# What wood (for you) doesn't live up to the hype?



## DirtFarmer (Dec 1, 2020)

I was thinking about this the other day. Having completed a few flaming box elders (a pen and a bowl), I'm pretty underwhelmed, overall. I've seen pictures of flaming box elders with very sharp definition and deep reds, but most of the ones that have passed my meagre desk have been mostly light, with a blotch of pink here and there.

What are some woods that you've tried that just don't seem to measure up to their reputation?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Karl_TN (Dec 1, 2020)

Box Elder is a very soft Maple, and it can be hard to know when to cut it at the right time before it is too punky. One can get some fabulous looking wood when the timing is right.

Take a look at this BE paddle by Don:

https://woodbarter.com/threads/the-paddle.32362/

Crotch pieces don‘t need much red to look pretty either:

https://woodbarter.com/threads/raised-box-edler-bowl.36133/

Reactions: Like 3 | +Karma 1


----------



## Bob Ireland (Dec 1, 2020)

Cocobolo is a wood that I think is overrated. It can be pretty at times but most of the time, to me, it's just an oily, difficult-to-work-with wood.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Tony (Dec 1, 2020)

Oak is one wood that I don't understand why anyone uses. Not attractive, doesn't work well and stinks IMO.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 5


----------



## DirtFarmer (Dec 1, 2020)

Karl_TN said:


> Box Elder is a very soft Maple, and it can be hard to know when to cut it at the right time before it is too punky. One can get some fabulous looking wood when it’s times right.
> 
> Take a look at this BE paddle by Don:
> 
> ...


Yeah, I've seen some really awesome flaming box elder, but it doesn't seem to be headed my way very often!


----------



## DirtFarmer (Dec 1, 2020)

Bob Ireland said:


> Cocobolo is a wood that I think is overrated. It can be pretty at times but most of the time, to me, it's just an oily, difficult-to-work-with wood.


Yeah, I had thought about bringing that one up. The dark luster of it is okay, I guess, but it's not worth the tradeoff for the stickiness and the breathing problems.


----------



## Eric Rorabaugh (Dec 1, 2020)

Tony said:


> Oak is one wood that I don't understand why anyone uses. Not attractive, doesn't work well and stinks IMO.


Dang and I just sent you a bunch of it!

Reactions: Funny 9


----------



## JR Parks (Dec 9, 2020)

Elm burl is no good and should all be sent to Texas for disposal. 
Non stabilized redwood is mine if I have to pick one.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


----------



## BangleGuy (Dec 9, 2020)

This is a great question, and I imagine we’ll have lots of fun with this one :)

Of all the wood I have purchased and worked, I have not been impressed with Koa, given all the hype about it. Maybe it’s a Hawaii thing, and reminds people of their vacations. I have some Koa blocks in my shed... meh.

Fire away at that one!  Ha!

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 2


----------



## trc65 (Dec 9, 2020)

Hedge Apple, bodark, Osage orange, call it what you want. Cut way too much of it growing up for fence posts and to clear pasture. Hated it then, hate it now. Hard, gums up saws, sticky sap. Might like it better if it kept its color, but don't see the attraction. Except for cutting branches for walking sticks, have no use for it.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


----------



## BangleGuy (Dec 9, 2020)

DirtFarmer said:


> I was thinking about this the other day. Having completed a few flaming box elders (a pen and a bowl), I'm pretty underwhelmed, overall. I've seen pictures of flaming box elders with very sharp definition and deep reds, but most of the ones that have passed my meagre desk have been mostly light, with a blotch of pink here and there.
> 
> What are some woods that you've tried that just don't seem to measure up to their reputation?


FBE is a tough one and I have seen a lot of blotchy wood for sale through the years. It also doesn’t age well. However, when the flame is combined with burl, and maybe some worm holes, the casted wood is top notch!

