# controversial subject vaccines



## brown down (Jun 2, 2016)

I will never get the flu shot nor get any vaccines that are not necessary! now I have had this argument with my sister so many times I can't count. She works at a hospital and they push these shots on EVERYONE! She told me when she had her first child and her second that I had to get the flu shot and the whooping cough vaccine or I wouldn't be allowed around her children. My response was thats fine. I told her flat out that there is no way I will put that into my body and I don't think that a new born needs certain vaccines right out of the whom for instance hepatitis C which you can't contract unless you get a blood transfusion or via Sex or dirty needles. There is now a documentary out that is being pushed out of the theaters and has a CDC whistle blower that says the CDC cooked the books! kinda goes to show you how much companies such as big pharma, the military industrial complex and the oil industry really do run this country and its a shame... heres a like to the trailer of the movie about the link to autism and vaccines.

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## Kevin (Jun 2, 2016)

I've been on baord with this for nearly 20 years so has my wife. She is a nurse and they try to force her to get one every year but she refuses. They say if she doesn't, she has to wear a mask during her entire shift. They have never made her actually do it because at least 30 to 35% of the other nurses refused the past few years also. The word has been out a long time. My daughter does not have her kids in public schools nor does she have them injected with poison. 

No mercury or any other toxin going in my system.

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## ripjack13 (Jun 2, 2016)

Jenny McCarthy (mmmm...yummy) Was pushing the same topic a few years ago....she even wrote a book about it. I agree with not getting all that crap. But I already got them when I was a kid. As for the flu shot, screw that....I'd rather get it, and build up my immune system to it. I haven't had the flu in years....maybe the last time I had it was 07-08? But I got a doozie that time...lost 20 lbs and passed out 2xs....haven't had it since...


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## brown down (Jun 2, 2016)

I too have been on board with this for a loooonng time but most people believe what the government tells them and Doctors. Heres another clip of it being addressed to congress but nothing has happened and its a shame!


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## Kevin (Jun 2, 2016)

Correction my daughter is 26 and we refused them when she was born so nearly 3 decades.

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## Mike1950 (Jun 2, 2016)

Have to disagree with this one- most of you are too young to remember- Polio- It was a horrible disease- especially down south- small pox- measles and pregnant women. Those diseases were real so were the effects and deaths. Go to an old cemetery look at how many died- small pox- diptheria - whooping cough measles. 
That said I have never had the flu shot - Now the shingles shot absolutely- Kathie got shingles 10 yrs ago - YIKES it was horrible and it went on for months- when I turned 60 I asked for double shot of mercury and asked for a bit of radium ta boot just in case............ To each his own.....

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## brown down (Jun 2, 2016)

@Mike1950 I am not against all vaccines but to give a child right off the bat vaccines that they don't need for a long time is idiocracy at its best! Why would a child need hepatitis C shot? hell for thousands of years we have been able to fight off the flu and colds but now we need every vaccine these companies can come up with? I get it you need certain ones but to push every single one on them jacked up with mercury is just asinine! and for the CDC to cook the books well they are a government run entity and hell I am not surprised. Big pharma has a huge role in what happens in this country

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## ripjack13 (Jun 2, 2016)

I think the polio,measles, and shingles are good vaccines...but they are seen that they can make money off these vaccines and got greedy. Times have changed. And so has their priorities. Money is what they're after not our well-being.

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## Sprung (Jun 2, 2016)

This is a topic my wife and I have discussed a lot, especially with having little children. While our doctor is pro-vaccine, she's also very happy to work with us in delaying some (a kid doesn't need some of them when a newborn or need to get 3 or 4 at one time) and not doing some others. We have had some very good and fruitful discussions with her and she's learned some things from us. (We also have to keep a close eye because our two boys have dairy and wheat allergies - and some of the vaccines contain dairy or wheat components. This was something our doctor had not been aware of and she has since insured that all doctors and nurses on staff are aware of the presence of allergens in some of the vaccines, with a listing of such where the vaccines are stored.)

Yet, at the same time I am concerned about some vaccines being skipped. Some diseases are appearing to make a come back because some are skipping the vaccines. Yes, being vaccinated carries risks, but sometimes the benefits of being protected from some diseases outweighs the risks.

I am also someone who should not have survived getting meningitis when I got it in high school. There was a meningitis vaccine available, but it had not become very prevalent to give, and it was generally not encouraged until a person was getting ready to go to college, so I had not received a meningitis vaccine. I was expected to die and, by the account of my parents, in six hours I made a turn around that was never expected to happen; when I went unconscious, I wasn't expected to wake up or come out of it, but about 12 hours later I was awake and talking again. It took a decade for my immune system to fully recover and regain full strength. I also received, to some extent, some brain damage and since then I now live with horrible short term memory problems. Having been through this and living with lasting effects, I also know that this is not something I want to risk my sons getting.

Having done research, my wife and I are very aware of the risks of vaccines, but we are also aware of the risks of not getting some of the vaccines. It's a trade off of what risks are you willing to take. While my wife and I both received all the vaccines while we were growing up, we made the decision for our sons to receive some vaccines, but not others. Having lived through something that a vaccine is now readily available for, there are some vaccines that we are willing to accept the risk on, knowing that the other side could be far worse; living with these memory problems is not fun and it has gotten worse as time has gone on, and I'm only 32; I wouldn't wish these problems on anyone...

