# Properties of Guatemalan Rosewood and Sabah Ebony



## TurkeyWood (Oct 3, 2021)

I’m trying to find physical property information on 
Guatemalan rosewood (_Dalbergia cubilquitzensis_) and Sabah ebony/Kayu Malam (_Diospyros durionoides or Diospyros mainguyi_). If you have sources for these I’d appreciate them.


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## phinds (Oct 3, 2021)

Good luck with that. Those are pretty obscure. Have you tried the USDA sheets? I didn't look.

I had a quick look at a couple of my most likely reference works and didn't see anything on either one.


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## TurkeyWood (Oct 3, 2021)

phinds said:


> Good luck with that. Those are pretty obscure. Have you tried the USDA sheets? I didn't look.
> 
> I had a quick look at a couple of my most likely reference works and didn't see anything on either one.


I did look there. I “could” get a wood engineer at my university to do test some for me but he’s done a freebee or two for me already. Of course the data would only be good for the small sample size I send him.

Reactions: Way Cool 1


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## 2feathers Creative Making (Oct 3, 2021)

TurkeyWood said:


> I’m trying to find physical property information on
> Guatemalan rosewood (_Dalbergia cubilquitzensis_) and Sabah ebony/Kayu Malam (_Diospyros durionoides or Diospyros mainguyi_). If you have sources for these I’d appreciate them.








CITESwoodID - Dalbergia cubilquitzensis (Donn.Sm.) Pittier, D. tucurensis Donn.Sm. (Granadillo, Guatemalan rosewood) - CITES II


Description of Dalbergia cubilquitzensis (Donn.Sm.) Pittier, D. tucurensis Donn.Sm. (Granadillo, Guatemalan rosewood) - CITES II, generated from a DELTA database.




www.delta-intkey.com





This has tech data for the first listing.

Reactions: Way Cool 1 | Informative 1


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## phinds (Oct 3, 2021)

Yeah, Dalwitz & RIchter is a good source. I didn't think to look there but should have.


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## TurkeyWood (Oct 4, 2021)

2feathers Creative Making said:


> CITESwoodID - Dalbergia cubilquitzensis (Donn.Sm.) Pittier, D. tucurensis Donn.Sm. (Granadillo, Guatemalan rosewood) - CITES II
> 
> 
> Description of Dalbergia cubilquitzensis (Donn.Sm.) Pittier, D. tucurensis Donn.Sm. (Granadillo, Guatemalan rosewood) - CITES II, generated from a DELTA database.
> ...


Thanks.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gonzalodqa (Oct 4, 2021)

_D._ _cubilquitzensis_ is a synonym of _D. tucarensis. _What type of information you are looking for? (I can post the link of the full article but it is in Spanish) 
_D. durionoides _is a synonym for _D. discolor_, that may help you find information.
_D. maingayi_ the only relevant information I could find is an article regarding marimba construction https://ojs.cnr.ncsu.edu/index.php/BioRes/article/view/12738

Reactions: Like 1


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## TurkeyWood (Oct 4, 2021)

In my conversations with individuals and on the CITES wood ID page I’m led to believe they are two similar but different species. I own pieces from each from what I consider reliable sources and they appear different but have similar physical characteristics. I plan to examine the end grain on each and I also hope to send them to phinds for his observations. I really want to clear this up for my peace of mind if nothing else.


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## Gonzalodqa (Oct 4, 2021)

According to the KEW Royal botanical garden they are synonym species


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## phinds (Oct 4, 2021)

Gonzalodqa said:


> _D._ _cubilquitzensis_ is a synonym of _D. tucarensis._





TurkeyWood said:


> In my conversations with individuals and on the CITES wood ID page I’m led to believe they are two similar but different species.


This is another case where authorities disagree. GRIN says they are synonyms, The Plant List (which is what I use) says they are separate species.

Personally, I'd go with separate species.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Gonzalodqa (Oct 4, 2021)

Missouri botanical garden also consider both Dalbergias synonyms. Not much information on the Diospyros though


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## Arn213 (Oct 4, 2021)

^They are two (2) different species- they are not synonyms. This has been discussed heavily in a guitar forum with much controversy. You can’t go by the country linked to the rosewood species because Guatemala has about 20 plus known dalbergia species that grows there from commercial dalbergia retusa (Cocobolo), dalbergia stevensonii (Honduran rosewood), dalbergia tucarensis as well as what you have listed as dalbergia cubiltquitzensis- clearly you cannot call those individual species Guatemalan rosewood because they grow there. CF Martin Guitars has made a run of Guatemala Rosewood and was specifically called “dalbergia tucarensis” and that is what most luthier know that species by. Dalbergia tucarensis grows both in Guatemala and Panamana- they will call it by the country name as Guatemala rosewood or Panamanian rosewoods. I have some actually from the 2 countries and it has the lowest density for any genuine rosewood I have worked on- the heartwood varies it can go from very bland to really dark rich in color (from tan to chocolate). Since it is the lightest (“floater”) from the dalbergia species, it is more of an ideal weight for a neck on a guitar compare to say the densest rosewood that sinks in water /-aka as “sinkers” (African blackwood, Kingwood).

Can you post photo’s of your rosewood pieces?

The Sabah ebony which typically comes from Indo. is very difficult to call out as such because it has a wide range of heartwood color and variegation where it can look like macassar ebony (more tan than black present version or a balance of the two), striped ebony, New Guinea ebony…..