Wood barter founder Kevin had the best FBE I have ever seen.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 6


----------



## Nature Man (Dec 10, 2020)

Butternut. I've only turned one bowl from this wood, but it was most definitely underwhelming. Chuck


----------



## Gonzalodqa (Dec 10, 2020)

Pink Ivory. Expensive and the pink turns brown really fast

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1


----------



## sprucegum (Dec 10, 2020)

I have to agree with oak. It's not ugly wood I would call it boring. Harder to work than many, stinks, and I get a sliver every time I touch it. A nephew just asked if I could build his wife a oak coffee table for Christmas. Lucky I don't have time this year and I don't have any oak. Maybe if he is still in the market next year I can talk him into cherry.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Mike1950 (Dec 10, 2020)

Tony said:


> Oak is one wood that I don't understand why anyone uses. Not attractive, doesn't work well and stinks IMO.





sprucegum said:


> I have to agree with oak. It's not ugly wood I would call it boring. Harder to work than many, stinks, and I get a sliver every time I touch it. A nephew just asked if I could build his wife a oak coffee table for Christmas. Lucky I don't have time this year and I don't have any oak. Maybe if he is still in the market next year I can talk him into cherry.



One size fits all does not work for me- some of the QS white oak fumed to pop the rays and not all oak is the same- ya gotta find that piece.

I agree on Butternut..

Reactions: Like 4 | EyeCandy! 4 | Agree 2 | Way Cool 1


----------



## FranklinWorkshops (Dec 10, 2020)

I agree with the oak comments as they refer to red oak. However, white oak when quarter-sawn or curly is a beautiful wood that has been used in some of the most iconic furniture - Stickley. The "Arts and Crafts" period in the early 1900s featured this wood.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3 | Great Post 1


----------



## FranklinWorkshops (Dec 10, 2020)

Regardings butternut, it is a soft and stringy wood that easily splinters. However, for wood carvers, it's a wonderful wood and highly prized for wooden utensils. The wood I don't enjoy using is white pine. Lot's of people use it for interior parts of furniture like drawer sides and bottoms, back boards and rails. But poplar is much better in all respects, especially on parts that need to be painted.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Useful 1


----------



## Bill_LFW (Dec 10, 2020)

i have to jump in on the oak, red oak is what gave oak a bad name, in kitchens 70s to 80s it was the most used wood, it mill easy, glue sands and finish easy, the problem was with it being so open grained it suck up the oil and greese from the owners hands after years people wanted them out, so here it is in a nut shell if the cabinet shops would of grained filled the red oak, would it gotten such a bad name, just a thought, and i have to agree quarter sawn white oak stained with medium watco stain is as beautiful as any domestic wood

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Bill_LFW (Dec 10, 2020)

BangleGuy said:


> This is a great question, and I imagine we’ll have lots of fun with this one :)
> 
> Of all the wood I have purchased and worked, I have not been impressed with Koa, given all the hype about it. Maybe it’s a Hawaii thing, and reminds people of their vacations. I have some Koa blocks in my shed... meh.
> 
> Fire away at that one!  Ha!


koa, to a point i have to agree, it it rare nope, you get on ebay and type in curly lumber its comes up almost first every time, its outrageous on cost, you can get tasmanian blackwood for 1/3 to 1/2 the cost and its just as pretty

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Ray D (Dec 10, 2020)

I kind of agree with the oak thing but I’ve made some really nice pieces with curly red oak. I guess it all depends on what your making with the butternut lumber. For a soundboard on my scratch box calls, I’ve yet to find a better wood than butternut. That goes for solid body box calls as well. Just my experience.

Reactions: Like 1 | Useful 1


----------



## BangleGuy (Dec 10, 2020)

Gonzalodqa said:


> Pink Ivory. Expensive and the pink turns brown really fast


I agree, and have also had trouble with it checking well after the wood blank was super oven dried and the blank was resin cast. Kinda strange really.

Reactions: Useful 1


----------



## Bill_LFW (Dec 10, 2020)

Padauk turns brown days after turning it, i'll never forget when i started turning pens in the 90's i turned a Padauk taper pen and pencil set, 2 days later there where brown.

Reactions: Like 1 | Sincere 1 | Useful 1


----------



## FranklinWorkshops (Dec 10, 2020)

Bill_LFW said:


> Padauk turns brown days after turning it, i'll never forget when i started turning pens in the 90's i turned a Padauk taper pen and pencil set, 2 days later there where brown.


