# Repairing a solid door



## DKMD (Jun 16, 2016)

So we had this door made a few years ago to replace an old door in our house. The old door was all glass panels, and we wanted to have the ability to put a dog door in. We've gotten a couple of new dogs who are too big to use this door, and I was contemplating replacing the dog door with a larger door... That's when I noticed the cracks. My wife suggested buying a new door, but I remember how much this damn thing cost!

Any thoughts about possibly repairing it? I know this is from wood movement, but is this something that the door maker should take back and fix for us? I don't recall exactly, but I think the door maker cut the hole for us... My wife thinks the contractor did it(she's usually right). Does it matter who made the hole?

It's a solid oak door, and you can see the cracks in the second photo near the upper left and lower right corners of the dog door.(ignore the black material behind the windows... There's a major remodeling project about to happen on the outside of that door, so we covered the windows to keep the dogs from barking incessantly at the folks in the back yard)


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## Kevin (Jun 16, 2016)

It looks like the glue joints are failing. Who made the door? Local lumberyards often use a door factory owned by larger chains. For example many of the local independent lumber yards here buy their custom doors from the Foxworth Galbraith door factory in Van Alstyne for example. If you bought your door via a small lumberyard in Enid, they likely use a manufacturer like that and if so they will probably warranty it IF they cut the hole but if the contractor did, you're probably out of luck.

I've built a few solid doors but I'm not a door expert, but I don't think a repair is possible. You could conceivably remove the lower muntin and glazing bars to remove that piece of trim, then cut the lower panel out between the stiles, then glue up another panel to replace it. You'd have to either use a splined butt joint on both sides to make a good joint between the new panel and the stiles, or rabbet the stiles and panel and glue that way. It could be more work and time than buying a new one if you're a turner and don't even own a table saw anymore though. . . .

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## Mike1950 (Jun 16, 2016)

hard to tell but flat sawn panel -not the strongest- if it was glued into groove of vertical style- ooops I think that is a no no. But that is what looks to me what happened. Square door makes for weak points at corners ( Look up what happened to british airline plane with square windows-It is why they are round now). If contractor made hole good luck with maker.... My advice about buying doors- ABSOLUTELY do NOT send wife alone to do this chore. Kathie made ours a surprise- it was I almost had the ReFox big one. SHEEESSSSEEEEE....... good luck

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## DKMD (Jun 16, 2016)

Kevin said:


> It looks like the glue joints are failing. Who made the door? Local lumberyards often use a door factory owned by larger chains. For example many of the local independent lumber yards here buy their custom doors from the Foxworth Galbraith door factory in Van Alstyne for example. If you bought your door via a small lumberyard in Enid, they likely use a manufacturer like that and if so they will probably warranty it IF they cut the hole but if the contractor did, you're probably out of luck.
> 
> I've built a few solid doors but I'm not a door expert, but I don't think a repair is possible. You could conceivably remove the lower muntin and glazing bars to remove that piece of trim, then cut the lower panel out between the stiles, then glue up another panel to replace it. You'd have to either use a splined butt joint on both sides to make a good joint between the new panel and the stiles, or rabbet the stiles and panel and glue that way. It could be more work and time than buying a new one if you're a turner and don't even own a table saw anymore though. . . .



The door was made locally by a place called Don's Doors, but I just can't remember who cut the hole.

I am without a motorized horizontal cast iron storage surface, but I know several folks locally who would allow me access the theirs(provided I clean them off and then replace all the crap once I'm done).

I considered just filling the gaps with wood putty and re-staining it... What have I got to lose really?


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## Mike1950 (Jun 16, 2016)

I keep looking at it and it finally dawned on the  The normal panel orientation is vertical grain, Just did not look right. I bet some one that knows door construction better could tell you why......

Reactions: Agree 1


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## DKMD (Jun 16, 2016)

Mike1950 said:


> ...if it was glued into groove of vertical style- ooops I think that is a no no...



Kind of what I was thinking... I'm no furniture expert, but I know better than to do that and expect a good result!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kevin (Jun 16, 2016)

That's right Mike it didn't look right to me either and that's it. Holds moisture longer if it ever gets past the finish.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kevin (Jun 16, 2016)

DKMD said:


> I considered just filling the gaps with wood putty and re-staining it... What have I got to lose really?



Nothing. Worth a try, you just need to keep water off of it on the outside.


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## Kevin (Jun 16, 2016)

Although I will say with panel doors the top, mid, and bottom rails do run horizontally so you still have horizontal members - you just need to keep the water from getting in the joints.


