# Pricing for neighborhood Ash processing



## andy close (Oct 2, 2017)

My father and I have taken down several Ash trees for neighbors in my father's neighborhood that were killed by EAB :( Instead of turning all of them into firewood, I've been looking to have them turned into lumber. I found a local sawmill that's ~20 minutes away that said they'd transport and mill the logs we had for ~$1500, but that was an estimate as actual saw time was charged hourly. so that number could creep upwards if milling took longer.
I used the Log Volume calculator on woodweb.com to calculate that I have ~600 bd/ft of Ash at the moment.

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl

Scale: Scribner Diameter: 14.0000" Length: 7' Quantity: 1 Bd/Ft: 50 *Bd/Ft subtotal: 50*
Scale: Scribner Diameter: 14.0000" Length: 5' Quantity: 1 Bd/Ft: 40 *Bd/Ft subtotal: 90*
Scale: Scribner Diameter: 14.0000" Length: 7' Quantity: 1 Bd/Ft: 50 *Bd/Ft subtotal: 140*
Scale: Scribner Diameter: 13.0000" Length: 6' Quantity: 1 Bd/Ft: 40 *Bd/Ft subtotal: 180*
Scale: Scribner Diameter: 10.0000" Length: 5' Quantity: 1 Bd/Ft: 20 *Bd/Ft subtotal: 200*
Scale: Scribner Diameter: 13.0000" Length: 4' Quantity: 1 Bd/Ft: 30 *Bd/Ft subtotal: 230*
Scale: Scribner Diameter: 12.0000" Length: 4' Quantity: 1 Bd/Ft: 20 *Bd/Ft subtotal: 250*
Scale: Scribner Diameter: 10.0000" Length: 4' Quantity: 1 Bd/Ft: 10 *Bd/Ft subtotal: 260*
Scale: Scribner Diameter: 16.0000" Length: 6' Quantity: 1 Bd/Ft: 60 *Bd/Ft subtotal: 320*
Scale: Scribner Diameter: 10.0000" Length: 5' Quantity: 1 Bd/Ft: 20 *Bd/Ft subtotal: 340*
Scale: Scribner Diameter: 9.0000" Length: 5' Quantity: 1 Bd/Ft: 10 *Bd/Ft subtotal: 350*
Scale: Scribner Diameter: 12.0000" Length: 13' Quantity: 1 Bd/Ft: 70 *Bd/Ft subtotal: 420*
Scale: Scribner Diameter: 15.0000" Length: 14' Quantity: 1 Bd/Ft: 130 *Bd/Ft subtotal: 550*
Scale: Scribner Diameter: 7.0000" Length: 6' Quantity: 1 Bd/Ft: 10 *Bd/Ft subtotal: 560*
Scale: Scribner Diameter: 8.0000" Length: 6' Quantity: 1 Bd/Ft: 10 *Bd/Ft subtotal: 570

*
That $1500 price seemed a bit high to me, considering a couple hardwood dealers have pricing for ~600 bd/ft of kiln dried Ash at ~$2000. (that doesn't really take into account thickness & length, I just picked the largest $/bdft for Ash)
I'm just curious as to what pricing is like at other sawmills making the assumption that the mill would be doing the log transport and the distance between logs and mill is ~30 mins.

Thanks!


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## Ralph Muhs (Oct 2, 2017)

A few things to consider:
1. Are the logs good quality? I doubt it since they are short and small diameter
2. What do you want? 2" thick. 3" thick. 1" thick? Obviously the sawyer makes more per board ft if he saws thicker lumber
3. Some sawyer get more lumber from a log than others. Is the bd ft price for sawed lumber on the truck, or estimated lumber in the log? 
4. Here in WV I can get lumber sawed for 20 cents a bd ft, if I help. And that is lumber off the mill. About $.50 if I just buy it from a sawmill guy. 
5. Keep in mind, your lumber will be green and wet and will have to be dried


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## Sprung (Oct 2, 2017)

I do not have a mill or any experience with milling, but my thought as to why he might be pricing you high is that you have 15 logs, all smaller diameter and many shorter in length. He might end up having to make two trips to haul all the logs, depending on what size of trailer he has. And with that many logs, even smaller, there's going to be a lot of down time between logs getting the next one set in place - with a bunch of small logs, he may very well spend more time wrangling logs than actually running the mill. Also, if they're yard trees, he might be bumping the price even more to compensate for any potential blade damage if a nail or other metal object is hit.

