# Sunlight aging



## chatometry

I'm asking you a wild guess: how long would it take to get this "aging" effect on maple?





And what about even getting to "gray" on cherry?





Can this process be accelerated or carried out artificially?

Paolo

Reactions: Way Cool 1 | Creative 1


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## Gonzalodqa

I don't know about the maple but getting the grey aging of wood takes quite some time. I think I have seen that it can be achieved using steel wool and vinegar but I don't know how effective it is


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## 2feathers Creative Making

There are ways, one of which (steel wool and vinegar, just mentioned) works mainly on wood containing tannins.
Also available , is ammonia treatment. There are many hundreds of sites with information on this phenomenon. Some of which even have a little truth. 
There are also several research papers on this, which I would trust a bit more.


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## Mr. Peet

Baking the maple can achieve that coloring in a few hours. As for the cherry, looks weathered, not aged.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## phinds

Mr. Peet said:


> Baking the maple can achieve that coloring in a few hours. As for the cherry, looks weathered, not aged.






and I don't think any amount of UV will get maple that dark unless it starts off almost that dark (red maple for example). I have a light-colored maple dining room table that has been exposed to considerable indirect UV for over 30 years and it's not a whole lot darker than it was when it started out (somewhat like your light-colored piece). Certainly nowhere near the dark color you're showing.


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## chatometry

Those two pieces are from the same board. You make me think that it's not sunlight exposure, but some sort of finish used by the seller to highlight the chatoyance.
I will need to check other boards...


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## Arn213

You have to specify the species of maple because western big leaf is creamier and color. You can expose that to natural sunlight and it will get yellowish in color with direct sunlight. What you have I think is not big leaf variety as it is too white in color. Appears to be silver maple.

I have boards turn that color, but it took years to get it to developed that “violin amber” color and patina (let me see if I can locate it).

Mark and Paul is correct you can get that color hue on maple with the baked/roasted/torrefication treatment- but that particularly maple will not have that “freshness” if that sample piece was treated that way. Baked/roasted/torrefied maple will have the tendency to look “dry” and “dull” compare to air dried or kiln dried maple.

You mentioned that he used a finish? A shellac amber will get you that tint or an amber guitar finish (vintage clear) it is a typical clear tinted finish (yellow) applied so the maple doesn’t look sterile and looks aged/yellowed.

Here is a sample below (not mine) to show you the tinted versus clear on maple:


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## phinds

chatometry said:


> Those two pieces are from the same board. You make me think that it's not sunlight exposure, but some sort of finish used by the seller to highlight the chatoyance.
> I will need to check other boards...


This area suggests that the dark color is only on the surface


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## chatometry

The pieces are from the same board, just from two different sides. So definitely the color is only on the surface.

I don't know the species, but I would think it is acer pseudoplatanus or acer campestre based on what I commonly see here.

This is a veneer leftover board from a veneer company. These are usually low value and almost thrown away by the company. So it is very unlikely that this is a finished surface, also because it is the "bad" side of the board, with the veneer machine clamping marks. I can't exclude it, though.

I will have to look at other boards from the same company...


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## Mike1950

Arn213 said:


> You have to specify the species of maple because western big leaf is creamier and color. You can expose that to natural sunlight and it will get yellowish in color with direct sunlight. What you have I think is not big leaf variety as it is too white in color. Appears to be silver maple.
> 
> I have boards turn that color, but it took years to get it to developed that “violin amber” color and patina (let me see if I can locate it).
> 
> Mark and Paul is correct you can get that color hue on maple with the baked/roasted/torrefication treatment- but that particularly maple will not have that “freshness” if that sample piece was treated that way. Baked/roasted/torrefied maple will have the tendency to look “dry” and “dull” compare to air dried or kiln dried maple.
> 
> You mentioned that he used a finish? A shellac amber will get you that tint or an amber guitar finish (vintage clear) it is a typical clear tinted finish (yellow) applied so the maple doesn’t look sterile and looks aged/yellowed.
> 
> Here is a sample below (not mine) to show you the tinted versus clear on maple:
> 
> View attachment 218221


Big leaf can be lots of colors.

Reactions: EyeCandy! 3


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## Arn213

Mike1950 said:


> Big leaf can be lots of colors.
> 
> View attachment 218243
> 
> View attachment 218244


You are correct Mike- I wasn’t referring to burls but the typical sapwood western bigleaf in non figured types (plain sawn) and the ones with flame figuring. My favorite bigleaf are the spalted ones in flame and burl form- well non figured as well as I like the “fall color” patches.

