# Bees



## CWS

@rocky1 I ordered my bees this week. They are due the last part of April. All I have to do now is build a hive.
I have two good mentors that I will be leaning on plus a WB Expert.

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## rocky1

Actually took lots of pictures to confuse aspiring beekeepers with yesterday. Taking more today.

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## CWS

Almost got my bee hive ready. Bees will be here on Saturday. Looking forward to getting stung.

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## rocky1

Looking good!

I would start then in a single story. If you crowd then a little they'll pull your foundation quicker. Starting them in a double, they'll pull it up the middle and leave the wall combs undrawn. Either way you're going to have to move combs out, foundation in as they draw it, to expedite the process. If you let them start on one side and turn the comb around they'll move out a little quicker too.

As they get it drawn you'll notice they don't draw the corners above the hive entrance. Wait until they have the back corners drawn and turn the frames around, they'll fill it in Curt.

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## rocky1

Oh yes... Resist the urge to set that cover directly on top of your combs mid summer when the feeder isn't necessary. 

Common name for that one is a"Telescoping Lid" or "Telescoping Cover", don't ask where the "telescoping" thing came from; before my time! They've always been that, for as long as I can remember playing with bees, which is 50+ years. I think it comes from needing a telescope to see the other end of the string of cuss words one spits out when you set it directly over your combs on a honey flow and they burr it all up and stick that lid down. You can't get under it to pry the frames loose! 

Most commercial beekeepers use a flat lid, typically plywood, form ply works great if you can find some scraps, pressure treated 3/4" works fine and you may find other uses for the rest of the sheet. Cut it same dimensions as the box, and nail a 3/8" thick x 1" wide strip around the edge of it. That allows some additional bee space over the frames, and they don't stick it down as bad. A 1" x 2 1/2" or 1" x 3" cleat nailed on top at each end will help prevent the plywood curling on you as well. But if you plan on moving them at all, the cleats make it aggravating to stack them by hand. 

When you put your feeder back on in the fall, go back to the telescoping cover. They won't stick the lid down good over the feeder, and the lip all the way around keeps the lid from blowing off, and keeps water out of the feeder when it rains. 


If you get this kind of queen cage, and install it as I showed below, and you did get the combs from the neighbor, use your hive tool to dig a little patch of comb out, and turn the screen over that hole, so the bees can get to the screen to tend to the queen until they let her out. Put your queen in there, pop the lid on your package, and tip it upside down over the hive. If it's by chance seriously warm when you get them, mist them with a little cool water, before popping the lid on the package. If they're really warm and you open them up, they'll all take off and buzz around, and scare you half to death because you'll think they're all leaving, but it's usually not an issue, they come back after flying around a few minutes, taking a dump and cooling off. Packages aren't something I'm real familiar with; helped a buddy install a hundred of them 1 time, and that is the limit of my experience with package bees! But don't hesitate to yell if you have any questions.

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## drycreek

Brings back a lot of memories.


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## Lou Currier

@rocky1 do you wear one of those white suits when handling the bees and why are they white?

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## rocky1

Occasionally wear the white jacket, not the coveralls, nor the arm length gloves. Tee shirt, hat and veil most of the time. This is Florida, it does get warm.

Bees don't like dark colors, the extent of which varies day to day. Some days they aren't too bad, some days a pair of new jeans will get you eat up. Black is typically not a good color period. White is simply the safest color, and since they get dirty as hell working with the honey and wax and dirty equipment, it's bleachable.

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## CWS

Got my bees today. I got 3 pounds and a couple of friends got 2 each. Bees are spending the night in my shop, weather was cold and rainy today and tomorrow looks be a better day. Tonight there is appx. 50000 bees spending the night. Not many by @rocky1 standards but a different experience for me.

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## rocky1

Like all living things they need a little water Curt. If you have a clean spray bottle, set it to shoot a stream and squirt a bit through the screen. If it's cool in the shop, it's not a real big deal. Warmer it is, of course, the greater their need for water. When they ship queens, they soak a sponge and put it in the bottom of the box. Bees don't just drink water, they use it to regulate temperature. They were the original inventor of the air conditioner! They carry water into the hive, fan it through the hive and out. Water of course is a fantastic conductor of heat, so the water vapor traveling through the hive absorbs heat and it's fanned out of the hive. 

Oh yeah... When you pull the plug on that box tomorrow, just remember all 50,000 of them are armed!

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## Lou Currier

rocky1 said:


> Oh yeah... When you pull the plug on that box tomorrow, just remember all 50,000 of them are armed!

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## Lou Currier

rocky1 said:


> Bees don't just drink water, they use it to regulate temperature. They were the original inventor of the air conditioner! They carry water into the hive, fan it through the hive and out. Water of course is a fantastic conductor of heat, so the water vapor traveling through the hive absorbs heat and it's fanned out of the hive

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## Lou Currier

Congrats on the bees Curt  we definitely want to see your journey.

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## rocky1

Don't know about the little bitty buckets, but yeah there are actually bees among the hive that seek out and haul nothing but water. As honey flows diminish over the summer, more and more bees will haul water. 

1.) They don't have anything else to do. 

2.) It's typically hotter, and they turn the AC up. And... 

3.) There is no nectar coming in, so no moisture being fanned out of nectar to dissipate heat. Therefore their demand for water to cool hive is substantially greater.

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## rocky1

If you have a lake, stream, pond, or slough nearby they'll be fine, if not they may aggravate the wife around her flower bed, the dog around his water bowl, swimming pool, hot tub, whatever. Go to Wally World and buy a small kiddy pool, sit it near your hive in the shade, toss a few branches in so the bees have something to crawl out on, and won't drown.

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## CWS

rocky1 said:


> If you have a lake, stream, pond, or slough nearby they'll be fine, if not they may aggravate the wife around her flower bed, the dog around his water bowl, swimming pool, hot tub, whatever. Go to Wally World and buy a small kiddy pool, sit it near your hive in the shade, toss a few branches in so the bees have something to crawl out on, and won't drown.


I have a chicken waterer with gravel up to the waterline of the waterer near the hive. The hive is almost a half mile from the house. They also have a hive feeder in the top of the hive with a sugar mixture. I know that bees can travel a great distant from the hive. There is three spring feed 500 gallon concrete water tanks within 250 feet of the hive and a stream between the hive and the house. I know they could still wind up at the house so a water pool is a good idea. Hopefully they will spend most of their time in the 25 acres of pasture with a lot white clover. I APPRECIATE all of your good advice you have offered with helping me with this adventure. I think I have a small pool in the barn.

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## rocky1

With the tanks and stream between them and the house you shouldn't have a problem Curt. They'll prefer the stream water as it will contain trace minerals that may not be in the well water. Which yes they need those too. Not at all uncommon to find them working the mineral block I put out for the local deer; especially after a rain where they can suck the minerals up with water. If you have a pool in the backyard, that might be a problem. Something about chlorine appeals to them. We hear about bee problems by the pool all the time, when we set them out anywhere near one. 

As for how far they will fly, North Dakota, fall of the year will teach you lots of lessons there. The clovers and alfalfa will typically produce heavily up until daylight starts getting shorter. Once daylight goes into it's down swing, clovers will start winding down, plant growth slows, and they start storing nutrients in the root stock to make it through the winter. When they do, nectar production typically slows, if not shuts down altogether, regardless of whether there is bloom. Irrigated alfalfa may produce well into fall, where it's fertilized, and watered on a regular basis. Occasionally you'll get a warm, wet fall, and all of it will produce a little, but as a rule anymore, there are simply too many bees in the neighborhood, and what plants are blooming don't produce enough to make any excess. We used to make a little clover honey up well into September; this day and age, you're typically done mid-August, if not sooner. There used to be no one in the neighborhood, and we were running 1200 - 1600 hives. Now the nephew is running upwards of 6000 hives, the other local beekeeper is running 10 - 12 thousand, and there are 4 other beekeepers in the area running 2 - 4 thousand hives each, all in the same territory that we alone used to run 1600 hives. Just isn't enough flowers to go around in the fall anymore.

