# What do you call it?



## Mr. Peet (Oct 12, 2018)

Yesterday I started splitting a cord+ of wood for an older female couple. I was sad to see they had their 15" DBH 'Serviceberry' taken down and bucked up. So after about 30 minutes of splitting their 'Red oak' it started to lightly rain. As I started into the service berry, I decided to set aside a few pieces for bowls. About the fifth piece split I noticed figure. Service berry is a very variable tree. It can often have spiral grain, interlocking reversed grain and straight grain. This tree had all three but was mostly straight grain, rare in my experience.

So, likely 10' feet up or so, the firewood lengths had figure. I decided to set a piece aside. When I finished splitting the wood, I asked for the pieces I had set aside and was able to bring them home. I also brought home a piece of curly 'Red oak'. Apparently I was lost in time, since I see we had 2" inches of rain while I was splitting the wood.

Here is the question, what would you call this service berry?

"Figured", Curly, light curl, flame grained or another term?

I like how the figure seems to fade as it reaches the heartwood.

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## kweinert (Oct 12, 2018)

Personally I'd call it a light curl. Not that I'm the last word in identifying figure, mind you - but that's my opinion :)

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Mike1950 (Oct 12, 2018)

Maybe light flame, like birch gets


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## Eric Rorabaugh (Oct 12, 2018)

I'd call it "nice"

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Mr. Peet (Oct 12, 2018)

Thanks Guys, I'll sleep on it.


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## phinds (Oct 12, 2018)

I agree w/ Ken. Lightly curly (and Mike is saying the same thing since "flame" in birch is just curl)

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## Mike1950 (Oct 12, 2018)

phinds said:


> I agree w/ Ken. Lightly curly (and Mike is saying the same thing since "flame" in birch is just curl)


Yes but you really dont see this in birch and i call it curl.


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## phinds (Oct 12, 2018)

By my understanding of terminology the first one is close to fiddleback (many vendors would unhesitatingly call it fiddleback) --- I'd call it a "tight" curl. The second one is more quilted (a "sausage" quilt) than curl.

For either of those pieces though, if you brought them within reach of my grab, I'd call them "mine". NNYYYAAHHAAAHAA

I do agree that the light curl is what is normally called "flame" when it occurs in birch and some people use the same name when it occurs in maple.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Arn213 (Oct 13, 2018)

Mottled figuring which is a wide spectrum- I had some boards like that type of figuring for acoustics out of African movingui and flamed birch (sap to heartwood as well as sapwood) from Maine. You can also find that pattern on Arctic Flame birch. It is not as dymanic pattern figuring compare to razor mottled, block mottled or broken mottled.


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## phinds (Oct 13, 2018)

Arn213 said:


> Mottled figuring- I had some boards like that type of figuring for acoustics out of African movingue and flamed birch (sap to heartwood as well as sapwood) from Maine. It is not as dymanic pattern figuring compare to razor mottled, block mottled or broken mottled.


I disagree, although "mottled" is not a completely unreasonable term for what I'm calling a sausage quilt in this case.

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_mottle.htm


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## Mike1950 (Oct 13, 2018)

Arn213 said:


> Mottled figuring which is a wide spectrum- I had some boards like that type of figuring for acoustics out of African movingue and flamed birch (sap to heartwood as well as sapwood) from Maine. You can also find that pattern on Arctic Flame birch. It is not as dymanic pattern figuring compare to razor mottled, block mottled or broken mottled.



I have some movinqui, and it is quite figured but curl is not word for it. Words do not describe all figures. One of these is curl the other, ? Both ovangkol

Reactions: EyeCandy! 1


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## Arn213 (Oct 13, 2018)

phinds said:


> I disagree, although "mottled" is not a completely unreasonable term for what I'm calling a sausage quilt in this case.
> 
> http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_mottle.htm



I am sorry to disagree with you too. That is a broken mottled flame pattern and appears to be quartered. 

Sausage pattern usually occurs on flat sawn quilted maple as it is a specific figure pattern- but, I have seen sausage quilt pattern on African bubinga that Gilmer had way back before 2010.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Arn213 (Oct 13, 2018)

Mike1950 said:


> I have some movinqui, and it is quite figured but curl is not word for it. Words do not describe all figures. One of these is curl the other, ? Both ovangkol
> 
> View attachment 154048
> 
> View attachment 154049



The second photo is “mottled”. I have African movingui that exhibited that pattern.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Mike1950 (Oct 13, 2018)

Arn213 said:


> The second photo is “mottled”. I have African movingue that exhibited that pattern.