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## brown down (Jun 2, 2016)

I just can't wrap my tiny fat head around the fact they are using a mercury based preservative in almost every shot out there! I think they need to space these vaccines out a lot more then they are and there are a ton of parents out there "me not being a parent" that believe everything the Docs tell them but I don't think they realize that they get paid per vaccine. When we have a separate court systems solely for the pharma business that right there should bring up a lot of red flags to people. It really is a sad state of affairs when this is affecting our children and seems to be an epidemic. wheres Doc at 
@DKMD


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## Mike1950 (Jun 2, 2016)

do not


brown down said:


> I just can't wrap my tiny fat head around the fact they are using a mercury based preservative in almost every shot out there! I think they need to space these vaccines out a lot more then they are and there are a ton of parents out there "me not being a parent" that believe everything the Docs tell them but I don't think they realize that they get paid per vaccine. When we have a separate court systems solely for the pharma business that right there should bring up a lot of red flags to people. It really is a sad state of affairs when this is affecting our children and seems to be an epidemic. wheres Doc at
> @DKMD



ya ever played with mercury when you were a kid- fun- If you did I bet you got more mercury then you do from shot. I am not a Pharm expert nor am I a chemist. Yes they are in it for the money. And whomever is not please send all their wood now so I can save ya..... Our kids got the shots they needed happy to have them. I got radiation- i would NOT recommend for dessert but damn glad for the science we have. Would not be alive and botherin y'all with out it.......

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## Schroedc (Jun 2, 2016)

Right now we're fighting outbreaks of whoopping cough in our area.

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## JR Custom Calls (Jun 2, 2016)

My kids all had the recommended vaccines. The risks associated with them are far less concerning than the risks associated with not having them IMO.

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## Sprung (Jun 2, 2016)

Well, here's an example of where my memory problems come into play.  My wife and I were talking about this over dinner and she corrected me and my poor memory. We had at one point decided to withhold some of the vaccines. Instead we're now on a delayed schedule as we don't want out kids getting pumped full of multiple ones at a time - we noticed with our first that if he got more than two vaccines at a time he got really out of it and lethargic and didn't eat well for a couple days and doing only one or two at a time allows the kids' bodies to handle it a lot better. By the time they begin school, they will be caught up and on schedule, with the exception of the vaccines they cannot take because they contain ingredients they are allergic to. (Apparently this was a decision we made several months ago, but I have no recollection of the discussion.) One exception - we forego the flu shot. It's still about what risks you're willing to take - risking side effects of being vaccinated or the risk of contracting something you could have been vaccinated for.


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## Kevin (Jun 2, 2016)

Everyone has to do their own research and decide based on that. Sadly, most people do zero research but are making their choices based on trusting others who have also done no research, or who have an agenda to push. Flu kills many many more than did polio in its worst year of 1952, but more kids died of cancer that year than to polio. Damned if you do damned if you don't.

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## DKMD (Jun 2, 2016)

I don't have a strong feeling about vaccines, and my wife and I chose to vaccinate our kids... One of whom was a micro premie who shouldn't have made it. I can understand the reasons that some folks don't get shots, but American medicine(with all its flaws) saved my son's life. Vaccinations are way outside of my field of practice, so I won't pretend to understand any more than anybody else.

I do know that most vaccines are now available without mercury based preservatives, but I'm not clear on the relationship(if any) between mercury/vaccinations/autism. Several species of fish may contain significant amounts of mercury including several freshwater varieties that many of us eat. There's a snake under every rock...

The rate of obesity in the US is far more concerning to me, and I'm pretty sure we know the cause in the majority of cases. I suspect autism rates have increased while obesity rates have increased, but I wouldn't suggest that obesity causes autism.

I generally don't trust government agencies and I don't trust industry sponsored research which doesn't leave a whole lot to go on. The sensationalist media doesn't help the cause, so I'd say 'To each his/her own'.

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## JR Custom Calls (Jun 2, 2016)

DKMD said:


> The rate of obesity in the US is far more concerning to me, and I'm pretty sure we know the cause in the majority of cases. I suspect autism rates have increased while obesity rates have increased, but I wouldn't suggest that obesity causes autism


Are you calling me fat?

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## DKMD (Jun 2, 2016)

JR Custom Calls said:


> Are you calling me fat?



If the foo $hits...

Actually, I prefer husky...

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## Blueglass (Jun 2, 2016)

Sprung mywife had the menengitis vaccine but isalso a survivor. We have delayed or skipped many because we also agree a kid does not need 39 of them or whatever it was shortly after birth. The Hep C was a biggie because my wife had a reaction to the vaccine while working in the medical field. We of coarse are total nut jobs. She became disgusted with the medical field and has become a Traditional Chinese Medicine practitioner. I feel much better using herbs and acupuncture than I did taking the pillow case of drugs the Navy sent me home with after the ship yard accident.

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## Kevin (Jun 2, 2016)

DKMD said:


> The rate of obesity in the US is far more concerning to me



I agree totally. It's the worst health epidemic in our nation's history and is 100% certain to bankrupt the health care industry in our lifetime. And we are all going to suffer for it obese and healthy alike. 

