# Files



## Tclem

Guy from work use to race funny cars up in jersey and has had these files from his dad. Probably 30-40 years old and this is just a couple. He has 100 of these. Wants me to make a knife for him. Oh. He also said bring over my steel and he will cut them out on his plasma cutter. (That beats an angle grinder and my belt sander).

Reactions: Like 1 | Way Cool 5


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## Molokai

That will make excellent knives. Try to ht-em like W2 steel. 
I just finished one from old file. Try to leave some pattern on top of grind, and ricasso. If you like that.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## Kevin



Reactions: Useful 1


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## Tclem

Molokai said:


> That will make excellent knives. Try to ht-em like W2 steel.
> I just finished one from old file. Try to leave some pattern on top of grind, and ricasso. If you like that.


I guess I'll anneal them to work with them ? So you saying to treat them as W-2 steel ?


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## Molokai

Anneal them and yes, try with w2


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## Tclem

Ok the names in these files are 
Vallorbe
Smooth
Heller
Heller
Nicholas
Am??????
Son-Newton


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## Brink

Englishtown, NJ?


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## Tclem

Brink said:


> Englishtown, NJ?


Somewhere up there. He has been down here for 15 years I guess


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## Wildthings

Tony has fallen over the edge and is dropping way down the black hole out of sight!!

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 3


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## robert flynt

To me, the second cut and rasps files make the most attractive knives. I don't find the fine tooth file knives are as attractive.


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## Tclem

robert flynt said:


> To me, the second cut and rasps files make the most attractive knives. I don't find the fine tooth file knives are as attractive.


Well maybe if I get down that way after the first of the year you can show me which ones and the best way to use them


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## Strider

Hold yer horses! Files are superb for knife making, but sadly, only older ones will be good. The new ones tend to be cheap low carbon steel, surface hardened or case hardened (there is a difference), so it is a lottery. Yes, most likely they are W1, W2, or similar high carbon tool steels. By being high carbon steels, they tend to be very forgiving, but mind in which way you harden them- some may crack in water, other may not harden in oil- test pieces made out of cut-outs, use them! :)
But whichever steel they are from, don't cut them out too hastly on the plasma, it will ruin 1cm or more around the cut. Better choice is to anneal them properly. Heat 'em up in a gas or coal furnace, or in a pitfire till they're red hot and then let them cool with the furnace/pit fire overnight. After that, they'll be soft like balsa wood! It saves you the time, belts and the grinding/cutting discs!

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 2


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## Tclem

Strider said:


> Hold yer horses! Files are superb for knife making, but sadly, only older ones will be good. The new ones tend to be cheap low carbon steel, surface hardened or case hardened (there is a difference), so it is a lottery. Yes, most likely they are W1, W2, or similar high carbon tool steels. By being high carbon steels, they tend to be very forgiving, but mind in which way you harden them- some may crack in water, other may not harden in oil- test pieces made out of cut-outs, use them! :)
> But whichever steel they are from, don't cut them out too hastly on the plasma, it will ruin 1cm or more around the cut. Better choice is to anneal them properly. Heat 'em up in a gas or coal furnace, or in a pitfire till they're red hot and then let them cool with the furnace/pit fire overnight. After that, they'll be soft like balsa wood! It saves you the time, belts and the grinding/cutting discs!


I plan to just use the plasma on my 1084 stuff for now and work with these after Christmas or something. One of them is a cutting file that I may fool with trying to put a bevel on it like it is. If I mess it up I will just go get more from him. Lol


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## Strider

Of course! I never told you not to, buth rather to! :D I have received a nice plate of 4mm 1075. Great steel, you'll have fun with it, I doubt not. Great for big knives and machetes.
Dammit, wish one could make a water jet cutter- that's the best! All I cut is myself lol!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## robert flynt

Tclem said:


> I plan to just use the plasma on my 1084 stuff for now and work with these after Christmas or something. One of them is a cutting file that I may fool with trying to put a bevel on it like it is. If I mess it up I will just go get more from him. Lol


If you do not anneal it before profiling and grinding it you will have to draw it back to the proper hardness in your oven. If you don't do this it will be to hard and brittle. What Loris is sawing about using the plasma cutter on the saw blade is, it will burn the carbon out of the steel where the cut was made and the steel will air harden about a 1/4 inch in. All way leave about that much to grind away, so you will have good steel.


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## robert flynt

He is also right about the files now days. If it is case hardened you will will have to anneal and re heat treat it .and test it to see if it is any good


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## Strider

Listen to Mr. Flynt, he knows his trade! Aaaages of experience! Wait...what...I didn't call you old just now, did I? In my defence, knifemakers are like wine- age makes them better! And forgetful...senile...bumpy too :D 
I think that the cut steel hardens due to small surface area being heated rapidly and then its heath being drawn by the cold steel from the back, not by air itself. I think...


