# Hollowing Options for Hollow Forms



## PhoenixWoodDesigns

I do a lot of bowl turning, spindle turning, pen turning, etc... But I haven't yet ventured into hollow forms. One of the biggest things keeping me from doing so, is the confusion over all the hollowing tool options, which range from simple hand held tools all the way through massive articulated arm or captive systems.

I'm looking at doing a wide array of hollow forms, from shallow to 12" - 14" deep (eventually -- starting small, for sure.) That being said, I'd rather get the tool purchase right the first time. 

I've been looking at the Monster articulated or captive hollowing systems, however, I'm open to suggestions. How do ya'll hollow your hollow forms?


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## NYWoodturner

Michael - I do not own one of those systems you are referring to. I would like to some day when I get into bigger pieces (Larger that 12 to 14" deep) but they are not necessary on anything smaller. I use Robert Sorby swan neck tools, EZ-Wood tools, Woodtick Tools for 90% of all of my hollow forms. I do have a wood-cut Hollow Master and a Munroe hollower that I use on occasion. I would suggest you use the hand tools and make sure its something you fall in love with before making that investment on a big rig.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## PhoenixWoodDesigns

NYWoodturner said:


> I use Robert Sorby swan neck tools, EZ-Wood tools, Woodtick Tools for 90% of all of my hollow forms. I do have a wood-cut Hollow Master and a Munroe hollower that I use on occasion. I would suggest you use the hand tools and make sure its something you fall in love with before making that investment on a big rig.



I looked at the EZ-Wood tools hollowers, and though the system looks effective, it looks like you can't go any bigger than 6" diameter by 3" deep on even their "full sized" tools. A set of the EZ-wood tools runs $407. I'm not sure of what the size limitations would be on the Sorby and Woodtick tools, but if similarly constrained, is a lot of money for such restricted sizes.

The Monster articulated arm system is $498, and it seems like it can do many different sizes -- I'm not sure yet though, as they are west coast and not open yet to call and ask lol.

This is why I'm so confused though! lol


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## barry richardson

What Scott said. The swan neck type tools are a good start. It was helpful for me to work into it progressively, Starting with "semi-hollow forms" with bigger openings, and decreasing the size of the opening as my skill increased. If you decide you want to get into it in a big way, you may want to spring for a Monster type rig with a laser and all that jazz. I have hollowed pretty big and deep with just straight bars, with articulated cutters on the end, but I must admit, I get beat-up pretty bad....


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## PhoenixWoodDesigns

barry richardson said:


> What Scott said. The swan neck type tools are a good start.



Which swan neck tools do you use, and how big / deep can you hollow with them?


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## Schroedc

I've got some hand held tools, both a swan neck and the EWT hollowing tool, up to 5-6 inches in diameter no problem but for really deep depth I need to invest in a steady of some sort yet... I've also got a D-bar hollowing system someone made back in the 80's that was given to me and I love it but just need to add a laser to it someday. It came with swan neck tools but I upgraded to EWT tool heads on it (Bought the ones without handles and they fit my rig perfectly.


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## NYWoodturner

My largest Sorbys are 38" overall length. The cutter on the left does the lions share of the work on large pieces


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## DKMD

I've got a monster rig(articulating and captured), and it'll do pretty close to the sizes you listed... It gets a little sketchy with the stock bar after about 10" of overhang. They do offer a bigger bar if you want to go deeper.

Most of the folks I know who do really deep forms use some kind of captured rig with big diameter bars. I am told that the Kobra articulating system will go much deeper than the monster, but I've never even seen a Kobra system. JT Turning makes an articulating system called the Gizmo that probably fits between the two... Beefier than the monster but maybe not as beefy as the Kobra.

Hand hollowing is definitely an easy place to start, and I've got a multitude of purchased and homemade tools that I use at times. A good swan neck tool is a must if you're planning to try small openings, and I use the midi version of the Sorby that Scott showed more than anything else.

