# The proper way to drop a tree



## DKMD

I had a chance to take down a 'highly valuable' walnut tree a week or so ago, and I have to admit that it's the first tree I've ever dropped. Things went well, and I was able to get quite a few trunk sections sealed and stashed for later turning.

While I was waxing the sections, it occurred to me that I have very little knowledge about the proper way to fell a tree. I know there are a lot of variables to which technique is most appropriate, but I thought it might be interesting to have some of the more experienced tree cutters here weigh in.

What do all you lumberjacks have to say?

Reactions: Great Post 1


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## Kevin

Doc, stop trolling. I'm seeing a disturbing trend here . . . .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## simihacker

Here is a clip you might enjoy
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10203418668661700&id=1661846734


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## DKMD

I almost took a picture of the stump so I could have you critique it


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## JR Custom Calls

I need to find a video that I saw today. Just need to remember where I sawing.


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## DKMD

simihacker said:


> Here is a clip you might enjoy
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10203418668661700&id=1661846734



That link comes up a dead end for me, Bert... Then again, I'm not a facebooker.


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## Kevin

Doc - BS aside you know we are gonna need some pics to help you assess your take-down. Surely you took some? There is no possible way to help critique a specific drop without some pics buddy.


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## DKMD

No pics... It was hot and humid, and I was more interested in finding ice water than documenting my conquest.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kevin

Okay you are forgiven this once. But describe the drop. Was the terrain level? Was the tree leaning? Was it limb heavy to one side or more? Did it have any twist? Were there any outside indications of rot near a limb? What was the wind strength and from what direction? This is especially critical if a "perfect storm" of factors converge to kill you such as a wind which conspires with the other factors mentioned. Did you make an escape plan? Did you have a secondary route? Did you check for widow makers before you felled it? Do you know how to make a basic plunge cut and from which direction to start it and end it considering all the above factors (because they play a vital role in your decision)? Do you know how to avoid a barber chair? Once you have dropped the tree do you know how to properly limb it? This is where many new loggers get hurt or killed. They drop the tree and think they have it made. But when tons of pent-up energy is laying on its side and you walk in like the conquering hero to take that butt log, you can end up in a hosptial or a cemetery. You dropped a tree and now the rest is easy. The fact is, in most situations, limbing is far more dangerous than dropping unless you know how, take your time, are well hydrated, and have the proper safety equipment.

I hope this doesn't sound arrogant or 'ivory-towerish' but logging is not a casual occupation or hobby. I know you're an intelligent guy and I'm sure you considered everything you could based on what you have read and watched. I have dropped literally thousand of trees and I still want to take a professional course to up my game. My point is do not let this first drop give you much confidence. You can kill yourself real easy logging - even in a yard. .

Reactions: Like 1 | Thank You! 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## DKMD

Straight trunk, no twist, no lean. Three way crotch about 12 feet up with two of the three branches basically dead. Oval shaped trunk with no outward signs of decay or major infestation. Level ground and a little head wind.

I cut a notch facing the direction I wanted the tree to drop... About 30-40% of the diameter. I then made the back cut. My buddy happens to have a small tractor, so we used the elevated bucket to encourage the tree to follow the notch.

No one should worry about hurting my feelings... I don't have any! Seriously, I'm throwing this out to see what I can learn. I know every tree is unique, but I'm interested in learning more about the process.


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## Kevin

DKMD said:


> My buddy happens to have a small tractor, so we used the elevated bucket to encourage the tree to follow the notch.



This is a recipe for disaster and death. David, honestly you guys had no business doing this. It's almost as bad as me trying to give you a hip replacement. Let's have an actual phone conversation before you try something like this again. 

Did you ever have to take a physics course in med school? A tractor, even a big one, is no match for a falling tree of any size. A falling tree has tons of weight, tons more with momentum and the elasticity in the rope (which is a LOT no matter the rope) and even if your leverage is just right it can still all go to hell. 

No offense my friend but you two guys are a disaster waiting to happen based on your description.