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## Woodman

I used to get dozens of farrier rasps from a guy who worked at the NJ horse tracks. I would make hidden tang knives from them and they sold as fast as I could make them. This drop point style was the best seller. This is one I put in Chestnut Oak. I would let the Oak saplings dry for 9 months and then remove all bark that wasn't locked onto the sapwood real tightly. I cut saplings that are growing under much larger trees and they are sun-starved so they can have 15 or more annual rings per inch which is pretty dense. 
I wish I could say I made the sheath but I'm not that talented, I send them to a real leatherworker in SC for a first class sheath.
The rasp you have in the photo will make some dandy looking knives after the teeth are ground flat. Find a local waterjet shop to do some cold cutting for you and skip all the needless work and time.
http://i594.Rule #2/albums/tt28/lakeridge3/PugsA1Sheaths002.jpg

Reactions: EyeCandy! 4 | Way Cool 3


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## Tclem

robert flynt said:


> He is also right about the files now days. If it is case hardened you will will have to anneal and re heat treat it .and test it to see if it is any good


Yeah I figure these are all hard as can be. A couple are already tapered down on one edge and I may try just putting a cutting edge on those two files. They taped down to 1/16" or there about


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## Strider

That's always a good idea. But, as it goes, the old technology has the upper hand- rough stone wheel grinder, water cooled by a passing stream. No heat whatsoever from the grinding friction. I've never seen a sufficiently coold belt grinder. That would be like a conveyer belt knife production, no HT cycles, only grinding and sharpening


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## Tclem

Strider said:


> That's always a good idea. But, as it goes, the old technology has the upper hand- rough stone wheel grinder, water cooled by a passing stream. No heat whatsoever from the grinding friction. I've never seen a sufficiently coold belt grinder. That would be like a conveyer belt knife production, no HT cycles, only grinding and sharpening


Domyou think I could put a secondary bevel on the two that taper to a 1/16" with my belt sander then ?


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## Strider

You can, of course, yes, but beware of overheating. Cool the knife longer and more times than you hold it on the belt. Otherwise it's a matter of hand dexterity, which you already have, judging by your recent cutting edge masterpieces I am not jealous of, not at all, not one bit... I think you might sharpen a mosquito's probe for...probing...people...if you go on like this!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Tclem

Strider said:


> You can, of course, yes, but beware of overheating. Cool the knife longer and more times than you hold it on the belt. Otherwise it's a matter of hand dexterity, which you already have, judging by your recent cutting edge masterpieces I am not jealous of, not at all, not one bit... I think you might sharpen a mosquito's probe for...probing...people...if you go on like this!


Thanks. I will work on it. If I mess it up then I will go get more files. Lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## robert flynt

Strider said:


> Listen to Mr. Flynt, he knows his trade! Aaaages of experience! Wait...what...I didn't call you old just now, did I? In my defence, knifemakers are like wine- age makes them better! And forgetful...senile...bumpy too :D
> I think that the cut steel hardens due to small surface area being heated rapidly and then its heath being drawn by the cold steel from the back, not by air itself. I think...


You forgot to mention Grumpy, vengeful and mean and your probably right about the heat rapidly migrating to the colder steel.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## El Guapo

All right, good buddy! I sniped a beauty of a call from you while you were in church praying for my wayward soul, but I told you I'd make it up to you. This should help you in your knife making. Two really old Nicholson files (heavy as the sin in @manbuckwal 's heart), one really old Atkins file (heavy as a the girls left at the bar at closin' time), and some cheap-o wood taking up space in the shop (amboyna, african sumac burl, redwood burl, amazon rosewood, and of course coco). The coco has been oxidized, but had great colors when I first cut it!

Reactions: EyeCandy! 2 | Funny 3


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## ironman123

I got some new Nicholson files the other day...made in Mexico.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tclem

El Guapo said:


> All right, good buddy! I sniped a beauty of a call from you while you were in church praying for my wayward soul, but I told you I'd make it up to you. This should help you in your knife making. Two really old Nicholson files (heavy as the sin in @manbuckwal 's heart), one really old Atkins file (heavy as a the girls left at the bar at closin' time), and some cheap-o wood taking up space in the shop (amboyna, african sumac burl, redwood burl, amazon rosewood, and of course coco). The coco has been oxidized, but had great colors when I first cut it!
> 
> View attachment 93012
> View attachment 93013


Holy moly let's do another auction. Man I have been cussing you for a week but now you are my best friend besides @SENC but #2 is good. Guess I'll have to put some coco on a knife for you.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## El Guapo

One of the pieces of redwood burl didn't fit, but everything else _should_ make it to you. We'll see... I'll be buying insurance!