I'm not picking n fat folks. Most of my family are obese and I love them just the same. Obesity in my opinion is less about willpower than it is addiction. Added sugar in processed foods is one of the major drugs of the obese and it's in almost everything that's processed even where you don't think so. Naturally occurring sugar in fruits and veggies has fiber along for the ride which allows the body to deal with it safely without flooding the liver like the processed sugar-laden foods do. 

Education is the main problem with obese people, not so much will power like I used to think. Sure that's part of it, but sugar is far more addicting than cocaine and you don't get a coke addict off of it by telling him to stop. You educate him and give him the tools to beat it then it's on him. Simply telling him to "quit snorting that crap!" never works. Sugar is not the only culprit for obesity but it's at least half the problem or more IMO. 

Yes out grands used sugar but they didn't eat processed foods, got a lot of fiber and greens and they worked their asses off which counteracted and even masked the destructive effects of too much sugar, and it doesn't take much to be too much. Sugar is a toxin. It should not be allowed to be sold to the public IMO, but the sugar lobby is one of the most powerful on the planet. Wonder why they need a lobby if it is safe, when so many doctors and even the UN has tried to get it banned? .

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## JR Custom Calls (Jun 2, 2016)

DKMD said:


> Actually, I prefer husky...



I just have a slow metabolism...

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## DKMD (Jun 2, 2016)

JR Custom Calls said:


> I just have a slow metabolism...



Gravitationally challenged?

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## SENC (Jun 2, 2016)

The vaccine scare is just that, a scare. There is NO known connection to autism and the BS that started that myth has been thoroughly debunked. The whole thing reminds me of the global warming crapola, except instead of costing jobs this fraud is costing lives. 

I don't have any issue with adults choosing not to accept vaccines, but as with all choices that comes with consequences. I do have issue with spreading baseless fear when it puts others at risk.

Flu vaccines save many lives every year, that fact is indisputable. The risks associated with the flu vaccine are tiny and are mostly predictable and avoidable. I am 100% on board with mandatory flu vaccine programs for healthcare workers, with very limited exceptions and personal preference isn't one of them. If you choose to put personal preference ahead of safety for patients (particularly the most compromised) and colleagues (who we really need healthy to take care of patients) then I support your right to that preference at the same time I support the right (obligation) of the organization to protect its patients by denying employment. There are plenty of fields that don't carry the same risks. 

By the same token, I support schools, doctors offices, and other organizations who choose to serve only those who take steps to protect themselves and their neighbors by vaccinating their kids according to appropriate recommendations. Again, people have choices... that have consequences. It does bother me that those consequences include risks to the kids (who aren't making the choices).

None of the above is to say that all vaccines are perfect, or all necessary in all cases and places. I definitely don't think anyone should take any vaccine without researching and understanding why and risks and benefits. Nor is it to say that there aren't cases of greed trumping science. There are problems, some of them really big - but few bigger, in my opinion, than the fraud being perpetrated by the anti-vaccine crowd that is putting many at risk.

I'm sorry to those I offend.

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## justallan (Jun 2, 2016)

JR Custom Calls said:


> I just have a slow metabolism...




AKA.....full of beans.

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## Mike1950 (Jun 2, 2016)

I'm sorry to those I offend.[/QUOTE]

No you are not- according to the Doc @DKMD you are admin and can't help being offensive........... ...........................

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## SENC (Jun 2, 2016)

Mike1950 said:


> I'm sorry to those I offend.



No you are not- according to the Doc @DKMD you are admin and can't help being offensive........... ...........................[/QUOTE]
He might be right, but that doesn't mean I'm not sorry about it!

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## DKMD (Jun 2, 2016)

SENC said:


> No you are not- according to the Doc @DKMD you are admin and can't help being offensive........... ...........................


He might be right, but that doesn't mean I'm not sorry about it![/QUOTE]

He's sorry alright... Sorry sucker!

(I now expect to be sent to anger management and sensitivity training...)

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## Mike1950 (Jun 2, 2016)

SENC said:


> No you are not- according to the Doc @DKMD you are admin and can't help being offensive........... ...........................


He might be right, but that doesn't mean I'm not sorry about it![/QUOTE]

Not trying to start anything-- as he says "where the hell is that stir the pot smiley" under his breath.

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## SENC (Jun 2, 2016)

brown down said:


> I just can't wrap my tiny fat head around the fact they are using a mercury based preservative in almost every shot out there!


Do a little research on this, Jeff, and I think you'll feel better. The "mercury based preservative" you are talking about is thimerosal. I think you'll find that there is no scientific basis for concern about how it is used, and that the hysteria over it in the late 90s was rooted in some rather significant misconceptions that it had the same properties as methylmercury. You'll also find that thimerosal hasn't been used as a preservative in any childhood vaccines in over 15 years (it was removed as a precaution due to the fears until it could be studied further and was never re-used because it became unnecessary), the only exception being multivial flu vaccines. At any rate, study after study has been performed and I'm not aware of any that have linked thimerosal to complications other than injection site redness and swelling.

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## Blueglass (Jun 3, 2016)

It should be mandatory but people should still do their research?

