# Shop Lighting, and LED vs Fluorescent



## TimR

I was looking at Ken's , aka @kweinert , thread on his shop and some discussion about lighting. Seems like one we can all relate to, but disappointingly scattered and marginal info out there. So...mine will perhaps add to the scatter, or not. I had to research this a bit recently for my own shop.

So, I started doing some digging about trying to understand how many standard 4' long fixtures I need, and whether to go with LED or not...so let me dump upon y'all here everything I know...it won't take long. 

To start, all these devices should have ratings in lumens, and best I can find, you want about 100 lumens per sq ft of space. Now...some tweaking involved here on that number, because if like me...some areas of the shop I don't care for needing any lights, i.e a section with mostly storage and stuff on wheels to pull out as needed. Also...if your eyes are young, 75 lumens/ft2 may be ok...getting older, may want to hedge towards 120 or so.

Before all this, I knew squat about lumens, so I initially took a swag at how many 4' long, T8, two tube fixtures I needed for the 24x36 space I have in the shop. I figure my primary space is an area of about 20x36, or 720 sqft. My visual swag for that area was 4 rows of lights, equally spaced about 7' apart down that 36' length, and with 3 lights tied together creating a 12' long light spanning in the middle of that 24' long width. That's a total of 12 fixtures, each with 2 T8 32 watt lamps, and I'll go with 4100K color for best natural looking light.

Keep in mind...I don't want to light up everything, I just want to create good ambient lighting, and still use task lighting for details.
So...let's see how this works when we crunch some numbers based on lumens needed.
I figure I need 720x100 = 72000 lumens of ambient lighting for that area. I think the average T8 lamp is rated about 3000 lumens, so 72000/3000 = 24 lamps...or 12 fixtures each with 2 lamps. So what that means, is my visual swag at how many lamps I needed pretty well matched up calculations based on lumens.

LEDs..or not. So, I looked at what was available at Home Depot, and came up with two traditional T8 fluorescent contenders for fixtures that can be direct linked using electric knockouts on each end of fixture. Why not get a fixture that is LED?? Well, for starters, I want to link my light's directly end to end...and the closest thing from HD would be about $100 per fixture. Ain't doin it, especially with a 850 ft well that's not producing! 
Options, options, options...You can buy direct replace LEDs bulbs to replace your T8 with (or without) ballast wired, for about $8 each thru 1000bulbs.com. So, I 'may' at some point buy LEDs, but I hear they are more prone to being fried by power surges, which kinda kills some of the savings. Regardless...buying a conventional T8 fixture gives you options down the road to change over. Just be aware, there are 2 different kinds of retrofit LED bulbs...ones that assume you're still going thru the ballast for power (double-ended), or ones that assume you're getting full 120V from one end of the fixture...simple matter of rewiring the light...if you're smart about power circuits.

So...on to the depot.
Home Depot 138633 , $33 each, or Home Depot 138636, $52 each. On looking online and even on display at the stores, the more expensive one has a slightly better 'wrap' vs the cheaper one. I bought it. It also said "commercial", which sounded better. Some looking thru online forums (yes, there are others besides WB ... but none better ) though and I found out the ballast in it is 'commercial' rated, vs 'residential' on the cheaper one. Both are electronic, so hum shouldn't be an issue...but, the commercial one doesn't meet the same RFI (radio frequency interference) numbers as the residential one.
Back to the Depot to exchange fixtures. They love me there. So, for $33 each, plus about $4 max for each fixtures lamps, I'll use the T8 fluorescents for a while. Later, if I want to go LED...I can, and my investment for a fixture will be about half the cost of dedicated LED fixture. Meanwhile, there are plenty of options to optimize the light intensity and color with the fluorescents also.

Will update once I get everything wired up and juice flowing.

