# A bit of Stress out there.



## Mike1950 (Jul 24, 2017)

Seen a couple threads go south in the last couple days. Too bad, most of us come here to avoid the same- stress. 
Nobody asked me to do this but I did ask permission. one condition- no more drama- This will be a calm thread, or I will make it go away. Please.
Been here a long time- there are a few that have been longer. first month we had a few goals- to grow- sell buy trade wood and have fun. Boy did we do all of them- 1000 members in 10 months. Crazy auction. 
IMO we are straying- ship without a rudder. Lots of folks conceive WB as one thing or another but this was our start.
"As the name implies, Wood Barter was conceived as a place where woodworkers can trade wood at no cost to the parties involved other than the parties' own shipping costs. Members can also buy and sell wood here at no cost to them. Members are dealing with other individual members when they engage in trades (“trade/s” include buying, selling, or trading)."
with this add:
"As the BETA site was being tested by a small group of woodworking hobbyists & professionals, it became apparent that the members also wanted a more traditional woodworking forum so in addition to being a place to trade wood, the site is also a place where woodworkers are able to discuss various topics of interest with others of like mind."
Pretty clear to me- not my words read the rules it is there.
*Wood Trading Rules*
This section is part of your Terms of Use (TOU). Violation of these rules can be grounds for revoking your membership privileges temporarily or permanently. You agree to the following rules of conduct when discussing trades with other members.


Your first step to using this site is to read these rules then start your own thread in the introduction forum and tell us at least a little about you. You cannot post in any forums until you have made an introduction.
All offers to trade, buy, or sell must include clear, high quality images of the actual items being offered. All images must be uploaded to our server. Offsite image hosts such as photobucket are not allowed. Lots with numerous pieces may be shown as a lot but must be the actual lot, and prospective buyers may ask to see more detailed pictures of any or all items no matter how many items in the lot. WB is not geared toward sales of large lots.
All trading activity must start and end in a thread in the Wood Central section in the appropriate forum. Trades initiated "behind the forum" can result in an immediate and permanent ban. Prices do not have to be listed in the post but it is highly encouraged.
_"Is Anyone Interested In...."_ type of threads to "gauge interest" are not permitted anywhere on the forum. It is either posted as for sale or trade - or not at all. WB does not allow "preselling". If you don't have possession of the wood or item do not mention it here at all.
When a member replies to your sales offer, you must honor a “first refusal” with that member before discussing a trade for that particular item/s with another member; this will be done in a chronological order. If the item/s is being offered elsewhere then that must be noted in the description, and the thread must be updated as soon as you sell the item. First Refusal is valid only in the thread where the specific item is listed for sale. First refusal only applies to the For Sale forum. WTB and For Trade forums allow the thread starter to buy from or trade with whomever he choose in no particular order
It is your responsibility to check your thread activity (as buyer OR seller) so as not to hold up the process. As a prospective buyer you can lose your position if you don't respond within 24 hours from the time of your last activity anywhere on the forum, as recorded on your profile page.
SOLICITATIONS FOR DONATIONS AND CHARITIES – For numerous and obvious reasons they are simply not allowed without prior approval.
PRIVATE MESSAGES are called Conversations with this forum software. You will automatically be given Conversation privileges after 5 posts of actual content.
Placing any contact information such as email, website url's, or phone number inside forum posts is not permitted. A link to your website is allowed in your signature line only.
No commercial external links are allowed in posts, except where you are directing someone for educational or information purposes. For example, a link to ABC Sandpaper Supplies is fine, unless you own ABC Sandpaper Supplies, then it belongs in your signature.
Local trades made with Wood Barter members are not required to be posted on the forum.

Now I do not see where there is a rule about resale- and there should not be- I have sold a lot of $1 burl pen blanks here. mostly maple and elder but there have been others. Like masur birch for a buck, Bab, coco in those boxes. Have some of those been sold for a profit- I sure hope the hell so. I sold them- I am an adult- I put price on them- somebody paid and now they are not mine. What buyer does with them is NOT my affair. Nor is it anyone else's. If we lived in Cuba- yes- we do not.... This should be simple. and I have not just sold a couple I have sold considerably more than 1000, all perfect sales but one and in the end it ended well. 

Now I know this may be long winded- I have no monetary interest here but I do have an investment of time. I like folks here, to survive I think we have to change.
Sellers: with no sellers we have no buyers- nothing to buy. so we become a woodworking forum- ehh ok change the name. Ya know I do not mean that. 2 days 2 sellers threads trashed. first one on sunday- I will be blunt- damn- get some manners- 4-5 people do not need to chime in - maybe- just maybe talk to a mod. and get the rules straight. JMO but while we are on manners and mods- some intro threads are like a police interrogation, If they are up to no good they will be found out. some intro response would have scared me off way back in 2011. JMO. but again- Mods are police- we are welcoming committee be nice. If they screw up and start selling wood in intro- let mod know- sure would not be first to screw up. laugh it off.

Responses to these 2 threads here and elsewhere make us look bad. JMO- remember this is all me. Blame no one else- if you do not like what I say. 
We will not survive if we keep going in this direction. We need more sellers- do not make it hard for them. we need more buyers- welcome them. all pretty simple words. we did all this first few years- had lots of both - maybe we should try again- or ya can tell the  to f.........off... Have a good one .

Reactions: Agree 3 | Great Post 10


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## Tclem (Jul 24, 2017)

My two cents. 
No rule on resale. That's fine. If a seller post something for a price and joe blow buys it for said price and sells it for a million dollars. So be it but if I ask joe blow for something specific and say or imply I'm going to use it for a project and get a "woodbarter" deal price since this isn't ebay then buyer should be a man of his word and use it for such project. Sure, it's his. He owns it but maybe that's why nobody will sell on here for decent prices anymore. Thats not what's making it hard on sellers. Selling for cheap prices to see your wood resold on Facebook for twice the price is. Because people are abusing the woodbarter generosity and reselling for 350%. Thats not capitalism. That's lying and cheating. Call me a democrat or whatever. 
Just my two cents. If I need to have my account deleted because I derailed a thread then so be it. Delete away.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 2


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## Mike1950 (Jul 24, 2017)

Tclem said:


> My two cents.
> No rule on resale. That's fine. If a seller post something for a price and joe blow buys it for said price and sells it for a million dollars. So be it but if I ask joe blow for something specific and say or imply I'm going to use it for a project and get a "woodbarter" deal price since this isn't ebay then buyer should be a man of his word and use it for such project. Sure, it's his. He owns it but maybe that's why nobody will sell on here for decent prices anymore. Thats not what's making it hard on sellers. Selling for cheap prices to see your wood resold on Facebook for twice the price is. Because people are abusing the woodbarter generosity and reselling for 350%. Thats not capitalism. That's lying and cheating. Call me a democrat or whatever.
> Just my two cents. If I need to have my account deleted because I derailed a thread then so be it. Delete away.



It is OK- we do not agree- I believe in markets and market forces- usually they are self limiting. we do not agree why there are fewer and fewer sellers. we chase away the ones that are too high- IN OUR OPINION and we make it difficult for those whom are cheap. IMO.