At one point in time, (_early 80s_), Sun Flowers were big in that immediate area. A lot of the local farmers planted them, and begged us to put bees on them. Had a yard a little over a mile from one field, farmer said it actually ran good on the side of the field the bees were on, but by the time he reached mid-field it wasn't worth running the combine over it. The next year we had 5 bee yards on his property, and he wanted them IN the sunflower fields. We actually picked most of the operation up and moved it to Sunflower fields, fall of the year back in those days, and made a second crop. 

Oil seed produce honey, confectionery seed, the ones you eat, don't. Still a few planted out there on occasion, but not like it used to be. And, most of what they plant anymore are confectionery. The sunflower oil market peaked, and kinda slowly faded into the past, when canola became "THE" oil to eat and be healthy. The Sunflower honey market followed suit, they were shirt-tailing the sunflower oil market when it was the trendy thing. 

All that being said, I have seen bees fly up to 3 - 3 1/2 miles, one way, and make sunflower honey in the fall. I have seen them fly in excess of 2 miles and make a BUNCH of sunflower honey. In fact, we had a yard not to many years ago that had made at least a 40 lb. average on sunflowers, and we had no clue where they were at. When I finally found them, it was 2 1/2 miles to the nearest corner of the field from the bee yard.

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## CWS

The more I learn about them the more amazed I am.
thank you 
Curt

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## CWS

Checked the hive today. The queen has left the cage. The bees are building new comb already on the new frames. Amazing little critters.

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## rocky1

Yep, they'll boogey right along when the start. Almost scary at times!! 

Checked and supered 320 hives yesterday, went back and checked and supered 500 or so hives today. Found bunches of them that I really wasn't expecting to be full, as in they didn't even look like they were working on them last Monday when I checked them; they were full today! Had 110 double story hives that appeared short of feed, short of bees, just starting to move up into the top hivebody last week, little nectar trickling in, 90% of those were wall to wall bees, combs whitened up, 2 - 4 frames upstairs full of honey, burred up. Great to see them come around that fast, sucked in that I really didn't anticipate that crap and left two empty rows on the truck to carry queen excluders for those, and we ran short of supers to work everything in the Branford area. So now I have to go 50 miles south in the morning, to work the last hundred hives there, before going 50 miles west to check bees in Lee and Madison. 


*Lessons in beekeeping* -- The above two pieces of wax are noticeably different, as everyone can tell, and before Lou shows up and wants to know why... 

The wax on the left is fresh wax, plucked from the wax glands, chewed up and deposited to build comb. The wax on the right, that looks darker and dirty, is wax they chewed down from the old combs Curt borrowed from the neighbor. Were everything in the hive new and clean, there really shouldn't be any dirty brown wax in the hive, it should all be pretty and white. Therefore, I can tell with reasonable certainty from here, he did in fact get a few established combs from the neighbor. 

Keep an eye on them and make sure they draw the foundation right Curt. Occasionally when drawing new foundation, they'll want to bridge across between the frames. Some hives are worse than others in that respect, mediocre honey flow will cause it at times. If they do bridge between the frames, pull the affected frames, use your hive tool and cut the comb where they've bridged across down to the foundation, and force them to start over. Don't do like my monkeys and scrape the entire frame clean, just the spots where the comb is not properly drawn. When you put the combs back in, turn one or both of them. Try to avoid putting those spots you cut down together again. If you place those cut down spots adjacent to partially drawn comb it reduces the gap between frames and they'll usually straighten it out. 

The frames are designed to allow adequate bee space between the combs once they are drawn. When it's all foundation there's too much bee space between the frames and they essentially build bridges between the frames to move back and forth. With enough bees, and an abundance of nectar they will usually draw the combs fast enough to avoid that scenario. They have to have enough bees to fill that space however, and form a bee bridge across the gap between frames. With a package in a new hive, there's not necessarily enough bees there to do that throughout the hive, and they tend to try and rush things at times. With a good honey flow, between building stores, and the queen laying brood, they will fill the comb about as fast they can build it. 

Try not to disturb them too much for a few days with the new queen in there. I know you want to get in there and dig around, see how they are progressing, but each time you do you risk mashing the queen between frames, and the bees can at times be very protective of her, and will at times ball her up and suffocate her, trying to protect her. 

Dependent upon how long she has been caged, she could start laying right away, or it may take 4 - 5 days for her to start. 

*Old age trick* --- I can tell you already, eggs are very difficult to see in new comb. Even if you went with black foundation. The queen doesn't always lay them directly in the bottom of the hole. A lot of the time, they will be stuck on the cell wall right at the bottom, where the wall meets the bottom of the cup. It is also very difficult to see them in low light. Act like a kid, break out your cell phone, turn on your flash, and zoom! You'll be amazed what you can see!!

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## ripjack13

Rocky, are these the "bridges" you were referring to?


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## rocky1

No Marc, that is what is typically referred to as Burr Comb, they'll build that all over, and make a mess of things.

It's essentially the same thing, but they do it down the middle of the comb itself. Unfortunately that creates a number of problems for the beekeeper.

1.) It makes a mess every time you pull a frame because it tears the comb. If left long enough it will make virtually impossible to pull a frame.

2.) Where you pull that apart and try to drag it up out of the brood nest, you risk crushing the queen with it, should she happen to be on that particular frame.

3.) As a rule, when they go off on that tangent, and build the bridges perpendicular to the comb, they screw the pattern in the comb all up, and draw Drone Comb. In Drone Comb the cell is larger to accomodate the Drone's larger body. The queen will not lay a worker egg in it, therefore all you get out of it is useless Drone bees; unless you're raising queens, in which case you need them to mate the queens.


Severe case of what I'm talking about here. The little strip running up and down the face of the comb, on the left, is burr comb that they appear to be bridging across to the adjacent frame. Stuff on the right, they've screwed up altogether and built a new piece of comb in the space between the two frames, rather than utilizing the foundation. Behind that bug chunk of out of place comb there are probably 4 or 5 more strips of burr comb top to bottom like that seen on the left. You have to cut all of that down, scrape back to the foundation, and let them start over. In this case, it is highly unlikely that anything aside from the bridge comb is drawn behind that big chunk on the right. The piece on the left, if you cut that narrow strip down, they would typically fill it back in neatly in a matter of days. On an intense honey flow, that little strip may be filled in, in a single day.





This also gives you a good example of Drone Comb vs. Worker Comb. Drone Comb is the larger cell structure seen on the right, worker comb the smaller cell structure seen on the left.

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## Lou Currier

@rocky1 now that I can’t ask the question about the new and the old, how about explaining what a super is?


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## rocky1

A shallow box... I explained that in the other beekeeping thread. But, you were sleeping in class that day! Comes in an assortment of sizes, in 8 frame or 10 frame. It is what is usually used to make honey in, because only a sadistic SOB wants to make honey in hivebodies. Full they'll weigh 70 - 80 lbs. and are about impossible to chase bees out of when pulling honey.

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## CWS

@rocky1 Got a question. One of my friends who got bees when I did had a hive of new bees that did not free the queen out of her cage. Any ideas why this would have happened? I was thinking maybe she was too ugly.

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## Lou Currier




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## rocky1

CWS said:


> @rocky1 Got a question. One of my friends who got bees when I did had a hive of new bees that did not free the queen out of her cage. Any ideas why this would have happened? I was thinking maybe she was too ugly.




Typically it's because the candy in the end of the cage is too hard Curt. If they had attendant bees in the cage with them, occasionally one of the attendants will die and plug the opening. Or, there may be another queen in the hive. Tell him to check for brood and see if anything is laying. Usually they'll let them out to kill them, if there's another queen, but I have seen 2-3 laying queens wandering around a hive together at times, so they may not. Those are about the only reasons they wouldn't let one out.

If he has eggs, try and find some brood out of someone's hive, if it's only a frame or two, and set up a nuc to put her in. (_Nuc is short for nucleus, for you non-beekeeping inquisitive types. I ain't gona name no names Lou.  It usually consists of 1 - 3 frames of brood, a feed comb, maybe an empty and a few bees. You then introduce a queen and start a new hive._) If none of you have a nuc box Curt, find a piece of high density foam and cut it to fit the inside of the hivebody, and limit them to 2 - 3 frames until it begins growing. You can slide the foam out and add frames as it does. 