At $1500 to get wood milled that you'll still have to dry and will possibly have some loss in drying, you're almost to the point where you can buy it retail and already kiln dried. Or you're about half way to a small, portable mill.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## andy close (Oct 3, 2017)

Ralph Muhs said:


> A few things to consider:
> 1. Are the logs good quality? I doubt it since they are short and small diameter
> 2. What do you want? 2" thick. 3" thick. 1" thick? Obviously the sawyer makes more per board ft if he saws thicker lumber
> 3. Some sawyer get more lumber from a log than others. Is the bd ft price for sawed lumber on the truck, or estimated lumber in the log?
> ...



1. _I _think so, but I'm not sure that counts as I'm not a sawyer 
2. I told him I was thinking most of it would be slabbed between 6/4 & 8/4. The rest would be 4/4.
3. no idea.
5. The three Ash trees have been standing dead for ~3 years now. They still need to be dried, but they're not green. I wasn't looking for lumber that could be used immediately, so waiting a year or so for it to stabilize & dry to usable MC is fine.


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## andy close (Oct 3, 2017)

Sprung said:


> I do not have a mill or any experience with milling, but my thought as to why he might be pricing you high is that you have 15 logs, all smaller diameter and many shorter in length. He might end up having to make two trips to haul all the logs, depending on what size of trailer he has. And with that many logs, even smaller, there's going to be a lot of down time between logs getting the next one set in place - with a bunch of small logs, he may very well spend more time wrangling logs than actually running the mill. Also, if they're yard trees, he might be bumping the price even more to compensate for any potential blade damage if a nail or other metal object is hit.
> 
> At $1500 to get wood milled that you'll still have to dry and will possibly have some loss in drying, you're almost to the point where you can buy it retail and already kiln dried. Or you're about half way to a small, portable mill.



heh, if I knew I was gonna be able to do this on a regular basis, I'd seriously consider a portable mill. I did start looking into Alaskan Chainsaw Mill options. even buying a larger chainsaw and manufactured ACM would be less than the cost at this sawmill.


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## Ralph Muhs (Oct 3, 2017)

The $.50 per board ft mentioned above would be if I brought the logs to him or if he brought the mill to my logs, all ready to put on his mill, but without me helping saw them. There is a lot of work involved in getting logs from standing to the mill, especially big ones. For 16 ft 1 X 12 hemlock lumber, I recently had a price of $ 1.20 per bd ft. Delivery not included. 

I see you are in Illinois. A guy in southern Illinois made my mill. It is ok but I wouldn't want to saw for others. Sometimes my lumber is thick and thin, especially when the band saw blade begins to get dull. But for me and for my uses it is ok. That is why I have a planer. I have built two houses and two huge workshops with the lumber. 

If you are interested in his name, I can get it. My mill cost $3000 and came with two new blades and a can't hook. It wouldn't make sense unless you plan to saw much more lumber than you presently have.


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## Ralph Muhs (Oct 3, 2017)

PS. Do not stack and stick lumber under a tarp!


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## sprucegum (Oct 3, 2017)

I'm seeing a lot of small short logs in your list, I'm surprised that a commercial mill would touch anything under 8' long. Perhaps that is why the price is high. It would be a better lot for a portable mill and even then they might bock at short logs. I really hate sawing logs under 6' in length as they are harder to hold on the mill. If it is milled with a bandmill you will gain a considerable amount over log scale if the sawyer is doing a good job. If the timber is nice and I'm feeling like skinning a fart I will gain a solid 25% crap logs and a bad day not so much.


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## woodtickgreg (Oct 3, 2017)

3 year standing dead ash is going to have bugs in it, it will need to be killned to kill the powder post Beatles and other vermin.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Schroedc (Oct 3, 2017)

Might want to post on Craigslist in your area and see if anyone with a portable mill might be in your area. Some will cut for an hourly rate if it's a hobbyist. I'm wondering if that commercial mill quoted that high price figuring they didn't want that job BUT if you hired them they'll make good money on it. 

Being Ash it will need to be kiln dried to kill any bugs and that will add to the cost.

By the time you add it all up it might be more cost effective to buy lumber already milled and dry. It seems like a waste to pass on those logs but unless they have a sentimental attachment turning them into bowl blanks quick and dirty with a chainsaw might be the best use for them.


