# Stabilizing wood



## robert flynt

Was wondering about the stabilizing chemical you fellows use. The company that does mine uses polimers and monimers that will double or more the weight of the wood and makes it much harder.It makes wood like california buckeye burl gets heavy, hard, and usable for knife handle material. Does the chemical ya'll use do that?
Robert


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## Kevin

robert flynt said:


> Was wondering about the stabilizing chemical you fellows use. The company that does mine uses polimers and monimers that will double or more the weight of the wood and makes it much harder.It makes wood like california buckeye burl gets heavy, hard, and usable for knife handle material. Does the chemical ya'll use do that?
> Robert



I know you told me not to send you any stabilized wood but I did anyway. When you get the wood you will be able to work a stabilized FBE block and decide for yourself. 

:hatsoff:


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## NYWoodturner

Robert - the amount of weight a piece gains depends on the species and condition. 
I just stabilized about 7 blanks to send to Tom (Molokai) for knife handles.
The spalted sycamore more than doubled in weight. The walnut burl much less than that as was the redwood burl. Try the pieces Kevin sent you. If that doesn't answer your question, PM me or answer here and I will send you a piece of the sycamore that is stabilized and a piece from the same block that is not. Kevin and I use the same resin. My guess is you will not be able to tell the difference between what we use and the other company
Scott

Reactions: Way Cool 1


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## robert flynt

NYWoodturner said:


> Robert - the amount of weight a piece gains depends on the species and condition.
> I just stabilized about 7 blanks to send to Tom (Molokai) for knife handles.
> The spalted sycamore more than doubled in weight. The walnut burl much less than that as was the redwood burl. Try the pieces Kevin sent you. If that doesn't answer your question, PM me or answer here and I will send you a piece of the sycamore that is stabilized and a piece from the same block that is not. Kevin and I use the same resin. My guess is you will not be able to tell the difference between what we use and the other company
> Scott


Thank guys, when I get a little ahead on orders I'll try the piece Kevin sent me and let you know how it compares.
Robert


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## Mike1950

NYWoodturner said:


> Robert - the amount of weight a piece gains depends on the species and condition.
> I just stabilized about 7 blanks to send to Tom (Molokai) for knife handles.
> The spalted sycamore more than doubled in weight. The walnut burl much less than that as was the redwood burl. Try the pieces Kevin sent you. If that doesn't answer your question, PM me or answer here and I will send you a piece of the sycamore that is stabilized and a piece from the same block that is not. Kevin and I use the same resin. My guess is you will not be able to tell the difference between what we use and the other company
> Scott



I totally disagree Scott- I have worked with 4 different sellers stablelized wood -2 professional and 2 amateur. 1 seller here has wood that uses a different resin- smells like fiberglass resin while cutting, sanding or machining. It is much easier to work with and in my opinion creates a much better finished product.


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## NYWoodturner

Mike1950 said:


> NYWoodturner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Robert - the amount of weight a piece gains depends on the species and condition.
> I just stabilized about 7 blanks to send to Tom (Molokai) for knife handles.
> The spalted sycamore more than doubled in weight. The walnut burl much less than that as was the redwood burl. Try the pieces Kevin sent you. If that doesn't answer your question, PM me or answer here and I will send you a piece of the sycamore that is stabilized and a piece from the same block that is not. Kevin and I use the same resin. My guess is you will not be able to tell the difference between what we use and the other company
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I totally disagree Scott- I have worked with 4 different sellers stablelized wood -2 professional and 2 amateur. 1 seller here has wood that uses a different resin- smells like fiberglass resin while cutting, sanding or machining. It is much easier to work with and in my opinion creates a much better finished product.
Click to expand...


