# Live Oak "Quercus Virginiana "Trash or Treasure?



## Cross Sawmill

Live Oak"Quercus Virginianus"------ Trash or Treasure?
Does anyone have any experience or opinions about Southern Live Oak "Quercus Virginianus" hereafter referred to as Live Oak? I know a few years ago I just assumed that I "knew about" it. After riding thousands of miles, Discussing (and cussing) the relative merits and drawbacks of the stuff, I developed a Love/Hate feeling about it. It IS a difficult species. It IS known to wreck saws. But if You need its positive aspects; hardness,toughness,split resistance, rot resistance and curved non-directional grain, I do not know of a superior substitute.
I sawed and delivered 6 semi-loads of sawed 5'' thick flitches (almost 300,000 lbs of sawed material) some of them over 48'' wide for The San Salvador Ship Project. To do this I acquired over a half-million pounds of logs (no wonder My back hurts all the time). 
The frames for the Ship look great. That is what I have seen on the pictures and have been told by the Ship builders. The builder is The San Diego Maritime Museum.
What experiences has anyone else had ; good or bad? aka SuperAX


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## Kevin

*RE: Live Oak "Quercus Virginiana "Trash or Tresure?*

I don't have any experience milling LO Steve. And I don't know anyone who has milled more of it than you have. Maybe there is someone but I don't know who. I have run a few boards across my table saw and the stuff will scorch on a blade that is not necessarily dull - the blade needs to be a newly-sharpened one and must be a dedicated ripping blade I know that much.


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## Mike1950

*RE: Live Oak "Quercus Virginiana "Trash or Tresure?*

I got a couple pieces from Rob. I have not cut it but sure has cool grain. Looking for the perfect project.


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## NYWoodturner

*RE: Live Oak "Quercus Virginiana "Trash or Tresure?*

Steve - I couldn't begin to reply to the question, but looking at the myriad of pics of the build it just boggles my mind. I have only made it through one of the many galleries of pics by Jerry Soto, but I did find the one with the story board of what woods were used in the build. The fact card was not legible in the photo. Which parts were live oak used for? 

From a turners perspective - anything with a "Curved non-directional grain" is heaven, no matter the hardness. 

Going back to the build pics now... see ya in a week 
Scott :bye2:


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## Cross Sawmill

*RE: Live Oak "Quercus Virginiana "Trash or Tresure?*



NYWoodturner said:


> Steve - I couldn't begin to reply to the question, but looking at the myriad of pics of the build it just boggles my mind. I have only made it through one of the many galleries of pics by Jerry Soto, but I did find the one with the story board of what woods were used in the build. The fact card was not legible in the photo. Which parts were live oak used for?
> 
> From a turners perspective - anything with a "Curved non-directional grain" is heaven, no matter the hardness.
> 
> Going back to the build pics now... see ya in a week
> Scott :bye2:



Thank You for Your comment and insight. The frames for the Ship were made of double-sawn and triple-sawn futtock Live Oak. That means that were double and triple layers of overlapping pieces. Google "The Great Saw---San Salvador". More Later.


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## SDB777

*RE: Live Oak "Quercus Virginiana "Trash or Tresure?*

I obtained a few smaller logs from a local fella that wanted them cut for boat building, not to your scale but it was his hobby.

I had absolutely no issues milling these to his specs. The timber cut smoothly and was actually quite fun to do....I know he was pleased with the price I charged, and he'll probably be back with more next year(it takes him awhile to make a boat in his garage).


As far as turning this species, I can't help with that. The stuff that was 'leftover' from his cutting was burned(it was too small to really do anything with). But I could see large bowls being turned while I was cutting those logs! So to finally answer the question....."Treasure!"





Scott (smells funny though) B


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## Cross Sawmill

*RE: Live Oak "Quercus Virginiana "Trash or Tresure?*



NYWoodturner said:


> Steve - I couldn't begin to reply to the question, but looking at the myriad of pics of the build it just boggles my mind. I have only made it through one of the many galleries of pics by Jerry Soto, but I did find the one with the story board of what woods were used in the build. The fact card was not legible in the photo. Which parts were live oak used for?
> 
> From a turners perspective - anything with a "Curved non-directional grain" is heaven, no matter the hardness.
> 
> Going back to the build pics now... see ya in a week
> Scott :bye2:


 The Live Oak was used for the frames (or ribs) of the ship. I cut wide flitches and graded them on a "cutting unit" basis. The Ship Builders then cut them into Futtocks (Frame Pieces) and assembled them into the frames. Some of them were "Double-Sawn" and some were "Triple-Sawn" . Double and Triple refers to the number of layers. There is a video of Them cutting the pieces on youtube. It is called "The Great Saw- San Salvador". This saw has 38'' wheels,weighs 20,000 lbs, was patented in 1890 and built in 1910. It will cut a curve AND a slant at the same time. I personally witnessed that. A Ship frame at the front and the back "slants" in two directions (rolling bevel) and One has to cut it someway. Check out the video; more later.


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## Cross Sawmill

*RE: Live Oak "Quercus Virginiana "Trash or Tresure?*



Kevin said:


> I don't have any experience milling LO Steve. And I don't know anyone who has milled more of it than you have. Maybe there is someone but I don't know who. I have run a few boards across my table saw and the stuff will scorch on a blade that is not necessarily dull - the blade needs to be a newly-sharpened one and must be a dedicated ripping blade I know that much.


 Kevin, I also noticed that LO would "Carbonize/Scorch" on cutting tools. A couple of things that seemed to help was to apply paraffin wax(canning wax) to the cutting tool. DO NOT apply the cutting tool to flesh while You are doing this.


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## Cross Sawmill

OK! What does a Live Oak tree look like? Initially I thought all Live Oaks had the curved branching form. But as I found the trees for the San Salvador, I found quite a few with 25 to 30 foot trunks before they limbed-out. The longest one I harvested had a 36 foot stem before branching. The biggest in terms of weight was 15,000 lbs. I bought three truckloads that had a net weight of 90 tons plus(180,000 lbs Plus). The total number of logs was 25, for an average weight of 7,200 lbs. Man them wuz sum big lawgs.
I talked to some loggers from central Florida and they said they had some even bigger(of course).
Anybody?


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## Kevin

I don't have a picture of any LO trees Steve. But I have this picture of some LO wood a guy I know in Georgia cut up and sent west. . . . . 

http://i1077.Rule #2/albums/w468/WoodBarter/aStem-and-seven-full-frames-of-Southern-Live-Oak_zpse31157d5.jpg

*Here's a link *to one of many stories and articles that have been written about it. It's possible you may be familiar with this story. Might even be some of your blood and sweat in them thar timbers. 

You told me about that topping out ceremony I think, but I forgot whether you were there for that or not. And if so do you know where they got the branch? - did it have any significance to the build?


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## NYWoodturner

Here is the LINK I got lost in last night. Photo-mania :wacko1: Each of the photos on the first page links to a gallery of hundreds... Really cool to watch the build.


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## Cross Sawmill

NYWoodturner said:


> Here is the LINK I got lost in last night. Photo-mania :wacko1: Each of the photos on the first page links to a gallery of hundreds... Really cool to watch the build.


 Thanks for posting the link for the photos. It is always good to see the great work the Guys in California are doing on the San Salvador. This is going to be a outstanding Ship on many levels, Historically and Structurally. 
As a side note: I seem to remember some sort of technical issue about making a curved piece for something. How about if We used this technique (sawed ;curved ;built up frames) for architectural and furniture features? aka SuperAX


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## Cross Sawmill

Mike1950 said:


> I got a couple pieces from Rob. I have not cut it but sure has cool grain. Looking for the perfect project.


 Could You give us a description and/or some photos of Your Live Oak? I am going to look through My pictures and left-over Live Oak and share some information about it. It has quite a range of qualities, but WE have to start somewhere.


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## Cross Sawmill

NYWoodturner said:


> Steve - I couldn't begin to reply to the question, but looking at the myriad of pics of the build it just boggles my mind. I have only made it through one of the many galleries of pics by Jerry Soto, but I did find the one with the story board of what woods were used in the build. The fact card was not legible in the photo. Which parts were live oak used for?
> 
> From a turners perspective - anything with a "Curved non-directional grain" is heaven, no matter the hardness.
> 
> Going back to the build pics now... see ya in a week
> Scott :bye2:


 If You would like to try some, If You will pay the shipping , I will send You a few pieces. It IS really heavy. Just let Me know what You think about it.


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> I don't have a picture of any LO trees Steve. But I have this picture of some LO wood a guy I know in Georgia cut up and sent west. . . . .
> 
> http://i1077.Rule #2/albums/w468/WoodBarter/aStem-and-seven-full-frames-of-Southern-Live-Oak_zpse31157d5.jpg
> 
> *Here's a link *to one of many stories and articles that have been written about it. It's possible you may be familiar with this story. Might even be some of your blood and sweat in them thar timbers.
> 
> You told me about that topping out ceremony I think, but I forgot whether you were there for that or not. And if so do you know where they got the branch? - did it have any significance to the build?


 Kevin, I was not there for the topping out ceremony. I also do not know what the branch was(but I can find out). The hull is going to be launched next summer and They said They wanted Me there. 2,200 miles is a long way, but I would like to be there.
 As a side question, Could We make a curved vine trellis out of one (or more) of them Ship Frames?


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## rdnkmedic

Probably couldn't make a trellis out of it. Its the wrong color. Just sayin'.


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## Sprung

I'm not in a league to be discussing the merits of the various oaks with y'all, but there's a reason that, whenever my dad was building a boat in his garage, no matter what the rest of the boat was built of, the bow stem was always white oak. Reading about live oak makes me wanna say that it appears that it's a very worthwhile oak for many applications.

Steve - your mill and the milling work you did for the San Salvador is just impressive. The San Salvador itself is impressive too.


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## Mike1950

Cross Sawmill said:


> Mike1950 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I got a couple pieces from Rob. I have not cut it but sure has cool grain. Looking for the perfect project.
> 
> 
> 
> Could You give us a description and/or some photos of Your Live Oak? I am going to look through My pictures and left-over Live Oak and share some information about it. It has quite a range of qualities, but WE have to start somewhere.
Click to expand...


Looking at the ship photos- this is a pitiful little piece- but as asked here it is- drawer or drawer fronts is what it's future is. 

[attachment=32964]


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## Sprung

Mike, that sure is a nice looking chunk of wood! I'm guessing the wild grain yields some difficulty in working with it, but seeing that piece there makes me want to get my hands on some someday.


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## Cross Sawmill

rdnkmedic said:


> Probably couldn't make a trellis out of it. Its the wrong color. Just sayin'.


 Welll,OK!


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## Kevin

rdnkmedic said:


> Probably couldn't make a trellis out of it. Its the wrong color. Just sayin'.



Glad you reminded us of that. LO is way too dark for a trellis.


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## Kevin

Mike that's a nice chunk of LO - do you know where it grew?


