# Question about Crow "guts" placement



## ThomasT (Jan 6, 2019)

Hello everyone,

I have a question about the placement for Crow Call "guts". I have read that the tone / sound can be adjusted by the placement of the guts in the end of the call, and by some experimenting I found this to be correct. However, is there a "standard" placement or a "good" starting point for most or average call bodies? The reason I am asking is if you over-ream or ream too deep I don’t see how this can be corrected properly. The key words here is "properly". I now have made four Crow Calls as shown in the photo, two out of wood and two from aluminum. They are all fairly close in the sound output and they all seem to work because I get good response when I call Crows. Please note the placement on each of the calls: "A" is the highest pitch, "B" and "C" are almost identical to each other and just a bit lower in pitch than "A", and "D" is the lowest pitch but not that much lower than "B" and "C". On "D" note how deep the gut is into the bore and I was forced to go this deep to get a good Crow sound. I am going to guess that on "D" it is because of the extra thick (outside dimension) walls in the sound chamber.

Thanks for you help and have a great day,

ThomasT

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## Lou Currier (Jan 6, 2019)

@rocky1

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## rocky1 (Jan 6, 2019)

Hmmm... all sorts of call questions there. 

1.) B and C sounding the most alike is pretty much a given. Assuming the same inside diameter on the barrel, the walls of the barrel would appear reasonably similar, and the only apparent difference is maybe a 1/4" in length of the barrel. The density of the call material is likely identical, there's no variation in grain, and no internal stresses of any nature to affect the call. Wood on the other hand has a lot of variables built in, before you turn it, thus it is inherently more interesting to work with and not necessarily for those that aren't up to a challenge. 

2.) Thomas when working with call pictures, photos of the inside of the call barrel help solve these riddles as well. That's the business end of the call and variation there can impact things to a greater extent than depth of the reed or wall thickness around the reed. A picture of that end of the call gives one an idea of how much the barrel is opened up, whether it's been flared or step drilled, is it finished or not 

SWAEG... Wall thickness may be affecting you on the D call, but up on the reed end of the call it shouldn't impact you as much as it would on the call barrel. The call barrel you seem to have turned down almost kinda close to what we see on the other call, aside from the bead on the end of the barrel. The D call is however longer than the others, and it would appear to me, looking at them, that distance from the end of the barrel to the end of the reed may be awful close to the others, with that reed seated deeper. Thus, I'm going to guess whatever you have going on in the barrel is more relevant to your question, and you might want to measure and compare that end of things. 

3.) Definitions... 

"Properly" - is a matter of perspective in call building. There is at least a dozen different ways to do everything building calls. 
"Standard" - See above definition for "Properly" 
"Good" - Now you're getting somewhere! Something like you have going on with B or C is a good place to start, try and wind up somewhere between there and A. If it doesn't sound right until you get to D it's not a big issue, it just isn't going to look as appealing if you're selling them. 

4.) Taper to deep... On that call, you could remount the call, cut it down, and turn a new lanyard ring, without too much trouble. Otherwise, your options are based on call design. And, as a last resort release agents, epoxies, and MT 2 Tapers on lots of toys.

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## ThomasT (Jan 6, 2019)

Hello rocky1,

I hope these photos are what you are looking for.

I used a reamer to do the taper from a pre-drilled 5/8" hole to seat the guts.

"A" is 3-25/64 long x 1-3/32 od on the reed end x 1-3/64 od on the outlet end

"D" is 3-39/64 long x 1-31/64 od on the reed end x 1-31/64 od on the outlet end

I have plenty of material on "D" to turn it down to very close in size and shape of "A" if needed.

Neither call is finished on the inside.

Thank you and have a great day,

Thomas


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## rocky1 (Jan 6, 2019)

Kinda deceiving with wall thickness, but it appears the ID is very close on the outlet end of each. You may be right, it may all be in wall thickness. If you've got it tuned to a point it's working and want an indestructible call, I'd leave it. It isn't going to hurt anything. 

