# Rules of Knife making



## justturnin

I have only made one knife myself. It was a drop point to begin with but the point broke and turned into a stubby. I made it out of a cheap HF Table Saw Blade. The knife was fine but the blade was a little thin. This weekend I picked up a few Riding Lawnmower blades from the in-laws house. They are 15.25" long. They have a pretty neat star pattern where the bolt goes that I would like to preserve in the blade as well. I would like to make a knife for my FIL using one of these blades and some Stabilized Spalted Hickory I got off his land and would like for it to be a well balance knife. I just don't know how to do this. I do know I need a forge and have most of what I need to make it so I can anneal the steel and harden it. 


My question, is there a standard as far as Handle size to blade ratio? 

Any advise would be appreciated. I have 6 blades to test on.

Blade Material






Design Idea


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## NYWoodturner

Chris - I won't begin to give you instructions on knife design or making. I am just starting the learning curve as well, but I can tell you that I have learned that is is way more involved than I ever thought. I can help with the annealing process and heat treating afterwards. Pay all the shipping costs and I will hook a fellow newbie up. That will save you the distraction of building a forge and allow you to focus more on the design and finding / grinding aspect. Let me know.
Scott


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## Wildthings

subscribing


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## Kevin

Me too.


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## woodtickgreg

Me too! It will be fun to see what someone does with an mtd blade.


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## robert flynt

4 1/2" tang length is pretty much standard for most hunting knives. with full tang knives you can get the balance close by drilling as many 1/2" holes as you can get in between the pin holes and lanyard holes to remove weight or you can taper the tang down to about 1/16" at the rear. After you apply your handle material just keep removing handle material until the balance has moved as close as you can get to the ricasso. If it is something big like a bowie you would want to go to 5".


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## justturnin

NYWoodturner said:


> Chris - I won't begin to give you instructions on knife design or making. I am just starting the learning curve as well, but I can tell you that I have learned that is is way more involved than I ever thought. I can help with the annealing process and heat treating afterwards. Pay all the shipping costs and I will hook a fellow newbie up. That will save you the distraction of building a forge and allow you to focus more on the design and finding / grinding aspect. Let me know.
> Scott



I really appreciate that. I am going to have to take you up on that. What do I need to do to get it ready for annealing? Rough cut out or do I need to do the bulk of the grinding on it?


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## justturnin

robert flynt said:


> 4 1/2" tang length is pretty much standard for most hunting knives. with full tang knives you can get the balance close by drilling as many 1/2" holes as you can get in between the pin holes and lanyard holes to remove weight or you can taper the tang down to about 1/16" at the rear. After you apply your handle material just keep removing handle material until the balance has moved as close as you can get to the ricasso. If it is something big like a bowie you would want to go to 5".



Great info. What is the typical blade length on a Hunting Knife? 5"-6"? I will drill it out because a taper sounds a little more advanced for a second attempt at a knife. Most of this will be done by hand but I do have a few sanders available for use.


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## robert flynt

justturnin said:


> robert flynt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 4 1/2" tang length is pretty much standard for most hunting knives. with full tang knives you can get the balance close by drilling as many 1/2" holes as you can get in between the pin holes and lanyard holes to remove weight or you can taper the tang down to about 1/16" at the rear. After you apply your handle material just keep removing handle material until the balance has moved as close as you can get to the ricasso. If it is something big like a bowie you would want to go to 5".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great info. What is the typical blade length on a Hunting Knife? 5"-6"? I will drill it out because a taper sounds a little more advanced for a second attempt at a knife. Most of this will be done by hand but I do have a few sanders available for use.
Click to expand...

I would say 4" is the most common in the drop point style and I don't like to go much over 5" 0n any other styles for hunting use. You have more control with the shorter blade while skinning. If I were you I'd wait until after annealing to do much more than a rough profile. If your going to use a cutting torch to profile the blade leave a 1/4" excess all the way around the profile.


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## justturnin

Now that I am looking at these blades I am not sure they will work. The star shaped bolt hole is 1.125 which is may be too big for a blade and also maybe too big to hide in the handle. Thoughts? 