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## Tony (Jul 25, 2017)

Mike, great post and Thank You for taking the time to do it. Tony, thanks for responding with your points as well. Both of you have been around longer than me and I defer to your knowledge and experience on here. I think Mike is right in that we have made it hard on sellers here. If that is the intent of this forum then so be it. I am not a Moderator so I don't have say so, but that's my opinion. I know Kevin had strong feelings about the subject and this was his baby so he could run it as he wished. 
I think the bottom line is we ALL need to stop and think about what we type before we hit Post. For me at least, this is a place where I visit with my friends. If I never pick up another tool or touch another piece of wood in my life I would still be active on here because a lot of my friends are. We need to be more courteous to each other and respectful. Sure there will be differences of opinion and that's okay. You can think someone is charging too much for wood all you want. There is no need to post that though. If it's too high a price no one will buy it, it's that simple. Let's just all try to remember that this isn't a faceless group of people here. We all chose to join here and by and large are all friends. Treat your friends good. It's that simple. Tony

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 7 | Great Post 2


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## Lou Currier (Jul 25, 2017)

The only thing I can add is that this site was marketed as a site "for woodworkers by woodworkers" Meaning if all you were interested in doing is selling wood then this site was not for you. That is the fabric that makes this site different than all the others. We build friendships here. That is what I like most. Through the forum discussions we begin to develop a level of trust...another thing I like. So  and let's move forward.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 6 | Great Post 1


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## Ralph Muhs (Jul 25, 2017)

I can't even give wood (lumber) away on this site, but I don't care. Mostly what I have tried to sell has been inappropriate for this site. Too much or too big or not good quality. Don't care! Believe it or not, my motivation for selling or giving it away was to see it put to good use by someone making something beautiful. Mostly, I just like this site because there are lots of people who share my wood fetish. In the very near future I hope to learn how to use my new and unused lathe to make pretty round things. Maybe I can get help here. In the meantime, I just like to see the pictures of bowls and pens and tables and other projects. And I like the bs here too. Beats Facebook and twitter!!!

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 6


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## gman2431 (Jul 25, 2017)

OK ill bite... Kevin and i talked about this before because i didnt think it was right to resell after getting a deal here... he had a very valid point and the only one i will stand by and that is if the person buys the wood to resell they HAVE to add more value to it somehow ie: stabilizing it. other than that you are just taking advantage of our community of woodworkers whom are mostly not selling on a scale you do mike... when i sell something its to get a new blade or tool or help someone out, not something i do to make some cash.

Reactions: Like 6


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## gman2431 (Jul 25, 2017)

And here's the direct answer from our founder. (I really hate to drag this into this without his presence but I feel honoring what he started is key) I went back and found our old convo. 

"use of several reasons but mostly it's to try and do my part to maintain a community of woodworkers trading and selling between themselves. Not trying to make a living or even moonlighting. Even though I make a significant income selling wood, I only retail it outside of WB. I don't like to sell to people who only want to buuy it in order to take advantage of my generosity and flip it for money money without doing anything to it. Someone who adds value and sells it I have no problem with. Make something with it charge all you want even here. Stabilize it or dye it or cast it or any combo whatever as long as you add value to it you deserve to make money on it for your added value. 

We can't control what members do with it on FB groups. If someone buy my FBE at $10 BF and resells as it at $20 BF without doing anything other than reselling it yeah it pisses me off because I don't sell it at wholesale to woodworkers here for that purpose. I sell pallets of it at $10 to $12.50 BF and those guys can resell itall they want but they are paying me $3600 to $4800 at a time to get it. 

So to sum it up the two things I do not like:

1) A member buying wood from me or other members at our lower-than-non WB prices and just flipping it as if we're too stupid to know it's worthmore. That is taking advantage of the reason we sell it cheaper here - we do it as a community based kindness and for their own projects or adding value then reselling. 

2) Lying about it. 

I don't keep up with the FB groups and don't even know where most of them are. I can't and don't try to enforce this outside of WB because I haveenough hassles to deal with as it is. I know there's unscrupulous members who don't give a damn about anything other than the almighty dollar, and they are wolves in sheeps clothing. Scumbag asshats that don't need to be here. I've run a few off as you know. But in the end I can't do muchabout it other than try to foster the community spirit we have. I see it slipping away but hope itcan last a while longer before I finallt say screw it, sell the place, and move on to something else in my life. 

I hope I answered your question, and I hope youunderstand how I feel about it and why I do, if not feel free to ask I will gladly take another shot at it. Thanks for taking the time to even comment on it, very few do or even care to ask."

Reactions: Like 6 | Great Post 3


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## Mike1950 (Jul 25, 2017)

gman2431 said:


> OK ill bite... Kevin and i talked about this before because i didnt think it was right to resell after getting a deal here... he had a very valid point and the only one i will stand by and that is if the person buys the wood to resell they HAVE to add more value to it somehow ie: stabilizing it. other than that you are just taking advantage of our community of woodworkers whom are mostly not selling on a scale you do mike... when i sell something its to get a new blade or tool or help someone out, not something i do to make some cash.



so since I buy a big load- get more for less $$ because of volume. sell It cheaper- thus sell more the rules are different for me? See the thought that after I receive money for something that I still have some kind of control future use of said object just does not sit right with me. A little history- I am retired- I does this cause I am one of those nuts that believe I am what I produce- nothing more nor less. I LIKE to stay busy. Yes I am older- but still rebel at the thought of control after sale. This means the guy at the mill after he takes my cash still controls the wood in my trailer. Does your employer have control of his money after he gives it to you. If you invest wisely does he get part of profit. where is line. so I sell a lot so it is OK for folks to make money off me??? Ps I hope I have made it clear I could GIVE a Sh!t less -in fact just the opposite- if person sells and makes money- thus they are happy with buy from me and buys again. Everybody is happy. I stand against micro managing sales. always have been- always have been vocal about it. Markets- they self control- ex. chittum sells for $70 each- he is happy- read above- no sleep lost - $350 - how much did he make???- Ps None of MY biz!!! Guy takes it elsewhere- puts outrageous price on it- thinks he has gold mine- No takers but he did get trashed online- he got asked if he had sold before- answer was no. so he is out $350 gets trashed on 2 forums- PS- his for sale post is gone on FB- I assume because of strife. 
I do not want anyone to misunderstand what I think- I think this is wrong. Seems a double standard- alright to make money off my good deals ( not that I give a damn-if ya missed that above) but not someone else's. Manners folks- manners first- Honor- hell the cream always rises to the top. The dishonorable ones will be easy to ID. We have lost a lot of good sellers- for the wrong reasons. Good thing though is we cannot lose many more- there are not any left.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mike1950 (Jul 25, 2017)

gman2431 said:


> And here's the direct answer from our founder. (I really hate to drag this into this without his presence but I feel honoring what he started is key) I went back and found our old convo.
> 
> "use of several reasons but mostly it's to try and do my part to maintain a community of woodworkers trading and selling between themselves. Not trying to make a living or even moonlighting. Even though I make a significant income selling wood, I only retail it outside of WB. I don't like to sell to people who only want to buuy it in order to take advantage of my generosity and flip it for money money without doing anything to it. Someone who adds value and sells it I have no problem with. Make something with it charge all you want even here. Stabilize it or dye it or cast it or any combo whatever as long as you add value to it you deserve to make money on it for your added value.
> 
> ...



we do not agree- not your job to "Run them off" sorta sounds like anarchy to me- looks great on paper but does not work in real life. also I see no where where seller Lied. he was up front.


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## Mike1950 (Jul 25, 2017)

added poll- first poll for the .