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## andy close (Oct 4, 2017)

Schroedc said:


> Might want to post on Craigslist in your area and see if anyone with a portable mill might be in your area. Some will cut for an hourly rate if it's a hobbyist. I'm wondering if that commercial mill quoted that high price figuring they didn't want that job BUT if you hired them they'll make good money on it.



I hadn't thought of posting on Craigslist for portable mills/sawyers. I'll see if anyone bites.
I did get a quote from another mill, $0.30 per bd/ft, but they can only work with 7'+ logs. Unfortunately I didn't realize length would be an issue and cut them to the rough size I wanted them. n00bie mistake.



Schroedc said:


> Being Ash it will need to be kiln dried to kill any bugs and that will add to the cost.



They were definitely infested with Emerald Ash Borers. I haven't seen any signs of other inhabitants yet though; granted, that doesn't mean they aren't there. :)


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## FarmerMike (Oct 8, 2017)

I'm out by Rockford. Took some logs to Kirkland this summer and will definitely work with them again. I don't know if they can mill shorter lengths though. Mine were 9-10 ft. You'd also have to haul them there.

I also got sick of seeing small logs go to waste, so I finally ordered a little band mill. Figure on using it for stuff that would be too much of a bother for the big guys. Will still take bigger logs to Kirkland.


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## andy close (Oct 8, 2017)

FarmerMike said:


> I'm out by Rockford. Took some logs to Kirkland this summer and will definitely work with them again. I don't know if they can mill shorter lengths though. Mine were 9-10 ft. You'd also have to haul them there.
> 
> I also got sick of seeing small logs go to waste, so I finally ordered a little band mill. Figure on using it for stuff that would be too much of a bother for the big guys. Will still take bigger logs to Kirkland.



Kirkland is great, but about an hour away and I don’t have a way to load and haul logs. They can/will only mill up logs over 7’. I’ll remember that next time. 
I’m considering picking up an Alaskan mill I saw on Craigslist and going that route. To my eyes, that wood is too good to become firewood.

Reactions: Like 1


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## FarmerMike (Oct 8, 2017)

Agree 100% on trying to save it from the burn pile. I've got similar sized dead ash piled up waiting for my mill.


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## woodtickgreg (Oct 8, 2017)

An Alaskan works for me, I have had one for many years that has provided me with lots of great FREE wood. but be forewarned, there is a learning curve to them, and be prepared for some seriously hard physical work! The first few boards you cut in a day will be easy, but by the end of a day of milling your body will be seriously fatigued. But it is a great way to salvage wood, you don't have to move a heavy log, you just need can't hooks to roll em around, getting one end elevated and milling down hill helps a lot. You bring the mill to the log, not the log to the mill, and you remove the log one board at a time. Storing the mill is easy, you can just hang it in the garage or stash it under a bench or put it on a shelf. But you will need a large powerhead for milling and that can be costly. the bigger the log and longer the bar the more power you will need.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## andy close (Oct 8, 2017)

I did read that a bigger, more powerful saw is recommended; especially with wider logs. Im not sure what the power rating is on my father’s Stihl, but we’ll probably try that initially & see how it goes. We can practice on the thinner logs, so it won’t be quite as hard on the saw or us. 
Any recommendations on YouTube videos for good practices with an Alaskan mill? I’ve seen quite a few, very questionable, chainsaw videos that make me, a n00bie, scratch my head & wonder if they’re really doing it right/safely.


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## woodtickgreg (Oct 8, 2017)

I don't really have any recommendations for videos on youtube, other than maybe Matt Cremona. He chainsaw milled in his earlier vids, but since then he has built a huge! electric bandmill.


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## andy close (Oct 8, 2017)

Lol, love Matt’s videos. I’ll see if I can dig up some of the older milling videos he may have done.


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## sprucegum (Oct 8, 2017)

Pretty hard to beat these little guys https://www.hud-son.com/products/product-detail/sawyer-sawmill. You can't much more than buy a Alaskan mill and a big enough saw to run it for the price. The Alaskan does have the advantage of being able to mill bigger logs. I have one of their bigger mills and other than the Vanguard engine that came on it I have been happy and even that is going better now that I have figured out that it just will not work well on ethanol gas. Fortunately 2 local stations are now selling the real stuff.


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## andy close (Oct 8, 2017)

If I knew I was going to be taking down trees regularly, or have access to decent logs, I would be all over something like that.