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## DKMD (Jun 16, 2016)

This doorway is the orignal back door to the house, but somebody built a sunroom on in the '70s... This door hasn't seen a drop of water since installation. We're about to tear the sunroom off the house and build a covered brick porch that actually matches the house, so it might see a little weather... Even then, it won't be much.

I agree with the panel door comments about horizontal rails top/middle/bottom, but the lower section in this door isn't a panel... At least not in the sense of a floating panel. It has always looked funny to me, but I always thought it was the dog door... Now that you two mention it, it's probably the fact that the entire lower section is oriented horizontally.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## rocky1 (Jun 16, 2016)

How much bigger is the new doggy door doc? Are you going to lose most of it when you cut the hole bigger?

Next question would be... If you're seeing enough movement and stress with the smaller door to cause this problem, what's going to happen with a larger opening?


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## Brink (Jun 17, 2016)

A square hole in wood doesn't cause stress risers like a square hole in a fuselage that is pressurized and depressurized over and over. Wooden propellers don't stress fatigue, aluminum props do. But, @Mike1950 is onto something.
Usually, grain would run vertically because the panels would be more of a rectangle. Not too often are they square. From the looks of this door, grain orientation had little to do with the cracks.
If the panel is free to move in its groove, I don't think it was a an expansion/contraction issue. If the panel was glued, then it could be a major reason for the cracks. Also, how rigid is the doggie door frame? It might have resisted movement.

Going with the  and the reference to the DeHaviland Comet, and Doc saying they have a couple new dogs that are too big for the door, how many dog impacts would it take to crack a panel? 
FYI, Shopdog blew out a door panel when she tried to dive through a cat door.

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## DKMD (Jun 17, 2016)

rocky1 said:


> How much bigger is the new doggy door doc? Are you going to lose most of it when you cut the hole bigger?
> 
> Next question would be... If you're seeing enough movement and stress with the smaller door to cause this problem, what's going to happen with a larger opening?



We haven't gotten there yet... Don't have a dog door picked out. I don't think it'll be big enough to eliminate the cracks because they extend all the way to the vertical grain piece on each side. Perhaps a custom dog door is in order... Something curly and/or burly.



Brink said:


> A square hole in wood doesn't cause stress risers like a square hole in a fuselage that is pressurized and depressurized over and over. Wooden propellers don't stress fatigue, aluminum props do. But, @Mike1950 is onto something.
> Usually, grain would run vertically because the panels would be more of a rectangle. Not too often are they square. From the looks of this door, grain orientation had little to do with the cracks.
> If the panel is free to move in its groove, I don't think it was a an expansion/contraction issue. If the panel was glued, then it could be a major reason for the cracks. Also, how rigid is the doggie door frame? It might have resisted movement.
> 
> ...



I'm doubtful that the dog impact caused it because the 'panel' section is thick and solid wood, but I guess it's possible.

I hadn't thought about the dog door frame resisting movement, but I'll bet it's a factor. It's hard to know how big a factor because I don't know how the horizontal members are connected to the vertical pieces.

Any thoughts on repair options?

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## Tony (Jun 17, 2016)

Aesthetically I know it might be an issue but what about a butterfly? Tony


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## Mike1950 (Jun 17, 2016)

DKMD said:


> We haven't gotten there yet... Don't have a dog door picked out. I don't think it'll be big enough to eliminate the cracks because they extend all the way to the vertical grain piece on each side. Perhaps a custom dog door is in order... Something curly and/or burly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Temporary repair- caulk- it will move with the crack- permanent repair- tear door apart and replace panel with QS vertical panel. Or send wife to door store again... (you) (her)

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## Mike1950 (Jun 17, 2016)

Brink said:


> A square hole in wood doesn't cause stress risers like a square hole in a fuselage that is pressurized and depressurized over and over. Wooden propellers don't stress fatigue, aluminum props do. But, @Mike1950 is onto something.
> Usually, grain would run vertically because the panels would be more of a rectangle. Not too often are they square. From the looks of this door, grain orientation had little to do with the cracks.
> If the panel is free to move in its groove, I don't think it was a an expansion/contraction issue. If the panel was glued, then it could be a major reason for the cracks. Also, how rigid is the doggie door frame? It might have resisted movement.
> 
> ...



Yes I know not the same comparison- but weak point would be corners. especially if panel is glued in as I suspect. Good point on doggie door though- aluminum does expand and contract. You have a good memory for a chimp- Comet was right. Cool looking plane though.