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## Tclem (Jul 25, 2017)

For the record. I never was against any seller. I'm against buyers who mislead, lie, and abuse the generosity of woodbarter sellers and traders. That's what this ste is about. This isn't ebay. I don't care what price you post. If I don't like it. I don't buy it. I do think if a snake comes in here then he should be dealt with. Plenty have been here. Plenty have left but all this was because I called somebody out and it was a buyer. Not a seller.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## Mike1950 (Jul 25, 2017)

Tclem said:


> For the record. I never was against any seller. I'm against buyers who mislead, lie, and abuse the generosity of woodbarter sellers and traders. That's what this ste is about. This isn't ebay. I don't care what price you post. If I don't like it. I don't buy it. I do think if a snake comes in here then he should be dealt with. Plenty have been here. Plenty have left but all this was because I called somebody out and it was a buyer. Not a seller.



I am sorry- I disagree when he repriced he became a seller. you objected to that. He was fine until then. and he -to my knowledge sold Nothing. just overpriced. JMO- peace brother.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ripjack13 (Jul 25, 2017)

Mike1950 said:


> added poll- first poll for the .


agree on what? the title? maybe put in a pinpoint question for the poll. it's too vague....there's stress everywhere.


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## Tclem (Jul 25, 2017)

Mike1950 said:


> I am sorry- I disagree when he repriced he became a seller. you objected to that. He was fine until then. and he -to my knowledge sold Nothing. just overpriced. JMO- peace brother.


Ok. He was "trying" to be a seller but not on woodbarter. He was a "buyer" on woodbarter. that's where my issue is. Not where he was trying to be a seller but where he was a buyer


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## gman2431 (Jul 25, 2017)

Mike1950 said:


> so since I buy a big load- get more for less $$ because of volume. sell It cheaper- thus sell more the rules are different for me? See the thought that after I receive money for something that I still have some kind of control future use of said object just does not sit right with me. A little history- I am retired- I does this cause I am one of those nuts that believe I am what I produce- nothing more nor less. I LIKE to stay busy. Yes I am older- but still rebel at the thought of control after sale. This means the guy at the mill after he takes my cash still controls the wood in my trailer. Does your employer have control of his money after he gives it to you. If you invest wisely does he get part of profit. where is line. so I sell a lot so it is OK for folks to make money off me??? Ps I hope I have made it clear I could GIVE a Sh!t less -in fact just the opposite- if person sells and makes money- thus they are happy with buy from me and buys again. Everybody is happy. I stand against micro managing sales. always have been- always have been vocal about it. Markets- they self control- ex. chittum sells for $70 each- he is happy- read above- no sleep lost - $350 - how much did he make???- Ps None of MY biz!!! Guy takes it elsewhere- puts outrageous price on it- thinks he has gold mine- No takers but he did get trashed online- he got asked if he had sold before- answer was no. so he is out $350 gets trashed on 2 forums- PS- his for sale post is gone on FB- I assume because of strife.
> I do not want anyone to misunderstand what I think- I think this is wrong. Seems a double standard- alright to make money off my good deals ( not that I give a damn-if ya missed that above) but not someone else's. Manners folks- manners first- Honor- hell the cream always rises to the top. The dishonorable ones will be easy to ID. We have lost a lot of good sellers- for the wrong reasons. Good thing though is we cannot lose many more- there are not any left.



I think you looked to hard into what i said. I dont feel its right to make money off anyones wood unless you add value to it like to quoted text i showed from Kevin. We are crafters here on all levels from beginners to some very talented people, not a group of folks looking to make money flipping wood we bought off here.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## deltatango (Jul 25, 2017)

Mike1950 said:


> "... (I) rebel at the thought of control after sale. This means the guy at the mill after he takes my cash still controls the wood in my trailer. Does your employer have control of his money after he gives it to you. If you invest wisely does he get part of profit. where is line. I stand against micro managing sales. always have been- always have been vocal about it. Markets- they self control. I think this is wrong. We have lost a lot of good sellers- for the wrong reasons. Good thing though is we cannot lose many more- there are not any left.



Yeah, unfortunately, BOY HOWDY. Kevin and I had long discussions about the fact that WB needed to change. It's why he was developing the storefronts for sellers. Those sellers were supposed to police themselves, be their own moderators. It was expected they would be able to have greater latitude within their stores to sell the way they wanted to and that there would be a separation between those storefronts and the normal comings and goings of the main forum. People leave when there is too much control. Unfortunately, there is always a core group who lobby hard to maintain policy, even when it is killing the forum. Change won't hurt anything. Places evolve, and must do so in order to survive. If there is a constant selling cheaply back and forth, it just defeats the purpose. Something Mike said it very important to recognize, and that is that 
*the market becomes self-selecting*. That's why we have terms such as "buyer's market", "seller's market" "law of supply and demand", "what the traffic will bear", etc., etc.

Perhaps it is time to let the market become more self-selective, allow WB to be less tight fistedly controlled in regard to practices that are reasonable within the spirit of the founders looking to breathe new life into a fading community. I respectfully make this suggestion, based on my own experiences here, and with hopes that stress can be dialed back by simply letting go a little. It might be worth a try. Just saying.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Great Post 1


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## Tclem (Jul 25, 2017)

Mike. It isn't about control after the sale. No, my employer don't control my money but woodbarter and my employer are apples and oranges. You have given me deals because of this site. I don't take advantage of it. This site is unique to every other site. I am 100% for when you buy it, it is yours but I'm also for if your buddy hooked you up then you need to honor that. Alan sent me a big block of Russian olive a while back. I payed shipping. It is mine. I can do whatever but just last week I gave half of it away. Why, because I honored the good deal I got from Alan. Maybe I have an honor system than some don't. Maybe I am not going to profit on the generosity of those on this site who could be making more selling it somewhere else. 
My last post.

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 1


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## phinds (Jul 25, 2017)

I have a split personality when it comes to this. Off of WB, I'm a hard core free market capitalist but here on WB I have sold several lots of veneer for WAY below market prices and I always hope (pretty much against hope) that others will share my sense of community and give extra good prices. Some do but many don't. To be fair, I don't really care about the money when I sell the veneer, not even remotely because I have much money, which I don't but because I made a conscious decision when I started years ago that the hobby, including the web site, was intended to be revenue neutral at worst (in terms of $$$, not time) and I have managed that. Off of WB, I sold enough bowls to pay for all the exotics I bought over the years and I also sold enough of the veneer to pay for all that I bought and I still have a basement full of tens of thousands of sqft. of veneer which I sell it on eBay at low prices and here at ridiculously low prices. My intent is that it go to people who are using it for projects but I have no issue with people reselling it.

*My point is that I prefer to think of WB as a community of woodworkers helping each other out rather than a marketplace. I respect those whose opinions differ, I'm just expressing mine.*

And while I'm on this rant I would be remiss to not mention how grateful I am to the many WB members who have either directly contributed wood to the ID site or sold to me a good prices. That's the kind of community spirit that I look for here and for me it was started by Kevin when, not long after I joined early in the site's existence, he sent me a huge box of incredible box elder and wouldn't let me pay for anything but the shipping. One piece was so gorgeous that the platter I made from it (take at look at it on the site) went for $200 and Kevin was more than fine with that. My BE page is practically dedicated to him.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 3


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## Mike1950 (Jul 25, 2017)

deltatango said:


> Yeah, unfortunately, BOY HOWDY. Kevin and I had long discussions about the fact that WB needed to change. It's why he was developing the storefronts for sellers. Those sellers were supposed to police themselves, be their own moderators. It was expected they would be able to have greater latitude within their stores to sell the way they wanted to and that there would be a separation between those storefronts and the normal comings and goings of the main forum. People leave when there is too much control. Unfortunately, there is always a core group who lobby hard to maintain policy, even when it is killing the forum. Change won't hurt anything. Places evolve, and must do so in order to survive. If there is a constant selling cheaply back and forth, it just defeats the purpose. Something Mike said it very important to recognize, and that is that
> *the market becomes self-selecting*. That's why we have terms such as "buyer's market", "seller's market" "law of supply and demand", "what the traffic will bear", etc., etc.
> 
> Perhaps it is time to let the market become more self-selective, allow WB to be less tight fistedly controlled in regard to practices that are reasonable within the spirit of the founders looking to breathe new life into a fading community. I respectfully make this suggestion, based on my own experiences here, and with hopes that stress can be dialed back by simply letting go a little. It might be worth a try. Just saying.