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 2


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## DKMD

I suspected the tractor was of little help... Pushing 10 feet up on a 40 foot tree doesn't give much mechanical advantage. The whole thing felt a little haphazard to me which is the reason I started this thread. I need to watch someone who knows what they're doing or at least see some photos of the process. My buddy here that runs a tree service is all checked out on climbing and limbing stuff out... They mostly deal with residential trees where dropping them whole is not possible. I'm definitely not into climbing!

I doubt I have very many occasions to take out trees, but I want to know more the next time around.


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## gvwp

Unless the tree was very small you should never use what I call the suicide cut which is cutting a notch and then simply back cutting until the tree falls. Your notch was way too large. 15-20% tops. For large valuable Walnut you want to use the bore cut which cuts away all but the hinge (the part just behind the notch cut) and the trip. A bit difficult to explain what I mean without a video but in a nutshell you bore out the center cutting away any possibility of the center pulling out of the butt log as it falls and greatly reducing the chance of barber chair which is where the tree splits up the trunk in a quick and explosive manner killing the cutter if he is in the wrong spot. There are many factors which determine the width of the hinge. For example lean of the tree, level ground, top weight. Much of what Kevin has already pointed out. Always be sure all vines are completely cut away from the tree you are felling. I've witnessed this go wrong personally. Nearly killed a man cutting a large Poplar by the vines snaking around in the ground and pulling when the tree started to fall. Wrapped around his feet and he nearly didn't get out of it in time. Very scarey incident which I shall never forget. NEVER and I mean NEVER use a tractor to push over a tree. 110% agree with Kevin this is SERIOUS recipe for utter disaster. I've seen a lot of things go wrong when falling a tree and this will get you killed the quickest. If anything at all (and should only be done with experience) use a very long rope or cable to persuade a tree to go a certain direction. Longer than the height of the tree so there is no possibility of it hitting the pulling tractor. Even this is very dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. There are many classes for training tree fellers. You might look up a class if located in your local area or get an experienced feller to give you pointers. Every year many experienced cutters are killed in the woods by the unexpected. ALWAYS expect the unexpected and never take cutting a tree for granted. Its dangerous and will kill you in an instant but when done properly can be completed reasonably safe.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thank You! 1 | Agree 1 | Great Post 2 | Informative 1


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## manbuckwal

gvwp said:


> Unless the tree was very small you should never use what I call the suicide cut which is cutting a notch and then simply back cutting until the tree falls. Your notch was way too large. 15-20% tops. For large valuable Walnut you want to use the bore cut which cuts away all but the hinge (the part just behind the notch cut) and the trip. A bit difficult to explain what I mean without a video but in a nutshell you bore out the center cutting away any possibility of the center pulling out of the butt log as it falls and greatly reducing the chance of barber chair which is where the tree splits up the trunk in a quick and explosive manner killing the cutter if he is in the wrong spot. There are many factors which determine the width of the hinge. For example lean of the tree, level ground, top weight. Much of what Kevin has already pointed out. Always be sure all vines are completely cut away from the tree you are felling. I've witnessed this go wrong personally. Nearly killed a man cutting a large Poplar by the vines snaking around in the ground and pulling when the tree started to fall. Wrapped around his feet and he nearly didn't get out of it in time. Very scarey incident which I shall never forget. NEVER and I mean NEVER use a tractor to push over a tree. 110% agree with Kevin this is SERIOUS recipe for utter disaster. I've seen a lot of things go wrong when falling a tree and this will get you killed the quickest. If anything at all (and should only be done with experience) use a very long rope or cable to persuade a tree to go a certain direction. Longer than the height of the tree so there is no possibility of it hitting the pulling tractor. Even this is very dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. There are many classes for training tree fellers. You might look up a class if located in your local area or get an experienced feller to give you pointers. Every year many experienced cutters are killed in the woods by the unexpected. ALWAYS expect the unexpected and never take cutting a tree for granted. Its dangerous and will kill you in an instant but when done properly can be completed reasonably safe.



Are you talking about a boring back cut ??? Cutting away from the hinge ?


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## PhoenixWoodDesigns

This thread is of great interest to me, as I recently watched a large black cherry tree get felled and wanted to learn more about the process.


