# mystery wood from mike1950



## phinds (Jan 17, 2016)

Mike sent me a piece of his mystery wood that first surfaced in this thread: http://woodbarter.com/threads/claro.25112/#post-319524

Mike, I got the wood on Friday and have started my analysis but I have not finished it and my son is coming in to visit for a few days starting in about an hour and I won't likely get back to this for a while so I though I'd post what I have so far. I have only done the end grain pic but will add a full set later.

The end grain characteristics of your wood are:

The pinkish tint in the end grain closeup is due to the piece having been fine-sanded right next to a piece of redheart, with fine redheart dust thus embedding itself in the end grain of this piece.

Strong, continuous marginal parenchyma lines with not a hint of fuzziness and they show up very strongly and clearly on the face grain

Obvious vasicentric parenchyma in addition to the marginal parenchyma lines, but not the slightest hint and any other kind of parenchyma constructs. The lack of other visible parenchyma is unusual.

Pore spacing moderate to sparse, occasional pore doubles occur but are sparse. Rare instances of pore triples might be there; I can't tell.

No visible rays.

The combination of lack of visible rays and lack of any parenchyma other than simple vasicentric and marginal, makes for a bland background for the pores that is quite unusual.

Such unusual characteristics should make it easy to identify but so far that's not panning out. Could be it's a species that I don't have a sample of and also could be (but, I think, less likely) the end grain processing didn't give a clean enough surface to show the other parenchyma and/or rays. I'm really doubtful about that 2nd possibility because I was very meticulous in the end grain processing and the other pieces that were done in the same batch came out just fine.

Anyway, bottom line is that the only thing I can find that is even close is gaboon (aka okoume). Both the face grain and the end grain of gaboon look like this wood, but I'm not convinced that's what it is because down at the micro level, gaboon marginal parenchyma is not as solid or sharp as the mystery wood either in the end grain closeups or on the face grain and although gaboon has the same pore distribution as this wood, gaboon pores are slightly larger and there are somewhat more frequent pore multiples. I need to look at it further but as I said, I'm doubtful that it's gaboon, I just mention gaboon because I haven't found anything else even close so far. Take a look at the gaboon pics on my site and see what you think about how they compare to this wood.

Here's your pieces end grain and then a couple of gaboon. These are 1/4" square end grain cross sections and will show here at about 12X depending on your monitor. Whenever I'm analyzing a sample I crop out a section where the pores are most dense and another were they are least dense, so that's why there are two pics of your pieces. The two gaboon pics are from different samples.



 


your piece



 


two different pieces of gaboon

More to follow ...

Reactions: Way Cool 4 | Informative 1 | Useful 1


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## Mike1950 (Jan 17, 2016)

This tree grew in america- it has brothers and sisters growing tucked away on a farm in SW washington. Not Native to the area. There is a 4' one down the road from where this one was.

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## Mike1950 (Jan 17, 2016)

Ok- Looked in the shop found the cutoffs from Josh, PM blank. They have sap- heartwood and bark. I was under the weather last week and on the off chance I threw  the wrong piece in box I will send another sample. @Mr. Peet send me your address also I have 2 SFR's with matching samples....

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Mr. Peet (Jan 17, 2016)

Mike, just put my name on it and put it in Paul's box if it fits and will save you money. I'm hoping to stop in at Paul's in the next 2-3 weeks to drop off some "olive grained" American white ash for photographing.

Did we discuss "Butternut" as an option? Reason I ask, butternut is common for having double peaks in cathedral cuts. See in your first 2 pictures, picture one has inverted cathedral graining with multiple peaks as does the right side up picture 2. Species like ash typically have a single peaked cap when you have cathedral graining on the tangential face.


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## phinds (Jan 17, 2016)

Mark is spot on about the fluted grain in your wood looking like butternut. I had ruled out butternut because the face grain did not look at all like butternut and also there was no hint of grain fluting and to cap it off, the first end grain pic I looked at of butternut pretty clearly did not look the same as your wood ... BUT ... I see I jumped the gun. I re-checked and the very next sample of mine has an end grain nearly identical to yours except for the fact that it clearly shows diffuse in aggregate parenchyma.




butternut

I still need to look into this more but butternut certainly seems like a strong candidate.