There are finishes made with UV inhibitors and they will help delay the color change in padauk and box elder.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## sprucegum (Dec 10, 2020)

FranklinWorkshops said:


> Regardings butternut, it is a soft and stringy wood that easily splinters. However, for wood carvers, it's a wonderful wood and highly prized for wooden utensils. The wood I don't enjoy using is white pine. Lot's of people use it for interior parts of furniture like drawer sides and bottoms, back boards and rails. But poplar is much better in all respects, especially on parts that need to be painted.


We use a lot of White pine in the north east because it's so readily available. Your right though it has many faults. The old Fairbanks Morse scale foundry a few miles from me used to use thousands of feet of it to build wooden creates from. They owned 1500 acers of wood land and a sawmill.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Gonzalodqa (Dec 10, 2020)

For preserving padauk color you could use shellack. The alcohol extracts the color and the shellac seal it on the surface

Reactions: Useful 2


----------



## ebill (Dec 10, 2020)

- Kentucky coffee tree. Nice looking pc of wood that I turned into a bowl. While it turned and sanded easily, when it was done it was just meh. Nothing special and doubt that I will turn any more. It was just plain bland .... YMMV 

- ebill

Reactions: Like 1 | Useful 1


----------



## BangleGuy (Dec 13, 2020)

DirtFarmer said:


> I was thinking about this the other day. Having completed a few flaming box elders (a pen and a bowl), I'm pretty underwhelmed, overall. I've seen pictures of flaming box elders with very sharp definition and deep reds, but most of the ones that have passed my meagre desk have been mostly light, with a blotch of pink here and there.
> 
> What are some woods that you've tried that just don't seem to measure up to their reputation?


I have been thinking about this thread and pulled some of my best flame box elder burl blanks and turned the OD. This stuff is gorgeous. From what I’ve seen, FBE burl is usually filled with borers and it would be hard to get any quantity of flat stock that didn’t need resin casting. Still. It’s fantastic for small projects.

Reactions: EyeCandy! 5


----------



## Mike Hill (Dec 18, 2020)

Dunno, kinda like oak. But pretty much agree on the others, especially FBE - just not a big fan usually - although those paddles that Don did do tend to make me waiver. One wood, that is rather unusual, and not mentioned yet is magnolia. Never seen anything made of it that doesn't look like mud.

Reactions: Useful 1


----------



## Barb (Jan 1, 2021)

For me it's Russian Olive. I thought with it being a type of "Olive" wood, it would be gorgeous but it's bleh and stinks to high heaven.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | +Karma 1 | Useful 1


----------



## JerseyHighlander (Jan 2, 2021)

This is a dilema for me. The single most abundant tree in the surrounding woods here is one of the several common Oaks. While I don't enjoy the open grain in certain/many uses, it's strength is nearly unmatched in many structural uses. I despise it as a flooring material as the ring porous grain is just a nuisance and makes me wonder "what were they thinking"?. But you'd be hard pressed to surpass any of the White Oaks for both rot resistance and durability & strength. I use it for tool handles when I can't get Hickory and it's priceless for parts of canoes & kayaks where a piece must be thin/light but strong. As mentioned above, quartersawn White Oak is renown in certain furniture styles. 
I don't know if I can come up with an answer to the OP's question in that I don't think I can fault the wood, but more the users expectations and failure to use the right wood for the task.

Reactions: Agree 1 | +Karma 1


----------



## Byron Barker (Jan 2, 2021)

Black Walnut. Absolutely ridiculously priced most of the time and totally not worth it unless you need it for its good mechanical properties.


----------



## Bean_counter (Jan 2, 2021)

Byron Barker said:


> Black Walnut. Absolutely ridiculously priced most of the time and totally not worth it unless you need it for its good mechanical properties.


Heresy!!! Haha

Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## Byron Barker (Jan 3, 2021)

Bean_counter said:


> Heresy!!! Haha


Yeah, I might get the excommunicado and end up unable to log in anymore ;-)

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Ray D (Jan 3, 2021)

I’ve been watching this thread for a while and at the risk of being run out of this forum I’m going to say “exotics”. Before you banish me I’m going to explain my reasoning. Lol. When I first got into woodworking, in my high school years, I was introduced to common American hardwoods...maple, cherry and oaks. As I got older and money was not such an issue I dove into the world of exotics. After playing with exotics for ten or so years I have found myself drawn back to our American hardwoods. I’ll use a scrap or two of exotics here or there but I’m much more interested in crafting things with the great variety of new to me local hardwoods. I guess I’ve come full circle. Lol

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## T. Ben (Jan 3, 2021)

Maybe i haven't worked with enough different woods yet, or heard or listened to any hype about any that i have worked with, but so far i haven't been disappointed yet.