As Barry suggested, I'd consider starting with smaller forms and large openings before jumping into big pieces through 3/4" holes. Since you can't see the tip of the tool most of the time, there's a feel that comes from practicing on those shorter, larger opening forms.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mike Mills

I really don’t do any hollowing but I have done a couple of “enclosed” forms where the opening is about the same size as the base. Even those were only about 6” deep. I do have a Sorby swan neck that I used near the rim but I am not sure I would try it over 4” deep. 
I use the Sorby multi-tip with the small cutter and only about 1/16 or so of the cutter exposed (1/8” at the most) and it is fairly easy to control up to about 6”. It’s a light cut and almost impossible to get a catch.

I do admire the turners who do the large hollow forms with small openings but from my experience just not something I have a desire to try. I would go crazy(ier) having to pick-out/blow-out the chips all the time.
The general “rule of thumb” is that you need four to five times the amount of tool in back of the rest as you have over the rest to maintain control and comfort. So 5” deep you need 20-25” behind the rest. 

My Sorbys are smaller/shorter than those shown by Scott being about 20" overall so it's a stretch to go 5 -6" deep and maintain control.

You don’t have to go real deep before you, as Barry said…”get beat-up pretty bad”. Can’t say I really felt beat up but it sure wasn’t any fun either.


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## PhoenixWoodDesigns

The choices are so tough, honestly. By the time you get all the handheld tools, you've spent as much as it would cost you to get a hollowing system that can do bowls 9+" deep. Besides the monster rig, I've also recently been looking at the One-Way Laser-Guided Deep Hollowing system. It looks rather similar to the monster, is slightly more expensive, but they *claim* to have a better laser system than any of their competitors.


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## Mike Jones

Captive systems do not facilitate deeper or bigger, but they do make hollowing easier on the body. Consider one of these if you are going to do LOTS of hollowing, if you have bad shoulders or back problems, or have an aversion to physical work. (I am 73 years old, and I plan to buy a "rig" somewhere around age 80)

The depth of cut is primarily limited by the shaft diameter. Larger diameters dampen vibration, chatter, and resulting catches/ rough interiors. If there is a single tool that I would recommend to begin hollowing, it would be the Mega Eliminator. It has a 1" shaft that has been ground to a "V" shape to provide the perfect tool/cutter position
and while that would be very helpful to a beginner, it will never be a hindrance. A hollowing tool like this "straight" tool, will not get you up into the shoulders or into very wide cuts. For these, I like my swan neck from woodtick Greg, which is modeled after the Easy Wood Tools swan neck. I have a Sorby swan-neck (RS 2000) that is a whole kit of shafts, grips, and cutters that is truly a P.O.S., although there are times when it is the only thing in my arsenal that will make the cuts that I want to make.

Typically, hollow forms start with a drilled/bored pilot hole. You will want a Jacobs chuck on a Morse taper to fit your tailstock to get you started. The cuts then, go from middle to rim, enlarging the pilot hole as you go.

Hope something here was helpful!


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## DKMD

I think even if you get a system, you'll probably want some hand tools if you're interested in small openings. At the very least, some kind of swan neck tool to get the area just inside the opening and under the shoulder would be handy.

If you're looking for a rig, you'll need to decide if you're more interested in captured or articulating systems. There are pros and cons to each, but I tend to use my articulating system the majority of the time... It just feels more fluid than the captured setup. I don't do many big forms(>10"), so the articulating rig covers most bases for me. If you think you'll be trying some larger pieces, the captured systems with larger diameter bars are probably better... Certainly better than the monster articulating system.


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## PhoenixWoodDesigns

If you could pick one swan neck tool to cover the broadest range of hollow forms, which tool would it be and why?

For some reason woodcraft doesn't carry any of the normal Sorby swan neck hollowing tools -- they only carry the hollow master and multi tip hollowing tool (the straight one.) (From Sorby). On Sorby's website, it doesn't even show they carry any up to 38" anymore, they just have a 14" one and a 20" OAL one.


