# Requesting Help Identifying Species



## V. Kelly Bellis (Mar 29, 2020)

A couple of days ago I got 2 chords of green firewood delivered. Yesterday I started pawing through the mix of red oak, maple, birch, and one species that I thought looked like poplar. I asked the young man that had processed and delivered wood and he stated most sincerely that the wood in question was black locust. We texted back and forth without persuading the other as to our belief. I truly hope that my GUESS as to it being poplar is wrong and that Graham's assertion as to it being black locust is correct; however, its weight, though green and with much moisture, is noticeably lighter than the equally freshly cut red oak, AND, it didn't fluoresce under a black light.

Because of the COVID-19 crisis blazing across the planet, the University of Maine is shut down as too is the County Cooperative Extension Service. I've written to the Maine District Forester for Hancock and Washington Counties hoping that Michael might be able to help. As I await his response, I was wondering if anybody here on this forum might know, or at least have a best guess in determining the species from the following (8) photos that I've uploaded to Dropbox because I am unfamiliar with how many (limited?) and how well these images may appear on the Wood Barter server.

https://www.dropbox.com/home/WoodBarter/Species TBD?preview=end-grain-_MG_2844.jpg

This morning I weighed the block again and noted that it had already shed 0.5 oz (12.5 grams) and was beginning to show signs of checking.

I don't own a device for measuring moisture content. Just wondering: Should the billet of wood be dried in some preferred manner?

Are there any tests I can perform while we are all "sheltered-in-place" ?


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## phinds (Mar 29, 2020)

Obviously not poplar. Appears to have ulmiform pore groups so would likely be elm or hackberry.

I didn't get anywhere beyond that statement. If you send me a sample, I can probably get further.

EDIT: hackberry and elm can both definitely can get those nice rays on a quartersawn surface.


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## eaglea1 (Mar 29, 2020)

Looks similar to ash


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## phinds (Mar 29, 2020)

eaglea1 said:


> Looks similar to ash


Hackberry looks a LOT like ash but it does NOT have the ulmiform pores in the end grain so ash is ruled out for this wood.


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## V. Kelly Bellis (Mar 29, 2020)

I sawed off another chunk from the same split firewood source, planed the end grain and have a fresher, wetter view, shown here as shot from my phone's camera:

Reactions: Like 3


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## phinds (Mar 29, 2020)

OK, thanks. The ulmiform pores are weaker than I thought. I'll have to take another look. This brings ash back into the realm of possibility although still somewhat unlikely.

It may come down to the size and spacing of the rays and both of those relative to the pore size. I can't see that in enough detail in this pic, although it's an excellent job of cleanup.


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 29, 2020)

phinds said:


> OK, thanks. The ulmiform pores are weaker than I thought. I'll have to take another look. This brings ash back into the realm of possibility although still somewhat unlikely.
> 
> It may come down to the size and spacing of the rays and both of those relative to the pore size. I can't see that in enough detail in this pic, although it's an excellent job of cleanup.



Red mulberry?

Reactions: Like 1


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## phinds (Mar 29, 2020)

Mr. Peet said:


> Red mulberry?


Possible based on end gran but the color seems too light for red mulberry, don't you think?


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 29, 2020)

phinds said:


> Possible based on end gran but the color seems too light for red mulberry, don't you think?



I was thinking White mulberry, but native would be red...but just looked it up. Red stops heading north in the Hudson Valley by Albany. So white would be possible as planted stock turned to firewood.

There is a disjunctive population of Red elm (slippery) in Maine and American elm grows there. However, both have white layers in the bark, not seen in the pictures.

So dimensions say ballpark 54 pounds per cubic foot wet and and 45 as drying. So I figure 43 to 44 is more likely when dry. 43lbs. is spot on with the wood database stats and below is the end grain pic Eric has.

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## rob3232 (Mar 29, 2020)

Mark, 
Do you think the bark is correct for Red Elm??


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## V. Kelly Bellis (Mar 29, 2020)

Note that the ray spacing is about 0.01" and isn't easily discerned with my naked eye; however, with the 4x zoom on my camera, or using a hand lens, the rays are able to be discerned.



 



 

The sapwood is a very pale, nearly white color:


 

Red Mulberry is indicated as _being easily confused with black locust_; however, the listed (ibid) heartwood color for red mulberry doesn't match very well with what's laid out all over my driveway. 

@Mr. Peet - Mark, who is Eric and could you please post a link back to the referenced photo in your previous post?; thanks. The heartwood color in that photo agrees more closely to the subject species.

