# Who's built their own shop or poured concrete?



## Gixxerjoe04

So my wife put our house up for sale a couple weeks ago and it sold rather quickly, like 30 hours, and we now have a contract on a new house. Closing dates on both are April 25th. The good thing about the new house is it has a 30x42 pole barn shop on it, bad thing about it is it has a dirt floor. So, pretty pumped about eventually having a big shop, problem is getting a slab poured. For anyone who has had a shop built or know anything about the concrete business, anyone have a rough guess of what I might look to be paying to have it done? I figured a 4" thick slab would be enough for a woodworking and crap storage shop. That would be 16 yards of concrete which would be around $1800. I've worked with concrete before but nothing to this scale or finishing of it that would need done to it. I originally wanted to get as many people I know who were willing to come help and do it ourselves, my wife's step dad has worked in construction forever who knows a lot about the whole process, but could be an expensive risk. What would you all do in my situation? Not going to have $10k to spend on a concrete floor. Figure it would cost around $3k in materials and rentals to do it ourselves roughly. Thought about once I see how much it'll actually cost, just do half of it now and the other half later when I have more money to spend. It has electric but will have to run more lines and some 220, plus insulate it before winter.


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## JR Custom Calls

I meant to tell you to make sure to put conduit in so you can run electric to your tools without extension cords. Like your table saw especially. I'm still game for helping as long as you wait until after turkey season

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## Mike1950

My guess not knowing labor in your area is less then 5k with concrete if there is not a lot of prep work. Call somebody on craigslist- get a ballpark. I used to do my own- young mans work. I had 500 ft done last year- about 1000 bucks for labor.


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## Kevin

My wife and I did all the concrete prep work for our 2500 shop and were finish tying the steel under work lights and headlights at 10 pm the night before the conrete finishers and trucks were coming the next morning. Me and one other buddy erected and welded the steel frame and put all panels on and doors up - it was not a kit we designed it and made the parts list ourselves. But it's been so long ago none of our costs (even if I could remember them) would be relevant. 

Your slab calls for 15.5 yards of concrete so you have not figured in the footing and mid beam which you will be sorry if you leave out. Also in your cost you have not figured in rebar which you will be even sorrier if you leave out. You will also need mositure barrier and rebar chairs (makes it much easier than rocks etc.) and ties. All of it adds up. You will also want to slap together some forms for whatever other small concrete work you may need because the last truck will want to empty and wash at your place and they will give you whetever excess concrete is n their truck. Make use of it.

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## Bill Hatton

I used a guy on craigslist a few years ago for a 20 x 21 he dug footers put in wire in the floor re bar in the footers and used Fiberglass in the concrete. The total was $1800.00 and he back filled the forms after he pulled them. Put conduit in for electric. And since this is Florida he put a low spot where the roll-up doors come down so if the wind blows (aka hurricane) the water can not get in and the bottom of the door would push against the lip.

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## ripjack13

Too far for me to help out. I love concrete work, but not that much.

Take pix of the shop....one from each corner inward.
That will help us finger this out.
You might be able to get away with using wire mats instead of rebar...but...Check your building code to make sure of it though. They might want an inspection of it and the pour.

Ship lap a square frame around the posts, and pour them after. They keep the floor from cracking and helps with settling of the building.

The extra concrete the truck may have is good for blocks. Make big enough to where either you can move em, or you and a buddy are able to move em.
The extra mesh can be used inside em for strength depending on the sizes you make.

For the washout of the truck, dig a good size hole about 1' deep and 8' diameter. When it's all dried up, bury it....

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## Kevin

Not sure about your soil Joe but cattle panels/wire mesh is not a good idea here. Rebar is a must. You can't stop concrete from cracking if it wants, the rebar is not for that. It's for keeping the cracks from pulling apart and heaving independent of the mass across the crack (keeping things even across cracks). Be careful about using anything but rebar depending on your soil type. You also want to get the footing below the frost line if you can.