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## Kevin (Jun 3, 2016)

Blueglass said:


> It should be mandatory but people should still do their research?



That the exact contradiction that jumped off the page at me also. It's like Hitler telling the Jews they are going to the showers. 

Okay, that's a little over the top even for picking on Henry.

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## Blueglass (Jun 3, 2016)

Oh that is bad. When I ran a framing crew here the best worker I ever had was very Jewish and proud of it. I am of about 90% German heritage. We would mess around, Me: Jake could you go finish framing the porch, Jake: don't tell me what to do you Nazi, Me: Jake hit the showers! The look of shock on those around us left us in stitches.

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## brown down (Jun 3, 2016)

SENC said:


> Do a little research on this, Jeff, and I think you'll feel better. The "mercury based preservative" you are talking about is thimerosal. I think you'll find that there is no scientific basis for concern about how it is used, and that the hysteria over it in the late 90s was rooted in some rather significant misconceptions that it had the same properties as methylmercury



The reason I brought this up was due to listening to my favorite morning radio show based out of florida. They had one of their friends on the show that is a plastic surgeon, well he is on a lot to answer Mens health questions and this topic was brought up. He has an 8 year old daughter who is just now caught up with all of her vaccines. Now he did state that if you don't get all of your vaccines for your children you have to be responsible and not put them in ( daycare or allow them at public parks and such).. He broke it down in full knuckle dragging cave man style which is what I need lol in order to understand a lot about the medical industry! If a woman isn't allowed to eat certain foods while pregnant like fish because of the high mercury content in them and is an adult why would they allow an infant to be then subjected to high dosages of that same poison injected into them? 

I too feel that obesity is a huge concern in this country and I will admit that I am a few pounds heavier then I normally am but that is due to surgeries I have had but thats neither here nor there. obesity for the most part is a choice! you choose what you put into your body and what not to. we all know that certain things are either good or bad for you and we choose to put them into our systems. An infant doesn't get to choose what it has put into its system! Doctors, parents and the Pharma industry choose that for them and its concerning. I guess at the end of the day I am a vaxxer! you will never hear me say I got a flu shot or any vaccines that I don't feel are necessary. I guess I am lucky and have a killer immune system and rarely I mean rarely get sick. 


on a lighter note hold my beer

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## SENC (Jun 3, 2016)

Blueglass said:


> It should be mandatory but people should still do their research?


I understand your confusion, but reread my post. 

To be clear, I support the right of an organization (business, church, school, etc) to set rules of employment (or participation), particularly when based on a preponderance of evidence that those rules protect/aid their consumers, workforce, and society in general. Similarly, I support individual choice. Individuals can and should do their own research and make their own value judgements and prioritize accordingly (they can also do no research and act arbitrarily if they wish, or anywhere in between). I see harmony, not conflict, in these positions. If Company A makes arriving at 8am mandatory for employment because customers need service at 8am, and Person B believes sleeping until 9am is important to their health, then Person B has every right to choose sleep over going to work for Company A. On the other hand, if they choose to work for Company A they must wake up early enough to arrive at 8. Mandatory only applies to Person B IF they choose to work for Company A.

I generally oppose, on the other hand, the concept of a governmental mandate where individuals have no choice (motorcycle helmets are a good example). I will admit, though, that I struggle when it comes to certain (not all) child vaccinations. When kids are getting exposed to risk of major illness and death because of decisions adults are making on the basis of emotion and Jenny McCarthy vs. widely accepted science, I begin to lean towards putting child protection above parental free choice (similar to requiring child safety seats in cars). The only reason I can't get there is because I don't trust elected officials or bureaucrats and fear giving them power more than I fear societal stupidity.

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## Blueglass (Jun 3, 2016)

I see what you are saying. I do support business doing business they way they see fit. Even in cases that I don't agree with their policies I don't have to support them. When you were saying mandatory I was thinking of things like TX with the HPV vaccine years ago. I don't know if it ever went through but that was crazy. Especially when the developer of the vaccine has since came out and called BS on the company pushing it. I realize that polio, small pox and others have pretty much stopped these diseases here.

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## SENC (Jun 3, 2016)

brown down said:


> If a woman isn't allowed to eat certain foods while pregnant like fish because of the high mercury content in them and is an adult why would they allow an infant to be then subjected to high dosages of that same poison injected into them?


To that specific concern, the good news is twofold;
1 - ethylmercury (what the body makes from thimerosal) and methylmercury (the one in some fish) are now understood to be quite different in their impact - the former is processed and out of the bloodstream much faster than the latter so doesn't have the same cumulative effects (that themselves are still subject to much debate); and
2 - no child vaccines have contained either since at least 2001 (many, like MMR, never contained either to my knowledge) - so his 8 year old daughter has never had the possibility receiving a thimerosal preserved vaccine (with possible exception of a flu vaccine from a multidose vial).

Now if you don't stop wasting good beer, we'll really have a disagreement!!


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## Kevin (Jun 3, 2016)

Everyone is making great points - and my stubborn opinions are not beyond change, so I appreciate your opinions Henry and joking aside I do give them much merit when reevaluating things. I need to read some of the latest white papers etc..

