# need help again



## steve bellinger

Decided to try making my own insert. Took apart a call I had made that I didn't like. Just to give me a pattern to go by.Got it made after the second try, but after putting the reed in it , it don't want to do much. What do you think I need to do to get it to made noise??? Hope that makes since. Do I need to sand better, do I need to trash, and start over. Don't know where to go from here.









Don't know why the second pic woun't go full image, but it's there any way


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## SENC

You might also take straight on, top, and side photos with reeds and corks in place, and hopefully someone actively making arkansas style inserts will chime in, but here are a few observations and suggestions.





In the section circled in red, it looks like there is a slight hump or ramp up towards the front of the reed notch... this area needs to be very flat. How does the reed sit on this section? Fix this issue first.

The section circled in blue appears to have a later starting, more dramatic slope than the otheer insert. A frontal view and side views with reeds may make this more obvious... but there is a key relationship between this radius, the length of the tone channel, and the length of the reed. All 3 have to be right for each other. If you have extra reeds or reed material, I would suggest making 5-6 reeds that are identical except for length... each about 1/32 different than the next (with your current reed in the middle of the range). Try them all and note the results. Then, start filing/sanding down that radius, stopping frequently to test your reed series again (taking notes on sounds and impacts). Keep going until you find something you like... and if you can't, scrap and start over. You'll learn a lot in this iterative process.

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 1


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## ironman123

Great observations Henry. Those are very important.


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## Wildthings

and make sure you are putting the correct side of the reed down toward the tone channel everytime


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## JR Custom Calls

Is this a duck call, or an owl hoot? Looks an aweful lotlike some of the owl reed setups I've seen. 

If it's a duck call, it looks like the tone channel is a bit short. Obviously looks like you made it about the same length as the one you're duplicating, but if it's too far back, it'll just push the reed up and won't make noise if it's not long enough for the board shape.

What you might consider doing is taking a 1.5x1.5x3 block of wood, drill a 5/8 (or whatever diameter that board is) hole, then carefully measure and cut close to the cork notch about halfway across the hole... then put your toneboard in, cut down close to it, and file down to final shape. I did this with an insert I made so that I could duplicate it before getting a custom jig made.


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## steve bellinger

Thanks guys. Granddaughter showed up yesterday so I didn't get a chance to try this again. Havn't seen her in 6 mounts or so, so all my shop time stopped. :) She lived with us for the first 5 years and then moved away, when son and her mom got a divorce. She will be 9 in Feb. Will get back to this next day off, and most likely have more questions.

Reactions: Like 1


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## steve bellinger

.


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## BrentWin

Steve, I would suggest getting a public jig. It's not going to give a perfect toneboard, but it will give you something that will make a duck like sound. From there, you experiment. You can change the tone channel length, the depth of the cork notch, the radius of toneboard, etc, etc. You will make a bunch of firewood, and you will learn some of what makes a duck call tick. After you get your sound, you can get a custom jig made, or like I do, you learn to manipulate the toneboard in the jig as you file different parts. But whether you use a public or custom jig, the final fine tuning is free hand.

Personally, I like River Mallard, but Pintail Duck Calls and Webfoot Game Calls also make good jigs. When you order your jig, order 100 precut reeds and a bunch of cork material or precut corks.

Here is a GREAT tutorial on working with a public jig. http://thogamecallsforums.com/index.php/topic,15814.0.html

Also, I agree with Jonathan, your tone channel looks short. Here's a picture of mine for comparison. Sorry for the fuzzy picture. Also, the reed should only touch the toneboard for about 1/8-3/16" past the cork.


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## steve bellinger

Brent thanks man. I took Jonathon's advice and filed it really flat under a mag glass. It don't sound like a duck, but does make sound every time I blow on it now.:) For some reason I was thinking it wound be easier than it is to make these LOL. This is the one I was hoping to make really custom. Not finished yet but getting there, also think I will get a nice fancy band for it.

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## BrentWin

Toneboards take some work and alot of experimentation. But, it's not the black art that some make it out to be. Just looking at what you have, it appears that rather than having a continual radius, it stays too flat and then drops off to quickly at the end of the tone channel.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## JR Custom Calls

Yeah, it needs to curve. Take your reed and bend it down at the end, and hold up to a light from the side and see if you see any light between the reed and board. If you do, you need to file down the high spots a little until it's one gradual shape. 

Something else you can do is go buy some 5/8 poplar dowel from Lowes... cheap easy practice.


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## steve bellinger

Jonathon thanks for the tip on the dowel's. But I have more wood than I can use in a life time.LOL What's the best wood to use starting out on these Poplar, maple? I know I'm not using my burl till I know what I'm doing.


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## JR Custom Calls

The dowels are just handy because you don't have to turn them down... and poplar is super easy to file. About any wood will be fine for practice. You won't get as much snap or volume on softer woods, but you can at least get a duck sound and start fine tuning.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## SENC

Glad the Ark-style guys are chiming in! You're in much better hands now than with you were with a flat toneboard metal reed guy advising you!

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## BrentWin

SENC said:


> Glad the Ark-style guys are chiming in! You're in much better hands now than with you were with a flat toneboard metal reed guy advising you!



