# what's with this green (colored) cypress?



## phinds

Neighbor of mine brought over a plank and asked if I knew what it was. Because of the heavy green color on both faces I unhesitatingly said that it was pressure treated wood, probably Doug fir or may some kind of pine.

He tells me that it is cooperage cypress salvaged from a water tower in Manhattan and that it is not pressure treated. He was very sure of all that.

I've never seen that kind of green color in cypress, BUT ... the middle part shows no green and I don't recall ever seeing pressure treated lumber where the green didn't go all the way through regardless of thickness.

What do you guys think?






Both faces. The first face is sanded and the other is not but that's not the reason for the lack of green in the center of the first (see end grain below)




end grain showing green except for in the center



 
end grain closeup


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## rocky1

Any possibility of brushed on treatments, with overlying boards? I ask because we dip our bee boxes in Copper Naphthenate diluted with mineral spirits to help preserve them, and it yields a green about like that on most lumber, after dried and aged a little. It's a much more vibrant green straight out of the tank, but once dried well, it very much resembles pressure treated lumber, on the outside. If you saw it after it's been dipped, you frequently see the same shallow penetration evident in your third picture Paul.


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## ripjack13

If it's from water towers, it cannot be treated with any chemicals whatso ever. Water towers only use raw wood, and I'm not sure about cypress, but they used to use a lot of cedar for it's natual resistance to bugs. But they rot out every so often because they are just raw wood...
Could the green come from the water itself?


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## rocky1

I did consider that rip, but the lumber looks to good to have been on the tank, it doesn't show signs of exposure to the elements, or the water itself. I was thinking it was possibly part of the structure where it wasn't exposed. Also in that respect, contemplated the possibility of algae growth staining it as part of the tank. But you'd need light inside the tank for green algae to grow within. Stains from water in the tank itself would be more likely to be brown, resulting from Ferrous Oxide and Manganese in the water. But again, the condition of the lumber looks too clean for that. It would appear to have been inside out of the weather, and not exposed to the water.


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## against.the.grain

Could the tower have had a copper roof?


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## rocky1

Copper is a naturally occurring element, it is possible it could have been in the water too, but you'd have to find raw water test results prior to implementation of the Safe Drinking Water Act in the early 90s, to determine if that was cause. Upon implementation of the Lead/Copper rule under the Safe Drinking Water Act, if they had enough copper in the water to stain the lumber, they would have failed compliance and had to treat with ortho phosphates of some nature. And, that would have likely removed some of the green stain. Ortho Phosphates used in water treatment, coat the inside of the pipe/tank walls to prevent lead from leaching from the waterlines, where present. Over time they break down and precipitate, taking any pre-existing deposits on the pipe/tank walls with it. While there is no adverse effect from copper, the EPA uses it as an indicating factor of aggressive qualities present in the water, and force you to treat anyhow.

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## phinds

I should have mentioned, the plank is 20 or 30 years old. My neighbor was involved in the replacement of several old wooden water towers in Manhattan. He got a ton of this stuff and his father made furniture out of most of it.

That's interesting that water tower wood can't be pressure treated. I didn't know that.


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## ripjack13

I just looked around the websites for the 3 major wood tank builders. It looks as though Rosenwachs uses Western Red Cedar. American Pipe uses Alaskan Yellow Cedar. And I can't find much info on the Isseks Brothers tanks, and I don't see any website info at all for them. But it seems as though the major wood is cedar, and has been that way for over 150 years... there was one site that mentioned redwood, but I can't find it now. 



http://www.rosenwachgroup.com/rosenwachtank/tanks-wood.php
http://www.americanpipeandtank.com/about_us-new_york.html


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## ripjack13

http://streeteasy.com/blog/nyc-water-tanks/


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/nyregion/for-3-families-wooden-water-tanks-are-in-the-blood.html


good reading....


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## ripjack13

I can only guess one more thought on this, and I'm not trying to silly, but, maybe that is pressure treated and the guy got it from the tank builders, but it was part of their staging?


Does the wood have any odor/smell to it?


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## ripjack13

Can western Cedar be green colored?


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## phinds

ripjack13 said:


> I can only guess one more thought on this, and I'm not trying to silly, but, maybe that is pressure treated and the guy got it from the tank builders, but it was part of their staging?
> 
> 
> Does the wood have any odor/smell to it?


No, he was emphatic that it came from the water towers and he was personally involved in tearing them down and putting up replacements (I think the replacements were cedar but he said a lot of the old Manhattan water towers were cypress).