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## barry richardson (Jun 17, 2016)

Where the cracks occurred indicate that the dog door frame was a very tight fit in the panel, and didn't move with the wood, thus the cracks. If it were me, when I installed the bigger dog door, I would try and do some cosmetic repairs to the cracks, maybe putty, and live with it. As you said, solid doors ain't cheap...

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 1


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## Kevin (Jun 17, 2016)

Easy solution would be to trade the dogs in for some cats.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## brown down (Jun 17, 2016)

Tony said:


> Aesthetically I know it might be an issue but what about a butterfly? Tony



If the panels were glued in I would be willing to bet that if you put a dutchman in its going to crack somewhere else.. My first furniture build, the same thing happened to me. I glued my breadboard ends on instead of pegging them and didn't allow for movement and split not only at the glue joint but cracked elsewhere!

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## Kevin (Jun 17, 2016)

brown down said:


> My first furniture build, the same thing happened to me. I glued my breadboard ends on instead of pegging them



I did that very thing on the first breadboard top I made over 25 years ago. What's cool is I actually still have this piece! I'm going to do a rebuild of the top - the chest portion has remained fairly sound even though I use inferior joinery at the corner. I *did* dovetail the sliding drawer inside the chest so of course it's still perfect. It's one of the few pieces of my early days that I still have. Walnut/Ash blanket chest with ERC lining and sliding drawer.

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## Kevin (Jun 17, 2016)

A curious thing about that top - it didn't even begin to wreck for nearly 15 years.......


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## brown down (Jun 17, 2016)

Kevin said:


> I did that very thing on the first breadboard top I made over 25 years ago. What's cool is I actually still have this piece! I'm going to do a rebuild of the top - the chest portion has remained fairly sound even though I use inferior joinery at the corner. I *did* dovetail the sliding drawer inside the chest so of course it's still perfect. It's one of the few pieces of my early days that I still have. Walnut/Ash blanket chest with ERC lining and sliding drawer.



I haven't gotten rid of mine either as it was the first big woodworking project I did with my father and is prob why I am addicted to woodworking! eventually I will put my jap flush cut saw to work and cut the top off. the trim I put on it also started to come apart as they were glued too.. I since then have learned how to do hand joinery and know solid wood has to move. Its weird tho he has built numerous pieces exactly like the one we built and they have held together for 20 plus years maybe longer! I think I may turn it into a storage compartment with drawers its an open entertainment piece now but don't have a use for it at this time! I am def gonna fix it instead of cutting it all apart

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## Kevin (Jun 17, 2016)

brown down said:


> Its weird tho he has built numerous pieces exactly like the one we built and they have held together for 20 plus years maybe longer!



I bet the pieces have remained inside a climate-controlled environment all their lives. For the first 12 years of its life my blanket chest did too and nary a problem. 3 years after being stored in a storage locker it began to wreck due to seasonal fluctuations in RH and after spending the last 10+ years in my shop it finally achieved ESD (Equilibrium Self Destruction). I learned from it. That's why if look at some of my old posts at WWT I used to warn some of the members to build as if their furniture will spend periods of its life under stressful RH swings because things happen. Most would just say _"It's been fine for x years I'm not worried about it"_ .... totally missing my point that one day most all furniture will have to spend its life somewhere in non-climate-controlled limbo whether because of moves, divorce and put in storage etc. and that will be judgement time. I learned the hard way joinery matters.

Gluing breadboard ends to the top is a stupid mistake even for a beginner, but there's less obvious dumb joinery decisions woodworkers make and they can be just as destructive. What is a proper joinery selection for one circumstance can be a bad one on the same piece in a different application.

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## DKMD (Jun 17, 2016)

Tony said:


> Aesthetically I know it might be an issue but what about a butterfly? Tony



I thought about it, but I think it would continue to crack elsewhere. Maybe I'll put one at all four corners of the new dog door to help disguise the cracks...



Kevin said:


> Easy solution would be to trade the dogs in for some cats.


And you could trade your penis for a vagina... Same difference.



Kevin said:


> I did that very thing on the first breadboard top I made over 25 years ago. What's cool is I actually still have this piece! I'm going to do a rebuild of the top - the chest portion has remained fairly sound even though I use inferior joinery at the corner. I *did* dovetail the sliding drawer inside the chest so of course it's still perfect. It's one of the few pieces of my early days that I still have. Walnut/Ash blanket chest with ERC lining and sliding drawer.


(Waiting on pictures of aforementioned furniture)


I appreciate all the thoughts and advice(except for Mike suggesting that I send my wife back to the door store). I'll probably start the search for a larger dog door while continuing to ponder the options. I'm leaning toward cutting out the bottom section and using a spline joint to secure a new section of wood oriented the other direction. 