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## woodtickgreg (Oct 8, 2017)

You might find a couple of these threads interesting. I think this was a 4 day get together.

https://woodbarter.com/threads/milling-duckwood-day-1.8851/

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mike1950 (Oct 8, 2017)

sprucegum said:


> Pretty hard to beat these little guys https://www.hud-son.com/products/product-detail/sawyer-sawmill. You can't much more than buy a Alaskan mill and a big enough saw to run it for the price. The Alaskan does have the advantage of being able to mill bigger logs. I have one of their bigger mills and other than the Vanguard engine that came on it I have been happy and even that is going better now that I have figured out that it just will not work well on ethanol gas. Fortunately 2 local stations are now selling the real stuff.



I am lucky I have real gas a few blocks away. Works do much better in small engines...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## sprucegum (Oct 8, 2017)

andy close said:


> If I knew I was going to be taking down trees regularly, or have access to decent logs, I would be all over something like that.




If you figure that it is hard to find decent hardwood lumber under $2/ft one does not have to mill much to break even. Probably cost you $2500 for the mill & some blades so a couple thousand ft and you in the black. Of course you need to figure all of the angles like how much wood you can use or sell, how much room you have,& how much free time you have. There are always free logs available if you go out and look for them. These little bandmills will make premo lumber out of stuff that commercial mills wont look at. I milled a half rotten crooked cherry log into 2" slabs last week and sold it yesterday for a Ben Franklin, the guy that bought it said I don't need it but I could not pass on such a great deal.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## andy close (Oct 28, 2017)

Well, I was able to find a sawyer through https://woodmizer.com/us/Services/Find-a-Local-Sawyer. Thank you to whomever suggested that. :)
Gary Carstens from Carstens Millworks came out yesterday and we slabbed everything up. Two of the larger logs were cut to 8/4, two others to 6/4, and the remainder to 5/4. My father & I were able to get everything stacked and stickered out of the way on the back of his property. I now have more ash than I know what to do with. :D

I do have a couple questions that I'm hoping can be easily answered by our knowledgeable community.

- What is your process for making stickers, and what do you use (material, thickness, etc)?
I've read that you ideally want to use the same wood that you're stacking for your stickers to help eliminate staining. I used scrap pine as I had an abundance of 1/2" thick scrap.

- Does sticker stain penetrate deep enough that the machining process doesn't remove it? Or is that dependent on the type of wood that has been stained?
I'm guessing open grained woods will stain deeper than closed grain woods. So my ash may stain deeper than maple might...?

- Is there anything I should do to help prevent any additional insect damage/infestation considering I'm air drying outside?
One of the logs had a nice sized termite cavity in the center of it. Too bad I don't do casting (yet), it would be pretty sweet.

- Should I cover the top of my stack (with plenty of breathing room) to prevent leaves, rain, snow from getting down in between the lumber?
I can't really put up a lean-to that will survive the winter winds, but I could put pallets around & on top of the stack and tarp them down allowing for good air flow between the tarp & lumber.

Thanks!


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## andy close (Oct 28, 2017)

Here is a photo of my lumber stack. There are actually another five logs now stacked on top of this. I had to get a photo before it got dark & my phone died. 
All boards are stickered with 1/2" pine stickers. There are stickers between the ties on the bottom and the boards above. This location is pretty open and gets a nice breeze off the river throughout the year.

Reactions: Like 2 | EyeCandy! 1 | Way Cool 2


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## sprucegum (Oct 28, 2017)

Dry stickers are best but I often use the edgings from the boards but since you had it milled live edge that is not a option. looks like a nice supply to have on hand.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## woodtickgreg (Oct 29, 2017)

Idealy 1" is best for stickers to allow for air flow. I often just use 3/4" pine for stickers but I usually sticker and stack indoors for drying. I would tarp off the stack and weight the top down if you can to help prevent warpage as it dries. Most important thing is this is ash and the bugs love it! I would take the time to restack it and spray it down with bora care to prevent powder post beetle infestation.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## andy close (Oct 29, 2017)

Stack is now strapped along the stickers to help preven warping. We stacked several pallets on top and covered it with a tarp to keep the birds, leaves & misc debris from settling on top. There is still plenty of airflow. I still need to find some borax big bomb to help keep out pests.