Jeff since you are more open to things than most people, watch Forks Over Knives, Fed Up, PlantPure Nation, and Cowspiracy all available on Netflix. There's some other good ones but these 4 will forever change the way you view food choices and the western diet. I can't imagine anyone watching a single one of those 4 and remain indifferent to their health and the evironment.

Promise you will not be sorry you invested the time.

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## Mike1950 (Jun 3, 2016)

SENC said:


> To that specific concern, the good news is twofold;
> 1 - ethylmercury (what the body makes from thimerosal) and methylmercury (the one in some fish) are now understood to be quite different in their impact - the former is processed and out of the bloodstream much faster than the latter so doesn't have the same cumulative effects (that themselves are still subject to much debate); and
> 2 - no child vaccines have contained either since at least 2001 (many, like MMR, never contained either to my knowledge) - so his 8 year old daughter has never had the possibility receiving a thimerosal preserved vaccine (with possible exception of a flu vaccine from a multidose vial).
> 
> Now if you don't stop wasting good beer, we'll really have a disagreement!!



Boy now you are really a party poop- Not since 2001...... Dern we are going to have to find something else to get hysterical about..... Most are not old enough to remember as I said before the effects of not having access to such preventative measures. I got the measles and the chicken pox. I was miserable- emptied the school and they are nothing like small pox. i guess we cannot know what we do not know.......

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## Blueglass (Jun 3, 2016)

Hey now, chicken pox was a blast! I had to stay home and hang out with my best friend and his little brother. Of coarse you didn't have Legos in your day, ha ha.

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## Kevin (Jun 3, 2016)

I was vaxxed and got it all anyway.

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## brown down (Jun 3, 2016)

Kevin said:


> Jeff since you are more open to things than most people, watch Forks Over Knives, Fed Up, PlantPure Nation, and Cowspiracy all available on Netflix. There's some other good ones but these 4 will forever change the way you view food choices and the western diet. I can't imagine anyone watching a single one of those 4 and remain indifferent to their health and the evironment.



I'll check that out tonight for sure. I know our food in this country is out right poison for the most part thats one reason why I rarely eat red meat outside of venison. thats one reason why I harvest on average 5 deer a year. well that and I am addicted to hunting and fishing.

I too got all the vaccines including the chicken pox and also stayed home with it with mittens on my hands so I wouldn't scratch myself lol 

So @SENC @Mike1950 ok so lets leave the whole mercury based preservative out of this equation. When the CDC has a whistleblower that was on the same study that was released not that long ago about the correlation between vaccines and autism, state that they Burnt files and documents pertaining to that said study that doesn't bring up some red flags at all? You don't think that Big Pharma had anything to do with that studies books being cooked? I believe there are a few vaccines that are necessary but the whole fear mongering that big pharma does just to line their pockets even more is disgusting.

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## Kevin (Jun 3, 2016)

The saying that there's 3 sides to every story - your side, their side, and the truth has always rubbed me the wrong way, because it only applies to some situations certainly not ALL situations so the statement isn't really very useful as a broad brush mantra. Having said that, this is one of those times where it does apply IMO. Both sides of the issue have been guilty of fearmongering.
We know which side is more motivated to intentionally spread disinformation. Just follow the money.

Here's an example of misinformation. I'll use Mike's signature because Mike has thick skin and can take it. Einstein never made that statement, but it's been attributed to him for so long it's considered mainstream fact. No one can produce a shred of evidence that he said it and believe me many historians and Einsteinists have tried. But even thinking about the statement it makes no sense, because there's many mkre ways than two which one can live their life. Einstein would never had made such a statement - it does 't even match his philosophical beliefs. But people are going to belkeve what they want for the most part.

I always want to knkw the truth, but it's more elusive than a g-spot.

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## Blueglass (Jun 3, 2016)

THere is a book called Everything I want to do is Illegal that deals with our present food situation that is very cool as well. It pretty much documents his struggles with the law while trying to bring farming back to the way things used to be done. The part concerning his outdoor slaughterhouse and the lab tests compared to what is the standard now still leaves my jaw on the floor many years later when I think about it.

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## Mike1950 (Jun 3, 2016)

Kevin said:


> The saying that there's 3 sides to every story - your side, their side, and the truth has always rubbed me the wrong way, because it only applies to some situations certainly not ALL situations so the statement isn't really very useful as a broad brush mantra. Having said that, this is one of those times where it does apply IMO. Both sides of the issue have been guilty of fearmongering.
> We know which side is more motivated to intentionally spread disinformation. Just follow the money.
> 
> Here's an example of misinformation. I'll use Mike's signature because Mike has thick skin and can take it. Einstein never made that statement, but it's been attributed to him for so long it's considered mainstream fact. No one can produce a shred of evidence that he said it and believe me many historians and Einsteinists have tried. But even thinking about the statement it makes no sense, because there's many mkre ways than two which one can live their life. Einstein would never had made such a statement - it does 't even match his philosophical beliefs. But people are going to belkeve what they want for the most part.
> ...




What!!!!!!!!!!!! pikin on the  again  and ps- who cares who said it- I would sign it cause in it's own way I think it is true. But no one would believe I wrote it....