That whole flat toneboard/curved reed thing just isn't logical. lol

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## steve bellinger

Well as I'm cheap, decided to try making my own jig out of some hickory I had laying around. My thoughts were that it will last longer than maple or other softer hard woods I have laying around. I took the insert that I've been using as a pattern, and made the jig from it. Did tons of sanding , then filing to get it as close to perfect as I could, under a mag glass. After I liked it, went to the shop and turned a maple dowel down to 5/8, cut to aprox size. Put it in the jig, and filed it down to it's final size. Not really thinking it would work that good (but hoping) took it out and put in the reed. Well to my surprise it sounded just like the pattern. Or at least to my  ears. Will be making a few more today, just to see if it was blind luck, or it really does work. O I don't expect this jig to last long but at least I will know I can get a few inserts out of it.( I hope)


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## BrentWin

That looks pretty good. I might suggest trying one with the tone channel about .10" longer. I'll bet that will make it easier to blow and give you more range. Of course, it may screw up everything. After all, it is a toneboard.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SENC

Awesome, Steve! That is exactly how I made Ark-style inserts for a long time.

I have two tips.

First, to extend the life of your insert, put painters tape or fingernail polish or even black sharpie on the surface... that way you'll see visibly when filing that you've gone far enough filing the insert and can stop before changing the slope of your jig.

Second, keep experimenting with your inserts and reeds... make a few inserts where you use the jig to get your cork notch and flat part of the insert where you want it, but leave the radius proud and work on that freehand. You may find a different combination you like better. Once you find something you really like, you can use it to modify your jig further... or make another. Have fun!

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## BrentWin

One word of caution. When you are hand filing, be sure a keep the two sides level with each other. If one is higher than the other, the call will tend to get squeally. 
Some call makers use this to produce a "cajun squeal" in their sound, but to start you need to keep everything leveled up.

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 1


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## stumpjumper

steve bellinger said:


> I took the insert that I've been using as a pattern, and made the jig from it.



And where did you acquire this pattern insert from? IF this is a purchased item,which it appears to be, then you have essentially copied someone else`s design. 

You said previously that you didn't think that making a tone board would be this hard. Why not? Since building a musical instrument apparently isn`t difficult, would you perhaps make me a saxophone or a clarinet next. They are to wind and reed operated musical instruments.

STUMP


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## stumpjumper

BrentWin said:


> One word of caution. When you are hand filing, be sure a keep the two sides level with each other. If one is higher than the other, the call will tend to get squeally.
> Some call makers use this to produce a "cajun squeal" in their sound, but to start you need to keep everything leveled up.



SO far from the truth. An UNLEVEL tone board is not what makes a call have, the correct word is hold. Wow.. just...wow

STUMP


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## steve bellinger

stumpjumper said:


> And where did you acquire this pattern insert from? IF this is a purchased item,which it appears to be, then you have essentially copied someone else`s design.
> 
> You said previously that you didn't think that making a tone board would be this hard. Why not? Since building a musical instrument apparently isn`t difficult, would you perhaps make me a saxophone or a clarinet next. They are to wind and reed operated musical instruments.
> 
> STUMP


Ron i'll get right on that sax. LOL I do have a native American flute on my bucket list though. As far as the insert goes, yes it was bought , but as I'm not trying to sell these things. Just trying to figure out how they work first. From there i'll get something that is custom to me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## BrentWin

stumpjumper said:


> SO far from the truth. An UNLEVEL tone board is not what makes a call have, the correct word is hold. Wow.. just...wow
> 
> STUMP



Well Stump, it looks like I am not the only idiot in the world. Sorry for spreading thoughts that are contrary to your own.

http://thogamecallsforums.com/index.php/topic,8744.msg66340.html#msg66340

Reactions: Like 2


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## steve bellinger

Brent,Jonathon, Henry, Just a thank you for taking the time and effort to help me out.

Reactions: Like 1 | +Karma 1


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## JR Custom Calls

stumpjumper said:


> And where did you acquire this pattern insert from? IF this is a purchased item,which it appears to be, then you have essentially copied someone else`s design.
> 
> You said previously that you didn't think that making a tone board would be this hard. Why not? Since building a musical instrument apparently isn`t difficult, would you perhaps make me a saxophone or a clarinet next. They are to wind and reed operated musical instruments.
> 
> STUMP




Your very helpful and constructive post is most appreciated, I am sure. 

There's no need to be an ass, I'm sure I speak for many here when I say that your disrespectful and down-putting way of posting is not welcome here. 

Just because you don't like the way he's trying to learn toneboards doesn't make it wrong. He's not selling them, he's just learning how things work. I understand that you're an accomplished callmaker, but that doesn't make you any better than anyone else here. Just treat people with respect, and if you're going to criticize someome, at least make it constructive.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## steve bellinger

Ron just for a heads up, If I chose to really make a sax or clarinet. I have enough confidence in my wood working ability to do so. I know it woun't be the worlds greatest job to begin with, but I could make it work, and have it look good. like I tell my kids all the time," if someone else can do it you can to."