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## Tclem

El Guapo said:


> One of the pieces of redwood burl didn't fit, but everything else _should_ make it to you. We'll see... I'll be buying insurance!


Well now I'm getting half a box. I'm only going to put one scale on your knife for that JACK

Reactions: Funny 8


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## El Guapo

HAHA, that actually made me laugh out loud!

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Strider

Hahhaha made me spit my cereal! Nice comeback lol!
You can't mess up HT if you're constantly cooling for that matter...you can mess up the design and all but that's about it. Should the steel change colors during grinding, you probably did :D Otherwise it's ok. Depending on purpose the knives (or cleavers) you're making, you have oi temper them in a oven for two hours (once or two times for one hour) at 190-210 C. The higher the temperature, the more HRC you kick out, resulting in lower edge retention (not THAT much), but get, in account, more toughness...That temperature should get it straw gold. Anything pass that, going to blue color, would more likely resemble a machete- soft but veeery flexible. You might differentially temper it with a torch to the back. You'll see the nice color range going towards the edge, and when the edge gets straw or gold, that's it. You will have a springy, tough tool with a sharp edge that retains.





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

Reactions: Like 1 | Great Post 1 | Informative 2


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## Strider

But have in mind if you use the torch, everything, well, anything. must go slowly and gradually. Picture one of forum's old farts waking up and doing push-ups and pull-ups, or taking a sprint run immediately- they'd fall apart unlike a Lada Niva which is forever!  Or a nice lady jumping a bloke in the back alley to hump and ride him before he knows what's going on...it's over in a blink of an eye! Well, not everyone's that lucky...but you get it where I'm going to

Reactions: Funny 1 | Way Cool 1


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## robert flynt

Strider said:


> But have in mind if you use the torch, everything, well, anything. must go slowly and gradually. Picture one of forum's old farts waking up and doing push-ups and pull-ups, or taking a sprint run immediately- they'd fall apart unlike a Lada Niva which is forever!  Or a nice lady jumping a bloke in the back alley to hump and ride him before he knows what's going on...it's over in a blink of an eye! Well, not everyone's that lucky...but you get it where I'm going to


What is this, pick on old folks week?????


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## robert flynt

Strider said:


> Hahhaha made me spit my cereal! Nice comeback lol!
> You can't mess up HT if you're constantly cooling for that matter...you can mess up the design and all but that's about it. Should the steel change colors during grinding, you probably did :D Otherwise it's ok. Depending on purpose the knives (or cleavers) you're making, you have oi temper them in a oven for two hours (once or two times for one hour) at 190-210 C. The higher the temperature, the more HRC you kick out, resulting in lower edge retention (not THAT much), but get, in account, more toughness...That temperature should get it straw gold. Anything pass that, going to blue color, would more likely resemble a machete- soft but veeery flexible. You might differentially temper it with a torch to the back. You'll see the nice color range going towards the edge, and when the edge gets straw or gold, that's it. You will have a springy, tough tool with a sharp edge that retains.
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http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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I prefer clay wrapping the spine then heat treating. I have a friend who wraps, from the edge 1/2 way up the blade, in 1/8" lead put the lead wrapped part of the edge in a vice then draws the spine with a torch. The lead serves as a heat sink to keep the edge from overheating. Have another friend who takes one of the soft fire bricks bores a 1 1/2" hole in one end almost to the other end. Then bores a hole through the side about 1/4 down the brick to place his propane torch in. With the fire brick laying narrow side up he has a slot cut all the way in to the 1 1/2 inch hole about 1/2 way down the brick. With red heat coming out of the slot he places the blade spine in the slot and moves it back and forth, watching the color move up the blade toward the edge. when the edge gets to the 350 to 400 degree color he removes it and cools it.


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## robert flynt

I like to clay wrap the spine of my blades and then heat treat. Have a friend who after heat treat the blade he wrap the edge about half way toward the spine with lead. He then places the lead wrapped part in a vice and uses a torch to draw the spine with the lead serving as a heat sink. Another friend has a one fire forge he made from a soft (white) fire brick. He has 1 1/2" hole bored from one end almost to the other end. With the brick laying on the narrow side a hole is drilled through the wide side to the 1 1/2 hole about 1/4 down from the mouth of the hole where a propane torch is placed. With the narrow side up a slot is cut across the brick to the the 1 1/2" hole. With red heat coming out the slot he slides the blade, spine up, back and forth in the slot, watching the color run up toward the edge and cooling it when the color is right.


