# Short white pine



## sprucegum (May 17, 2022)

I am running short of utility grade board so I went on a scavenger hunt. My son does some serious logging with big boy toys and always ends up with unmarketable stuff. This has been laying around for a couple years. I am guessing it was the trunk of a multiple top pine. Too short to make a log and too big to chip. The outside is blue stained and has worm holes but the center is white and sound. The bulk of the boards are 16" wide the widest is 22" . Nice to have on hand to take the place of expensive plywood.

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## woodtickgreg (May 17, 2022)

Any wood is good wood!

Reactions: Agree 3


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## 2feathers Creative Making (May 17, 2022)

I have mostly that type wood for sawing. That type being free...

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## JerseyHighlander (May 17, 2022)

Nice! Very underapreciated wood these days. But, isn't it supposed to be shaped like the side of a canoe? That's how Home Depot does it...

Boards that wide would be nice cut at more like 10-12/4. Good seats for chairmakers.

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## DLJeffs (May 17, 2022)

Blue stained, wormy holed pine is highly sought after in some circles.

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## sprucegum (May 17, 2022)

DLJeffs said:


> Blue stained, wormy holed pine is highly sought after in some circles.


Not so much for me, but it's plenty good enough for rough work and temporary stuff. So much of this kind of wood goes to waste. They have perhaps a 10 Wheeler load in the yard that the mills rejected. Mostly because of big knots or rotten hearts. The smaller culls get chipped for fuel chips but the chipper will only eat it under 24". The one I did yesterday was probably around 30" and 6' long. It made over 200 bd ft of lumber. I would do more of them if I had a big hydraulic mill, just too much work on manual mill.

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## JerseyHighlander (May 17, 2022)

JerseyHighlander said:


> Nice! Very underapreciated wood these days. But, isn't it supposed to be shaped like the side of a canoe? That's how Home Depot does it...





sprucegum said:


> Not so much for me, but it's plenty good enough for rough work and temporary stuff. So much of this kind of wood goes to waste. They have perhaps a 10 Wheeler load in the yard that the mills rejected. Mostly because of big knots or rotten hearts. The smaller culls get chipped for fuel chips but the chipper will only eat it under 24". The one I did yesterday was probably around 30" and 6' long. It made over 200 bd ft of lumber. I would do more of them if I had a big hydraulic mill, just too much work on manual mill.


Chipping up a 23" tree because it doesn't fit with the "streamlined" mechanization of your company... That's a crime. I guess leaving it standing wasn't an option either?

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## sprucegum (May 17, 2022)

JerseyHighlander said:


> Chipping up a 23" tree because it doesn't fit with the "streamlined" mechanization of your company... That's a crime. I guess leaving it standing wasn't an option either?


Many times the Forester marks cull trees to be cut because they will never have any value and they are taking up space where a good tree can grow. Large pine with multiple tops caused by pine weavel are prime targets and often have been logged around for generations. The old take the best and $#@& the rest is not sound forest management. Often in the case of internal rot there is no way to know until the tree is down. Trust me most loggers would rather not bother with these scags but it goes with the contract. Their is a mill in Maine that will buy very low grade pine logs but the price is so low that it barely covers the trucking. If the highest use of a 24" tree is fuel chips then let the chips fall.

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## sprucegum (May 18, 2022)

Here's a lovely weavel top pine growing on my property. It may have 2 lower quality 

10' logs in the trunk. The remainder has almost no value. I would cut it if it were not so much work to deal with.

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## Arn213 (May 18, 2022)

Those are some beautiful slabs. It is a shame what you are saying is happening with these pine basically goes to the waste side. There is a growing market for these for 8/4 guitar solid slab bodies basically for telecaster* shape as back in the early 1950 Leo Fender started with pine,
dubbed “plank” and it was a “Broadcaster” model prototype. Pine was readily available, it was inexpensive, it was resonant and it made for lightweight slab bodies. The only reason why he moved away from that wood is because it was too soft and it made indentations easily- a headache he didn’t want to have for mass production quantities. Fast forward now, there is quite a big resurgence for “pine” as a body wood- from reclaimed, salvaged or repurpose old pine as barn material, interior post and beams. Magic number is less than 2 pounds per board foot, roughly at 4 pounds or under that number for a tele body. I hope these folks can “tune in” to the guitar industry so these pine become instruments instead of falling off the way side……

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## sprucegum (May 18, 2022)

I could set up my mill to handle sections as short as 4 feet and pick and choose clear sections from cull logs. Problem is I doubt I could ever sell enough at a high enough price to make it worth doing. A large commercial mill Maine will buy these low grade logs but the price is low, it's a 6 hour round trip, diesel is $7/gal, and cdl drivers cost $400/day with insurance and benefits. That mill by the way supplies pine to over 400 home Depot stores on the east coast. If you ever wondered where those little short boards come from.

