# adventitious buds --- wrong terminology?



## phinds (Jun 12, 2019)

I cut into a piece of white pine that Mark (@Mr. Peet) gave me last year and that had been drying in my attic since Jan '18 and I noticed I had, just by chance, made a perfect cut to show an adventitious bud. I show those on several woods on my site but they always are embedded in the wood. This time I got a pic of the unformed branch itself just sticking out as a little nubbin so I thought I'd post it on my terminology page.

Just to make sure I had the terminology right, and possibly to pick up some more pics from the Internet, I went searching for the term and ... NUTS! It appears that this is NOT, near as I can tell, what is generally meant by the term "adventitious bud".

*So, if that's not the right name for this construct, WHAT IS? Anybody know? *Mark, you've called it "adventitious bud", as, for example, in this thread https://woodbarter.com/threads/wood-id.36411/#post-499494 among others and I've used the same term in other threads here as well. Do you have a good source for that terminology? All the sources I can find seem to mean something a bit different by the term.

The white stuff surrounding the unformed branch is just dust from my sanding.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Mr. Peet (Jun 12, 2019)

You have a small branch there. The lower left it was alive for about 15 years but for some reason died and had 26 years of growth around it, thus the black lines beside it, (old trapped bark). Otherwise it would have been cone shaped, as in triangular, versus rectangular. Often lower, near ground, branches fail to slough off for many years.

I have seen you use Adventitious bud correctly before, maybe it is just late....


----------



## phinds (Jun 12, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> You have a small branch there. The lower left it was alive for about 15 years but for some reason died and had 26 years of growth around it, thus the black lines beside it, (old trapped bark). Otherwise it would have been cone shaped, as in triangular, versus rectangular. Often lower, near ground, branches fail to slough off for many years.
> 
> I have seen you use Adventitious bud correctly before, maybe it is just late....


OK, thanks.

What's the difference between what I have in this piece and here:




which you called adventitious buds in this https://woodbarter.com/threads/wood-id.36411/#post-499494 thread?


----------



## DKMD (Jun 13, 2019)

I want to give this a shot just to see if I understand what I’ve read. Here goes...

The word adventitious implies that something occurs by chance rather than as part of the normal order, so adventitious buds are areas of plant growth that occur in odd locations. 

@Mr. Peet is that close to right?


----------



## phinds (Jun 13, 2019)

DKMD said:


> I want to give this a shot just to see if I understand what I’ve read. Here goes...
> 
> The word adventitious implies that something occurs by chance rather than as part of the normal order, so adventitious buds are areas of plant growth that occur in odd locations.


That's the kind of thing I saw when looking up definitions. One example given frequently was buds devloping on the root structure, which is not normal. This kind of definition, which is what I found pretty much everywhere, does not jibe with the way Mark and I have been using it for years, which is how this thread got started.

The thingy in my pic is NOT a bud that is growing in a strange place, it's one that never developed into a branch but continued to grow out as the tree grew. Mark is calling this a "small branch" that died after some years but to me it looks EXACTLY like what I've always called adventitious buds.


----------



## kweinert (Jun 13, 2019)

phinds said:


> That's the kind of thing I saw when looking up definitions. One example given frequently was buds devloping on the root structure, which is not normal.



Tell that to my cottonwoods. Roots are starting to grow above ground and they are branching everywhere.

Or maybe, if I'm understanding correctly, my locust. Had it trimmed last year and now I have all sorts of little branches growing out of the main trunk which is about 12" in diameter. That thing threw new buds out *everywhere* after it was trimmed/thinned.

Or maybe I'm just not understanding the terminology here - which is likely to be the case.


----------



## Mr. Peet (Jun 13, 2019)

kweinert said:


> Tell that to my cottonwoods. Roots are starting to grow above ground and they are branching everywhere.
> 
> Or maybe, if I'm understanding correctly, my locust. Had it trimmed last year and now I have all sorts of little branches growing out of the main trunk which is about 12" in diameter. That thing threw new buds out *everywhere* after it was trimmed/thinned.
> 
> Or maybe I'm just not understanding the terminology here - which is likely to be the case.



No, those are both cases of adventitious buds. However, the case of the locust would likely be better called water-sprouts. Adventitious buds typically have years of growth, sometimes trapped in the wood, never to develop further (grown over), some continue to grow, and some burst beyond the bud into actual branch / stem growth. Some trees families or even single species are known to commonly have adventitious buds in a certain location, such as just below the stump collar, protected from fire and ready to respond if the plant top is damaged.


----------



## phinds (Jun 13, 2019)

Mark, I'm still confused. Can you answer my question in post #3 please?


----------



## Mr. Peet (Jun 13, 2019)

phinds said:


> That's the kind of thing I saw when looking up definitions. One example given frequently was buds devloping on the root structure, which is not normal. This kind of definition, which is what I found pretty much everywhere, does not jibe with the way Mark and I have been using it for years, which is how this thread got started.
> 
> The thingy in my pic is NOT a bud that is growing in a strange place, it's one that never developed into a branch but continued to grow out as the tree grew. Mark is calling this a "small branch" that died after some years but to me it looks EXACTLY like what I've always called adventitious buds.



