# Bowl Gouge



## Torque Turner (Dec 12, 2015)

Well, it's time to replace my 1/2" bowl gouge, and I'm feeling overwhelmed by the choices. I've only used HSS, but very curious about the Kryo and Powder metal tools. I'd like to tap into the vast knowledge of expert turners on this forum to get your advice on the best all around bowl gouge, and specifically what you think of the specialty tools that would require less sharpening. Simply put, if you could only have just one bowl gouge, what would it be? Thanks for your input.

Reactions: Great Post 1


----------



## Sidecar (Dec 13, 2015)

Torque Turner said:


> Well, it's time to replace my 1/2" bowl gouge, and I'm feeling overwhelmed by the choices. I've only used HSS, but very curious about the Kryo and Powder metal tools. I'd like to tap into the vast knowledge of expert turners on this forum to get your advice on the best all around bowl gouge, and specifically what you think of the specialty tools that would require less sharpening. Simply put, if you could only have just one bowl gouge, what would it be? Thanks for your input.


I myself need to get one....


----------



## Schroedc (Dec 13, 2015)

I use a Sorby 1/2 inch gouge with a fingernail grind but more and more using carbide tools, especially for finishing cuts.


----------



## Jim Beam (Dec 13, 2015)

I love my Pinnacle cryogenic 3/8 bowl gouge.


----------



## barry richardson (Dec 13, 2015)

Don't have any experience with the exotic metal stuff, if you can believe their claim, they stay sharp much longer, which would be nice, but they are $$$. I would think most of the major makers would preform about the same in HSS, main difference being the grind you put on them. Personally, I have been eyeing a Sorby 3/4 bowl gouge, for when 5/8 just isn't enough


----------



## duncsuss (Dec 13, 2015)

Just one? Thompson Tools 1/2" V flute.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## duncsuss (Dec 13, 2015)

duncsuss said:


> Just one? Thompson Tools 1/2" V flute.



You didn't ask for reasons, but I'll tell you a few anyway ... the tool itself takes and holds an edge much better than the HSS tools I own, so fewer trips to the grinder.

Why Doug Thompson rather than any of the other cryo steel toolmakers?

Because he's a great guy. In the last year alone, that I know of, he's helped a turner in Maine whose shop collapsed under the weight of snow by having a "all sales this weekend go to Jorge Castaneda" (yes, all sales, not just all profit-on-sales -- just over $20,000 worth of hardware that Doug sold, eating the cost to himself). Just last month, he donated 100 turkeys and 102 pumpkin pies to a food bank for Thanksgiving (and took them there). He's donated to a local women's shelter. I honestly do not know anyone who is so giving.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Way Cool 4


----------



## Kevin (Dec 13, 2015)

duncsuss said:


> You didn't ask for reasons, but I'll tell you a few anyway ... the tool itself takes and holds an edge much better than the HSS tools I own, so fewer trips to the grinder.
> 
> Why Doug Thompson rather than any of the other cryo steel toolmakers?
> 
> Because he's a great guy. In the last year alone, that I know of, he's helped a turner in Maine whose shop collapsed under the weight of snow by having a "all sales this weekend go to Jorge Castaneda" (yes, all sales, not just all profit-on-sales -- just over $20,000 worth of hardware that Doug sold, eating the cost to himself). Just last month, he donated 100 turkeys and 102 pumpkin pies to a food bank for Thanksgiving (and took them there). He's donated to a local women's shelter. I honestly do not know anyone who is so giving.



I don't know if I own a Thompson tool but I think I am going to buy one or two just because if all that is true, he's sure worthy of my money for sure.

I haven't settled in on which I like best - the DT grind I have on one or the Clewes modified grind I have on one that Jimmy put on for me while I watched. I've touched it up a few time since but tried to keep the same grind and have been able to do so. Both are 3/8" fingernail and I like both, leaning toward the Clewes with the relief grind.


----------



## Torque Turner (Dec 13, 2015)

Yes, the Thompson tool is on my short list, and thanks for reminding me of his generosity. It certainly helps to know you're supporting a great cause. Thanks for all the great advice.


----------



## Torque Turner (Dec 13, 2015)

barry richardson said:


> Don't have any experience with the exotic metal stuff, if you can believe their claim, they stay sharp much longer, which would be nice, but they are $$$. I would think most of the major makers would preform about the same in HSS, main difference being the grind you put on them. Personally, I have been eyeing a Sorby 3/4 bowl gouge, for when 5/8 just isn't enough


Barry, will the 5/8 fit in a Wolverine jig?


----------



## DKMD (Dec 13, 2015)

Torque Turner said:


> Barry, will the 5/8 fit in a Wolverine jig?