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## JerseyHighlander (May 18, 2022)

Just making conversation here, not attacking anybody's lifestyle but; The perceptions of "value" are very relative and have many facets. Don't even get me started on the Forester's viewpoint. I find many of these guys working in the forest to be like having the slaughterhouse line worker part-timing at your local veterinarian's office. 

I'm sure. you're speaking purely of commercial value and given what you do, I see your point. To me, leaving a tree standing has many other forms of value, especially if you aren't going to use it at all. Same goes for many of the claims of forest "management". Again, I'm sure you're speaking in a primarily commercial sense. The big industrial operations have their way of managing things, within their very limited scope, to make things as is best essentially, for them. The ramifications beyond their limited interests are rarely if ever considered. I know with certainty that the forests did very well on their own long before we ever came along to "manage" them...

I know, you're probably thinking [email protected]#%$# tree hugger!!! For perspective, I had the misfortune to be born in a vile place called Jersey City where trees were something you mostly saw on television. Once I got out of there and was first taken for a walk in a forest, it changed everything for me. I spend as much time in the woods as I can now and try my best to find those places where you could almost imagine you're first man that's ever set foot there. Yes, being a woodworker is a special conundrum for me. I'm also at a heightened point of irritation right now given my search for a home in New Hampshire/Vermont and the seeming impossibility of finding a house on a property that hasn't already been strip mined. 

Anyway, I'm glad you were able to find use for some of it. Once I get up that way I will be looking for that thicker material for Windsor chair seats...

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## sprucegum (May 18, 2022)

JerseyHighlander said:


> I get up that way I will be looking for that thicker material for Windsor chair seats...


You can probably find all of the chair bottom material you could ever use by making friends with a tree service guy. Nobody wants to put yard trees through a commercial mill because of the likelihood of hardware. In fact almost all commercial mills have a pile the they either hit nails in or the metal detectors sounded the alarm. All you need is a big chainsaw and ambition.

People been moving here in droves since COVID. They even knock on doors to try to buy. Nothing that's worth buying is on the market more than a few days.

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## 2feathers Creative Making (May 20, 2022)

JerseyHighlander said:


> Just making conversation here, not attacking anybody's lifestyle but; The perceptions of "value" are very relative and have many facets. Don't even get me started on the Forester's viewpoint. I find many of these guys working in the forest to be like having the slaughterhouse line worker part-timing at your local veterinarian's office.
> 
> I'm sure. you're speaking purely of commercial value and given what you do, I see your point. To me, leaving a tree standing has many other forms of value, especially if you aren't going to use it at all. Same goes for many of the claims of forest "management". Again, I'm sure you're speaking in a primarily commercial sense. The big industrial operations have their way of managing things, within their very limited scope, to make things as is best essentially, for them. The ramifications beyond their limited interests are rarely if ever considered. I know with certainty that the forests did very well on their own long before we ever came along to "manage" them...
> 
> ...


My parents land was cut as part of the sales price. Back in the 1990's 500 dollar an acre land was kinda scarce. He and I have walked it several times in the last 2 years looking at culling trees. Most of our management has to do with trees that ice storms and tornados already removed or severely damaged. The damaged ones wait till we "get time". The downed ones are in the process of becoming a woodshop for yours truly. There are times that trees really should be cut to refresh an area. His acreage has probably been harvested 4 or 5 times since folks started logging these parts. That leaves an overburden of snag tops, hollow trees, and other shapes and types that loggers won't touch. This tends to also remove the more valuable nut and fruit trees like cherry, walnut, hickory, white oak, red oak, and the likes while leaving stuff like sweet gum and loblolly pine which don't do just a whole lot for the wildlife.
I have nothing against saving a tree, but true forest management requires knowing what mix to plant back as well as what tree to cut. We have been replanting walnut and hybrid chestnut and trying to keep the oak saplings that show up while knocking down the pine that overseeds from the neighboring papermill plantations.

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## sprucegum (May 21, 2022)

2feathers Creative Making said:


> My parents land was cut as part of the sales price. Back in the 1990's 500 dollar an acre land was kinda scarce. He and I have walked it several times in the last 2 years looking at culling trees. Most of our management has to do with trees that ice storms and tornados already removed or severely damaged. The damaged ones wait till we "get time". The downed ones are in the process of becoming a woodshop for yours truly. There are times that trees really should be cut to refresh an area. His acreage has probably been harvested 4 or 5 times since folks started logging these parts. That leaves an overburden of snag tops, hollow trees, and other shapes and types that loggers won't touch. This tends to also remove the more valuable nut and fruit trees like cherry, walnut, hickory, white oak, red oak, and the likes while leaving stuff like sweet gum and loblolly pine which don't do just a whole lot for the wildlife.
> I have nothing against saving a tree, but true forest management requires knowing what mix to plant back as well as what tree to cut. We have been replanting walnut and hybrid chestnut and trying to keep the oak saplings that show up while knocking down the pine that overseeds from the neighboring papermill plantations.