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## Mike1950 (Jun 3, 2016)

Blueglass said:


> THere is a book called Everything I want to do is Illegal that deals with our present food situation that is very cool as well. It pretty much documents his struggles with the law while trying to bring farming back to the way things used to be done. The part concerning his outdoor slaughterhouse and the lab tests compared to what is the standard now still leaves my jaw on the floor many years later when I think about it.



Going back to the old days??/ I used to help gramps pack the Milk cans out to the road everyday. Then they needed to be cleaned again and it was repeated the next day. Virtually no refrigeration/ freezer was about the size of a half gallon of ice cream but that was really not a problem because very small frozen food section. Most stuff was fresh or canned or came out of root cellar. Most everyone had a garden- canned their own stuff. butchered the chickens- own eggs and red meat was usually something unfortunate enough to walk into field. also the pigs- you had to fight the bears for them. I can remember at a very young age going into barn- my job was to shoot straight when gramps turned the light on. At the end of it all we spent the rest of the night butchering 2 pigs- the bear got them and a bear- I shot straight. Sorry but most folks now a days would F....ing starve to death....

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## Blueglass (Jun 3, 2016)

I have taken advantage of learning to can from my dad. Have not canned anything in a few years... I would F-ing starve. Cool story about the bear, dad has been battling raccoons with his chickens a lot lately. I would have to be mighty hungry to eat those. Reminds me of a story an older friend told me. During the depression his dad had 2 doors hinged together with a stick holding one up. He would scatter seed on it and when enough birds were on it yank a string attached to the stick. They would then get the breasts off the small birds to add to the stew.

How is my old man ramble coming along? @Mike1950

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## Mike1950 (Jun 3, 2016)

also the facilities- Gramps and gramma had a wonderful 3 holer. It was a little smelly in the summer and in the winter the frozen seat inspired you to do you biz quickly. cold running water- you had to heat it on the wood stove if you wanted warm. Funny- look back- it was fine- of course it was the norm.... I seriously doubt we can go back- we must find a way to go forward.


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## Mike1950 (Jun 3, 2016)

Blueglass said:


> I have taken advantage of learning to can from my dad. Have not canned anything in a few years... I would F-ing starve. Cool story about the bear, dad has been battling raccoons with his chickens a lot lately. I would have to be mighty hungry to eat those. Reminds me of a story an older friend told me. During the depression his dad had 2 doors hinged together with a stick holding one up. He would scatter seed on it and when enough birds were on it yank a string attached to the stick. They would then get the breasts off the small birds to add to the stew.
> 
> How is my old man ramble coming along? @Mike1950



Sounds like your father grew up in the good life..... Kathie cans- jams. we have a small garden- love fresh lettuce. a few chickens- man are they spoiled. My grandma would be ashamed of me spoilin the chickens.

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## brown down (Jun 3, 2016)

Mike1950 said:


> also the facilities- Gramps and gramma had a wonderful 3 holer



I thought you were talking about golf there for a minute

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## Kevin (Jun 3, 2016)

@brown down my wife informed me I got the titles mixed up. Instead of watching Fed Up, watch Sugar Coated. That's the one you want to see. Fed Up is okay but Sugar Coated is the one to watch along with the other 3 I mentioned. 

Here's the trailer but the full doc is on Netflix too ...

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## brown down (Jun 3, 2016)

I just got done watching plant pure nation and it was incredible!! I actually started to get peed off when they were trying to pass the bill and the gentlemen stood up against it solely for the fact of lobbying for their cattle farmers! I have always said that IMO it should be almost mandatory for people that have the room to grow their own veggies... heck they even make systems that you can grow in your windows nowadays. but after watching this I may have to give it a go on just eating plants for awhile and see how I feel. don't get me wrong tho being a hunter its hard not to eat meat but at the end of the day I believe that eating wild meat over massed grown meat is way healthier. WE have a very large garden and eat veggies regularly but I may just have to try this due to the studies that were done on it and the results they came up with! Thanks for the suggestions man I can't wait to watch the others but I am wiped and my pillow is calling me. goodnight all!

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## Kevin (Jun 3, 2016)

brown down said:


> I just got done watching plant pure nation and it was incredible!! I actually started to get peed off when they were trying to pass the bill and the gentlemen stood up against it solely for the fact of lobbying for their cattle farmers! I have always said that IMO it should be almost mandatory for people that have the room to grow their own veggies... heck they even make systems that you can grow in your windows nowadays. but after watching this I may have to give it a go on just eating plants for awhile and see how I feel. don't get me wrong tho being a hunter its hard not to eat meat but at the end of the day I believe that eating wild meat over massed grown meat is way healthier. WE have a very large garden and eat veggies regularly but I may just have to try this due to the studies that were done on it and the results they came up with! Thanks for the suggestions man I can't wait to watch the others but I am wiped and my pillow is calling me. goodnight all!



I won't give up eating what I kill but I am done supporting the disgusting cattle and pork and poultry industries, and it is unhealthy anyway.

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## SENC (Jun 3, 2016)

Kevin said:


> Everyone is making great points - and my stubborn opinions are not beyond change


And THIS, I think, is the most important thing. We all know only what we know and we're all subject to being wrong. Things change, and we develop new understanding. Science changes, and what was fact yesterday is lunacy tomorrow. None of us need to take ourselves so seriously that we aren't open to changing our opinion when circumstances change. That does NOT mean we aren't convicted, it only means we're intelligent enough to realize we can't know everything. It is what separates us from chimps.