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## Gixxerjoe04

Why can't you all live around here haha, WB road trip, we have cheap kiln dried lumber around here haha. I'm going to the house on Thursday to meet the inspector, told my realtor to ask them to leave a key so I can take pics and all that. I wish I could hire someone who knows how to finish and what they're doing, and have me and my friends do the other labor, and him be our boss for the day basically, but they'd probably charge more haha. @Kevin is there a way to test my soil besides hiring a guy? Of all the houses we looked at, all the other ones had good shops but needed a ton of upgrades, figured this would be easier and cheaper than replacing bathrooms, flooring and taking out walls in a house.


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## steve bellinger

Just south of you here in TN i've set up tons of slab pours. I don't know of anyone that puts rebar in there slabs. Wire mesh yes but not rebar. I've done slabs for at&t among others and as far as i can tell they have held up just fine. Now i always insist the finisher puts in zip strip so if it does crack it is a nice straight line. IMHO all you need to do is dig at least 1 ft deep all along the out side perimeter, at least 12 t0 14" wide then add some 24 x 24 peers 12" deep down the center line. Again IMHO get a pro to do the finishing. Bet you can find someone to poor and finish for 1,500 or less. If you were down here i know a man that i use quit often that would do a slab that size for no more than 1,200. He has done a number of 24 x 30 slabs for me at 500. Now after saying all that, call a pro and see if you have any strange codes up there we don't have here. Heck it don't cost ya a thing to get a quote.:)


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## Mike1950

I dug around the edge of mine and put 2 " blue foam insulation. It has paid me back 10 times over. cracks- I have rebar- also they came in and cut grooves- I have a really nice/ugly crack running parallel to one of the cuts for about 15 ft. about 2' from cut. Concrete cracks.......


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## Kevin

Gixxerjoe04 said:


> @Kevin is there a way to test my soil besides hiring a guy?



You don't need to test your soil as in testing it for certain minerals etc. You need to get a local concrete guy with a good rep to come out and give you a bid on the pouring and finishing - ask him about what type of soil you have there e.g. blackland, sandy loam, clay, mainly you are wanting to know if it's an expansive type of soil - they will expand and shrink like wood more than more stable types of soil. Steve just said they can get away with wire mesh where he lives so maybe you'll be as lucky. Wire mesh is faster to install but not all that cheaper for small slabs like homes and shops so I just don't see the benefit in using such fragile materiel so I never even consider mesh. Plus, the soil here is highly expansive so you can forget mesh.

I had to tear out a concrete drive here on my property that at the time I tore it out in 2003 it was 12 years old. It had wire panels in it and they were rusted so bad they offered no mechanical benefit to concrete and the various "continents" were at all different levels where the cracks were and the slab was essentially useless. It's the soil here that caused it but with my experience with mesh and as noted it isn't all that more expensive to use rebar and shoot for generations of use from the concrete, I use rebar only. Also remember that even a single acre can change soil type from one side to the other. Get a local concrete contractor to come out Joe. All the advice on the internet won't touch what an experienced & reputable local guy can do for you in one 30 minute visit. Ask him specifically about rebar vs mesh in your area, and use his opinion as a guide. Ask hin the difference in cost between rebar and mesh and see if he thinks the savings is worth the much smaller gauge protection. Keep us updated.

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## JR Custom Calls

Yeah, rebar isn't used in slabs around here. Big buildings it is, but I've seen several slabs poured for shops, houses, garages, etc... all they ever use is the wire mesh.


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## Mike1950

get more then one bid....

Reactions: Agree 3


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## steve bellinger

Not that it matters, but when i worked for H&M. They are a local co. that are licensed in all 48 states in the US. They build schools and large factory's all over the country. Of all the buildings i helped on, not one of the slabs had rebar in them. Now all the walls ( tilt panels) had a ton in them, and all the footers had two tons in them.:) Not saying it ain't a good idea, just don't see it any more like we use to 35 years ago.


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## Kevin

steve bellinger said:


> Not that it matters, but when i worked for H&M. They are a local co. that are licensed in all 48 states in the US. They build schools and large factory's all over the country. Of all the buildings i helped on, not one of the slabs had rebar in them. Now all the walls ( tilt panels) had a ton in them, and all the footers had two tons in them.:) Not saying it ain't a good idea, just don't see it any more like we use to 35 years ago.