----------



## Arn213 (Jan 16, 2021)

Snakewood is a beautiful patterned wood- that is about it. It doesn’t have chatoyance, it is very expensive, brittle and once finish work is never immune to it’s fragile habit of checking or cracking (if it hasn’t already while you are working at it). Buying logs is a costly gamble as it has a lot of surprises inside because of the pith and your net amount to yield dimensional blanks is very, very little.........so fragile that after you process those blanks, one way or another along the line as it dries, as it seasons, as you work on it or finished a product out of it- a hairline will form. They should really call this “crack wood”. 

One lucky piece I have that is about 12 years old and has not checked is an acoustic fretboard (it went through stages of slotting and radiusing)- why I have not continued through the process? Taking the 10 year rule of letting it seasoned and I am afraid what will happen as it goes through routing of inlays/inlay installation and fretwire installation. Pressure and heat is part of it weakness- humidity too. Plus taking a big chance putting it in an instrument knowing the large possibility of what will happen and the pain to take it off the neck once glued up.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Informative 1


----------



## Arn213 (Jan 16, 2021)

Gonzalodqa said:


> Pink Ivory. Expensive and the pink turns brown really fast



I don’t know what finish you use that the color changes substantially. I use about 60:40 of shellac and denatured alcohol mix with great success. The color stays pink or reddish pink- always looks new and fresh. It looks more vibrant color wise with this mix.

I would never ever kiln dry this and only air dry it if you want to retain the true color vibrancy- the color will become subdued and lose it’s chatoyance if you kiln or bake it.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Arn213 (Jan 16, 2021)

Oak can be boring, but in the right application and preferred cut will bring out its outer qualities. I prefer quarter sawn white oak that is quarter sawn and true rift sawn cut- it brings out the medullary rays/ray flakes. It is also becomes more dramatic when you use a deep stain like a dark walnut or a medium chestnut with quarter sawn or rift material.
I also preferred these on period rooms and furniture- “Arts and Crafts” and “Revival Styles” (prominent on woodwork on church doors, columns, wall treatment, railings and woodwork paneling).

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## Ed D. (Jan 16, 2021)

THE most Godawful wood to work with IMHO is Port Orford Cedar...stinks to high heaven.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## Arn213 (Jan 16, 2021)

^it can’t be worse smelling than “dung” smelling zebrawood..........I should process some of that before the in-laws arrive for a visit.

Reactions: Funny 3 | +Karma 1


----------



## Steve Smith (Jan 16, 2021)

Barb said:


> For me it's Russian Olive. I thought with it being a type of "Olive" wood, it would be gorgeous but it's bleh and stinks to high heaven.


You bring back a memory of when I bought Bethlehem Olivewood. So disappointed in it. It was high MC and shrank very unevenly and had almost no coloration to it. Ended up just giving it all away.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Gonzalodqa (Jan 18, 2021)

Arn213 said:


> I don’t know what finish you use that the color changes substantially. I use about 60:40 of shellac and denatured alcohol mix with great success. The color stays pink or reddish pink- always looks new and fresh. It looks more vibrant color wise with this mix.
> 
> I would never ever kiln dry this and only air dry it if you want to retain the true color vibrancy- the color will become subdued and lose it’s chatoyance if you kiln or bake it.


Pink ivory turns brown in a couple of years. there is really nothing you can do to change that. 
To be honest that applies to every wood (padauk, osage orange, purpleheart,...) probably the best bang for the buck color-wise is purpleheart.


----------



## Arn213 (Jan 18, 2021)

Gonzalodqa said:


> Pink ivory turns brown in a couple of years. there is really nothing you can do to change that.
> To be honest that applies to every wood (padauk, osage orange, purpleheart,...) probably the best bang for the buck color-wise is purpleheart.






Gonzalodqa said:


> Pink ivory turns brown in a couple of years. there is really nothing you can do to change that.
> To be honest that applies to every wood (padauk, osage orange, purpleheart,...) probably the best bang for the buck color-wise is purpleheart.