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## Mike1950

Arn213 said:


> You are correct Mike- I wasn’t referring to burls but the typical sapwood western bigleaf in non figured types (plain sawn) and the ones with flame figuring. My favorite bigleaf are the spalted ones in flame and burl form- well non figured as well as I like the “fall color” patches.


nah- that is just what the GEEtar guys like- the white stuff so they can dye it purple. Big leaf-non burl can be as red as cherry.


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## Arn213

Mike1950 said:


> nah- that is just what the GEEtar guys like- the white stuff so they can dye it purple. Big leaf-non burl can be as red as cherry.


Yeah, majority of builders do (the purist) but not me. I tend to like color on mine as well because I like the warmer tones and the natural work of Mother Nature. I like the myriad color patches on the flame and burls where it has analogous colors that range from yellows all the way to the red spectrum with browns, grays and black lines thrown in between. Those IMHO makes more of an interesting looking guitar tops- decoratively speaking.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## 2feathers Creative Making

chatometry said:


> I'm asking you a wild guess: how long would it take to get this "aging" effect on maple?
> 
> View attachment 218218
> 
> And what about even getting to "gray" on cherry?
> 
> View attachment 218219
> 
> Can this process be accelerated or carried out artificially?
> 
> Paolo


The cherry looks to be about 6 months to a year out in the weather. Sunlight is not solely responsible for this, I doubt. There may have been a bit of wind and rain involved.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## chatometry

So gray is not just light, but weather too.

I read something about using tanning lamps to age wood. Has anybody here tried it?
As usual, I am not willing to make anything nicer; I am just looking for a way to age samples in a reasonable amount of time so that I can measure their chatoyance before and after aging.


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## Mr. Peet

chatometry said:


> So gray is not just light, but weather too.
> 
> I read something about using tanning lamps to age wood. Has anybody here tried it?
> As usual, I am not willing to make anything nicer; I am just looking for a way to age samples in a reasonable amount of time so that I can measure their chatoyance before and after aging.


Yes, older tanning lamps have high UV output and do work.


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## phinds

chatometry said:


> So gray is not just light, but weather too.
> 
> I read something about using tanning lamps to age wood. Has anybody here tried it?
> As usual, I am not willing to make anything nicer; I am just looking for a way to age samples in a reasonable amount of time so that I can measure their chatoyance before and after aging.


Cherry, and some other woods, will respond to a UV sunlamp but I don't know how quickly. With some woods color change is due to oxidization as much as UV but cherry is not one of them.

EDIT: I should add that I although I don't know how long it would take for a UV lamp to show significant color enrichment in cherry, I DO know that it will happen considerably more quickly for cherry than for most other woods. Some woods, osage orange for example, take longer than most for the color change to occur. Some, redheart for example, take less time than most other woods. Cherry is particularly susceptible to UV.


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## chatometry

Thank you Mark and Paul
I guess I will have to make some tests...

Which ones are you thinking about when you mention oxidization?


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## trc65

I once did a test with a piece of freshly sanded cherry under some regular florescent lights. Put a piece of tape on the cherry and placed it under the lights. After 12 hours you can see small differences. Put a piece of tape on cherry in full sunlight for a day and you'll be amazed how much the color changes.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## chatometry

So cherry is a "quick changer"... 
I will try! Thank you!


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## phinds

chatometry said:


> Which ones are you thinking about when you mention oxidization?


First one that comes to mind for oxidation is Eastern red cedar (aka aromatic red cedar) but sycamore can also have a dramatic, and FAST, response to oxidation when it's first cut. There are others, but the sawyers here probably are more familiar w/ it than I am since I don't deal w/ unseasoned wood, especially freshly milled wood.

Eastern red cedar




sycamore


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## Arn213

Brazilian pernambuco would quickly oxidize if you have direct sunlight- very noticeable and could be done in a day. The same with the “wannabe” pernambuco, chakte viga/paela- has the same tanning results.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## phinds

redheart is another one that fades quickly with UV


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## phinds

Arn213 said:


> oxidize if you have direct sunlight


? 

Oxidization and UV are quite different effects


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## Arn213

phinds said:


> ?
> 
> Oxidization and UV are quite different effects


Both on oxidation and UV- just had my 2 cups of coffee after posting. I’ll post a photo if I can locate one of my planks on my file.


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## Arn213

@phinds & @chatometry- see 2 panel photo’s on the left and you can see where the sticker marks (yellow) are compare to the exposed parts (orange) where you can see vast difference in color change/transformation.


