understand wood to a degree that's impossible to depart to someone that hasn't been involved at that level. Not trying to get all touchy-feely but I know for a fact you know what I mean, even though we've never discussed this. 

What I was talking about Jimmyville and his customers, was labeling his wood as QS - few if any customers are going to walk up to a pile of QS lumber and say _"I think this is really closer to rift than QS man."_ as long as it shows a QS pattern, even if the rings are clearly in the 60ish degree range - they won't get that far if the pattern is there at least it never happened to me. But if they do it's easy to deal with:

_"You have a point there maybe it should be called rift sawn even though it has all those rays showing. How much do you want?"_


----------



## Treecycle Hardwoods (Sep 12, 2013)

The fickle nature of the consumer will require any sales person to be on their toes especially the lumber sales person as there are some debated topics for our industry. Developing relationships is key to having a successful business. Especially in something as competitive as the lumber biz. So if your customer is happy to buy something that is not mathmaticly Qsawn I say sell it to him/her that is what I would do!!

I have looked at the qsawn/rift sawn from a mathematical standpoint in my first couple of postings in this thread rather than from a consumers lense. From a sawyers point of view you need to learn how to saw a log to get the desired figure the customer wants. (this is where jimmy got thing reversed in the beginning) The truth of the matter is trees don't grow with perfect circular grain. When applying the mathematics of qsawing a log you will not end up with perfectly qsawn boards as a result. Which, in most cases is fine by the consumer as Kevin pointed out. To tie this in with other picky craftsman we can look at the luthiers I deal with. Often times they come to me lookin for Qsawn maple/cherry for the necks of their instruments. Not because of figure but because of stability. A qsawn board is more stable than a rift or flat sawn one is. When qsawning for luthiers it is best to have those growth rings at 90* to the surface as that is how they will like it best. To a craftsman style furniture builder you will likely make them happy with any showing figure regardless of the angle in which the growth rings come to the board surface.

As Kevin described the "Zen" part of milling I couldn't help but smile because as a wood worker/sawyer I get to have a gift from God every time I open up a log. The rush of that "Zen" feeling hindered my efficiencies at times when I first started milling  Some days that feeling kept me to only 200 Bf of production where now I easily do 1000+ on my little woodmizer.


----------



## jimmyjames (Sep 12, 2013)

Treecycle Hardwoods said:


> I worked to modify the pic a little. Putting in the growth rings you can see where they meet the surface of those boards. I marked a Qsawn board with a red arrow and a rift sawn board with a green arrow.
> 
> Putting the growth rings in the log I renamed qsawn you can see that each board will come out with grain perpendicular to the surface of the board.
> 
> ...



I didn't draw the picture it came straight off the inter web, there's so many people calling it one way and another , also some sell rift sawn lumber or what they call rift sawn lumber for higher price, I'm fine with being wrong , when I'm wrong I learn to be right, if you Google rift sawn images you will see why I have been confused for so long, every single picture is different, evidently there's a ton of people confused on this matter.


----------



## jimmyjames (Sep 12, 2013)

phinds said:


> Treecycle Hardwoods said:
> 
> 
> > I don't mean to start any stuff but* you have it backwards Jimmy*. Quartersawn material has grain perpendicular to the surface of the board. Rift sawn is anything between flat sawn and 80* to the surface.
> ...



Well I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, but its probably not a good way to push your website by doing nothing short of insulting me.... I'm hear to learn just like everybody else......


----------



## Kevin (Sep 12, 2013)

Jim, here is a really good thread about quarter sawing. I am TexasTimbers in the thread and I showed one method I used to cut for a luthier in post #40, but the whole thread is full of great info. In fact, the forestry forum would probably be a great place for you register and learn. There's a bunch of great knowledgeable sawyers there.


----------



## Fret440 (Sep 12, 2013)

All that being said... If you guys want to cut a bunch of logs up like this, and have it conveniently disposed of on my property (cuz I don't know why you'd want to keep it after you cut it up like that...), I'd be glad to take it off your hands!    :teethlaugh: 

Jacob


----------



## phinds (Sep 12, 2013)

jimmyjames said:


> if you Google rift sawn images you will see why I have been confused for so long, every single picture is different, evidently there's a ton of people confused on this matter.



Yep, you're definitely right about that. I had a long and eventually somewhat heated discussion about this with one of the main offenders and eventually just gave up on it, doing the best I could to discuss it rationally in my glossary.


----------