Are they pouring fiber mesh concrete? Because if they are that a whole other story. I poured a fiber mesh slab for Edward D Jones & company in 1996 when fiber mesh was new (at least new here) and they haven't had a problem with it. Maybe fiber mesh is the norm now but I wouldn't know.


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## steve bellinger

Kevin yea they all most always poor fiber mesh slabs. It's rare that they poor anything but mesh down here.

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## Kevin

steve bellinger said:


> Kevin yea they all most always poor fiber mesh slabs. It's rare that they poor anything but mesh down here.



Okay well then that explains a lot then. I'm just too old school is the problem - that's a nice way of saying I am way behind the times haha. When I poured that fiber mesh slab I would not even use wire mesh even though I was friends with the manager of our local mixing plant who said it was okay to use mesh instead of rebar in the slab. Fiber mesh was brand new to our area I was one of the first contractors to use it so I went with rebar anyway lol. It was a monolithic pour too so I bet that slab could be picked up in one piece if there was a crane that could do it!


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## Mike1950

Used fiber in pour last year. As a plasterer -we have used fiber in stucco since the 60's and inside homes they used horsehair for a very long time.

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## steve bellinger

LOL Yea if i could afford to retire i could get away from all this new fangled stuff and be really happy.:) Now as far as that crane goes i bet there's one out there that would make that slab seem like a feather.LOL Now to be 100% honest i havn't done any commercial work in 5 or 6 years, so it could of changed a bit. I still am doing all aspects of construction from framing to form work to sheetrock, trim, ect.

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## Dennis Ford

Every time that I have done concrete, I told myself that I would not do it again. I don't mind doing the prep, forms, steel etc but much prefer to hire a crew to do the pour. It is not that big of an expense when compared to the total cost and a decent crew will do a better job than those who don't do it often (like me).

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Kevin

I agree Dennis. Unless it's a storage shed or something I always sub out the finish work. And if it's a large slab I will sub the whole thing and sit and drink coffee and eat choco donuts. I love sipping coffee and eating donuts during a sun-up pour. Watching hard work sure is fun.


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## Gixxerjoe04

I will def get multiple bids and see where I'm at with funds and all of that. Would def love to just have it done professionally and not have to think about it, but with a baby on the way and buying the house, money is going to be tight for awhile so will have to see. With the internet, I always try to figure out if I can do a project first before paying someone to do it, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't haha. Which makes something this big and expensive project pretty risky to try.


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## Fsyxxx

I'm in the same boat, sorta. Selling my house in Austin and moving out to blanco. Got a budget that I think is reasonable and I'm sure I'll do a lot of the work myself. My goal is a 30 x 40 two story shop/ studio. One of my buddies said the slab prep was easy enough just hire the trucks and finisher, seems like that what I am seeg here also...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## rocky1

The cost of hiring someone that has the tools and knowledge to do the job properly is minimal in comparison to the cost of screwing up that much concrete and having to grind it smooth, or worse yet jackhammer it up and start over. While pouring concrete isn't rocket science, it is hard work, and experience in finishing it is advisable on a slab of that size. You're not talking a simple little sidewalk pour there, where you level it out broom it off and go drink beer. You're talking SEVERAL hours on the work end of a power trowel to get anything that resembles a shop floor, and those things will whip your ass in a hurry if you don't know how to run one.

Talk to local contractors, find out who pours the flattest smoothest floor in the area, and work down on what you can afford from there. Concrete is forever, do a poor job on it, hire a poor job done on it, and you'll cuss it till the end of time. Find someone who pours a flat, smooth, level slab and you will appreciate it every time you try to build anything straight, square, or level.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Great Post 1


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## kweinert

Not related to concrete, but to the idea that the right person with the right tools is the way to go.

We took out the old wood paneling in the basement (on 2x2 "studs"), put up insulation behind it and between the studs, added can lights in the ceiling. Rebuilt the wall between the family room and the one bedroom and built the closet.

After carrying down 10 sheets of 4x8 drywall (one at a time) I kind of got the idea that this might not be the kind of job I'd really want to finish on my own.

