# Considering a Sawmill



## justturnin (Aug 14, 2013)

So a buddy of mine just purchased about 20 acres of land to build their home on. On his property he has a large Elm that has died along with an assortment of other trees that have died due to the recent drought. He also said he had 5-6 piles of downed trees for the taking. I told him if I had a mill I would be all over it, but I DON'T:fit:

So, anyway, I bring my dilemma to mama and I bet you can guess what she said. "Well, if you can make you money back to pay for the mill go for it" I know right, I didn't see that coming either. 

So, my question. besides a sawmill what else do I need? I see starter sawmills for about $3k but figured I would likely end up with some ad-on's so I figure about $5k. Then what? How to move the logs to the mill? I figured a Canthook to roll them up to it but I need to get them their first. No way mama is going to go for a tractor too.

If anyone could give me a quick rundown of what all I need to make this work and a real world idea of startup costs it would be appreciated. 

What I figure so far:
Mill (duhh)
Way to move the wood
Storage for the wood
Trailer to move the wood


How long would it take before I could sell the wood? And what does it typically go for? I figure most would be Oak, Elm, Pine, Sweetgum with the possibility of some Pecan, Sycamore, Ash. These are not very exciting woods so would it be worth investing in a mill for this? The idea of owning a mill is exciting but it's got to pay for itself pretty quick. 

Am I a dreamer?


----------



## jimmyjames (Aug 14, 2013)

You'll be hard pressed to make money on milling straight grain lumber and selling it, you'll make your money at first milling other peoples wood and then eventually you'll get more logs than you'll know what to do with, then you can mill and sell wood on top of milling others lumber. The guy I just had mill my wood paid for his mill in a little over a year milling other peoples wood.


----------



## justturnin (Aug 14, 2013)

Dang, that is awesome. Only a year? But that just brings a new issue. I would need a place I could set up permanently to do that. Maybe I will just blow it off and just go cut all the crotches and burls I can get my hands on....... I want a mill pretty bad but may not be in the cards just yet.

Maybe I should think smaller like a CSM instead. I just found plans for one using a 4 stroke motor that can be built for $400.


----------



## gvwp (Aug 14, 2013)

If you are going to mill straight lumber you will find it difficult to sell unless its kiln dried. Pine lumber is difficult to make any money on. I'm not sure why because if you got to your local Menards or Lowes its outrageous but its a difficult sale in our area. The best way to make money is to find a narrow market in your area and fill it. This can be hobby lumber, different or rarely available sizes including thick or thin lumber or blocks or any other special wood that is not readily available. Custom sawing can make money as well but you will need a way to move your mill to the logs or a way to move the logs to the mill. It sounds like your projected price of 3-5 thousand dollars that your mill will not have a trailer or easily be portable behind a pick up. Mills of this size are a great asset for the hobby but not a production mill by any means and sawing any amount over a couple logs still requires a certain amount of labor.


----------



## SDB777 (Aug 15, 2013)

My mill paid for itself in less then a month. YMMV.....

Feel free to look around my website, there is a 'harvesting blog' thing in there and you can get a good idea about how I move the logs around without machinery. And if that isn't enough info for ya, feel free to PM me and we can swap phone info. And we can talk all day about the stuff(or at least until the wife tells me to get off the phone). 




Scott (its all about making mama happy) B


----------



## justturnin (Aug 15, 2013)

SDB777 said:


> My mill paid for itself in less then a month. YMMV.....
> 
> Feel free to look around my website, there is a 'harvesting blog' thing in there and you can get a good idea about how I move the logs around without machinery. And if that isn't enough info for ya, feel free to PM me and we can swap phone info. And we can talk all day about the stuff(or at least until the wife tells me to get off the phone).
> 
> ...