Reactions: Like 3 | Great Post 1 | Informative 1


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## JR Custom Calls

I almost bought a handful of these a couple weeks back when they were on sale for $19.99... kicking myself now. But, I bought 4 t8 shop lights for $5.99 each, so I have more than what I would have with LED. http://www.ruralking.com/4-led-shoplight-4500-lumen.html

Reactions: Like 1


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## Spinartist




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## Schroedc

Another thing to consider, bright white walls and ceiling make a huge difference. I have the same lighting in the shop and showroom but the shop is much brighter due to the white wall color reflecting more light than the blue walls in the showroom.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Informative 1


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## kweinert

Schroedc said:


> Another thing to consider, bright white walls and ceiling make a huge difference. I have the same lighting in the shop and showroom but the shop is much brighter due to the white wall color reflecting more light than the blue walls in the showroom.



And that's why the next step in the garage to shop process is to move everything away from the walls and paint them white.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Way Cool 1


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## Mike1950

Most of my walls are white and ceiling is white- big difference. I bought some LED's from costco for extra light in shop- will get install and tell you what I think..


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## Kevin

Tim I use 150W and 200W CFL grow lights. But the most important thing to consider when buying any lighting is nkt just watts and lumens - it's the color spectrum. All of my lights are 5000K or more and most are 5500-6500K. 

I love my CFL's so much I haven't spent much time looking into LED's yet to see if they come in larger watts and high spectrum at the same time. I will never use anything below 4500K and prefer 5000K and up no matter what type of lighting it is. I have some T-8s in one of my storage spaces and dont like them because the Kelvin rsting of the bulbs is like 3200K or something so they throw yellow light compared to the higher K CFL's I have in the shop. Maybe the T-8 bulbs come in a higher K, I hope so.

To me, the type of lighting isn't as important as the color. You can talk CRI, lumens, watts, and type all you want and those all have their place, but to me THE MOST important number on the bulb package is the Kelvin color temperature rating because if it's less than 4500 I ain't gonna like the light it throws.

Noon sunlight is aboit 5500K, that's why you can walk into my shop at midnight and think you are on a beach in Maui. I'm spolied to it. You can't find yellow lighting in my shop or home anywhere and I will be replacing those T-8 lamps in the storage with higher K bulbs and if they don't make higher K T-8 bulbs then I'll look to LED and see what colors they come in, because while I can use a 16" long bulb in the tall shop ceiling, that's not an option in a low ceiling. That's the only drawback to CFL's - they are big.

So while you're deciding on yojr lighting type Tim, put the Kelvin rating of the bulbs available for the type right at the top of your list of consideration. You will thank me, because life is too short to have to endure yellow lighting. It's almost like day and night.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Steve Walker

T-8s do come in 5000k, and also 6500k. I have the 5000k in my shop and love them. On painting your walls, I used Gloss white, as it is slicker(dust doesn't hang on as tight) and I think a little more reflective. For task lighting, I am using 100w equivalent CFL's.....only drawback I have found so far is that it takes a couple of minutes for the coils to be fully lit. The box claims instant on, and the do come right on, but they still gotta heat up before reaching full brightness.

Reactions: Like 1


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## kweinert

Not related to the shop, but in the new house we've been replacing all the CFLs with LEDs. The 60W ones I bought don't have a temperature rating but they do say 'Natural Daylight'. My wife thought those were too bright for the outdoor fixtures - they did light up the houses across the street but I don't think they were obnoxious. She replaced them with 40W that say they're about 3500K (if I read the scale correctly.)

Those are fine for outside and what they're meant for - but I like the ones we have for indoors much better. It's a bright, clean light - no sign of yellow but it's not transitioned too far into the blue like some of them do.

It does make a difference. They're only 850 lumens but they're very nice.