The unique defining characteristic of black locust fluorescing is a compelling argument as to why the subject species cannot be black locust, or is there some circumstance that contradicts this curious phenomenon?


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## V. Kelly Bellis (Mar 29, 2020)

Never mind - found it: https://www.wood-database.com/mulberry/ and it looks quite convincing!

I'll share this with Graham and maybe he'll chime in :)


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## V. Kelly Bellis (Mar 29, 2020)

My photo approximately scaled to Eric's photo (https://www.wood-database.com/wp-content/uploads/red-mulberry-endgrain.jpg)


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 29, 2020)

rob3232 said:


> Mark,
> Do you think the bark is correct for Red Elm??



No Rob, I was saying that the bark lacked the white layers found in Red and White elm bark. White elm, also called water elm and American elm has it much more prominent of the two.


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## phinds (Mar 29, 2020)

V. Kelly Bellis said:


> My photo approximately scaled to Eric's photo


Not necessarily relevant since growth rate varies greatly within any species. My samples of red hackberry all have ring/inch much lower than Eric's and closer to yours


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 29, 2020)

V. Kelly Bellis said:


> My photo approximately scaled to Eric's photo (https://www.wood-database.com/wp-content/uploads/red-mulberry-endgrain.jpg)
> View attachment 183392



Well, I agree the photo Eric has is a good match, but being you are a good bit farther north than Red mulberry's natural range, I'm going with 'White mulberry'. It's wood often is a shade or two closer to Black locust, and is invasive, thus likely found in old hedge rows and on reverting farms.


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 29, 2020)

phinds said:


> Not necessarily relevant since growth rate varies greatly within any species. My samples of red hackberry all have ring/inch much lower than Eric's and closer to yours



Typo Red mulberry, not hackberry


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## phinds (Mar 29, 2020)

Mr. Peet said:


> Typo Red mulberry, not hackberry


Fixed. Thanks Mark. Tired. Ready for bed. Old. Forgetful. Careless. Did I mention tired?


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 29, 2020)

phinds said:


> Fixed. Thanks Mark. Tired. Ready for bed. Old. Forgetful. Careless. Did I mention tired?



You describing me or you? Sounds like me...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## V. Kelly Bellis (Mar 29, 2020)

I thought that you had ruled out red hackberry due to the "_ulmiform pores are weaker than I thought_"

As for the idea behind approximate scaling, it was more for textural and color context. Yes, indeed, the growth rings vary greatly within any species, particularly as the stress levels spatially transition over a given stretch of ground. I've seen that quite often cutting line.


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 29, 2020)

V. Kelly Bellis said:


> I thought that you had ruled out red hackberry due to the "_ulmiform pores are weaker than I thought_"
> 
> As for the idea behind approximate scaling, it was more for textural and color context. Yes, indeed, the growth rings vary greatly within any species, particularly as the stress levels spatially transition over a given stretch of ground. I've seen that quite often cutting line.



See post 17 & 18, typo, Red mulberry not hackberry...


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## V. Kelly Bellis (Mar 29, 2020)

yep, way past my bedtime.


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 29, 2020)

V. Kelly Bellis said:


> yep, way past my bedtime.



Good night all...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 30, 2020)

V. Kelly Bellis said:


> yep, way past my bedtime.



Vance,

If you have worked mulberry, you know it darkens to a soft brown with direct exposure to sunlight over time. Paul has posted a few good examples in the past. If you check with your cooperative extension (when they re-open), between them and the 'master gardeners' they might be able to provide a more complete list of mulberry species that grow in the area.


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## V. Kelly Bellis (Mar 30, 2020)

Thanks Mark (and Paul, and everybody else that has helped), but I have never knowingly worked with mulberry beyond possibly cutting through it if it was growing on property lines. It's a beautiful wood. Hopefully come the winter of 2021-22 it'll be dry enough to burn.

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## djg (Mar 31, 2020)

What wood was it decide to be? Maybe I didn't read thoroughly enough. The bark doesn't look like the mulberry I have plus it didn't appear to darken with time. Maybe I have another type of mulberry, though. Just been watching with interest.


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 31, 2020)

djg said:


> What wood was it decide to be? Maybe I didn't read thoroughly enough. The bark doesn't look like the mulberry I have plus it didn't appear to darken with time. Maybe I have another type of mulberry, though. Just been watching with interest.