Nice to see you Mark- long time no see. Maybe it is an age thing- we agree- more regs mean less sellers which is counter productive as far a price control. More sellers regulate themselves. More supply means better prices. Change comes hard though- usually catastrophic..

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Clay3063 (Jul 25, 2017)

I am hesitant to chime in here. I haven't been here anywhere near long enough to say much of anything. But I will say this, I found this site quite by accident. I was looking for pricing on Mesquite wood. I wanted to know what the going price for it was and how much of a market there is. What I found here was much more than what I was seeking originally. I found a family of sorts. And it's a REAL family just like in the REAL world. There's an old man or two. A young man or two. A couple of off center dudes too. It is unlike any other forum or group I have seen anywhere. And the wood I have bought here, for a very good price I might add, becomes to me something special. I have not resold any blanks I have bought here. I've given some away in the blank swap and I've given some away with the pen swap. Why? Because gifts always hold more value to me and thus cannot be "re-sold" in my own way of thinking. What I have done with some of the blanks that I have purchased is turned around and used them to craft some nice pens to sell at a profit. I ain't getting rich. But it helps pay for my hobby(ies). And I have sold a few blanks from wood that I harvested myself. Again, I try to offer the same kind of very low cost pricing that I have received from others here. Why? Because it was my understanding from the beginning that this was a place where fellows of like mind could come and swap, trade, barter and exchange items at prices not found anywhere else. Thus far it has held true. And for the few posts I have seen where someone was way out of line on pricing I have noticed that they didn't sell much. My personal thoughts on the whole thing is that if a fellow takes advantage of our family members by purchasing here because he knows the prices are cheap and then goes behind the scenes to another forum, group, or otherwise public venue and re-sells at a huge profit simply because he knew the atmosphere here is one of friends trading with friends, then he has broken covenant. Taking advantage of another person's generosity doesn't sit well with me. Never has. But I digress.
Is there stress here? I am almost certain of it. But, it doesn't have to be and won't be if we realize that most of the stress is carryover from the stress that exists all around us in this nation, even the rest of the world. This place, this forum, should be and I think is a very real example of what happens when people come together for community for the express purpose of community and loyal friendship. I am not sure but I think that is what Kevin was after when he started this place. And it actually works. It works very well. And as long as we don't allow the stress from outside to permeate the inside, we'll do just fine. We just need to recognize the source and rectify it. I haven't met any of you personally. But I feel a kinship here that is stronger than many others in situations where I have had face to face meetings and conversations. And because of that, when I do finally meet some of you, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we'll be respectful and tolerant, and as caring about one anther as we are on here. Maybe even more so. 
So I said that to say this, must we "evolve" a little on this site? Sure. Growth as a matter of factual definition automatically insinuates change. It's part of life. The one thing I do agree with is the idea of the principle behind buying cheap here just because we can and then re-selling said item for a huge profit just because we can. That's called taking advantage of a special situation that exists here and no where else that I've seen. I can't control it other than to not sell to an individual who would do that. I might do it once, but I won't do it twice unawares. And I usually won't say anything. It becomes a trust issue. When you or I or any of us becomes untrustworthy, we loose. Period. It's also a matter of integrity. In my younger years I wasn't so trust worthy. I wasn't a bad guy. I was just caught up in the same race so many others get caught up in, taking care of number one, no matter the cost. Now a days I can see what the real cost is when there is no integrity among people. And I have been working more and more on my own integrity so that even if it doesn't exist in others, it still exists in me. 
So I said all that to say this, I hope you gentlemen get this worked out. I'll help if you ask. But what we have here is unique. Very unique. And as such it has great value. More so and so much so that one really can't place a monetary value on it. You can't buy this anywhere. You can't steal it. You can't even borrow it. But it can be shared. It can be given. And it can be had. I think Kevin had this right from the beginning. And I think the gentlemen who have carried on in his place are doing a wonderful job of it. So, let's get this right. Who knows who is depending upon us to do so? God Bless you all. Have a great day. 
-Shalom

Clay

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 1 | Great Post 9


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## Tony (Jul 25, 2017)

Clay3063 said:


> I am hesitant to chime in here. I haven't been here anywhere near long enough to say much of anything. But I will say this, I found this site quite by accident. I was looking for pricing on Mesquite wood. I wanted to know what the going price for it was and how much of a market there is. What I found here was much more than what I was seeking originally. I found a family of sorts. And it's a REAL family just like in the REAL world. There's an old man or two. A young man or two. A couple of off center dudes too. It is unlike any other forum or group I have seen anywhere. And the wood I have bought here, for a very good price I might add, becomes to me something special. I have not resold any blanks I have bought here. I've given some away in the blank swap and I've given some away with the pen swap. Why? Because gifts always hold more value to me and thus cannot be "re-sold" in my own way of thinking. What I have done with some of the blanks that I have purchased is turned around and used them to craft some nice pens to sell at a profit. I ain't getting rich. But it helps pay for my hobby(ies). And I have sold a few blanks from wood that I harvested myself. Again, I try to offer the same kind of very low cost pricing that I have received from others here. Why? Because it was my understanding from the beginning that this was a place where fellows of like mind could come and swap, trade, barter and exchange items at prices not found anywhere else. Thus far it has held true. And for the few posts I have seen where someone was way out of line on pricing I have noticed that they didn't sell much. My personal thoughts on the whole thing is that if a fellow takes advantage of our family members by purchasing here because he knows the prices are cheap and then goes behind the scenes to another forum, group, or otherwise public venue and re-sells at a huge profit simply because he knew the atmosphere here is one of friends trading with friends, then he has broken covenant. Taking advantage of another person's generosity doesn't sit well with me. Never has. But I digress.
> Is there stress here? I am almost certain of it. But, it doesn't have to be and won't be if we realize that most of the stress is carryover from the stress that exists all around us in this nation, even the rest of the world. This place, this forum, should be and I think is a very real example of what happens when people come together for community for the express purpose of community and loyal friendship. I am not sure but I think that is what Kevin was after when he started this place. And it actually works. It works very well. And as long as we don't allow the stress from outside to permeate the inside, we'll do just fine. We just need to recognize the source and rectify it. I haven't met any of you personally. But I feel a kinship here that is stronger than many others in situations where I have had face to face meetings and conversations. And because of that, when I do finally meet some of you, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we'll be respectful and tolerant, and as caring about one anther as we are on here. Maybe even more so.
> So I said that to say this, must we "evolve" a little on this site? Sure. Growth as a matter of factual definition automatically insinuates change. It's part of life. The one thing I do agree with is the idea of the principle behind buying cheap here just because we can and then re-selling said item for a huge profit just because we can. That's called taking advantage of a special situation that exists here and no where else that I've seen. I can't control it other than to not sell to an individual who would do that. I might do it once, but I won't do it twice unawares. And I usually won't say anything. It becomes a trust issue. When you or I or any of us becomes untrustworthy, we loose. Period. It's also a matter of integrity. In my younger years I wasn't so trust worthy. I wasn't a bad guy. I was just caught up in the same race so many others get caught up in, taking care of number one, no matter the cost. Now a days I can see what the real cost is when there is no integrity among people. And I have been working more and more on my own integrity so that even if it doesn't exist in others, it still exists in me.
> So I said all that to say this, I hope you gentlemen get this worked out. I'll help if you ask. But what we have here is unique. Very unique. And as such it has great value. More so and so much so that one really can't place a monetary value on it. You can't buy this anywhere. You can't steal it. You can't even borrow it. But it can be shared. It can be given. And it can be had. I think Kevin had this right from the beginning. And I think the gentlemen who have carried on in his place are doing a wonderful job of it. So, let's get this right. Who knows who is depending upon us to do so? God Bless you all. Have a great day.
> ...