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## simihacker

I have grandchildren I need to keep up that's all facebook is for
I'll try again but I get a funny feeling some people are in a bad mood
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10203418668661700&id=1661846734


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## Kevin

gvwp said:


> ....what I mean without a video but in a nutshell you bore out the center cutting away any possibility of the center pulling out of the butt log as it falls and greatly reducing the chance of barber chair which is where the tree splits up the trunk in a quick and explosive manner killing the cutter if he is in the wrong spot.



This is very well described. But it is so hard to convince amateurs that this explosive power even exists. I can tell you have had some close calls. Thanks for contributing.


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## JR Custom Calls

Husqvarna has a YouTube channel with some pretty detailed instructional felling videos. Not sure how it compares to what a seasoned logger might train someone on, but I've enjoyed watching them and soaking in information. Also watched a few on bore cutting, which seems to be preferred on leaning or damaged trees. When I get to my computer tomorrow I'll look for that cool vid I saw on Facebook today


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## manbuckwal

Tight fit .

Reactions: Like 4


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## DKMD

Plunge cut, huh?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mike1950

Kevin said:


> This is a recipe for disaster and death. David, honestly you guys had no business doing this. It's almost as bad as me trying to give you a hip replacement. Let's have an actual phone conversation before you try something like this again.
> 
> Did you ever have to take a physics course in med school? A tractor, even a big one, is no match for a falling tree of any size. A falling tree has tons of weight, tons more with momentum and the elasticity in the rope (which is a LOT no matter the rope) and even if your leverage is just right it can still all go to hell.
> 
> No offense my friend but you two guys are a disaster waiting to happen based on your description.




I have to agree with Kevin on this one- growing up in logging country- I knew/know many men that did surgery on themselfs with a chainsaw. had a step gramps that lost the use of arm due to falling branch- lucky it did not hit his head.
As far as the tractor- 86or 7 My boss- an arrogant SOB took both his sons out with company 1 ton hooked a long cable about 20' up and to the hitch on one ton. Norm started cutting tree and when it started going the wrong way he hollered hit it- his son did to no avail -truck burning rubber in the dirt it drug it backwards to the edge of the hill.Luckily no one was hurt. Norm drove out there but he made his son drive back- the seat and his pants were very wet!!! He never lived it down. BE careful.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## gvwp

manbuckwal said:


> Are you talking about a boring back cut ??? Cutting away from the hinge ?



No. After the first notch cut is made come back 1-3" (depending on tree size, lean, top weight, etc.) from the deepest part of the notch cut with the chainsaw bar flat and level. Use the tip of the blade to bore directly into the tree using great care not to cut too close to the hinge or you will trap your blade under the weight of the tree. You want to be as even as possible all the way through to the other side of the tree keeping 1-3" of hinge attached. Then bore backwards towards the backside. This cuts away all the center of the tree. Again depending on size of the tree, lean, and top weight you want to cut all the way to the back side of the tree leaving whats called a trip cut. This will consist of another 1-3" of wood. Pull the saw out of the tree and then come in from the back side at a slight angle and make the "trip" cut. If all is done properly the tree will snap away from the trip and fall rapidly. All the while being held by the hinge so it goes exactly in the direction you intend. When using this method properly you have much more control over where the tree falls. 

Here is a perfect text book video of the bore cut. Perfect hinge cut. Notice when the tree falls the end of the log is clean with no pull and the tree falls exactly in the direction of the notch cut.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## gvwp

Kevin said:


> This is very well described. But it is so hard to convince amateurs that this explosive power even exists. I can tell you have had some close calls. Thanks for contributing.



Yes its always there. Last summer I was cutting a mid sized Sassafras, which are notorious for barber chair, which was leaning on the side of a hill. I was about half way through the cut and that dude split right up the truck at least twenty feet. Swung wildly in the air before coming down inches behind where I was running for my life. That was one of many close calls. No indication the tree was going to do that but it did and you must always be ready with two routes of escape in case your first preferred route is blocked by sudden changing conditions.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Kevin

Kevin said:


> o hell.





gvwp said:


> Yes its always there. Last summer I was cutting a mid sized Sassafras, which are notorious for barber chair, which was leaning on the side of a hill. I was about half way through the cut and that dude split right up the truck at least twenty feet. Swung wildly in the air before coming down inches behind where I was running for my life. That was one of many close calls. No indication the tree was going to do that but it did and you must always be ready with two routes of escape unless your first preferred route is blocked by sudden changing conditions.