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## phinds

ripjack13 said:


> Can western Cedar be green colored?


I've never seen it green any more than I've seen cypress green. I'm flummoxed by this. If it were not for the part that ISN'T green, I'd think it had been pressure treated despite his not knowing about that, but then you said water tower wood can't be pressure treated so I guess that's ruled out two different ways.

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## rocky1

Cypress would be a good candidate for such, especially something that old and heart cypress. Stuff will last forever without treatment of any nature, and exposure to water doesn't phase it. Likewise, it is resistant to most bugs. I honestly don't know why anyone would treat it, except my old man does thinking it will make paint stick better. We have a quite few boxes made out of old heart cypress, as in some of those boxes are probably as old as @Mike1950 if not maybe even older, and they're still in great shape. No bug damage of any nature, no rot whatsoever; they are painted, and most have been dipped now, but they were 40 - 50 years old before they were ever dipped the first time.

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## ripjack13

Interesting side note...I have book marked a few pages for further reading. And I learned that the Coney island name was dutch for Conyne Eylandt which meant "Rabbits Island"....


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## ripjack13

Just a blurb on a page I saw...

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Home/Design-Dose/January-2012/Coming-From-a-Water-Tower-Near-You/

_Ever looked up to admire the old water towers that dot the urban skyline? So has Peter Dunham, who, along with his wife, Linnea Gits, is one half of the imaginative Uusi design studio. Together, they create everything from screen prints to playfully modern farm animals and furniture (read more about their studio here), but I was interested to learn that Dunham’s source of reclaimed cypress, which he has used to make tables, custom kitchens—anything, really—is demolished Chicago water towers.


*The old-growth cypress of the water towers, many of which date back 100 years or more, is wood that grew so slowly that it’s nearly impossible to count the tightly-spaced rings, *Dunham says. Cypress is a conifer—a soft wood—with a high degree of natural oiliness. It’s so oily that its sawdust sticks together in clumps as it flies off cut planks. *The reclaimed wood also has a beautiful golden-caramel patina that is hard to re-create in fresh-cut materials. *Dunham especially likes finding unique planks from the tower remnants, where steel turnbuckles and nails that held the barrels together have stained the wood. “It has this visible history and age, and reclaiming it lets me make pieces that will be around for a long time,” he says.


I love that Dunham breathes new life into these fragments of Chicago history. For more wood facts, plus tips on caring for your pieces, check out Dunham’s advice in our new February issue, on newsstands._

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok...*sorry Paul, I'm no help (again)*. But I like to try to learn and I like to look for stuff. 

allrightie then...g'nite...

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## phinds

ripjack13 said:


> Ok...*sorry Paul, I'm no help (again)*. But I like to try to learn and I like to look for stuff.


Interesting stuff. Thanks for posting.

One thing that strikes me is that it is not at all difficult to count the rings on this piece of cypress so it's not super slow growth stuff.


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## rocky1

Old growth, rings so tight you can't count them, doesn't fit the picture above. But, I have seen some second growth cypress in those old boxes that would likely be close to what you see up above, (_except it weren't green until we stuck it in the drum)_, and yet, I've encountered others that make you wonder where the bricks are hid in it. Some of it can certainly weigh up like hardwood.

Otherwise pretty accurate description. Pain in the ass to repair those boxes, sawdust plugs you up big time, makes the eyes itch. Not sure what it is about it, but splinters will fester up way worse than pine, or most anything else I've ever encountered! With exception of creosote, and some pressure treated lumber; pretty comparable to that. I would believe it allergic reaction to cypress, but new growth cypress doesn't bother me. By the same respect however... new growth isn't dense, or oily.


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## deltatango

Rosenwach who makes a good percentage of the tanks in NYC uses a certified, approved cleaning method called "Green Clean" : http://www.rosenwachgroup.com/rosenwachtank/tanks-greenclean.php

Wonder if this chemical leaves a residue that causes the discoloration? Wonder if the chemical interaction with fungi creates a staining of the wood? 

(From their website)

_Waterborne surface deposits accumulate on water treatment equipment and storage tanks over time. Extent and composition of these deposits depend on the qualities of the bulk water and environmental factors such a temperature and light.

Surface deposits can have negative impacts on water quality, complicate maintenance and accelerate corrosion. High costs for facility repair and replacement, as well as increasingly strict water quality standards have enhanced the interest in effective preventative maintenance methods, leading to recommendation or mandates for regular facility cleaning.