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## DKMD

I've got the Sorby midi hollowmaster, and I occasionally want for the larger version like the one Scott showed. I'll be mine is the 14" and Scott's is the 20"... Not including the handle lengths. Again, I don't do really big stuff, so the smaller version suits me fine.


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## Mike Jones

PhoenixWoodDesigns said:


> If you could pick one swan neck tool to cover the broadest range of hollow forms, which tool would it be and why?



Look at the Munro ... http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Mer...Y&Store_Code=packard&Category_Code=tools-munr

This "adjustable system" may give you the broadest range though not truly a swan neck, it's designed to do the same cuts. I think Jamie Donaldson sells one similar to this, but I couldn't find it ....I will if i do.


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## Dennis Ford

I don't think that limiting yourself to one swan neck tool is realistic. I suggest that you get a 1/2" shank John Jordan hollowing tool for starters, but do not expect this tool to do everything. Once you learn to use this tool, you will likely want larger or smaller (probably both) hand held tools and the deeper vessels you mentioned will require *lots* of skill with hand-held or some type of captured system.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mike Jones

http://www.jtturningtools.com/trans-former I have zero experience with this tool/system, but it _LOOKS _very intriguing! I want one!

Reactions: Like 2


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## DKMD

Mike Jones said:


> http://www.jtturningtools.com/trans-former I have zero experience with this tool/system, but it _LOOKS _very intriguing! I want one!


Here's their articulated system: http://www.jtturningtools.com/node/38


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## woodtickgreg

I just found this thread, Now I know why I have had so many inquiries about my hollowing tool. All the advise above is good and I agree with starting small and simple and increasing the size and difficulty as your skills grow. Turning is one of those expensive hobby's that takes time to aquire tools for because of the cost, that's why I started making tools to use for myself. I'm guessing that I can get to about 6 or 7 inches deep with my hollower. The trick as mentioned above is to have a lot of tool behind the rest. I accomplish this with a long and strong handle, 18" or better. My hollower is really better for under the rim of a piece, the hook shape of the end gets you right under it as Scott said. You do not need every tool that ewt says you do, I can hollow a vase with just a straight round tool and the hollower that I make. Long handles and a little muscle are needed for deep stuff and a captured steady rest. Now just so anyone else that reads this thread knows, I do not have any hollowers at this time. I make them on a very limited basis when I can get the materials as scrap from a couple of the shops I go to for work. The only thing I can say if you want one of my tools is to just watch for a new post and jump on it when you see it, they go fast. This is a great thread.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Tim Carter

I use the Jamieson system and have had very good results. It takes a lot of the physical effort out of making hollow forms. I also use the Sorby swan neck tools. The tool I use the most for the neck and shoulder areas of hollow forms is an "H" tool. It's a 3/16" HSS cutter mounted in a 1/2" or 5/8" bar with an outrigger welded to it to prevent twisting. It's easy to use and control but best of all it's cheap to make <$10. Here's what it looks like.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## hobbit-hut

Yeah, This is a great thread and just the one I was eager to find. I have been wanting to gear up to do HF and was just as confused when I started doing the research. I've looked at every rig and tool I can find info. on and watch all the free vid's on YT. I need a steady rest also. I noted the price for each rig and after six months of looking decide the best course of action is to make my own. I also continue to buy the best tools I can find and just ordered my second tool from Wood Tick Tools. I just picked up my fire brick and some steel yesterday. My reasoning is simple I can buy the equipment and materials I need to make the tools for much less than the cost to buy them. If I find I need something for a particular job and can't make it I'll buy it. I like D Way tools also and just ordered my 6th tool from there. By the time you price a sharpening system, steady rest, hollowing rig and whatever else you might decide you need or want your out big bucks. And what if you find you don't like the system you bought ? What I make may not be pretty but it will be functional or I'll keep working on it until it is. I don't plan on trying to sell what I make because I don't have the talent or machines to make the quality tools like Wood Tick or D Way. so I will continue to buy those. But I can hack together some metal for tool rest and things like that.