So is he the amateur or professional ? and would you possibly know which stabilizer he uses? I think we are actually in agreement. My opinion - although not totally stated above is that there isn't that much difference between the professional Chemical and the Chemical we get from Jon. I think the difference is in the equipment and the skill set of the operator. I did some searches and read a lot of articles on the difference between pro and amateur after reading another thread. I found a lot of really strong opinions and speculation but nothing that offered up hard data. Jon's chambers allow for dry vac and then the addition of resin without loss of vacuum. That works so much better than my other chamber which only allows for wet vac. I have done both in Jon's chamber and always seem to get better results doing a dry vac first and then adding resin while still under vacuum. Reading what most strong opinions on the amateur stabilizers are referring to, its guys that soak wood in hardening chemicals, stain pre-treatments that you but in the paint store, oil and poly blends that soak into the wood etc... Are there commercial operators that could pull two ounces of resin into a set of coolibah burl knife scales - yeah probably so, but will one of Jon's chambers pull the same amount into a piece of spalted sycamore and a professional chamber - I honestly think so. So i think the species and density of the wood plays a large role in it. As far as the density of the cured resin Jon sells, or a professional uses, I really don't think there will be that much difference on a hardness scale. I went to chemical sights that sell industrial grade chemicals, but I hit a dead end because I don't know the real or chemical name of what Jon sells us or the pros use. 
I think it is a very interesting line of conversation that I am shooting in the dark on. I'd love for Jon or someone with some real knowledge about the topic to weigh in.


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## Mike1950

NYWoodturner said:


> Mike1950 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYWoodturner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Robert - the amount of weight a piece gains depends on the species and condition.
> I just stabilized about 7 blanks to send to Tom (Molokai) for knife handles.
> The spalted sycamore more than doubled in weight. The walnut burl much less than that as was the redwood burl. Try the pieces Kevin sent you. If that doesn't answer your question, PM me or answer here and I will send you a piece of the sycamore that is stabilized and a piece from the same block that is not. Kevin and I use the same resin. My guess is you will not be able to tell the difference between what we use and the other company
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I totally disagree Scott- I have worked with 4 different sellers stablelized wood -2 professional and 2 amateur. 1 seller here has wood that uses a different resin- smells like fiberglass resin while cutting, sanding or machining. It is much easier to work with and in my opinion creates a much better finished product.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So is he the amateur or professional ? and would you possibly know which stabilizer he uses? I think we are actually in agreement. My opinion - although not totally stated above is that there isn't that much difference between the professional Chemical and the Chemical we get from Jon. I think the difference is in the equipment and the skill set of the operator. I did some searches and read a lot of articles on the difference between pro and amateur after reading another thread. I found a lot of really strong opinions and speculation but nothing that offered up hard data. Jon's chambers allow for dry vac and then the addition of resin without loss of vacuum. That works so much better than my other chamber which only allows for wet vac. I have done both in Jon's chamber and always seem to get better results doing a dry vac first and then adding resin while still under vacuum. Reading what most strong opinions on the amateur stabilizers are referring to, its guys that soak wood in hardening chemicals, stain pre-treatments that you but in the paint store, oil and poly blends that soak into the wood etc... Are there commercial operators that could pull two ounces of resin into a set of coolibah burl knife scales - yeah probably so, but will one of Jon's chambers pull the same amount into a piece of spalted sycamore and a professional chamber - I honestly think so. So i think the species and density of the wood plays a large role in it. As far as the density of the cured resin Jon sells, or a professional uses, I really don't think there will be that much difference on a hardness scale. I went to chemical sights that sell industrial grade chemicals, but I hit a dead end because I don't know the real or chemical name of what Jon sells us or the pros use.
> I think it is a very interesting line of conversation that I am shooting in the dark on. I'd love for Jon or someone with some real knowledge about the topic to weigh in.
Click to expand...


It is pro - Not the same as Jon. I have only used the stableized wood- not done it- totally depending on sense of smell and feel- they are different. They are a different chemical of that I am sure of. 3 smell and work the same- the other- much different. I will talk to seller and find out if he will disclose but will not put him on spot. m


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## Kevin

I know that one of the chemicals that used to be used was Loctite 90C and it was so nasty that Loctite wouldn't sell it to individuals but only companies. This is what i have read on numerous forums so I don't claim any firsthand knowledge of it. I did almost buy 2 gallons of 90C once on the "open market" but in the end decided I didn't want to risk it, because the things I read about it, if true, meant you could actually kill yourself using the stuff.