Traditional cleaning methods such as flushing, pressure washing and underwater vacuum technology are relatively inefficient against most types of deposits, leaving frequent resurfacing or excessive chlorination as the only options in cases of severe scaling and fouling.

Green cleaning technology, which is certified for use in drinking water facilities, allows for thorough removal of inorganic and organic contaminants from water facility and filter media surfaces. The procedure is fast, convenient and safe to apply.

Benefits of applying green cleaning technology have been shown to include stabilization of chlorine residual, recovery of contaminated surfaces, improved facility inspection and improved filter performance. Including regular chemical cleaning in a preventive maintenance program can also help reduce chlorination by-product accumulation and delay costly resurfacing. _

*THE PROBLEM*
Tank Surface Deposits
• Chlorine Residual Decline
• Elevated DBPs (TTHMs, HPC)
• Increased Turbidity
• Inefficient Inspections
• Coating Deterioration 
• Increased Corrosion 

*THE SOLUTION*
Rosenwach GreenClean Surface Cleaning
• Thoroughly removes surface deposits such as iron, 
manganese, fungi, algae and bacteria.
• Works on wood, steel, concrete and fiberglass
• An NSF 60* -certified, spray-on and rinse-off application
• Can be done on a regular maintenance schedule
• Rosenwach personnel are certified applicators


Another wild guess: is it possible that the green comes by way of spalting? Fungi present in the water/wood creating a natural stain specific only to bald cypress under these conditions?

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## Mr. Peet

Treated yellow pine, Cypress needed 30 years per inch to qualify for water tower sides. Cypress carries a honey smell and waxy feel. Treated lumbers often have a waxy feel. This cypress is green with "age". Built 1886 for Pinchot estate, Grey Towers.

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## Mike1950

rocky1 said:


> Old growth, rings so tight you can't count them, doesn't fit the picture above. But, I have seen some second growth cypress in those old boxes that would likely be close to what you see up above, (_except it weren't green until we stuck it in the drum)_, and yet, I've encountered others that make you wonder where the bricks are hid in it. Some of it can certainly weigh up like hardwood.
> 
> Otherwise pretty accurate description. Pain in the ass to repair those boxes, sawdust plugs you up big time, makes the eyes itch. Not sure what it is about it, but splinters will fester up way worse than pine, or most anything else I've ever encountered! With exception of creosote, and some pressure treated lumber; pretty comparable to that. I would believe it allergic reaction to cypress, but new growth cypress doesn't bother me. By the same respect however... new growth isn't dense, or oily.



Western cedar is not oily but has some of the same effects- festered slivers-people have reactions to it. We don't see cypress here. But have a friend that has some reclaimed old growth doug fir from western Montana- 16' 3 x 6"'s in a slightly trapezoid shape. They were used in 16' diameter tanks. The grain is as tight and straight as you could find, beautiful coloring. Wood lasts a long time in semi arid land but these were preserved and colored a rich brown by their use. Seems farmer found a great way to use his wheat. Making alcohol during prohibition. 2 16' x 16' tall tanks would produce a lot of booze....

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## phinds

deltatango said:


> Another wild guess: is it possible that the green comes by way of spalting? Fungi present in the water/wood creating a natural stain specific only to bald cypress under these conditions?


Given that he said all of the planks were like this it seems unlikely. Also the uniformity of the color and the absence of the color towards the center would seem to rule against that as well. If it were less uniform in distribution, then maybe but in this piece I don't think so.


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## Mike1950

phinds said:


> Given that he said all of the planks were like this it seems unlikely. Also the uniformity of the color and the absence of the color towards the center would seem to rule against that as well. If it were less uniform in distribution, then maybe but in this piece I don't think so.



Was there any copper or copper plated products. copper turns stuff green?


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## phinds

Mike1950 said:


> Was there any copper or copper plated products. copper turns stuff green?


Don't know. I'm going to see the neighbor sometime soon to ask more about this stuff. I was in a bit of a hurry when he stopped over and showed me this (and let me cut off a chunk).


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## deltatango

OK - here's another thought. Sinker Cypress can exhibit green color when cut:

"As Sinker Cypress logs lay on the swamp and riverbed floors aging over the course of a century or more, the wood fiber starts to absorb the minerals and tannins found in the surrounding water creating colors that are breathtaking. If the logs came to rest on muddy river bottoms, the natural golden colors can start shading to hues of olive green". (From http://arcwoodandtimbers.com)












Could it be as simple as the cypress boards absorbing the water, tanins and minerals, etc., from the inside of the tanks?