Clay, your sermons must be something else! You've just said, very succinctly what I've been thinking this whole time. That is probably the best post u have ever read here. The most important thing you said, for me anyway, is family. This is like a family to me in a very real sense. We need to treat each other like family. Tony

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## bamafatboy (Jul 25, 2017)

I too, love this site. I love looking at wood and anything wood related. I have bought some wood from here for troop pens. Back a few years ago I made several of them for our service men and women. I have been making pens for 8 years, have sold several, just to keep my hobby going. I have traded for more wood than I have bought. I have given away way more pens than I ever sold. I recently have ventured into making bowls and love it. I am on a limited fix income and have not tried to sell a pen this year. I have been gifting the few that I have left. Most of them my wife has claimed, she is a receptionist at a very busy vet clinic and wears a different one every day. I really enjoy looking at all the nice art that is made from wood. I have been working with wood for a long time and until I started making pens, never realized how many species of wood there are. Saying all this to say that I really enjoy this site and am proud to be allowed a part of it.

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## The100road (Jul 25, 2017)

Here are some thoughts from a newer member- Almost every member I've encountered has been very friendly and helpful. Almost every question I have has been answered. I have been given VERY generous trades and sales. I am motivated and blown away from seeing other woodworkers talents. This is what keeps me coming back.

When I look at post from years back it does seem as though higher quality wood was posted available more often. Do I wish that would return? Yes. Do I wish there were more sellers at reasonable prices? Yes. But at the same time I love how @NYWoodturner calls people out for prices being to high. It literally has saved me a couple times and when I did some research found that he was correct. It's almost like he's protecting me. Haha.

I recently sold a few pieces that I got from a member on here because I didn't need the quantity I thought I did. I sold them for slightly higher then what I bought them for but what will still agreed was a fair price. I feel guilty. But at the same time I am saving that money to buy another item from a different member on here. So in the long run That good deal is still helping me continue to learn and expand my woodworking in which I probably wouldn't be able to do without that original great deal. And I'm hoping that was his intent. 

Some people might think the new sellers or members need to earn the trust of others to become part of the family. Some are strictly here for business. I think a way can be found to make both happy.

You all are doing a great job. Keep it up.

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## pinky (Jul 25, 2017)

Any site that would allow me to be a member, I don't want any part of!

Seriously, I'm a firm believer in free market. I see wood priced way higher than I would pay all the time. I don't comment, just move on. I do agree it is classless to take hospitality given from this site and profit from it,  but this world is filled with all types of people. Not worth getting upset about. I think those types don't usually last long here.

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## CWS (Jul 25, 2017)

I love it here. I've even been called to the office once. I used to visit 4 or 5 forums a day, now I only visit one. I appreciate the time and effort the moderators spend to make it happen.

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## Tony (Jul 25, 2017)

I've been thinking about this all day. I THINK most of us are on the same page but not understanding what each other is saying. This is what I've come up with, hopefully this helps. I think there is a lot of anger and hurt feelings right now and I don't like it one bit. It's like being a child when your parents fight. We need to reconcile this. 

Most people here know I make cutting boards. Let's say @Mike1950 PM's me and says, " Hey Tony, your cutting boards are $50 right?". I say yes, he says send me 6. Now, if he takes them and sells them for $200 a piece, that's great with me. I got my asking price, all is well.

The other example is @Tclem PM's me and says, "Hey man, I need 6 of your cutting boards, can we work on a better deal buddy?". Now, I'm assuming he needs them for Christmas presents, or maybe family gifts at a party. Normally I sell them for $50 each, but I give them to him for $25 each, plus I probably throw in an extra one for him. If I find out later he sold them for $200 each I would be mighty unhappy and that would be the last time i deal with him. I would feel taken advantage of in that situation. 

Maybe I'm wrong, Lord knows it happens a lot, but I think this is how the majority of people here feel. Just my thoughts guys. Tony

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## Mike1950 (Jul 25, 2017)

Tony said:


> I've been thinking about this all day. I THINK most of us are on the same page but not understanding what each other is saying. This is what I've come up with, hopefully this helps. I think there is a lot of anger and hurt feelings right now and I don't like it one bit. It's like being a child when your parents fight. We need to reconcile this.
> 
> Most people here know I make cutting boards. Let's say @Mike1950 PM's me and says, " Hey Tony, your cutting boards are $50 right?". I say yes, he says send me 6. Now, if he takes them and sells them for $200 a piece, that's great with me. I got my asking price, all is well.
> 
> ...




That sounds great- But I think my bigger point has been missed, No big deal. @deltatango understands what my point is. Maybe I did not write/think it out well or maybe it is a generational thing. I will leave this for a while- couple days- then I will delete.

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## Tony (Jul 25, 2017)

Mike1950 said:


> That sounds great- But I think my bigger point has been missed, No big deal. @deltatango understands what my point is. Maybe I did not write/think it out well or maybe it is a generational thing. I will leave this for a while- couple days- then I will delete.



I'm trying to understand Mike. I totally get your point about how we have not made it easy on sellers here and I think we need to work on that. I personally see nothing wrong with people who are just sellers here, I feel if they are overpriced they won't make any money and move on. Tony

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## Tony (Jul 25, 2017)

Mike1950 said:


> That sounds great- But I think my bigger point has been missed, No big deal. @deltatango understands what my point is. Maybe I did not write/think it out well or maybe it is a generational thing. I will leave this for a while- couple days- then I will delete.



And i disagree with you in that I think it IS a big deal. I strongly feel we need to fix this, and all be on the same page, as much as a group of people can anyway.

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## Alan Sweet (Jul 25, 2017)

Just a couple of observations.

1. 85-90% of the members here are honest, trust worthy woodworkers. Mostly hobby oriented or break even. There are some BS artists, scam runners and regular rip off jerks here. But, thats life. Don't regulate the site out of existence because of grade B trash.

2. A few years back, selling was mostly in the small lot category and focused mainly in raw materials. Not as much these days. Lot more members selling "things" or larger ticket items. I would never have joined if I thought it was another merchandise mart.

3. If some one is on here to "use" the members as means to make $$, please leave. Our feathers are different.

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## Mike1950 (Jul 25, 2017)

Alan Sweet said:


> Just a couple of observations.
> 
> 1. 85-90% of the members here are honest, trust worthy woodworkers. Mostly hobby oriented or break even. There are some BS artists, scam runners and regular rip off jerks here. But, thats life. Don't regulate the site out of existence because of grade B trash.
> 
> ...


Back when we had original rep rating, i was first to hit 100. @SENC made a thread about it. Long time ago. I never sold any wood on line till i joined here. Ykkes, look at me now a wood whore. The only way to keep sellers is get off their backs. If they too spendy do not buy. Be an infofmed buyer. The knowledge will serve you well.