What type of cut were you applying to it? The reason I ask is because a couple of years ago I was about to cut a heavy leaner (ERC -- very brittle also notorious for chairing) and I balked because that inner voice told me the tree was going to explode off of the stump and create a bloody mess with my insides all over the trees next to me -- so I decided to get some advice before proceeding and come back to it another time. While a lot of the guys on arboristsite are young and smart aleck - okay let's just say many can be a PITA just because you are asking an honest question - there are still plenty of mature experienced guys over there so that's where I turned to for advice. It turned into a 9 page thread but you can read the first page and get the info you need. I had never heard of a Coos Bay cut before but that's what I ended up doing and it worked perfectly. If you had used it on that Sass I bet you it wouldn't have chaired on you.

After you read the first page or 2 skip to post number 146 by knothole. He's like me - always willing to learn. Since adding the CB cut to my toolbox I have used it a couple of more times and love it. Actually I used it all day felling one day even though I wasn't felling any extreme leaners just to practice it. Doc @DKMD I hope you will read the first page or 3 also and keep in mind when I posted this request for advice I had already felled many hundreds of this one species and thousands of trees total. We never stop learning . . . .

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/extreme-lean-heavy-on-lean-side-heart-rot.205011/

I am going to go ahead and quote knothole's post #146 here . . .



knothole said:


> Back to the serious side of things..... I'm the schmuck who should not be in this thread but I saw it and here i am. I'll come right out and tell you all that I don't know #### from shineola about felling serious trees and doing tree work in general. I've cut alot of wood over my several years, firewood, and NEVER experienced what this thread is covering until last week. The last two years me and my neighbor have been working in a stand of dead "yellow" (might be honey locust?) locust that is de-barked and almost branchless except for the tops. We both use the notch and cut method depending where you want the tree to go. (hopefully) These trees have always been consistent with regard to excellent quality, solid wood throughout the cut. What I'm trying to say is they were about as "predictable" as I think a tree can be as far as going where you want it too. I found a section of these things with punky and rotten cores and the second one I cut cost me my bar and chain and almost a pair of shorts. I notched the fall too side, went around and started cutting her down. I got about 2/3rd's the way through and the tree went CRACK, twisted to my right and I swear jumped off the stump taking my saw with it. I was already hauling ass, I like three get away routes if I can... Long story short, the tree did fall the right way after this drama but I lost my bar and chain. I believe the CB cut would have helped here. Never knew it existed. This also serves as a note to the "rookies". Admit it or not. I'm a rookie and I've got all my digits. Tons of scars, busted bones etc., and I damn sure don't know everything. Oh, the saw was a craftsman so no great shakes with the loss but she did the job for 10+ years. I'm liking the husky way better. Thanks for reading.
> Scott

Reactions: Informative 2


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## gvwp

I was boring but made my notch cut too heavy on this particular tree. The tree was small by boring standards anyway and I made the notch too large which didn't help either. If you could have seen where this tree was located. Very difficult cut on the side of a steep drop off. Tree was leaning down hill so the pressure was there. I probably should have known better and did know better to not make such a deep notch cut but even experienced cutters make mistakes and I clearly made a mistake that day. I was lucky to walk away from it. A tree standing perfectly straight up and down can be tricky too but this is where wedges come in handy. Its amazing how much a simple plastic wedge can make a tree to go one way or another and Kevin you are right. We never stop learning. I always take any tips I can find.


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## Kevin

If I've ever seen a big sass in the woods I didn't know it. Seen some small ones. Never knew they were prone to split. Next time you cutting one and worried about a barber chair, wrap a hefty logging chain around it a 2 times a couple feet about the cut and hook a link. No need to cinch just wrap tight and hook a link and no way it can chair on you. It might still split but it won't kick out.

Reactions: Great Post 1 | Informative 2 | Useful 1


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## DKMD

I read them all... Thanks. There were actually several good posts among the 9 pages of posturing and pecker measuring.