Then I'll probably burn the damn thing and buy a new door!

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## Kevin (Jun 17, 2016)

DKMD said:


> And you could trade your penis for a vagina... Same difference.

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## Kevin (Jun 18, 2016)

DKMD said:


> And you could trade your penis for a vagina...



Doc I had a dream last night because of you!!!!







(P.S. is this surgery in your repertoire?)

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## brown down (Jun 18, 2016)

DKMD said:


> I'm leaning toward cutting out the bottom section and using a spline joint to secure a new section of wood oriented the other direction.



I was going to suggest that but it would be a ton of work but you already have the hole and the boards are already cut the only hard work involved would be getting the end boards in, in one piece. and also cleaning out the mortise slots. and router hand plane would prob do the trick and have one if you'd like to borrow it!

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## brown down (Jun 18, 2016)

Kevin said:


> Doc I had a dream last night because of you!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...






lol now theres an image I didn't need in my mind first thing in the morning! 
you just want to go in the ladies room don't you obama already gave the ok without having surgery

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3


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## DKMD (Jun 18, 2016)

Kevin said:


> (P.S. is this surgery in your repertoire?)



I'm pretty sure I could figure it out... I mean it's basically just a really aggressive circumcision, right?

@robert flynt would probably even craft a knife for your big day

Reactions: Funny 3 | Way Cool 1


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## Kevin (Jun 18, 2016)

DKMD said:


> @robert flynt would probably even craft a knife for your big day



Of THAT, I have no doubt!


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## Brink (Jun 18, 2016)

DKMD said:


> I'm pretty sure I could figure it out... I mean it's basically just a really aggressive circumcision, right?
> 
> @robert flynt would probably even craft a knife for your big day



Just use a fore-plane, then

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## Kevin (Jun 18, 2016)

Brink said:


> Just use a fore-plane, then



He can probably get by with a small trim plane.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Brink (Jun 18, 2016)

Kevin said:


> He can probably get by with a small trim plane.



I for one, didn't look


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## Kevin (Jun 18, 2016)

Brink said:


> I for one, didn't look



Chicken. Chicken Monkey.


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## Kevin (Jun 18, 2016)

Brink are you in that avatar? Looks like a 50s pic tho...,i


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## Mike1950 (Jun 18, 2016)

Kevin said:


> Brink are you in that avatar? Looks like a 50s pic tho...,i


 I think it is his dad

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## robert flynt (Jun 18, 2016)

DKMD said:


> I'm pretty sure I could figure it out... I mean it's basically just a really aggressive circumcision, right?
> 
> @robert flynt would probably even craft a knife for your big day


Don't drag me in to this weird conversation, Doc. Going from fixing a door to doing surgery on a certain part of our anatomy is a big jump!!!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## DKMD (Jun 18, 2016)

robert flynt said:


> Don't drag me in to this weird conversation, Doc. Going from fixing a door to doing surgery on a certain part of our anatomy is a big jump!!!



It's not OUR anatomy... Just Kevin's

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## robert flynt (Jun 18, 2016)

DKMD said:


> It's not OUR anatomy... Just Kevin's


In that case, put a outty on his for head.

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## barry richardson (Jun 19, 2016)

DKMD said:


> I thought about it, but I think it would continue to crack elsewhere. Maybe I'll put one at all four corners of the new dog door to help disguise the cracks...
> 
> 
> And you could trade your penis for a vagina... Same difference.
> ...


Well, since your going to all that trouble, make sure the panel is quarter sawn this time.....

Reactions: Agree 2 | Useful 1


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## Mike1950 (Jun 19, 2016)

And not mine to say but since I have a big mouth- My advice- when the wife decides enough is enough and goes out to find a new door- Buy it somewhere else. The amount they saved using helter skelter flatsawn vs. QS was not much considering the total price. Just the  opinion.

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## DKMD (Jun 19, 2016)

Mike1950 said:


> And not mine to say but since I have a big mouth- My advice- when the wife decides enough is enough and goes out to find a new door- Buy it somewhere else. The amount they saved using helter skelter flatsawn vs. QS was not much considering the total price. Just the  opinion.



So you've met my wife, huh?

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## Mike1950 (Jun 19, 2016)

DKMD said:


> So you've met my wife, huh?



Kinda- I have one like her- but twice as bad- we have a 2 door opening...........:$$$$$$:

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kevin (Jun 19, 2016)

robert flynt said:


> In that case, put a outty on his for head.



That might be quite handy. It sure would make for a fore head though, wouldn't it . . . .

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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