For $1800 we hired a guy (and his apprentice) to bring in 35 more sheets of drywall, install, mud, tape, sand, and texture the downstairs. This included the small bathroom (not the shower), fixing 3 holes in existing walls, the drywall around the newly enclosed cold air return, the ceiling in the family room, half the ceiling in the one bedroom, and the build out around where the water pipe came in to the house (which includes a built in bookcase.)

It took the two of them 5 days in total. They had nifty machines for applying the mud. They did a great job in a lot less time than I would have been able to. The holes around the can lights fit perfectly.

A smaller job I would have tackled. And not done as well.

Absolutely worth the money to us to have it done professionally.

Now, if you have the experience, ability, and time then go for it. Just know where the dividing line is.

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## steve bellinger

kweinert said:


> Not related to concrete, but to the idea that the right person with the right tools is the way to go.
> 
> We took out the old wood paneling in the basement (on 2x2 "studs"), put up insulation behind it and between the studs, added can lights in the ceiling. Rebuilt the wall between the family room and the one bedroom and built the closet.
> 
> After carrying down 10 sheets of 4x8 drywall (one at a time) I kind of got the idea that this might not be the kind of job I'd really want to finish on my own.
> 
> For $1800 we hired a guy (and his apprentice) to bring in 35 more sheets of drywall, install, mud, tape, sand, and texture the downstairs. This included the small bathroom (not the shower), fixing 3 holes in existing walls, the drywall around the newly enclosed cold air return, the ceiling in the family room, half the ceiling in the one bedroom, and the build out around where the water pipe came in to the house (which includes a built in bookcase.)
> 
> It took the two of them 5 days in total. They had nifty machines for applying the mud. They did a great job in a lot less time than I would have been able to. The holes around the can lights fit perfectly.
> 
> A smaller job I would have tackled. And not done as well.
> 
> Absolutely worth the money to us to have it done professionally.
> 
> Now, if you have the experience, ability, and time then go for it. Just know where the dividing line is.


Yep I'm doing Sheetrock repair right now I can do it fairly well but still don't care for it we priced the tools that the pros use and for top grade they were just over 5 grand. So sounds like you got a great job at a fair price to me

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## Gixxerjoe04

Well I figured if I can't afford to get the whole thing done when we move in, as long as I can get half of it done I'd be fine, would still be 50% more room than what I have now. Not only do I have to get this done, but gotta get a zero turn too. Thought about making another thread but maybe enough people will see this. Anyone know if Husqvarna zero turns are any good? A local place has a pretty good deal going on one of their commercial zero turns. It's a MZT61, if I get it and 3 other husqvarna items, I can get 20% off the whole thing. Of course I think I'm gonna finance it and make one of the items a 395XP chainsaw to mill lumber with. Went and looked at the mower and it looks nice and well built with a 27hp kawasaki motor on it I believe.


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## rocky1

If you can find enough friends that will work for beer, you might ask the contractor if you can get a break on the finishing price if you help out with labor to run wheelbarrows. Unless you have 14 foot high doors on the building, the concrete truck isn't going in. Most of them anymore require at least 12 1/2' clearance to the top of that little hopper where they load the truck, and I've seen a few that were 13'+. That is not to mention, if the ground is sloped away from the building, as it typically is, that can add an inch or two. Typically they will have 15' - 20' of chute on the truck, but you'll need almost 12' of clearance to the top of the door to use all of that, if you can't back in the building. And, if you can't back in, that hopper on top will stick out far enough that you're going to lose the first section of chute. 

Bottom-line is, if you don't have a really tall door on one end of the building, or 12' doors on both ends of the building, over half of the concrete is going to have to be rolled. At which point you hope for a concrete truck driver that knows how to fill a wheelbarrow somewhere short of running over; most don't. I used to swear they did it on purpose just to listen to you cuss. Accused a few of them of such!! 

One other thing you might want to consider is running heat under the floor. It's the most efficient way to heat a shop with a concrete floor.


