# I have this piece of Wood



## Mlyle (Jun 5, 2021)

I have a piece of wood below.
I appears to have a name on it but I
can not see the whole word but it does appear
to have the last 4 letters of gong.on it
take a look an let me know what all you big brainy
wood guys think.
I am a wood guy too but obviously not too brainy!

thanks

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mlyle (Jun 5, 2021)

So what do youthink???


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## Arn213 (Jun 5, 2021)

Paul `gong. Looks like a piece of mahogany. But you need to get a photo close up of the end grain.


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## trc65 (Jun 5, 2021)

Don't know what it is, but don't think the next to last letter is a "n", looks like a "u" to me. The letters look like "pauligoug" to me, but can't figure anything from that.


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## Gonzalodqa (Jun 5, 2021)

The streaking reminded me of goncalo alves. Also the name could be Pau / gonç a. Goncalo alves is also call Pau ferro 
An end grain picture could help

Reactions: Creative 1


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## phinds (Jun 5, 2021)

The printed name could be mahogany, but from those pics I wouldn't hazzard a guess as to more than the fact that you are probably right that it is wood. Get some decent pics, particularly of the cleaned up end grain and maybe we can help.


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## Mlyle (Jun 5, 2021)

Yes I see I do need better pics!
And an end grain shot
I will get on that today.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mlyle (Jun 5, 2021)

End grain


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## Mlyle (Jun 5, 2021)

Or this

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Mlyle (Jun 5, 2021)

I don’t believe this is mahogany...does not feel like
Mahogany. Looks and feels like an exotic.

JMHO

thanks all


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## phinds (Jun 5, 2021)

Mahogany IS an exotic. Also, the end grain is consistent with mahogany (and also with jatoba). Do you have a density for the piece?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mlyle (Jun 5, 2021)

@phinds. I knew the word Exotic would cause a reaction.
But then exotic is a vague term!


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## Mlyle (Jun 5, 2021)

Thanks all !


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## phinds (Jun 5, 2021)

Mlyle said:


> @phinds. I knew the word Exotic would cause a reaction.
> But then exotic is a vague term!


Not really. It describes any wood that is not native to one's country. Some people will count domestics such as osage orange as "exotic" but technically they are not. Mahogany grows in the US (Florida in particular) but it is not native to the US so it is an exotic.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Arn213 (Jun 5, 2021)

Paul has good points on all of this and also we cannot rule out Hawaiian Koa or some other true acacia species. Hawaiian Koa surface grain below for reference (guitar neck stock that I own):

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mr. Peet (Jun 5, 2021)

phinds said:


> Not really. It describes any wood that is not native to one's country. Some people will count domestics such as osage orange as "exotic" but technically they are not. Mahogany grows in the US (Florida in particular) but it is not native to the US so it is an exotic.


_Swietenia mahagoni_, is native to southern Florida. It is often sold as "Cuban Mahogany" as it fetches more than "Florida Mahogany". Big leaf, _Swietenia macrophylla_, can grow in Florida and is not native. I assume that is the mahogany Paul referred to.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## phinds (Jun 5, 2021)

Mr. Peet said:


> _Swietenia mahagoni_, is native to southern Florida. It is often sold as "Cuban Mahogany" as it fetches more than "Florida Mahogany". Big leaf, _Swietenia macrophylla_, can grow in Florida and is not native. I assume that is the mahogany Paul referred to.


I though it was transplanted TO Florida from South America and is not originally native to FL. No?


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## Arn213 (Jun 5, 2021)

Mr. Peet said:


> _Swietenia mahagoni_, is native to southern Florida. It is often sold as "Cuban Mahogany" as it fetches more than "Florida Mahogany". Big leaf, _Swietenia macrophylla_, can grow in Florida and is not native. I assume that is the mahogany Paul referred to.


Cuban mahogany and Big Leaf mahogany also grows in Hawaii as well as other exotic woods. Even non swietenia species like Khaya grows in Hawaii. Lots of exotics not native to Hawaii grows in the five islands.


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## Mlyle (Jun 5, 2021)

@pvwoodcrafts 
sees the writing on my piece as pantagonia
and i can see that now also
@phinds as far as density goes, my piece is heavy. But I know not how to measure density!


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## phinds (Jun 5, 2021)

Mlyle said:


> But I know not how to measure density!


Measure the 3 dimensions (precisely) and weigh it. Give us the figures.


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## Mlyle (Jun 5, 2021)

ok. 