If she's been in there 4-5 days, and nothing is laying in the hive, lay the cage on top of the frames in the broodnest, pop the staple out of the screen, tip it on its side, fold the screen back, and let her out. She's been in there long enough they will accept her.

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## CWS

@rocky1 
What is your thoughts about using a queen excluder in the bee hives?


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## rocky1

There are good and bad aspects to both sides of that argument Curt. And, a lot of that depends on your queen honestly. 

-- Those who don't run excluders will tell you the bees move up into the supers faster. And, they may, but it's usually because the queen is crowded downstairs and she'll wander upstairs to lay, so they move up to cover the brood, and then honey stores are pushed up above the brood. 

_However... If you rotate your supers below the excluder and let them lay a cycle or two of brood in the supers, let it hatch off before moving it up, just so the combs smell like brood, they'll move up into them quicker above an excluder as well. We discovered this with a bunch of supers we borrowed and eventually bought from another beekeeper that ran his without excluders. Put our supers on and put his on, side by side, and they would without fail move up into the supers we got from him quicker. At least until we bought them, and the frames got mixed. So... moving up quicker is not all about following the queen and the brood up, it's more about the scent of brood upstairs that moves them up quicker. _ 


-- Also considered a plus is the fact that the broodnest isn't as crowded because the queen can go anywhere and lay, so they aren't quite as apt to swarm. That doesn't mean they won't, it just means might not. Running a double story broodnest alleviates swarming to some extent, but nothing is a guarantee. With expanded room to lay, a good hot queen can lay A LOT of brood very quickly, and therefore the hive grows faster without the excluder, and they'll still swarm.

_FYI - A considerable portion of the swarm tendency is genetically inherent and I have seen them swarm before they fill the hive with bees, let alone fill it with any food stores. I have in fact, seen them swarm repeatedly, until they swarmed the hive to death. That was fairly common for awhile when they were attempting to hybridize, looking for a better bee, to battle mites. Both the Russian and African strains are extremely swarm prone, and the Russian strain was looked at as somewhat mite resistant, and therefore was considered a good candidate for hybridization for awhile. They had other issues when crossed however, and didn't pan out. Fortunately the breeders have worked that trait back out of the bees, to a great extent, but they're still not as steadfast as they used to be. _


Down side to no excluder... 

-- Entirely too many frames to look for your queen if you need to find her. 

-- Risk of losing your queen each time you pull honey. 

-- Brood upstairs in your honey supers makes pulling honey a pain in the ass. Bees don't leave the brood as easily as they do honey, they'll return to it on the truck, in the honey house too, so you run into supers that are full of grumpy bees when extracting. (_Doesn't work so good at times!! Believe me!!)_

_On a limited basis, one or two hives, even 5 - 10 hives, it's not a big deal Curt. You simply pull your frames with brood out, and leave them on the bees until the brood hatches. When you're running 4 - 5 thousand hives, pulling 2000 supers of honey a day at times, don't have enough supers to let them do their thing and just stack boxes on all summer, you can't do that. The time it takes to chase the bees down in those that do have brood in them, and make sure you don't take the queen when you pull honey, is truly a pain in the ass. It slows the process a great deal. The time you spend dealing with it in the honey house slows things down a great deal as well. Especially when you have a crew of high school girls in the honey house.

IF you have enough equipment to simply stack them up, and let them do their thing, the bees will sort it out as the season winds down. Brood rearing slows, as brood hatches off, the bees fill the empty cells, the queen moves back downstairs, and it's not a problem. We've never had that luxury. Back in the old days they made too much honey, you couldn't stack them that high. In recent years, we're running too many bees. Don't have enough equipment, have to extract and rotate empties back out. Sometimes see a box go through the honey house 2 - 4 times a season. 
_
-- If you pull the honey with brood in it, you can uncap around it and extract. With an automated system, we have to stop and scratch cappings around the brood. A frame or two isn't bad multiple supers, is a pain in the ass. 

-- Repeated cycles of brood in your honey combs will darken your combs, which will in turn darken your honey to some extent. The prettiest honey you will ever make, is typically made on freshly drawn foundation, provided all conditions are right to make such a crop. 


_
All that having been said... 

Attempting to draw foundation above the excluder is difficult at best Curt. If the honey flow is intense, bees are growing yet strong, yeah sometimes they'll do it, but typically you want a set of drawn combs above the foundation to draw them through it. Where you are looking at stacking nothing but foundation on top of them, I'd leave the excluder off, and let the queen wander up there if she will, to help draw the bees up and get your foundation pulled. _


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## Lou Currier



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## CWS

rocky1 said:


> There are good and bad aspects to both sides of that argument Curt. And, a lot of that depends on your queen honestly.
> 
> -- Those who don't run excluders will tell you the bees move up into the supers faster. And, they may, but it's usually because the queen is crowded downstairs and she'll wander upstairs to lay, so they move up to cover the brood, and then honey stores are pushed up above the brood.
> 
> _However... If you rotate your supers below the excluder and let them lay a cycle or two of brood in the supers, let it hatch off before moving it up, just so the combs smell like brood, they'll move up into them quicker above an excluder as well. We discovered this with a bunch of supers we borrowed and eventually bought from another beekeeper that ran his without excluders. Put our supers on and put his on, side by side, and they would without fail move up into the supers we got from him quicker. At least until we bought them, and the frames got mixed. So... moving up quicker is not all about following the queen and the brood up, it's more about the scent of brood upstairs that moves them up quicker. _
> 
> 
> -- Also considered a plus is the fact that the broodnest isn't as crowded because the queen can go anywhere and lay, so they aren't quite as apt to swarm. That doesn't mean they won't, it just means might not. Running a double story broodnest alleviates swarming to some extent, but nothing is a guarantee. With expanded room to lay, a good hot queen can lay A LOT of brood very quickly, and therefore the hive grows faster without the excluder, and they'll still swarm.
> 
> _FYI - A considerable portion of the swarm tendency is genetically inherent and I have seen them swarm before they fill the hive with bees, let alone fill it with any food stores. I have in fact, seen them swarm repeatedly, until they swarmed the hive to death. That was fairly common for awhile when they were attempting to hybridize, looking for a better bee, to battle mites. Both the Russian and African strains are extremely swarm prone, and the Russian strain was looked at as somewhat mite resistant, and therefore was considered a good candidate for hybridization for awhile. They had other issues when crossed however, and didn't pan out. Fortunately the breeders have worked that trait back out of the bees, to a great extent, but they're still not as steadfast as they used to be. _
> 
> 
> Down side to no excluder...
> 
> -- Entirely too many frames to look for your queen if you need to find her.
> 
> -- Risk of losing your queen each time you pull honey.
> 
> -- Brood upstairs in your honey supers makes pulling honey a pain in the ass. Bees don't leave the brood as easily as they do honey, they'll return to it on the truck, in the honey house too, so you run into supers that are full of grumpy bees when extracting. (_Doesn't work so good at times!! Believe me!!)_
> 
> _On a limited basis, one or two hives, even 5 - 10 hives, it's not a big deal Curt. You simply pull your frames with brood out, and leave them on the bees until the brood hatches. When you're running 4 - 5 thousand hives, pulling 2000 supers of honey a day at times, don't have enough supers to let them do their thing and just stack boxes on all summer, you can't do that. The time it takes to chase the bees down in those that do have brood in them, and make sure you don't take the queen when you pull honey, is truly a pain in the ass. It slows the process a great deal. The time you spend dealing with it in the honey house slows things down a great deal as well. Especially when you have a crew of high school girls in the honey house.
> 
> IF you have enough equipment to simply stack them up, and let them do their thing, the bees will sort it out as the season winds down. Brood rearing slows, as brood hatches off, the bees fill the empty cells, the queen moves back downstairs, and it's not a problem. We've never had that luxury. Back in the old days they made too much honey, you couldn't stack them that high. In recent years, we're running too many bees. Don't have enough equipment, have to extract and rotate empties back out. Sometimes see a box go through the honey house 2 - 4 times a season.
> _
> -- If you pull the honey with brood in it, you can uncap around it and extract. With an automated system, we have to stop and scratch cappings around the brood. A frame or two isn't bad multiple supers, is a pain in the ass.
> 
> -- Repeated cycles of brood in your honey combs will darken your combs, which will in turn darken your honey to some extent. The prettiest honey you will ever make, is typically made on freshly drawn foundation, provided all conditions are right to make such a crop.
> 
> 
> _
> All that having been said...
> 
> Attempting to draw foundation above the excluder is difficult at best Curt. If the honey flow is intense, bees are growing yet strong, yeah sometimes they'll do it, but typically you want a set of drawn combs above the foundation to draw them through it. Where you are looking at stacking nothing but foundation on top of them, I'd leave the excluder off, and let the queen wander up there if she will, to help draw the bees up and get your foundation pulled. _


Thank you! I think when I get all my questions answered I will write a book. You are wealth of wisdom my friend. Don't know if you noticed, but we now have crazy Floridian.