The T style CB cut seems very similar to the bore cut discussed here earlier... I assume the stem on the T just serves to reduce the volume of the holding wood? I've obviously got more reading to do!


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## gvwp

Yeah those big Sassafras grow up here like those big Cedar grow down there in Texas! I can normally put two hands around the biggest Cedar we find right here in this area. They do get big but they are not real common up this far north.


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## Kevin

Doc I settled on the triangle method over the T simply because it is faster. The only thing that concerns me about it is if a tree *were* to barber chair, the split/s would likely occur obliquely which is where I always am when I release the holding wood. I have never read or heard of this happening but I assume it can even if the chance is only slight. So the T method in my mind is probably safer, you just really need to take care and go slow so as not to overcut. Something I usually do not want to do when I go in and drop 30 or 40 trees in a few hours. I want to be as efficient as possible and the T adds at least 50% or more to the time per tree. 

Probably those west coast loggers can cut 3 T styles to my 1 triangle but they have tens of thousands of trees under their belts and can do it in their sleep.


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## Kevin

Doc thanks for starting this thread you never know you may have even saved someone's life down the road. Again. But saving lives is no big deal for you it's old hat.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Kevin

David (gvwp) correction. It *is* important to cinch the chain as tight as possible. You don't want to allow that much force to even gain a foothold. I just reread the advice and the guy said if they want to go they will go no matter the chain gauge, but of course he is talking about those behemoths on the left coast. A big heavy duty logging chain will probably be able to withstand anything you or I would encounter. Just wanted to clear that up so I don't pass along possibly fatal advice.

Reactions: Like 1


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## daugher12

This is a great topic! Kevin, which of the coos bay cuts did you use? Just curious.


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## Kevin

I use the triangle even though it didn't seem to be the most popular in the thread, it's what works best for me and I am most comfy with. You got to practice with both to find the one you like. I *actually* am more comfortable with the T method but it takes so long for me. If you have ever seen any pics of my FBE patch at least half of the trees are leaners. So I am always conscious of a chair. Normally the lean is not enough to need more than a face cut, plunge, and relase the back strap but the triangle is so fast that's pretty much what I use on any leaner now.


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## DKMD

Kevin said:


> Doc thanks for starting this thread you never know you may have even saved someone's life down the road. Again. But saving lives is no big deal for you it's old hat.


I'm an orthopod... I don't save lives, but I've changed a few. 

The knucklehead I'm trying to save is the one who started this thread!

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Kevin

Don't be modest. No doubt you have saved some lives. Some guy if you hadn't fixed his bones and he would have fell out of a boat reaching for the bait bucket and drowned.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## daugher12

Thanks Kevin.


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## GeauxGameCalls

@Kevin why haven't I seen any pictures of the notorious leprechaun forest?


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## Kevin

GeauxGameCalls said:


> @Kevin why haven't I seen any pictures of the notorious leprechaun forest?



Obviously because you haven't spent enough time looking through older threads. The leprechaun forest is not notorious though -- it is glorious . . . . .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## manbuckwal

gvwp said:


> No. After the first notch cut is made come back 1-3" (depending on tree size, lean, top weight, etc.) from the deepest part of the notch cut with the chainsaw bar flat and level. Use the tip of the blade to bore directly into the tree using great care not to cut too close to the hinge or you will trap your blade under the weight of the tree. You want to be as even as possible all the way through to the other side of the tree keeping 1-3" of hinge attached. Then bore backwards towards the backside. This cuts away all the center of the tree. Again depending on size of the tree, lean, and top weight you want to cut all the way to the back side of the tree leaving whats called a trip cut. This will consist of another 1-3" of wood. Pull the saw out of the tree and then come in from the back side at a slight angle and make the "trip" cut. If all is done properly the tree will snap away from the trip and fall rapidly. All the while being held by the hinge so it goes exactly in the direction you intend. When using this method properly you have much more control over where the tree falls.
> 
> Here is a perfect text book video of the bore cut. Perfect hinge cut. Notice when the tree falls the end of the log is clean with no pull and the tree falls exactly in the direction of the notch cut.