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## Cross Sawmill

Sprung said:


> I'm not in a league to be discussing the merits of the various oaks with y'all, but there's a reason that, whenever my dad was building a boat in his garage, no matter what the rest of the boat was built of, the bow stem was always white oak. Reading about live oak makes me wanna say that it appears that it's a very worthwhile oak for many applications.
> 
> Steve - your mill and the milling work you did for the San Salvador is just impressive. The San Salvador itself is impressive too.


 White Oak is a well known wood for Ship/Boat building , even though Live Oak and White Oak are scientifically in the same family and have similarities, there are also differences. Among them hardness(Live Oak is much harder) , ability to bend (White Oak bends much better) , both have tyloses which inhibits fungus growth. Live Oak has a LOT more, which makes it superior for "Rot Resistance". For Any building job, wood selection is important, so it is good to be aware of the attributes of the different woods. Both from a mechanical aspect and visual appearance.
I liked the decision the San Diego Maritime made on The San Salvador Ship recreation. Try to use the best material, regardless of world sourcing. White Oak is a good material and I would use it ; Live Oak is also a good material. Put 10 experts in a room and You will get at least 15 opinions. More Later aka SuperAX


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## NYWoodturner

Cross Sawmill said:


> NYWoodturner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Steve - I couldn't begin to reply to the question, but looking at the myriad of pics of the build it just boggles my mind. I have only made it through one of the many galleries of pics by Jerry Soto, but I did find the one with the story board of what woods were used in the build. The fact card was not legible in the photo. Which parts were live oak used for?
> 
> From a turners perspective - anything with a "Curved non-directional grain" is heaven, no matter the hardness.
> 
> Going back to the build pics now... see ya in a week
> Scott :bye2:
> 
> 
> 
> If You would like to try some, If You will pay the shipping , I will send You a few pieces. It IS really heavy. Just let Me know what You think about it.
Click to expand...


I'd love to take you up on that offer. What size pieces ? (I'm almost afraid to ask that looking at those photos)


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## Mike1950

Kevin said:


> Mike that's a nice chunk of LO - do you know where it grew?



I got a few pieces from the rebuilds-so I assume Florida. I have 2 pieces left, the other is smaller. The grain is incredible. I will try to make something this winter with it and tell everyone what I think of it.


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## Cross Sawmill

Mike1950 said:


> Cross Sawmill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mike1950 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I got a couple pieces from Rob. I have not cut it but sure has cool grain. Looking for the perfect project.
> 
> 
> 
> Could You give us a description and/or some photos of Your Live Oak? I am going to look through My pictures and left-over Live Oak and share some information about it. It has quite a range of qualities, but WE have to start somewhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Looking at the ship photos- this is a pitiful little piece- but as asked here it is- drawer or drawer fronts is what it's future is.
Click to expand...

 I really could not tell the size, measurements help. But the grain looks great, what about a jewelry box?


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## Cross Sawmill

NYWoodturner said:


> Cross Sawmill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYWoodturner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Steve - I couldn't begin to reply to the question, but looking at the myriad of pics of the build it just boggles my mind. I have only made it through one of the many galleries of pics by Jerry Soto, but I did find the one with the story board of what woods were used in the build. The fact card was not legible in the photo. Which parts were live oak used for?
> 
> From a turners perspective - anything with a "Curved non-directional grain" is heaven, no matter the hardness.
> 
> Going back to the build pics now... see ya in a week
> Scott :bye2:
> 
> 
> 
> If You would like to try some, If You will pay the shipping , I will send You a few pieces. It IS really heavy. Just let Me know what You think about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'd love to take you up on that offer. What size pieces ? (I'm almost afraid to ask that looking at those photos)
Click to expand...

 Let Me look through My wood pile. I will find something big enough and not too big.


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## robert flynt

I've mentioned it before but it's worth repeating. The outer 2" of the trunk and the limbs have a tiger eye effect that is very nice. I've had it dyed and stabilized for knives and very few people knew what it was. When I let some spald and rot, the rot was a light yellow with the eye effect throughout it. A long time ago, after one of the hurricanes, some of it was collected to be used for repairs on " Old Ironsides".


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## Mike1950

Cross Sawmill said:


> Mike1950 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cross Sawmill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mike1950 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I got a couple pieces from Rob. I have not cut it but sure has cool grain. Looking for the perfect project.
> 
> 
> 
> Could You give us a description and/or some photos of Your Live Oak? I am going to look through My pictures and left-over Live Oak and share some information about it. It has quite a range of qualities, but WE have to start somewhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Looking at the ship photos- this is a pitiful little piece- but as asked here it is- drawer or drawer fronts is what it's future is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I really could not tell the size, measurements help. But the grain looks great, what about a jewelry box?
Click to expand...


On the big side 4x14 x 3 thick. a jewelry box-me- no way!!!! :rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3:


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## robert flynt

Down here liveoaks are protected from cutting but they going to build a minor leage baseball stadium is in Biloxi and a dozen or so live oaks will have to be removed. This could be a sawyers dream but they will probably go to a landfill.


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## Cross Sawmill

robert flynt said:


> Down here liveoaks are protected from cutting but they going to build a minor leage baseball stadium is in Biloxi and a dozen or so live oaks will have to be removed. This could be a sawyers dream but they will probably go to a landfill.


 Are the Live Oak protected by the State, City ,County or whom? I know that many people connect a great deal of sentimental value to certain types of trees among them Live Oak. I have seen estimates that a Live Oak ornamental (Residential) tree could have a value of 30,000 dollars. I also know that Live Oak can be a "Native Invasive". All Live Oak are not sacred monuments and are certainly not rare OR endangered. So in some cases they are Monumental Keepsakes, in other cases they are nothing more than "Big Old Giant Weeds". I believe the "Protectionist" attitude toward Live Oak is fueled more by emotion than education. I know that We are all sharing a ride on "Space Ship Earth" and I take proper considered action. But Live Oak are NOT rare or endangered. If someone wants some and has a budget I can get lots of them. If a Live Oak Tree has a span of half of an acre, the roots cover twice that. They will ruin an agricultural field quickly. Beauty is subjective and not everyone wants their property commandeered so a few people can get the "Warm Fuzzies". aka SuperAX


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## Cross Sawmill

Mike1950 said:


> Cross Sawmill said:
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> Mike1950 said:
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> Cross Sawmill said:
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> 
> 
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> Mike1950 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I got a couple pieces from Rob. I have not cut it but sure has cool grain. Looking for the perfect project.
> 
> 
> 
> Could You give us a description and/or some photos of Your Live Oak? I am going to look through My pictures and left-over Live Oak and share some information about it. It has quite a range of qualities, but WE have to start somewhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Looking at the ship photos- this is a pitiful little piece- but as asked here it is- drawer or drawer fronts is what it's future is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I really could not tell the size, measurements help. But the grain looks great, what about a jewelry box?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> On the big side 4x14 x 3 thick. a jewelry box-me- no way!!!! :rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3:
Click to expand...

 Just A though,I like jewelry boxes both for Myself,as gifts and to sell. They sometimes will bring a good price. Regardless, it is an outstanding piece and I am sure whatever You do with it will be impressive.


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## Mike1950

Cross Sawmill said:


> Mike1950 said:
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> Cross Sawmill said:
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> Mike1950 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cross Sawmill said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could You give us a description and/or some photos of Your Live Oak? I am going to look through My pictures and left-over Live Oak and share some information about it. It has quite a range of qualities, but WE have to start somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at the ship photos- this is a pitiful little piece- but as asked here it is- drawer or drawer fronts is what it's future is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I really could not tell the size, measurements help. But the grain looks great, what about a jewelry box?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> On the big side 4x14 x 3 thick. a jewelry box-me- no way!!!! :rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just A though,I like jewelry boxes both for Myself,as gifts and to sell. They sometimes will bring a good price. Regardless, it is an outstanding piece and I am sure whatever You do with it will be impressive.
Click to expand...


I was kidding- I love making boxes- jewelry boxes or? It is what will happen to it.

[attachment=33009]

[attachment=33010]


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## Cross Sawmill

Mike1950 said:


> Cross Sawmill said:
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> Mike1950 said:
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> Cross Sawmill said:
> 
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> Mike1950 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at the ship photos- this is a pitiful little piece- but as asked here it is- drawer or drawer fronts is what it's future is.
> 
> 
> 
> I really could not tell the size, measurements help. But the grain looks great, what about a jewelry box?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> On the big side 4x14 x 3 thick. a jewelry box-me- no way!!!! :rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just A though,I like jewelry boxes both for Myself,as gifts and to sell. They sometimes will bring a good price. Regardless, it is an outstanding piece and I am sure whatever You do with it will be impressive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was kidding- I love making boxes- jewelry boxes or? It is what will happen to it.
Click to expand...


Are either of these pieces Live Oak? The second appears to have a "Marbleized" polish that I have seen on Live Oak.


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## Mike1950

Cross Sawmill said:


> Mike1950 said:
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> Cross Sawmill said:
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> Mike1950 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cross Sawmill said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really could not tell the size, measurements help. But the grain looks great, what about a jewelry box?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the big side 4x14 x 3 thick. a jewelry box-me- no way!!!! :rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just A though,I like jewelry boxes both for Myself,as gifts and to sell. They sometimes will bring a good price. Regardless, it is an outstanding piece and I am sure whatever You do with it will be impressive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was kidding- I love making boxes- jewelry boxes or? It is what will happen to it.
> Are either of these pieces Live Oak? The second appears to have a "Marbleized" polish that I have seen on Live Oak.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Steve you are close but ---No- it is live oaks lowly cousin though. Red oak. Very wild piece of wood.


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## Cross Sawmill

NYWoodturner said:


> Steve - I couldn't begin to reply to the question, but looking at the myriad of pics of the build it just boggles my mind. I have only made it through one of the many galleries of pics by Jerry Soto, but I did find the one with the story board of what woods were used in the build. The fact card was not legible in the photo. Which parts were live oak used for?
> 
> From a turners perspective - anything with a "Curved non-directional grain" is heaven, no matter the hardness.
> 
> Going back to the build pics now... see ya in a week
> Scott :bye2:


 Oops, I used the wrong terminology; I meant to say Curved "Interlocking Grain". Earth to Steve!!!!


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## Cross Sawmill

Mike1950 said:


> Cross Sawmill said:
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> Mike1950 said:
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> Cross Sawmill said:
> 
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> Mike1950 said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the big side 4x14 x 3 thick. a jewelry box-me- no way!!!! :rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3::rotflmao3:
> 
> 
> 
> Just A though,I like jewelry boxes both for Myself,as gifts and to sell. They sometimes will bring a good price. Regardless, it is an outstanding piece and I am sure whatever You do with it will be impressive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was kidding- I love making boxes- jewelry boxes or? It is what will happen to it.
> Are either of these pieces Live Oak? The second appears to have a "Marbleized" polish that I have seen on Live Oak.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Steve you are close but ---No- it is live oaks lowly cousin though. Red oak. Very wild piece of wood.
Click to expand...

 It is still a visually stunning piece. BUT speaking of "Cousins", this might be a good place to bring up the fact that "OAK" is the "Mongrel Dog" of the Tree world. You can look out there and see a Red Dog. You know He is a Red Dog because You are looking at Him. Does that show that"Either" of His parents are "Red Dogs" ;not really. Oak Trees are like that. A" live Oak " Tree can grow from the acorn of "Red Oaks" or "White Oaks" or vice-versa. Strange but True!
I believe this to be true. When I was first introduced to this concept, it was hard to believe it, but it IS an observable fact.