You might try swapping reeds back and forth between to the two to see if it's the call body, or the reed. Been there and done this and I realize at this point, it's a matter of trying to figure it out. If it stays with the call body, then you could try turning it down, or opening the barrel end up to see if it changes pitch. Or, swap it back and leave it. If it follows the Reed, the next step would be to swap the reed material itself in the two reed bodies and see where it goes. Could be a little bit heavier reed material causing it too. 

Experimenting such things is half the fun, but it will make you scratch your head occasionally.

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## ThomasT (Jan 6, 2019)

Hello again rocky1,

The ID is almost identical, sorry about that I should have included that figure. I have swapped the reeds and the guts around on all the calls and really cannot hear any difference.

Because I am so new to all of this I think I will start turning "D" down tomorrow and run some test at various stages to see if and when any changes take place. Really appreciate all the information and help.

Have a great day,
ThomasT

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## rocky1 (Jan 6, 2019)

Well it's got me scratching my head too, because that's the exact opposite of results I got with thicker walls. The thinner walls on the two calls I turned gave me a deeper tone. However, that one I opened the barrel up on and flared it. The thicker wall had a narrower air passage, so I assumed air was moving faster over the reed, which it may well be. That shouldn't be the case here however, and there really isn't enough difference in length to blame it all on that given your measurements.

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## ThomasT (Jan 7, 2019)

Hello @rocky1,

First thing this morning I mounted the old "D" Call on the mandrel on the lathe. And based on what you had stated earlier that the wall thickness on the back 1/3 of the body probably would not effect the sound, I turned down the front 2/3 - 3/4 (photo-1). Took it off the mandrel and installed the same guts and made several calls, and I just could not tell any difference or change. Next I turned down the back section and eliminated the Lanyard groove (photo-2), took it off and made several calls and again could not determine any change in the sound. Next I turned down the OD of the back section a little more and shortened the total length by almost 1/4" (photo-3). Made several calls and a whole lot of difference in the sound, a bit higher pitch more like the other wood call and more like a real Crow sound. Note the placement now of the guts, which is very similar to the other call (photo-4). I know this is not a definitive test, but it sure is fun trying and learning to make a better call.

Thanks so much for all you help and have a great day,

ThomastT


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## myingling (Jan 7, 2019)

looks like u got it worked out ,,,one thing about call making u can ask all the ? get u going in right direction but lots times it comes down to doing thing and reworking them to get it sound right wood density will come into play on how call sounds like also on certain woods u may have to make walls bit ticker or thinner get a sound u like ,,,, if the reed u are using got the notches in them for reed placement u can always trim them off and move the reed to get sound u are looking for ,,, IMO their are better reed sets out their

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## ThomasT (Jan 7, 2019)

Hello myingling,

Well being new to this hobby everything is a learning situation so I guess jumping in and getting my feet wet is a good start. I just completed turning another Call and do not know what the wood is but it is much softer than that Cherry. Anyway, I installed a gut in it just to see how it sounded and it is the best one to date. I stepped out on the front porch and gave a caw, caw, caw and paused for several seconds and then gave a caw, chuck, chuck and got an immediate response from a Crow. That makes me feel real good. So I believe you about the density of the various woods. I placed an order with River Mallard for some of their guts because I read here on the Forum that they make a good set. Do you have another source?

Thanks for all the help and have a great day,
ThomasT


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## rocky1 (Jan 7, 2019)

Good deal! Glad you got it worked out. Some calls you fall right into it, some calls you simply have to dial in. It's all a learning experience, different woods, even different finishes can affect the way they sound at times. You just have to tinker with it till you find the sweet spot.

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## ThomasT (Jan 7, 2019)

rocky1 said:


> Good deal! Glad you got it worked out. Some calls you fall right into it, some calls you simply have to dial in. It's all a learning experience, different woods, even different finishes can affect the way they sound at times. You just have to tinker with it till you find the sweet spot.




Thanks rocky1.

Have a great day,
ThomasT


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## myingling (Jan 7, 2019)

ThomasT said:


> River Mallard



yes river mallard has good guts as does grassy creek game calls is another good one

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## ThomasT (Jan 7, 2019)

myingling said:


> yes river mallard has good guts as does grassy creek game calls is another good one



Hello myingling,

Thank you, I will check out grassy creek.

