# Integral (hidden) fasteners with ironwood



## TRfromMT (Jun 26, 2019)



Reactions: Like 2 | EyeCandy! 8 | Way Cool 5


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## Eric Rorabaugh (Jun 26, 2019)

Absolutely love it. Love to know the process of the hidden fasteners.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TRfromMT (Jun 26, 2019)

Full tang, but I only counter-bored the studs and epoxied it all together. This was... challenging.

Reactions: Like 2 | Thank You! 1 | Informative 1 | Sincere 1


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## NeilYeag (Jun 26, 2019)

Really nice. With the beautiful flow of the grain pattern on the scale, nice not to have to interrupt it with any pins. Beautiful work.

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Agree 2


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## TRfromMT (Jun 26, 2019)

Eric Rorabaugh said:


> Absolutely love it. Love to know the process of the hidden fasteners.



Basically, I use the tang of the knife as a drill template to drill each hole in the scale. I normally do this through both scales in one step. Drill, dowel, clamp, drill, dowel, clamp, drill. In this case each one was only counterbored about 60 % of the way deep for what I knew was going to be the finished thickness at each location. The front and back locations I knew would be about .250" thick, so I counter bored only about .188" deep. Middle was a bit deeper. Then I went about shaping and finishing each scale as normal. At the end, I cut my studs the thickness of the tang plus 2X the dept of the pockets (minus a bit so I did not bind up).

I just had to do a lot more thinking than normal....

Reactions: Informative 4


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## TRfromMT (Jun 26, 2019)

NeilYeag said:


> Really nice. With the beautiful flow of the grain pattern on the scale, nice not to have to interrupt it with any pins. Beautiful work.



Thank you. I figure whenever I try something really challenging, I want to go all-out with a really nice piece of ironwood. Go for broke. The ironwood sure does it's job if I do mine!

Reactions: Like 1


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## ripjack13 (Jun 26, 2019)

Wow. Thats a sharp looking knife! Very cool....

Reactions: Like 1


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## NeilYeag (Jun 26, 2019)

OK, but the challenge in my mind seems to be to make sure it all lines up right. Easy to get one side, clamp, mark drill. OK then flip it over and make sure the other scale is in line with the first one? That is what I am trying to grasp.


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## TRfromMT (Jun 26, 2019)

The scales started out as a very nicely book-matched set (unusually so, given they are ironwood). I outlined the tang of the knife and the holes on the back sides of each measuring and laying out very carefully. Lots of careful layout and checking before drilling is all.


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## milkbaby (Jun 26, 2019)

Beautiful wood for a beautiful knife! 

What's the finish on the steel, sandblasted? It looks really nice.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NeilYeag (Jun 26, 2019)

Sorry, one last follow up. So you do all of the lay out and drilling before and profiling on the scales at all? Including no profiling on the leading edge of the scales?


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## TRfromMT (Jun 26, 2019)

NeilYeag said:


> Sorry, one last follow up. So you do all of the lay out and drilling before and profiling on the scales at all? Including no profiling on the leading edge of the scales?



No problem, @NeilYeag 
In this case I did 100% of the shaping and finishing off of the knife. This is a finished blade (Carothers Performance Knives) and I am not at all a metal worker - strictly wood. So, I do not refinish blades (or make them in the first place). All my work is in the handles. In this case I trace the outline after drilling the stud holes. I grind the profile all around, then it is a pains-taking process of grinding down to the line, putting it back on the tang and finding the high spots, taking it off and grinding a little more until it it perfectly flush all around. It goes on and off the knife maybe 8-10 times to get it 100% flush. 

Then I grind to a "thickness" profile along the whole length. Imagine it is standing on edge and the thickness of the scale is being cut by a bandsaw - it is still rectangular cross section. I do this also with the grinder. Once each slab is about .020" thicker in all locations in all areas of the length of the scale, and each scale has the same top profile as each other, only then do I begin contouring the curves from belly to top of spine. 

At this point the scales resemble contoured scales, but around .005 thicker than I want them finished. (I have the original scales as my thickness reference - I constantly measure to the original scales as I go). I convert to all hand sanding at this point beginning with 100 grit progressing up to 400 grit.