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## rocky1

Lou Currier said:


> View attachment 165776




Which part?


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## CWS

Central part. I don't want to name names, butt his first name is Lou.

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## Lou Currier



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## CWS

Opened the hive today. Found the queen and found some cells I think had larvae in them. I got a picture, not too good but I there are cells with what look like larvae.

 Could of got a better picture but I had my my glove off so I could use my phone.

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## rocky1

Damn you gettin brave already, pulling that glove off! 

Those on the right that are capped are sealed brood, meaning any day now you'll start hatching off new bees, and the hive will start growing. Those on the left without caps, all appear to have unsealed brood in various stages within. 

Then some honey up there in the top left corner.

You're on your way!!

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## Lou Currier

They’re worse tan mice

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## CWS

Lou Currier said:


> They’re worse tan mice


You talking about tanned mice. They live on the beach or use sun lamps.

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## CWS

My hive is doing well. I have a lot of brood in the frames and should have more workers on Saturday. Both of my friends have lost queens and we are going after 2 new queen on Thursday. This an interesting hobby and I recommend some you should join in and learn why @rocky1 has so much money.

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## rocky1



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## rocky1

Several possibilities on loss of queen... 

- Could have swarmed looking for more suitable environment. Most of their bees would be gone were that the case however. 
- Bees could have killed her. 
- Could have mashed her digging in them constantly. 
- Could have not got her out of the cage in time. 

It's truly hard saying, happens all the time. Did they get to the point of having any brood laid before she disappeared Curt?


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## kweinert

I've pointed my brother-in-law to this thread as he's a recent keeper of bees. Just got his first batch of bees this spring.

They live on 15 or so acres of woods and have a tree farm. That means that every 15 or 20 years they do some culling and sell the wood. When he fills out the form for the tree farm (so they pay lower taxes) they ask about products, like livestock. In Ohio (and maybe elsewhere) bees are livestock. He's always been interested so he thought he'd get started and see what happens.

He said he went with a friend of his to get the bees. They went out into the hills somewhere, to an off the beaten path place. Barefoot kids sent them up a long drive into the woods and he got in line to get his bees. Evidently the guy had stacks and stacks of starter packs with queens.

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## CWS

rocky1 said:


> Several possibilities on loss of queen...
> 
> - Could have swarmed looking for more suitable environment. Most of their bees would be gone were that the case however.
> - Bees could have killed her.
> - Could have mashed her digging in them constantly.
> - Could have not got her out of the cage in time.
> 
> It's truly hard saying, happens all the time. Did they get to the point of having any brood laid before she disappeared Curt?


One of the queens died in the cage and we were waiting to see any brood showed up and it didn't. The other one was in the hive after a week and there was a little brood. This week no more brood and she was no where to found. The fellow we got the bees from is replacing the queens.The other two hives my friends got are doing really well.


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## CWS

kweinert said:


> I've pointed my brother-in-law to this thread as he's a recent keeper of bees. Just got his first batch of bees this spring.
> 
> They live on 15 or so acres of woods and have a tree farm. That means that every 15 or 20 years they do some culling and sell the wood. When he fills out the form for the tree farm (so they pay lower taxes) they ask about products, like livestock. In Ohio (and maybe elsewhere) bees are livestock. He's always been interested so he thought he'd get started and see what happens.
> 
> He said he went with a friend of his to get the bees. They went out into the hills somewhere, to an off the beaten path place. Barefoot kids sent them up a long drive into the woods and he got in line to get his bees. Evidently the guy had stacks and stacks of starter packs with queens.


We bought our bees from a local supplier who gets his bees from the south. Only diference is in S.E.OHIO our suppliers wear shoes.


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## kweinert

CWS said:


> We bought our bees from a local supplier who gets his bees from the south. Only diference is in S.E.OHIO our suppliers wear shoes.



He did say it seemed pretty sketchy to him and he probably wouldn't have gone if his friend hadn't been with him. Same thing there, though - the bees were from the south. He's in the Alliance (North Central Ohio) but I'm not sure where they went to pick them up.


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## rocky1

Have a friend down here that does package bees, and they do go to Ohio, so it may all be closer related than you think. Had a member here from Ohio, I believe, that I gave his phone number to, and it turned out Lee had bees in his backyard, like literally, right across the fence. So it could be possible.


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## rocky1

CWS said:


> One of the queens died in the cage and we were waiting to see any brood showed up and it didn't. The other one was in the hive after a week and there was a little brood. This week no more brood and she was no where to found. The fellow we got the bees from is replacing the queens.The other two hives my friends got are doing really well.



Given he had brood and then she disappeared, I'd guess he either mashed her, or he got into that situation I mentioned first week of not digging in them too much where they wrap her up trying to protect her and in turn kill her. 

When you're working the brood nest, dig the first frame out gently, look it, set it down lean it up against the hive, and look the rest. The additional room helps prevent mashing the queen sliding frames in and out. Make sure any big goobers of burr comb on the brood combs, is cut down to prevent mashing bees when pulling them out of the brood nest. They will eventually make a mess of everything in there. 

Not much you can do about them balling the queen up. It's a combination of things, barometric pressure, temperature, honey flow or more likely lack thereof, attitude of the bees, with the latter impacted by having been recently moved, dug into frequently, whatever. Sometimes they just do it.


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## Gdurfey

kweinert said:


> He did say it seemed pretty sketchy to him and he probably wouldn't have gone if his friend hadn't been with him. Same thing there, though - the bees were from the south. He's in the Alliance (North Central Ohio) but I'm not sure where they went to pick them up.



Wonder if he heard banjo music as he went up the drive. you get around the border of SE Ohio and things start looking like West VA real quickly......

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## CWS

Tomorrow will be 21 days . I am going to check my hive on Sunday to see how it is doing.

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## CWS

Checked my hive yesterday and I believe I have a lot of brood. Got better pictures this time.


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## rocky1

Not necessarily a lot of brood, but given the number of bees in the hive, it looks pretty darned good! As that brood starts hatching off, population will expand and in turn the brood pattern will expand. 

That little piece of comb they are drawing on the edge of the top bar in that bottom picture, scrape it out of there, if you didn't. They're about to make a mess with that, and start a new comb down between your frames.

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## CWS

Thanks The other side of that frame has about the same amount of brood


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## rocky1

Looking at that again, is that a piece of comb or is it the thumb on your glove hanging down there? 

That much brood will likely fill a frame or two up with bees. It's amazing what they cover when you lay them down on the comb, versus stacking them on end in the comb. As the population increases, more bees will be able to get out and fly and make a little honey and pollen, increasing their ability to raise more brood. And, you'll have more bees to cover brood and tend to it. It all goes on kinda exponentially from this point forward if it works like it's supposed too.