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## chatometry

@phinds thank you. ERC is one we will soon process. So I guess you would suggest testing straight after sanding, and then after X days (of oxygen but no light exposure) expecting a change (in appearance).
London plane is "Platano" in Italy - no idea why it is the same word as a sort of south-american banana.

@Arn213 thank you. What exposure was there on those Pernambuco pieces? Just oxygen, or light too? And how long? (days, weeks, ...?). I used Pernambuco once (years ago), but I did not look at this effect :(


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## phinds

Arn213 said:


> Both on oxidation and UV-


Sure, but often one or the other dominates and for many woods, whichever one dominates, it does so very strongly in the first few hours or days after milling. In my experience, most woods that change color due to one or the other do so more from UV than from oxidization. Sycamore is a strong exception.


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## DLJeffs

Purpleheart seems to change fairly quickly, going from that beautiful deep purpley-red to grey. Faster in direct sun. So is that a combination UV and oxidation?


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## Arn213

chatometry said:


> @Arn213 thank you. What exposure was there on those Pernambuco pieces? Just oxygen, or light too? And how long? (days, weeks, ...?). I used Pernambuco once (years ago), but I did not look at this effect :(


The two panels to your left was oxidation and natural light through the 3 windows at the opposite wall- strong sunlight in the morning, but I have blinds to filter that. Those were put on stickers when I reorganized my shelving unit about 6 or so years ago. But, these are really old stock- they were already 40 plus years old when I acquired them. I kept then stacked on top of one another until the reorganization.

The 2 on the far right- the right panel is the effect of both sunlight exposure (10-12 hours) and oxidation (you can also see the natural color traces from the stickers). You can see the color difference with the left panel as it is more vivid in color.

A little warning- I have both air dried and air dried/kiln dried pernies. Do not sun tan air dried pernies as it is susceptible to checking- didn’t have problem with the kiln dried and was stable. I only tried it several times as I wanted to see the effect of the color shift from yellow to orange. I have not tried it with the blood orange color pernambuco- those are very hard to come by and don’t want to gamble with the few stock I have left.


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## Arn213

phinds said:


> Sure, but often one or the other dominates and for many woods, whichever one dominates, it does so very strongly in the first few hours or days after milling. In my experience, most woods that change color due to one or the other do so more from UV than from oxidization. Sycamore is a strong exception.


Agree- UV in the forefront it is like “fast food”. I filled this in with my response to Paolo.

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## phinds

DLJeffs said:


> Purpleheart seems to change fairly quickly, going from that beautiful deep purpley-red to grey. Faster in direct sun. So is that a combination UV and oxidation?


No, purpleheart SOMETIMES decreases in attractiveness, going usually to brown but just as often goes to deeper purple. There are quite a few species sold as "purpleheart" and there are different growing regions. See my page for further comments.

In all cases, I believe that UV effect predominates over oxidization.

EDIT: Also, you can change purpleheart to a deeper purple by baking it. Again, see my page.


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## chatometry

Thanks again everyone.
I will see if I can simulate (and accelerate) the effect with UV lamps, so that timescales become reasonable. That is, except purpleheart which changes very very quickly.


phinds said:


> There are quite a few species sold as "purpleheart" and there are different growing regions. See my page for further comments.


So true. I find amazing pieces, but also boring pieces sometimes.


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## phinds

chatometry said:


> So true. I find amazing pieces, but also boring pieces sometimes.


What's MORE amazing to me is that sometimes the unattractive pieces become attractive and sometimes the attractive piece become unattractive. Damn things ought to be consistent, dammit !

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gonzalodqa

I agree with the Purpleheart comment. When freshly cut the color is very dull, after exposure the color becomes more vibrant. Not sure if it’s the light or the air though


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## phinds

Gonzalodqa said:


> I agree with the Purpleheart comment. When freshly cut the color is very dull, after exposure the color becomes more vibrant. Not sure if it’s the light or the air though


No, SOMETIMES it does that. Sometimes it goes from beautiful purple to dull brown. See my page. I seem to be repeating myself here.


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## phinds

By the way, it is also reported (I haven't yet checked it out) that white vinegar will turn purpleheart a more vibrant purple and even restore the color in faded pieces.


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## chatometry

Gonzalodqa said:


> Not sure if it’s the light or the air though


I had freshly planed boards in my (dark) lab for days - always brownish. Then I left then in sunlight for one afternoon and they got vibrant purple!
So whatever the air does, it does it very slowly w.r.t. sunlight. At least, for purpleheart...