I have read of instances that it will turn brown. I don’t know what finishes that they use and the color of pink ivory (yes, from my own stock and experience there is a “red pink ivory”, which is like a vibrant ripe watermelon color and then there is what I called the dreaded, dull and lifeless color of “light salmon”) that they utilize. My personal experience and I have figured stock that are 3-4” thick for guitar sets that are over a decade old. I seal all this wood with the mix I just posted. I also only procur the ripe watermelon version. I haven’t tried any UV inhibitors to see if they will work. I am good with the denatured alcohol and shellac proportion.

There is a big guitar company that have used pink ivory on their custom builds- the cost is in the 5 digit range. They use nitro finish on the ones I know off- they have a special formula.

Anyhow, this photo is not mine and just wanted to help “clarify” visually what I discussed about the 2 different heartwood colors of African Pink Ivory:

Reactions: Like 1 | EyeCandy! 1


----------



## Gonzalodqa (Jan 18, 2021)

That look beautiful but it is exactly what I mean they are not really pink anymore. You start and get excited to see a rich pink wood but then it will turn into that brownish shade.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Arn213 (Jan 18, 2021)

Gonzalodqa said:


> That look beautiful but it is exactly what I mean they are not really pink anymore. You start and get excited to see a rich pink wood but then it will turn into that brownish shade.


No- I don’t exactly know what you mean. There is no brown cast or tint from what I can see. We also don’t know what lighting and setting they used that can affect the natural color for this photo session. Pink and red is hard to photograph to capture their true essence of color. I don’t know what to tell you from this point as you clearly made up your mind and you are going to believe what you believe. I will stick at my side of the lane in what works for me and you do whatever works for you.

You need to know what nitro finish does to a finish guitar- over time it will yellow and affect the actual based hue. Traditionalist vintage guitar players typically prefer this as it gives a warmer glow and has that aged factor. Some don’t like that effect so they use a poly or urethane base to keep the color as new as possible.

If you are familiar with Joseph Albers “study of colors”, it will give you a better idea of color mix when colors intersect and its effects. When you mix pink and yellow = orange-brown.


----------



## Gonzalodqa (Jan 18, 2021)

I mean that Over time the bright pink color in pink ivory turns brownish. I have a sample of unfinished and shellac finished pink ivory and both have turned brownish. 
that was my point and from all the information I can gather is a common occurrence. I have work extensively with tropical hardwoods and i can say that is a problem that occur with most tropical colored woods.

I am sorry if it looks like I have set my mind but I have not seen a any piece of pink ivory retain it’s color

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Don Ratcliff (Jan 18, 2021)

Kevin was the only one that I know of that got the best FBE and outside of his hunny hole everything else I have gotten thru the years including burl has been pink st best. Even that paddle with 6 coats of uv resistant finish has faded a bit. Although the back is still bright red.

For you who think koa is over rated feel free to return it to the kingdom of Hawaii c/o Don Ratcliff


----------



## Arn213 (Jan 18, 2021)

Gonzalodqa said:


> I mean that Over time the bright pink color in pink ivory turns brownish. I have a sample of unfinished and shellac finished pink ivory and both have turned brownish.
> that was my point and from all the information I can gather is a common occurrence. I have work extensively with tropical hardwoods and i can say that is a problem that occur with most tropical colored woods.
> 
> I am sorry if it looks like I have set my mind but I have not seen a any piece of pink ivory retain it’s color



You have 2 samples and you treated one with shellac- is that a good enough trial to come up with a definite conclusion? Use other finishes on your samples and give those a chance to see what might occur. Like I said, I have had good results with mine (some are 10 years old) using shellac and *denatured alcohol *mixture. I am sticking with that formula and you definitely will not change my mind as those ingredient combo works for me.


----------



## Gonzalodqa (Jan 20, 2021)

Arn213 said:


> You have 2 samples and you treated one with shellac- is that a good enough trial to come up with a definite conclusion? Use other finishes on your samples and give those a chance to see what might occur. Like I said, I have had good results with mine (some are 10 years old) using shellac and *denatured alcohol *mixture. I am sticking with that formula and you definitely will not change my mind as those ingredient combo works for me.