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## Kevin

Wow I never knew that - that's bizarre!


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## Cross Sawmill

robert flynt said:


> I've mentioned it before but it's worth repeating. The outer 2" of the trunk and the limbs have a tiger eye effect that is very nice. I've had it dyed and stabilized for knives and very few people knew what it was. When I let some spald and rot, the rot was a light yellow with the eye effect throughout it. A long time ago, after one of the hurricanes, some of it was collected to be used for repairs on " Old Ironsides".


 I have some Live Oak Slabs left over from my cutting. Would it be worth it to try to "Mill-Out" some of material You were talking about? I recently had a call from Milt Ryan, who is the "In Charge Guy" at The USS CONSTITUTION and He said that They were going to "Haul" Old Ironsides for a MAJOR rebuild in 2015. Regardless of the "Hype" , I do not think they are going to use much Live Oak in the rebuild. Get some of Your People to contact Him/Them and let Us know what happens. As a Side Note, do You know Bill Holland ,the famous Ship Builder? I think He is in Gulf Port.


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> Wow I never knew that - that's bizarre!


 Kevin, You are right, It IS stranger than Strange! In the southeast area where Oaks moved in and replaced "Long Leaf Pine" it is a lot easier to observe than in the northern forests where "Pure" stands (ALL the Dogs are Red) exist. BUT it IS a FACT that The Oak Trees will cross-pollinate.


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## Mike1950

Cross Sawmill said:


> Kevin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow I never knew that - that's bizarre!
> 
> 
> 
> Kevin, You are right, It IS stranger than Strange! In the southeast area where Oaks moved in and replaced "Long Leaf Pine" it is a lot easier to observe than in the northern forests where "Pure" stands (ALL the Dogs are Red) exist. BUT it IS a FACT that The Oak Trees will cross-pollinate.
Click to expand...


probably why there are so many oaks.


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## Kevin

I know oaks hybridize - I have written about that here on this forum, but I had no idea live oak could come from either red or white. That's fascinating. That's like making a mule from a horse and a donkey, don't you think? I wonder if live oaks can make live oaks? Because mules cannot make more mules they are sterile. I find this topic absolutely fascinating thanks for making me aware of this.


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> I know oaks hybridize - I have written about that here on this forum, but I had no idea live oak could come from either red or white. That's fascinating. That's like making a mule from a horse and a donkey, don't you think? I wonder if live oaks can make live oaks? Because mules cannot make more mules they are sterile. I find this topic absolutely fascinating thanks for making me aware of this.


 Dey Ain'T Moole's or Donkee's .Dey is Dawgs!


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## Cross Sawmill

The Oaks are interesting Plants. As is widely held "IF" One wants consistent color in Oaks, Source from the Northern States as One is more likely to find "Pure" stands of whatever kind of Oak One is looking. PLENTY of southern Oak is shipped Up-North and sawed there. But it is selected by "Botanical " description. How does One do that? Just follow the description. If one wants a Red Dog that has Shaggy Hair and Long Ears, One just looks for A Dog that looks like that. It does not mean the parents looked like that. As far as I know ALL of the Hybrid Acorns are viable.


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## Blueglass

This is a very interesting thread from a couple perspectives. The wood is very pretty. I've never used oak much. I've seen my father have issues with stability in some gorgeous furniture. May be his fault though, he is a master craftsmen, but sometimes his patience is lacking.


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## Cross Sawmill

Blueglass said:


> This is a very interesting thread from a couple perspectives. The wood is very pretty. I've never used oak much. I've seen my father have issues with stability in some gorgeous furniture. May be his fault though, he is a master craftsmen, but sometimes his patience is lacking.


 Thank You for a very valid point, Hardness=Stress; Swirl Grain =Stress.
In general' Hardness= Ability to take High Polish; Swirl Grain= Figure.
Hard Swirl Grain material IS challenging.


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## NYWoodturner

Cross Sawmill said:


> Blueglass said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very interesting thread from a couple perspectives. The wood is very pretty. I've never used oak much. I've seen my father have issues with stability in some gorgeous furniture. May be his fault though, he is a master craftsmen, but sometimes his patience is lacking.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank You for a very valid point, Hardness=Stress; Swirl Grain =Stress.
> In general' Hardness= Ability to take High Polish; Swirl Grain= Figure.
> Hard Swirl Grain material IS challenging.
Click to expand...



Yeah but there's nothing like it when you beat it!


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## Mike1950

NYWoodturner said:


> Cross Sawmill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blueglass said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very interesting thread from a couple perspectives. The wood is very pretty. I've never used oak much. I've seen my father have issues with stability in some gorgeous furniture. May be his fault though, he is a master craftsmen, but sometimes his patience is lacking.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank You for a very valid point, Hardness=Stress; Swirl Grain =Stress.
> In general' Hardness= Ability to take High Polish; Swirl Grain= Figure.
> Hard Swirl Grain material IS challenging.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah but there's nothing like it when you beat it!
Click to expand...


Hell- if it was easy -would you want to do it? Predictable and perfect is not what we seek. It is the magic of the wild wood that is our pot-a-gold at he end of the rainbow.........


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## Cross Sawmill

OK, is everyone as confused as I am? Good! If Oaks hybridize, and One can have a Jillion variations does that mean they are all the same? NO! To use My "Dog Anology", A Peekapoo ain't a Bulldog. So what does that mean? It means that there are many variations of "Oak" , from straight grain(Plain) Oak to the Highly Figured Oak that Mike1950 shared the pictures of. SO "Onward Through the Fog". Since this is sort of focused on the Live Oak; What makes it different? Well in "The World According To Steve", it is the Evergreen Leaves. When the tree has Evergreen Leaves it has what "I" call a "Tropical" growth pattern in the wood grain. Deciduous Trees that shed their leaves have clearly discernible rings. Deciduous Trees that are Evergreens(Live Oak) have a much less discernible grain. One can sort of still see it, but it it not definite like the ones that are winter dormant.


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## Kevin

This hurts my brain so early in the morn . . . .


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> This hurts my brain so early in the morn . . . .


 Kevin, I have been reviewing several Scientific Research papers on Oaks and Oak Hybridization. Although I respect research, Sometime the question comes up; Who are You going to believe ,The Research Paper, or Your Lying Eyes?


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## Cross Sawmill

NYWoodturner said:


> I'd love to take you up on that offer. What size pieces ? (I'm almost afraid to ask that looking at those photos)


 How about if We put what will fit in a "Flat Rate" box to try it out?


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## Kevin

Cross Sawmill said:


> .... Who are You going to believe ,The Research Paper, or Your Lying Eyes?



I know what you mean. I have a few areas of disagreements with "research" and my own experience both with spalting and flames in BE. In both cases where I have stuck to my guns where my own experience conflicted with research, one or more members will cite the research as the authority when they themselves have little or no experience in the respective areas. I've probably been guilty of that myself a time or two but I try not to be. 

I think your theory holds water. Sounds logical anyway, and there's definitely something about LO that makes it markedly different. That we know, and the evergreen angle has to make some kind of difference.


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## NYWoodturner

Cross Sawmill said:


> How about if We put what will fit in a "Flat Rate" box to try it out?


Sonds good to me. Fill and LFRB and send me your pay pal info and I will send payment. Thanks !


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## Cross Sawmill

I know from My experience cutting Live Oak for The San Salvador Ship Project that MANY people are misinformed as to the RARITY of Live Oak. Bainbridge ,Georgia, 20 miles from here has an ordinance against cutting Live Oak. Tallahassee ,Florida 60 miles from here has an ordinance also. Many other Cities also have these "Laws". Why? Well Meaning People taking uninformed action? While this is going on Farmers are buying and renting Big Excavators and Loaders to remove Live Oak and trying to give them away. No body will buy them because No body can sell them. BUT when they are used for special projects (Ships) Certain Ones (One out of a thousand) has value. Anybody?


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## Mike1950

Why do cities make the laws saving things we have plenty of- Makes really good headlines.....


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## Cross Sawmill

Cross Sawmill said:


> *RE: Live Oak "Quercus Virginiana "Trash or Tresure?*
> 
> 
> 
> Thank You for Your comment and insight. The frames for the Ship were made of double-sawn and triple-sawn futtock Live Oak. That means that were double and triple layers of overlapping pieces. Google "The Great Saw---San Salvador". More Later.


 I just wanted remind everyone that The San Salvador build site is open to the public for an admission ticket. A ticket for the build site and the San Diego Maritime Museum is only 16 dollars. If Someone was in the San Diego area it would be a good way to spend a day. The San Diego Maritime Museum is the top ranked Maritime Museum in the USA. Tell them I sent You.

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## Cross Sawmill

Speaking of The San Salvador (the Live Oak part of it anyway), The Live Oak frames were exposed to the weather for close to two years . When Maverick Jaillet (Carving Instructor for King Arthur's Tools) was in California recently He went by the build site. He said the frames looked Great. That was on the shore of San Diego Bay where the humidity cycles from very dry (desert wind) to very wet (ocean wind). I believe an outdoor structure made from it would be very durable. Also when it is cut quartered sawn/ vertical grain it often exhibits a strong tiger stripe pattern. I like Live Oak, but it is a very challenging material to make a profit from. I have not given up by a long shot, I am still learning how to possibly handle it.

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## Cross Sawmill

Fun Fact, prior to the USA Civil/UnCivil War, Live Oak was the highest priced Hardwood in the USA and maybe the World. Production techniques for Steel took a HUGE leap during that time and made the Live Oak a moot point for Ship Building, which was where it's value was. Virginia Steele Wood's (Her real name) book "Live Oaking; Southern Timber For Tall Ships" is a fascinating historical read.

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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> Wow I never knew that - that's bizarre!


Kevin, are You ready for more "Strange but True"? The two biggest tree types in the East are Bald Cypress and Live Oak. The first is a deciduous evergreen, the second is an evergreen deciduous. No wonder We stay confused!


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## robert flynt

Cross Sawmill said:


> Are the Live Oak protected by the State, City ,County or whom? I know that many people connect a great deal of sentimental value to certain types of trees among them Live Oak. I have seen estimates that a Live Oak ornamental (Residential) tree could have a value of 30,000 dollars. I also know that Live Oak can be a "Native Invasive". All Live Oak are not sacred monuments and are certainly not rare OR endangered. So in some cases they are Monumental Keepsakes, in other cases they are nothing more than "Big Old Giant Weeds". I believe the "Protectionist" attitude toward Live Oak is fueled more by emotion than education. I know that We are all sharing a ride on "Space Ship Earth" and I take proper considered action. But Live Oak are NOT rare or endangered. If someone wants some and has a budget I can get lots of them. If a Live Oak Tree has a span of half of an acre, the roots cover twice that. They will ruin an agricultural field quickly. Beauty is subjective and not everyone wants their property commandeered so a few people can get the "Warm Fuzzies". aka SuperAX


All the cities along the Miss. coast have tree ordanances that protect certain species. An arborist has to check the tree and sign off on it being cut.