Maybe I could redesign it where I cut part of the pattern off but the blade has a kick on the edges that would have to be hammered out. 

Hmm got me some thinkin to do.


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## NYWoodturner

justturnin said:


> NYWoodturner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chris - I won't begin to give you instructions on knife design or making. I am just starting the learning curve as well, but I can tell you that I have learned that is is way more involved than I ever thought. I can help with the annealing process and heat treating afterwards. Pay all the shipping costs and I will hook a fellow newbie up. That will save you the distraction of building a forge and allow you to focus more on the design and finding / grinding aspect. Let me know.
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really appreciate that. I am going to have to take you up on that. What do I need to do to get it ready for annealing? Rough cut out or do I need to do the bulk of the grinding on it?
Click to expand...


Just rough cut it. It will be much easier for you to cut and shape once annealed. I'll pm you my address.


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## justturnin

NYWoodturner said:


> Just rough cut it. It will be much easier for you to cut and shape once annealed. I'll pm you my address.



Thank you Sir. I am going to play around with shapes/styles for the blade to keep that star in there. It will take a thicker blade than a hunting knife. May end up more like a Bush Knife. Either way he wont use it, he uses a Case and I have never seen him use anything else. It is more of just a simple gift. I may get some Kydex to make a sheath for it.


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## justturnin

*New Design...sorta*

Ok, I played with some designs and really want to keep it simple. I think I like this one. It is a wider blade at 1.625" but it keeps the star in there and makes the other holes fit in as well. The main issue I was having with the narrower blade was the smaller pin hole on the blade falling on the edge and there was no way to move it around without it falling on the edge or being way to close to the edge. 

Thoughts on this style?


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## robert flynt

Chris, How wide is the tang? If this helps, usually 1" wide at front of the tang and 1 1/8 to 1 1/4" at the rear is enough. One of the problems we all have is making the knife a little to big on paper. It's an illusion that kinda plays tricks on you.The blade has a tendency to look smaller than it really is until you put the guard and handle on them. If it look big on paper it's way to big in reality.
That pattern looks like it will work but I would be careful when shaping the handle where that hole in the tang is so close to the edge. If you want to save the pattern transfer it to a piece of 1/8" Masonite or plexaglass. One thing to remember is, no sharp corners or deep scratches and bevel the edges of the holes you drill to prevent what we call stress risers ( hair line cracks) during heat treating.


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## NYWoodturner

Chris - looking around at what kind of steel those might be, i found a chart that I think many here will find interesting at some point. I have been reading opinions on it for two hours now and my head is spinning... :wacko1:
I think 1085 would be the safest assumption, but would love to hear Robert Flynt's opinion on it - and Percy's as well.
Here is the link

Junkyard Steel

Scott


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## woodtickgreg

I work part time in a mower and power equipment shop, never imagined that all those blades we scrap could be used for anything. :dunno:


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## NYWoodturner

woodtickgreg said:


> I work part time in a mower and power equipment shop, never imagined that all those blades we scrap could be used for anything. :dunno:



You know steel as well as anyone - what kind of steel would you guess? I think the age of the blade might be a nod as well huh? :dunno:


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## woodtickgreg

NYWoodturner said:


> woodtickgreg said:
> 
> 
> 
> I work part time in a mower and power equipment shop, never imagined that all those blades we scrap could be used for anything. :dunno:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know steel as well as anyone - what kind of steel would you guess? I think the age of the blade might be a nod as well huh? :dunno:
Click to expand...

I am far from an expert on different kinds of steel, just some limited knowledge and learning all the time. But here's a few thoughts about mower blade steel....
I think it's just a high carbon steel and there's many grades of it because it's relatively inexpensive, otherwise replacement blades would be pricey. most of the ones we sell are around 12 bucks to 20 bucks on the high end.
They are not heat treated to a high hardness or they would shatter upon an impact.
They do dent and bend upon an impact, what rockwell hardness are they? I dunno, and further more I do not know if they can be hardened to a higher degree. I do know these blades are just stamped out in a soft state and then hardened.
Does make me wonder what one could do with a 30" blade though?