Have a great day,
ThomasT


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## ThomasT (Jan 8, 2019)

Hello everyone,

Another Newbie question, can I use a glue to repair this crack? I have some really good "head cement" that I use on fly tying and it is light/thin so would penetrate the crack very well. Or should I use a Super glue? I might have tighten the Mandrel a bit too much, because when I loosened the screw to remove the Call, the crack closed up.

Have a great day.

ThomasT


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## rocky1 (Jan 8, 2019)

Yep... have to watch your mandrel pressure when turning the barrels thinner. It doesn't take a lot to hold them.

Don't know about head cement, would probably work. CA, aka cyanoacrylate, aka super glue would work as well. If you're going to do oil and wax finish on it, I'd run a preliminary coat of finish over it, smear a little wax along the edge of the crack, and then glue. Otherwise the CA will leave a noticeable stain along the edges of the crack.

Remount apply a little pressure to spread it open, glue, and release. Remove from mandrel, wipe excess glue off, then wrap with rubber band to dry. And, sand clean.


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## ThomasT (Jan 8, 2019)

rocky1 said:


> Yep... have to watch your mandrel pressure when turning the barrels thinner. It doesn't take a lot to hold them.
> 
> Don't know about head cement, would probably work. CA, aka cyanoacrylate, aka super glue would work as well. If you're going to do oil and wax finish on it, I'd run a preliminary coat of finish over it, smear a little wax along the edge of the crack, and then glue. Otherwise the CA will leave a noticeable stain along the edges of the crack.
> 
> Remount apply a little pressure to spread it open, glue, and release. Remove from mandrel, wipe excess glue off, then wrap with rubber band to dry. And, save clean.




Hello rocky1,

Yep I'm sure that I applied too much pressure. I was almost finished turning when it cracked, oh well. Thanks for the information, I think on this one that I will clear coat it after a good sanding. The clear coat might add a little bit of strength to it also.

Have a great day,
ThomasT

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## rocky1 (Jan 8, 2019)

Well... If you want to play. You could try this CA method of application. It's supposed to be one of the easier ways to apply it. Then you wouldn't have to worry about the CA darkening the wood adjacent to the crack. Doesn't necessarily have to be medium CA, that just takes a little longer to dry. It won't be quite as simple and easy on a call as a pen blank, it works the same way you just have more area to cover.

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## ThomasT (Jan 8, 2019)

rocky1 said:


> Well... If you want to play. You could try this CA method of application. It's supposed to be one of the easier ways to apply it. Then you wouldn't have to worry about the CA darkening the wood adjacent to the crack. Doesn't necessarily have to be medium CA, that just takes a little longer to dry. It won't be quite as simple and easy on a call as a pen blank, it works the same way you just have more area to cover.



Hello rocky1,

Thanks for this video, never seen CA used as a finish. I went ahead and applied some wax to the outside of the Call and then applied some Super Glue to the inside along the crack. I cannot see any Glue that has wicked through the crack so your suggestion appears to have worked great. I will wait until tomorrow to do the final sanding but I think it will look OK. I made this call out of Purple Wood and it seems to have soft grains so I will pay closer attention on the next one.

Have a great day,
ThomasT

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## ThomasT (Jan 9, 2019)

Hello @rocky1,

Here is a photo of the Call that had the split now with one coat of Satin Clear. If you look real close you can barely see where the split was. I think after sanding and several more coats of clear that this will not be noticeable at all. I sure appreciate you advice and help on repairing this call. In the future I will be more careful when installing on a mandrel.

Have a great day,

ThomasT

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## ThomasT (Jan 10, 2019)

Hello Everyone,

Here is a photo on the Crow Call after 5 coats of Clear Satin and sanding between each coat, the crack is no longer visible. I plan to let it cure for several more days and then will rub it down with s/s wool and apply couple coats of Linseed Oil and Beeswax. This is my first completed call and I am very pleased with the way it turned out. It goes without saying that I could not have done this without so much help from this forum group, thanks guys.

Have a great day,

ThomasT

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## Ray D (Jan 10, 2019)

Looks great. You want another challenge, try a reed owl call. Trying to get that perfect sound will make you pull your hair out. Lol. I have played with it on and off for several years and I’m still not really pleased. I guess I’ll stick with my Harrison hoot tube. 
Great looking call Thomas.