Reactions: Like 5


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## MikeMD

PhoenixWoodDesigns said:


> I do a lot of bowl turning, spindle turning, pen turning, etc... But I haven't yet ventured into hollow forms. One of the biggest things keeping me from doing so, is the confusion over all the hollowing tool options, which range from simple hand held tools all the way through massive articulated arm or captive systems.
> 
> I'm looking at doing a wide array of hollow forms, from shallow to 12" - 14" deep (eventually -- starting small, for sure.) That being said, I'd rather get the tool purchase right the first time.
> 
> I've been looking at the Monster articulated or captive hollowing systems, however, I'm open to suggestions. How do ya'll hollow your hollow forms?



Michael, I'm a little late to the party, but for what it is worth, I got the Monster articulated arm. I really don't much do HFs. But the reason I got it is for those times when I do what to do them. I'm 6' 1" and 200lbs. I've seen someone with a bit more heft than I hand hollow. He is an accomplished turner and hollower. But I'll say he was dripping with sweat and pretty beat up by the time he was done. To me, that just isn't fun. Yeah, you have to learn how to use the Monster, but if you are going to be doing HFs, it is well worth it. Hope that helps.


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## PhoenixWoodDesigns

I just wanted to give everyone an update on this. I really evaluated all the comments here closely, as well as some independent research I did. I really believe that I should get a feel for using the hand tools before moving to an expensive captive or articulated system.

I ended up ordering the Robert Sorby Arm Brace and hooker, with the side handle. This allows me to hollow with with extra stability over normal hand held tools. I also got the slicer tool with it, which will allow me to do some rudimentary coring. 

All in all, I'm excited to get started on this stuff, and am really looking forward to seeing how well this stuff performs. I do know some turners that own the expensive systems that continue to use the arm brace for many applications, or on smaller forms where they don't want to go through the trouble of setting up the expensive ones. I'm pretty confident that I've made the right choice for me, for now!

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## NYWoodturner

Michael - I think you made some wise choices. I hope you keep us updated. New tools like that most often feel very awkward at the beginning. I haven't used either of those choices and am looking forward to your feedback.


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## hobbit-hut

I second that. Would enjoy seeing a tool review after you get acquainted with them.


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## MikeMD

I, too, am interested in the results. Mainly because, for me, I know that buying what I would consider interim tools (any sort of hand hollower) would just mean that my end tools (Monster) would have just cost me more since I bought both. I opted to go straight to the Monster, but maybe that wasn't necessary.

I liken this to a lathe purchase. Yeah, a PM3520B is an expensive lathe at, let's just say $4000 for argument sake. But if you bought a new 12 NOVA for $800, then sold it for $600 to upgrade to a Jet 1642 for $2500, then sold that for $2000 to get into the PM3520B, instead of the PM3520B costing you $4000, it actually cost you $4000 PLUS the difference of what you bought and sold your other lathes for. End cost of the PM3520B would be $4700.

Anyway, I'm not saying the wrong decision was made here by getting hand held tools. Just interested to see if what was bought will suffice, and if Michael actively continues to hollow with what he decided to get. I honestly hope he does. I'm not wishing he made the wrong decision or wishing ill will.


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## woodintyuuu

it is with Serious trepidation i enter this fray: #1 the cost of your apprenticeship is commesurate to time spent and effort expended. the same can be said for the aquisition of tools. the description of monetary expenses going through lathes is not in fact a cost its a learning curve. Through the progression of tool skills are aquired, and intimidation is lessened. I have witnessed many beginning turners (my students) nationwide who do not use the machine they own ie:oneway or 
PM3520 to anywhere near the machines potential because they: 
Are fearful of hurting themselves or the machine and thereby waste the money spent on it!

#2 I have designed and have sold hollowing equipment from the very begining of the craze. Like 20 yrs My tools are rock solid allow the user to employ his own thoughts and adjustments and employ the finest quality material for the purpose. I have been side to side at symposiums with MR. Jameison and always outsell him 5 to one!
THE reason:as you grow in your ability i let you trade tools (sizes) for the shippping cost alone Tools built by design not only for profit.