I can get everything up to and including my 3/4" Thompson into my varigrind jig.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## Kevin (Dec 13, 2015)

Torque Turner said:


> Barry, will the 5/8 fit in a Wolverine jig?



Not Barry but yes it will take a 5/8" but that's the limit. I don't have a 5/8" gouge so I have never sharpened one but the hole is big enough to accept one if I ever get one.

Edit: Doc says 3/4" too so Bob's your uncle!


----------



## Torque Turner (Dec 13, 2015)

Thanks. I was told a few weeks ago that the 3/4 wouldn't fit. Good to know.


----------



## duncsuss (Dec 13, 2015)

Torque Turner said:


> Thanks. I was told a few weeks ago that the 3/4 wouldn't fit. Good to know.


That might depend on whether it's British 3/4" or American 3/4".

(Not joking -- one measurement is the flute width, the other is the diameter of the rod from which the flute is milled out.)

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Mike Mills (Dec 13, 2015)

I can't add anything to the HSS vs other metals as mine are all HSS.
I also don't use the Wolverine but others have stated the size limits.
In the US vs UK _bowl gouge_ it is accepted that the UK is 1/8" larger. It may be not quite 1/8 in smaller sizes and a little over 1/8 in larger sizes.
UK's are Sorby, Crown, Hamlet, Ashley Iles, and others. For example a 1/2 UK equals a 5/8 US, a 3/8 UK equals a 1/2 US.

Reactions: Thank You! 2 | Informative 1


----------



## Kevin (Dec 13, 2015)

Mike your diagram just turned the light bulb on for me. I have heard it described many times but never saw a diagram. Thank you!

I also like the colors chosen - red for Redcoats and blue for . . . . the victors.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Fsyxxx (Dec 13, 2015)

Thompson, bout to replace mine, nobody's are any better than Dougs. And he is an awesome dude. Just seconding that!

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Tim Carter (Dec 14, 2015)

I'm going to go out on a limb here. IMO the brand of bowl gouge is not important for the skill levels of most turners. What is important is the confidence and ability to use the bowl gouge to it's maximum potential. Those skills are developed through many, many hours of use at the lathe. I also think it's a waste of money for a new or newer turner to buy expensive bowl gouges before they learn to properly sharpen their tools.

I don't believe the diagram above is correct. The UK measurement is the width of the flute from point to point and does not include the distance from the point of the flute to the outside edge of the bar.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


----------



## duncsuss (Dec 14, 2015)

Tim Carter said:


> I don't believe the diagram above is correct. The UK measurement is the width of the flute from point to point and does not include the distance from the point of the flute to the outside edge of the bar.



I was surprised by the diagram, so went searching and have found 2 different descriptions of how the UK bowl gouge size is determined. Here's what The Woodworker's Institute has to say:

_*Today, here in the UK, measuring is made from the outside of the bar to the inside of the flute on the opposite side.*_

That matches Mike's diagram.

On the Peter Child Woodturning Tools website, it says: _*For no good reason, gouge sizes are confusing. Usually the gouge size is very approximately the width of the flute at the top*_ which is about as clear as mud 

(I think he's related to Roy Child, who designed the "superflute" for Henry Taylor tools.)

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## Kevin (Dec 14, 2015)

So I am back to my normal condition when it comes to all things turning . . .

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## woodintyuuu (Dec 14, 2015)

Thomson tools are not priced badly to begin with. they are quite well made, they guy is a nice guy- and should be considered by anyone wanting to turn wood!. The various grinds one can use are a total different discussion. I have 3 that are 1/2 inch and a 5/8 and a 3/4 that see use on daily basis. The reason for three half inch are the grinds vary from tool to tool. I only used jerry glaser tools for my
go to tools but i want now to extend the life in them because they cannot be replaced. Thompson tools are a very close second and for the price #1.

Reactions: EyeCandy! 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Kevin (Dec 14, 2015)

Cliff that name Jerry Glaser rang a bell and I remembered reading it on a site I bookmarked quite a while back. The site is Johannes Michelson - he claims he used to sell Glaser tools and loved them, but believes he made improvements to them. Doug Thompson provides his steel the site says. I don't have a clue about this guy but I bookmarked his site thinking I would try his skew gouge just haven't pulled the trigger yet - I need a better one than I have. 

What about this guy's tools? 