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## Gixxerjoe04

Yea i thought about trying to haggle with us doing some of the hard part and one of the guys doing the finish work. Did read online about the height issue of trucks, doubt my doors are tall enough but going to measure Thursday. Read that sometimes the chutes can reach up to like 20 feet, guess might depend on the company. Was wondering if it'd be difficult to take down one of the metal panels on the end to run the chute in and be able to reach the back easier. Thought about the radiant heat in the flooring but heard that's pretty expensive, thought about putting a wood stove or something. Here's a pic from the for sale post so you can at least get an idea of it.

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## JohnF

Some concrete companies also have pump trucks. There wouldn't be any wheel barrows involved if you used one of those. Nice looking shop building btw.


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## rocky1

Typically they have 2 sections of chute fixed to the truck. The first one attached to the truck and a second that folds back over it during transport. It's too far up there to attach the second easily, so it's generally fixed to the first. From there, they will usually carry 2 or 3 removable sections tied on over the rear fenders on the truck. Each section is 4 ft., overlaps 2 inches on each end. 

Removing panels on the end of the building would be a possibility, but it would really be a pain! Trim at the top of the building would have to be taken loose too. Typically top of the sheet is screwed on, then trim screwed over that. The sheet of tin will generally have at least 2 screws in the top, to hold it in place until you get back to it with trim, (_if the wind comes up and it's not secure, it's not uncommon for wind to fold it over_). Some folks screw it up tight to help tie the rafter on the end of the building down better. All of that depends on the contractor.

You may be in luck though, that appears to be a 16ft. sidewall on that building. If they ran the header up directly under the rafter, which is pretty common on pole barn construction, it should give you a 14 ft. door. Depends on whether they put slide doors on the end, or a roll up. Were it in ND, I'd guess slide, and probably big enough to get a fair sized tractor in given the hill in that feedlot/pasture behind the barn. But down there in KY I honestly don't know.


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## Gixxerjoe04

The doors are slide to the side ones, hoping they're big enough. Should be able to get detailed pics and measurements thursday so will keep everyone posted.


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## Gixxerjoe04

So I went to the house today for the inspection, news wasn't the best. The house, said the roof is deteriorating faster than it should, only 11 years old and has 30 year shingles and he guesses it will need replacing in 3-5 years. The inspector doesn't do out buildings, but I was talking to him about my plans and he happened to be a woodworker too. I had a question about it because the roof looked like it was sagging. I assume the guy built it himself, because he said it needs twice the amount of trusses, there's 5 of them 10 feet apart. Said it would have been fine if they used thicker materials, but that's the reason for the sag. Said with all the thick snow we had over the past couple years he's surprised it hasn't failed. And the door is only 10 feet high.

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## Gixxerjoe04




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## Kevin

The roof is a potentially big problem. You can add more trusses for 5' centers but there's a lot of variable on how easy/difficult it would be mainly your pitch (steeper the pitch easier it would be) and what type of insulation is in there. The optimal time to do it would be during a re-roof because you'll want to cut access holes where each joist will be fastened to the top plates. you wouldn't need to pull decking just cut some access squares in the decking about the plates, the replace them. You would also want to carefully bag the insulation everywhere you would be fastening the truss joists to the top plates and any interior load bearing walls. Compressed insulation is not nearly ass effective and the more compression the less ineffective. You will also need to screw through the decking (or nail - I prefer screws but check your code) along and into the truss rafters of course. then once you've done all that replace your access holes at the eaves and lay down your under-layment and roof it.

There's more to it but it's not usually as bad as it sounds. Hiring it done would be expensive but it's not rocket science.


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## Mike1950

My pro built pole building has a double factory made truss on each pole. but poles are 10' apart. pretty standard here. Not quite sure with out adding poles how you would put trusses at 5'?? metal roofing will sweat on condensate without the insulation under it.


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## Gixxerjoe04

Mike1950 said:


> My pro built pole building has a double factory made truss on each pole. but poles are 10' apart. pretty standard here. Not quite sure with out adding poles how you would put trusses at 5'?? metal roofing will sweat on condensate without the insulation under it.


Guess he was saying if they were gonna use such weak trusses they should have put poles and trusses every 5 feet, or if they had just used beefier wood instead of 2x4's it would have been fine.

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## rocky1

Uhmmm... Yeah! Good lord, what a mess!