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## robert flynt

I didn't want to disappoint but I agree with Greg. Most lawn mower blades are made with lower carbon steel and a few are made with are 5160 steel or they are not heat treated to a high RC hardness. My suggestion is to heat a piece of the steel to non magnetic hold it there for 30 seconds then plunge in water. Wearing eye protection please, put it in a vice and hit it with a hammer. If it shatters like glass or break easily use it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## NYWoodturner

robert flynt said:


> I didn't want to disappoint but I agree with Greg. Most lawn mower blades are made with lower carbon steel and a few are made with are 5160 steel or they are not heat treated to a high RC hardness. My suggestion is to heat a piece of the steel to non magnetic hold it there for 30 seconds then plunge in water. Wearing eye protection please, put it in a vice and hit it with a hammer. If it shatters like glass or break easily use it.



Thanks Robert. That's an easy enough test. I read something similar on a blade forum. 
There is so much speculation on mower blade steel it just makes sense to test and know for sure. 
Scott


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## justturnin

Ohh man there is some good info flowing here. On the link Scott posted earlier it showed mower blades and Leaf Springs to be the same 1085. Are the thoughts that Mower blades are no longer made w/ 1085 or that 1085 is not good steel? I have no idea what 1085 means.


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## justturnin

NYWoodturner said:


> Thanks Robert. That's an easy enough test. I read something similar on a blade forum.
> There is so much speculation on mower blade steel it just makes sense to test and know for sure.
> Scott



I will include a piece of offcut from the blade trimming when I ship it to you to test with.


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## justturnin

Dang, been doing some reading on this and it appears Mower blades are junk. Now the question, do I proceed or scrap the scrap? I sure don't want to give mt FIL a piece of junk knife. Maybe I would be better off just getting some good steel and doing it that way............


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## Kevin

Chris, I have less blade knowledge than anyone who has posted in this thread probably including you, so my opinion is worth almost nothing. I'm giving it based on a general philosophy not on blade steel specifically:

There are many different *very* affordable knife blanks available for purchase. Save yourself and Scott a lot of hassle and risk of wasting your valuable time, and start this project with a piece of steel guaranteed to perform predictably. Buy a blade blank. With as many knife guys on the forum I bet you could even trade wood or your expert services for one too. 

JMO :i_dunno:


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## justturnin

Kevin said:


> Chris, I have less blade knowledge than anyone who has posted in this thread probably including you, so my opinion is worth almost nothing. I'm giving it based on a general philosophy not on blade steel specifically:
> 
> There are many different *very* affordable knife blanks available for purchase. Save yourself and Scott a lot of hassle and risk of wasting your valuable time, and start this project with a piece of steel guaranteed to perform predictably. Buy a blade blank. With as many knife guys on the forum I bet you could even trade wood or your expert services for one too.
> 
> JMO :i_dunno:



You are likely right, and I am questioning potentially wasting Scott's time, unless he wants me to. For me it is less about the destination and more about the journey. I actually have a few pre-made knife blanks from WC. I pull them out every once in a while but never get excited about them so I put them back in their drawer. I have wanted to do a knife for a long time and enjoyed the heck out of making the first one from a TS blade. It did not turn out great but I like it. My only problem is my shop is small there is no room for metal working...yet. I just think it would be cool to take an old used up piece of farm equipment, some old rotten wood and turn it into something nice and return it to him. I think that would mean more than the knife. the knife may never see use, heck my MIL may hang it on the wall next to the Longhorn horns.


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## Kevin

Yeah Chris I kind of thought that might be the case and I can understand that totally.


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## NYWoodturner

Chris - I'm in the same boat as you. There really isn't much wasted time on my end. Put it in the oven, set the program and turn it on. The actual test Robert outlined wont take much time either. If its junk we both learned something (We all learn something) and that is a positive. If its hard enough steel to make a knife, it will be a very personal gift from you to your father. I see no downside that deters me - like you said - its all part of the journey.
Im in if your in. 
Scott


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## robert flynt

justturnin said:


> Ohh man there is some good info flowing here. On the link Scott posted earlier it showed mower blades and Leaf Springs to be the same 1085. Are the thoughts that Mower blades are no longer made w/ 1085 or that 1085 is not good steel? I have no idea what 1085 means.