Thanks for confirming that David, I am familiar with and have done both, but wasn't exactly sure which cut you were talking about. Neither are cuts a beginner should try by themselves IMO . I almost ran over my instructor the first time I did a boring back cut escaping the the tree lol . He didn't realize this lil guy could move that fast . Lots of proven techniques out there and as mentioned, lots of "pros" die every year from felling trees . When in doubt, walk away .


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## GeauxGameCalls

Kevin said:


> Obviously because you haven't spent enough time looking through older threads. The leprechaun forest is not notorious though -- it is glorious . . . . .


Time to stay up until 2:00 looking for it, orrrrr you could be kind enough to post the link!


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## Kevin

GeauxGameCalls said:


> Time to stay up until 2:00 looking for it, orrrrr you could be kind enough to post the link!



I have posted many threads concerning the magical forest, so there is no single "the link". But even if there was one single link, do you honestly think I could find it quickly? 

I like cutting trees not looking for threads about them when I'm not out in the thicket.


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## manbuckwal

GeauxGameCalls said:


> Time to stay up until 2:00 looking for it, orrrrr you could be kind enough to post the link!



Here's one I think @Kevin 
http://woodbarter.com/threads/flame-box-elder-reunion.5510/


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## GeauxGameCalls

Kevin said:


> I have posted many threads concerning the magical forest, so there is no single "the link". But even if there was one single link, do you honestly think I could find it quickly?
> 
> I like cutting trees not looking for threads about them when I'm not out in the thicket.


I figured you'd whip up something with your magical leprechaun power.


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## brown down

this is a great thread. I don't have anywhere near the experience some of you have here and learned a ton just by reading. there is a reason why logging is the second most dangerous job in the world! I have never had one act like you guys talk about and never want one. I have two very close friends of mine that have thousands of trees under their belts that I work with every chance I get. I used to make my notch way to deep/ big and would always cut from the opposite side of the notch instead of plunge cutting. once I was shown that I don't think I will go back to the other way unless its a small tree. just so I have the terminology correct is that a T CUT and was the other one a V cut? I will say that PPE is a must and will save your life in the event something goes wrong. I always wear my lid in the woods and like everyone else, I have multiple escape plans

I have witnessed first had at a hospital none the less, of what felling a tree the wrong way can do . I was building an addition onto a hospital and there was a very large oak tree that needed to come down. now mind you I hadn't a clue about dropping a tree at that time and really at the end of the day I still don't. now how this didn't go any worse than what it did I have no idea. they brought an excavator over with a long chain, and hooked it as high up the tree as they could. now the power lines and communication lines for the hospital were only feet away as well as the entrance to the hospital.. the tree guy if you want to call him that, got into a cherry picker and went up about 5 feet and started making his cut. when that tree went it almost rolled back on the guy cutting it, they never took a limb off, the guy in the excavator jerked the tree as it was going towards the road and power lines. when that tree hit the ground, chunks and I mea CHUNKS of wood flew in all directions nearly taking out us construction workers out. lets just say the two idiots were escorted off the job for their own safety!!!!


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## justallan

Great topic and discussion! I grew up in the woods and have worked and learned from some very experienced fallers and loggers and with hundreds and hundreds trees under my belt I'm just smart enough to know that I'm still pretty green at this sport at the ripe old age of 49.
Just some things to ponder on: (this isn't pointed at anyone, it's for all of us everyday)
Every last tree in the world is different. Treat each one accordingly and spend the time to figure it out as best you can then plan on it doing something different, because it very well may.
As educational as the videos are, please remember that they are made by folks with experience and I'd guess on trees that will make a good video to demonstrate different techniques. Your tree WILL act different.
Jeff and Kevin both made points that I agree with 100%.
PPE is a must. Personal Protective Equipment may be hot, uncomfortable and look silly, but it saves more limbs and lives than all other accidents combined so far as I've seen. Good quality headgear can be had for $50.00 brand new and a good set of chaps are actually very useful for more than just saw protection. They are great for going through stickers and briars also. That's cheap insurance right there.
Another big one is folks thinking because the tree is on the ground that all of the danger is gone. I feel that's when it starts to get real dangerous with limbs bent and pinned under that much weight. I sometimes saw everything that is free then flip the tree with a truck and cable before getting the rest, depending on the situation.

Reactions: Like 3


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