This all happens before epoxy.

I glue them up now, and after gluing, I only have to go back a little to 220 grit, then 400 grit. But at this point I do not have any finish sanding to do along the spine or at the ricasso. This has already been finish sanded and is ready for oil. Only sanding after glue-up is in the main area away from the steel.

Make sense?

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Informative 4


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## TRfromMT (Jun 26, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> Beautiful wood for a beautiful knife!
> 
> What's the finish on the steel, sandblasted? It looks really nice.



Stonewash.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Foot Patrol (Jun 26, 2019)

@TRfromMT Tony what kind of internal pins are you using? Also are you cutting a bevel in on each end so the epoxy has a better way to hold than a pill shaped pin?


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## Echoashtoreth (Jun 26, 2019)

So what is the fastener? Is it just a std pin?


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## ripjack13 (Jun 26, 2019)

Is this a process you will doing again at some point in time?


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## Nature Man (Jun 27, 2019)

Beautiful work with beautiful wood! Scales are ALIVE! Fantastic! Chuck

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## phinds (Jun 27, 2019)

Which "ironwood" are you talking about? Hophornbeam or one of the other 180+ species that use that name ?


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## Echoashtoreth (Jun 27, 2019)

phinds said:


> Which "ironwood" are you talking about? Hophornbeam or one of the other 180+ species that use that name ?


My guess is that is the Az Desert Ironwood, Paul. Sure looks like it.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## Chris S. (Jun 27, 2019)

That looks great. I can only imagine how difficult of a process that must be but finished product is great. Nice choice of handle material to match blade style. Some times I think matching the proper piece of wood to a style of blade is the most important part. At times You see a knife that something just doesn't seem right, just slightly off. Usually, in my mind, it is the handle material chosen. This was Well done. Great work sir.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## phinds (Jun 27, 2019)

Echoashtoreth said:


> My guess is that is the Az Desert Ironwood, Paul. Sure looks like it.


Oh, yeah. I was focusing so much on the internal pins of ironwood that I completely overlooked the obvious DI scales and the fact that it would make sense that they are the same. People use hornbeam and hophornbeam for "ironwood" in things like construction pins, thus my confusion.


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## Strider (Jun 27, 2019)

Beautiful tool!

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## TRfromMT (Jun 27, 2019)

Foot Patrol said:


> @TRfromMT Tony what kind of internal pins are you using? Also are you cutting a bevel in on each end so the epoxy has a better way to hold than a pill shaped pin?



Basic threaded studs. The pockets are drilled just a hair oversize so all surfaces are epoxy coated. The bigger contribution to the strength comes from the dozens of dimples I drilled on the back side of each scale, and the tang is mille out with large pockets. There is a good amount of epoxy and a lot of surface area. It is also not excessively clamped at glue up to squeeze it all out.



ripjack13 said:


> Is this a process you will doing again at some point in time?



Maybe. It was a lot more steps.



phinds said:


> Which "ironwood" are you talking about? Hophornbeam or one of the other 180+ species that use that name ?



Umm, you know, ironwood ironwood. The pretty kind they make in Arizona.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## TRfromMT (Jun 27, 2019)

Chris S. said:


> That looks great. I can only imagine how difficult of a process that must be but finished product is great. Nice choice of handle material to match blade style. Some times I think matching the proper piece of wood to a style of blade is the most important part. At times You see a knife that something just doesn't seem right, just slightly off. Usually, in my mind, it is the handle material chosen. This was Well done. Great work sir.



Honestly, handles are ALL I do. As you describe, this is often overlooked and to me, matching the piece of wood to the finished knife in my mind is the most important step! It can all come together, or fail miserably just on how you cut a block. This is important.

Occasionally I get asked to put a piece of nice, curly Koa on some tactical, bada$$ tanto bladed fighter with a sawtooth spine. I pass on those....

Thank you.

Reactions: Like 2


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## phinds (Jun 27, 2019)

TRfromMT said:


> Umm, you know, ironwood ironwood. The pretty kind they make in Arizona.


Yeah, see post #21

Reactions: Like 1


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## Strider (Jun 29, 2019)

Thank you for elaborate post. 
I see now. If you have to focus (only) on the wood part, it will look so much better than thinking about all other parts. You make it look so simple!