Maybe I do not see it correctly. However, it looks like a branch that was broke off at the bark / trunk. Buds look more like waves of indentation. Your pine has a clear separation of grain direction, bordered with dark lines of separation. These dark lines are more often bark or cambium interface that has died. The growth rings that border it, ram's horn in, toward pith. This is common when engulfing a dead branch or branch stub. On a live branch the growth rings are perpendicular to ram's horning out, as in the direction the branch / leader is growing. That is why I was thinking so...


----------



## Mr. Peet (Jun 13, 2019)

DKMD said:


> I want to give this a shot just to see if I understand what I’ve read. Here goes...
> 
> The word adventitious implies that something occurs by chance rather than as part of the normal order, so adventitious buds are areas of plant growth that occur in odd locations.
> 
> @Mr. Peet is that close to right?



Kind of right, however it is normal / common for some species as stated in a separate post.


----------



## phinds (Jun 13, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> Maybe I do not see it correctly. However, it looks like a branch that was broke off at the bark / trunk. Buds look more like waves of indentation. Your pine has a clear separation of grain direction, bordered with dark lines of separation. These dark lines are more often bark or cambium interface that has died. The growth rings that border it, ram's horn in, toward pith. This is common when engulfing a dead branch or branch stub. On a live branch the growth rings are perpendicular to ram's horning out, as in the direction the branch / leader is growing. That is why I was thinking so...


Yes, I get all that and I think you are seeing it correctly and I agree w/ you but I think we are talking past each other. What exactly is the definition of "adventitious bud" as you use the term, and can you point me to specific examples with pics?


----------



## Mr. Peet (Jun 13, 2019)

phinds said:


> Yes, I get all that and I think you are seeing it correctly and I agree w/ you but I think we are talking past each other. What exactly is the definition of "adventitious bud" as you use the term, and can you point me to specific examples with pics?



Sorry Paul,

I follow you now. No, can't really think of a good source off hand. In school, we were shown on site, not books. We pulled a 7" DBH 'Pitch pine' and looked for the buds after stripping the bark. We looked at skun trees on landings and on scale yards. I can only guess someone has good pictures somewhere. As for definition, similar response, hands on experience. Sorry.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## phinds (Jun 14, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> Sorry Paul,
> 
> I follow you now. No, can't really think of a good source off hand. In school, we were shown on site, not books. We pulled a 7" DBH 'Pitch pine' and looked for the buds after stripping the bark. We looked at skun trees on landings and on scale yards. I can only guess someone has good pictures somewhere. As for definition, similar response, hands on experience. Sorry.


Fair enough. Sometime (probably later today) I'm going to post some pics and ask for you opinion on whether they are what you would categorize as having been caused by adventitious buds


----------



## phinds (Jun 14, 2019)

OK, Mark (@Mr. Peet ) I'd appreciate any comments you have on any of these regarding adventitious buds


----------



## Mr. Peet (Jun 14, 2019)

phinds said:


> OK, Mark (@Mr. Peet ) I'd appreciate any comments you have on any of these regarding adventitious buds
> View attachment 167338 View attachment 167339 View attachment 167340 View attachment 167341 View attachment 167342 View attachment 167343 View attachment 167344



I'm out of the office until Monday...


----------



## phinds (Jun 14, 2019)

Mr. Peet said:


> I'm out of the office until Monday...


Wait ... you have an office


----------



## Mr. Peet (Jun 16, 2019)

phinds said:


> Wait ... you have an office



Yaa its under all the wood and stuffff...

Thread 14#

1. Black oak - Could be Adventitious bud (AB). Sometimes the bud will have a pith. If it runs down the trunk, obviously, not a bud, but another growth.

2. Red oak - Looks to be AB as pith like evidence is on the board face. Side effect of these buds is indented grain in this cut. The indentation may quickly disappear as you progress down the board.

3. Oak - Looks to be AB. Same pith reason as 2. 

4. Spruce - not sure, speculation

5. Pine - these look like bud action. Color change mimics meristem development, so adventitious buds likely.

6. Matches Black Locust well - yes, adventitious buds. They could have developed into a cluster of watersprouts (no these turkeys are dead).

7. Yes I did. I thought you had pictures showing the endgrain of the piece. If a bud is not on the surface of the endgrain, they can often mimic indented grain or even cause it. A fine line that PHD's may argue.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## JR Parks (Jun 20, 2019)

Mark and Paul,
How do these differ from what we called dormant buds? Picture 7 is an example to what I had learned as a dormant bud.


----------



## phinds (Jun 20, 2019)

JR Parks said:


> Mark and Paul,
> How do these differ from what we called dormant buds? Picture 7 is an example to what I had learned as a dormant bud.


Good question. I don't know. Mark's much more knowledgeable about this kind of thing than I am.


----------



## Mr. Peet (Jun 21, 2019)

JR Parks said:


> Mark and Paul,
> How do these differ from what we called dormant buds? Picture 7 is an example to what I had learned as a dormant bud.



Very little difference, think one sounds more techno so the next gen goes for it. We learned that adventitious just develop, sometimes as a response and dormant buds are there from nearly the beginning and ready to respond.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------