Hey Dan,

Mulberry is like "red oak". If I hand you a piece of wood and say red oak, you can likely agree, red oak family, but not red oak species, as there are several members of the red oak family. When milled, they are all lumped and sold as "red oak".

Mulberry is similar in that there are several species with very similar wood. To add issue, White mulberry was brought to this country and planted nearly everywhere. It is very close genetically to Red mulberry and hybridizes with it. Finding a genetically pure Red mulberry is likely as hard as finding a genetically pure American butternut.

Where you live is the natural range for Red, but farm country is flooded with White, Black and maybe other mulberry species being planted.

Vance just got his mulberry firewood, it needs a few months exposure to noticeably darken. Can't say we pinned his wood for ID other than generically as "mulberry". Is your bark more narrowly fissured like ash? Post a picture. 

And if you get a chance, upload an avatar picture for ID, being the generic one you have is the same for you and several others right now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thank You! 1


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## djg (Mar 31, 2020)

Thanks Mr Peet, I'll try to post pictures today. Not sure if I can get end grain.


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## phinds (Mar 31, 2020)

Mr. Peet said:


> ... there are several members of the red oak family.


Mark is practicing his understatement here. There are at least a couple of hundred.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## V. Kelly Bellis (Mar 31, 2020)

Hi Dan,

The biggest takeaways for me in all of this has been 1) finding this site, 2) the distinct pleasure of meeting Mark Peet and Paul Hinds, 3) finding Paul's _amazing_ warehouse of graphical information at http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/; 4) the other links shown below in support related to wood identification; and 5) getting my first exposure to this area of art & science.

And yes, please, do post a picture (or twelve) of your mulberry. If you go off the deep end, as I'm too apt to do in most things, send photos of end grain as exemplified and explained here: http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_endgrainUPDATE/index.htm

Morus alba is shown to be present in Maine according to  https://gobotany.nativeplanttrust.org/species/morus/alba/, but morus rubra is not shown in Maine  https://gobotany.nativeplanttrust.org/species/morus/rubra/










https://newfs.s3.amazonaws.com/taxon-images-1000s1000/Moraceae/morus-alba-ba-atal.jpg


FYI & FWIW - The link to the online version of _Forest Trees of Maine_ is located  here. Neither _morus alba_ nor _morus rubra_ are included in it. 

The photos of morus rubra at https://www.wood-database.com/mulberry/ are considerably different in color than the photos of morus rubra at https://woodidentification.net/mulberry-2/

The excellent photos taken by and maintained by Paul Hinds at http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/mulberry.htm show a fairly broad range in colorings for morus rubra. And as both Mark and Paul note, time and UV play a significant role in chromatic variations for a given sample. Paul's photos of morus alba are very close to the photos that I have taken of the firewood that Graham Mallory delivered last week. Graham indicated that the wood (which he believed to be black locust) was cleared from an area near Rockland, Maine which geographically agrees with the BONAP data. Kartesz, J.T., The Biota of North America Program (BONAP). 2015. _North American Plant Atlas._ (http://bonap.net/napa). Chapel Hill, N.C. [maps generated from Kartesz, J.T. 2015. Floristic Synthesis of North America, Version 1.0. Biota of North America Program (BONAP)

Based upon these findings, my _preliminary_ determination is that the subject wood is: family: moraceae, genus: morus (mulberry); subspecies: alba; i.e., white mulberry. If I ever hear back from the USDA Forest Service, Forest Products Laboratory in Madison, WI, I may try sending a sample to their labs for a final determination.

http://bonap.net/MapGallery/County/Morus alba.png

Species morus alba exotic and present





http://www.bonap.org/MapKey.html:

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Informative 1


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 31, 2020)

V. Kelly Bellis said:


> Hi Dan,
> 
> The biggest takeaways for me in all of this has been 1) finding this site, 2) the distinct pleasure of meeting Mark Peet and Paul Hinds, 3) finding Paul's _amazing_ warehouse of graphical information at http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/; 4) the other links shown below in support related to wood identification; and 5) getting my first exposure to this area of art & science.
> 
> ...



The USDA Madison station has a new guy doing ID, I doubt very, very much, you would get more than simply "Morus species".

White was my gut feeling and based on your research, am more confident in such.


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 31, 2020)

phinds said:


> Mark is practicing his understatement here. There are at least a couple of hundred.



I said several based on common availability. You are correct, but meant more along the line of what he'd fine at the local hardware and lumber provider. "Red" in his area would be most likely, red oak, black oak, pin oak and scarlet oak and maybe, but doubt, willow oak.