Movinqui i have is much more defined.


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## Eric Rorabaugh (Oct 13, 2018)

@Mike1950, both of those would make some pretty pot calls! Hint hint

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## Arn213 (Oct 13, 2018)

I forgot Mike- Hawaiian Mango has mottled figuring as well and flame fiddleback.

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## Arn213 (Oct 13, 2018)

Mike1950 said:


> Movinqui i have is much more defined.



I agree with you on this, but like I said the mottled figuring has sub-categories like block mottled, razor mottled, mottled. This is true too with quilted maple that you carry- there is sausage, popcorn, blister, etc.

The same goes with curly maple- there is fiddleback (quarter sawn), pin stripe flame (quarter sawn), ribbon curl, broken curl (flat sawn)....

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## Mike1950 (Oct 13, 2018)

Arn213 said:


> I forgot Mike- Hawaiian Mango has mottled figuring as well and flame fiddleback.


So does makore

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mike1950 (Oct 13, 2018)

Eric Rorabaugh said:


> @Mike1950, both of those would make some pretty pot calls! Hint hint


I have some of second. None of dark curl at moment


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## phinds (Oct 13, 2018)

Arn213 said:


> The second photo is “mottled”. I have African movingue that exhibited that pattern.


That I agree with


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## phinds (Oct 13, 2018)

Mike1950 said:


> I have some movinqui, and it is quite figured but curl is not word for it. Words do not describe all figures. One of these is curl the other, ? Both ovangkol
> 
> View attachment 154048
> 
> View attachment 154049


I'd call the first one curly and the second one mottled.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mike1950 (Oct 13, 2018)

Makore and movinqui. This movinqui reall popped i n guitar.


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## Mr. Peet (Oct 13, 2018)

Mike1950 said:


> I have some movinqui, and it is quite figured but curl is not word for it. Words do not describe all figures. One of these is curl the other, ? Both ovangkol
> 
> View attachment 154048
> 
> View attachment 154049



Nice pictures Mike,

Jealous of your talents and woods... Your curly 'ovangkol' I would call 'tiger stripe curl' if you go beyond the simple call of curl / curly, since the ripples ebb and flow like the stripes of a Bengal tiger. If you sell blanks to Eric I'd like to buy a sample's worth with sapwood and heartwood. Likewise the second mottled piece, I have a mottled sample, but you really need to articulate the piece in just the right light to see it, so eventually would like to upgrade it. We still have not finished our dealing with 'Black ash burl', a walnut burl and another one I can't seem to recall at the moment that I'd like to handle before I forget again...

As for flame, the width of the figure comes into play as well. Lots of people sell curly 'Black cherry' when it is often flame grained. Fiddle back was usually ripple being evenly spaced and parallel for the width of the piece. If there was an unbalanced spacing, a 1:2 or more ratio it was curly, but when you got to 1:4 ratio of ripple there was another name I forgot. When the ripple exceeded 3/4ths of an inch, it usually moved into the flame range. If the ripple was 3/4ths, angled and curved, flame was a stronger choice. Lots of the birch has the angle and often tapers like a feather.

I really have enjoyed everyone's posts in this thread.

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## Mike1950 (Oct 13, 2018)

Mr. Peet said:


> Nice pictures Mike,
> 
> Jealous of your talents and woods... Your curly 'ovangkol' I would call 'tiger stripe curl' if you go beyond the simple call of curl / curly, since the ripples ebb and flow like the stripes of a Bengal tiger. If you sell blanks to Eric I'd like to buy a sample's worth with sapwood and heartwood. Likewise the second mottled piece, I have a mottled sample, but you really need to articulate the piece in just the right light to see it, so eventually would like to upgrade it. We still have not finished our dealing with 'Black ash burl', a walnut burl and another one I can't seem to recall at the moment that I'd like to handle before I forget again...
> 
> ...


Give me list of samples you need. And size. You have to pay shipping.. thanks for all the technical info you contribute


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## Mr. Peet (Oct 13, 2018)

Mike1950 said:


> Give me list of samples you need. And size. You have to pay shipping.. thanks for all the technical info you contribute



I honestly can't recall and don't remember where the list is in case I forgot...So forgive me, I'll start one again, oh, I think a figure of myrtle was on the list. None the less, Thanks Mike, I'll start a new list.