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## Nature Man

Gonzalodqa said:


> I agree with the Purpleheart comment. When freshly cut the color is very dull, after exposure the color becomes more vibrant. Not sure if it’s the light or the air though


Very salient point about light vs air. Guess the only way to test this is either exposure to air in darkness, or exposure to light in a vacuum. Chuck


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## phinds

Nature Man said:


> Very salient point about light vs air. Guess the only way to test this is either exposure to air in darkness, or exposure to light in a vacuum. Chuck


No, you can just put on a coat of shellac. That will block oxidation and do nothing to stop UV, so you don't need a vacuum.

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## Nature Man

phinds said:


> No, you can just put on a coat of shellac. That will block oxidation and do nothing to stop UV, so you don't need a vacuum.


So much for testing “freshly cut” wood. Seems like any external additive would alter the test conditions. Chuck


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## phinds

Nature Man said:


> So much for testing “freshly cut” wood. Seems like any external additive would alter the test conditions. Chuck


Right, good point. You'd have to let the color change take place and then sand off the shellac and hope the color change goes deep enough that it doesn't come off too. Porous wood would be a problem.

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## 2feathers Creative Making

Simple vacuum system for food would work fine for this


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## chatometry

I have something like that. I will put this in the to-do list of experiments...


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## chatometry

Back to this cherry...





We measured chatoyance on 6 samples like the one on top and on 4 like the one on the bottom. Then we sanded them and repeated the test. 

Impressively, chatoyance survives weathering and it is even highlighted by it!
This is one sample before and after sanding:




Before sanding




After sanding

[more details here: https://www.chatometry.com/case-studies/sunlight-weather/sunlight-weather-exposure-on-sweet-cherry/ ]

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## phinds

Nice

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I used to know a guy who made rustic picture frames. He'd come into the yard and buy 10-15 1x4 and 1x6 ( I don't remember lengths) rough cedar every month. (He'd also weed out all the split or damaged stuff too at a discount. He'd take it and lay it out on his barn roof. He'd make his frames out of the boards he'd pull down making room for the new stuff. He'd let it sit up there for about a year. This was in Freer Texas and nobody built privacy fences. The rough cedar we sold was mostly for facia. Around here a guy can get all the weathered fencing he want for the hauling.


Alan


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## chatometry

Thanks, this is interesting. I will pay more attention to weathered wood from now on!


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## Mr. Peet

So this little end table had caning that failed. I planned to redo it. Well, after sitting outside for 8 years, I decided to convert to BTU's. 'American Black walnut' slightly weathered. Here are a few pieces as I deconstruct.







Still good inside.

Here is a piece of walnut that was stored in the attic above a garage. House was built in 1990's, no clue how long it has been there. Cold in the winter and likely very hot in the summer. The wood looks kind of orange / brown...

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## chatometry

So gray is definitely related to weathering.
I have a cumaru outdoor table which turned gray after 2-3 years; I followed somebody's suggestion and applied some sort of "teak oil" this summer (no sanding at all), and I was amazed at how it went back to brown!


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## chatometry

Back to our aged maples samples...





I found three more boards from the same company and compared their color to these samples (photos below).
My personal conclusion is that those samples above received a lot of sunlight, but that's it. I will ask the company as a double check, but I can't really see why they would paint a leftover board as their business really is veneer.

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## chatometry

We ran chatoyance tests on these nice "aged" maple samples. Shortly, it appears that sunlight exposure significantly increased chatoyance (from PZC~13 to PZC~20)

As received, front:




As received, back:




More details here:




__





Sunlight exposure on field maple – PZC Chatometry






www.chatometry.com

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## chatometry

phinds said:


> First one that comes to mind for oxidation is Eastern red cedar (aka aromatic red cedar)


We had a bit of discussion on this.
We measured chatoyance and brightness on 3 samples straight after sanding and then after about 3 weeks (air exposure only - no light)
The average of 9 measurements says:
7% reduction in brightness
0.0 PZC change in chatoyance (practically no change)

Below an example, just after sanding and then after 26 days (sample from @2feathers Creative Making , whom I thank)








Nice stuff, but definitely exotic here :(

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## phinds

chatometry said:


> We measured chatoyance and brightness on 3 samples straight after sanding and then after about 3 weeks (air exposure only - no light)


Good test Paolo. I must be wrong about it being the air that does in ERC and it's all (or almost all) the UV. Good info. Thanks.