It is also pretty cool that most here have thick enough skin to be challenged but not feel attacked, and I really appreciate that fact (and try to emulate it).

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## SENC (Jun 3, 2016)

brown down said:


> So @SENC @Mike1950 ok so lets leave the whole mercury based preservative out of this equation. When the CDC has a whistleblower that was on the same study that was released not that long ago about the correlation between vaccines and autism, state that they Burnt files and documents pertaining to that said study that doesn't bring up some red flags at all? You don't think that Big Pharma had anything to do with that studies books being cooked? I believe there are a few vaccines that are necessary but the whole fear mongering that big pharma does just to line their pockets even more is disgusting.


I'm basically in your boat and suspect there is a good bit of corruption in government agencies and likely in big pharma (I trust the latter more than the former, but not by much). What I can't do is make the jump from that to finding a correlation between vaccines and autism. There is simply no reputable science to even suggest a causal link. Many studies have been commissioned to look for such a link - some by the government, some by pharma, some by independents - and I'm not aware of a single peer-reviewed replicable study that finds even a likelihood of cause and effect.

To be perfectly clear, there is no science that proves unequivocally that vaccines don't cause autism (it is damn near impossible to prove a negative), so I will always remain open to the possibility that it does. But I'd need to see some evidence, and there just hasn't been any (to my knowledge).

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## brown down (Jun 4, 2016)

Kevin said:


> I won't give up eating what I kill but I am done supporting the disgusting cattle and pork and poultry industries, and it is unhealthy anyway.



I haven't eaten pork outside of bacon in a long time and rarely eat beef. I couldn't agree with you more about how disgusting the meat business is! how they treat the animals from birth to death is just wrong. I get people who don't hunt ask me all the time how I can do that to such a beautiful creature and my response id rather eat meat that isn't mass produced and not jacked full of antibiotics, hormones and steroids. not to mention the animals I eat live a way better and longer life then what they are eating!


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## duncsuss (Jun 4, 2016)

SENC said:


> To be perfectly clear, there is no science that proves unequivocally that vaccines don't cause autism (it is damn near impossible to prove a negative), so I will always remain open to the possibility that it does. But I'd need to see some evidence, and there just hasn't been any (to my knowledge).



I find it ironic that a large number of anti-vaxxers base part of their position on the argument that "big pharma" is only in it for the money, and the government/CDC is corrupt.

Andrew Wakefield, who wrote the paper which started the whole autism/MMR vaccine juggernaut, is alleged to have been taking money from a group of lawyers who were trying to find a case to bring against pharmaceutical companies. (And not small money -- well over a half million dollars.) [Link to source]

The actual argument against Wakefield is that it was terrible science -- a small, cherry-picked sample of children already in a hospital, no control group (let alone double-blind), reliant on parental memory for timing of events.

It reminds me of a story (almost certainly fictitious) about a researcher who visited a gastroenterology unit at a hospital in Mexico. He found a startling correlation between a diet that included chili peppers and stomach ulcers. No doubt he could have made the same argument about fallen arches, thyroid disorders, and blocked arteries ...

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## Kevin (Jun 4, 2016)

SENC said:


> To be perfectly clear, there is no science that proves unequivocally that vaccines don't cause autism (it is damn near impossible to prove a negative), so I will always remain open to the possibility that it does. But I'd need to see some evidence, and there just hasn't been any (to my knowledge).



I agree it's almost impossible to prove a negative. Believers and nonbelievers in there being a god go back and forth about this. I don't get into the debate about whether vaccines cause autism or any other malady because I'm wholly unqualified to argue it either way. I just don't trust most of the vaccines because as I stated based on *my* epxrience of having had them all, and having come down with all the "dot and bump" illnesses anyway, I don't see the point. And it's no secret you are much more trusting of government and it's plethora of concomitant agencies than am I (which isn't a knock on either of us it's just the way it is).

When the various government stat keepers tell me vaccines only contribute to x number of deaths and side effects, in *most* cases I automatically believe it should be doubled or tripled or more. But that's just me. But what do you expect from a Chimp Lunatic?

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## ripjack13 (Jun 4, 2016)

If you really want to be traumatized....look up the "Earthlings" video, narrated by Joaquin Phoenix...
You will never look at mankind the same.....

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## Kevin (Jun 4, 2016)

ripjack13 said:


> If you really want to be traumatized....look up the "Earthlings" video, narrated by Joaquin Phoenix...
> You will never look at mankind the same.....



I saw it before I pulled my head out of the sand and had what I call "yet another level of awakening" recently, but I still think it takes things a bit too far in the sense that we earthlings will never achieve, nor even strive for a Utopia and be at one with earth and animal kingdom. There's always going to be a majority who laugh at the thought that animals should be treated with respect, even if they won't admit it over their cheeseburgers and steaks. I know I used to be one of them. 

But overall the message in the video was clear to me and it reached me even back when I saw it. Maybe it was one of the seeds that allowed me to change to the point where I am today.