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## gman2431 (Jul 25, 2017)

Mike1950 said:


> Back when we had original rep rating, i was first to hit 100. @SENC made a thread about it. Long time ago. I never sold any wood on line till i joined here. Ykkes, look at me now a wood whore. The only way to keep sellers is get off their backs. If they too spendy do not buy. Be an infofmed buyer. The knowledge will serve you well. But finge



Ok so I have to ask... You say be an informed buyer. What about all the new guys whom aren't informed? Should they get ripped off until they learn? No... That's why the community is here to help prevent that.

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## Sidecar (Jul 25, 2017)

Well fellas here's a true rookies view on what I've read here and bear in mind I'm about a quick as a work ox.
I see a lot of neat pieces of wood for sell here and it seems the seller always post a price , so help me here if the seller puts a price on his goods and parts with it how can the seller be unhappy if someone has a better outlet for the goods and turns it ? 
Now I understand if someone misleads the seller and misleads intentions of the wood being sold and a seller gives a buyer a break , seems like that be burn'n a bridge.
So help me understand .......

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## Alan Sweet (Jul 25, 2017)

gman2431 said:


> Ok so I have to ask... You say be an informed buyer. What about all the new guys whom aren't informed? Should they get ripped off until they learn? No... That's why the community is here to help prevent that.



Two sides there... "Prevent" meaning making sure it does not happen... Bad karma and State run. "Prevent" ... educate the members with resources so they can make their own decisions ... Good karma and individual oriented.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## gman2431 (Jul 25, 2017)

The problem with your second prevent is it leaves chances for people to get burned. Then as stated here before when people get burned the name of Wood Barter gets tarnished. Once you let a snake in your garden more are to follow... 

Thats about all I got folks and am gonna walk away from this one. I've said my peace and hopefully not pissed anyone off to badly. I strongly believe in following what was set forth well before I was here and if now under new control that changes I will gladly conform.


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## Mike1950 (Jul 25, 2017)

gman2431 said:


> The problem with your second prevent is it leaves chances for people to get burned. Then as stated here before when people get burned the name of Wood Barter gets tarnished. Once you let a snake in your garden more are to follow...
> 
> Thats about all I got folks and am gonna walk away from this one. I've said my peace and hopefully not pissed anyone off to badly. I strongly believe in following what was set forth well before I was here and if now under new control that changes I will gladly conform.



Obviously our methods are effective. We are protecting buyers. There are no sellers so buyers cannot get screwed. I disagree with this method but agree it is effective. 
My job in life is NOT protecting the mass's. I will teach though. 
My take is we do not want sellers. We want yutz's that will do the work and sell at price group decides is fair.... good luck.


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## Mike1950 (Jul 25, 2017)

gman2431 said:


> The problem with your second prevent is it leaves chances for people to get burned. Then as stated here before when people get burned the name of Wood Barter gets tarnished. Once you let a snake in your garden more are to follow...
> 
> Thats about all I got folks and am gonna walk away from this one. I've said my peace and hopefully not pissed anyone off to badly. I strongly believe in following what was set forth well before I was here and if now under new control that changes I will gladly conform.


Tarnished, you ignore the fact that we are tarnished. No sellers for a reason. I do not agree we should let people get screwed but we aint wood cops and i do not agree with safe space mentality. Just keeps people weak.


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## The100road (Jul 25, 2017)

I may be wrong, but my thought about woodbarterer wasn't so sellers can come here and make a profit. Isn't it so woodworkers can buy and trade wood at reasonable prices? If the site is tarnished because it keeps crazy markups down then I am okay with that. I haven't had a problem finding the wood I'm after on here. 

I think if the site let these "high profit" sellers in then it would loose more members then it gains. We already know where to buy expensive wood. This place is different and I like it.

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## Mike1950 (Jul 25, 2017)

well- rereading all the posts- seems free for all on sellers if somebody thinks they are out of line seems to be OK. Nice to know there is somebody watching out out there..... I will reread tomorrow. disgusted at the moment and it clouds my judgement....


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## DKMD (Jul 25, 2017)

I've resisted posting on this thread, but I've had a few adult beverages now...

Mike, I guess I don't see 'buyers' and 'sellers' on the site. I see a lot of good people who may do both... or neither. I see an occasional jerk. I see really good people who have an occasional bad moment/bad day.

I see a lot of talented artists and a lot of hungry newcomers. I see people who post and trade, and I see(or don't see) folks who prefer to hang in the background.

I see hundreds of good natured posts. I see people who encourage others, people who joke/tease, and folks who provide useful advice. I see an occasional post that could be worded better, and rarely, I see a post that shouldn't have been posted at all.

I don't think anyone has suggested a free-for-all on wood sellers(or any other group), and I don't agree with name calling or derogatory comments. Obviously, the thread that I believe inspired this thread could have done with a hell of a lot more civility. It's not the first time, and unfortunately, it won't be the last time someone sticks a foot in their mouth or a head up their derrière. For the most part, I think the members do a good job of minimizing those instances.

I don't see that the sky is falling. This isn't the first time I've read some doom and gloom prediction about WB, and it seems about as likely now as when I read the same stuff several years ago.

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## SENC (Jul 25, 2017)

DKMD said:


> I see an occasional jerk.


Well, I wasn't going to comment, but since you called me out...

I'll have to go digging for the threads that got feathers ruffled, but read this thread with interest and have a few observations;
1 - it says a lot, to me, that people on this forum care enough about the forum and each other to discuss disagreements openly and politely and with very little of the "I'll take my toys and leave" - so this thread reminds me that both the core principles and core participants on this site are solid;
2 - having said that, I've frequently felt we (as a community) tended to stretch buyer protection too far - I'm 100% on board with protecting against scammers, etc., but always thought attempts to protect against pricing go too far. I've paid more than market for products and services here (sometimes knowingly, sometimes not), but I've never paid more than something was worth to me at that moment - value should be left to the seller and buyer. I've seen one exception I support - when a knowledgeable member offers a seller advice on pricing when the seller makes it obvious they don't know whether their price is appropriate - that looks and smells like education, and that is a good thing;
3 - there are plenty of "friends and family" discounts here, and I do think it is respectful to honor those by not taking advantage of them - but I don't think we need a lot of rules or policing - abusers become pretty apparent pretty quickly and don't get such deals for long;
4 - I knew @Tclem was a democrat, I just knew it. Probably one of them long-haired hippie-type pinko types who shaved his head as a disguise.

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## Lou Currier (Jul 26, 2017)

@SENC I. Couldn't decide to use the "great post" imoji or the "funny" imoji

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Lou Currier (Jul 26, 2017)

I probably have been thinking of this most the night, because that's how I am...to @Mike1950 I see your side, you look at it from a sellers point of view and there is nothing wrong with that. What is different about you is that you are not only a seller but you are a woodworker, you add value to this community.

What I think the original intent of this site was that they did not want it to be just a market place for people to just sell wood...(my interpretation.) However a change was taking place to address this and that is the store fronts...this is where someone who only wants to sell can advertise their product. It didn't really get off the ground because of an untimely event that was very unfortunate. 

What this forum has developed into is a community, that is more like a family that tries to look out for each other...typically when sellers post an item that is priced too high the message is usually sent by no interest. The particular case that started all this was the seller that was not only too high but was ridiculously high and his blanks had stickers on them. The response to that post is rare but I saw it coming. Sorta like "you can't come in here and treat my family like that!" 

Sure we could use more sellers on here but if all they want to do is sell and not add to the community then use the store front. Right now if someone is looking for a specific wood you quickly see the posts directing them to certain members like you. You have built a trusted reputation and the community gladly sends them your way. If it's tools they want we know where to direct them for that and so on. 