WOW a month?!!!!! Did you buy it on sale 90% off? I see you had what I was planing, lots of wood on the ground waiting. I am going to walk the property and look at the trees and get a feel for whats there. If it is a lot of Oak I may have to do it and quarter saw it all up. There is a WM LT40 not far from me w/ a loader and a tractor for $10k. Maybe I can foot that....... Would have to go to the bank and get a loan for it though.


----------



## justturnin (Aug 15, 2013)

gvwp said:


> If you are going to mill straight lumber you will find it difficult to sell unless its kiln dried. Pine lumber is difficult to make any money on. I'm not sure why because if you got to your local Menards or Lowes its outrageous but its a difficult sale in our area. The best way to make money is to find a narrow market in your area and fill it. This can be hobby lumber, different or rarely available sizes including thick or thin lumber or blocks or any other special wood that is not readily available. Custom sawing can make money as well but you will need a way to move your mill to the logs or a way to move the logs to the mill. It sounds like your projected price of 3-5 thousand dollars that your mill will not have a trailer or easily be portable behind a pick up. Mills of this size are a great asset for the hobby but not a production mill by any means and sawing any amount over a couple logs still requires a certain amount of labor.




I thought about the mill being small. My thoughts were along the lines of, if I can mill enough to pay it off then mill enough for an upgrade I could sell the small mill if I continue but if I discover it is not for me at all I can pay off the mill then sell it. and have made a little $$ or not be out that much money. I was thinking it would be cool to mill a bunch of Hardwood Flooring stock out of the Oak and Elm or paneling. 

I still need a place to put it.


----------



## rdnkmedic (Aug 15, 2013)

I've watched several of Scott B's videos and he does a lot of work with not a lot of heavy equipment. Tractors make it easier but it can be done without. You just have to work smarter, not harder. You can always grow into a bigger operation if need be. JMHO.


----------



## Mike1950 (Aug 15, 2013)

GVMP's point of log transport is key- get a mill that is mobile- leave the sawdust and scrap in the woods. Transport of mill on wheels and milled boards is much easier then log transport. Use search tempest to search large area for used mill.


----------



## jimmyjames (Aug 15, 2013)

Mike1950 said:


> GVMP's point of log transport is key- get a mill that is mobile- leave the sawdust and scrap in the woods. Transport of mill on wheels and milled boards is much easier then log transport. Use search tempest to search large area for used mill.




I agree, milling is the easy part, acquiring and moving logs is the biggest chore


----------



## justturnin (Aug 15, 2013)

Yea, I was figuring the Trailer kit would be the main upgrade on the mill bringing the smaller mill to $5k. I am seeing some decent mills for +$7500 but they are in the great white north so shipping may end up being a bear or gas and time to pick it up.


----------



## Treecycle Hardwoods (Aug 15, 2013)

justturnin said:


> SDB777 said:
> 
> 
> > My mill paid for itself in less then a month. YMMV.....
> ...



Going into debt isn't good but a deal like this will give you the most bang for your buck! Buying a used mill that was recently in operation is a good way to get an upgrade. Woodmizer is great about helping used owners of their mills. 

Having a skid loader or tractor is a big deal. When I first starting milling I completely underestimated the effort needed to move & transport logs. Even now I focus more on the log aspect than milling. Logs are big and heavy (knock on wood) but I haven't had an accident yet. I can't say enough about how important good moving equipment is for safety and time savings. Even if you plan on going the portable rout and going into the woods or to a customers property having a way to get the logs to the mill efficiently and safely is very important.


----------



## Kevin (Aug 15, 2013)

justturnin said:


> ...There is a WM LT40 not far from me w/ a loader and a tractor for $10k. ...



Is it manual or hydraulic? It *sounds* like a heck of a deal if it's in good shape, is hydraulic, and the loader works even half ass. Whatever you do - don't go in with the idea you can earn enough to pay everything back in a single month. Just get that out of your head completely. 