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## ThomasT (Jan 10, 2019)

Ray D said:


> Looks great. You want another challenge, try a reed owl call. Trying to get that perfect sound will make you pull your hair out. Lol. I have played with it on and off for several years and I’m still not really pleased. I guess I’ll stick with my Harrison hoot tube.
> Great looking call Thomas.



Hello Ray D,

In time I do want to make some Owl calls, I have a big Hoot Owl that visits almost every night. For now I believe that I will stick with the Crow calls and learn more about making them.

Have a great day,
ThomasT


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## rocky1 (Jan 10, 2019)

Good lookin call Thomas! You're off and running in the call game. Now practice, practice, practice!!! 

And, don't ever pass up a piece of wood. 

Wife and mother-in-law tossed a piece of what appeared to be Oak threshold or window sill in the trash one time. When I carried the garbage to the road for pickup the next week I discovered it and dug it out; little piece of 1 x 8 about 12 inches long. I sawed little 7/8" x 7/8" x 2 1/2" call blanks out of it, turned closed reed distress calls for predator hunting with the about half the blanks, and sold all but one or two of them. So even a mundane piece of old window sill can make a call body or 30.

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## ThomasT (Jan 10, 2019)

rocky1 said:


> Good lookin call Thomas! You're off and running in the call game. Now practice, practice, practice!!!
> 
> And, don't ever pass up a piece of wood.
> 
> Wife and mother-in-law tossed a piece of what appeared to be Oak threshold or window sill in the trash one time. When I carried the garbage to the road for pickup the next week I discovered it and dug it out; little piece of 1 x 8 about 12 inches long. I sawed little 7/8" x 7/8" x 2 1/2" call blanks out of it, turned closed reed distress calls for predator hunting with the about half the blanks, and sold all but one or two of them. So even a mundane piece of old window sill can make a call body or 30.



Hello rocky1,

Thank you, but I have received a lot of your time to help me get to this point.

I know you old timers ( not in age but in experience ) have seen all of this before but I sure am having fun seeing and learning so much of this for a first time and find it very rewarding. I just applied a first coat of Linseed Oil to the Cherry Wood call that I have been working on and WOW, the color change and the way the grain popped out is beautiful. I am waiting on the Beeswax to come in so that I can complete several more that I have turned.

Thank again and have a great day,
ThomasT

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## rocky1 (Jan 10, 2019)

Not really that old, just had a lot of help learning the last few years myself. Paying it back!

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## gman2431 (Jan 10, 2019)

Ray D said:


> Looks great. You want another challenge, try a reed owl call. Trying to get that perfect sound will make you pull your hair out. Lol. I have played with it on and off for several years and I’m still not really pleased. I guess I’ll stick with my Harrison hoot tube.
> Great looking call Thomas.



Those are tricky... I couldn't get one good so a buddy took it in and all my reeds. Comes over every now and then with the "new" version. Still sounds horrible lol

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## ThomasT (Jan 10, 2019)

gman2431 said:


> Those are tricky... I couldn't get one good so a buddy took it in and all my reeds. Comes over every now and then with the "new" version. Still sounds horrible lol



Hello gman2431,

Hey that sounds like just what I need as a project.....a call that I cannot make. 
I will add that to my to-do-list, but with no specific time.

Have a great day,
ThomasT

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## Ray D (Jan 10, 2019)

gman2431 said:


> Those are tricky... I couldn't get one good so a buddy took it in and all my reeds. Comes over every now and then with the "new" version. Still sounds horrible lol



They are definitely tuff.

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## Ray D (Jan 10, 2019)

gman2431 said:


> Those are tricky... I couldn't get one good so a buddy took it in and all my reeds. Comes over every now and then with the "new" version. Still sounds horrible lol


That’s funny Cody. We kind of did the same thing. My neighbor two doors down is my hunting partner. I would make a modification to the owl call and walk outside and make a few hoots. He would just shake his head in disgust and go back to what he was doing. This went on for several weeks. It now rests in a drawer with two other attempts. I will revisit it one day.

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