# Cherry Stain Question



## chicago (Mar 18, 2015)

I am building some pantry doors and the boss wants them to match the color of our cabinet doors which are cherry. My questions are these:

Q1: Is there a neutral finish that can be used on the raw door stock which will enable the cherry stain to cover evenly?

Q2: I am planning on using poplar for the doors. Is that a good choice for taking the cherry stain?

I have never ever liked staining anything, but the boss is waving the frying pan at me, so I have no choice. Here is a photo of our cabinets which may help.

Thanks!


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## Charles Neil (Mar 19, 2015)

I have refrained from answering this because the product you need I sell, and I dont feel comfortable promoting my own product, but if you want poplar to look like cherry we can do that, however hard maple is better, I will walk you thru this, with Kevins blessings, but again I just dont like promoting myself.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Schroedc (Mar 19, 2015)

@Kevin - Can you weigh in on this?

Reactions: Like 1 | Thank You! 1


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## Kevin (Mar 19, 2015)

Colin thanks for tagging me.



Charles Neil said:


> I have refrained from answering this because the product you need I sell, and I dont feel comfortable promoting my own product, but if you want poplar to look like cherry we can do that, however hard maple is better, I will walk you thru this, with Kevins blessings, but again I just dont like promoting myself.



Neil you can't help the fact that you sell the product he needs. I'd like to see you post more and when you do we all benefit. Feel free to promote your products when you feel they're what someone needs. Your knowledge alone is payment enough for what little advertising you might get here.

@Charles Neil

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 4


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## chicago (Mar 20, 2015)

I have done some more research on this and what I have learned is that I should seal the poplar first. The recommended sealer being shellac.

As to the use of poplar, I am using that because it is somewhat light in weight and I happen to have enough for this project on hand. 

I am looking forward to hearing what Charles has to say on this.

Thanks!


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## Charles Neil (Mar 20, 2015)

We have a blotch control we developed, For years I used Thinned shellac, the problem was it was never consistent, meaning If I did a 1/2 lb cut, it was fine on one board but too little or too much on another . Ours works best under a water base dye, but will work under an oil as well , Here is a you tube of the product , and I assure you there is no trick photography, it just works. We have been selling it about 5 years now, just Google Charles Neil Blotch Control 

also here is a blog I wrote that will explain more https://intheworkshop.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/applying-dyes-stains-over-my-blotch-control-prestain/

you tube ......... 




My website http://www.cn-woodworking.com/

I can also help you with the color , would need to have you email me a better photo if possible, this looks like a light brown color

Reactions: +Karma 1


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## chicago (Mar 20, 2015)

@Charles Neil 

Wow! Your pre-stain conditioner appears to be just what I need. Thank you very much for the video and all the info you so kindly provided.

I was on your website and was ready to purchase your product, but could not see the volume (or product coverage) of the container. Perhaps I'm blind or your web designer overlooked that vital bit of info?

My two doors are each 37" x 80" which equals out to approximately 82 ft-squared for both doors. Sufficient conditioner to cover that square-footage would only be enough for one coat and will not get it for me. So I'm thinking that I would need enough of your product to cover approximately 170 square-feet. If you can tell me how much each container will cover I will take it from there.

I will send you a few more color corrected images per your request. Which of your emails should I send them to? 

Also, I noticed that you promote General Finishes which is great because it is their gel stains that I wish to use on these doors. Once you get the photos perhaps you can guide me on the correct gel stain? From what I saw on General's website, Georgian Cherry looks like what I need, but I will let you make the call.

Again - Thank you! for taking your time to help me.

P.S. From your video I had you pegged as a Texan, but guess not. Ha!


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## chicago (Mar 20, 2015)

@ Colin
@Kevin 

Thank you very much for allowing Charles to weigh in on my question. As I mentioned at the top, I am no fan of staining, so I can use all the help I can get.

He is a great resource.

Thanks again!!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kevin (Mar 20, 2015)

chicago said:


> Thank you very much for allowing Charles to weigh in on my question.



I don't really have much of a choice. He's one of my few woodworking heroes. The man is an encyclopedia. Don't tell him though or he'll get a big head.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Charles Neil (Mar 20, 2015)

You need one quart of the concentrate, here is my email , email me, if ya friend of Kevins ya cant be all bad, but If I get hacked, I will surely be in Texas, Charles.cnw(at)msn.com . I never give my direct email , but I trust Kevin and this gang, BTW Kevin , as to the big head thing, do the initials KMA ring a bell ....

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kevin (Mar 20, 2015)

Neil I took the @ symbol out so maybe spam harvesters won't collect it as easy. 

Yes KMA isn't that one of those phrases you have tried to help make me understand and I never can grasp the concept?

Reactions: Like 1


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## JR Custom Calls (Mar 20, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Yes KMA isn't that one of those phrases you have tried to help make me understand and I never can grasp the concept?


Pucker up...

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## chicago (Mar 20, 2015)

Pucker up? KMA? Boy, I'm really starting to learn all about staining from you guys.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## ripjack13 (Mar 20, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Colin thanks for tagging me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm ripjack13 and I approve of this message.