Reactions: Way Cool 4


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## Mr. Peet (Oct 29, 2017)

andy close said:


> Stack is now strapped along the stickers to help preven warping. We stacked several pallets on top and covered it with a tarp to keep the birds, leaves & misc debris from settling on top. There is still plenty of airflow. I still need to find some borax big bomb to help keep out pests.
> 
> View attachment 136333


That damn pile is too high to see the geese in the back ground... What else you have in that piece of water?


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## woodtickgreg (Oct 30, 2017)

That's a real nice stack! Didn't know you had banding, that's a great idea


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## andy close (Oct 30, 2017)

Harbor Freight had a sale on those 2” x 27’ straps, so I bought 5. Hopefully they’ll help. The stack seemed quite solid before, now it’s even more so.


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## andy close (Jun 18, 2018)

Ash pile update 
The pile where it was initially stacked was only temporary. My father had wanted to add a roof overhang to the back of his barn to store misc. tools & _stuff_ under that didn't need to be stored indoors. There was plenty of room under the roof for the Ash pile, so we spent a day debarking & cleaning up the Ash as we re-stacked it. I didn't see any signs of _new_ bug activity when inspecting the boards but did take the time to spray everything down with borax as it was re-stacked. The boards haven't developed any noticeable warping or cupping but do have some checking; although, not enough to ruin any of the projects I have planned for this wood. Overall I'm very pleased with how things are looking. I picked out a handful of 4/4 & milled it up to be glued into 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" beams for an apple cider press I'll be building. They look really sharp. 
I'm itching to dig into the pile & get started on some other projects but the lumber still has a bit of drying left to do. Any recommendations on a moisture meter that won't break the bank?

Reactions: Way Cool 3


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## Mr. Peet (Jun 18, 2018)

Break the bank. If you plan on doing woodworking for years to come, worth spending the cash now for something good.

Be sure to seal the ash well after your press is built. Ash can wick a lot, and cider being a food product, you want to limit mold possibilities. That is why many presses used white oak, wick issues are minimal. They avoided laminates because the glues of the day did not hold up well to constant moisture also. Buying 16/4 ash has become expensive over the last ten years. We wet the press well with water first, so if it wicks, it is water, that way we don't lose any apple to the wood. After a bit of drying, we rinse with a Clorox mix 1 or 2 times. Your meter will come in handy here too. Making sure the press is dried well before putting it in storage. Good luck...


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## andy close (Jun 18, 2018)

Mr. Peet said:


> Break the bank. If you plan on doing woodworking for years to come, worth spending the cash now for something good.
> 
> Be sure to seal the ash well after your press is built. Ash can wick a lot, and cider being a food product, you want to limit mold possibilities. That is why many presses used white oak, wick issues are minimal. They avoided laminates because the glues of the day did not hold up well to constant moisture also. Buying 16/4 ash has become expensive over the last ten years. We wet the press well with water first, so if it wicks, it is water, that way we don't lose any apple to the wood. After a bit of drying, we rinse with a Clorox mix 1 or 2 times. Your meter will come in handy here too. Making sure the press is dried well before putting it in storage. Good luck...



Thanks, @Mr. Peet 
What do you recommend sealing the press with? I was initially going to finish the press with Danish Oil for a bit of penetration & then go over it with several coats of polyurethane; at least that's the plan with the actual press structure. I haven't decided what wood I'll be using for the collection tray & pressing lattices that come into contact with the apples yet.


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## woodtickgreg (Jun 18, 2018)

General moisture meter from home depot for about 30 or 40 bucks, it will tell you enough for air dried wood. Several of us here use them.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## Mr. Peet (Jun 18, 2018)

andy close said:


> Thanks, @Mr. Peet
> What do you recommend sealing the press with? I was initially going to finish the press with Danish Oil for a bit of penetration & then go over it with several coats of polyurethane; at least that's the plan with the actual press structure. I haven't decided what wood I'll be using for the collection tray & pressing lattices that come into contact with the apples yet.



There are others here that can better tell you what to use for sealing. I'm old school, so many things are no longer accepted.

Lots of folks used an angled aluminum cake pan with a pour notch and drain it into a plastic bucket. Some argue taste gets compromised. We've used steel cookie sheets and glass bottles, used plastic deflectors and catch basin, used plastic lattices (bread crate bottoms), maple lattice (good) basswood and beech. Best for us was stainless and glass for storage. Half of the fun is in experimenting.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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