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## ripjack13 (Jun 4, 2016)



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## Kevin (Jun 4, 2016)

ripjack13 said:


>

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## ripjack13 (Jun 4, 2016)

Kevin said:


> I saw it before I pulled my head out of the sand and had what I call "yet another level of awakening" recently, but I still think it takes things a bit too far in the sense that we earthlings will never achieve, nor even strive for a Utopia and be at one with earth and animal kingdom. There's always going to be a majority who laugh at the thought that animals should be treated with respect, even if they won't admit it over their cheeseburgers and steaks. I know I used to be one of them.
> 
> But overall the message in the video was clear to me and it reached me even back when I saw it. Maybe it was one of the seeds that allowed me to change to the point where I am today.




I agree....I still need to change a lil more. I love a delicious steak, ribs, pork chop, or even fried chicken...but venison is so much more better...

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## Kevin (Jun 4, 2016)

I still know I love the taste of meat, but I haven't eaten a morsel of it in about 2 weeks now and I can honestly say I don't miss it AT ALL. I haven't felt this good and healthy since my 20s literally. I'm not saying I'll never eat it because it is not, nor will it ever be a "religion" to me but more just a lifestyle. There's going to be ties I will be forced to eat meat when that's all that's available and I won't have a problem with it, but I have adopted a healthier eating lifestyle and my body is loving it. And my bloodwork and fitness level is obvious. 

I won't go into detail about the serious health issues I have been facing last year and this we all know I had some TIA's but I should have been hostipalized for my blood pressurex and I was on 3 different BP meds v and still weren't under control.. There was another more serious issue too I ain't gonna get into it's kind of gross and personal. The short end of it is I am off all my meds now except insulinn and I am close to being off of that I hop while my body still adjusts. 

My bllodwork is all normal and it was a page filled with disistrous number months ago. My BP stays at or below average 100 percent of the time now with zero meds. I am no longer passing blood. The only thing I have changed was to stop eating toxins, get off sugar, get off unhelathy toxic meat and dairy, and get off those damned pharmaceuticals. No one can tell me eating all that junk didn't turn my health around because I have seen this change firsthand almost overnight.

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## rocky1 (Jun 4, 2016)

Blueglass said:


> Hey now, chicken pox was a blast! I had to stay home and hang out with my best friend and his little brother. Of coarse you didn't have Legos in your day, ha ha.




No but they had Lincoln Logs back in them days, and Honest Abe himself hewed them!

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## Kevin (Jun 4, 2016)

Lincoln Logs were my favorite toy when I was in the 3rd grade. Did my class project with them at Fannin Elementary school in Corpus Christi.


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## rocky1 (Jun 4, 2016)

Wife found a set, probably mid-'60s vintage, in storage here at the house awhile back. Appears most, if not all of the set is still in the can, and the can itself is in pretty good shape. Cardboard can back in those days, so that's kinda surprising.

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## SENC (Jun 4, 2016)

Kevin said:


> I still know I love the taste of meat, but I haven't eaten a morsel of it in about 2 weeks now and I can honestly say I don't miss it AT ALL. I haven't felt this good and healthy since my 20s literally. I'm not saying I'll never eat it because it is not, nor will it ever be a "religion" to me but more just a lifestyle. There's going to be ties I will be forced to eat meat when that's all that's available and I won't have a problem with it, but I have adopted a healthier eating lifestyle and my body is loving it. And my bloodwork and fitness level is obvious.
> 
> I won't go into detail about the serious health issues I have been facing last year and this we all know I had some TIA's but I should have been hostipalized for my blood pressurex and I was on 3 different BP meds v and still weren't under control.. There was another more serious issue too I ain't gonna get into it's kind of gross and personal. The short end of it is I am off all my meds now except insulinn and I am close to being off of that I hop while my body still adjusts.
> 
> My bllodwork is all normal and it was a page filled with disistrous number months ago. My BP stays at or below average 100 percent of the time now with zero meds. I am no longer passing blood. The only thing I have changed was to stop eating toxins, get off sugar, get off unhelathy toxic meat and dairy, and get off those damned pharmaceuticals. No one can tell me eating all that junk didn't turn my health around because I have seen this change firsthand almost overnight.


On the downside, it is getting much more difficult to set you off. I'm not sure I want to give up our fun just so you can feel better and live longer.

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## Kevin (Jun 4, 2016)

SENC said:


> On the downside, it is getting much more difficult to set you off. I'm not sure I want to give up our fun just so you can feel better and live longer.



Oh sure go ahead and exaggerate you dickhead!

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## Mike1950 (Jun 4, 2016)

SENC said:


> On the downside, it is getting much more difficult to set you off. I'm not sure I want to give up our fun just so you can feel better and live longer.





Kevin said:


> Oh sure go ahead and exaggerate you dickhead!



Nice to see y'll gettin along so well. I will be gone tomorrow so damkit -get along. ..........................

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## Kevin (Jun 4, 2016)

Mike1950 said:


> Nice to see y'll gettin along so well. I will be gone tomorrow so damkit -get along. ..........................




Henry and I have powwowed and have agreed that you don't have anymore room for more wood. Stay home and clean the dust off your lathe auxiliary workbench.

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## Mike1950 (Jun 5, 2016)

Kevin said:


> Henry and I have powwowed and have agreed that you don't have anymore room for more wood. Stay home and clean the dust off your lathe auxiliary workbench.

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