1.53" x 1.20" x 10.5"
282.1 gr


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## phinds (Jun 6, 2021)

Mlyle said:


> ok.
> 
> 1.53" x 1.20" x 10.5"
> 282.1 gr


OK, 56lbs/cuft, so pretty heavy. At 64lbs/cuft it would sink in water. Mahogany generally runs about 40lbs/cuft so 56 rules out mahogany.

Jatoba typically runs about 56lbs /cuft, so spot on. That doesn't mean it IS jatoba, but given the combination of density and end grain I'd say it's a good bet. Also the color is consistent with jatoba. There just aren't that many woods with that combination of end grain (sparse pores and marginal parenchyma), density, and color.


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## Arn213 (Jun 6, 2021)

> @Gonzalodqa ”The streaking reminded me of goncalo alves. Also the name could be Pau / gonç a. Goncalo alves is also call Pau ferro”.


Goncalvo Alves I actually have in my guitar neck and no it is not called Pau ferro and also has a common name of “tiger wood”. Pau ferro has common names like morado rosewood or Bolivian rosewood (not a true dalbergia) and even Brazilian ironwood. Goncalvo alves does not have any or share similar elemental features with Pau ferro- nada, zilche. Pau ferro is very monotone with distinct gauge of winter surface rings. Goncalvo alves has tints and shades of tan to browns- you will get bands/smears and broad streaks of the darker shades of browns over the tans.


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## Arn213 (Jun 6, 2021)

phinds said:


> OK, 56lbs/cuft, so pretty heavy. At 64lbs/cuft it would sink in water. Mahogany generally runs about 40lbs/cuft so 56 rules out mahogany.
> 
> Jatoba typically runs about 56lbs /cuft, so spot on. That doesn't mean it IS jatoba, but given the combination of density and end grain I'd say it's a good bet. Also the color is consistent with jatoba. There just aren't that many woods with that combination of end grain (sparse pores and marginal parenchyma), density, and color.


So if the marking was spelt correctly to “Patagonia”, instead of “Pantgong” (or Pantgung), then there is a possibility this could be “Curupay” or Patagonia rosewood (even though not a dalbergia) as this is about 60 lbs./cu. ft.- because it is widely commercial available and it is used for flooring. It is very hard and very dense hardwood.


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## Gonzalodqa (Jun 6, 2021)

Arn213 said:


> Goncalvo Alves I actually have in my guitar neck and no it is not called Pau ferro and also has a common name of “tiger wood”. Pau ferro has common names like morado rosewood or Bolivian rosewood (not a true dalbergia) and even Brazilian ironwood. Goncalvo alves does not have any or share similar elemental features with Pau ferro- nada, zilche. Pau ferro is very monotone with distinct gauge of winter surface rings. Goncalvo alves has tints and shades of tan to browns- you will get bands/smears and broad streaks of the darker shades of browns over the tans.


Pau ferro is just a loose term for hard woods (it literally means ironwood) in Brasil it is one of its common names. Common names can be very confusing. 
I just wanted to add that it might not be, I have no experience with goncalo alves, but I have seen very bland pieces of goncalo alves before.

Reactions: +Karma 1


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## Mr. Peet (Jun 6, 2021)

My first thought was 'Rengas', but was waiting for better pictures. Any "Pau" wood gives a Portuguese feel, leaning toward South America (Brazil). Any 'gong' wood gives a leaning feel toward Malaysia. 'Patagonian' gives me a flooring feel.


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## Arn213 (Jun 6, 2021)

Gonzalodqa said:


> Pau ferro is just a loose term for hard woods (it literally means ironwood) in Brasil it is one of its common names. Common names can be very confusing.
> I just wanted to add that it might not be, I have no experience with goncalo alves, but I have seen very bland pieces of goncalo alves before.


Not really- in the guitar world, “pau ferro” means “pau ferro” and “goncalo alves” is called “Goncalvo alves”. Any luthier will also tell you that because there is big difference between the two. Pau ferro is used for fretboards commercially and trending as a guitar neck shaft wood. Goncalvo alves- not so much and you would be lucky to find that for neck shaft because it is hard and stiff. Both are available as back and sides woods, but more so of the Pau ferro. Your basing this based on color alone and markings on pau ferro and goncalo alves does not have any commonality whatever. Seeing something and actually working with it will give you different perspective on their mechanical and sound properties.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gonzalodqa (Jun 6, 2021)

I understand your point but we don’t know if this comes form the luthier or guitar builders world. A wood trader could have written the name that he got from a dealer in the country of origin and even misspelled it. Even inside the wood industry same species are called differently, a great example of this is the flooring industry. 
my comment was more of a general comment, going by the look and the name (Pau gxxxxx). Knowing that Pau ferró is one of the names for this species in Brazil


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## phinds (Jun 6, 2021)

Arn213 said:


> there is a possibility this could be “Curupay”


I don't think so. Look at the end grain.