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## chatometry

I don't know, my sample was dry. Maybe something different happens on fresh cut wood, as you mentioned. I am now testing an elm piece, from very fresh (few hours after tree felling, few minutes after log splitting) to fully dry. In the first few hours I noticed an evident darkening of the wood surface, and no light was involved... More details when I finish the tests.


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## phinds

chatometry said:


> I don't know, my sample was dry. Maybe something different happens on fresh cut wood, as you mentioned.


Well, the change is definitely most obvious in freshly cut wood. It goes from a brilliant purple to much duller and over a long time it fades to a dull tan


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## chatometry

phinds said:


> Well, the change is definitely most obvious in freshly cut wood. It goes from a brilliant purple to much duller and over a long time it fades to a dull tan


I guess I will never see fresh cut ERC here 
But if I stumble on some London Plane I will surely get it tested!


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## JerseyHighlander

I see that this is a bit older thread but both interesting and timely for me. I have a bit of a unique perspective to lend, for what it's worth. Given my carvings are done from green wood as well as using very traditional methods that I feel give me a little closer relationship to my work and material, I have the opportunity/time to see things as I'm carving. Just recently I made some notes in my Greenwood Carving thread regarding the properties of the Black Locust I was working with. I finished that and moved to another carving with a piece of Almond and have been pondering the differences I'm observing, stuff I've been making note of for quite some time and cataloging for a rainy day. It's been raining a lot here lately... 
I've noted from the beginning when I carve. wood that is green, when you take a slice of wood, exposing fresh, green wood, the color is bright and vibrant as if you just oiled a dry piece. The Black Cherry I've carved lots of would stay looking nice for a bit but if I went back over an area a bit of time later you would notice it had lost some of it's vibrance restored by the fresh cut. This goes on throughout the roughing phase until I let it dry, then make finish cuts which restores the vibrance and gives the wood a polished appearance, better then you can get from any sanding. I came to the conclusion early on that there was oxidation at play. Also the dry wood, being harder, takes a smoother cut as opposed to the somewhat fuzzy surface left when cutting it green, even with a very sharp knife. Black Walnut very similar, Birch maybe a little more dramatic but the level of oxidation always seemed to be dependent on the moisture level.
When I use the drawknife to clean the end grain for identification under a loupe, I've noted that some woods haze over with oxidation very fast while others are very gradual and mostly it is moisture level that is the primary factor. 
Recently carving the Black Locust I made several observations as I was working and ended the post about that with some discussion about some properties that appear somewhat unique. The Black Locust starts out with very little moisture content to begin with and when cutting into it there is very little of that "fresh cut" color change. Similarly, very little if any change going back over it after it's dried, very little oxidation... Interesting to me was that Black Locust is a well know very durable wood, virtually impervious to rotting. I think a primary factor in it's durability is the presence of significant amounts of silica, which may also be a factor in it's starting low moisture content. I'm sure silica also has it's own unique optical properties but that may be a tangent too far. But... now this thread got me thinking. I know, Danger Will Robinson!!! The Almond I'm presently working on was sopping wet green. Very hard wood, very hard but green it's quite pliable to cut through with a knife. When I split the log, it had really beautiful color inside and working it I was very enthusiastic but noted right away, slice a shaving, revealing extraordinary color but it would oxidize over to near grey almost instantly. As it's been drying more,, reworking sections shows the color then it hazes over again, not quite as bad but still very noticeable. Also noticeable is that it is drying much more slowly than other woods. I started thinking about the moisture and the lack of durability that the Locust has and the silica... So, what minerals does Almond have and how much may the evaporation of water at the surface, depositing minerals that were in solution, play into the hazing over/oxidation effect? Similar question goes for sugar content. Each also having an effect on optical properties. Even more so, how much is the actual wood oxidizing and how much is the minerals deposited on the surface that are oxidizing? 
The preceding has been the rantings of a lunatic mind, that is running out of break time. Have fun chewing on all of this. I'll see if I can post some pictures or video of the effects I'm talking about.

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## chatometry

Very interesting... But a very complex subject I guess. Maybe the book "wood and cellulosic chemistry" can tell something.
Unfortunately, I am not familiar with fresh wood. I only cut some elm, which seems light brown when just cut, and then it quickly oxidizes (?) to medium dark brown.
However, I am very curious about this:


JerseyHighlander said:


> then make finish cuts which restores the vibrance and gives the wood a polished appearance, better then you can get from any sanding


Is it easy to achieve this result? Do you sharpen your tools in a specific way? Is it easy for someone who never did it?
I ask because I hear that a very sharp cutting tool provides a better finish (and chatoyance) than any sanding. This is confirmed by some of our tests on veneer as received and then sanded to 1500 grit ( https://www.chatometry.com/case-studies/raw-veneer-vs-fine-sanded/ ).


