# do cedar fence posts harden with age?



## phinds (Nov 25, 2015)

This sounds nonsensical to me but there is a fellow on another (non-wood) forum contending that he as experienced cedar fence posts getting harder/stronger as they turn gray/silver with age. I cannot imagine what the mechanism for this would be.

Comments?


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## Tony (Nov 25, 2015)

In my experience, it does not. If anything it softens with exposure to water and sun. I use aged cedar in a few things I build, and it seems softer than fresh cedar. Tony


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## phinds (Nov 25, 2015)

Well, that's certainly what I would expect.

He didn't say what KIND of cedar, and I got the impression that he's misinterpreting second hand anecdotal evidence although he says he has experience farming.


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## Tclem (Nov 25, 2015)

I remember an old timer telling me (I asked about his fence post) that they use to use cedar for fence post because they lasted a long time. Kinda surprised me but he said that's all they used


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## Tony (Nov 25, 2015)

I have done a LOT of ranch fencing down here with cedar posts. Same thoughts.


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## Tony (Nov 25, 2015)

Tclem said:


> I remember an old timer telling me (I asked about his fence post) that they use to use cedar for fence post because they lasted a long time. Kinda surprised me but he said that's all they used



They do last a long time. Cedar is extremely bug resistant which helps a lot down here at least.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Tclem (Nov 25, 2015)

Tony said:


> They do last a long time. Cedar is extremely bug resistant which helps a lot down here at least.


Yeah we have it every where. Everybody around here had a cedar bench or table that's 100 years old I have a log I sanded and coated. Need to knock my head in it to test the hardness. Lol Guess they don't rot is maybe why he says they get harder.


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## phinds (Nov 25, 2015)

Tclem said:


> I remember an old timer telling me (I asked about his fence post) that they use to use cedar for fence post because they lasted a long time. Kinda surprised me but he said that's all they used


That's DURABLE, not STRONGER. As Tony said, they are resistant to moisture and bugs. That doesn't say anything at all about their strength. Styrofoam is HIGHLY durable in both of those senses but very weak.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Tclem (Nov 25, 2015)

phinds said:


> That's DURABLE, not STRONGER. As Tony said, they are resistant to moisture and bugs. That doesn't say anything at all about their strength. Styrofoam is HIGHLY durable in both of those senses but very weak.


Good point. Lol


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## barry richardson (Nov 25, 2015)

My dad had some cut cedar (ERC) logs in back of his house for years. I finally took some and cut them up, the wood was very light and very soft, Not hard and strong. Only the sapwood was rotted, heart wood was completely sound.....


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## Tclem (Nov 25, 2015)

Do you think maybe they could have mineralized or something being in the ground and made them seem harder


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## JR Custom Calls (Nov 25, 2015)

Tony said what I was thinking. Similar to green hedge. I've heard the same thing, never really put much thought in it


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## Tony (Nov 25, 2015)

JR Custom Calls said:


> Tony said what I was thinking. Similar to green hedge. I've heard the same thing, never really put much thought in it



As I understand it, other parts of the country use Osage (hedge) much like we use cedar. I've traded for some Osage post with Kazuma78, and that stuff is hard as a rock! Tony

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mike1950 (Nov 25, 2015)

Lots of experience with western red cedar posts- old growth and new growth. Paul I sent you that piece of cedar with all the rings per inch. I cut it down in 73- about a 36" diameter above the swale. I split it into posts. I dug the hole at my mothers -sandy soil and put the post in it. I also cleaned up the mess when the fence fell over in late 08. wood in the ground was gone which is typical here for 25-40 yrs. it rots away. you have the piece that was above the ground. soft as the day I cut it down.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Tclem (Nov 25, 2015)

Mike1950 said:


> Lots of experience with western red cedar posts- old growth and new growth. Paul I sent you that piece of cedar with all the rings per inch. I cut it down in 73- about a 36" diameter above the swale. I split it into posts. I dug the hole at my mothers -sandy soil and put the post in it. I also cleaned up the mess when the fence fell over in late 08. wood in the ground was gone which is typical here for 25-40 yrs. it rots away. you have the piece that was above the ground. soft as the day I cut it down.


Well I guess that answers my question. lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sidecar (Nov 25, 2015)

I believe it's just has a high rot resistance. ..... most farm fence this way is locust or hedge


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## barry richardson (Nov 25, 2015)

Kinda off topic, but in Missouri, hedge was the most common fencing wood. (Now steel post have replaced most of it) I was visiting home some years ago and I noticed this funny looking green wood in my dad's firewood pile. Asked him about it and he said he took out an old fence row, and cut up the post for firewood. This was way before I knew people lusted after green hedge, probably before it became popular for turning. Wish I had it now, It all went up in smoke lol...

Reactions: Like 1 | Sincere 1


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## Mr. Peet (Nov 25, 2015)

Well Barry, better your dad use using "Hedge" than treated post for firewood.

There are about 20 or so cedars used for fence posts in the USA. The juniper ones tend to last a bit longer while white-cedar along with Western Red and those in the_ Cupressus_ genus tend to soften and rot in the ground. The parent material of the soil has influence too. If the posts are green and saturated with water, they can cut easier depending on the kerf of the blade. When the posts dry out, the Jenka rating does go up some, and the cutting resistance can also increase. The water in the wood can act as a lubricant.