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## robert flynt

Cross Sawmill said:


> I have some Live Oak Slabs left over from my cutting. Would it be worth it to try to "Mill-Out" some of material You were talking about? I recently had a call from Milt Ryan, who is the "In Charge Guy" at The USS CONSTITUTION and He said that They were going to "Haul" Old Ironsides for a MAJOR rebuild in 2015. Regardless of the "Hype" , I do not think they are going to use much Live Oak in the rebuild. Get some of Your People to contact Him/Them and let Us know what happens. As a Side Note, do You know Bill Holland ,the famous Ship Builder? I think He is in Gulf Port.


 I don't know him personelly but most of everyone on the coast knows his work. He is one of the last old wood boat builders left. He and another one of the old boat builder were commissioned to separately built Biloxi shcooners and raced them to see who had the fastest boat. I can't remember who won but the schooners are still used for special events and charters. Those specialized shallow draft vessels were the workhorse of the gulf coast before diesel power made sailing vessels obsolete. The schooner and his Cat boats are a beautiful to see under sail.

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## robert flynt

Kevin said:


> I know oaks hybridize - I have written about that here on this forum, but I had no idea live oak could come from either red or white. That's fascinating. That's like making a mule from a horse and a donkey, don't you think? I wonder if live oaks can make live oaks? Because mules cannot make more mules they are sterile. I find this topic absolutely fascinating thanks for making me aware of this. :eek:k:


 Kevin, I have this oak tree I planted 15 yrs. ago that has leaves that are dark green and shaped much like a live oak and it even sheds its leaves in the spring like a live oak but the shape, bark and acorns look nothing like one. The acorns look like those of a water oak. Don't know what to make of it.

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## Kevin

robert flynt said:


> Kevin, I have this oak tree I planted 15 yrs. ago that has leaves that are dark green and shaped much like a live oak and it even sheds its leaves in the spring like a live oak but the shape, bark and acorns look nothing like one. The acorns look like those of a water oak. Don't know what to make of it.



Yeah that's weird - sounds like a hybrid for sure. Those oaks just do not seem to have any resevrations about who they have sex with lol.

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## robert flynt

Cross Sawmill said:


> OK, is everyone as confused as I am? Good! If Oaks hybridize, and One can have a Jillion variations does that mean they are all the same? NO! To use My "Dog Anology", A Peekapoo ain't a Bulldog. So what does that mean? It means that there are many variations of "Oak" , from straight grain(Plain) Oak to the Highly Figured Oak that Mike1950 shared the pictures of. SO "Onward Through the Fog". Since this is sort of focused on the Live Oak; What makes it different? Well in "The World According To Steve", it is the Evergreen Leaves. When the tree has Evergreen Leaves it has what "I" call a "Tropical" growth pattern in the wood grain. Deciduous Trees that shed their leaves have clearly discernible rings. Deciduous Trees that are Evergreens(Live Oak) have a much less discernible grain. One can sort of still see it, but it it not definite like the ones that are winter dormant.


 Live oaks do shed there leaves down here, but in the spring. After that they put out new leaves and pollen tassels.


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## Cross Sawmill

robert flynt said:


> Live oaks do shed there leaves down here, but in the spring. After that they put out new leaves and pollen tassels.


 But not all of them, there is never a time that the Live Oak trees do not have leaves. Even though the ground is covered with leaves, so are the Live Oak Trees.


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> Yeah that's weird - sounds like a hybrid for sure. Those oaks just do not seem to have any resevrations about who they have sex with lol.


 In this case the "Tree" would be a Live Oak, in "The World according to Steve". The "Leaves" determine the "Lumber">


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## Cross Sawmill

robert flynt said:


> All the cities along the Miss. coast have tree ordanances that protect certain species. An arborist has to check the tree and sign off on it being cut.


 Which species and Why?


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## Cross Sawmill

robert flynt said:


> All the cities along the Miss. coast have tree ordanances that protect certain species. An arborist has to check the tree and sign off on it being cut.


 Why is "An Arborist" the "Decider" on a persons personal property that they own and are required to pay taxes on?


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## Cross Sawmill

On My property, I have hundreds of Live Oak, these Live Oak are in both categories. Some of them are Majestic Botanical Features and some of them are Big Old Giant Weeds. Since I own the property(at least lease it from the bank) and pay taxes on it, I feel that "I" should be the person that assigns value to them. The ordinances that Cities (it is ALWAYS cities) have controlling peoples personal property are unlawful on several levels. One being "Seizure" without compensation. If it is for "The Common Good" ,the "Ordinance'' makers should follow proper,legal procedures and acquire the CONTROLLED property and COMPENSATE the property owner. It (The Ordinances) is not Constitutional .


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## Cross Sawmill

robert flynt said:


> Kevin, I have this oak tree I planted 15 yrs. ago that has leaves that are dark green and shaped much like a live oak and it even sheds its leaves in the spring like a live oak but the shape, bark and acorns look nothing like one. The acorns look like those of a water oak. Don't know what to make of it.


 What is "The Shape, Bark and Acorns" of a "Live Oak"? On The San Salvador Project, We had to De-bark the Flitches to send them to California. We did that with Axes and Drawknifes. After De-barking Six Semi-Loads, I can say there is a LOT of variation in the Bark.


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## Kevin

Cross Sawmill said:


> Kevin, are You ready for more "Strange but True"? The two biggest tree types in the East are Bald Cypress and Live Oak. The first is a deciduous evergreen, the second is an evergreen deciduous. No wonder We stay confused!



That's wild. Never knew that. Where does Sycamore fit into the "biggest" category? I have always thought Sycamore grew to be the largest NA hardwood?


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## robert flynt

Cross Sawmill said:


> What is "The Shape, Bark and Acorns" of a "Live Oak"? On The San Salvador Project, We had to De-bark the Flitches to send them to California. We did that with Axes and Drawknifes. After De-barking Six Semi-Loads, I can say there is a LOT of variation in the Bark.


 Down the live oaks shed almost if not completely in the early spring and look really barren before putting out new leaves. The young trees are more scragly and don't grow straight up like the water oak do. The bark is more course than water oaks and is usually darker. The acorns are elongated and a rich shinny brown where the water oak acorn is not as shinny and is more punkin shaped.


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> That's wild. Never knew that. Where does Sycamore fit into the "biggest" category? I have always thought Sycamore grew to be the largest NA hardwood?


 Kevin, I looked up trees on "The Big Tree Registry", the Big Sycamore listed had 567 points, the Big Bald Cypress has 762. For some reason (probably because it would break the meter) they did not list a Live Oak. I believe Live Oaks can be bigger than Sycamore. Anybody? What is the "Ranking"?


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## Cross Sawmill

robert flynt said:


> Down the live oaks shed almost if not completely in the early spring and look really barren before putting out new leaves. The young trees are more scragly and don't grow straight up like the water oak do. The bark is more course than water oaks and is usually darker. The acorns are elongated and a rich shinny brown where the water oak acorn is not as shinny and is more punkin shaped.


 Robert, A few years back, I also thought what You said. And in many cases that is true. But, They can grow Up-right with 30 to 50 foot stems. I personally witnessed one 36 foot to the first limb and numerous one 30 plus foot. I did not witness it but I was told by a reputable person that they harvested some 5o foot plus to the first limb. I called these trees "Live Oak" and they had evergreen leaves and "Tropical" pattern on the milled wood . IF they are not Quercus Virgiana, what are they?


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## DKMD

I've been following this thread since it's inception. I just wanted to say thanks to the folks who've contributed here... I've learned a thing or three. I definitely hope my daughter is lacking any of the oak tree reproductive characteristics!

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## Kevin

Cross Sawmill said:


> Kevin, I looked up trees on "The Big Tree Registry", the Big Sycamore listed had 567 points, the Big Bald Cypress has 762. ...


 That's where I went awry. I wasn't talking about the point system, although I should have assumed that's what you would have meant. I was just referring to the trunk size. (CAVEAT: I'm about to say "I know I read somewhere...") :D

But I know I read somewhere that when left to grow that sycamore attains the largest trunk diameter of any north american hardwood or maybe eastern hardwood. But I know that saying "I read somewhere" doesn't hold much water. At any rate, I doubt sycamore can compete with the crown of a big live oak.


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## robert flynt

Cross Sawmill said:


> Robert, A few years back, I also thought what You said. And in many cases that is true. But, They can grow Up-right with 30 to 50 foot stems. I personally witnessed one 36 foot to the first limb and numerous one 30 plus foot. I did not witness it but I was told by a reputable person that they harvested some 5o foot plus to the first limb. I called these trees "Live Oak" and they had evergreen leaves and "Tropical" pattern on the milled wood . IF they are not Quercus Virgiana, what are they?


We also have a lot with long trunks, I guess what I was trying to say is they have more of an umbrella shaped canopy than most other oaks. I do consider them evergreen because they sprout the catkins quickly and the new leaves are rapidly behind that so they are barren for only a very short length of time but not evergreen like pine trees, cedars, or holly.


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## robert flynt

Cross Sawmill said:


> Why is "An Arborist" the "Decider" on a persons personal property that they own and are required to pay taxes on?


I really don't know the answer to your questions. What I do remember is that over a certain diameter live oaks magnolias, bay and some other species I don't remember are protected.


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> That's where I went awry. I wasn't talking about the point system, although I should have assumed that's what you would have meant. I was just referring to the trunk size. (CAVEAT: I'm about to say "I know I read somewhere...") :D
> 
> But I know I read somewhere that when left to grow that sycamore attains the largest trunk diameter of any north american hardwood or maybe eastern hardwood. But I know that saying "I read somewhere" doesn't hold much water. At any rate, I doubt sycamore can compete with the crown of a big live oak.[/quote
> That would be a good research question. I know that Sycamore grow huge. Around here, only 40 0r 50 inches, but elsewhere much bigger. There is a Live Oak near here that is in the top three in Georgia,(possibly no.1) that has a circumference. How does One measure size?


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## Cross Sawmill

OK! I know better than than to try to "one-finger" type before I have at least two cups of coffee. As previously stated if One asks 10 experts, One gets at least 15 opinions. The University of Virginia lists Sycamore as the North American Hardwood with the biggest trunk diameter. It says the Sycamore attains a diameter of 10 feet. There is a local Live Oak that has a DBH circumference of 32 plus feet. I have seen this tree numerous times as it is less 10 miles from here. It is sometimes difficult to correlate "Research" with "Direct Observation". What have people actually seen? What criteria for size? Diameter? Stem Length ? Diameter Plus Stem Length? Total Volume? I am getting dizzy again!!!!! Earth to Steve!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Kevin

Cross Sawmill said:


> ....There is a local Live Oak that has a DBH circumference of 32 plus feet. ...



I don't follow you Steve. Is the DBH 32 feet? Or is the circumference 32 feet? I assume the latter of course, which means the tree has a circumference of 32 feet making its diameter 10 feet. I think I follow the gist of what you're saying and if so I agree with it. Just because you might never have seen a sheep bark at the moon, doesn't mean they don't sometimes. And just because we might read some guy who said sycamore trunks grow the biggest, we can probably find a 100 specimens within another dozen or so species with bigger trunks if we look enough.