On the flipside, 10K is not much money to earn if you have a niche market ready to service. But going into debt is a major decision so weigh it carefully. You'll have an angel on one shoulder and a demon on the other so do like Yogi says:

_When you come to a fork in the road, take it. 
_
:lolol:


----------



## jimmyjames (Aug 15, 2013)

Treecycle Hardwoods said:


> justturnin said:
> 
> 
> > SDB777 said:
> ...




The only other alternative to moving logs is getting a lot of logs from somewhere that has equipment to load them, here I can get a side dump semi for $80 an hour, fill the trailer with 5-10,000 feet of logs depending on the diameter of them and have them dropped off. Costs me about $160-$240 for a load. Which is far cheaper than I could haul them around with a pickup and a trailer, the truck just side dumps them right on the ground but then you'd need equipment or a couple strong guys with can't hooks to roll them around which is another danger in itself, moving logs with can't hooks can be done though. 

Looking at small mills in the $5k price range are not meant for production and are a lot of work without any hydraulic assist like log roller, log lift etc and milling 1000 feet of boards on it would be one heck of a chore especially by yourself. Plus smaller mills aren't built for the abuse, think of it as using a $1000 riding mower for a lawn service using it to now lawns every day all summer, by the end of summer you'd have to throw it away because it would be so wore out it would cost more to fix it than another $1000 mower would cost.


----------



## Treecycle Hardwoods (Aug 15, 2013)

I have never used the a side dump semi trailer but I have gotten dump trucks full of logs. I once had a custom milling job where a guy brought me 6 dump trucks full of walnut logs in a day. I routinely get logs delivered and dumped at my mill. Some times it is one a week and sometimes it is 5 or 6. I would never try to unravel a pile of logs by hand. To much work and way unsafe! The smallest logs I try to mill are around 12" at 10 feet long that is 4-600 lbs. Having one of those logs fall on your leg from even 2 feet would be a trip the ER for a cast. A 20" log would be 4-5x that weight. Unless you are super man moving logs that way is not a good idea. If you are lucky enough that every delivered dumped log will lay flat on the ground you still risk back and shoulder injuries when moving logs that big by hand. I would add that using a manual mill you will run the same back and shoulder injury risks so getting a mill that can turn and level your logs is worthy of looking into.


----------



## justturnin (Aug 15, 2013)

I mixed up my ads. there is a WM LT30 for $10k w/ a new 18hp Kohler, no Hydro.

The Mill/Tractor, Skidsteer is $12k and the Mill is a 2010 LM1 Logmaster also w/ no hydro

http://houston.craigslist.org/grd/3999674811.html

I know I can't recoup my money in a month, that could only come by the grace of God. Even a year your be way more that expected. 

For Moving the wood I was thinking log arch and a 4 wheeler for now or a Log Arch Winch combo to pull the trees out if need be. Most of what I would likely be getting would be urban forestry. CL has tons of ads from folks taking trees out offering them up. If I could catch them and get them to drop it in 8-10" sections that I could load and dump where I set up it would be great. I think that would be the best route for getting a variety of woods. Most of the good trees are ornamental and folks don't cut them down but even getting some oak and quartersawing it would be awesome. If I could get my hands on some Cedar I could build my Arbor and be able to make more off that because of wood I did not have to buy to do it.

Maybe just dreaming, I would have to get a loan to do this and that I do not want right now.....but if I could find a niche to fill that would be great. I am just not that involved in the Wood working community to find it.... Besides my niche is cast call blanks....right?


----------



## Treecycle Hardwoods (Aug 15, 2013)

That's a deal!! A mill, tractor, and skid loader for 12K with some logs. Plus the mills is portable! If you have a way to inspect the equipment with an experienced mechanic (or if you have the exp to do it) I would look over the skid loader well to see what if any repairs need to be made and include those repairs in you budget. The tractor would be great to get stuff drug out of the woods. While the mill is manual it is a start and it looks to be in really good shape as well.