Hannes Tool


----------



## woodintyuuu (Dec 14, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Cliff that name Jerry Glaser rang a bell and I remembered reading it on a site I bookmarked quite a while back. The site is Johannes Michelson - he claims he used to sell Glaser tools and loved them, but believes he made improvements to them. Doug Thompson provides his steel the site says. I don't have a clue about this guy but I bookmarked his site thinking I would try his skew gouge just haven't pulled the trigger yet - I need a better one than I have.
> 
> What about this guy's tools?
> 
> Hannes Tool


Doug Thompson tools !! . these tools are made by Johanes Michelson the original hat guy. his tools i have no idea of - i stay with what works for me - did i say thompson - I will grind you a proper grind on the end of a thompon 1/2 inch bowl gouge and send it to you if you want ; try it out and if you like it buy me one to replace it. I will put it on a hosuluck handle also if you wish - the one i send will be brand new in tube . i have several layin around . Im serious , and then we can do a thread if ya want on how to use it . That may help a bunch of folks @Kevin

Reactions: Like 1 | Great Post 1


----------



## duncsuss (Dec 14, 2015)

Johannes is a nice guy. I don't know what he means by "having improved" on Thompson tools, but last time I saw him he was selling a jig which he said produces a grind he prefers over what you'd get using the Oneway Varigrind jig. (Also, it lets you grind closer to the end of the flute when the tool wears down so you get more life from the tool.) Maybe his improvement is the grind rather than the steel or flute shape.

@woodintyuuu -- Cliff, do you grind by eye or use a jig?


----------



## woodintyuuu (Dec 14, 2015)

duncsuss said:


> Johannes is a nice guy. I don't know what he means by "having improved" on Thompson tools, but last time I saw him he was selling a jig which he said produces a grind he prefers over what you'd get using the Oneway Varigrind jig. (Also, it lets you grind closer to the end of the flute when the tool wears down so you get more life from the tool.) Maybe his improvement is the grind rather than the steel or flute shape.
> 
> @woodintyuuu -- Cliff, do you grind by eye or use a jig?


duncan- every guy that sells tools or endorses a certain tool has his own variation of the "fingernail grind" or the Hannes grind or the irish grind or the ellsworth gind or the jordan grind or the @duncsuss grind or the whoever grind. I am of the school of starting with a basic grind and altering in small increments to fit the grind to YOUR own presentation angle . that certainly varies a bit between folks. To answer your question both - but i belive real men Do use jigs.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


----------



## Vern Tator (Dec 15, 2015)

Wow, ask 20 woodturners there opinion on the best bowl gouge and you will get at least 25 opinions. I like doug thompson, I first met this in portland at the AAW symposium, when he was just starting out and they threw him out to the dealer area because he didn't register. I like his tools and won quite a few. That being said, I like D-way tools better. Not sure that I can tell you scientifically why, but I think they hold a better edge, and longer. I changed how I sharpen this summer. I used to use a wolverine jig and do a modified fingernail grind. I still do, but I do it as a 4040 grind. I first learned about it from Cindy Drozda a few years ago. It is really Stewart Battie's thing, and before anyone starts it, we are all a little personality challenged. I listened to him do a demo, because there wasn't anyone I really wanted to see. He make sense to me, so when I got home, I tried it his way. I love it. I can sharpen faster than anyone I know with great easy results, I have sharp tools, and I can repeat it.
Anyway, slipping off the soap box, I think the answer is " If you buy cheap tools, you get cheap tools." Buy the best quality tools you can justify!!!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## NYWoodturner (Dec 15, 2015)

@Vern Tator - Not sure what personality challenge your talking about but Stewart Batty does a good demo in my opinion. He is compelling. I'd much rather have to filter excitement and enthusiasm down to my own comfort level than drum up a heart beat to engage myself. I'm not familiar with any of Stewart's sharpening techniques but anything he says gets my attention. He is one hell of a turner. He also is just keenly focused on why things work for turning and equally why they don't. He thinks way more into the details than I would ever dream of. 
I do a 40 degree angle on my roughing gouges and got that from Cindy. Not sure why it wrks but I tried it and love it. What is a 4040 grind?


----------



## elnino (Dec 18, 2015)

Original question I prefer powdered metal tools from Thompson they stay sharp longer. Now I do have some simple hss gouges that will actually get sharper but dull faster. Thompson tools arent parabolic so harder to use a jig to get perfectly shaped Irish grind aka Ellsworth grind. 

I use v flutes with 40 40 grind. Works great for bowls and spindles. If interested Stuart batty has videos on vimeo under SB tools that cover around 15 topics that are really well done.


Kevin you can order Thompson tools from Jimmy clewes so you might have one already??