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> I don't follow you Steve. Is the DBH 32 feet? Or is the circumference 32 feet? I assume the latter of course, which means the tree has a circumference of 32 feet making its diameter 10 feet. I think I follow the gist of what you're saying and if so I agree with it. Just because you might never have seen a sheep bark at the moon, doesn't mean they don't sometimes. And just because we might read some guy who said sycamore trunks grow the biggest, we can probably find a 100 specimens within another dozen or so species with bigger trunks if we look enough.


 I meant Circumference at breast height ;CBH. Wrapping a tape Around it , which would place the DBH( diameter breast height) at around 10 feet. Maybe I should have drank three cups of coffee, before I tried that description. This tree is in the top three in Georgia, BUT not 100 feet around. PS wonder what a ten foot Sycamore would look like quartered sawed?


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## Cross Sawmill

Now We are getting somewhere talking big trees. I would like to get My hands on some of them big Sycamores. Judging from the inquiries I receive there is a lot more demand for quartered (snakeskin) Sycamore than there is for Live Oak. Spalted quartered Sycamore is even better. What else is big?


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## Treecycle Hardwoods

Cross Sawmill said:


> Now We are getting somewhere talking big trees. I would like to get My hands on some of them big Sycamores. Judging from the inquiries I receive there is a lot more demand for quartered (snakeskin) Sycamore than there is for Live Oak. Spalted quartered Sycamore is even better. What else is big?


Willows are big but not that big. Not the most popular hardwood but I have luthiers buy it from me for cellos and violas.


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## Cross Sawmill

What is the biggest tree that anyone has personally seen? I believe for Me it is the Live Oak I was referring to.


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## Mike1950

I have seen the general sherman sequoia in washington we only have these puny ones left


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## Treecycle Hardwoods

For me it was a 6' dia willow. One of the neighbors down the road lost one in a storm when I first got my mill. A 30" dia branch broke off the tree and fell on his farming equipment. I brought my forklift over and plucked it off took it home and milled it. I thought it was a perfect log to practice on :D:D:D. Turns out willow is full of color and awesome figure! I ended up selling almost all of the lumber to a guy from the north woods who came down for walnut & cherry. After he loaded all the willow he didn't have room for what he came for.


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## Treecycle Hardwoods

Mike1950 said:


> I have seen the general sherman sequoia in washington we only have these puny ones leftView attachment 33485


That's a big tree mike! You west coast guys have an unfair advantage on the size contest. :p:p


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## Mike1950

I cannot get a decent picture of it but the largest red cedar in the world is almost dead-19.5 ft in diameter. The big leafs in the park have a ton + of moss hanging from them. Everything in the park is huge- ferns, slugs. 140+ inches a rain stuff grows. Worth a trip if you get close to the Olympic peninsula. the one above is one of the largest spruce in the world.


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## Mike1950

PS the chest high measurement does not really work on that tree-that guy is already 4' off of the ground... and I am talking his feet.


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## Cross Sawmill

Treecycle Hardwoods said:


> For me it was a 6' dia willow. One of the neighbors down the road lost one in a storm when I first got my mill. A 30" dia branch broke off the tree and fell on his farming equipment. I brought my forklift over and plucked it off took it home and milled it. I thought it was a perfect log to practice on :D:D:D. Turns out willow is full of color and awesome figure! I ended up selling almost all of the lumber to a guy from the north woods who came down for walnut & cherry. After he loaded all the willow he didn't have room for what he came for.


 Greg, I find it very interesting how the tree size varies from region to region. We have Willow here (I assume it is the same Willow You have), but in extremely rare cases does it get even 2 feet diameter and usually only 1 foot.


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## Treecycle Hardwoods

Yip that is how I feel about cherry trees! They get so big in other areas but a 20" here is a big one anything that size and bigger is almost always rotten in the middle.


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## Cross Sawmill

Treecycle Hardwoods said:


> Yip that is how I feel about cherry trees! They get so big in other areas but a 20" here is a big one anything that size and bigger is almost always rotten in the middle.


 Greg, When the World was made of 100 dollar bills, We cut 75 semi-loads of commercial Cherry (1'' for cabinets). Most of the logs were 16'' to 30'', but We got one that was 46'' on the small end. I cut them into 3'' slabs and sold out quickly. The best ones were bought by one of My friends who made a kitchen island and a library desk out of them. He paid a fair price for them, but it still makes Me sort of jealous when I see them.


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## Treecycle Hardwoods

It would be nice to have a cherry log 30"+ to mill. That makes me jealous! lol


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## Cross Sawmill

Doyle Log Scale--- 2'by16'=400bf----4'by16'=1,836bf----6'by16=4,615bf-----8'by16'=8,755bf-----10'by 16'=13,450bf


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## Cross Sawmill

According to The Iaido Journal; Janka Hardness----------Live Oak 3200---White Oak 1333------Red Oak ----1290 Ipe-----3342


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## Kevin

Cross Sawmill said:


> According to The Iaido Journal; Janka Hardness----------Live Oak 3200---White Oak 1333------Red Oak ----1290 Ipe-----3342



And hardheads like you and me 5500. :D

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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> And hardheads like you and me 5500. :D


 You meant 55,000

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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> I don't follow you Steve. Is the DBH 32 feet? Or is the circumference 32 feet? I assume the latter of course, which means the tree has a circumference of 32 feet making its diameter 10 feet. I think I follow the gist of what you're saying and if so I agree with it. Just because you might never have seen a sheep bark at the moon, doesn't mean they don't sometimes. And just because we might read some guy who said sycamore trunks grow the biggest, we can probably find a 100 specimens within another dozen or so species with bigger trunks if we look enough.


 Kevin, this reminds Me of the time I said that I felt like no one understood Me. The people I said that to, said "What do You mean by that?"


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## Cross Sawmill

robert flynt said:


> Kevin, I have this oak tree I planted 15 yrs. ago that has leaves that are dark green and shaped much like a live oak and it even sheds its leaves in the spring like a live oak but the shape, bark and acorns look nothing like one. The acorns look like those of a water oak. Don't know what to make of it.


 When We were harvesting Live Oak for The San Salvador and cut down the tall Live Oak trees , I am pretty sure they were "Flat-Tops" sort of shaped like Bald Cypress on the upper portion. It was WAYYY up there through a forest canopy,but i am pretty sure from what I could see while they were standing and cut down, they were "Flat-Tops" which did not match the University of Georgia's description for Live Oak.


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## robert flynt

Cross Sawmill said:


> When We were harvesting Live Oak for The San Salvador and cut down the tall Live Oak trees , I am pretty sure they were "Flat-Tops" sort of shaped like Bald Cypress on the upper portion. It was WAYYY up there through a forest canopy,but i am pretty sure from what I could see while they were standing and cut down, they were "Flat-Tops" which did not match the University of Georgia's description for Live Oak.


 Have you ever noticed how trees that are crowded have no limbs on the lower part of the tree and they grow tall to get and stay above the other trees that are crowding them. Pine trees that have been crowded make the best power poles because without the knots they are stronger. That is one reason in pine plantations the trees are planted so close together and thinned out at a certain age. Competition changes the normal growth of any tree.


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## Mike1950

robert flynt said:


> Have you ever noticed how trees that are crowded have no limbs on the lower part of the tree and they grow tall to get and stay above the other trees that are crowding them. Pine trees that have been crowded make the best power poles because without the knots they are stronger. That is one reason in pine plantations the trees are planted so close together and thinned out at a certain age. Competition changes the normal growth of any tree.




But robert if you are in the PNW there are absolutely no pine power poles- it is untought of. They are usually western red cedar grown in the valley crowded straight and skinny. They are light straight and suck up the preservative. Maybe larch also- but Pine here would rot and fall over. Your observation is the same here though.............


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## Cross Sawmill

robert flynt said:


> Have you ever noticed how trees that are crowded have no limbs on the lower part of the tree and they grow tall to get and stay above the other trees that are crowding them. Pine trees that have been crowded make the best power poles because without the knots they are stronger. That is one reason in pine plantations the trees are planted so close together and thinned out at a certain age. Competition changes the normal growth of any tree.


 If we are attempting a description of anything, in this case Live Oak a good description includes the variable growth patterns, I did a lot of "boots on the ground research" of Live Oak and the commonly held scientific and "common belief" is lacking as it ignores a heck of a lot of easily observable Live Oak forms.


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## Cross Sawmill

Cross Sawmill said:


> If we are attempting a description of anything, in this case Live Oak a good description includes the variable growth patterns, I did a lot of "boots on the ground research" of Live Oak and the commonly held scientific and "common belief" is lacking as it ignores a heck of a lot of easily observable Live Oak forms.


PS What is normal for a Live Oak?


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## Cross Sawmill

Cross Sawmill said:


> PS What is normal for a Live Oak?


If it is growing conditions that dictate the shape of a Live Oak, Our current concept of NORMAL is the wrong one.


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## Cross Sawmill

OK! Let Me see if I have this straight? If Pine trees are crowded and grow up tall without limbs, that is normal? If Cedar trees are crowded and grow straight and tall that is a normal "Pattern" for the tree? If any tree is crowded, it tends to grow straight and tall . But for some odd reason ,many people think that the only "Right"way for a Live Oak tree to grow is a big "Bush" shape. I understand how a person that does not go into the deep woods could think this. But for University and Forestry people to say this is uneducated. 


robert flynt said:


> Have you ever noticed how trees that are crowded have no limbs on the lower part of the tree and they grow tall to get and stay above the other trees that are crowding them. Pine trees that have been crowded make the best power poles because without the knots they are stronger. That is one reason in pine plantations the trees are planted so close together and thinned out at a certain age. Competition changes the normal growth of any tree.


 Define Normal.


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## robert flynt

Pine is pressure treated and used as pole almost exclusively down because it is the most available and economical but like you say Mike they couldn't stand up to the extremely moist conditions there, I should have added down here to that sentence, my bad. The worst enemy for our poles down here is the termite and wood peckers. In some places they have to wrap the upper part with hardware cloth to keep the wood peckers from weakening them.


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## Mike1950

robert flynt said:


> Pine is pressure treated and used as pole almost exclusively down because it is the most available and economical but like you say Mike they couldn't stand up to the extremely moist conditions there, I should have added down here to that sentence, my bad. The worst enemy for our poles down here is the termite and wood peckers. In some places they have to wrap the upper part with hardware cloth to keep the wood peckers from weakening them.




Not bad, just different robert. 80 % of washington is semi arid- everything east of the mountains. Same with Ore. I think they like the cedar because they are lightweight an suck up the preservatives. We have woodpeckers but they do not bother the poles.


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## robert flynt

If trees of any species are allowed to grow unhendered each species usually has a certain shape when mature. I think that is what the experts are refering to. If you were going to describe to someone who was not knowlegeable about a certain species of tree how would you do it?Although in mother nature there are many variable I don't consider these people uneducated and I don't consider my self an expert, if others do, so be it, but I feel this has been discussed enough and I am gracefully bowing out. If there is someone that has an opinions and is more knowledgable in this subject they can take up where I leave off. I don't feel the need to have the last word for mine was an observation on my part not expert opinion.