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## phinds (Jun 6, 2021)

Mr. Peet said:


> 'Patagonian' gives me a flooring feel.


+1 on that


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## phinds (Jun 6, 2021)

I am finding it very odd that everyone is apparently resisting my suggestion of jatoba. Everything about the wood (color, graininess, density, and most importantly end grain) is very consistent with jatoba and the end grain rules out almost everything else.


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## Arn213 (Jun 6, 2021)

phinds said:


> I don't think so. Look at the end grain.


The end grain is blurry as hell- you can make that out clearly? If he photographed it straight on without angle distortion, I will feel convinced. We are all speculating on this. Even the name- maybe the piece of lumber came from a fellow name Paul Gong or it was for a project for “Paul Gong” Residence or that was a specification sample used for the project like for flooring, cabinetry or trims. @Mlyle is there more background story to this piece like how did you obtain it? Won’t you just send a sample piece to Paul and Mark?


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## phinds (Jun 6, 2021)

Arn213 said:


> The end grain is blurry as hell-


I disagree. THIS to me is completely convincing. Very sparse pores and marginal parenchyma.


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## phinds (Jun 6, 2021)

Check out the jatoba end grain here: http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_anatomy/diffuse porous/exotics/_exotics.htm


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## Arn213 (Jun 6, 2021)

phinds said:


> I disagree. THIS to me is completely convincing. Very sparse pores and marginal parenchyma.
> View attachment 210444


Well no comment at my end- but the end grain is blurry as hell. Why would you disagree with me on that*? *Looking at that is like not having my prescription glasses on. If someone showed me a piece of Brazilian pernambuco and a piece of Chakte viga/paela side by side with an end grain shot like that which is blurry, they look so similar that you will have a 50/50 percent chance of picking out which one is which not unless there was a dye bleed test performed in the spot because one will come up positive for pernambuco or pau brazil.


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## Gonzalodqa (Jun 6, 2021)

phinds said:


> Check out the jatoba end grain here: http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_anatomy/diffuse porous/exotics/_exotics.htm


I think you might be right. Although the picture is bit blurry and I can’t really distinguish the rays. But the sample does look like your pictures

Reactions: Agree 1


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## phinds (Jun 6, 2021)

Arn213 said:


> Well no comment at my end- but the end grain is blurry as hell. Why would you disagree with me on that*? *Looking at that is like not having my prescription glasses on. If someone showed me a piece of Brazilian pernambuco and a piece of Chakte viga/paela side by side with an end grain shot like that which is blurry, they look so similar that you will have a 50/50 percent chance of picking out which one is which not unless there was a dye bleed test performed in the spot because one will come up positive for pernambuco or pau brazil.


I agree w/ what you are saying but as I said, that one area of the end grain shot is convincing to me.


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## Mlyle (Jun 6, 2021)

Wow you guys love a good wood mystery.

I am not much help .


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## phinds (Jun 6, 2021)

Mlyle said:


> Wow you guys love a good wood mystery.


Indeed !

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mlyle (Jun 7, 2021)

Patagonian Rosewood I see Woodcraft has Patagonian Rosewood on sale now.
Looks similar. 

I know … looks can be deceiving!
But since at least one set of eyes thought
The word on the side of my piece was
Patagonian….

what are yer thoughts!?


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## Arn213 (Jun 7, 2021)

My post #24 must be in “invisible mode”.Patagonian rosewood you say @Mlyle? After #40 post you held onto an information you already had, “which was on the side of my piece was Patagonian”. Must be fun going to a “wild goose chase”.

Paul is adamant that is jatoba based on the elements on your end grain photo. Someone else sees it that way as well. Need a 3rd vote (lol) and I like to know what @Mr. Peet thinks it is. Otherwise this will either become a “cold case” or a “close case”.

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## Mlyle (Jun 7, 2021)

So sorry I have not communicated the last
couple days as the family barged back in my
life and left all you wood detectives in the
lurch.
so sorry my camera work is not up to
Sherlock Holmes. Quality.....ha

Ok.....I am not a wood collector!
I am a wood user mainly woodturning!
Tho I have a lot of wood.

That said

The back story on this piece is
I do not remember how or where I obtained
this piece of wood. But it must have come from
"A Wood Barter " source as 99% of my wood comes from WB.
Prob thrown in a box to take up space.