The last two numbers designate the percentage of carbon per pound of steel it has in it. The steels starting with 10 tell that it is what is called a simple steel because it has no other alloys in it just iron and carbon. the 1095 has the highest carbon content .095 percent. The lower the carbon content in simple steels the less edge holding ability it has. 1085 is a good carbon steel.


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## robert flynt

Guys, I just ordered some stainless steel from Admiral steel in Il. and while I was at it I got 5 ft. of 1080 steel 1/8 x 1 1/2" for $11.47 not counting shipping. Carbon steels are the least expensive, if the lawn mower blade doesn't work out and they are great to use to learn how to grind.


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## NYWoodturner

Robert - thanks for the offer, but of it doesn't work I have some 1095 I'm going to send him. I think it came from Admiral as well - if not it was Pops. I think this is more about the experiment and the challenge. Very awesome of you to offer though 
Scott


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## justturnin

NYWoodturner said:


> Robert - thanks for the offer, but of it doesn't work I have some 1095 I'm going to send him. I think it came from Admiral as well - if not it was Pops. I think this is more about the experiment and the challenge. Very awesome of you to offer though
> Scott



Ahh, gonna try to pull a fast one on me ehh :thanx: I appreciate that.


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## robert flynt

NYWoodturner said:


> Robert - thanks for the offer, but of it doesn't work I have some 1095 I'm going to send him. I think it came from Admiral as well - if not it was Pops. I think this is more about the experiment and the challenge. Very awesome of you to offer though
> Scott


No problem, I mig weld it on to the expensive Damascus for the tang on hidden tang knives.


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## NYWoodturner

robert flynt said:


> NYWoodturner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Robert - thanks for the offer, but of it doesn't work I have some 1095 I'm going to send him. I think it came from Admiral as well - if not it was Pops. I think this is more about the experiment and the challenge. Very awesome of you to offer though
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
> No problem, I mig weld it on to the expensive Damascus for the tang on hidden tang knives.
Click to expand...


Man you teach when you don't know your teaching!  that may answer a question I have had for a bit now. I have never ever welded, so I don't know bupkis about it. My real interest in knife making is folders. They seem to be more involved and complicated, so I am starting with fixed blades. My welding questions were mig or tig? And is it best to weld the bolsters on prior to pinning it all together ?


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## justturnin

robert flynt said:


> NYWoodturner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Robert - thanks for the offer, but of it doesn't work I have some 1095 I'm going to send him. I think it came from Admiral as well - if not it was Pops. I think this is more about the experiment and the challenge. Very awesome of you to offer though
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
> No problem, I mig weld it on to the expensive Damascus for the tang on hidden tang knives.
Click to expand...


I have thought about that before thinking what a waste to stuff the handle w/ Damascus. Now I know.


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## justturnin

Ok, Got a little grinder time on the blade. Here it is. I will be shipping this to Scott soon after I get one more cut out. There is a bit of a cup in it from the blade stamping that he is going to try to take out for me too, now I am wondering if the blade is thick enough to grind that out on the belt sander. It is 1/8". I cant wait to get this back to attempt an edge on it. I was going to use some spalted Hickory off his land but it is a bit plain so now I am thinking of using some Cholla cast in plain black for the handle instead. I was also thinking about Bluing the blade to protect it. Thoughts? I am a little concerned about the hole in the handle being too close to the edge and possibly cracking. I hope it works out. I just did not want to make a straight knife. This feels pretty good in the hand.


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## woodtickgreg

That's just pretty darn cool.  Regardless of whether or not it is the best steel to use or not. The novelty of it is very creative, cudo's to you for daring to try something new and different. :hatsoff:


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## NYWoodturner

Looks good so far  On the hole in the handle I understand your concern. I think we will know by the end of the annealing. Since your cutting two blanks, If your first one works, you might consider trying to take a triangular needle file to that star shape and elongate the points and make a more traditional star as a nod to Texas... you know them crazy Texans...