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## robert flynt

Mike1950 said:


> Not bad, just different robert. 80 % of washington is semi arid- everything east of the mountains. Same with Ore. I think they like the cedar because they are lightweight an suck up the preservatives. We have woodpeckers but they do not bother the poles.


 Heck if you keep an open mind you learn a lot Mike. I didn't know that about that part of the country. Haven't been out that way but would love to one day.


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## Cross Sawmill

robert flynt said:


> If trees of any species are allowed to grow unhendered each species usually has a certain shape when mature. I think that is what the experts are refering to. If you were going to describe to someone who was not knowlegeable about a certain species of tree how would you do it?Although in mother nature there are many variable I don't consider these people uneducated and I don't consider my self an expert, if others do, so be it, but I feel this has been discussed enough and I am gracefully bowing out. If there is someone that has an opinions and is more knowledgable in this subject they can take up where I leave off. I don't feel the need to have the last word for mine was an observation on my part not expert opinion.


Robert, On this discussion about Live Oak, I feel that it is important to share actual information about Live Oak and do not take it personally when I am shown not to have a complete understanding of a subject, it makes me happy as I see it as an opportunity to further educate myself. I was sharing with the interested parties how an accepted description of a "tree/Live Oak" could be incomplete. What I meant by uneducated was not having the desire to learn. Your description and perception of growth patterns of Live Oak is incomplete (as mine is also). Nothing personal, but the purpose of this thread was to share that information and get information. Perhaps if you reviewed the descriptions of trees,most/all are described in a forest situation. As you said there are many variables and a complete educated description includes them. To only describe a Live Oak in an unnatural setting (by itself) is ignoring a lot of information (uneducated). I reviewed the number of views on this thread and I do not believe that only You and I accounted for 1085 views. If you choose not to participate, that is your choice, I was just pointing out that a lot of information out there about Live Oak is incomplete/wrong. If you or anyone has other information, it is certainly welcome. That is the reason for this thread.


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## Cross Sawmill

NYWoodturner said:


> I'd love to take you up on that offer. What size pieces ? (I'm almost afraid to ask that looking at those photos)


 Send me your address and I will send you a piece, I do not have a paypal,but I will send it and we will figure it out.


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## Cross Sawmill

How about this? The first national purchase was a Live Oak forest in 1789.


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## robert flynt

Cross Sawmill said:


> Robert, On this discussion about Live Oak, I feel that it is important to share actual information about Live Oak and do not take it personally when I am shown not to have a complete understanding of a subject, it makes me happy as I see it as an opportunity to further educate myself. I was sharing with the interested parties how an accepted description of a "tree/Live Oak" could be incomplete. What I meant by uneducated was not having the desire to learn. Your description and perception of growth patterns of Live Oak is incomplete (as mine is also). Nothing personal, but the purpose of this thread was to share that information and get information. Perhaps if you reviewed the descriptions of trees,most/all are described in a forest situation. As you said there are many variables and a complete educated description includes them. To only describe a Live Oak in an unnatural setting (by itself) is ignoring a lot of information (uneducated). I reviewed the number of views on this thread and I do not believe that only You and I accounted for 1085 views. If you choose not to participate, that is your choice, I was just pointing out that a lot of information out there about Live Oak is incomplete/wrong. If you or anyone has other information, it is certainly welcome. That is the reason for this thread.


 Thanks for the clarification Steve. I have an old " Trees Of The South " book published by Charlotte Hilton Green in 1939 that I go to when I need a quick ID. but I'm an old knifemaker at heart. If the wood looks good enough I use it but I'm not a sawer so I don't get to deep into the subject.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NYWoodturner

Steve - Did you by chance find anything that would make a good turning in your wood pile?


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## Cross Sawmill

NYWoodturner said:


> Steve - Did you by chance find anything that would make a good turning in your wood pile?


 I looked at a piece that I think might make an interesting shape. I will have to get a flat rate box and see if it will fit. I am working on a table on a sort of rush order, but I should be able to get something by the first of next week.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cross Sawmill

robert flynt said:


> Thanks for the clarification Steve. I have an old " Trees Of The South " book published by Charlotte Hilton Green in 1939 that I go to when I need a quick ID. but I'm an old knifemaker at heart. If the wood looks good enough I use it but I'm not a sawer so I don't get to deep into the subject.


 Robert, thanks for your message. If you would like to have some Live Oak for your knifes, let me know what you like. I could cut some of that "outer" layer.

Reactions: Like 1


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## robert flynt

Cross Sawmill said:


> Robert, thanks for your message. If you would like to have some Live Oak for your knifes, let me know what you like. I could cut some of that "outer" layer.


 Thanks for the offer and I will be taking you up on it in the future. I've been watching a piece laying in a vacant lot that is about 3' in diameter a about the same in length. It should be well spalded by now so I'm going to find the lot owner to see if I can cut it up. Want to send some off to have it dyed and stabilized. That wood is so dense the last co. I used didn't get much penetration with there product. They were not the co. I normally use and I wont use them again.


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## NYWoodturner

Cross Sawmill said:


> I looked at a piece that I think might make an interesting shape. I will have to get a flat rate box and see if it will fit. I am working on a table on a sort of rush order, but I should be able to get something by the first of next week.



Thanks Steve. No hurry, I just wanted to keep it open. All this discussion of Live Oak has me really intrigued. Thanks a million 
Scott


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## robert flynt

Mike, I think you will like live oak, the wood is so dense it will polish nicely. The inner wood has some real unusual looks to it and turns an unusual tan color. If you want to have some fun try to drive a nail through it. The wood is so hard to split the people selling firewood want hardly fool with anything but the limbs. I tried to split some with an ax once, the ax bounced off of it like it didn't have an edge. Tried a wedge and almost didn't get it out of the wood.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Cross Sawmill

robert flynt said:


> Mike, I think you will like live oak, the wood is so dense it will polish nicely. The inner wood has some real unusual looks to it and turns an unusual tan color. If you want to have some fun try to drive a nail through it. The wood is so hard to split the people selling firewood want hardly fool with anything but the limbs. I tried to split some with an ax once, the ax bounced off of it like it didn't have an edge. Tried a wedge and almost didn't get it out of the wood.


 Robert, Thank you for returning to an important aspect of Live Oak. What the wood is like to work with and what useful things can be done with it.


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## robert flynt

We use wooden mallets to straiten red hot knife blades after forging them. Using wood wont put hammer marks in red hot steel and live oak makes a great wooden mallet for this task.


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## Shagee415

Here is a typical Live Oak where I am from. This is not in my yard but is a good representation of what we have in south louisiana. I do have three on some property but they are not as big. A live oak of this size takes about 60 to 80 years to grow.


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## Cross Sawmill

robert flynt said:


> We use wooden mallets to straiten red hot knife blades after forging them. Using wood wont put hammer marks in red hot steel and live oak makes a great wooden mallet for this task.


 Robert, I have a lot of pieces of Live Oak that were left over from the San Salvador ship project. They have been "curing" in the weather for probably two years. They are mostly in the 5'' thick range. I bet we could get some mallet stock out of them. Frank Townsend, one of the shipwrights on the ship said Live Oak made great hammers for caulking. 229-774-2781 home and office 229-726-5561 cell number.


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## Cross Sawmill

Shagee415 said:


> Here is a typical Live Oak where I am from. This is not in my yard but is a good representation of what we have in south louisiana. I do have three on some property but they are not as big. A live oak of this size takes about 60 to 80 years to grow.


 Top of the Morning! I know the "The Live Oak Society" are going to want to "Cuff and Stuff" me for saying this, but the picture you posted is a tree in an unnatural setting. Pre- European, I do not believe there were many,if any cases where Live Oaks were allowed to grow unimpeded. Plus if you start walking around in the "Deep Woods" you are going to see Live Oaks that are a LOT different. I believe the "Deep Wood" Live Oak is the "Normal" growth pattern. aka SuperAX


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## Cross Sawmill

Cross Sawmill said:


> Top of the Morning! I know the "The Live Oak Society" are going to want to "Cuff and Stuff" me for saying this, but the picture you posted is a tree in an unnatural setting. Pre- European, I do not believe there were many,if any cases where Live Oaks were allowed to grow unimpeded. Plus if you start walking around in the "Deep Woods" you are going to see Live Oaks that are a LOT different. I believe the "Deep Wood" Live Oak is the "Normal" growth pattern. aka SuperAX


 Has anyone (besides me) noticed that "All" of the examples of "Normal" Live Oak are planted trees ie Cultivars?


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## Cross Sawmill

robert flynt said:


> We use wooden mallets to straiten red hot knife blades after forging them. Using wood wont put hammer marks in red hot steel and live oak makes a great wooden mallet for this task.


 Robert, Do you know how to make a Live Oak hammer/mallet. I would be very interested to learn how to do it properly. I would also be willing to supply material for someone else to make some on a share basis.


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## robert flynt

No I don't do any wood work except in my knife making. Fred my wood turning friend is the one I would turn to for that. I bet there are plenty of wood turners here that would take you up on a deal like. that.


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## robert flynt

Cross Sawmill said:


> Robert, I have a lot of pieces of Live Oak that were left over from the San Salvador ship project. They have been "curing" in the weather for probably two years. They are mostly in the 5'' thick range. I bet we could get some mallet stock out of them. Frank Townsend, one of the shipwrights on the ship said Live Oak made great hammers for caulking. 229-774-2781 home and office 229-726-5561 cell number.


 Right now I'm so behind on my knifemaking that I can't take on any more project but I really do appreciate the offer.


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## robert flynt

Steve, back in the day the biggest saw mill in the world was on the east pearl river in Pearlington Ms. When I saw that cypress log you were cutting it reminded me of the cypress logs some salvage guys youst to pull up from the river bed where the mill corraled the logs. When I was young I would see them out in the river in a big pontoon boat that had a big wench on it. They would be out there with long pole poking the river bed and when they found something they would hook the winch to it and crank the boat down until the top of the pontoons were level with the water surface. Then they would wait until the pressure sucked the logs out of the mud. Back when those old trees were cut the loggers would go in to the swamp and belt the trees and let them dry standing. Then when the spring floods came they would go back in huge peerows cut the trees and float them out. Of course some of them would sink in the holding pens and that was what the salvage guys were after. I saw one they salvage laying on the bank that was taller than a pickup truck parked beside it.


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## NYWoodturner

robert flynt said:


> We use wooden mallets to straiten red hot knife blades after forging them. Using wood wont put hammer marks in red hot steel and live oak makes a great wooden mallet for this task.


Thats a hell of a tip Robert! I tried straightening one( Hollow Ground) with a hammer and of course it looked like a bag of nickels when I was done... 
Thanks!


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## robert flynt

NYWoodturner said:


> Thats a hell of a tip Robert! I tried straightening one( Hollow Ground) with a hammer and of course it looked like a bag of nickels when I was done...
> Thanks!