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## El Guapo

If you're using a torch, hold the steel in your off hand so you can tell how hot it is getting.

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Tclem

robert flynt said:


> I like to clay wrap the spine of my blades and then heat treat. Have a friend who after heat treat the blade he wrap the edge about half way toward the spine with lead. He then places the lead wrapped part in a vice and uses a torch to draw the spine with the lead serving as a heat sink. Another friend has a one fire forge he made from a soft (white) fire brick. He has 1 1/2" hole bored from one end almost to the other end. With the brick laying on the narrow side a hole is drilled through the wide side to the 1 1/2 hole about 1/4 down from the mouth of the hole where a propane torch is placed. With the narrow side up a slot is cut across the brick to the the 1 1/2" hole. With red heat coming out the slot he slides the blade, spine up, back and forth in the slot, watching the color run up toward the edge and cooling it when the color is right.


We know you are lying because you keep saying you have a FRIEND. Lol

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Strider

Always! You consider yourself an old fart? :p

Oooh, differential temper is easy, but differential hardening is a totally different manner... To explain to the common folk- A special mix of clay is added to the spine in a desired pattern, forming a slower heated layer, and more importantly, more slowly cooled than the rest, thus not being able to harden during a quench, in turn acting like a spring. Such blades don't have to be tempered, but should, as the edge stays to hard and brittle. On some steels, a nice visual detail occurs- the hamon- a cloudy line, separating the marensitic phase (hardened) and the pearlite steel phase (soft).
But other than reading and watching about it, I have no experience. I've heard about silicone sprays substituting the traditional clay, a well kept ingredient secret.
Or you can, being a plain, totally non mysterious Westener ( :D ) quench only the edge in water/oil. Air cooled soft spine and a quenched hard edge result in the same manner. But, like knees and hips of the...elder gents here, cracks may occur. That's why one should rest well and long, or interrupt the quench- taking out and quickly dipping the edge again.
That's a nice idea Mr.Flynt- referring to you as a liar and a local perpetrator! You came up as you were typing! :D

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## robert flynt

Tclem said:


> We know you are lying because you keep saying you have a FRIEND. Lol


Remember, old and treachery will out do youth and enthusiasm!! Remember that the next time you have a question, you might get a wrong answer!

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## Tclem

robert flynt said:


> Remember, old and treachery will out do youth and enthusiasm!! Remember that the next time you have a question, you might get a wrong answer!


Ok I change my mind I am your friend

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## robert flynt

Strider said:


> Always! You consider yourself an old fart? :p
> 
> Oooh, differential temper is easy, but differential hardening is a totally different manner... To explain to the common folk- A special mix of clay is added to the spine in a desired pattern, forming a slower heated, and more importantly, cooled than the rest, thus not being able to harden during a quench, in turn acting like a pring. Such blades don't have to be tempered, but should, as the edge stays to hard and brittle. On some steels, a nice visual detail occures- the hamon- a cloudy line, separating the marensitic fase(hardened) and he pearlite steel fase (soft).
> But other than reading and watchimdg about it, I have no experience. I've heard about silicone sprays substituting the traditional clay, a well kept ingridient secret.
> Or you can, being a plain, totally non misterious Westener ( :D ) quench only the edge in water/oil. Air cooled soft spine and a quenched hard edge result in the same manner. But, like knees and hips of the...elder gents here, crack may occure. That's why one should rest well and log, or interupt the quench- taking out and quickly dipping the edge again.
> That's a nice idea Mr.Flynt- refering to you as a liar and a local perpetrator! You came up as you were typing! :D


Yes, since I am 70 years old, I am starting to consider my self old. My body is telling me so. 
I do have an edge quench set up, consisting of a pan for the oil and a rack in the pan, which keeps the blade from going to deep in the oil but I only use it out side because of oil catches fire and smokes up every thing. with the same set up you can also use water and use oxy./act. torch. After hardening the blade you place the edge in the water and heat the spine with the the torch to draw some of the hardness out then let it air cool. This is like the clay wrap is not so stressful to the blade as the edge quench. 52100 is one of the steels that will crack with the clay wrap or edge quench, it is best to draw some of the hardness out with a torch and heat sink. If you know a company that does boiler repair, get some the brick morter from them. I have discovered , if you thin it down with water it great for differential hardening,as with clay, though you must let it dry well first or it will bubble up if it has moisture in it. You can also use satanite refractory mixed with water.


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## robert flynt

Tclem said:


> Ok I change my mind I am your friend


Thought so!!