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## Molokai

i already asked but get no answer. Since i have no stabilizing chamber other than some glass jar connected to a old fridge engine. If you like i can post some photos for all to laugh. But thinking of buying one. 
Here is the product which i can buy in my country.

paraloid b-72 Acrylic copolymer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraloid_B-72


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## Molokai

Thanks.
the fridge engine is not capable of making lot of vacuum. I was told only -0.6, i dont know what - Psi?


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## Molokai

Jon Kennedy said:


> Molokai said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> the fridge engine is not capable of making lot of vacuum. I was told only -0.6, i dont know what - Psi?
> 
> 
> 
> hook a vacuum gauge to it and see, you need to pull at least 28" of vacuum, other wise look for a two stage vacuum pump, where are you located???
> Jon
Click to expand...

Croatia, Europe


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## robert flynt

Jon Kennedy said:


> Jon Kennedy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mike1950 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYWoodturner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mike1950 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I totally disagree Scott- I have worked with 4 different sellers stablelized wood -2 professional and 2 amateur. 1 seller here has wood that uses a different resin- smells like fiberglass resin while cutting, sanding or machining. It is much easier to work with and in my opinion creates a much better finished product.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So is he the amateur or professional ? and would you possibly know which stabilizer he uses? I think we are actually in agreement. My opinion - although not totally stated above is that there isn't that much difference between the professional Chemical and the Chemical we get from Jon. I think the difference is in the equipment and the skill set of the operator. I did some searches and read a lot of articles on the difference between pro and amateur after reading another thread. I found a lot of really strong opinions and speculation but nothing that offered up hard data. Jon's chambers allow for dry vac and then the addition of resin without loss of vacuum. That works so much better than my other chamber which only allows for wet vac. I have done both in Jon's chamber and always seem to get better results doing a dry vac first and then adding resin while still under vacuum. Reading what most strong opinions on the amateur stabilizers are referring to, its guys that soak wood in hardening chemicals, stain pre-treatments that you but in the paint store, oil and poly blends that soak into the wood etc... Are there commercial operators that could pull two ounces of resin into a set of coolibah burl knife scales - yeah probably so, but will one of Jon's chambers pull the same amount into a piece of spalted sycamore and a professional chamber - I honestly think so. So i think the species and density of the wood plays a large role in it. As far as the density of the cured resin Jon sells, or a professional uses, I really don't think there will be that much difference on a hardness scale. I went to chemical sights that sell industrial grade chemicals, but I hit a dead end because I don't know the real or chemical name of what Jon sells us or the pros use.
> I think it is a very interesting line of conversation that I am shooting in the dark on. I'd love for Jon or someone with some real knowledge about the topic to weigh in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is pro - Not the same as Jon. I have only used the stableized wood- not done it- totally depending on sense of smell and feel- they are different. They are a different chemical of that I am sure of. 3 smell and work the same- the other- much different. I will talk to seller and find out if he will disclose but will not put him on spot. m​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What makes a pro stabilizer?? is it the resin or the stabilizing process?​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> the chemical(s) that i use is the same as the so called pros! and i also use the same chemical enginneers as the so called PROs!
Click to expand...


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## robert flynt

I have used a lot of wood from diffrent stabilizers and have noted a lot of diffrences. With the wood being the same, there has been a difference in weight, how much the wood darkens, the smell (some stink), how they grind ( some powder, some don't), whether it absorbs into pithy wood or not, and how it finishes.
Robert


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## meridian

You need pressure and lots of it to get full penetration on piece with any thickness or density, along with proprietary chemicals that are not sold off the shelf. that's why the pros get as much as they do to provide the service. I use 2 different companies to have my wood done, and only those 2. It really depends on the species where it gets sent. I have yet to see a "homebrew" that compares to what is produced by the pros.....


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## jaustin

I am just getting into Stabilizing, everyone mention they stabilize but don't say the name of what they use to stabilize with. 

Is it a secret?