Sounds like a good plan. My property has been miss managed by previous owners and I have more cull trees than valuable trees. One area is very tall slender tamerack and pin cherry. The under story is small balsam . Sometime when my son's equipment is close by I will give him the trees for cutting them. By using mechanical harvesting to remove the garbage trees very little damage will be done to the balsam under story. Once those trees get the sunlight they will grow like crazy. I won't live long enough to harvest them but it will look better and by the time my grandson is 40 there will be a nice cut of soft wood logs.
Society grows when old men plant trees in who's shade they will never sit.

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## woodtickgreg (May 21, 2022)

sprucegum said:


> Society grows when old men plant trees in who's shade they will never sit.


Man I like this, what a profound statement.

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## sprucegum (May 21, 2022)

woodtickgreg said:


> Man I like this, what a profound statement.


Wish I could take credit for it.

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## JR Parks (May 21, 2022)

Dave,
you can! You are doing it

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## sprucegum (May 21, 2022)

JR Parks said:


> Dave,
> you can! You are doing it


Greek proverb

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## JerseyHighlander (Jul 2, 2022)

Stumbled on some fantastic Bluegrass yesterday. This song in particular struck me and then made me think of this thread.

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## Mike1950 (Jul 2, 2022)

Gramps bought 160 acres in n. Idaho in 1942. Had been logged 40 years before. He started making ties, then stud logs and cedar posts. Logged of and on till 1970. 5 years later there was a great stand of timber on it. Probably as good or better than when he bought it.

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## SENC (Jul 2, 2022)

I generally look at trees as being more similar to corn (or any other crop) than we tend to think, just a longer timeline to harvest. No-one would leave random corn stalks in a field that didn't produce, they'd clean them out to prep for the next crop. Clear-cutting has its advantages, primarily for replanting and accelerating growth by eliminating shade and competition - which is also why we thin woods (often "wasting" healthy young trees), to promote a healthier stand.

I'm not in favor of wanton destruction, and certainly think there is value in preserving certain areas and certain stands of old growth (when possible and not detrimental to the area) - as are most tree farming operations, whether small family or big corporate. Indeed, good tree and land management has promoted more healthy woodlands over the past century (and a stable to slight increase in forest land in the US, despite massive increases in population, development, and utilization). Because of their slow (relative) growth we tend to think of trees as non-replaceable, when in actuality they are a highly renewable resource. To be sure, there are some very bad actors who lay waste to large areas with no intent to renew, largely in corrupt, third world countries and too frequently devastating very slow growth trees and forests - but I think it is painting with too broad a brush to apply very reasonable concerns/worries about such activities to the type of wasting described above.

To the point that mother nature managed forests just fine before we started managing them, that is generally correct. But if we relied on mother nature's management at today's population, development and resource utilization pace we'd be in real trouble, I suspect. California wildfires the last decade or so give small window into how mother nature manages forests on her own - unpredictably and often catastrophically.

My 2 cents. But quite glad @sprucegum that you were able to make use of that waste!

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Mike1950 (Jul 2, 2022)

SENC said:


> I generally look at trees as being more similar to corn (or any other crop) than we tend to think, just a longer timeline to harvest. No-one would leave random corn stalks in a field that didn't produce, they'd clean them out to prep for the next crop. Clear-cutting has its advantages, primarily for replanting and accelerating growth by eliminating shade and competition - which is also why we thin woods (often "wasting" healthy young trees), to promote a healthier stand.
> 
> I'm not in favor of wanton destruction, and certainly think there is value in preserving certain areas and certain stands of old growth (when possible and not detrimental to the area) - as are most tree farming operations, whether small family or big corporate. Indeed, good tree and land management has promoted more healthy woodlands over the past century (and a stable to slight increase in forest land in the US, despite massive increases in population, development, and utilization). Because of their slow (relative) growth we tend to think of trees as non-replaceable, when in actuality they are a highly renewable resource. To be sure, there are some very bad actors who lay waste to large areas with no intent to renew, largely in corrupt, third world countries and too frequently devastating very slow growth trees and forests - but I think it is painting with too broad a brush to apply very reasonable concerns/worries about such activities to the type of wasting described above.
> 
> ...


I agree on all points. 
Mother nature trumps humans everything. If you look up worst US avalanche disaster you will find it happened in 1910. 200+ died on Steven's pass in Washington when avalanche took a train for a ride down the mountain. It stopped snowing and raining in April, drought and about 300 miles east of Steven's pass we had the the worst forest fire in US history.. only took 3 days, dry forests and high winds. Mother nature's management tools at ends of spectrum.

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