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Sidecar (Dec 19, 2015)

woodintyuuu said:


> Doug Thompson tools !! . these tools are made by Johanes Michelson the original hat guy. his tools i have no idea of - i stay with what works for me - did i say thompson - I will grind you a proper grind on the end of a thompon 1/2 inch bowl gouge and send it to you if you want ; try it out and if you like it buy me one to replace it. I will put it on a hosuluck handle also if you wish - the one i send will be brand new in tube . i have several layin around . Im serious , and then we can do a thread if ya want on how to use it . That may help a bunch of folks @Kevin


So what's the price on one of these rascals ......I need to get one if affordable


----------



## duncsuss (Dec 19, 2015)

Sidecar said:


> So what's the price on one of these rascals ......I need to get one if affordable


About $60 for the half-inch ones. Add your own handle or buy one of his. Here's a link ... LINK

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## Kevin (Dec 19, 2015)

Lots of great info in this thread.

What is a 40/40 grind?

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Sidecar (Dec 19, 2015)

duncsuss said:


> About $60 for the half-inch ones. Add your own handle or buy one of his. Here's a link ... LINK


Now I see a V groove and a U groove......so now what and why the difference........CWS what's in your shop....I better stop by


----------



## duncsuss (Dec 19, 2015)

Sidecar said:


> Now I see a V groove and a U groove......so now what and why the difference........CWS what's in your shop....I better stop by


First and only bowl gouge? Get the V flute.

Want a second gouge that's specially for cleaning the inside curve down the walls and into the bottom? Get the U flute.


----------



## Sidecar (Dec 19, 2015)

duncsuss yes it's would be the first one , so you say go with a 1/2 V groove......and thank you for your input
The shorter Kevin


----------



## Kevin (Dec 19, 2015)

Sidecar said:


> The shorter Kevin




I doubt that! I'm 5'7 in my pink high heels.

Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## CWS (Dec 19, 2015)

Sidecar I have 8 Thompson tools that you are welcome to try when you want to come down and I will Let you take home the one you like.
I also have a couple Sorbys and Woodrivers. If I was new to sharpening I would buy a Woodriver or a Benjimen Best so I didn't waste a more costly tool learning to sharpen

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | +Karma 2


----------



## Sidecar (Dec 21, 2015)

CWS said:


> Sidecar I have 8 Thompson tools that you are welcome to try when you want to come down and I will Let you take home the one you like.
> I also have a couple Sorbys and Woodrivers. If I was new to sharpening I would buy a Woodriver or a Benjimen Best so I didn't waste a more costly tool learning to sharpen


Was over your way friday , was at Rushcreek Feed , hey they got the almanac calanders in with the signs of the moons ! Had to get the piggys some feed , should have stopped by !


----------



## Sidecar (Dec 21, 2015)

CWS said:


> Sidecar I have 8 Thompson tools that you are welcome to try when you want to come down and I will Let you take home the one you like.
> I also have a couple Sorbys and Woodrivers. If I was new to sharpening I would buy a Woodriver or a Benjimen Best so I didn't waste a more costly tool learning to sharpen


Thanks Curt ......I'll buy one, need one ! cause a lot of action takes place when ya go cram'n tools back in there, yeah boy !


----------



## Kevin (Dec 21, 2015)

Sidecar said:


> Was over your way friday , was at Rushcreek Feed , hey they got the almanac calanders in with the signs of the moons ! Had to get the piggys some feed , should have stopped by !



I dig old feed store and hardware calenders. I dont collect them or anything but whenever I run across one I grab it. That one sounds cool.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Sidecar (Dec 21, 2015)

Kevin said:


> I dig old feed store and hardware calenders. I dont collect them or anything but whenever I run across one I grab it. That one sounds cool.


I'll see if i can get ya one.......has the moons on it , lets me know if its ok to be around CWS

Reactions: Funny 1 | Way Cool 1


----------



## Kevin (Dec 21, 2015)

Sidecar said:


> I'll see if i can get ya one.......has the moons on it , lets me know if its ok to be around CWS



I'll send yoou some turning wood for it! Thanks. :-)

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## Mike Mills (Dec 22, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Lots of great info in this thread.
> 
> What is a 40/40 grind?


I didn't see where anyone answered it.
Scroll down to the third picture here.
http://floridawoodturningsymposium.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Bowl-Gouge-Handout.pdf

Reactions: Thank You! 2


----------



## Vern Tator (Jan 3, 2016)

Mike Mills said:


> I didn't see where anyone answered it.
> Scroll down to the third picture here.
> http://floridawoodturningsymposium.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Bowl-Gouge-Handout.pdf



Thanks Mike, That is exactly what I was talking about, I don't get on here often right now, so I didn't see people asking what it was. I started using it this past summer and love it. Cindy Drozda has a utube video of it which will explain the sweeping movement when grinding.


----------