Reactions: Informative 2


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## phinds (Oct 4, 2021)

Arn213 said:


> You can’t go by the country linked to the rosewood species


+1 on that !


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## Gonzalodqa (Oct 4, 2021)

I don’t think anyone is saying that they are synonyms based on the common name. Different botanical entities list them as synonyms, but like @phinds says they thenselves have not reached a consensus.
As I said the kew and Missouri label them as synonyms and they are some of the big names in botany.


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## Arn213 (Oct 4, 2021)

Gonzalodqa said:


> I don’t think anyone is saying that they are synonyms based on the common name. Different botanical entities list them as synonyms, but like @phinds says they thenselves have not reached a consensus.
> As I said the kew and Missouri label them as synonyms and they are some of the big names in botany.





Gonzalodqa said:


> _D._ _cubilquitzensis_ is a synonym of _D. tucarensis. _What type of information you are looking for?


They are not synonyms and they are entirely two (2) separate species.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TurkeyWood (Oct 4, 2021)

Arn213 said:


> ^They are two (2) different species- they are not synonyms. This has been discussed heavily in a guitar forum with much controversy. You can’t go by the country linked to the rosewood species because Guatemala has about 20 plus known dalbergia species that grows there from commercial dalbergia retusa (Cocobolo), dalbergia stevensonii (Honduran rosewood), dalbergia tucarensis as well as what you have listed as dalbergia cubiltquitzensis- clearly you cannot call those individual species Guatemalan rosewood because they grow there. CF Martin Guitars has made a run of Guatemala Rosewood and was specifically called “dalbergia tucarensis” and that is what most luthier know that species by. Dalbergia tucarensis grows both in Guatemala and Panamana- they will call it by the country name as Guatemala rosewood or Panamanian rosewoods. I have some actually from the 2 countries and it has the lowest density for any genuine rosewood I have worked on- the heartwood varies it can go from very bland to really dark rich in color (from tan to chocolate). Since it is the lightest (“floater”) from the dalbergia species, it is more of an ideal weight for a neck on a guitar compare to say the densest rosewood that sinks in water /-aka as “sinkers” (African blackwood, Kingwood).
> 
> Can you post photo’s of your rosewood pieces?
> 
> The Sabah ebony which typically comes from Indo. is very difficult to call out as such because it has a wide range of heartwood color and variegation where it can look like macassar ebony (more tan than black present version or a balance the two), striped ebony, New Guinea ebony…..


I may post pictures that the guy I buy my wood from uses in his eBay listings as the wood is off being turned right now. I’ll have a large chunks of each when It gets back that’s left over. They certainly look different but both are not very heavy compared to other rosewoods I have except maybe Sissoo. 

I agree 100% on the Sabah Ebony compared to Macassar and Papua New Guinea Striped Ebony. Visually they seem interchangeable depending on the piece of wood you have.


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## phinds (Oct 4, 2021)

TurkeyWood said:


> They certainly look different


Can you clean up the end grains enough to see if they are different there?


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## TurkeyWood (Oct 4, 2021)

No. Just differences in the wood color and side grain. I have a dissecting scope that has a digital camera attached that I plan on using for endgrain pics but the camera isn’t taking pictures for some reason.


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## TurkeyWood (Oct 4, 2021)

Here are pics of what I’m used to seeing with Nicaraguan (top) and Guatemalan (bottom). Nicaraguan is light brown in color with small, light streaks. The Guatemalan is darker and more reddish brown with larger, dark contrasting streaks. Nicaraguan appears more like Honduran Rosewood in the pieces I have. The Guatemalan looks more like Amazon or East Indian Rosewood but less dense.

Reactions: Like 1


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## phinds (Oct 4, 2021)

David, just FYI, "Guatamalan" rosewood includes at least the following
Dalbergia congestiflora
Dalbergia tucurensis
Dalbergia cubilquitzensis
Dalbergia purpusii

I realize that in this thread you've already mentioned Dalbergia cubilquitzensis, so there's absolutely no confusion, but it's still a good idea to refer to that (the specific species) rather than a generic term, even if it's just for people who are causally scanning the thread.


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## TurkeyWood (Oct 4, 2021)

phinds said:


> David, just FYI, "Guatamalan" rosewood includes at least the following
> Dalbergia congestiflora
> Dalbergia tucurensis
> Dalbergia cubilquitzensis
> ...


_Dalbergia cubilquitzensis _will be used by me in reference to Guatemalan Rosewood from now forward. I find it odd that tree ID and Latin names hasn’t been frequently revised and refined over the years. I work with bacteria and fungi and we are usually all on the same page when we refer to a specific genus and specific epithet. The world of trees and woods I’ve found to be a bit murky.


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## phinds (Oct 4, 2021)

TurkeyWood said:


> _Dalbergia cubilquitzensis _will be used by me in reference to Guatemalan Rosewood from now forward. I find it odd that tree ID and Latin names hasn’t been frequently revised and refined over the years. I work with bacteria and fungi and we are usually all on the same page when we refer to a specific genus and specific epithet. The world of trees and woods I’ve found to be a bit murky.


Trees were found by MANY different people in MANY different countries and given MANY MANY MANY different names.

I have one example of a botanical name that has 57 synonyms** and there are common names that refer to a great many different species. "Ironwood" is a good example, as is "granadillo" but probably what takes the cake is "oak", even if you distinguish between red and white (although oak is a bit different since a lot of them are Querqus spp. whereas the ironwood and so forth can be from many different genera).

** Which means that it was identified 58 different times by 58 different botanists who all thought that they had naming rights.


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