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Kevin

stumpjumper said:


> you have essentially copied someone else`s design.



You are not 100% original in anything you do either - none of us are.



 

Maybe Specialized bicycle Co. doesn't appreciate you besmirching the good name of their model of bike by using their trademarked name. You have certainly copied other peoples' ideas and creations in your call making whether you have done so intentionally and knowingly or not. Why don't you try to help guys like Steve in a positive way instead of just trying to beat them down.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Mike Jones

This part LOOKS so good, that I think, you could just put a string around it and swing it around over your deeks and the ducks will come flocking in! (I am admiring your effort on the custom soundboard too!

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 1


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## stumpjumper

double post. sorry


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## stumpjumper

As was expected.

Was there disdain in my post, yes. Why? Because wrong is wrong to me plain and simple. Blatant copying (by tracing) is at the end of the day copying. The OP stated that he wanted to learn how to make a duck call....what did he learn in all honesty? That cheating/copying is ok? By using a wood jig and filing said jig down to a mfg insert he basically traced the original part...copied. And as usual in today`s society....that`s ok. However I disagree 100! (and that has nothing to do with my personal accomplishments). Doesn`t matter if your trying to sell something or not in the end.
You want to learn how to do this.....make a wooden flat jig and go from there, read some books on air dynamics, oscillation of various materials, sound wave harmonics, there are even books written on the operational characteristics of wind operated musical instruments. In fact the statement in regards to the clarinet or saxophone was to show that a duck call is a musical instrument by design. There are many pieces of information in those regards.
You want to tell me that I should help...how? Show him how to do it? Do it for him? Explain everything there is and why? Give him measurements etc? Ain`t gonna happen in this life time. I have helped a select few and still do, but just not how you think I should help. I give limited information to them or help them down a certain path....it is their job to find the answer. This does two things, first weeds out those that don`t want to work as they do nothing and second helps the person wanting to learn to..wait for it......THINK! Wow now there`s an idea. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
So go ahead and jump on fellers, I have thick skin. Just remember this....doing the right thing is not always the easiest thing or easiest path, but it is the right path to follow. MOST shall never know or realize this in life. 
To all the old time call makers that had none of these things to help you or make your life easier in the pursuit of duck calls...thank you for showing that it can be done with a little hard work and a little desire. That gents, I will always respect. 

STUMP

Reactions: +Karma 1


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## Kevin

stumpjumper said:


> ... I have thick skin. ...



Ron you're going to need thick skin - because I don't pull punches either. Your post is so full of bull and arrogance it's sickening. Guys like Steve are full of integrity and honesty and for you to attack him the way you have based on your bizarre view of the craft, as if you're some paragon of virtue is laughable. You want to pretend to be a self-made call maker go ahead. You're a hypocrite that holds others in disdain while you remain blind to the fact that no man is an island. You aren't half the man Steve is when it comes to character so go ahead and try to assassinate his character all you want, because you'll be the only one gullible enough to believe your double-standards hold water.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## stumpjumper

Apparently you misunderstand sir...I am NOT attacking anyone. The fact of the matter is that I, like you, have stated my opinion and nothing more. I respect your opinion therefore I ask that you respect mine.

STUMP


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## steve bellinger

Ron this forum and others are set up not only to get great wood. Show off your work, but also to help folks that want to get started doing something they never have done. After reading your latest post twice. from what I can get from it is you my friend need to get off your high horse. Do you really think buying a public jig is any different than making one? Even though I tried coping the one I made does not mean it's a exact copy. I would have to go to there place and steal there's to get that. Any way this thread is getting way off topic thanks to you. So if you don't have any thing use full to add, please don't reply.

Reactions: Like 2 | Thank You! 1


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## axelsmith1

Ron,
My question to you, if you have learned the art the hard way and anything that you try to figure out, you do it on your own without help. What is it that you are looking to accomplish here being a member of this site and scanning this forum? Are you merely the school yard bully waiting to take cheap shots at those of use that enjoy the collaboration and working together to figure out problems? When you get down to it sometimes it has more to do with making connections with others that share your interests than whether a call squeaks or quacks. As far as NOT attacking anyone you would be hard pressed to convince me that your reply to Brent was not an attack. Even if you do not consider the rest of your replies attacks, having the potential of the keeper of the toneboard lurking out there waiting to take a shot at someone inhibits members of this site from freely asking questions and hinders leaving responses. I've been on the other popular call making sites and lost interest in participating there simply because of the number of people that posted replies like you have posted here. I enjoy being a member of this site and respect everyone here because there is no hostile replies and if some one ever pops in with one, it is met with the negativity you are feeling now. You were not asked for your opinion on how steve got to where he is. He just wanted some help and a little guidance to get to his goal from where he's at, if you can't help or refuse to, feel free to keep the rest of your thoughts to your self.

Steve,
I agree with the trying to lengthen out the channel. Looking at the cork set on your picture with the reed and cork installed. You can shorten up the cork which also lengthens the tone channel. It is a good topic and its a shame it got so badly derailed

Reactions: Agree 3 | Great Post 1 | Sincere 1


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