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## Wildthings

NYWoodturner said:


> ... you know them crazy Texans...



YEAH BABY!!


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## justturnin

NYWoodturner said:


> Looks good so far  On the hole in the handle I understand your concern. I think we will know by the end of the annealing. Since your cutting two blanks, If your first one works, you might consider trying to take a triangular needle file to that star shape and elongate the points and make a more traditional star as a nod to Texas... you know them crazy Texans...



After working with the blade today I am wondering if Annealing may not be necessary. It may not have been hardened so much to begin with. The metal does not seem brittle at all and some of the scrap pieces I was able to bend. The file seemed to work it nicely. I may try to drill the holes out and if it works go from there and just send it for heat treating the blade.

What are you thoughts on that?


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## Kevin

Chris, might just be my bad eyes but it looks like you sharpening the spine too?


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## justturnin

Kevin said:


> Chris, might just be my bad eyes but it looks like you sharpening the spine too?



No sharpening yet. You may be seeing the green paint pen I used to line it out. All I have done so far is the shape. It is a bit too thick and heavy so I am going to put it on my belt sander tomorrow and thin it out some, after I get a ceramic belt for it. I think the time on the belt sander will take out the cup and bow from each side and get rid of any remaining pits in the steel. Once I do that then I will start to put an edge on it.


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## justturnin

Todays effort on the blade. I picked up an 80 grit ceramic belt and was able to work the cop and bow out of each side. Took a while but it is done. I also started to grind down the edge. I stopped because I don't know what I am doing. I am going to need to make a jig to get the bevel right. The file made short work so I have seen some simple jigs using a file that I will make. I also need to get some more belts to buff the blade up some more. I think I need to go at least to 320 on the belt sander to remove the deep scratches then I think I can do the rest slow and steady by hand after hardening to polish it real nice.

I also got the pilot holes drilled for the pins but I need a #f bit to drill the holes for the 1/4" pins.

What kind of belts should I be using. The ceramic seemed to be ok but was sure slow to get the job done.


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## robert flynt

Chris, I like using 60 grit belts for my first grind then go to 120 grit and after that 220 grit. that should be good enough for the heat treat. Leave enough metal so that when you get it back you can go over it again with the 220 grit belt to get any carborazation of off the surface and get the edge close to the thickness that you want it, after that you can go to the consecutive smaller grits. After the 220 grind if you would like, the smaller grits can be done by hand. Clamp the blade to a board about the width of the blade in a vice so that when you sit in front of it the point of the blade is facing you laying flat on it's side. Like this you can draw the sand paper toward you from plunge to tip, don't sand back and forth. Once you get the coarse scratches out go to the smaller grits.


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## Wildthings

Wow Chris that is starting to look really sweet! Makes me want to try it with those old blades I've laying around


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## NYWoodturner

Chris - Any progress? Are you still sending it? Trust me I understand how things can come to a screeching halt Just curious.
Scott


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## justturnin

NYWoodturner said:


> Chris - Any progress? Are you still sending it? Trust me I understand how things can come to a screeching halt Just curious.
> Scott



Hey Scott,
Thanks for the follow up. I am still working on the bevel right now and need to get some finer grit paper to get the deeper scratches out before hardening. I am also waiting on my 'F' bit to drill the holes for the 0.25" SS pins. I hope to have it done pretty quick but like you said. Life will shut me down in an instant. I did get a slight edge on it and it destroyed a 2x4 so it is a good heavy blade that can do some cutting. I will keep you updated.


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## robert flynt

Chris, Pop knife supply sells a reamer that has the end turned down so that it will fit in the pilot hole ( rivet hole in the tang) and ream out the scales to except the head of corby rivet. All you have to do and set the drill press stop to the depth you want the head go. I have one for the 1/4 and 5/16" head corby rivets but use the 1/4 the most. Makes a nice square sholder in the bottom of the sholder.


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