I never said my two samples have any scientific weight. I have seen many other finished pink ivory projects (do not know what finishes were used on them) and they all have faded to brown. My goal was never to change your mind I was just giving my opinion on the subject like it was asked from the OP.
Cheers


----------



## Mr. Peet (Jan 20, 2021)

I only have 2 samples, both coated with clear paste wax and stored in a file cabinet. The sample from Robacker was from a bolt he got in the 1950s. I made my sample nearly 20 years ago from a cut off of that log. The salmon colored sample from Eric, I assume was harvested in the last 20 years. I have little history on it other than it was from him. These are both _Berchemia zeyheri _(formally _Rhamnus z_.). Keep in mind, there is another 'Berchemia' species of similar size, _Berchemia discolo_r, Brown ivory, that has wood more brown with red hues. I do not have any, but hope to some day,,,,,

Taken under incandescent light. Picture has heavy orange overtones. Back drop is black details on dark green.



Taken under fluorescent light, too much glare.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Gonzalodqa (Jan 20, 2021)

They look really cool. I would like to take a picture of mine but I would have to go through some hundreds of wood samples and I have a bit of work pulling up


----------



## Mr. Peet (Jan 20, 2021)

Gonzalodqa said:


> They look really cool. I would like to take a picture of mine but I would have to go through some hundreds of wood samples and I have a bit of work pulling up



Thus my reason for a filing cabinet...


----------



## Arn213 (Jan 20, 2021)

Gonzalodqa said:


> Pink ivory turns brown in a couple of years. there is really nothing you can do to change that.






Gonzalodqa said:


> That look beautiful but it is exactly what I mean they are not really pink anymore. You start and get excited to see a rich pink wood but then it will turn into that brownish shade.






Gonzalodqa said:


> I mean that Over time the bright pink color in pink ivory turns brownish. I have a sample of unfinished and shellac finished pink ivory and both have turned brownish.
> that was my point and from all the information I can gather is a common occurrence.






Gonzalodqa said:


> I never said my two samples have any scientific weight. I have seen many other finished pink ivory projects (do not know what finishes were used on them) and they all have faded to brown. My goal was never to change your mind I was just giving my opinion on the subject like it was asked from the OP.
> Cheers



You made some bold statements here that it turns brownish over time, common occurrence” and you actually contradict yourself in the last quote (first sentence in which you back track). If you refer to something with “sure conviction” and like it universally applies to every ones pink ivory experience, then the “onus is on you” to back up what you say is true. Site the source and show us some pictures- better yet show us your samples. 

I also gave you my opinion (per your last quoted sentence above/last paragraph) and experience that I have had success with the formula mix that I have with pink ivory- you were the one pushing the issue.


----------



## Arn213 (Jan 20, 2021)

@Mr. Peet - from what I can see in his 2 samples, I don’t see any browning. Surface treatment of “wax” dully noted and it has been stored in a file cabinet.

I have had great luck with my stash of pink ivory when it was in raw lumber form, covered in paraffin wax and when the finish formula applied- the color stayed true and has never turned brown. Some of this stock goes back “air dried” to 20 plus years old and I have several that are 3 years old. Here is a photo of 2 pink ivory blanks- these are over 20 plus years old, it is in a room with 4 windows (eastern exposure- hard direct sunlight during the morning) on the top shelf in which is expose to natural light. No browning whatsoever and applied shellac/denatured alcohol combo.






I have had a recent email conversation with a luthier friend of mine on the east coast and he is a big fan of pink ivory as I was curious about his experience with this species. He made several builds and has a good amount of stash of it from plain to figured, salmon to red heartwood. He has these guitars still in hand and he notes “no browning”. The electric guitar he has finished the fretboard on one with “bore oil” which is used in woodwind instruments, the control knobs in wax. The pickup rings and miscellaneous where sprayed in lacquer. He said this guitar does not sit in the case and hangs in the wall on a wall bracket. The acoustic guitar he has with pink ivory back and sides was sprayed with lacquer. This acoustic he said sits out in the winter months and has no browning issue effect. He goes to say he has no browning issues on his pink ivory stock- raw, waxed or shellac applied in the surface.