Really though...He is a wealth of info and it's so good to have him here.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Charles Neil (Mar 21, 2015)

I have tried to explain it , but to no avail , you are from Texas , that explains alot ..


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## Charles Neil (Mar 21, 2015)

ok guys, so you want to learn a little about finishing, here is a link to register for my on line class, http://cnwoodworking.squarespace.com/finishing-class-log-in/?returnUrl=/

use the name "guest" and pass word is "oneweek".... this will give you a week to check out some subjects you may have issues with ... My treat , hope it helps


once you have registered this is the actual finishing class, http://cnwoodworking.squarespace.com/finishing-with-charles-neil/

hope all this works

Reactions: Like 1 | Thank You! 1 | Way Cool 2


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## chicago (Mar 21, 2015)

@Charles Neil

Thanks for the invite. I'm in.

Just ordered the concentrate per your instructions. Will send more photos later today if the clouds open up and I can get some light in the kitchen.

Appreciate the help.


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## Charles Neil (Mar 21, 2015)

hope you folks didn't miss this , its not an invite, its my on line finishing class, free to you, get some pop corn and your favorite beverage ( adult preferred) , and settle in, I do however suggest the "adult beverage", cause you cant stand me for very long with out it. Thats just been my experience

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Charles Neil (Mar 24, 2015)

So how we doing on the doors.. got them done and hung ?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## chicago (Apr 24, 2015)

Charles Neil said:


> So how we doing on the doors.. got them done and hung ?



Sorry I missed your post. I've been hard at it.

Did a lot of testing and this is my process and what I've learned so far.

1 - Sand the stock well to remove any and all high ridges caused by the figure;
2 - Apply your blotch control and let dry. Buff with 600x LIGHTLY;
3 - Apply another coat and let dry overnight (just to be certain it is dry). Buff with 800x LIGHTLY;
4 - Dust off with my air compressor;
5 - Apply first coat of gel stain and let dry well;
6 - Repeat #5;
7 - Repeat #5;
8 - Apply very thin mix of Garnet shellac (my personal mixture);
9 - Repeat the shellac as necessary.
10 - Tell the Boss I am finally done!

As to the mix I have found that matches our cherry cabinets is: 2 parts Lt. Brown and 1 part Vintage Cherry. But - this only matches if I coat the board three (3) times with the mix. I tried a lot of different mixes and this is the only one that really matched the doors. The Garnet shellac seemed to add that 'final touch', but that could all just be wishful thinking on my part. At any rate, the Boss was happy and that means I get to eat the table again. I hate being growled at by my dog when I try to eat out of her bowl.

Back to my process - I have always buffed my shellac after each application but found that doing so 'revealed' the high spots of the wood if I was not careful. So, because of this I sand well (I have never been a believer in sanding. I always fininsh with my planes.) before I begin applying your pre-blotch control to remove these high spots because just buffing the shellac slightly with very fine sandpaper seemed to make these high spots - lines really - stand out.

And also, applying two coats of your pre-blotch is really the secret to this because the result is so much more even that applying just one coat. At one point using a single coat gave me a color very close to what matched the cabinet doors, but a careful look revealed the uneveness of the get stain. I am wondering what three coats would look like, but I have the color match that works and that's all I care about.

Here is a shot of a poplar board which has one coat of your mix on the left side. The right side has two coats of your mis. The gel stain was applied to the board at the same time. Only applied one coat of the gel stain.

Thanks for your help.

Reactions: Like 1


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## chicago (Apr 24, 2015)

Forgot to add that my Garnet shellac mixture is very, very thin. I have always used very thin mixes of shellac. That said I am going to have to spray the shellac on these door. Am going to build my 'spray booth' this weekend to keep the dust off of my wet doors when I spray. I sprayed some shellac a few years back and got the hang of it. Hope I can find my notes to pull it off again.

Thanks!


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## chicago (Apr 24, 2015)

Here's a color-corrected photo of the final matching mix. Am not sure how this will look on your monitor(s), but it matches prettly closely our cabinet doors.

There is some splotching in the upper half of the sample board, but those are from careless splashing from an earlier test. I told my dog Bella to watch it with the splashing, but you know how those dang border collies are.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Charles Neil (Apr 29, 2015)

looks good from here


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## chicago (Apr 29, 2015)

Thanks! 

Door is progressing nicely and should be ready for staining in a few days, then I will install the salt cedar in the upper panels, then hang it, then begin the next door .... then ...


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## chicago (May 4, 2015)

Yikes! Made some school boy mistakes - already!

When I applied the gel stain to the door, I did so to just one board at a time thinking I would never be able to apply the stain to the whole door and then be able to wipe it down before the stain began to dry or set. I was right about the former, but the latter came back to bite me. My overlaps were going to be very obvious with the method I chose. Long story short: I screwed up big time, but I think I can save myself before the Boss notices the trash can filled up with nasty brown paper towels. 