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## Mike1950 (Oct 13, 2018)

Mr. Peet said:


> I honestly can't recall and don't remember where the list is in case I forgot...So forgive me, I'll start one again, oh, I think a figure of myrtle was on the list. None the less, Thanks Mike, I'll start a new list.


Just as much my fault. You gave me one and..... but bad weather is coming which means i am cutting a lot.


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## Arn213 (Oct 14, 2018)

Mr. Peet said:


> As for flame, the width of the figure comes into play as well. Lots of people sell curly 'Black cherry' when it is often flame grained. Fiddle back was usually ripple being evenly spaced and parallel for the width of the piece. If there was an unbalanced spacing, a 1:2 or more ratio it was curly, but when you got to 1:4 ratio of ripple there was another name I forgot. When the ripple exceeded 3/4ths of an inch, it usually moved into the flame range. If the ripple was 3/4ths, angled and curved, flame was a stronger choice.



I’ve processed a lot of figured maple that grows on the east coast (acer rubrum, acer saccharum, acer saccharinum). For guitar building where the figuring is wide- they are called “ribbon flame” and “tubular flame”. They both are different patterns and easily distinguishable from fiddleback and pinstripe flame. The ribbon flame or tubular flame is usually slab sawn/flat sawn cut on the wide grain face- the side edges will typically exhibit “pinstripe” flame as this would have grain orientation that is quarter or quarter to rift. “Tubular” figuring also resides, but hard to find on western bigleaf maple (acer macrophyllum) in form of quilt. There is also a term called “chevron” flame where it has to do with the orientation of the figuring- typically it is from 30-45 degrees.


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## Mr. Peet (Oct 14, 2018)

Some of the Cherry in the recent finds post shows 'Chevron' flame. I've seen it called 'cathedral flame' as well, but that term is fading as is much religious inflection.


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## Arn213 (Oct 14, 2018)

I just pulled this from my library as I put aside anything that I process that is highly unusual. This came from the upper peninsula in Michigan. It is hard maple/hard rock/sugar maple (acer saccharum). It has some mild broken mottled curl that travels east to west and has these unique “white bait/school of fish” pattern that runs north and south. I also have another unusual hard maple with figuring pattern that is concentric with blister like anomalies. I’ll post in when I find it.

View attachment 154143

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## phinds (Oct 14, 2018)

Arn213 said:


> I just pulled this from my library as I put aside anything that I process that is highly unusual. This came from the upper peninsula in Michigan. It is hard maple/hard rock/sugar maple (acer saccharum). It has some mild broken mottled curl that travels east to west and has these unique “white bait/school of fish” pattern that runs north and south. I also have another unusual hard maple with figuring pattern that is concentric with blister like anomalies. I’ll post in when I find it.
> 
> View attachment 154143
> 
> View attachment 154144


Looks like bear claw figure. Can you post a cleaned up end grain? Also, if you're not familiar w/ bear claw figure, check it out and see if you don't agree:

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_indented_and_bearclaw.htm


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## Arn213 (Oct 14, 2018)

phinds said:


> Looks like bear claw/hazelficte figure. Can you post a cleaned up end grain? Also, if you're not familiar w/ bear claw figure, check it out and see if you don't agree:
> 
> http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_indented_and_bearclaw.htm



I have and had some figured bear claw/hazelficte spruce tops for acoustics, so I am familiar with the term and what it looks like. Spruce when it has the bear claw figuring, the end grain has somewhat of an aberration where the winter growth ring will have a flat line (90 degrees), then it will have some “sine like curve”- this is based on axe cut, quarter sawn cut tops. The bear claw pattern on spruce can be bi-directional. It can also run east to west or north and south. The “white bait/school of fish” pattern on this runs in a group formation towards the same direction- up and down. The figuring on this maple actually has very dense coverage and very consistent. If you look closer too, there is curl pattern that is blurred that runs east to west. The end grain on this is also “not” indented. If you are familiar with Kauri from New Zealand with “white bait” pattern, it is closer to this maple than the bear claw pattern.