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## TimR

Kevin said:


> Tim I use 150W and 200W CFL grow lights. But the most important thing to consider when buying any lighting is nkt just watts and lumens - it's the color spectrum. All of my lights are 5000K or more and most are 5500-6500K.
> 
> I love my CFL's so much I haven't spent much time looking into LED's yet to see if they come in larger watts and high spectrum at the same time. I will never use anything below 4500K and prefer 5000K and up no matter what type of lighting it is. I have some T-8s in one of my storage spaces and dont like them because the Kelvin rsting of the bulbs is like 3200K or something so they throw yellow light compared to the higher K CFL's I have in the shop. Maybe the T-8 bulbs come in a higher K, I hope so.
> 
> To me, the type of lighting isn't as important as the color. You can talk CRI, lumens, watts, and type all you want and those all have their place, but to me THE MOST important number on the bulb package is the Kelvin color temperature rating because if it's less than 4500 I ain't gonna like the light it throws.
> 
> Noon sunlight is aboit 5500K, that's why you can walk into my shop at midnight and think you are on a beach in Maui. I'm spolied to it. You can't find yellow lighting in my shop or home anywhere and I will be replacing those T-8 lamps in the storage with higher K bulbs and if they don't make higher K T-8 bulbs then I'll look to LED and see what colors they come in, because while I can use a 16" long bulb in the tall shop ceiling, that's not an option in a low ceiling. That's the only drawback to CFL's - they are big.
> 
> So while you're deciding on yojr lighting type Tim, put the Kelvin rating of the bulbs available for the type right at the top of your list of consideration. You will thank me, because life is too short to have to endure yellow lighting. It's almost like day and night.


I remember seeing that a particular temp color would be like daylight, but I mistakenly said 4100...I'm definitely going for 5000. Thanks @Kevin !


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## CWS

Kevin said:


> Tim I use 150W and 200W CFL grow lights. But the most important thing to consider when buying any lighting is nkt just watts and lumens - it's the color spectrum. All of my lights are 5000K or more and most are 5500-6500K.
> 
> I love my CFL's so much I haven't spent much time looking into LED's yet to see if they come in larger watts and high spectrum at the same time. I will never use anything below 4500K and prefer 5000K and up no matter what type of lighting it is. I have some T-8s in one of my storage spaces and dont like them because the Kelvin rsting of the bulbs is like 3200K or something so they throw yellow light compared to the higher K CFL's I have in the shop. Maybe the T-8 bulbs come in a higher K, I hope so.
> 
> To me, the type of lighting isn't as important as the color. You can talk CRI, lumens, watts, and type all you want and those all have their place, but to me THE MOST important number on the bulb package is the Kelvin color temperature rating because if it's less than 4500 I ain't gonna like the light it throws.
> 
> Noon sunlight is aboit 5500K, that's why you can walk into my shop at midnight and think you are on a beach in Maui. I'm spolied to it. You can't find yellow lighting in my shop or home anywhere and I will be replacing those T-8 lamps in the storage with higher K bulbs and if they don't make higher K T-8 bulbs then I'll look to LED and see what colors they come in, because while I can use a 16" long bulb in the tall shop ceiling, that's not an option in a low ceiling. That's the only drawback to CFL's - they are big.
> 
> So while you're deciding on yojr lighting type Tim, put the Kelvin rating of the bulbs available for the type right at the top of your list of consideration. You will thank me, because life is too short to have to endure yellow lighting. It's almost like day and night.


Grow lights


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## Kevin

CWS said:


> Grow lights



What about them?


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## Palaswood

I recently built a shop lighting fixture using some outdoor pre-wired sockets and 100 watt equivelant LED lights at 5000k. I have to say, the amount of light in my white walled garage is AMAZING.

For under 40 bucks (already had the aluminum tube), I was able to wire together this fixture that floods my shop with so much light, it took some getting used to.

Wired in series, with a switch near the plug end. I built a bracket for it out of filthy poplar pallet wood (that side was supposed to face INWARD, but got turned around during glue up), since we're renting and I didn't want to screw into the support beam.

Point being, LED is a HUGE power savings in the long run. These 100 watt bulbs put out so much light but actually only consume 18 watts each! So for under the power of a SINGLE 60 watt light bulb, I'm getting the equivalent of 300 watts at 5000k, for under 10 bucks a bulb at HD.

That bracket with the holes in it is part of the garage door installation and isn't connected to the light, but it may look like it is in the pic.

Also, I will be replacing the dull yellow bulb in the Flourescent fixture ( you can see the tip of it on the left).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Palaswood

CWS said:


> Grow lights


Huge drain on power vs LED.