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## CWS

rocky1 said:


> Looking at that again, is that a piece of comb or is it the thumb on your glove hanging down there?
> 
> That much brood will likely fill a frame or two up with bees. It's amazing what they cover when you lay them down on the comb, versus stacking them on end in the comb. As the population increases, more bees will be able to get out and fly and make a little honey and pollen, increasing their ability to raise more brood. And, you'll have more bees to cover brood and tend to it. It all goes on kinda exponentially from this point forward if it works like it's supposed too.


That was a glove finger. one glove on and one off.

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## rocky1

How's the bugs doin? Hive getting full yet?


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## CWS

rocky1 said:


> How's the bugs doin? Hive getting full yet?


I am going to check today. Looks like the sun is going to shine. I have learned my lesson about checking them on a cloudy day. Ever bee is at home on cool and cloudy days.

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## rocky1

Yeah, and as a rule, most of them are grumpy!

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## CWS

Checked the hive today and found about three frames with both sides that looks like this one. Also a lot of young bees.

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## rocky1

If you have 3 frames like that, it's going to get big real shortly. As that hatches off they expand more and more rapidly. How's their feed supply Curt, I assume you have something blooming up there by now, but not all plants produce a lot of nectar. They have any honey and pollen stored? You might increase feed if they're not storing anything. My father would put a 5 lb. jar on them daily trying to get foundation drawn, but that can be counter productive if they pack the broodnest. On a smaller cluster like that I would expect to see some feed around the top corners of the frames, so I'm wondering if they're finding enough nectar to accumulate any. Obviously finding enough to brood up, which is good. Don't see any pollen stored either, but they'll usually put that off to the side on a separate frame outside of the brood pattern.


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## CWS

I have acres of white clover. It started blooming about 2 weeks ago. There is some honey being stored in the corners of some of the other frames. At what time should I add the honey super?
Thanks 
Curt


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## rocky1

You could put it on them now, but they'll move up, quicker than out, and therefore it will slow progress on drawing your brood combs and developing the broodnest. If you want to expedite growth at this point, you could use high density foam to restrict area in the hive, cut a couple pieces to fit tight inside the hive, set an empty hivebody on top, and stack your brood combs until you get them drawn. They have to maintain temperature in the hive, and since heat rises, stacking the brood combs allows them to maintain temperature easier than spreading them across the hivebody. In the event of cool nights, this allows hem

As they start storing honey in the broodnest, you can move it out and persuade them to draw foundation a little quicker. However, you don't want to move it way out, as they need it to feed on, and they have to be able to protect it. Just slide it out a frame or so, and move a frame of foundation inside of it. If they don't seal the honey in the broodnest, they will move it up if you set combs above it. With foundation going on them, they may move it up, or they may seal it in the broodnest. 

In reference to the aforementioned "crowding", you should see something of this nature going on, this one is a honey super that they had about filled. As they fill everything in the comb, they will typically start "whitening" the comb with fresh wax, stretching it slightly to allow overfilling of the cells. When you get into commercial goodies, automated extracting systems, you want thicker fatter combs, it makes them easier to extract, so you space the frames, using metal spacers, as is the case here. Others use self spacing end bars, however those may require changes/adjustments to your uncapper to run them. 








Crowding can also look like this, but this isn't always indicative of the hive being crowded. In this particular case, it's heat related... 100 degrees sitting in the middle of a plowed field will do this to them. Probably very few bees in the hive, they're all sitting on the front porch enjoying the evening breeze, waiting on the house to cool down.

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## CWS

Will they swam if it gets to crowded?
Thanks


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## rocky1

Yeah, if they get really crowded, they are subject to swarm. With three frames of bees like you have pictured above, in a 10 frame box, you've got a long ways to go before you're looking at swarming problems. They may swarm without it getting crowded Curt, you never know anymore, it's genetic thing.

You should see one of the two crowding problems pictured above, before you see an issue with swarming. But, it doesn't always happen that way. Typically however, they'll start laying out on the outside of the hive because it's crowded, which again that can be heat related so don't get real excited if it happens on a hot day. If they're laying out, check them and look for signs of crowding inside. If you find both; add room.

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## CWS

rocky1 said:


> Yeah, if they get really crowded, they are subject to swarm. With three frames of bees like you have pictured above, in a 10 frame box, you've got a long ways to go before you're looking at swarming problems. They may swarm without it getting crowded Curt, you never know anymore, it's genetic thing.
> 
> You should see one of the two crowding problems pictured above, before you see an issue with swarming. But, it doesn't always happen that way. Typically however, they'll start laying out on the outside of the hive because it's crowded, which again that can be heat related so don't get real excited if it happens on a hot day. If they're laying out, check them and look for signs of crowding inside. If you find both; add room.


Thanks


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## gman2431

Rocky, we have 3 to 4 eggs per cell going on with the same queen that's been in there for 2 years. What ya think?


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## rocky1

I assume she's marked if you can positively identify her as the same queen Cody? Otherwise, they can raise their own, and at times you'll never know that they raised one, she'll look just like her momma, they'll tear the cell down and hide the evidence, and the beekeeper is none the wiser. 

Keep an eye on your brood, in about 2 weeks, 2 1/2 weeks at the outside end of that, the stuff where you're seeing 3 - 4 eggs should be sealed. Make sure you have Worker brood and not Drone brood. I'm guessing you are likely to find drone brood with that many eggs in the cell.

Several things can cause what you're seeing Cody...

-- If she's really spun up and wanting to lay and the bee population isn't sufficient to cover all she wants to lay, occasionally that will happen, but if she's going on 3 years old, I really wouldn't anticipate that. This scenario is typically seen with a fresh young queen, that's fired up. Not saying it can't happen with an older queen, bees do strange things all the time to keep us all scratching our heads, it's just not common. If everything has just started blooming and the population is down in the hive, it could be. If that's the case however, you will see lots of worker brood in a couple weeks.

-- Second remote possibility... You may have a young queen in there that has just started laying, with the old queen running around laying too. In this case one typically finds your old queen, especially if she is in fact marked. And, you over look the younger unmarked queen, because she's fired up and more apt to be backed into a cell someplace laying. Not to mention, you're not looking for her if you have a marked queen. 

Yeah, I know they are only supposed to have one queen, and she is supposed to kill all others, BUT... We do on a fairly regular basis find 2 laying queens in a hive, and have found as many as 4 queens in a single hive. (_As stated above, they'll keep you scratching your head!_) If that's the case, sit back and smile, let them do their thing, when the hive gets built up nicely, split it, putting one queen in each half. Or, leave it, stack lots of empties on it, and make lots of honey. 

The other options are not good news.

-- As the queen gets older, starts running out of sperm to fertilize eggs, or in the event the queen contracts Nosema Cerannae wherein the reproductive organs of the queen can be affected by the ulcer causing bacteria, they often do weird things like that. Not sure about everyone else, but we refer to it as the queen 'breaking down', she does all sorts of weird crap then loses her ability to reproduce. In early stages of that scenario, I have seen them lay multiple eggs in the cell like you're talking about. At that point you may see drone brood scattered randomly throughout the worker brood in a fairly decent to even good brood pattern in the hive. When this happens you see random cells across the frame that will be capped much taller than others, for those not familiar with the difference. The Drone larvae being much bigger, it requires more room in the cell. It won't be a nice level frame of brood like Curt pictured above; it'll be all bumpy. Once she passes that point, she'll start skipping cells, laying randomly around frames through the hive, most of it will be drone brood at that point, or the brood will simply die in the cell before being capped, resembling European Foulbrood or Sac Brood at times. Haven't seen it in writing, but I believe the Nosema bacteria attacks the larvae killing and consuming it before it develops.

The queen will eventually stop laying altogether when she breaks down, *although she may not die for some time after she quits laying*.

This creates a problem because she will remain dominant and try to kill any and all queens they try to raise, provided they can find a fertile egg to raise one, and she is usually successful at it. Because she will attack them in the queen cell, when they start chirping at the bees to let them out of the cell. When this happens, she will kill all potential successors, and then eventually die herself, and your hive will simply come up queenless and broodless.