Reactions: EyeCandy! 2 | Agree 1


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## Mike1950

deltatango said:


> OK - here's another thought. Sinker Cypress can exhibit green color when cut:
> 
> "As Sinker Cypress logs lay on the swamp and riverbed floors aging over the course of a century or more, the wood fiber starts to absorb the minerals and tannins found in the surrounding water creating colors that are breathtaking. If the logs came to rest on muddy river bottoms, the natural golden colors can start shading to hues of olive green". (From http://arcwoodandtimbers.com)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could it be as simple as the cypress boards absorbing the water, tanins and minerals, etc., from the inside of the tanks?




Very nice looking wood

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## phinds

I'm pretty sure he said this was just regular logged cypress, not sinker, but that's interesting about the green color in sinker cypress. Hadn't seen that before. Again, I'm going to see him again soon and will ask more about this piece.


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## Mike1950

Maybe long term water exposure turns it colors.


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## deltatango

phinds said:


> I'm pretty sure he said this was just regular logged cypress, not sinker, but that's interesting about the green color in sinker cypress. Hadn't seen that before. Again, I'm going to see him again soon and will ask more about this piece.



I wasn't suggesting that your sample or the boards he has are sinker cypress, but rather that they may be exhibiting the same qualities of sinker cypress after having been "under water" for at least 35 years, possibly more. Again, just another guess - I don't think I have any other ideas of what it could be.

You might ask your friend how long the boards were under water, and if they are pretty much all showing the same characteristics?

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## Kevin

phinds said:


> ... he said a lot of the old Manhattan water towers were cypress).



Well, that solves the mystery about you people in the north east. It really *is* something in the water . . . .

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## deltatango

I had a building inspector who was from S. Georgia originally come to inspect the drain piping in our place (converted warehouse) some 35 years ago when we moved to Florida. He kept on me about Yankee this, Yankee that, until one day he came and was looking at the pipes and I asked how it looked.

"Like a Yankee done it...) was his reply.

I said: "You mean it's that good?"

He never said a word about any of it again.

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## Kevin

deltatango said:


> I had a building inspector who was from S. Georgia originally come to inspect the drain piping in our place (converted warehouse) some 35 years ago when we moved to Florida. He kept on me about Yankee this, Yankee that, until one day he came and was looking at the pipes and I asked how it looked.
> 
> "Like a Yankee done it...) was his reply.
> 
> I said: "You mean it's that good?"
> 
> He never said a word about any of it again.



You have to keep in mind the era - that was when the Black Taggers were still invading the south competing for jobs that were getting scarce all the sudden. One of the favorite phrases the yankees used was "That's not how we do it up north/back east". That arrogant mindset and attitude, and them, became very much despised by many southerners. What's funny is that many, if not most of the Yankees stayed and their children and grandchildren were born and bred here in the south. They are mostly proud southerners and sound like it too.

Resistance is futile Mr. & Mrs. Yankee. Your children will be assimilated.

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## deltatango

I understand that Kevin, having lived in the deep south for over 35 years. Back then there was a much greater fervent dislike/distrust of Northerners.

Having lived here so long we have become assimilated, and thankfully so. I don't want to travel North again if I can help it.

Friends from up North say I sound like a southerner to which I reply:

Boy Howdy! Ain't it Great!

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## phinds

I gave Tom (the neighbor who gave me the piece) the URL of this thread and suggested he join the forum and set straight anything I may have misrepresented about what he told me about the wood. I hope he'll do that.

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## phinds

deltatango said:


> I understand that Kevin, having lived in the deep south for over 35 years. Back then there was a much greater fervent dislike/distrust of Northerners.
> 
> Having lived here so long we have become assimilated, and thankfully so. I don't want to travel North again if I can help it.
> 
> Friends from up North say I sound like a southerner to which I reply:
> 
> Boy Howdy! Ain't it Great!


My problem is that Mom was a Southerner and Dad a Northerner, I was raised til about 6 in the South then all over the country and the world as an Army Brat so now when I'm in the North people think I'm a Southerner and when I'm in the South everybody thinks I'm a Northerner.

Friggin' EVERYBODY hates me

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## ripjack13

I like you Paul. But invisible online friends don't count...