Things I have learned so far:

The flip side of this door will have the stain sprayed on and with a helper (or two) the stain will be wiped down as I spray to guarantee a better overall stain result;
The gel becomes somewhat plastic as it dries. This is surprising to me considering that this is a water-based stain;
Sanding using Abranet fiber disc's will clog up with the not quite dry gel stain;
Rubbing with paper towels leaves a cocoa-like powder on the paper towel after sanding. Am assuming this is the 'saw dust' from the gel stain.
Before I glued the door up, I thought it wise to stain the door panel edges (3/8" max) just in case the panel shifted later on leaving a light-colored streak where panel meets the frame. In hindsight, I think this was also a mistake as I now see a darker than normal 'streak' on the panel next to its frame. Can't win!! 

I think that by trying to correct my overlap mistakes I put down the second coat(s?) which prevented the first coat from having time to dry leaving the somewhat gooey mess I have at the moment. That said, I am going to let it dry until tomorrow then take a look at it.

To be clear, I began on the face side because I feared that if I started on the backside and I had some edge runs, these could end up on the face side and I would never know it. The door I think is very fixable, but I won't know much more until tomorrow when it is dry. Large staining projects can really get a fellow in trouble in a hurry!

Lessons learned! Definitely do not try this at home. 





Looking at the door it is obvious(?) to me that the lower-half is worse than the upper-half. I began on the lower half. The panels have been slightly sanded with 600x abranet as have the right and left stiles but only up to the first rail from the bottom.

That's my story so far. I'm going fishin' for the day.


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## chicago (May 5, 2015)

Well, today was a much better day than yesterday, the work was not any less, but the results were better. Sorry I can't show you the results. I'll explain.

Continuing from above: As expected, the door was dry, but I knew the stain had to be removed so I could begin with a fresh slate, so to speak. I have lugged several bags of steel wool around for years. Today I knew why: Steel wool was just what I needed to remove the stain with. I use steel wool a bit differently than most. I do not just grab it and begin rubbing away. I think it much better to use a small sanding block over the steel wool and then sand away. The 100x on the block keeps the steel wool from slipping and gives me a flat surface to sand the board with. This is much better than fingers IMO. I went through several #1 pads to get the heavier sections of stain off before I was ready to use my obital sander. I used 3-4 150x Abranet disc's to get down to the bare wood. The result is what you see below.

I then reapplied Charles Neil's blotch control solution and let dry. When dry I went over it very lightly with a 400x sanding block. I then applied another coat of the blotch control solution and again let it dry. When ready, I went over it very, very lightly with a 600x disc on a pad. Now I felt it was time to lay down the gel stain. Again. Round 2.

I was not sure about this, but I went ahead and used a 8" x 8" rag soaked with stain to coat the door which was laying flat on my bench. I was not really sure I could pull this off fast enough and not have the stain begin to dry on me before I could wipe it off. I must have looked pretty funny, but I pulled it off. The Good Lord must have given me a break because the door turned out much, much better than I would have ever expected it to. So where's the proof? I think it would be best if I post this photo tomorrow so that I can take it at the same time as I took the earlier photo so you can really see the difference. Hopefully, the weather will be the same so the light will approximate what we had here today. I will post the new photo tomorrow.


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## chicago (May 6, 2015)

As promised, here is the photo of the first door with its fresh coat of gel stain.





If you compare it to the one above you should see a great deal of difference in the staining results. Today I went over it again with its second coat. I will post that photo tomorrow.

This photo was taken at the same time as the first one was, but I agree that it is not ideal. I will try to do better with tomorrows photo.

Thanks!


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## chicago (May 6, 2015)

I just realized that I have not posted the photo of the door with the bad gel stain application. Sorry for that. I posted the photo to my website and not here. At any rate, here is the photo of the door with the poorly applied gel stain. From there I removed the stain as described above then re-applied the stain as you just saw in my previous post. My apologies for all the confusion.





Now if you compare the two photos you should see the difference.


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## chicago (May 21, 2015)

Update!

Here is a shot I just took a few minutes ago of the door. Again, another poor shot, but it is what it is. (A polarizer would have helped but can't add one to an iPhone.) I will take a better shot of this door when I finish adding all the salt cedar to it which will be tomorrow.

This door has been horizontal on my bench for a long time and I just had to prop it up so the Boss could take a look at my progress thus far. Almost done with this one and I have learned A LOT about adding salt cedar to door panels.





What you see above is hours and hours of picking 'just the right stick' for the job. Any sane human would not want to do this and and - I still have another door to make! I will suck it up and git'r done, like it or knot! 

I have dedicated a whole new page to just the salt cedar aspect of this project which will be on line in a few days. If you do not have any salt cedar where you live then you will not be tempted to try this so count yourself lucky. If you do have salt cedar available to you then you should take the time to read my web page on this project. BYOB!

And it is pretty obvious that Charles's blotch control can indeed turn a plain-jane poplar door into a cherry one.

Thanks!

Reactions: Like 1 | Way Cool 2


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## Charles Neil (May 22, 2015)

looks great


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## Kevin (May 22, 2015)

That's a cool idea.


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## chicago (May 22, 2015)

As promised ... here is another shot of the door actually hung in its track.




 

One more to go. This one still needs to be shellacked.

Thanks!

Reactions: EyeCandy! 1


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