This piece of mine is 9 x 1.5 x 1.5 whats the min size you need to put this under the scope and
to send to the Wood Barter Bureau of Wood
Investigators?
I said min size as I was planning to use this
as a handle on a future turning.
so let me know and I will send !!!

thanks all. you guys are great!.


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## Mr. Peet (Jun 7, 2021)

Arn213 said:


> Goncalvo Alves I actually have in my guitar neck and no it is not called Pau ferro and also has a common name of “tiger wood”. Pau ferro has common names like morado rosewood or Bolivian rosewood (not a true dalbergia) and even Brazilian ironwood. Goncalvo alves does not have any or share similar elemental features with Pau ferro- nada, zilche. Pau ferro is very monotone with distinct gauge of winter surface rings. Goncalvo alves has tints and shades of tan to browns- you will get bands/smears and broad streaks of the darker shades of browns over the tans.


Just a bit of information, Goncalvo alves is also called Pau ferro claro in Argentina. The 'Pau' prefix is used for many of the common names in association with 'Goncalvo alves.

In Brazil, Pau ferro refers to 10 or so species, in Guiana, an 11th, _Guibourtia copallifera_, and the list expands a little from there. Common names can be misleading, and are at times.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## phinds (Jun 7, 2021)

Mlyle said:


> This piece of mine is 9 x 1.5 x 1.5 whats the min size you need to put this under the scope and
> to send to the Wood Barter Bureau of Wood Investigators?


If you send me a piece of that 4" long I can process it. Longer would be better but that would leave almost nothing for you. I'll send it back if you pay return postage.

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## Mlyle (Jun 7, 2021)

@phinds yer address an I send all to you!

Reactions: Way Cool 1


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## Mlyle (Jun 7, 2021)

All for the love of wood!!!!

Reactions: Like 1 | +Karma 1


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## phinds (Jul 5, 2021)

Mlyle said:


> @phinds yer address an I send all to you!


I seemed to have forgotten to do this. Done now.


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## phinds (Jul 12, 2021)

OK, Michael (@Mlyle) I just got the piece. When I pulled it out of the bubble wrap, my first thought was goncalo alves because the face grain definitely has the look of goncalo alves, but then it also looks like jatoba. After a quick glance, I'm ready to bet money that my original analysis was correct. It's jatoba.

I'll do my processing just to make 100% sure


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## Mlyle (Jul 13, 2021)

Ok cool I am so glad you got it....

yEAH THAT IS PRETTY TIMBRE....

reminds me of some Koa I got from MY PAL in Kapaa .

it.

Now the reason I was on the " not Jatoba " train ...I have a couple of 8" X 36' OR 48" boards of Jatoba I was told
when I got them....ha ha and I only buy from WB and Rockler and Woodcraft and only the last two put a sticker on wood. any way
they do not ...to my pea brain look similar at all to the wood I just sent you..
Now I am wondering about the pieces I have that are ...labeled....now I must go and check my two pieces of Jatoba. for authentity.

But I will take yer word for it as you are our resident wood detective ....and god bless ya ..

So in finality after detecting more info on my wood ....send me back the 6 inches that remains ...
Ha Ha

MLyle


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## Mlyle (Jul 13, 2021)

Oh Yeah

Thanks so much Paul for your love of Wood....

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## phinds (Jul 15, 2021)

OK, processing done. To my complete and utter lack of surprize, it turns out to be jatoba





Pore density is slightly low for jatoba but that doesn't signify anything significant in this case.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mlyle (Jul 16, 2021)

Aha


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## Arn213 (Jul 16, 2021)

I am a little baffled Paul because I am not seeing the pore count relationship anywhere close between the “mystery wood” and “jatoba”. Pore density on the “mystery wood” is 50 percent less per row compared to the “jatoba”. When does that become or not become a significant factor? I am not trying to be an a-hole or put you on the spot, but I am not alone on this, but concrete info. helps me determine what I am looking at to aid me make an inform judgement/decision.


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## Gonzalodqa (Jul 16, 2021)

Are the pictures at the same amplification? The miter wood seem to have a bit larger vessel lumen. Maybe the mistery wood is not of the same species but still the same genus


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## phinds (Jul 16, 2021)

Arn213 said:


> I am a little baffled Paul because I am not seeing the pore count relationship anywhere close between the “mystery wood” and “jatoba”. Pore density on the “mystery wood” is 50 percent less per row compared to the “jatoba”. When does that become or not become a significant factor? I am not trying to be an a-hole or put you on the spot, but I am not alone on this, but concrete info. helps me determine what I am looking at to aid me make an inform judgement/decision.