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## phinds

JerseyHighlander said:


> Have fun chewing on all of this


Your "paragraph" (exposition actually) is too long to chew on.

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## JerseyHighlander

phinds said:


> Your "paragraph" (exposition actually) is too long to chew on.


Yah, it runs on a little. I left my English major suit at home.


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## JerseyHighlander

chatometry said:


> Very interesting... But a very complex subject I guess. Maybe the book "wood and cellulosic chemistry" can tell something.
> Unfortunately, I am not familiar with fresh wood. I only cut some elm, which seems light brown when just cut, and then it quickly oxidizes (?) to medium dark brown.
> However, I am very curious about this:
> 
> Is it easy to achieve this result? Do you sharpen your tools in a specific way? Is it easy for someone who never did it?
> I ask because I hear that a very sharp cutting tool provides a better finish (and chatoyance) than any sanding. This is confirmed by some of our tests on veneer as received and then sanded to 1500 grit ( https://www.chatometry.com/case-studies/raw-veneer-vs-fine-sanded/ ).


It's easy for me but like anything, a learned skill. In much of my carving work I could be called a cheater, I don't try for perfectly flat/smooth, I leave the tool marks and facets as part of the finish. But I can get much the same effect on flatwork with a plane or scraper. 

Sharpening the tools... in a word, surgical. Risking further Wrath of Phinds, yes, sharp is the top three of five requirements. I have quite a bit of money invested in assorted water stones and oil stones which top out somewhere around 10,000 grit. If I can't read the newspaper in the reflection of my plane blades, they aren't properly polished and won't cut shavings thin enough for me to read the newspaper through. 
Absolutely no secondary bevel ever and of course blades must be of high quality steel properly hardened and tempered. My drawknives are over 100 years old, forge welded laminated steel. I don't think you could buy a modern equivalent unless you had it hand made, with old steel. 

Not sure what you use but think about a good high quality hand plane, such as a Lie Neilson. *





Lie-Nielsen Toolworks







www.lie-nielsen.com




*

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## chatometry

Thank you!

It looks like sharpening is an art on its own... I guess it is too challenging for me!

I will see if I can find any "experts" like yourself here in Italy, so that they can help me manufacturing some perfectly planed samples for our chatoyance samples!


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## JerseyHighlander

chatometry said:


> Thank you!
> 
> It looks like sharpening is an art on its own... I guess it is too challenging for me!
> 
> I will see if I can find any "experts" like yourself here in Italy, so that they can help me manufacturing some perfectly planed samples for our chatoyance samples!


When your going to the extremes, yes, it's a bit of an art unto itself, but it's not some magic only special people can do. It's really not that hard to learn and get good results pretty fast. In the beginning you can use jigs and fixtures to hold the blades at exact angles and get very good results right away. With experience you learn to do it by hand and on much more than just flat, straight blades but I don't think you need to go there for what you want to do. Good quality steel blade, a set of reasonably good sharpening stones and a bit of understanding, you'll progress by an order of magnitude in no time.

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## chatometry

Back to the beginning of this thread... Eventually we made some artificial sunlight tests with an old tanning lamp (as per Mark's suggestion).
This is maple, freshly sanded (1500-grit) and after 32hrs exposure - quite a difference!








The test is ongoing, because results still do not appear stabilized...
Then it would be good to finish the sample and see if the increased chatoyance caused by "tanning" is also carried to the finished surface.

More details here:


UV light exposure – PZC Chatometry



Paolo

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## 2feathers Creative Making

I have a piece of quarter sawn oak that has been weathering for a while now. The ray flecks are now visible from 3+ meters when the sun hits it.


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## Jonkou

How old would you guess this hand planed only boards are?







Matching chairs








Dyes and keys can be very effective to age wood.





The table is about 12 yrs old, the chairs are made in NH circa 1860s to complete the illusion.

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## 2feathers Creative Making

After that intro, this could be a modern reproduction. Anything from "finished yesterday" to finished yesteryear.

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## chatometry

2feathers Creative Making said:


> I have a piece of quarter sawn oak that has been weathering for a while now. The ray flecks are now visible from 3+ meters when the sun hits it.