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## Kevin

There's as many experiences with stabilizing and stabilized wood as there are people who have the experiences. I've turned pieces stabilized by WSSI and K&G (the top pro stabilizers IMO and most likely whom Meridian refers to) and I have stabilized using Cactus Juice and also resin from member Jon Kennedy. I can tell a difference in smell and texture between both resins sold by Curtis and Jon, but only a subtle difference between WSSI & K&G. The "pro" resins do smell different than the so-called "homebrew" (which is bullshite since those resins were formulated by professional chemists, not some jackleg wannabe chemist in his root cellar) and my experience is that all 4 repel moisture sufficiently and equally, and I cannot tell any discernible difference when it comes to that nor in finishing. It's not uncommon to see disparate comments about this polarized topic but I think they should be taken with a grain of salt since, in the end your own personal experience is the only thing that matters.

My advice is to do your own stabilizing if you have the notion, because to say the "homebrew" resins are not good is just a bunch of horse feathers. You will have to look far and wide to find any DIYers that say they made a mistake getting into doing their own stabilizing. I know for a fact that all the wood I have stabilized using both Curtis's and Jon's resin will perform as intended. I know this from experience. I prefer Jon's only because Curtis got so popular and busy you have to wait a long time to get any, but either resin will do what you expect based on my personal experience.


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## meridian

I have no dog in this fight so please continue on as you were........... I choose to send my wood out. That's what I do. What you do is up to you. 

*Kevin you said ---> "You will have to look far and wide to find any DIYers that say they made a mistake getting into doing their own stabilizing"...........*

Come on over to Knifedogs / Bladeforums / JerzeeDevil or Ramanon........... there are hundreds of them. Maybe start with Mark from "Burl Source" (largest knife handle supplier on the forums) who bought his own "stabilizing kit" when he first started out.........ask him how that turned out. -L


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## Kevin

I don't frequent knife forums so I'm sure you are right. But there's probably a far greater number of satisfied DIYers than non. Maybe if you holler a little louder you will be more right.


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## meridian

Kevin,
Nobody likes paying $10 a pound for stabilizing. Don't get me wrong, I would love someone to be able to produce pro results for a more affordable price. Knifemakers have been trying solve this puzzle for many years. Pickle jar / pressure cooker / paint pot / glass beaker....etc etc. Brake bleeder / venturi vac / refrig vac / air compressor for pressure / vac from HF...etc etc Not to mention all the chemicals....Tried them all. 

On the bright side -- > Here's a couple pics of a build Tracy from knifedogs is doing. Steel tank to hold hundreds of pounds of pressure to get complete penetration with the stabilant. His chemical also looks promising. Weight was good as well. 

http://i.Rule #2/Cifj93O.jpg

http://i.Rule #2/BgW9CBA.jpg


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## Kevin

Excellent post Larry. We can get somewhere like this. I have a question for you so we can present a well balanced discussion for those considering getting into it themselves. You've had bad experiences personally trying to stabilize it yourself correct? What has been the hurdle/s - penetration? I ask because I have not encountered that problem at all in my personal experiences. The methods you listed I totally agree are all "homebrew" and do not work effectively, but I never thought you were referring to such primitive methods in your previous comments. 

I also applaud Tracy's attempts to solve whatever problems he's having, but if he's trying to increase penetration, I don't beleieve there's any way he's going to get more using pressure than by pulling a 29 Hg+ vacuum. IMO he cannot achieve anywhere close to the pressures needed to get anywhere close to the effectiveness of a deep vacuum. I don't know the numbers but I can't see how it would be possible. 

In any event this discussion just got even better and can only help us all.


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## meridian

Kevin said:


> Excellent post Larry. We can get somewhere like this. I have a question for you so we can present a well balanced discussion for those considering getting into it themselves. You've had bad experiences personally trying to stabilize it yourself correct? What has been the hurdle/s - penetration? I ask because I have not encountered that problem at all in my personal experiences. The methods you listed I totally agree are all "homebrew" and do not work effectively, but I never thought you were referring to such primitive methods in your previous comments.
> 
> I also applaud Tracy's attempts to solve whatever problems he's having, but if he's trying to increase penetration, I don't beleieve there's any way he's going to get more using pressure than by pulling a 29 Hg+ vacuum. IMO he cannot achieve anywhere close to the pressures needed to get anywhere close to the effectiveness of a deep vacuum. I don't know the numbers but I can't see how it would be possible.
> 
> In any event this discussion just got even better and can only help us all.