HOWEVER... It can and often does appear queenless, well before it is actually queenless, and attempts to requeen it are often unsuccessful, because the sterile queen and/or workers in the hive that think she is still head of the hive, will kill your $25 - $30 caged queen when you put her in there. I had terrific success requeening queenless hives this spring, but that's not always the case. I would dare say we were 90% or better success rate, simply popping a queen in queenless hives when we ran across them, if they had enough bees to try and save it. If you've got a nosema problem in the operation, and start popping $25 queens in queenless hives, it's not unusual to see 60 - 75% of them not accepted, unless you shake all of the bees out of every one of them you requeen. And, even then you may see half of them rejected. So by all means, if you ever attempt to try and requeen one that's full of bees, and it appears to mysteriously have lost it's queen, look it VERY CLOSELY for a queen before installing the caged queen.

-- The other commonly seen culprit in such scenarios is laying workers. And, 3-5 eggs to the cell is usually common for laying workers. Most folks refer to this in singular, suggesting there is only one "laying worker". But given the number of times you see the 3-5 eggs per cell in this situation, and I've never seen a worker bee stretched out like a queen, I've often wondered if it isn't more a group effort thing.

Laying workers don't have enough ass to reach the bottom of the cell in brood combs however, so you will almost without fail, see their eggs laid up on the sides of the cell. If you get one that's really giving it the full effort, she'll deposit them about where the rounded cup at the bottom of the cell begins to straighten out up the side of the cell, and she may deposit 2 - 3 eggs in close proximity. If you get what appears to be the group effort thing going, there's subject to be eggs shot out all over the walls, at different depths, in different places, I've seen 4 - 8 eggs in the cells, you'll find them laying on their side, or even 2-3 piled up in the bottom of the cell, where they've backed in and just dropped them.

A young queen may drag eggs up the side of the cell for a day or two, before her abdomen fills completely and she stretches out, but usually she'll only drop one egg when she does this. If you have a bunch of eggs and they're up on the sides of the cells, odds are you've got a laying working and you're probably going to have nothing but drone brood shortly.

IF your queen is still good, you should find her laying eggs in the bottom of the cells, but typically if the queen is laying, workers don't. Although again, I have seen it happen, so don't rule it out.


If it is a laying worker, attempting to requeen it is going to be a waste of time and money Cody. You can put a caged queen in it, you can put brood in it and put a cage in it, you can put brood in it and try to force a cell, and it's probably going to come up queenless no matter what you do to it. If you can find a cell well underway on a brood comb in another hive, you might get them to take her if she hatches out in the hive, but they typically won't raise one on their own, and they will almost without fail kill a caged queen when you put them in. If you have another hive nearby, best thing you can do, is shake the bees out of the hive with the laying worker, double the broodnest up on the other hive, and let those bees drift into the other hive, forcing them to go through the front door and be read the rules before entering. Let them sort it out with the other hive. Then give them a few weeks to build up and brood up, and split it and introduce a new queen. At that point the workers will no longer be laying, and they'll take a new queen.

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## gman2431

Thanks Rock! Let me run this by the queen bee with two legs and see what she says! She knows alot more than I....

I do know our queen is marked so it's still the same one we have always had.

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## CWS

If I was going to type all of that information I would have been all night. Always good advice.

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## rocky1

There is so much "cut and dried" information in this business that simply isn't "cut and dried" that it ain't even funny.


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## CWS

rocky1 said:


> There is so much "cut and dried" information in this business that simply isn't "cut and dried" that it ain't even funny.


I appreciate all the help with my bees. I know you are busy this time of year.
Curt

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## rocky1

Next few weeks are a little hectic, no doubt. Told the old man, I'm too damned old to be out here pulling honey in this heat, I have the boys looking for additional help for a few weeks. We have all of our honey to pull (_which isn't a lot, since it's incidental to pollination and most watermelon fields are for some reason a long ways from anything that is supposed to make honey_), then I need to extract it all, then I have 1500 hives of bees to treat, haul back from watermelon fields, go through them, and get the damn things ready to go to ND. He didn't grumble but a little bit. Told him if I had a damn heart attack and died in the bee yard, he was going to have to take over. That put an end to grumbling!

Picked up an extra kid, the three boys are boogeying right along, I've been pretty impressed. Now if I could just get them to work on time and we could get watermelon picking crews out of the way we'd be done. May have run a picking crew off today, not sure. They were sitting in the shade waiting on picking buses, and I wasn't driving 10 miles out of my way to go back over there to rob half the bees in one field, when they could start on the other side of the field, or just 2 - 3 rows out and pick. Farmer said, "Well it isn't goin to take them but a couple hours." I said, "It isn't going to take us an hour. And, 20 minutes after we're gone, the bees will be back to normal." Only beeyard in the last 2 days that they started robbing the truck. There was bees everywhere when I pulled out. Oh well! 

Have 260 hives in Branford left, 700 or so already pulled, most of what's left have very little to no honey on them, probably 80 or more with nothing above the feed super. There's another 325 in Madison/Lee area, not sure exactly how many with supers to pull, another 170 or so with no supers to pull. After tomorrow, there will be none over that direction. Probably 4 days or more of extracting. Then go through all the bees, and ship them in about 2weeks. Then I slow down for a few months. I FLIPPIN HOPE!!

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## Mr. Peet

rocky1 said:


> Next few weeks are a little hectic, no doubt. Told the old man, I'm too damned old to be out here pulling honey in this heat, I have the boys looking for additional help for a few weeks. We have all of our honey to pull (_which isn't a lot, since it's incidental to pollination and most watermelon fields are for some reason a long ways from anything that is supposed to make honey_), then I need to extract it all, then I have 1500 hives of bees to treat, haul back from watermelon fields, go through them, and get the damn things ready to go to ND. He didn't grumble but a little bit. Told him if I had a damn heart attack and died in the bee yard, he was going to have to take over. That put an end to grumbling!
> 
> Picked up an extra kid, the three boys are boogeying right along, I've been pretty impressed. Now if I could just get them to work on time and we could get watermelon picking crews out of the way we'd be done. May have run a picking crew off today, not sure. They were sitting in the shade waiting on picking buses, and I wasn't driving 10 miles out of my way to go back over there to rob half the bees in one field, when they could start on the other side of the field, or just 2 - 3 rows out and pick. Farmer said, "Well it isn't goin to take them but a couple hours." I said, "It isn't going to take us an hour. And, 20 minutes after we're gone, the bees will be back to normal." Only beeyard in the last 2 days that they started robbing the truck. There was bees everywhere when I pulled out. Oh well!
> 
> Have 260 hives in Branford left, 700 or so already pulled, most of what's left have very little to no honey on them, probably 80 or more with nothing above the feed super. There's another 325 in Madison/Lee area, not sure exactly how many with supers to pull, another 170 or so with no supers to pull. After tomorrow, there will be none over that direction. Probably 4 days or more of extracting. Then go through all the bees, and ship them in about 2weeks. Then I slow down for a few months. I FLIPPIN HOPE!!



We woke up to the mid 30's, another brisk morning. Our watermelon plants are coming along great, about the size of a basket ball. Hope to get a few melons before the September frost arrives. Seems like worlds apart...


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## rocky1

Melons here are done, burning up in the field with the heat, and dry weather. Can't pump enough water to them to keep them going. Growers are already telling us we can pick them up whenever we want.

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## CWS

If I was 40 years younger and had my health I would come down and help out for a couple weeks. I am thinking of getting another hive of bees, but it will be too late soon.


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## rocky1

At this stage of the game you'd do best to buy a nice Curt. If you can yours healthy through the winter and start feeding thin syrup and pollen substitute soon as it starts to warm up a little next spring, you could probably split your existing hive a time or two before the bloom starts. IF you can find queens. They are usually tough to come by spring of the year because everyone ships bees to California, they build up on the almonds then they want to split them all.


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## CWS

rocky1 said:


> At this stage of the game you'd do best to buy a nice Curt. If you can yours healthy through the winter and start feeding thin syrup and pollen substitute soon as it starts to warm up a little next spring, you could probably split your existing hive a time or two before the bloom starts. IF you can find queens. They are usually tough to come by spring of the year because everyone ships bees to California, they build up on the almonds then they want to split them all.