I have absolutely no problem w/ you (or anyone) questioning my analysis of this or any other wood. As I felt all my life and have told my kids for 30+ years, the only thing I hate more than being wrong is being wrong and thinking I'm right, so I'm quite happy to have anyone correct me about anything that I have wrong. **

I certainly agree that the pore count is quite low for jatoba, but the other characteristics ALL confirm jatoba. The face grain looks exactly like some jatoba (not all, I'll admit, but quite a bit) and more importantly, there are at least 5 species that are sold as jatoba. Most of what's sold in the US is Hymenaea Courbaril but the others in include Hymenaea palustris, Hymenaea parvifolia, Hymenaea reticulata, and Hymenaea stigonocarpa.

I'm pretty sure this is not Hymenaea stigonocarpa because the one sample I found of it (https://images.lib.ncsu.edu/luna/servlet/detail/NCSULIB~2~2~29545~133293:LEGUMINOSAE-DETARIOIDEAE-Hymenaea-s?qvq=q:Hymenaea stigonocarpa&mi=2&trs=3) has numerous pore multiples that I have seen only infrequently in Hymenaea Courbaril but is otherwise identical to Hymenaea Courbaril.

I can't find samples for Hymenaea palustris or Hymenaea reticulata.

Hymenaea palustris, however, appears, from the 3 end grain samples I found (https://images.lib.ncsu.edu/luna/se...tart=&dateRangeEnd=&QuickSearchA=QuickSearchA) to have the same relatively sparse pore distribution as the mystery wood.

My point, even aside from the specific examples of Hymenaea palustris, is that there are many species that are sold as jatoba, all of which may grow in different growing conditions (which, admittedly does normally have much more impact on growth rings and density than on pore density) and the lower pore density of this mystery wood, *when taken with all the other characteristics*, does not cause me any concern. I have no set size difference when I start worrying and again, I agree w/ you that the difference between this wood and Hymenaea palustris, *if taken alone*, would make me hesitant to ID it as jatoba.

** this, by the way, has caused me some problems in life since I tend think that others feel the same way but most often they DO NOT. Most people would much rather BE wrong that to admit that they ARE wrong and they don't appreciate my corrections. 


​

Reactions: Great Post 1


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## phinds (Jul 16, 2021)

Gonzalodqa said:


> Are the pictures at the same amplification?


Yes, but thanks for the reminder. Because I ALWAYS do it that way, I sometimes forget to state that it is the case.


Gonzalodqa said:


> The miter wood seem to have a bit larger vessel lumen. Maybe the mistery wood is not of the same species but still the same genus


Yes, this is my thought as well, as stated in my previous post.

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## phinds (Jul 16, 2021)

Later --- I was relying on my own samples of Hymenaea Courbaril but somewhat to my surprise, that species ALSO sometimes has lower pore density than my samples:

https://images.lib.ncsu.edu/luna/se...tart=&dateRangeEnd=&QuickSearchA=QuickSearchA

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## Arn213 (Jul 16, 2021)

Thank you for a great post on #55 Paul @phinds! I get it, I appreciate it, it is very thorough, very sincere and I see where you are coming from. I was honestly not questioning your findings and I was just wondering whether the “rules get bent” at certain instances when there are other major factor present as evidence that precedes the more minor factors.

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## phinds (Jul 16, 2021)

Also, I just took the density ... 61lbs/cuft which is just a tad higher than the nominal high 50's of jatoba, so not at all out of line.


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## phinds (Jul 16, 2021)

Arn213 said:


> Thank you for a great post on #55 Paul @phinds! I get it, I appreciate it, it is very thorough, very sincere and I see where you are coming from. I was honestly not questioning your findings and I was just wondering whether the “rules get bent” at certain instances when there are other major factor present as evidence that precedes the more minor factors.


Yeah, it WOULD be nice if there were some rule of thumb like "20% lower pore density => not same species".

I should also have added that in addition to the fact that the face grain looks like both goncalo alves and jatoba, it does NOT, as far as I'm aware, look like any *other *wood that I've ever seen or heard of that is used by North American woodworkers and that was part of my "other characteristics" calculation.

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## Mr. Peet (Jul 16, 2021)

Arn213 said:


> Thank you for a great post on #55 Paul @phinds! I get it, I appreciate it, it is very thorough, very sincere and I see where you are coming from. I was honestly not questioning your findings and I was just wondering whether the “rules get bent” at certain instances when there are other major factor present as evidence that precedes the more minor factors.


He has told me to 'get bent' before... however, I assume with age it will happen if I'm told to or not.

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