----------



## Arn213 (Jan 20, 2021)

To keep things fair, there are noted negatives per my observation and experience with PI as air dried material. I have a heavily piece of figured flame pink ivory (sap and heartwood combo) that has a very unusual color compare to most of my stock. It has a mild “peach pink” (hint of light orange) heartwood and you can see the yellowish sapwood. Denatured alcohol/shellac mixture. See below:





^There is a faint guitar outline halve on this one face and I will need to monitor it carefully to see if it will become more stable. Otherwise this billet will be bound for smaller pieces.

I have observe some downside on pink ivory. Cracks and checks will show up as it seasons. Figured material is prone to movement- non figured is more stable. Spindle blanks in the 2” square up to 36” lengths- a couple of quartered material has developed a slight bow (20 plus years of seasoning) and figured prone to slight twist.

Slabs near the pith will have a good amount of cracks and checking- it will run as it dries slowly and as it seasons. This is based on 13” to 17” wide slabs.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Gonzalodqa (Jan 21, 2021)

I apologize if it sounded like I was pushing the subject. However, in my personal experience (not only my samples but other crafts and projects) the wood loses its pink color and it turns brown. I have spoken with other woodworkers and they share the same opinion. 
I couldn't find the unfinished sample but this is the shellac finished sample (It was finished 5-6 years ago if I am not mistaken). It was difficult to ake a picture because of the reflection but you can barely see some pink in the knot and it does have a pinkish hue but if I didn't know and someone asked what color the wood is I would say brown.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Mr. Peet (Jan 21, 2021)

Gonzalodqa said:


> I apologize if it sounded like I was pushing the subject. However, in my personal experience (not only my samples but other crafts and projects) the wood loses its pink color and it turns brown. I have spoken with other woodworkers and they share the same opinion.
> I couldn't find the unfinished sample but this is the shellac finished sample (It was finished 5-6 years ago if I am not mistaken). It was difficult to ake a picture because of the reflection but you can barely see some pink in the knot and it does have a pinkish hue but if I didn't know and someone asked what color the wood is I would say brown.
> 
> View attachment 200748



I would say that was brown. I would also question your supplier. 

Up until 1990, the only Pink ivory wood on the market was of great quality for color (mostly pink, darker pink and a few hues of red), not always so for condition (cracks twist and so forth). After the apartheid fall out, the market was flooded, the trees lost the Zulu protection they had by commoners stealing the trees for economic gain. The market flooded, prices plunged and quality fell. The salmon colored wood started to show (younger trees) and so did the closely related 'Brown ivory'. 

I wonder how accurate your species ID is.?.

Reactions: Great Post 1


----------



## Gonzalodqa (Jan 21, 2021)

Thanks Peet,
I got my samples from a wood supply in Germany, I have contrast the characteristic to known pink ivory and they match. Saying that I don’t know how close are the anatomical characteristics of brown ivory to PI


----------



## Arn213 (Jan 21, 2021)

@Gonzalodqa per your post #54, I have not seen pink ivory that looks like that or turn that way. I wish you had an extra one to test and had a planer or jointer- the fresh shavings will reveal its true color (post turned color). Should be solid reddish pink or salmon pink. Having said all of that, there is a remote possibility that one weird pink ivory colored (peach-pink w/ hints of light orange) figured billet I posted on post #55 could be similar to your sample- mine is a “tint” and yours is a “darker shade”. 

@Mr. Peet that was a great post. Could you post a photo of the “brown” ivory if you have a sample of that?

@Mr.Peet and @Gonzalodqa- since you both collect samples of the same size, can you weigh it with a digital scale? I gather data for my own reference on the woods I have for weight/density- for air dried, 12 percent moisture content, 5 pounds and 12 ounces is the median weight per board foot for pink ivory (bn. Berchemia zeyheri). I am curious about the weight on the samples and were it falls.

FYI- here is a link below on the “brown ivory”. The scientific name listed is berchemia discolor. Under “Timber” it gives a description of color. https://www.dalmannuk.com/brown-ivory

This link of brown ivory for sale as reference (read color description): https://www.charnwood.net/products/product/brown-ivory-bowl-blank-8-x-3/category_pathway-373

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## Gonzalodqa (Jan 21, 2021)

Definitely the sample was not this brown when I got it. I remember it was pink but I cannot say how pink (it has been many years already) 

Size 15,2x7,4x1,3 cm 
Weight 144 g
I add a cross section picture (my phone camera is not the best)

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## Mr. Peet (Jan 21, 2021)

@Arn213 

I do not have any 'Brown ivory' in my collection but hope to some day. My South African supplier was white so had to give everything he had up to the new political powers a few years ago. Sad story with many twist.