I posted a couple of more photo’s. I have a long piece that I have slated to use for a guitar neck. By the way, I have had something similar like this on soft, red maple. The figuring though is more complex as the “white bait is not concentrated” and more dispersed is accompanied by other “soft puffy cloud formation”.





View attachment 154152


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## Mr. Peet (Oct 14, 2018)

Arn213 said:


> I have and had some figured bear claw/hazelficte spruce tops for acoustics, so I am familiar with the term and what it looks like. Spruce when it has the bear claw figuring, the end grain has somewhat of an aberration where the winter growth ring will have a flat line (90 degrees), then it will have some “sine like curve”- this is based on axe cut, quarter sawn cut tops. The bear claw pattern on spruce can be bi-directional. It can also run east to west or north and south. The “white bait/school of fish” pattern on this runs in a group formation towards the same direction- up and down. The figuring on this maple actually has very dense coverage and very consistent. If you look closer too, there is curl pattern that is blurred that runs east to west. The end grain on this is also “not” indented. If you are familiar with Kauri from New Zealand with “white bait” pattern, it is closer to this maple than the bear claw pattern.
> 
> I posted a couple of more photo’s. I have a long piece that I have slated to use for a guitar neck. By the way, I have had something similar like this on soft, red maple. The figuring though is more complex as the “white bait is not concentrated” and more dispersed is accompanied by other “soft puffy cloud formation”.
> 
> ...



That would often be listed simply as 'bear-claw' in the common market...Beautiful for sure.


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## Mr. Peet (Oct 15, 2018)

Ok, what do you guys call this grain figure in/on this 3" wide piece of 'Sapele'?


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## rocky1 (Oct 15, 2018)

Nappy Weave!


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## Arn213 (Oct 16, 2018)

Mr. Peet said:


> Ok, what do you guys call this grain figure in/on this 3" wide piece of 'Sapele'?
> View attachment 154208 View attachment 154209 View attachment 154210 View attachment 154211



It has similarities to figuring I have had in maple and electric guitar builders usually has that figuring categorize as “quilted flame” or “ribbon flame”. It is in unique in a way as it resides in the the “gray area” of bordering between flame figuring and quilt figuring.


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## Mike1950 (Oct 16, 2018)

quilt when cut QS gives wide rolling figure. Usually you do not see it because quilt is a shallow surface figure.

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## Arn213 (Oct 16, 2018)

I found a remnant piece of well figured quilted sapele that came from an acoustic side- just to show the figuring contrast between the piece you shown. Shot with lacquer, photographed with artificial fluorescent light with an old iPad mini.

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## Arn213 (Oct 16, 2018)

Mike1950 said:


> quilt when cut QS gives wide rolling figure. Usually you do not see it because quilt is a shallow surface figure.
> 
> View attachment 154226



.......the east coast version of quilt, conversely would be quilt on the face grain and the side edges will have either pin stripe flame or fiddleback flame. This piece is sugar/hard rock maple (acer saccharum) and highly unusual to have this type of figuring for maple that grows in the east coast. Guitar builders refer to this as “chevron quilt or boat wake quilt” due to the dynamic cascading movement of the figure and due to the orientation of the figure.

I am thinking of rehandling the handles on some Greenlee that’s I have out of this.


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## Mike1950 (Oct 16, 2018)

West coast quilt

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## Mr. Peet (Oct 16, 2018)

Arn213 said:


> .......the east coast version of quilt, conversely would be quilt on the face grain and the side edges will have either pin stripe flame or fiddleback flame. This piece is sugar/hard rock maple (acer saccharum) and highly unusual to have this type of figuring for maple that grows in the east coast. Guitar builders refer to this as “chevron quilt or boat wake quilt” due to the dynamic cascading movement of the figure and due to the orientation of the figure.
> 
> I am thinking of rehandling the handles on some Greenlee that’s I have out of this.
> 
> ...



Looks similar to 'angel step' in sugar maple...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Arn213 (Oct 17, 2018)

Mr. Peet said:


> Looks similar to 'angel step' in sugar maple...



It is acer saccharum. Yes, there are some hints of ‘angel step’ in the one face, however it is not the dominating figuring pattern. Optically to me, it is more of a chevron quilt with “boat wake” quilt movement on it’s surface. If this piece was actually book-matched in half (it is over 6/4), the hints of ‘angel step’ will have remnants of it left while the dominating chevron element will remain present.

Some quick mirror image of both faces....

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