----------



## jimmyjames (Aug 15, 2013)

Treecycle Hardwoods said:


> I have never used the a side dump semi trailer but I have gotten dump trucks full of logs. I once had a custom milling job where a guy brought me 6 dump trucks full of walnut logs in a day. I routinely get logs delivered and dumped at my mill. Some times it is one a week and sometimes it is 5 or 6. I would never try to unravel a pile of logs by hand. To much work and way unsafe! The smallest logs I try to mill are around 12" at 10 feet long that is 4-600 lbs. Having one of those logs fall on your leg from even 2 feet would be a trip the ER for a cast. A 20" log would be 4-5x that weight. Unless you are super man moving logs that way is not a good idea. If you are lucky enough that every delivered dumped log will lay flat on the ground you still risk back and shoulder injuries when moving logs that big by hand. I would add that using a manual mill you will run the same back and shoulder injury risks so getting a mill that can turn and level your logs is worthy of looking into.



moving logs with a cant hook has been done for centuries, thats how all logs used to be moved, mules and cant hooks.... all of them. You can easily move round logs with a cant hook with no problems, im not talking about moving 60"+ diameter monsters, im talking about logs that will fit in that $5k mill. I can move 20"x10' long logs all day long with a cant hook if i had too, but i dont since we have a tractor already. There are dangers involved but you dont stand in a pinch point and attempt to move the log and expect not too get hurt, you work safe and smart. Im not recomending moving 10,000 feet of logs with a cant hook but with a tiny mill youd be hard pressed to have to move 3 logs in an entire day of milling


----------



## Treecycle Hardwoods (Aug 15, 2013)

jimmyjames said:


> Treecycle Hardwoods said:
> 
> 
> > I have never used the a side dump semi trailer but I have gotten dump trucks full of logs. I once had a custom milling job where a guy brought me 6 dump trucks full of walnut logs in a day. I routinely get logs delivered and dumped at my mill. Some times it is one a week and sometimes it is 5 or 6. I would never try to unravel a pile of logs by hand. To much work and way unsafe! The smallest logs I try to mill are around 12" at 10 feet long that is 4-600 lbs. Having one of those logs fall on your leg from even 2 feet would be a trip the ER for a cast. A 20" log would be 4-5x that weight. Unless you are super man moving logs that way is not a good idea. If you are lucky enough that every delivered dumped log will lay flat on the ground you still risk back and shoulder injuries when moving logs that big by hand. I would add that using a manual mill you will run the same back and shoulder injury risks so getting a mill that can turn and level your logs is worthy of looking into.
> ...



I agree with you Jimmy. It can be done and has been done. Many loggers have been severly injured or killed over the years and logging/milling still remains a dangerous profession today. I choose to abstain from that type of activity and try to look for safer ways of handling logs so I can enjoy the process of milling and not regret a bad decision from my hospital bed. Even the most well laid plans can go bad. Even if the plans go well and everyone remains safe Wrasslin logs is tiring so I let the machines do that for me. Playing pick up sticks with logs is not nearly as fun as milling them.


----------



## gvwp (Aug 15, 2013)

I used a dump trailer for 3 years and it worked fine but it was hard on the trailer. Logs sometimes would lock in and then when you went to dump they would catch and bend the sides or drop out sideways and drop on the fenders. I wore out a 7 X 14' dump trailer but it got the job done. I have gone to flat trailers for hauling. A tractor is nice but if you just do a couple logs a day some strong help and a cant hook get the job done.


----------



## SDB777 (Aug 16, 2013)

justturnin said:


> SDB777 said:
> 
> 
> > My mill paid for itself in less then a month. YMMV.....
> ...



Certainly wasn't a 90% off thing! I actually took a day and went to BassPro in Springfield(keep mama happy thing), and then drove over and picked the mill up off I-44 exit #44 in Mt. Vernon. Even had a steak dinner on the way home!!
Assembled the mill the next morning, and figured everything out. Certainly makes chainsaw milling a thing of the past around here(unless the log is too big to get out of the woods, or onto the trailer). The learning curve is pretty quick on a band mill...especially a manual mill. And everything is manual....