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## Mike1950 (Jan 17, 2016)

Mr. Peet said:


> Mike, just put my name on it and put it in Paul's box if it fits and will save you money. I'm hoping to stop in at Paul's in the next 2-3 weeks to drop off some "olive grained" American white ash for photographing.
> 
> Did we discuss "Butternut" as an option? Reason I ask, butternut is common for having double peaks in cathedral cuts. See in your first 2 pictures, picture one has inverted cathedral graining with multiple peaks as does the right side up picture 2. Species like ash typically have a single peaked cap when you have cathedral graining on the tangential face.


 Already boxed in SFR- cost is virtually the same.


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## Mike1950 (Jan 17, 2016)

I think sample I am sending will be much better to ID.


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## Kevin (Jan 18, 2016)

I also wondered about butternut since Mike was so confident it wasn't walnut, but I don't have any experience with it. I just have heard butternut often can look like KD walnut that hasn't been through a steam cycle.


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## jmurray (Jan 20, 2016)

I've turned some kd butternut when I was first starting out. My daughter kept all my duds to use with her fake kitchen/ food sets. I looked at the two together and the colors pretty far apart. 
Certainly smells like its in the walnut family though?


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## Mike1950 (Jan 20, 2016)

Paul should get much better samples tomorrow. They are cut offs from Josh's PM blanks.


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## phinds (Jan 21, 2016)

Mike, the box just arrived. Thanks. I won't be able to get to it in detail for a while but I noticed right off that these pieces definitely have fluted grain. I'll be really interested to see how the end grain looks in detail. The color and face grain don't really look like butternut to me, but I can't rule it out yet and it may turn out to BE butternut although I'll be a bit surprised if it does. I went back through my butternut pics last night and all of them clearly show diffuse in aggregate parenchyma, which your first sample does not, as I mentioned at the start of this thread.


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## Mike1950 (Jan 21, 2016)

phinds said:


> Mike, the box just arrived. Thanks. I won't be able to get to it in detail for a while but I noticed right off that these pieces definitely have fluted grain. I'll be really interested to see how the end grain looks in detail. The color and face grain don't really look like butternut to me, but I can't rule it out yet and it may turn out to BE butternut although I'll be a bit surprised if it does. I went back through my butternut pics last night and all of them clearly show diffuse in aggregate parenchyma, which your first sample does not, as I mentioned at the start of this thread.



Thanks for the update Paul. It would surprise me for it to be butternut. I know what I was told and still think but will wait for your answer. Thanks.


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## Mike1950 (Jan 25, 2016)

OK I would like to point you in a direction on this wood and give you reason why.
Quote - Huge planted chestnut trees can be found inSherwood, Oregon, as the Mediterranean climate of the West Coast is not conducive to the spread of the fungus, which relies on hot, humid summer weather. American chestnut thrives as far north as Revelstoke, British Columbia. Although large trees are currently rare east of theMississippi River, it exists in pockets in the blight-free West, where the habitat was agreeable for planting: settlers brought seeds for American chestnut with them in the 19th century. At present, it is believed that survival of _C. dentata_ for more than a decade in its native range is almost impossible. 

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_chestnut

or http://cookingupastory.com/one-of-the-largest-remaining-american-chestnut-trees-in-north-america

This is where this wood came from. Not the biggest tree there either. This one I have is not near as big as the almost 4' healthy tree still standing on a very isolated farm.... 

This is a very subtle hint  of what I believe it is....


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## phinds (Jan 25, 2016)

Well, I can tell you for sure that it's not chestnut, which is very obviously ring porous and has very clear dendritic pore groups. Your wood is semi diffuse porous and has no dendritic groups

Here's a piece of American chestnut, one of Chinese chestnut, and your wood:





I hope make further progress on your wood tomorrow, when it is supposed to get above freezing in my unheated garage for the first time in a week or more.

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## Mr. Peet (Jan 25, 2016)

Mike, not to mix apples and oranges, additionally, I have not looked at your links yet, so take the following with a grain of salt and a pinch of whiskey:

The Mediterranean climate is not favorable for growing American Chestnut. It tends to do best where freezing temperatures are for longer durations than that of the Mediterranean. Now, conversely, there are several varieties of European Sweet Chestnut that do well in Oregon in the coastal regions for similarities with that of southern Europe. The European Chestnut is the most similar to the American chestnut out of all the non-north American species in the _Castanea_ genus.