Kevin
When you start talking about hickory / oak / hard rock maple....etc (just to name a few) or deer antler / bone and the size of the piece increases to say a knife block 1 x 2 x 5 vac alone doesn't cut it. 

You need vac and then pressure....and lots of it. Don't think that's even a debate is it ? Pressure is significantly more effective than vac. Having them both is the way to go.

Tracy will apply vac and then pressurize the tank. That equates to having a bomb in your shop....worth it? I dunno. That's why its going welded on the inside and out etc...


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## meridian

*Here is a pic of my old paint pot......I would sell it but I use it for trying to cast materials once in awhile. It goes to 60 + PSI and holds a decent vac as well. 

Lots of people I know have had these lids come off and fly across the shop. Obviously there has to be a better mousetrap. *

http://i589.Rule #2/albums/ss335/MeridianKnives/Tools/vac.jpg


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## Kevin

Paint pots are commonly used for pressure chambers for casting. Blowing them up isn't a rare occurrence either. I'm not a physicist but I know some basics: the larger the chamber the less pressure they can hold compared to a smaller one given the same gauge steel, but the thicker the steel, the less able the wider seal is to resist the higher pressures. Chambers that are designed specifically for use as pressure chambers have reverse sealing lids, so the seal gets tighter as pressure increases. Of course they cost more so DIYers would rather buy a paint or pressure pot from HF, because they've read on so many specialty forums that it's okay, along with so many other unsubstantiated myths. IMO this is why much of the stuff "experts" on these forums advice gets repeated by other so-called experts. But if we try and trace anything back to an actual peer-reviewed white paper or something that has more merit than hearsay, you cannot usually end up finding any such legit source. That's why I'm saying our own individual experiences are what matters most, and we are certainly going to have differences in them. I would rather start with something more than trial and error like I do, but it seems that the scientific community is more concerned with sending probes to Planet 7YX34c than solving more important matters at home, like how we can process perfectly stabilized knife scales and other delicious wood products. 

Maybe we'll get lucky and Planet 7YX34c will be a planet of alien woodaholics, dedicated to the perfection of things in all facets of woodworking.


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## meridian

Kevin said:


> Paint pots are commonly used for pressure chambers for casting. Blowing them up isn't a rare occurrence either. I'm not a physicist but I know some basics: the larger the chamber the less pressure they can hold compared to a smaller one given the same gauge steel, but the thicker the steel, the less able the wider seal is to resist the higher pressures. Chambers that are designed specifically for use as pressure chambers have reverse sealing lids, so the seal gets tighter as pressure increases. Of course they cost more so DIYers would rather buy a paint or pressure pot from HF, because they've read on so many specialty forums that it's okay, along with so many other unsubstantiated myths. IMO this is why much of the stuff "experts" on these forums advice gets repeated by other so-called experts. But if we try and trace anything back to an actual peer-reviewed white paper or something that has more merit than hearsay, you cannot usually end up finding any such legit source. That's why I'm saying our own individual experiences are what matters most, and we are certainly going to have differences in them. I would rather start with something more than trial and error like I do, but it seems that the scientific community is more concerned with sending probes to Planet 7YX34c than solving more important matters at home, like how we can process perfectly stabilized knife scales and other delicious wood products.
> 
> Maybe we'll get lucky and Planet 7YX34c will be a planet of alien woodaholics, dedicated to the perfection of things in all facets of woodworking.



Kevin,
There are hundreds of pages of posts on those other sites that I mentioned previously that illustrate people's experiences, and all kinds of different methods they used. Not to mention the size of the memberships of those forums...... but I guess that is irrelevant. Oh, and I forgot....I think Mark (burl source) is a member here, at least he was for awhile. I don't think K/G or WSSI is going to provide any "whitepapers" anytime soon..... 

I'm done. If you think using a glass chamber with vac alone does what you need it to, then so be it.


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## Kevin

meridian said:


> If you think using a glass chamber with vac alone does what you need it to, then so be it.