Your welcome Scott. If the blade has been hardened try clamping it to a piece of 1" angle iron as long as the blade with very small C clamps and draw it in your kiln. If that don't work draw it again after putting shims between the angle iron and blade.


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## Cross Sawmill

robert flynt said:


> Right now I'm so behind on my knifemaking that I can't take on any more project but I really do appreciate the offer.


 Does anybody else have ideas on Live Oak hammer/mallets?


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## Cross Sawmill

robert flynt said:


> Steve, back in the day the biggest saw mill in the world was on the east pearl river in Pearlington Ms. When I saw that cypress log you were cutting it reminded me of the cypress logs some salvage guys youst to pull up from the river bed where the mill corraled the logs. When I was young I would see them out in the river in a big pontoon boat that had a big wench on it. They would be out there with long pole poking the river bed and when they found something they would hook the winch to it and crank the boat down until the top of the pontoons were level with the water surface. Then they would wait until the pressure sucked the logs out of the mud. Back when those old trees were cut the loggers would go in to the swamp and belt the trees and let them dry standing. Then when the spring floods came they would go back in huge peerows cut the trees and float them out. Of course some of them would sink in the holding pens and that was what the salvage guys were after. I saw one they salvage laying on the bank that was taller than a pickup truck parked beside it.


 Robert, It is sort of amazing that the densest close grain material sank and now we have the best of the best for a short time. This stuff is non-renewable and when it is gone ,it is gone.


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## Cross Sawmill

NYWoodturner said:


> Thats a hell of a tip Robert! I tried straightening one( Hollow Ground) with a hammer and of course it looked like a bag of nickels when I was done...
> Thanks!


 Do you want to make a few mallets?


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## DKMD

If Scott is not interested, I'd be happy to turn you a mallet, Steve. Of course, who says a mallet has to be turned? I've got a couple of great mallets that Kevin made for me in a mallet swap we did here last year, and I don't think he used a lathe at all.


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## Cross Sawmill

DKMD said:


> If Scott is not interested, I'd be happy to turn you a mallet, Steve. Of course, who says a mallet has to be turned? I've got a couple of great mallets that Kevin made for me in a mallet swap we did here last year, and I don't think he used a lathe at all.


 Check out (google) " Live Oak Caulking Mallets" . The ends are reinforced with rings. But, I would be willing to look at anything.


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## NYWoodturner

Cross Sawmill said:


> Do you want to make a few mallets?



I'd be happy to if it can wait until after Christmas.


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## DKMD

Cross Sawmill said:


> Check out (google) " Live Oak Caulking Mallets" . The ends are reinforced with rings. But, I would be willing to look at anything.



Interesting stuff! I hadn't heard of a caulking mallet prior to today. The retail versions use stainless steel rings, but I wouldn't know where to find a stainless steel ring that size... Aluminum, brass, and copper would probably be easier to source, but I haven't checked. The turning portion shouldn't be too tough at all.

I noticed that many of the mallet heads are slotted(or have holes drilled in them). Apparently, they're called 'tuning slots', and they're created to change the sound the mallet makes when striking the metal. With a lot of guys in a small space banging away, it's apparently important to have a pleasant sound coming from the mallet. I guess not all of the mallets have tuning slots, and I'd likely leave them out since I don't own a scroll saw... I'm not sure how else I'd go about making one.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Scott designs!


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## NYWoodturner

Steve - Keller is an amazing turner. I'd love to see what he comes up with - but I would also welcome the opportunity to give one of these caulking mallets a go. From what little research I have done the rings are made go hardened tool steel. I have found a couple sources for the steel and have the ability to harden them. I could do that for any mallets that Dave turned as well. You would just have to let me know what you wanted in the steel. my guess is that yours will not be display items, the will be users right?


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## Shagee415

Cross Sawmill said:


> Top of the Morning! I know the "The Live Oak Society" are going to want to "Cuff and Stuff" me for saying this, but the picture you posted is a tree in an unnatural setting. Pre- European, I do not believe there were many,if any cases where Live Oaks were allowed to grow unimpeded. Plus if you start walking around in the "Deep Woods" you are going to see Live Oaks that are a LOT different. I believe the "Deep Wood" Live Oak is the "Normal" growth pattern. aka SuperAX


 
Ill take some pics of the ones around home when i get in from offshore. It was a pic off the internet. There is a place at home at some friends house that are much bigger. they have to be 100-200 years old. they are awesome.


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## Cross Sawmill

DKMD said:


> Interesting stuff! I hadn't heard of a caulking mallet prior to today. The retail versions use stainless steel rings, but I wouldn't know where to find a stainless steel ring that size... Aluminum, brass, and copper would probably be easier to source, but I haven't checked. The turning portion shouldn't be too tough at all.
> 
> I noticed that many of the mallet heads are slotted(or have holes drilled in them). Apparently, they're called 'tuning slots', and they're created to change the sound the mallet makes when striking the metal. With a lot of guys in a small space banging away, it's apparently important to have a pleasant sound coming from the mallet. I guess not all of the mallets have tuning slots, and I'd likely leave them out since I don't own a scroll saw... I'm not sure how else I'd go about making one.
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing what Scott designs!


 Could a person buy a section of seamless stainless pipe and make some rings?


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## Cross Sawmill

NYWoodturner said:


> Steve - Keller is an amazing turner. I'd love to see what he comes up with - but I would also welcome the opportunity to give one of these caulking mallets a go. From what little research I have done the rings are made go hardened tool steel. I have found a couple sources for the steel and have the ability to harden them. I could do that for any mallets that Dave turned as well. You would just have to let me know what you wanted in the steel. my guess is that yours will not be display items, the will be users right?


 If we were able to make the Mallets at a price where everyone involved could be paid fairly, I believe there would be at least a moderate production market. The Portland ,Oregon Yacht School contacted me a few years about supplying Live Oak OR finished mallets. I can not remember what sort of alternate reality intervened, but I think it could still happen. I will supply the Live Oak and will try to help on the rings. We could make some and get a handle(pun) on what it takes to do some. Also we would not be limited to only caulking mallets. We could also do blacksmith hammers and potato smashers.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cross Sawmill

DKMD said:


> If Scott is not interested, I'd be happy to turn you a mallet, Steve. Of course, who says a mallet has to be turned? I've got a couple of great mallets that Kevin made for me in a mallet swap we did here last year, and I don't think he used a lathe at all.


 Let's figure out how to "Make it Happen".


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## Cross Sawmill

Shagee415 said:


> Ill take some pics of the ones around home when i get in from offshore. It was a pic off the internet. There is a place at home at some friends house that are much bigger. they have to be 100-200 years old. they are awesome.


10-4 on the awesome , also 10-4 on being planted.


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## Shagee415

Cross Sawmill said:


> 10-4 on the awesome , also 10-4 on being planted.



Yeah they might have been planted. If they did a lot of planting was going on around there. Lol


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## Cross Sawmill

Shagee415 said:


> Yeah they might have been planted. If they did a lot of planting was going on around there. Lol


 Yes, A "Heck of a Lot'' of Live Oak was planted. Do you think they just "came up in rows and spaces" beside streets and driveways to mansions? I have to do farther research but I think Live Oak was the first species to be "Attempted" to commercially grow in the USA. That was in the 1600's to 1700's. They did not produce the "Target" product which was "Ship Parts". The trees just "went crazy" and produced the shape we consider the "Classic" shape which is a form which is only been around for a few hundred years. I have spent hundreds if not thousands of hours researching Live Oak. Many of those hours were "Boots on the ground". But yeah; they ARE planted. aka SuperAX


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## Shagee415

Cross Sawmill said:


> Yes, A "Heck of a Lot'' of Live Oak was planted. Do you think they just "came up in rows and spaces" beside streets and driveways to mansions? I have to do farther research but I think Live Oak was the first species to be "Attempted" to commercially grow in the USA. That was in the 1600's to 1700's. They did not produce the "Target" product which was "Ship Parts". The trees just "went crazy" and produced the shape we consider the "Classic" shape which is a form which is only been around for a few hundred years. I have spent hundreds if not thousands of hours researching Live Oak. Many of those hours were "Boots on the ground". But yeah; they ARE planted. aka SuperAX


Yeah I understand if they are in rows they were planted. But we have quite a few singles all over. Not to say that at one time there were rows where only one stands. I'll get some pics of the huge ones. If u like live oaks you should like these.


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## Cross Sawmill

Shagee415 said:


> Yeah I understand if they are in rows they were planted. But we have quite a few singles all over. Not to say that at one time there were rows where only one stands. I'll get some pics of the huge ones. If u like live oaks you should like these.


 Also Live Oak has become an invasive tree and some of the large trees re-seeded as "Rogues". I like Live Oak and am very impressed with there magnificent growth patterns. But if those "Growth Patterns" are at the "wrong" place they(Live Oak) can be major pests. Send us pictures of these trees and lets figure out how they got there.


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## Cross Sawmill

Shagee415 said:


> Yeah I understand if they are in rows they were planted. But we have quite a few singles all over. Not to say that at one time there were rows where only one stands. I'll get some pics of the huge ones. If u like live oaks you should like these.


 I "Like" Live Oak both as an ornamental and as a possible useful wood product. Are you focusing on the ornamental aspect?


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## Cross Sawmill

Shagee415 said:


> Yeah I understand if they are in rows they were planted. But we have quite a few singles all over. Not to say that at one time there were rows where only one stands. I'll get some pics of the huge ones. If u like live oaks you should like these.


 Are the single trees random or located?


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## DKMD

Cross Sawmill said:


> Could a person buy a section of seamless stainless pipe and make some rings?


I'd imagine bangleguy could give us a lead on something like that... He makes his bangle cores out of stainless, but the size he's using is different from what I've seen for caulking mallets... Seems like 1 3/4" is a popular diameter for the mallet. I also noticed that the rings seem to vary depending on the country of origin... Four rings on the US version but only two on mallets from the UK.


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## Cross Sawmill

You can not make an omelet without breaking some eggs! If you have problems with that concept, Do Not even think about where bacon comes from!


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## Cross Sawmill

DKMD said:


> I'd imagine bangleguy could give us a lead on something like that... He makes his bangle cores out of stainless, but the size he's using is different from what I've seen for caulking mallets... Seems like 1 3/4" is a popular diameter for the mallet. I also noticed that the rings seem to vary depending on the country of origin... Four rings on the US version but only two on mallets from the UK.


 Let's figure out the size we need and I might have a lead on some. Everybody else keep looking!


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## Cross Sawmill

DKMD said:


> I'd imagine bangleguy could give us a lead on something like that... He makes his bangle cores out of stainless, but the size he's using is different from what I've seen for caulking mallets... Seems like 1 3/4" is a popular diameter for the mallet. I also noticed that the rings seem to vary depending on the country of origin... Four rings on the US version but only two on mallets from the UK.


 What is best for the handle? Hickory--Live oak or what?


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## DKMD

Cross Sawmill said:


> What is best for the handle? Hickory--Live oak or what?


I haven't seen much mention of the handle material... I would think either of those would work. 