Three days after I had the mill assembled, I milled seven pecan log crotches that were loaded with super thin line spalting!(and some of the 'regular' grained wood was up to my standards also) Advertised on another place, and sold the whole lot to a bigger vendor(this is just before the launch of my website). It took approximately nine days to 'process all the wood' and then ship it.
I can say it doesn't take long to make a big pile of pen blanks that are four foot long with a bandsaw mill. The hard part is moving the 250-300 pound crotches into position on the mill! And handling the flitches multiple times off, and then back onto the mill for re-cutting is tiring. But it is cheaper then a membership to a local gym, and the workout....well roll a log off the backside of the mill(the bars weren't in place), that will only happen once!
In fact, the total amount of blanks sold numbered over 1300, and there is no way I'd think about doing something like that again if I didn't have the mill!
Did I get lucky? You bet, I cut open a piece of wood that had 'cha-ching' written all over it. Found a buyer really quick. And all the stars lined up(felt like a nineteen year old kid those days, and I often look back and smile)!!!!



Fast forward to today....

I have done sawyer work for a few people. Maybe in the 2,500bFt range during the first year, and maybe 6,750bFt so far this year. All hardwood sawing at $0.345/boardfoot(probably too cheap for some looking). But having fun and then having that fun 'paid for' is great! I offer great deals and will custom cut for people(where some people have run into problems finding that elsewhere).
I will begin cutting the timber for my 'building over the mill' today. Cost to mill....my time and a little gasoline, water, and enjoyment!



Would I do it again?
You bet, I would still buy a 'small manual mill' though. I have not even come close enough to adding up all the stuff sold to pay for a large hydraulic mill. And this size fits nice into the backyard(with no complaints from the neighbors)! The small 10HP B&S motor has milled 20" wide flitches of dried Hickory and White Oak without issue(ok, I will clarify here....you can't just 'plow through it' at high speed), and the engine is just as quiet as a riding lawn mower!!
So stop trying to 'justify it' and ask for forgiveness once it is sitting in the yard! Your better half will find it useful to pay for an upcoming vacation.....of course, the better half probably won't help you move those logs







Scott (hard work only kills the lazy people) B


----------



## justturnin (Aug 16, 2013)

That is awesome. I am going to try to walk the property tomorrow with him. From their I will have to make a hard decision. More Debt or not. My wife and I have been struggling to pay off debt from when we were younger. My cast blanks have been helping but I need to step that up a notch. Figured a small mill could do it. I don't foresee me getting into production right away. I would not feel right and would probably fail. I need to learn the ropes and get a feel for things. Around here I lack access to nicer woods like Maples, Walnuts, Cherry and so on. I live in the pine belt with the occasional non-pine/Oak.


----------



## SDB777 (Aug 16, 2013)

Craigslist will be your friend. Search 'tree', 'firewood you cut', 'storm damage' and then use the "free stuff" section. You will be surprised how many people want their trees cut for them. 


Scott (sweat equity) B


----------



## justturnin (Aug 16, 2013)

Ohh I watch it. I have a post on my local CL from someone about to take 2 Hickory's down. If I had a mill I would be setting up shop on their land.


----------



## Wildthings (Aug 16, 2013)

Is that the one in Montgomery from Dr. Rivers


----------



## justturnin (Aug 16, 2013)

Wildthings said:


> Is that the one in Montgomery from Dr. Rivers



You plottin on my wood Barry?????


----------



## Wildthings (Aug 16, 2013)

justturnin said:


> Wildthings said:
> 
> 
> > Is that the one in Montgomery from Dr. Rivers
> ...



LOL no but seems like we got the same ideas/dreams. Hope it works out for you. I need a good sawyer


----------