I do not have a digital scale. 
The Robacker sample is 2&7/8ths wide by 1/2" thick by 5 & 15/16ths long, 6.1 ounces
Meier sample is 2 & 15/16ths wide by 7/16ths thick by 6" long, 5.0 ounces

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## Ed D. (Jan 21, 2021)

Gonzalodqa said:


> Definitely the sample was not this brown when I got it. I remember it was pink but I cannot say how pink (it has been many years already)
> 
> Size 15,2x7,4x1,3 cm
> Weight 144 g
> ...


Guess I'm having better luck...this Pink Ivory top was turned today. The wood has been sitting in my basement shop since 2014.

Reactions: EyeCandy! 2 | Way Cool 1


----------



## Arn213 (Jan 21, 2021)

^I just saw that on the other thread- it’s beautiful and the photo of the top underside you posted really shows the PI rich color and the detail of the tight grain where the winter ring is nice and crisp. What finish did you use?

I like to see other members to come forward to see their experience with raw and finished pink ivory- whether it stays true to its color or whether it browns.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## Ed D. (Jan 21, 2021)

Arn213 said:


> ^I just saw that on the other thread- it’s beautiful and the photo of the top underside you posted really shows the PI rich color and the detail of the tight grain where the winter ring is nice and crisp. What finish did you use?
> 
> I like to see other members to come forward to see their experience with raw and finished pink ivory- whether it stays true to its color or whether it browns.


Thanks...it was sanded to 600, followed by a simple Beall buff and Renaissance wax

Reactions: Like 1 | Thank You! 1 | EyeCandy! 1


----------



## Gonzalodqa (Jan 21, 2021)

That looks amazing.
I might try to secure another sample of pink ivory and maybe follow it through the years to see how it evolves

Reactions: Thank You! 1


----------



## Arn213 (Jan 22, 2021)

It seems like “brown ivory” seems to be only available in Europe from what I can find. I wanted to add this as follow up to my post #54 about my luthier friend Chris guitars. I took a snapshot of the video he sent me and gave me some history. I had a conversation with him about whether he has experienced “browning” in Pink Ivory- he has confirmed to me “no” to all instances in finished guitar form, milled, sets, waxed stock and shellac stock. This guitar is 4-5 years old, finished in nitrocellulose lacquer. It has pink ivory back and sides. This he said in the winter months has been out of the case for 3 months- gathering so it gets humidified so it doesn’t get dehydrated. I am very thankful for his time and I appreciate his efforts.





Just a note that the interior of the backs is unfinished- there is advantage and disadvantage to that which is controversial issue with the luthiers. The photo is a snapshot of a video, that is why it is blurry- I only wanted to show you that the pink color is retained. Like I said this is unfinished and usually if it wanted to turn brown, it would have by now.





Here is a different one about the same age, not in the case and hanging in a wall.
You can see the pink ivory binding retains its color and has “no browning effect” over the walnut neck- nitrocellulose lacquer finish.






@Gonzalodqa - I am not trying to throw you under the bus. I just want to get some concrete answers with some type of validity with time history and photo proof from other source of your (so as others) claim of the “browning” effect. You hear a lot of comment on line, but seldom you will see visual proof. I am planning to use the pink ivory slabs I have in the future for guitars and I want to know what to expect and how to finish it so it keeps its natural color- I am sure members here will post the same questions on how Pink Ivory should be finished and hopefully this thread could help future queries. It definitely is not the end all, but something is better than nothing.

Reactions: EyeCandy! 1


----------



## Gonzalodqa (Jan 22, 2021)

No problem at all this forum is to discuss this kind of topics.
Maybe my experience and other wood workers here in Europe come from actually working with brown ivory that is mistakenly labeled as pink ivory. 
I might need to send my samples to a university lab or NEHOSOC to identify it (not sure if they offer that service though) 
Because I have heard the same comment from other fellow wood workers in Germany.


----------



## Bean_counter (Jan 22, 2021)

Geez after reading these last 2 pages I think I HATE pink ivory haha

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


----------