#3 THAT BEING SAID I HAVE NEVER TRIED TO SELL MY TOOLS HERE ON THIS SITE! It would seem to me the old addage "you cant be the whore and the madam both" apply . about 8 months ago on this site i saw tools that were a direct ripoff and knockoff of mine only very shabbily made, I had to swallow hard and 
let it go 

#4 I am very careful not to cross the line as to my opinion, Tims initial response of using a combination of tools to do his work is both spot on and applicable thanks tim for that perspective. Its no wonder folks get confused as to what to buy!

#5 Any and I mean any hollowing system has its pluses and minusses . that is a fact. If anyone tells you they are the end all with all the solutions -run like hell!

thanks for letting me rant I just couldnt stand it anymore

Reactions: Thank You! 2 | Agree 2


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## MikeMD

Cliff, I meant no disrespect to your or other hollowing tools. I am speaking from my own personal experience. And, with the lathe reference, I for one, wish I had just spent the money on the larger lathe once I found out I liked turning. Interim lathes, for me, sucked time (and arguably money) from me that could have been spent turning.

Likewise, money spent on tools that were "beginner" tools or "intro" sets could have been avoided had I simply listened to those that advised me against them.

I'm not saying that your tools are beginner or entry level tools by any means. I have no experience with them, so I could not, in good faith, say ANYTHING about them. You are certainly correct that all tools/systems have their pluses and minuses. Heck, while I love my Monster system, the hole that is needed is, in my opinion, fairly large compared to what can be done with many hand held tools. So, if smaller holes are your aim, the Monster may not be for you (not you specifically, but the "in general 'you' ".


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## woodtickgreg

My thoughts, for what they are worth, is that you should try and learn from everything. I have always said it's not the tools that make the craftsman, but the skills of the craftsman. Most folks budgets don't allow them to go out and just buy the biggest baddest tool or machine. Most work their way up as their skills improve. I think most folks start with a used lathe to try out turning and see if they will like it, most move up and change lathes several times. I think the same applies to tools, I started with some pretty crappy tools that came with my used lathe, I didn't know there was a difference in types of steel for turning tools, but I learned that very quickly. There are lots of hollowing tools out there, and they all do different things in my opinion, each tool shines in it's own area. I have made a few hollowers, I use it and like it, I would never say it is the best tool. It's a good tool and has it's pluses and minuses like all tools. I think the same applies to hollowing rigs too. I say try new things and tools, learn from them and your experiences. It's not money wasted if you are learning, I don't think you can really put a price on that. I don't think anyone should buy a brand new full size lathe for 4 grand and up just to see if they like turning. Start small and work your way up, experiment with different tools too. Just because you bought something doesn't mean you are stuck with it, buy something else if it interest you and try it. Just my thoughts learned from my experiences.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## MikeMD

woodtickgreg said:


> I don't think anyone should buy a brand new full size lathe for 4 grand and up just to see if they like turning.



I hope I didn't sound like I was saying that everyone or anyone should buy a $4K lathe as their first. First, you have to find out IF you like turning. If you do, then go bigger/better. I just don't think it is necessary to step into 5 lathes in the interim. That said, I can see the point that some people may have to get comfortable with lathes of varying sizes and not jump straight to a big lathe. I'm not one of those people, so, I suppose I wasn't looking at this from that perspective.

I don't know that hollowing tools follow that same "curve", though. You certainly don't need to learn to hand hollow before using a jig. Though, I can see why many would prefer hand hollowing over a jig. Personally, I think the curve goes the opposite direction with this subject. Hollowing with a jig (like the Monster) is a LOT easier than by hand. Your tool is always level (once set up properly). But that comes at a price...a BIG price (the kind that hits your wallet).

My analogy of lathes to hollowing tools was strictly a financial one, not a learning curve one.

Sorry I made the position that the OP should go straight to a jig. Learning by hand is not only plausible, but admirable.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Anthony

I dunno how that heart got there. My bad


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