There is no other forum out there like this. This place is unique. I have met and communicate with more people that I would call a friend then I do in an around my physical community. It's hard to develop trust in the digital community and this forum fosters that. 

That's the best I can add in hopes that we can move forward from this and carry on...there, now that I got that out of my head I will try to get another hour of sleep before I have to go slave for $ so I can buy more wood

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## Clay3063 (Jul 26, 2017)

Lou Currier said:


> I probably have been thinking of this most the night, because that's how I am...to @Mike1950 I see your side, you look at it from a sellers point of view and there is nothing wrong with that. What is different about you is that you are not only a seller but you are a woodworker, you add value to this community.
> 
> What I think the original intent of this site was that they did not want it to be just a market place for people to just sell wood...(my interpretation.) However a change was taking place to address this and that is the store fronts...this is where someone who only wants to sell can advertise their product. It didn't really get off the ground because of an untimely event that was very unfortunate.
> 
> ...



EXACTLY.


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## deltatango (Jul 26, 2017)

So what's ironic here is that while everyone is being all kommbiyaabout protecting each other and having everybody's backs, it means that very little in the way of "fresh meat" can come in to a closed loop that it is without running a gauntlet that I believe runs a lot of people off before they get a chance to offer their stuff for sale. Once again, back to Mike's original free marjet premise that the market would be self selecting, meaning that the participants would either buy or not buy based on the various factors that come into play. IMHO the main constituency is so overly concerned about getting great deals that it fails to recognize that no individual selling at these friends and family rates could possibly survive, meaning make a living, literally giving wood away.
The storefronts were meant to solve a very important issue here, which is to be able to have an unregulated market which would by virtue of the rules that automatically govern free trade would operate in a real world setting which could be of immense benefit to everyone, buyers and sellers alike. When you go into one of the storefronts, you are faced with real world buying decisions. When you buy something from the storefront, there are no strings attached, and you take it or leave it. Get a good deal and you can do as you please with what you got without worrying that you might offend someone by making a profit reselling on the normal forum. Look, the wood has got to come from somewhere. Why not here? My two cents. I never sold a piece of wood here. I busted my #@^ and gave a lot away. I participated and contributed, but the times I tried to open a dialogue about selling highly prized wood, for a reasonable profit, I was mugged, so I just quit trying to open a conversation about it. When I lived in the North, many years ago, people called me the burl king. I have a great deal of higly prized burl, but I won't work for free cutting it up and spend countless hours to just give it away because everyone is so worried about getting ripped off. Instead, no benefits. I can't/won't sell my wood here, and you can't/won't be able to buy my wood here under the present system. As I said, Kevin and I discussed the storefront concept at length and it's plain to see that it was a project near and dear to his heart. I urge you guys to carefully consider implementing the plan he had in mind, and when you visit a storefront, if you don't like the prices, you just don't buy. If you feel you have paid too much, you don't go back. This is the way a free market self-selects. Good luck with all of this. If I have offended anyone with straight talk, not my intention, but I feel this is for everyone's benefit. Have the best of both worlds. No one is threatening the status quo here. It is just implementing a plan that was about to be put in place.

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## Tony (Jul 26, 2017)

deltatango said:


> So what's ironic here is that while everyone is being all kommbiyaabout protecting each other and having everybody's backs, it means that very little in the way of "fresh meat" can come in to a closed loop that it is without running a gauntlet that I believe runs a lot of people off before they get a chance to offer their stuff for sale. Once again, back to Mike's original free marjet premise that the market would be self selecting, meaning that the participants would either buy or not buy based on the various factors that come into play. IMHO the main constituency is so overly concerned about getting great deals that it fails to recognize that no individual selling at these friends and family rates could possibly survive, meaning make a living, literally giving wood away.
> The storefronts were meant to solve a very important issue here, which is to be able to have an unregulated market which would by virtue of the rules that automatically govern free trade would operate in a real world setting which could be of immense benefit to everyone, buyers and sellers alike. When you go into one of the storefronts, you are faced with real world buying decisions. When you buy something from the storefront, there are no strings attached, and you take it or leave it. Get a good deal and you can do as you please with what you got without worrying that you might offend someone by making a profit reselling on the normal forum. Look, the wood has got to come from somewhere. Why not here? My two cents. I never sold a piece of wood here. I busted my #@^ and gave a lot away. I participated and contributed, but the times I tried to open a dialogue about selling highly prized wood, for a reasonable profit, I was mugged, so I just quit trying to open a conversation about it. When I lived in the North, many years ago, people called me the burl king. I have a great deal of higly prized burl, but I won't work for free cutting it up and spend countless hours to just give it away because everyone is so worried about getting ripped off. Instead, no benefits. I can't/won't sell my wood here, and you can't/won't be able to buy my wood here under the present system. As I said, Kevin and I discussed the storefront concept at length and it's plain to see that it was a project near and dear to his heart. I urge you guys to carefully consider implementing the plan he had in mind, and when you visit a storefront, if you don't like the prices, you just don't buy. If you feel you have paid too much, you don't go back. This is the way a free market self-selects. Good luck with all of this. If I have offended anyone with straight talk, not my intention, but I feel this is for everyone's benefit. Have the best of both worlds. No one is threatening the status quo here. It is just implementing a plan that was about to be put in place.



Mark, I think you are 100% right. We are a tight-knit group that makes it difficult for new members to jump into, and that needs to change. However, nobody has tried to open a store front. I do agree that is a great solution to the problem, but nobody is doing it. I agree wholeheartedly that free market is a real world situation that requires the buyer to know what they are looking at and decide if it's worth it to them to buy. We are all adults here and should be able to make our own decisions and live with them. So how about Mark, open a storefront and try it? I've missed seeing you on here, I believe you have a ton of useful knowledge to contribute and some wood that we would like to have an opportunity to buy. Tony

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## deltatango (Jul 26, 2017)

Tony said:


> Mark, I think you are 100% right. We are a tight-knit group that makes it difficult for new members to jump into, and that needs to change. However, nobody has tried to open a store front. I do agree that is a great solution to the problem, but nobody is doing it. I agree wholeheartedly that free market is a real world situation that requires the buyer to know what they are looking at and decide if it's worth it to them to buy. We are all adults here and should be able to make our own decisions and live with them. So how about Mark, open a storefront and try it? I've missed seeing you on here, I believe you have a ton of useful knowledge to contribute and some wood that we would like to have an opportunity to buy. Tony



I'll think about it Tony. Thanks for the invitation. Man, I have been so busy with making movies lately that I couldn't do it if I wanted to right now. I've been collaborating with artists around the world and it has taken a lot of time and energy. Maybe when things slow down, and maybe when there there is more of a consensus, actually. Frankly, to be the one who jumps out there in this climate, is a bit more than risky. I had my chance back in the beginning, and that has left a bit of a sour taste, so right now, I'll think about it for the future when things settle down.

Thanks Tony. - Mark

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## The100road (Jul 26, 2017)

Is this scenario legit or am I just making this up in my head?

We have one,two or three sellers selling wood for say $1.00ea. Very fair price and everyone is happy.

10 more sellers come and all decide to sell for $3.00 each. Doesn't that make 13 members happy and about 100 others unhappy?

The other members already know where to buy wood for $3.00 each so there is no point in buying from woodbarter?

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## SENC (Jul 26, 2017)

Seems unlikely to me. In most cases, more sellers and more supply means lower prices. Ie., as soon as the 10 new sellers realized three others are already selling for $1, they will either decide to go to (or below) that level or they will decide not to sell here (or to just let their stuff sit until a willing buyer comes along). All of that is a win for buyers and traders (more selection and better prices).