Oak will be within our next test batch then! Any othe suggestions? I was thinking about Cherry, Walnut and Padouk.


Jonkou said:


> How old would you guess this hand planed only boards are?


Interesting... I wonder if it would darken further if exposed to direct sunlight. 

Paolo


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## 2feathers Creative Making

One wood that everyone uses its chatoyance to identify, is mahogany. The ribbon figure is what most folks use to differentiate between it and Walnut. I know it doesn't dissappear as it ages but I never thought to check if it gets more pronounced. Interesting thought. I have a piece or 2 around the house. My wife will think I am nuts with my flashlight checking out her furniture. Oh well, she has always suspected it...

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## chatometry

Well, mine knows it for sure. I check my panga panga floor looking for signs of chatoyance - and I found it on one plank!

Anyway, are you thinking of Entandophragma (Sapele in my case), or Swietenia Macrophylla? 

Thanks for the suggestion!
Paolo


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## 2feathers Creative Making

Older furniture is more likely to be swietenia macrophylla. So most likely - that one. Sapele tends to be a newer replacement for the real stuff.

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## chatometry

Ok, Swietenia will be then! 
Thanks
Paolo

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## 2feathers Creative Making

both ends of the oak I referred to shot at full overcast outdoor light from 1/2 meter distance


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## Jonkou

chatometry said:


> Oak will be within our next test batch then! Any othe suggestions? I was thinking about Cherry, Walnut and Padouk.
> 
> Interesting... I wonder if it would darken further if exposed to direct sunlight.
> 
> Paolo


Would think so. Built this about 10 yrs ago from similar local cut and been hanging out of direct sun light since.

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## Arn213

chatometry said:


> Ok, Swietenia will be then!
> Thanks
> Paolo


You have to go further up the food chain for genuine mahogany species. If you can find it in Italy, but most likely your search will end up in the UK (history of trade and period furniture). Swietenia mahogani- the ribbon stripe w/ vertical grain or any crotch would blow any s. macrophylla.

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## 2feathers Creative Making

Arn213 said:


> You have to go further up the food chain for genuine mahogany species. If you can find it in Italy, but most likely your search will end up in the UK (history of trade and period furniture). Swietenia mahogani- the ribbon stripe w/ vertical grain or any crotch would blow any s. macrophylla.


Yep. With true, you don't have to inspect to differentiate from walnut. It will flag you down in passing...


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## chatometry

2feathers Creative Making said:


> both ends of the oak I referred to shot at full overcast outdoor light from 1/2 meter distance


Definitely visible... But it looks like there was some weathering involved too, isn't it?



Jonkou said:


> Would think so. Built this about 10 yrs ago from similar local cut and been hanging out of direct sun light since.


This scares me about some wood species: the risk of having items leaving "shadows" on them after exposure to sunlight, even if not direct. My floor completely darkened, and if I move a piece of furniture I will surely see it. Thumbs down on wood for this...



Arn213 said:


> Swietenia mahogani


Will try, but it's absolutely not common stuff here... Thanks, anyway!

PS after the brexit, if I buy 50€ of goods in the uk I pay 50€ for shipping and another 50€ for import duties... -_-


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## Arn213

chatometry said:


> This scares me about some wood species: the risk of having items leaving "shadows" on them after exposure to sunlight, even if not direct. My floor completely darkened, and if I move a piece of furniture I will surely see it. Thumbs down on wood for this...


This does happen especially if your room has southern exposure and if you think little furniture foot prints “scares” you, then this if you have a large area rug (8’ x 10”, 9 x 12’, 10’ x 14’, etc.) in specific room, you will find a nice surprise of color tone difference underneath that area rug if you have wood floors versus wood floors that are exposed directly. This is more obvious on darker stained flooring or dark to medium color tone natural wood (unstained). Your window treatment is your friend.




chatometry said:


> Will try, but it's absolutely not common stuff here... Thanks, anyway!
> 
> PS after the brexit, if I buy 50€ of goods in the uk I pay 50€ for shipping and another 50€ for import duties..


Yes, I know the VAT is a deal killer in Europe especially from purchases overseas. My luthier friend in AU feels the same way- it is really high there. A friend of mine has a connection in the UK (woodworker with really old genuine Swietenia mahogani)- if you are interested I can have him forward me his info. By the way, Cuban mahogany are available here in the US- Florida is a state that has them. I was able to buy some nice 16/4 from an arborist there. Believe it or not Cuban Mahogany was planted by settlers, so The Big Island of Hawaii is where you can get them. I could have both huge 8/4 slabs in the 15” wide plus range, but they are way too heavy for guitar bodies. Good for reproduction shielded back like a Hepplewhite or Chippendale style as the tensile strength is better than swietenia macrophylla.