I spent about an hour on a wooden boat forum reading threads about caulking mallets... Those guys and gals are as fussy about their mallets as I am about my turning tools. Here's what I picked up( not to be confused with actual knowledge):

It seems that live oak and black mesquite are the preferred timbers for the mallet heads because of a combination of specific gravity/weight and resistance to crushing. Wood which is more resistant to crushing makes for a sore wrist and elbow according to what I read. Rosewoods, lignum, and ebonies seem to be utilized on occasion.

The metal rings are slightly tapered according to what I read... This apparently allows the ring to migrate toward the center of the head as the exposed wood is crushed from repeated impacts. Stainless steel, hardened carbon steel, and bronze were the metal options I encountered.

The handles can attach in a number of ways, but I gathered that they were often made with a flare at one end that would hold the head in place but allow for disassembly and storage. Pegged handles and wedged handles were also showed in some of the photos I found.

Diameters seem to vary from 1 1/2 to 1 7/8", and the length of the head seems to run from around 10" up to 16".

I'm sure some of what I gathered above is erroneous, but such is the Internet...


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## NYWoodturner

Cross Sawmill said:


> Could a person buy a section of seamless stainless pipe and make some rings?



Yes - You can buy seamless or welded. The seamless is much pricier. I guess I would be most interested in what the buyer wanted before I went chasing anything. Do they want economy, a specific design, replication of says of old, High impact steel, tool steel. High carbon.... there are a lot of directions we could take off, but I'd rather know the right direction first. Steve if you could help chase those requests down we could start sourcing materials.


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## Mike1950

Doesn't exhaust pipe come in stainless??


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## Shagee415

They 


Cross Sawmill said:


> Are the single trees random or located?


in the middle of fields and have seen some in the woods but might have been old homesteads because they aren't deep in. I live in a farming area rice and beans mostly


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## NYWoodturner

Mike1950 said:


> Doesn't exhaust pipe come in stainless??


LOL - No idea.I was never into exhaust because they weren't made out of wood  but it looks like the wall thickness needs to be 1/8th. I dnt think exhaust pipe would come that thick. Good idea though


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## Cross Sawmill

Shagee415 said:


> They
> 
> in the middle of fields and have seen some in the woods but might have been old homesteads because they aren't deep in. I live in a farming area rice and beans mostly


 On Live Trees,the trees that came up in open fields and these trees likely were naturally seeded still grow with the spreading crowns. What I was trying to say, is not every Live Oak is rare . The harvest and use of the lumber material is always confused with the emotions of people who think (wrongly) that there is some sort of shortage of Live Oak trees. There is difficulty in acquiring Live Oak for commercial use. When I harvested enough Live Oak for the San Salvador Ship Project, I spent as much time trying to share the information that this was a harvest of a very sustainable tree resource as I did cutting them. Nobody is going to cut down all the Live Oak. The trees you are referring to likely have no commercial value and nobody would buy them. Likely nobody would take them for free. I understood this to be about wood usage.


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## Shagee415

Oh ok . Yeah u couldn't get much lumber from these most have short trunks and a pretty good crown. But we have a good bit of live oak around home. I just like looking and trying to figure out the Majestic Live Oak. They are a beautiful tree.


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## Cross Sawmill

Shagee415 said:


> Oh ok . Yeah u couldn't get much lumber from these most have short trunks and a pretty good crown. But we have a good bit of live oak around home. I just like looking and trying to figure out the Majestic Live Oak. They are a beautiful tree.


 They ARE majestic trees, but so are Pines,Cypress and a whole list of other trees. If a person likes to just look at them, that is great (I guess), but I have never had anyone tell me how they avoided Wood Products. Can You?


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## Shagee415

LOL. Yeah u right. I wish burls were common around me. I'm always looking but have not found one yet.


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## Cross Sawmill

NYWoodturner said:


> Yes - You can buy seamless or welded. The seamless is much pricier. I guess I would be most interested in what the buyer wanted before I went chasing anything. Do they want economy, a specific design, replication of says of old, High impact steel, tool steel. High carbon.... there are a lot of directions we could take off, but I'd rather know the right direction first. Steve if you could help chase those requests down we could start sourcing materials.


 On the requests, I told what my limited experience was. I think the last time I was discussing caulking mallets, it reached this stage and fizzled out. But, since it has reached this stage of research, I am going to make a few calls to a couple of my "Boat Guys"and let everyone what they say. It might be too difficult to make a profit off a 150.00 dollar mallet. "Of course we do not know what we are doing, That is why we call it research. Albert Einstein" ---------Trash or Treasure?


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## Cross Sawmill

NYWoodturner said:


> Yes - You can buy seamless or welded. The seamless is much pricier. I guess I would be most interested in what the buyer wanted before I went chasing anything. Do they want economy, a specific design, replication of says of old, High impact steel, tool steel. High carbon.... there are a lot of directions we could take off, but I'd rather know the right direction first. Steve if you could help chase those requests down we could start sourcing materials.


Chicken or Egg? Egg or Chicken? decisions---decisions. How does a person research a market for a product that he or she does know what it takes to make or even if they can make it? Looks like a heck of a lot of work for a couple hundred bucks. I have already put my neck on the chopping block to supply material and ship it for product research. If somebody (or more) wants to try two of them I will supply the Live Oak.


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## NYWoodturner

I'm always up for a challenge, but it probably wont happen until after Christmas. 
I can do prototypes with a wood I have onhand and black pipe.


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## Cross Sawmill

Cross Sawmill said:


> Chicken or Egg? Egg or Chicken? decisions---decisions. How does a person research a market for a product that he or she does know what it takes to make or even if they can make it? Looks like a heck of a lot of work for a couple hundred bucks. I have already put my neck on the chopping block to supply material and ship it for product research. If somebody (or more) wants to try two of them I will supply the Live Oak.


 I don't mind shipping some Live Oak for the trial. We already know what they look like, now we want to see what they hammer like.


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## NYWoodturner

Cross Sawmill said:


> I don't mind shipping some Live Oak for the trial. We already know what they look like, now we want to see what they hammer like.


Ok. Saundra good to me. I'll send you my address.


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## DKMD

NYWoodturner said:


> Ok. Saundra good to me. I'll send you my address.


I game for trying as well... As long as Scott doesn't call me Saundra! I'll figure out something for the rings. I'll send you my address as well, and I'm happy to cover the shipping costs if need be.


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## NYWoodturner

Saundra  Dave I have done some sourcing tonight and think we can come up with some reasonably economical rings. Lets come up with the dimensions needed and I will cut, prep and heat treat the rings and send you some as well. In the research you did, were the rings pinned through the wood? As they would be on a knife handle? I have seen some pictures of old antiques that were pinned, but looked like they might have been repairs. I can anneal them, drill them and heat treat to hardness.


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## rdnkmedic

Dang autocorrect.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Cross Sawmill

NYWoodturner said:


> I'm always up for a challenge, but it probably wont happen until after Christmas.
> I can do prototypes with a wood I have onhand and black pipe.


After Christmas will work for me. We will go ahead and ship some and then you can work it in .

Reactions: Like 1


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## DKMD

NYWoodturner said:


> Saundra  Dave I have done some sourcing tonight and think we can come up with some reasonably economical rings. Lets come up with the dimensions needed and I will cut, prep and heat treat the rings and send you some as well. In the research you did, were the rings pinned through the wood? As they would be on a knife handle? I have seen some pictures of old antiques that were pinned, but looked like they might have been repairs. I can anneal them, drill them and heat treat to hardness.



Most of the rings I saw were not pinned... At least, I didn't see any pins. Most of them seem to be very slightly tapered with the smaller opening being on the handle side of the ring... In other words, they flare slightly outward toward the striking surface of the mallet. From what I gathered, that shape allows the head to expand slightly and the ring to migrate slowly toward the center of the head over time. I wouldn't confuse my foray into caulking mallets as extensive research... I've got a fair bit of digging left to do!

On the rings, I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the pair of rings located close to the handle, and some mallets seems to lack the center rings. For the sake of simplicity, eliminating those rings would be good, but I'm happy either way. Obviously, they'd need to be slightly larger than the outer rings if included in the design.

For the outer pair of rings, I would think something with an ID of 1.5 to 1.75" would be good... I guess it all depends on what the person intends to hit with the mallet. I'll probably just threaten my kids with one...


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## Cross Sawmill

DKMD said:


> Most of the rings I saw were not pinned... At least, I didn't see any pins. Most of them seem to be very slightly tapered with the smaller opening being on the handle side of the ring... In other words, they flare slightly outward toward the striking surface of the mallet. From what I gathered, that shape allows the head to expand slightly and the ring to migrate slowly toward the center of the head over time. I wouldn't confuse my foray into caulking mallets as extensive research... I've got a fair bit of digging left to do!
> 
> On the rings, I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the pair of rings located close to the handle, and some mallets seems to lack the center rings. For the sake of simplicity, eliminating those rings would be good, but I'm happy either way. Obviously, they'd need to be slightly larger than the outer rings if included in the design.
> 
> For the outer pair of rings, I would think something with an ID of 1.5 to 1.75" would be good... I guess it all depends on what the person intends to hit with the mallet. I'll probably just threaten my kids with one...


 Where you mentioned uses of Live Oak mallets, it reminded me about hearing about martial arts weapons. If you want to google that.


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## Kevin

I sold quite a few osage blanks to two different escrima practitioners for their fighting sticks. Not sure how they would like LO as it is nearly 10 lbs/ft3 heavier than osage. Osage being 54 lbs/ft3 and LO being 63lbs/ft3 the sticks might be a bit too heavy to wield, but that's just a guess, I'm just Sharon this info with Saundra and crew.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cross Sawmill

Kevin said:


> I sold quite a few osage blanks to two different escrima practitioners for their fighting sticks. Not sure how they would like LO as it is nearly 10 lbs/ft3 heavier than osage. Osage being 54 lbs/ft3 and LO being 63lbs/ft3 the sticks might be a bit too heavy to wield, but that's just a guess, I'm just Sharon this info with Saundra and crew.


 Saundra, I was looking up martial arts weapons and there is a lot of sites discussing it. Sharon


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## Cross Sawmill

NYWoodturner said:


> Saundra  Dave I have done some sourcing tonight and think we can come up with some reasonably economical rings. Lets come up with the dimensions needed and I will cut, prep and heat treat the rings and send you some as well. In the research you did, were the rings pinned through the wood? As they would be on a knife handle? I have seen some pictures of old antiques that were pinned, but looked like they might have been repairs. I can anneal them, drill them and heat treat to hardness.


 I spoke with a couple of people a lot more "In the Know" about caulking mallets than I am. I still have a few more contacts to renew, but here is what I was told. The slots are for changing the sound to indicate how tight the caulking is as it is driven in. The rings on a "Working" mallet need to be hardened tool steel. One of the guys said he had made quite a few and stainless is too soft. How right or wrong that is, I do not really know. But I am trying to find out.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NYWoodturner

That actually helps. The more info the better, but reading boat builders guild threads through folklore, I didn't understand why the need for a mallet they said "Sounded better". Only the old timers mentioned a mallet that rang better or sounded better. I never understood that until you just clarified.


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