However, it also has the "dendritic pore groups" Paul mentioned. Mike, I hope to stop in at Paul's within 2 weeks. I realize it can be a long wait but the 120 mile trec has to coordinate with my schedule and the weather conditions.


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## Mike1950 (Jan 25, 2016)

Mr. Peet said:


> Mike, not to mix apples and oranges, additionally, I have not looked at your links yet, so take the following with a grain of salt and a pinch of whiskey:
> 
> The Mediterranean climate is not favorable for growing American Chestnut. It tends to do best where freezing temperatures are for longer durations than that of the Mediterranean. Now, conversely, there are several varieties of European Sweet Chestnut that do well in Oregon in the coastal regions for similarities with that of southern Europe. The European Chestnut is the most similar to the American chestnut out of all the non-north American species in the _Castanea_ genus.
> 
> However, it also has the "dendritic pore groups" Paul mentioned. Mike, I hope to stop in at Paul's within 2 weeks. I realize it can be a long wait but the 120 mile trec has to coordinate with my schedule and the weather conditions.



Maybe read some of the article. I only quoted a little from one. I am in no hurry. PS. if you have been to oregon- It is not quite what I personally would call a Mediterranean climate by any means but trees there and in southeast wash were planted in the 1850's


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## phinds (Jan 26, 2016)

I got the new pieces processed today and I have slightly better end grain pics than on the first piece, but the characteristics are still the same, with the exception that I found one area on one piece where the rays are visible at 10X with my level of sanding (1200 grit). Here's a sanded face grain, an unsanded end grain, and two new end grain pics. You can see rays flakes in the upper right corner of the face and the end grain right next to that is where I got the end grain shot that shows the rays clearly.







 

 



I think it's butternut. The face grain just doesn't look like butternut to me, but that's the only thing the end grain matches, and it matches quite well except for the lack of visible diffuse in aggregate parenchyma. Also in the end grain shot you can see the grain fluting that Mark pointed out earlier and butternut, walnut, and basswood are the only woods I can think of that have it and this is definitely not basswood and butternut is much more likely than walnut.

EDIT: OK, I went back and looked more carefully at the face grain pics on my butternut page and I do now see a couple that look like very close matches to this wood so I'm even more convinced that it's butternut.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thank You! 1


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## SENC (Jan 26, 2016)

Don't overlook the source, guys. Knowing , he could have harvested this wood from a species now long extinct!

Reactions: Great Post 1 | Funny 4


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## Mike1950 (Jan 26, 2016)

SENC said:


> Don't overlook the source, guys. Knowing , he could have harvested this wood from a species now long extinct!



VERY funny!!!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mr. Peet (Jan 26, 2016)

I took a moment to look over the links Mike posted earlier. Doing so has not changed my mind on anything I have posted in this thread. The video link only reinforced it with statements and photography. There are several Oregon trees that have been hailed as American, to DNA test as American hybrids and or back-crosses. There are a few still waiting for results to be published. I agree, the West holds a few relict American Chestnut trees worth seeing. Glad Paul found time to look into your samples more. Still, a beautiful wood to work with.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kevin (Jan 27, 2016)

SENC said:


> Don't overlook the source, guys. Knowing , he could have harvested this wood from a species now long extinct!



Extinct? That's a curious word to use when referring to

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Mike1950 (Jan 27, 2016)

Kevin said:


> Extinct? That's a curious word to use when referring to



WHATTTT!!! Pikin on the ol guy huh- gangin up- Nice thing about bein old- Ya know how ta get even....

Reactions: Useful 1


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## phinds (Feb 7, 2016)

@Mike1950, Mark (@Mr. Peet) stopped by recently and looked at it and thinks it's either a butternut hybrid or, more likely, Japanese walnut. I meant to post this info right after he was here but forgot. Mark, chime in if I'm remembering that incorrectly.


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## Mike1950 (Feb 7, 2016)

phinds said:


> @Mike1950, Mark (@Mr. Peet) stopped by recently and looked at it and thinks it's either a butternut hybrid or, more likely, Japanese walnut. I meant to post this info right after he was here but forgot. Mark, chime in if I'm remembering that incorrectly.



Thanks


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