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## 2feathers Creative Making

chatometry said:


> Definitely visible... But it looks like there was some weathering involved too, isn't it?


Yes. Weathering is also involved. This was "full" exposure.


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## chatometry

Arn213 said:


> A friend of mine has a connection in the UK (woodworker with really old genuine Swietenia mahogani)- if you are interested I can have him forward me his info.


Thanks for offering. I don't want to waste your time; first I will see what I can find surfing through internet.
The "Mahogany" word ("Mogano" here) is definitely abused.




2feathers Creative Making said:


> Weathering is also involved.


Maybe we already discussed this, but I can't find the conclusion: is there a way to artificially weather wood? Was it vinegar?


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## 2feathers Creative Making

Vinegar and steel wool gray it out but are mainly a tannic acid reaction. Ammonia is the "official" weathering agent to the best of my knowledge.

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## chatometry

Thank you! Will give it a try!
Paolo


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## phinds

2feathers Creative Making said:


> Ammonia is the "official" weathering agent to the best of my knowledge.


My understanding that with oak, at least, ammonia doesn't weather the wood, it darkens it. Weathering it would make it silver.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_fuming

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## chatometry

That's interesting, because I was planning to start with oak... Any known effects on black walnut?


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## 2feathers Creative Making

phinds said:


> My understanding that with oak, at least, ammonia doesn't weather the wood, it darkens it. Weathering it would make it silver.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_fuming


The vinegar will silver it first. I am not an expert on aging or treatments. Just messed a little bit with the vinegar thing.

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## chatometry

Hi everyone
Here are some more data about UV exposure of other species.



UV light exposure – PZC Chatometry



I am not 100% sure about the reason for the fluctuation. 
To sum up, no evident change on Swietenia Macrophylla.

Black Walnut had an interesting shift from a violet-ish to a bronze-ish color:




Before exposure




After exposure (40hrs)

The next batch will include purpleheart and padouk; any other suggestions are welcome.

Paolo

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## 2feathers Creative Making

chatometry said:


> Hi everyone
> Here are some more data about UV exposure of other species.
> 
> 
> 
> UV light exposure – PZC Chatometry
> 
> 
> 
> I am not 100% sure about the reason for the fluctuation.
> To sum up, no evident change on Swietenia Macrophylla.
> 
> Black Walnut had an interesting shift from a violet-ish to a bronze-ish color:
> 
> View attachment 229103
> Before exposure
> 
> View attachment 229102
> After exposure (40hrs)
> 
> The next batch will include purpleheart and padouk; any other suggestions are welcome.
> 
> Paolo


Mulberry and most other yellow toned woods turn deep golden brown with uv exposure. Many of them will turn golden brown with oxygen exposure even without sunlight. It just takes much longer.

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## chatometry

Could Black Locust also make sense instead of Mulberry?

Paolo


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## phinds

chatometry said:


> Here are some more data about UV exposure of other species.


Great info, Paolo. Thanks.

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## phinds

chatometry said:


> Could Black Locust also make sense instead of Mulberry?
> 
> Paolo


Not sure what you're asking. Black locust does darken with age but takes longer than mulberry.


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## 2feathers Creative Making

chatometry said:


> Could Black Locust also make sense instead of Mulberry?
> 
> Paolo


Just a moment. When I finish my coffee, I will try to find my black locust. I reckon it changes some.


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## phinds

2feathers Creative Making said:


> Just a moment. When I finish my coffee, I will try to find my black locust. I reckon it changes some.


You can see on my site that given enough time it changes significantly.

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## 2feathers Creative Making

My phone disagreed with me. It died before the coffee was gone. I checked my stack of black walnut and would estimate a 15 % max darkening in 12 weeks of sun light.


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## chatometry

I went through the Hobbithouse page about black locust - impressive how dark that dark piece is!
I have a very dark piece from a very old table, I should cut it to see how it looks inside!


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## SENC

A pretty piece of cocobola I cut a chunk off yesterday - seeing the color variance made me think of this thread. I've had this 2" thick board for roughly 10 years. It would have had some but minimal direct sunlight/uv.

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## 2feathers Creative Making

The darkening in the interior leads me to believe this is oxidation as opposed to uv darkening. Uv darkening will usually stop at less than 1/8 inch or 3 to 4 mm.

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