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## David Hill

While I appreciate the brightness of the LED lights, they weren't around when I wanted to light my shop. I despise changing the tubes on the 4ft fluorescent fixtures, so I have my shop lit with strategically placed 8ft fluorescent fixtures. They did the trick for me--plus if I need to change a tube--much easier. I do have some smaller lights that are used at the lathes or work table for more direct needs.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Palaswood

David Hill said:


> While I appreciate the brightness of the LED lights, they weren't around when I wanted to light my shop. I despise changing the tubes on the 4ft fluorescent fixtures, so I have my shop lit with strategically placed 8ft fluorescent fixtures. They did the trick for me--plus if I need to change a tube--much easier. I do have some smaller lights that are used at the lathes or work table for more direct needs.


if I were gonna do a whole shop I would do what you did. Mine was a temp solution. were moving in 5 months.


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## Spinartist

Schroedc said:


> Another thing to consider, bright white walls and ceiling make a huge difference. I have the same lighting in the shop and showroom but the shop is much brighter due to the white wall color reflecting more light than the blue walls in the showroom.




I've got 2 1/2 gallons of white paint someone gave me months ago. How come I haven't used it yet?? 
I need to have a move it & paint the walls party fer the regulars who come to my woodturning studio every week!!


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## Schroedc

Spinartist said:


> I've got 2 1/2 gallons of white paint someone gave me months ago. How come I haven't used it yet??
> I need to have a move it & paint the walls party fer the regulars who come to my woodturning studio every week!!



Buy some beer and drop cloths and I'll bet it'll get done without you having to do any of the work

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Spinartist

Schroedc said:


> Buy some beer and drop cloths and I'll bet it'll get done without you having to do any of the work




They all OWE me big time fer letting them come over so much! I'll have them bring the beer!!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Spinartist

CWS said:


> Grow lights




@Kevin . Is that the secret to your awesome FBE??!!


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## CWS

Kevin said:


> What about them?


Where I come from we only use grow lights for one thing. To grow plants in the basement away from prying eyes.


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## TimR

CWS said:


> Where I come from we only use grow lights for one thing. To grow plants in the basement away from prying eyes.


Yep, nothing quite like basement tomaters. Keeps em away from all sorts of critters.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## woodtickgreg

For what it's worth I do dig led lights. But my shop is all t5 and t8 fluorescent in the 5,000k plus variety. I got them dirt cheap and the shop is well lit. I also use task lights right at the machine, it helps with aging vision. A few cfls here and there too. My whole house is either cfl or led, been slowly replacing the cfl with led as they fail.


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## Palaswood

LEDs took a huge step up in brightness and affordability in the last couple years. I wonder if I'll ever buy any other kind again, aside from replacing a tube lamp that's already in place.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Kevin

I've been reading up more since my last post and I'm going to get a few LED lamps and see how I like them. If I like them as much as I suspect, I'll be doing like Greg and replacing them as the CFL's go out.

Reactions: Like 1


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## rocky1

Personally, I'm not a big fan of CFL Bulbs; had one blow up in a lamp next to me. Shot flame and sparks everywhere, big puff of smoke. Had it been over a bed or couch and unattended at the time, it could have been disastrous. Wasn't good for the blood pressure the way it was! Looked kinda like someone had struck an arc with the welder cranked up right next to my head the way it was. Was scrambling trying to get away from it, then moving furniture in a hurry to make sure nothing was burning. 

Transformer explosion and fire is not an uncommon problem with the CFL bulb either.

This one is obviously induced, but it's exactly what I experienced sitting in the comfort of my living room recliner!


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## against.the.grain

If retro fitting t8s to LED, no ballast will be more energy efficient than using the ballast . A little extra effort on the front end but you also remove a component with potential to fail at some point.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TimR

against.the.grain said:


> If retro fitting t8s to LED, no ballast will be more energy efficient than using the ballast . A little extra effort on the front end but you also remove a component with potential to fail at some point.


Good point, and another reason why I opted away from more expensive fixture and ballast, aside from RFI issues.


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