If you are suggesting the possibility that the old 3 sellers would raise their prices to match the new 10, the only 2 reasons I can come up with that they were below market are:
1 - they want to offer friends and family type pricing on WB, in which case new higher priced sellers aren't likely to influence their price; or
2 - they didn't know the market price was $3 rather than $1, in which case we shouod want them to increase (we shouldn't want buyers taking advantage anymore than we want sellers taking advantage, right?) - to this point, I can think of several times when a member has suggested to a seller that they're under market. In some cases the seller has increased their ask, in others they've "taken the loss".

I, for one, never understood the need or desire to segregate sellers - it always seemed to me we should welcome all sellers who want to participate - those just stopping in to sell at a premium or truly commercial businesses are not likely to stick around long as they can find other places to turn more volume, whereas those that become contributing members will provide more wood opportunities for the rest of us.




The100road said:


> Is this scenario legit or am I just making this up in my head?
> 
> We have one,two or three sellers selling wood for say $1.00ea. Very fair price and everyone is happy.
> 
> ...

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## The100road (Jul 26, 2017)

Thanks @SENC I can see that side as well. 

I was just thinking that woodbarter has set a precedent of below market prices and the current sellers don't want to rock the boat but the new ones wood. 

I don't really have any backup. Just kind of thinking out loud.

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## Mike1950 (Jul 26, 2017)

SENC said:


> Seems unlikely to me. In most cases, more sellers and more supply means lower prices. Ie., as soon as the 10 new sellers realized three others are already selling for $1, they will either decide to go to (or below) that level or they will decide not to sell here (or to just let their stuff sit until a willing buyer comes along). All of that is a win for buyers and traders (more selection and better prices).
> 
> If you are suggesting the possibility that the old 3 sellers would raise their prices to match the new 10, the only 2 reasons I can come up with that they were below market are:
> 1 - they want to offer friends and family type pricing on WB, in which case new higher priced sellers aren't likely to influence their price; or
> ...





The100road said:


> Thanks @SENC I can see that side as well.
> 
> I was just thinking that woodbarter has set a precedent of below market prices and the current sellers don't want to rock the boat but the new ones wood.
> 
> I don't really have any backup. Just kind of thinking out loud.



Henry is right- market sets price. Ex: All rosewood prices are going up- why? CITES current supply is drying up and will continue to rise. supply and demand. Just Life. henry is right- more sellers more competition- better prices. Sellers are not evil. we all participate in same market.

Wood barter is NOT the only place to find deals- Obviously anybody that sells here or elsewhere buys cheaper and sells for more. Or does not do it for long.

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## Tony (Jul 26, 2017)

I am for letting sellers in. As Henry and Mike have both said, market and demand set price. If they are too high, nobody but a fool will buy from them. Tony

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## CWS (Jul 26, 2017)

CWS said:


> I love it here. I've even been called to the office once. I used to visit 4 or 5 forums a day, now I only visit one. I appreciate the time and effort the moderators spend to make it happen.


What I said still works for me.

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## SENC (Jul 26, 2017)

Tony said:


> I am for letting sellers in. As Henry and Mike have both said, market and demand set price. If they are too high, nobody but a fool will buy from them. Tony


First Keller calls me out for being a jerk and now you call me out as a fool!




I think you are all getting to know me too well.

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## Eric Rorabaugh (Jul 26, 2017)

I don't have a dog in this fight but have been reading and want to say something. I am very new here and everyone has been GREAT to me! I didn't feel like I wasn't "wanted" in the old group. I was met with open arms. This is the only forum that I look at so I don't know how others work and don't care. I am thankful that we can discuss our opinions/differences hopefully without someone taking offense and leaving forever. IMO on the buy/sell higher deal, I've always held myself to the saying "pay it forward"! If someone gives me something, after I'm done with it or used what I need, give what's left to someone else to enjoy. I didn't pay for it so I shouldn't make $$ off it. Just my opinion. Hope I didn't offend anyone.

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## rocky1 (Jul 27, 2017)

There's a few sellers Kevin booted, for no other reason than "they were here only to sell wood; they weren't wood workers" that I'd really like to see back. They offered great products, at not ridiculous prices; maybe a little higher than Wood Barter prices, but not really out of line. They sold a lot of wood, to a lot of folks, myself included; but one day you woke up and they were simply gone, only to find they'd been banned. Not because they were gouging anyone, not because of any underhanded deals, not for any reason other than the fact that they didn't show the occasional picture of something they made in their shop last weekend. And, some even did that on a regular basis, they just rubbed the little Irishman the wrong way.

The attitude toward a few new comers and sellers needs to go away guys, one or two people pointing out, "your prices are high", or "you need to make a few posts before trying to sell wood for below market prices", etc. is enough. Not sure why the gang mentality happens on the net but it does. It's not just here; it happens everywhere.

Mike very good points made, we do need more sellers, we need to let the market establish their prices. If they're too high, they won't sell much. If they're offering less than quality woods, they won't sell much, well except to Tony for cutting boards, after he cleans his shop and his wife let's him buy more.

The misisiiisssiissipian made some good points to though, and didn't misiisisssiispell most of them this time! We do need to respect and honor the bargains we receive from members here to an extent, we don't need others coming in here buying up goodies at terrific deal prices strictly to resell. Law of supply and demand kicks in there also, more demand than supply, prices go up.

Doc... we need to get together some time. I like philosophical drunks!! We could have fun!!

Henry, you did pretty good too. As did Clay, Mark, and others.

Wood Barter isn't changing guys, it is evolving. Change has already taken place with Kevin's untimely loss, we're simply adapting to that change. All forums evolve over time, all groups evolve over time, as they age, grow, mature; adapting to changes that affect the forum/group; it's a natural process in web forums and other groups as well. The secret is figuring out what changes need to be made and assuring they are made, so one does not evolve into non-existence. And, this discussion is a step in that direction.

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## Schroedc (Jul 27, 2017)

I do want to caution folks on assuming why some sellers were banned from the site. Kevin didn't air dirty laundry much and in some of the cases there were reasons you folks wouldn't have seen. I'm not going to put the reasons out there (I was privy to a few of them as a moderator) but in some cases it was more than just what you'd assume.

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## SENC (Jul 27, 2017)

... and those he really wanted to penalize for transgressions he made moderators.

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## ripjack13 (Jul 27, 2017)

You cut me Henry, you cut me deep.....

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## vegas urban lumber (Jul 27, 2017)

SENC said:


> ... and those he really wanted to penalize for transgressions he made moderators.



i got a thorough a$$ chewing from kevin when i first started here, because i was giving to much verbiage to wanting to sell chamise burl when i got some processed. hadn't even tried to sell any and was still called on the carpet for talking about it. I learned a lesson about the level of participation that the group expects from someone in order to fit in the fold as part of the community. in other words all here seam to keep a weary eye on newcomers expecting participation, engagement, trades and purchases along with their selling. that is a good way to level the playing field and keep the rifraff out. i have found several good customers here(sold wood in shapes i would have never imagined) and bought a fair amount of wood that my brother turns into knife scales. seems to be working well for me. but i as well now keep a weary eye on the new snipes who just don't get the culture or haven't read the rules.

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## CWS (Jul 28, 2017)

I was called to office once for a negative post. Got a pm and with the class of a proud captain he explained where I went wrong. Man was a great leader and I think of him often

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## SENC (Jul 28, 2017)

ripjack13 said:


> You cut me Henry, you cut me deep.....

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