Personally, I'd take the roof off of it and start over. I wouldn't even attempt to fix that.

See If you can find a source locally for steel roof trusses, have them come out and measure it, and see...

IF their trusses would fit in the existing walls without too much trouble.
IF they are anywhere close to the existing pitch.
IF the purloins are anywhere close to lining up on their rafters.

In example: -- http://www.ebay.com/itm/Steel-Roof-...se-Stalls-Agriculture-Pole-Barn-/121601210305

A steel truss will carry the load on a 10 foot span. 

IF the purloins will line up, you may be able to reuse the old tin. IF they don't, you may be able to get them to weld the purloin brackets on a set of steel trusses so that they do. That's a BIG IF because it's going to be outside the realms of their jigs. And, most steel truss companies aren't that easy to deal with.

IF they will fit, assuming you are going to finish interior walls anyhow. Straighten out the side walls, (_cause I'm betting they aren't plumb either_), (_probably not real square too_), go ahead and pour your floor, frame your walls up between the existing posts, (_might be able to use the existing purloins to frame your walls up_), so you can support a 2x8 header on top of the stud wall. Set your metal trusses on top of the header, and start over with the roof. 

Trying to work off what you have there for a roof is at best questionable.

I've built several pole barns, I've worked on several other pole barns, I've drank beer, worked cattle, sheered sheep, chased hogs, fixed equipment, and otherwise been in a WHOLE BUNCH of poles barns, I've seen pictures of BUNCHES MORE pole barns, and in all my nearly 6 decades on the face of this earth, I have never seen a pole barn roof that (&%)&%^ up in my life!

1.) You do not bolt a rafter to the side of a post!
2.) You do not scab pieces of 2x6 to the side of a post to support a rafter!
3.) You do not span 10 ft. on 2 ft, centers with a 2x4.
4.) I know they are called rafter brackets, but they are not made to support the entire roof on a building of that size.
5.) You do not span 10 ft.. with a single wooden rafter.
6.) Those rafters aren't even remotely designed to span 32 ft. 

I'd ask the realtor how motivated the seller is, and seek concessions on the roof on the house, and pending reconstruction of the pole barn.

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## Kevin

Joe I didn't think you were referring to the barn - I read your post as you were saying the HOUSE had trusses every 10'. I just pictured a ramshackle house at best. I didn't want to say anything like JOE WHY ARE YOU BUYING SUCH A HOUSE?! 



Gixxerjoe04 said:


> So I went to the house today for the inspection, news wasn't the best. The house, said the roof is deteriorating faster than it should, only 11 years old and has 30 year shingles and he guesses it will need replacing in 3-5 years.


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## rocky1

I thought maybe Cheech had stopped by to see you, or maybe Chong. I was wondering where you were coming up with that insulation you were bagging and cutting port holes and interior support walls and what not, in that pole barn roof up there! Dementia setting in, is it???


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## Kevin

rocky1 said:


> I thought maybe Cheech had stopped by to see you, or maybe Chong. I was wondering where you were coming up with that insulation you were bagging and cutting port holes and interior support walls and what not, in that pole barn roof up there! Dementia setting in, is it???



Go ahead and make fun. My momma dropped me on my head when I was a baby. The docs all said I'd never be able to live out on my own but I showed them. I became so successful I even have my own private nurse. I'll be back in a minute guys.

_Honey! Can I have my bowl of Cinnamon Crunch now? . . . ._

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## rocky1

You don't live anywhere close to Willy out there in Texas do you?

Reactions: +Karma 1


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## Gixxerjoe04

Kevin said:


> Joe I didn't think you were referring to the barn - I read your post as you were saying the HOUSE had trusses every 10'. I just pictured a ramshackle house at best. I didn't want to say anything like JOE WHY ARE YOU BUYING SUCH A HOUSE?!


Haha, the roof on the house isn't in the best shape which is a big expense in less than 5 years, AND the shop seemed to be held together with chewing gum and duck tape. So this dang house will be a money pit if something isn't done by the owners. Can't really justify buying a house that isn't under priced when I'm going to have to spend like $25-30k on a new roof and on the shop to make it usable.


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