I have found some NUC'S available in the area, just need to pull the trigger. going to decide this weekend after I check my hive.

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## rocky1

Damn spell checking phone... At least you were able to translate. Yeah, it's just getting a little late for a package on foundation at this point. You need something a little better established.


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## CWS

rocky1 said:


> Damn spell checking phone... At least you were able to translate. Yeah, it's just getting a little late for a package on foundation at this point. You need something a little better established.


There is probably a lot of people that would like a nice Curt.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3


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## Lou Currier

Found this...

https://www.instructables.com/id/Beekeeping/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email

Reactions: Useful 1


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## CWS

Lou Currier said:


> Found this...
> 
> https://www.instructables.com/id/Beekeeping/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email


Thank you Lou for the information. A lot of things to look at on that site. I will have to check with my mentor @rocky1 before I go try any of those things.
Once again thanks.


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## CWS

The article on the the bee vacuum was very interesting.


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## rocky1



Reactions: Great Post 1 | Funny 2


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## CWS

rocky1 said:


> View attachment 167114


Just wanted @Lou Currier to feel like he was being helpful.

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## rocky1

Speaking from experience, you want to stay away from swarms in house walls Curt. Unless you're getting paid handsomely for the remodeling job that ensues afterward.

Can of wasp and hornet spray, tube of caulking, can work effectively. In many applications in house walls however, it's not uncommon for them to go up, down, left or right from the hole in the wall they use for an entrance several feet, and it can be impossible to kill them. Last one I did, the nephew had tried spraying it 2 - 3 times to no avail, owner told me the house was being torn down, and he needed them gone before the demolition crew started. I took out the lathe and plaster on the interior wall, ripped the hive apart, spraying as I went. Helluva mess!!! But, those were 2 studs over from where they were entering around the window, 2 spans in the wall, expanding into a third. Comb covered an area 3 - 4 ft high x 3 ft wide, much of which was 2 combs deep adjacent to inner and outer wall finish, however a great deal of it was built randomly in every direction under the sun. Pretty much a 6 ft x 8 ft hole in the wall to make certain I got it all. 


Fail side of the bee vacuums is... Unless you are really careful, you suck the hose full of honey, and the bees all stick in the hose. It's gonna happen to some extent regardless of how careful you are. If you do it, submerging the hose in water and letting it sit for a day or two will loosen the honey inside the hose.


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## CWS

rocky1 said:


> Speaking from experience, you want to stay away from swarms in house walls Curt. Unless you're getting paid handsomely for the remodeling job that ensues afterward.
> 
> Can of wasp and hornet spray, tube of caulking, can work effectively. In many applications in house walls however, it's not uncommon for them to go up, down, left or right from the hole in the wall they use for an entrance several feet, and it can be impossible to kill them. Last one I did, the nephew had tried spraying it 2 - 3 times to no avail, owner told me the house was being torn down, and he needed them gone before the demolition crew started. I took out the lathe and plaster on the interior wall, ripped the hive apart, spraying as I went. Helluva mess!!! But, those were 2 studs over from where they were entering around the window, 2 spans in the wall, expanding into a third. Comb covered an area 3 - 4 ft high x 3 ft wide, much of which was 2 combs deep adjacent to inner and outer wall finish, however a great deal of it was built randomly in every direction under the sun. Pretty much a 6 ft x 8 ft hole in the wall to make certain I got it all.
> 
> 
> Fail side of the bee vacuums is... Unless you are really careful, you suck the hose full of honey, and the bees all stick in the hose. It's gonna happen to some extent regardless of how careful you are. If you do it, submerging the hose in water and letting it sit for a day or two will loosen the honey inside the hose.


I have seen a horror story once about getting bees out of a wall at my brothers house. I have turned down 2 offers this spring about getting bees out of a wall.

Reactions: Like 1


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## rocky1

Been down that road a time or two. Get the "Oh we're remodeling, you can leave the hole in the wall." Hive rounds the corner and runs up into the attic, or under floor joist, around windows. If the contractor calls and says he'll pay you by the hour to exterminate them, then it might be worth your time. 

The second problem is, the spot will always smell like a beehive and attract more swarms in the future unless ALL cracks are sealed up tight. Then you get repeat calls because you didn't get them all.


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## Lou Currier




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## CWS

Checked the hive today. Can't believe the number of bees. Got to see some bees being born or whatever it is called when they come out of the cell. Cute little fuzzy things. There is a lot of brood and a lot more pollen than was there last week. Going to pick up a nuc on Thursday. If one hive is fun then 2 ought to be twice as fun.

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## rocky1

You should try 2 - 3 thousand!


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## Lou Currier




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## rocky1

This is what "about 2 - 3 thousand" looks like! Loaded 5 loads of 408 hives out in one day, and loaded and shipped a load of honey that day. 

There was 2 of us!

Reactions: Way Cool 3


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## Lou Currier

That would suck for the truck to tip over on the highway.


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## rocky1

Yeah... It happens! Dependent upon where and what time of day, it can be handled different ways. Attempt recovery if it isn't too bad. If it's really ugly, out in the country, they used to drag the truck and trailer out of the mess and set fire to them. But, they've learned that foam suffocates the bees, and breaks down their exoskeleton, killing them, so they call in the fire truck with the water cannon, hook up the foam machine, and play Mr. Bubble to control the bees themselves until they can do something with the equipment. 

Passed a wreck just outside Cape Girardeau years ago, driver had a heart attack, ran off the road and simply layed the truck over. Over half the load was still strapped to the trailer, laying on it's side. Don't know if they got it upright with bees on or not, but they had everything that came loose picked up and out of the way to attempt such. 

Dad lost the rear wheels on a one ton loaded with bees one time and lost half the load, worst part was having to cut the ropes and let the other half fall off. Wasn't pretty at all.


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## CWS

rocky1 said:


> This is what "about 2 - 3 thousand" looks like! Loaded 5 loads of 408 hives out in one day, and loaded and shipped a load of honey that day.
> 
> There was 2 of us!
> 
> View attachment 167264
> 
> View attachment 167265
> 
> View attachment 167266
> 
> View attachment 167268


If I was 40 years younger and had my health I still couldn't do all that in a day. How much honey do you ship at one time?


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## rocky1

Pictures up there were beginning of the day... They're pretty deceiving, temps were hovering about 40. Then it started raining, rain turned to sleet, looked like this when the last load went on.


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## CWS

Doesn't look like any fun to me.


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## rocky1

CWS said:


> If I was 40 years younger and had my health I still couldn't do all that in a day. How much honey do you ship at one time?



Depends upon truck/trailer combination and what they can haul Curt, but typically 62 - 64 drums. Reefer unit hung on the front of a trailer weighs about 1500 lbs. so you typically loose 2 drums if they send you a reefer. Drum weights vary drastically dependent upon drum, they all say 55 gallons, but they aren't. Sue Bee Honey drums, which are all built to their specifications, and consistently sized, will average around 640 lbs. calculate them at 650 lbs. to be safe and you're a little over 41,000 lbs. to the load on 64. All the other mickey mouse drums you get will vary from 625 lbs. or so, up to 740 lbs. or so. Likewise moisture content in the honey can affect weight of the drum, as can monkey filling the drum and how full he makes it. 




CWS said:


> Doesn't look like any fun to me.



It wasn't! Was an all day wet and cold situation. Bees weren't a problem! Never lit a smoker, never saw a bee peek out. But with all the water the equipment soaked up, ice sticking under the trailers and what not, they were all over weight by a few hundred pounds. (_Except the first one that left in the morning._) Had to go down to Mandan the next morning, open the back of the net up and take 4 pallets off the back of each load. 

Unloaded and spread 7 loads in one night, right at 3000 hives, (_more than 2 of us, had monkeys to open gates and smoke bees_), borrowed truck and loader so we had 3 big trucks and 1 ton, and 3 forklifts... Never do that bullpuckey again either! Started at 8 pm., got a 10 - 15 minute nap in about 4 am. between trucks. Ate breakfast at 8 am., before going home and calling it a night.