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## phinds (Mar 31, 2020)

Mr. Peet said:


> I said several based on common availability. You are correct, but meant more along the line of what he'd fine at the local hardware and lumber provider. "Red" in his area would be most likely, red oak, black oak, pin oak and scarlet oak and maybe, but doubt, willow oak.


Yeah, I know. I just can't help but nitpick.


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## djg (Apr 4, 2020)

Just a few photos of the mulberry that I found. I 'Think' it's white Mulberry after 'just skimming' Paul's site. Good heavens can't believe the volume of data on that site. It would have taken me a couple of hours to thorough go through all the mulberries. I sure it was a big investment of time to put together the site. Wow!.

No end grain shot; may try later just for the fun of it.
I mainly try to identify species by bark, color, smell and leaves when present for firewood cutting purposes. I don't like wasting my time on softwoods. Several times I started cutting into sweet gum think it was oak. They look similar to me.

The first photo shows the darkened wood and the bark of the smaller diameter logs (branches). The base piece in the background on the right, I first thought was Bk Locus. But now I'm thinking it's just the bark of the trunk.

The second photo shows fresh cut end grain.


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## phinds (Apr 4, 2020)

djg said:


> I sure it was a big investment of time to put together the site.


You are a master of understatement


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## phinds (Apr 4, 2020)

Dan, are you sure that's mulberry. I mean this REALLY looks like black locust


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## djg (Apr 4, 2020)

No, I'm not 100% sure; I've miss identified wood before. I do believe the tree guy indicated it was, though. The Bk locust I've run into didn't look the same as this.
For fun of it, I guess you could differentiate between the two by end grain photos? I don't have a working black light (maybe I can fix it).


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## barry richardson (Apr 4, 2020)

The bark is wrong for black locust, which has very a very distinctive bark pattern...

Reactions: Informative 1


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## phinds (Apr 4, 2020)

barry richardson said:


> The bark is wrong for black locust, which has very a very distinctive bark pattern...


Thanks, Barry. As I always point out, I leave the barking to the dog and Mark Peet.


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## Mr. Peet (Apr 4, 2020)

phinds said:


> Thanks, Barry. As I always point out, I leave the barking to the dog and Mark Peet.



Woof, woof. White mulberry.

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## V. Kelly Bellis (Apr 6, 2020)

Hi Dan,

Thanks for posting these photos!

It is probably too early in your area's spring for some of these, but there are other identifiers for robina pseudoacacia (black locust) that are worth noting - see attached PDF, but the most decisive identifiers is the fluoresce test - see DIY blacklight videos on YouTube. 

There is also the weight test. As of today, the little block that I cut 9 days ago, have had sitting above my woodstove, and originally measured as being 0.00799 cubic feet, now weighs about 5.5 ounces which translates to about 43 lbs/ft3; i.e., a minimum of 5 lbs too light for black locust. My little block has stayed at this weight for the past 3 days, while noting that my postal scale only measures to the nearest 5 grams/ 0.5 ounce. 

Since I don't own a moisture content meter, I began reading on the principles on how they work in wood. A good article by William L. James is attached, thought it's last revision was in 1988. The block also has (4) 1.25" 18 ga. brads driven into it (for impedance tests) with a fifth brad glued on the face as reference. Not a big weighty addition, but still worth noting. The first 2 brads I drove flush parallel with the grain (axial). The second pair I drove at right angles (radially) allowing them to protrude above the surface for the convenience of using alligator clips on the multimeter's leads. 







 

These first experiments to try and see if I could determine the moisture content using my digital multimeter were inconclusive and not at all exhaustive. I was hoping to find, and maybe will try looking again at some later point after I've stacked the firewood, an online calculator, or any free software, where the following givens could be entered:

Species: unknown/ known
Wood Temperature:
Orientation of electrodes with wood grain: end grain/ axial/ radial

Depth of electrodes:
Distance between electrodes:
Megohms measured:

*Cartoon thought bubble*: A second experiment's postulate: _could species identification be enhanced by including electrical data?_ 
Seems almost embarrassing to even mention this (but I'm old and don't care), particularly given how widespread soils conditions range and other environmental factors might influence the salient chemistry. 

If I start drying wood at home, nothing big mind you, I suppose I'll buy a _moisture meter for wood_, but only after listening to all of the sage voices here at Wood Barter!

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Informative 1


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