Ahh, the hidden pin issues! I drill a bit narrower hole in the wood so when the regular brass pin goes in it has a snug fit (the pin tip is chamfered as to not cut the wood) . And it has cuts made with the corner of a file all over it, to fill in with epoxy and to catch grains of wood.

Overall bloody good work sir!


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## SubVet10 (Jun 29, 2019)

TRfromMT said:


> Basically, I use the tang of the knife as a drill template to drill each hole in the scale. I normally do this through both scales in one step. Drill, dowel, clamp, drill, dowel, clamp, drill. In this case each one was only counterbored about 60 % of the way deep for what I knew was going to be the finished thickness at each location. The front and back locations I knew would be about .250" thick, so I counter bored only about .188" deep. Middle was a bit deeper. Then I went about shaping and finishing each scale as normal. At the end, I cut my studs the thickness of the tang plus 2X the dept of the pockets (minus a bit so I did not bind up).
> 
> I just had to do a lot more thinking than normal....



Watching Simple Little Life on Y-tube, he uses removable scales: he gets the first scale to the point of being assembled for final shaping, and then uses that as a template for the other. Perhaps its the way to go here. Especially if you counted on making several of these and worked up a jig/spacer you could clamp the scales onto while shaping. As much as I would love to do it off the cuff, like pens, jigs and templates are my friend.


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## Wildthings (Jun 29, 2019)

SubVet10 said:


> Watching Simple Little Life on Y-tube, he uses removable scales: he gets the first scale to the point of being assembled for final shaping, and then uses that as a template for the other. Perhaps its the way to go here. Especially if you counted on making several of these and worked up a jig/spacer you could clamp the scales onto while shaping. As much as I would love to do it off the cuff, like pens, jigs and templates are my friend.


Jeremy's got a good channel! Cheers!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TRfromMT (Jul 1, 2019)

SubVet10 said:


> Watching Simple Little Life on Y-tube, he uses removable scales: he gets the first scale to the point of being assembled for final shaping, and then uses that as a template for the other. Perhaps its the way to go here. Especially if you counted on making several of these and worked up a jig/spacer you could clamp the scales onto while shaping. As much as I would love to do it off the cuff, like pens, jigs and templates are my friend.



In this instance I have the original micarta scales from the original knife. I typically have the scales when I am "duplicating" them in wood. I have never been able to use the scales as the template for accurately matching the profile so it fits perfectly flush to the tang. I have to use the tang. I do use the original scale for all of the thickness and contour matching, but the perimeter is essential to have the knife tang (guys ask me all the time if they can just send me their scales to make another set - never works). The way I do it, I am sure I could not use one perfectly fit scale to then make the other one. Not saying it can't be done - just that I couldn't do it after having tried unsuccessfully a few times.

I'll see if I can find the videos.

Reactions: Like 2


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## SubVet10 (Jul 1, 2019)

TRfromMT said:


> In this instance I have the original micarta scales from the original knife. I typically have the scales when I am "duplicating" them in wood. I have never been able to use the scales as the template for accurately matching the profile so it fits perfectly flush to the tang. I have to use the tang. I do use the original scale for all of the thickness and contour matching, but the perimeter is essential to have the knife tang (guys ask me all the time if they can just send me their scales to make another set - never works). The way I do it, I am sure I could not use one perfectly fit scale to then make the other one. Not saying it can't be done - just that I couldn't do it after having tried unsuccessfully a few times.
> 
> I'll see if I can find the videos.



@TRfromMT here's his "how to"

Reactions: Informative 2


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## TRfromMT (Jul 4, 2019)

SubVet10 said:


> @TRfromMT here's his "how to"



Some similar steps to what I do, but I cannot sand to the steel because I do not then refinish the bead blast (or stone wash finish) of the original knife blade. His method only works if you go on to refinish the blade. What I do gets them flush, but the abrasive belt never touches steel.

Thanks for posting.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## SubVet10 (Jul 4, 2019)

I guess it is all in what process works for you. And, there can be much left on the editing floor. I recently saw one where he had a wood or acrylic blade template that he used for the final shaping instead of the steel.


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