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## Kevin

phinds said:


> My problem is that Mom was a Southerner and Dad a Northerner, I was raised til about 6 in the South then all over the country and the world as an Army Brat so now when I'm in the North people think I'm a Southerner and when I'm in the South everybody thinks I'm a Northerner.
> 
> Friggin' EVERYBODY hates me



As we've discussed I was a navy brat and had the same reaction anywhere I lived. Mama The @Brink swears I'm from Jersey. People down here have no idea I was born here unless I tell them. I've gotten a little accent back since I moved back here in 86 but I don't sound like the people who lived here their whole lives.


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## Mr. Peet

Paul, you Southern Yankee no good Coke mongering friend on line and in person. I spent 5 summers as a grunt building out door decks in the 90's. Your sample has a Fuccillo " HUge" similarity to the yellow pines. 'Kodiak' was the only east coast brand yellow pine to be treated and colored brown in our area. The rest were green, some pressured treated to resistance, and others to their own standards. I found when building customized deck and yard furniture, that is was very common for the cheaper costing wood to have pink, salmon and even yellowish heartwood. It was not until much later that I learned that many of the southern pines have heart wood highly resistant to treatment. (this topic is covered in the 'Useful Woods of the World' books). Additionally the latewood just looked more like yellow pine. B. cypress just always seemed to have proportionally narrower latewood in comparison to the earlywood.

Treated lumber was also used to build water towers. These towers were for secondary uses. A few, damn few were for the streamers still on the tracks, others for cooling towers, toilet lines and so forth. Not for consumption or cooking. The many copper comments reminded me of a house in Fleming NY that had copper roofing with copper gutters. Their water all went into a wooden cistern for gardening. I had assumed the wood was western red-cedar and did not inquire any further.

Look very forward to the neighbors comments. We could always send a sample to Mihaly for chemical testing....

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## phinds

Just got a bounce on my email to Tom and corrected the problem (turns out I can't spell Verizon ... typed verison) so he may still show up.

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## phinds

Mark (@Mr. Peet) stopped by today and he says the wood smells exactly like Southern yellow pine, that Southern yellow pine WAS used for water towers and if the water was not for human consumption the wood could be treated. Tom told us that this wood was from a water tower that (and I had this part wrong earlier due to a different part of my conversation with Tom) was on stilts but below the tree line and in the shade (and in Virginia, not Manhattan) and thus was likely moist on the outside enough of the time to have possibly developed some sort of fungal growth on the outside of the tower. Also, it was used to feed water to a motorized tank that was used to moisten a horse-race track, so not for human consumption.

So it could be treated Southern yellow pine (Mark's pretty sure of this) or Southern yellow pine with a fungus. Mark says the smell could not be mistaken for cypress. Tom also said that this plank was one of many, all with the same green color, so I find it hard to believe that kind of uniformity would be likely with a fungus, so I'm with Mark in believing that it's likely treated SYP.

I still need to do the fine sanding on the end grain but with the softwoods that often tells me little to nothing. Mark did mention that what he could see of the end grain was definitely more like SYP than cypress.

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## ripjack13

Yay! Good to know. Thank you Paul, for the clarification. And thanks to Mark for a good sniff job.


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## Mr. Peet

Well, someone has to be nosey...

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## ripjack13

Mr. Peet said:


> Well, someone has to be nosey...



At least you're sticking your nose where it belongs though.
:)


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## deltatango

phinds said:


> Neighbor of mine brought over a plank and asked if I knew what it was. Because of the heavy green color on both faces I unhesitatingly said that it was pressure treated wood, probably Doug fir or may some kind of pine.
> 
> He tells me that it is cooperage cypress salvaged from a water tower in Manhattan and that it is not pressure treated. He was very sure of all that.
> 
> I've never seen that kind of green color in cypress, BUT ... the middle part shows no green and I don't recall ever seeing pressure treated lumber where the green didn't go all the way through regardless of thickness.
> 
> What do you guys think?
> 
> View attachment 113789View attachment 113790
> Both faces. The first face is sanded and the other is not but that's not the reason for the lack of green in the center of the first (see end grain below)
> 
> View attachment 113791
> end grain showing green except for in the center
> 
> View attachment 113792
> end grain closeup



Occam's Razor strikes again!

Most informative thread. Thanks!

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## phinds

Did the end grain fine sanding today. Even in this reduced-size pic you can see clearly that it has tons of resin canals which, while not proving it is pine, certainly does prove that it's not cypress.

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