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## Tclem

robert flynt said:


> Yes, since I am 70 years old, I am starting to consider my self old. My body is telling me so.
> I do have an edge quench set up, consisting of a pan for the oil and a rack in the pan, which keeps the blade from going to deep in the oil but I only use it out side because of oil catches fire and smokes up every thing. with the same set up you can also use water and use oxy./act. torch. After hardening the blade you place the edge in the water and heat the spine with the the torch to draw some of the hardness out then let it air cool. This is like the clay wrap is not so stressful to the blade as the edge quench. 52100 is one of the steels that will crack with the clay wrap or edge quench, it is best to draw some of the hardness out with a torch and heat sink. If you know a company that does boiler repair, get some the brick morter from them. I have discovered , if you thin it down with water it great for differential hardening,as with clay, though you must let it dry well first or it will bubble up if it has moisture in it. You can also use satanite refractory mixed with water.


Can I use a mapp gas torch for the draw back on the spine


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## Strider

Yes you can, even better as it is less hot than oxy/act. torch. For that purpose I even used that hot fan- the hair dryer thingy intended to remove facades. 
Mr. Flynt, I have been a witness to the process of heating the spine while the edge is submerged...the result was a nice long crack. Heating was too fast. I remember seeing a khukri making video where a guy made the same thing, submerging the tool while heating the exposed spine, which was held in a tank with a pair of c clamps. Same thing, a crack. So, yes, do it slowly! The same guy tried it with a blade submerged in wet ash and sand. Better results. No cracks. 
Boiler men you say? I will look into it! Some of the things I've heard is the asphalt clay when it's cut, then a mixture of finely ground sand, carbon dust and borax. Or such...
Seventy?! Boy, I would say 56 at most! :P (we are friends too)


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## Kevin

I wish you would change the title to something else. I keep seeing "Flies" in the New Posts and I hate flies.

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## robert flynt

Tclem said:


> Can I use a mapp gas torch for the draw back on the spine


Yes you can but you must keep the edge from going beyond the straw color because those type torches do not heat as fast there is more chance to much heat will run toward the edge. If you look at the color of Loris' blade that is the color you want to get the blade spine to but you must watch the edge color so as not to over heat it. To be safe, for now, you might consider using the lead wrap to keep from over heating the edge and angle the torch upward.

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## robert flynt

Kevin said:


> I wish you would change the title to something else. I keep seeing "Flies" in the New Posts and I hate flies.


That is just floaters your seeing or viscous detachment in your eyeball. Sorry Kevin I couldn't help myself.

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## robert flynt

Strider said:


> Yes you can, even better as it is less hot than oxy/act. torch. For that purpose I even used that hot fan- the hair dryer thingy intended to remove facades.
> Mr. Flynt, I have been a witness to the process of heating the spine while the edge is submerged...the result was a nice long crack. Heating was too fast. I remember seeing a khukri making video where a guy made the same thing, submerging the tool while heating the exposed spine, which was held in a tank with a pair of c clamps. Same thing, a crack. So, yes, do it slowly! The same guy tried it with a blade submerged in wet ash and sand. Better results. No cracks.
> Boiler men you say? I will look into it! Some of the things I've heard is the asphalt clay when it's cut, then a mixture of finely ground sand, carbon dust and borax. Or such...
> Seventy?! Boy, I would say 56 at most! :P (we are friends too)


When I saw a blade smith FRIEND do it he used a shallow pan of water so the water got very hot and boiled around the blade which did not allow the edge to stay cold. To big a temp. difference will cause it to crack. The fire brick morter I have is very fine which makes it easy to thin down. When I plunge the blade it the oil the morter usually fall off after it does its job

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## Strider

Holly...turd! The boiling water is a revelation to me! I had the answer in front of my own eyes, but never looked at it that way. Yes, you are right, the steel starts to temper just above 160C and no way it would ruin a blade even if it passes the boiling point! 
When quenching, I'll try the exact same thing, preheating water to lower the chances of cracking! This post gave me cancer!
Now, I recall a quenching method not used by any knifemaker I've spoken to. It's called martempering. A canister is filled with liquid and heated to some point above 100C, depending on steel type. Generally, mortally toxic cyanide salts are used (hence my problem with the task), but can be substituted by molten metal, common salts or even fine ground sand (I tried that one, with rather good results). It removes ANY possibilities of warping and cracking. 
Martempering is used to produce
martensite without developing the
high stresses that usually
accompany its formation.
There is a whole rulebook about it, and you've opened that page for me again. 
I would make the traditional clay, but I have to find the recipe again.


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