Yea, that's my point. I'm trying to encourage others to try things for themselves and not restrict their options based on the opinions of others - yours nor mine. Because I sure don't know it all, but I do know what works for me and whether or not it does. Those who have bad experiences cannot discount those who have good or great ones, and vice versa. If I made my decisions based on your beliefs then I'd be limited to your mindset and could not discover anything more than what you do, and it would work the same way if you allowed yourself only my views. 

I'll keep doing it no matter what others may have experienced because their experiences are theirs, and theirs alone. I still wholeheartedly advise anyone wanting to get into doing their own stabilizing to go ahead and give it a try and see if they like it. A vast number of those of us who do are happy with the results. For those that have tried it and aren't happy for whatever reason, they should do what they think is right for themselves also. There's no right or wrong on this topic there's only what works for one man and what doesn't, and his experiences will help him decide whether he wants to continue or not.


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## DKMD

I know next to nothing about stabilizing other than what I've read on a number of forums, but I think part of the 'disagreement' has to do with the the intended use for the stabilized material. I would venture to say that the largest number of the home stabilizers are making pens, and the environment in which a pen is used may differ significantly from that of a gun grip or knife scale... I can't remember the last time I tried to field dress anything with a fountain pen.

I have turned a number of pen blanks that were stabilized by pros and DIYers. Even among the professional materials, I've noticed a difference in the consistency of the material, the smell, and type of shaving that comes off the tool. Despite the differences, they all worked beautifully although I tend to avoid the blanks from Arizona Silhouette because of the odor.

I'm interested in the topic, and I'll likely get into stabilizing at some point. I'd love to know more about the problems that folks have had with the various home methods(I'm not talking about wood hardener and shellac soaks)... Can anyone talk specifics? Any particular sources for reading along those lines?


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## NYWoodturner

OK - I can't sit on the sidelines anymore, I think this is a wonderful and worthy discussion and if conducted amongst Gentlemen who respect each others opinion is priceless. 

It is my understanding that there are 4 basic steps to stabilizing:
#1 - Dry. If the wood is not completely dry its a non starter. If its not dry do move on to steps 2,3 and 4
#2 - Remove the air from the cells of the wood. Mostly done with a vacuum. 
#3 - Fill the void in the cells created by the removal of air with a liquid resin. This is where the art lies.
#4 - Solidify the resin with heat within the cell walls, thus creating a solid form made up of the solid cell wall and the solidified liquid resin.

If these steps embody the process the only difference between a DIY and a pro would be
#1 - the efficiency of removing air from all the cells (Power of the vacuum) and #2 - the hardness of the resin when cooked. (Difference in chemical make-up)

Looking at the labs who make and sell the chemicals to stabilize woods, there are not that many different chemicals. I can only find 6 if I remember right. The cost is very similar and I just don't understand the chemical composition.
There are hundreds of people who buy these chemicals and resell under a myriad of different names, claims and promises. 

The only real difference between the 6 chemicals would be the hardness of the resin when cooked. Combine that with the hardness of the cell wall soaked and cooked in resin. 
That leaves only one variable, being the saturation level of the cell walls as you progress towards the center of the block. If you get 100% saturation, it is only down to the hardness of the chemical when solidified through cooking.

I cut all of my knife blocks down to scales if I am going to stabilize them. That makes them roughly 3/4 inches thick. If they are unobstructed in the chamber, the vacuum is pulling on both sides, so it is only pulling resin into half of .75 inches or 3/8. If you have a good vacuum pump pulling 29 HG i think it is completely reasonable to expect 100% penetration.
So again, its back to the hardness of the cooked / cured resin.

Thats how it all exists in my mind. If i'm off base or missing steps let me know.


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## Kevin

@ Doc. I only started stabilizing April of last year, but I've sold more game call and especially turkey pot call blanks than anything else, and so far _knock on wood _ I haven't had any complaints from a single maker, and most of them have used professionally stabilized blanks. Yes I'm sure there are many guys who don't like DIY and I shouldn't have said _"you'd have to look far and wide"_ but I said it because that has been *my* experience. But then, you can find plenty of guys that don't like homemade pecan pie and prefer store bought. To each his own. 

@Scott - I think you said it much better than me. 


.


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