So yes, it can happen, but not necessarily with any consistency.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## justallan (Nov 25, 2015)

As for the OP, I'd say that they don't get any stronger and would sure think that as the cell structure breaks down they would get weaker. As for hardness I would think in the case of his posts being sawn on 4 sides when they are green that they would seem to get harder as they dry, less moisture=less give.
I would agree with @Mr. Peet that they will get a bit tougher to saw after drying and would add that after a post has been in the ground and out in the elements that it's going to be full of sand and crap, which may make it even more hard to saw yet.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ironman123 (Nov 25, 2015)

I have seen lots of houses around here built on cedar post peirs. (old houses).


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## norman vandyke (Nov 25, 2015)

Mr. Peet said:


> Well Barry, better your dad use using "Hedge" than treated post for firewood.
> 
> There are about 20 or so cedars used for fence posts in the USA. The juniper ones tend to last a bit longer while white-cedar along with Western Red and those in the_ Cupressus_ genus tend to soften and rot in the ground. The parent material of the soil has influence too. If the posts are green and saturated with water, they can cut easier depending on the kerf of the blade. When the posts dry out, the Jenka rating does go up some, and the cutting resistance can also increase. The water in the wood can act as a lubricant.
> 
> So yes, it can happen, but not necessarily with any consistency.


On the ranch where I grew up, most of the fences had juniper fence posts. Those fences were put up in the late 1800's and stand strong to this day. Some with the original barbed wire but most of that has been replaced, a large portion by myself. They don't increase in hardness though. Just tougher to cut dry.


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## Mike1950 (Nov 25, 2015)

norman vandyke said:


> On the ranch where I grew up, most of the fences had juniper fence posts. Those fences were put up in the late 1800's and stand strong to this day. Some with the original barbed wire but most of that has been replaced, a large portion by myself.



Yes but it has not rained there this century!!!

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## norman vandyke (Nov 25, 2015)

Mike1950 said:


> Yes but it has not rained there this century!!!


That's a fair point. I did run across the odd post in a bog that got its bottom eaten away but that's after over a century of being buried in mud.


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## Mike1950 (Nov 26, 2015)

norman vandyke said:


> That's a fair point. I did run across the odd post in a bog that got its bottom eaten away but that's after over a century of being buried in mud.



Just joking but you are very dry. Juniper is more like eastern cedar- at least in smell and color. western red cedar- is sorta rot resistant but I think it was popular as posts because very straight grained-split well and very light so it was easy to handle and ship. I would guess a western larch post would last longer-be stronger but twice as heavy. When I worked at the mill fir/larch dimensional lumber stayed in the west for construction. Strong and good framing lumber. The white fir-hemlock, fir/hem stamped was light and weak. It got sent east for framing lumber-why? shipping cost.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## norman vandyke (Nov 26, 2015)

Mike1950 said:


> Just joking but you are very dry. Juniper is more like eastern cedar- at least in smell and color. western red cedar- is sorta rot resistant but I think it was popular as posts because very straight grained-split well and very light so it was easy to handle and ship. I would guess a western larch post would last longer-be stronger but twice as heavy. When I worked at the mill fir/larch dimensional lumber stayed in the west for construction. Strong and good framing lumber. The white fir-hemlock, fir/hem stamped was light and weak. It got sent east for framing lumber-why? shipping cost.


I know. Montana has to be the driest place I'm aware of other than a desert. I've noticed the smell of most of our juniper is closer to pine than erc. Depends on the species, of course. I know the low layers like creeping juniper have the pine scent as well as Rocky mountain juniper. I think common juniper is closest to erc.


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## Mike1950 (Nov 26, 2015)

norman vandyke said:


> I know. Montana has to be the driest place I'm aware of other than a desert. I've noticed the smell of most of our juniper is closer to pine than erc. Depends on the species, of course. I know the low layers like creeping juniper have the pine scent as well as Rocky mountain juniper. I think common juniper is closest to erc.



Must be a local variety. I love the smell of Eastern Mont. juniper. At least the stuff I have gotten from near Helena.


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## Kevin (Nov 26, 2015)

Eastern red cedar *is* juniper, not cedar. Haven't read anything in this thread I don't agree with - only thing I can add is that at least down here sometimes a ERC post will rot inexlicapbly all things being equal to the other posts in the row. It's rare but I' s seen it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## norman vandyke (Nov 26, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Eastern red cedar *is* juniper, not cedar. Haven't read anything in this thread I don't agree with - only thing I can add is that at least down here sometimes a ERC post will rot inexlicapbly all things being equal to the other posts in the row. It's rare but I' s seen it.


You are very correct. Any variety of cedar here is called juniper. Many varieties and what generally determines what it's called is what its use becomes. For some reason they continue to call it juniper when it's used to build furniture or things of that nature and it's called cedar when it's used for fence posts. Never understood why.


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## Mike1950 (Nov 26, 2015)

norman vandyke said:


> You are very correct. Any variety of cedar here is called juniper. Many varieties and what generally determines what it's called is what its use becomes. For some reason they continue to call it juniper when it's used to build furniture or things of that nature and it's called cedar when it's used for fence posts. Never understood why.


We do not have juniper here except in yards. Eastern Oregon does. We only have red cedar.


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## Tclem (Nov 26, 2015)

I thought juniper was a planet


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## Kevin (Nov 26, 2015)

Tclem said:


> I thought juniper was a planet



It is. Fifth planet from the Fun mostly full of gas like people from Misssipoilissisi. Right between Bars and Faturn.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Mike1950 (Nov 26, 2015)

Tclem said:


> I thought juniper was a planet


 It was until they sawed it up into lumber........ Don't tell the greenies...

Reactions: Funny 1


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