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## CWS

You may have talked me out of getting another hive.

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## CWS

I got my nuc today. The lady gave me 7 frames with brood and 2 frames of honey about half full. The queen was a black queen , but can't remember what kind she said it was. She said I should add a super and gave me to frames of honey to start the honey super.

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## rocky1

Black queen is likely carniolan. Good queens, build up quick, (a plus at this stage of the game), slow to start building in spring however, and notorious for propolizing and burring things up. You'll need to clean up behind them more frequently than Italian queens, or you'll need your chainsaw to get frames out in a year or so.

Cordovans I stay away from... Ordered a bunch of those one year and they'll break you feeding them. Fed them 3-4 times as much as everything else and could not put weight on them. Finally said the hell with it, put them on the same feed schedule as everything else, and let them starve. Was glad to see them gone.

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## rocky1

Send this one to your bee keeping buddies in a few weeks and tell them your nuc grew up in a hurry!





Hive swarmed in the bunching yard, two semi loads of bees loaded while it was hanging in the tree. Was a pretty decent swarm to start then everything left flying drifted to the swarm.

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## CWS

What kind of supplement do you feed your bees and when do you have to feed them?


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## CWS

Better yet I'll to the lady I bought the bees from and ask her what happened. My bee buddies don't even believe half of what I say.

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## rocky1

They spend to much time on the bee source bee keeping forum. Where people are elated extracting their first year's crop, which amounts to about as much honey as I wash off my hands each day in the extracting room. And, treat for mites with powdered sugar, which does nothing to rid the hive of mites, it simply makes them fall off the bee until the powdered sugar is gone. If they fall off in the hive, they come right back to the bee.

Typically supplement feed here in Florida from June through March. Both sugar syrup and pollen substitute. Otherwise mite treat every 30 - 60 days, anti-biotics 2-3 times a year, beetle treat as necessary. Drench with honey bee healthy 2-3 times a year.

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## CWS

Thanks!


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## CWS

rocky1 said:


> Black queen is likely carniolan. Good queens, build up quick, (a plus at this stage of the game), slow to start building in spring however, and notorious for propolizing and burring things up. You'll need to clean up behind them more frequently than Italian queens, or you'll need your chainsaw to get frames out in a year or so.
> 
> Cordovans I stay away from... Ordered a bunch of those one year and they'll break you feeding them. Fed them 3-4 times as much as everything else and could not put weight on them. Finally said the hell with it, put them on the same feed schedule as everything else, and let them starve. Was glad to see them gone.


The black queen is a saskatraz, developed in Canada


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## rocky1

CWS said:


> The black queen is a saskatraz, developed in Canada



New one on me, probably keep the hive immaculate, polish all the cappings, and keep little blue lighters laying around like @Kenbo !

Have to wonder how well they tolerate heat. The Minnesota Hygenic worked extremely well in the north country, but were prone to heat stress in the deep south. Those were developed by Marla Spivek at the University of Minnesota; liked her approach, she didn't treat for much if anything, bred her stock out of survivors to find genetic traits for natural resistance to the issues we confront. I know Marla was working on trying to breed that out of them the last time I visited with her, but honestly don't know where that's at. She had someone in Texas working with her on the project. Tried to get her to send some our way to play with, but she said her resources were limited and she couldn't afford to travel more than one direction, at the time. Sharp gal, knows bees, not your normal college educamated genius. Does a helluva presentation, able to communicate very technical data on a normal people level. Does classes for beginning beekeepers as well. 

https://www.beelab.umn.edu/bee-squad/education/beekeeping-classes

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## rocky1

IF you have access to anti-biotics for poultry, most is soluable, meaning it can be mixed with their water. Most of it will generally work for bees Curt. Tylan... Tylosin Tartrate is the industry standard, and is labeled for treating bees, but any broad spectrum anti-biotic will work. They may not be labeled for treating bees, but they are generally effective, and some may work better for things Tylan doesn't do well at. Sulfathiazole, Aureamyacin, we used to use Galeaomycin also but it appears to be discontinued, can all be mixed with powdered sugar and applied over the brood nest, or mixed with sugar syrup and drench the hive, (_pour 8 ounces of syrup directly over the brood nest_) when not on a honey flow. Obviously you wouldn't want to drench when it was extremely cold out, and it typically is advised to avoid drenching or feeding them anti-biotics during a honey flow as the syrup may be picked up and stored in the honey. The minute amount applied to the hive probably isn't going to hurt anything on one or two hives, but accumulative over several thousand hives, they might frown on traces found when analyzed. I still don't believe it would hurt anything, but in today's society... 

I honestly wouldn't know how to even tell you how to mix that little to treat 2 hives. We mix 33 grams of Tylan with 2 lbs of powdered sugar in a gallon plastic bottle, mix thoroughly shaking it back and forth, rolling the bottle across the counter/truck bed. And, that will treat about 80 hives, at approximately 2 tablespoons to the hive.

It can be mixed with syrup and fed as well in the off season, but Tylan does break down in sunlight so if applied in feed, it needs to be fed inside the hive. The bee keeping suppliers have it packaged in one or two hive doses, but you'll have to have a prescription from your veterinarian to purchase it. One could see what they package, and do the chemistry to find 1 or 2 hive dose.

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## rocky1

Semi supposed to be here today called said he'd be here tomorrow. Weather looked favorable for moving bees all afternoon, so I stayed home and shot hogs last night

Checked radar trying to time picking up bees with rain moving in. Got pretty close. 6 pallets left when this hit...



 

Got to 2 before getting in the truck soaking wet. Winds 30 - 40 mph, rain coming down horizontally.

Typically pick this yard up east to west, my monkey was on West end with smoker and I told him to start down there this trip.

Got out of the truck when it eased up a little, and...





There were bees there 5 minutes earlier! Not to mention had I started on the other end I would have likely been there when the tree fell!!

Life is good!

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## T. Ben

Wow,lucky you.


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## rocky1

On a positive note, I talked with the guy that farms it, went to school with him way back when, and told him I had some empty bee boxes in there I needed to retrieve next week. So he's going to leave it so we can clean up, and I get to cut it up. Decent sized sweet gum.

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## T. Ben

You really got lucky then.


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## rocky1

Yeah I didn't look at it real close, but I'm thinking 12 - 16 inches at the base, maybe bigger, forked in 2-3 directions off main trunk, so no telling what I might find.


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## CWS

Glad you are ok. A little water is not going to hurt you much. I would rather be lucky than good.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## rocky1

Yeah, sometimes you wonder about things like that. I was on the forklift, and was already at the other end of the yard. When the kid started back I yelled at him and told him to just start down there. Very seldom do that, never do it when I'm picking them all up. Strip where the bees are sitting is the smoothest spot in there, the remainder has been farmed and is a little rough in spots, so it's simply easier to pick them up down the row, and back over the smooth strip, then run around the truck to set them on. Elected to haul them over the rough stuff to save him walking back. Saved several pallets of bees, the aggravation of having to clean up the mess, and the seat of my shorts and/or potential injury on that deal. 

But yeah, we were wet! Water was running off my hat so fast, under the roof on the forklift, that my veil was a solid sheet of water. Couldn't see a thing!


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## CWS

How bad is it for the bees when they are in a rain storm like this?


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## rocky1

Not bad. Most will run inside, those that can't get in, or simply refuse to run in, hang on the outside of the box until the sun comes out and they dry off. There will be a few get knocked off, but most will crawl back up and dry. Losses to such an event are insignificant, unless it's a super cool rain and the temperature drops afterwards, or there's a lot of hail involved.


Bees have built in barometers, they can sense the intensity of storms as they approach, so they prepare accordingly. Last week I had bees flying in the rain when I got there to pick them up, as many going out as were coming in. An hour later I had nothing but in bound traffic and it was clear out. 10 minutes later however, it was flooding! They sense the change in barometric pressure, they know more than we do.

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## rocky1

First load is headed north!

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## CWS

@rocky1 Checked my package bees today and they are not doing well. They have very little pollen stored. They do have some bee bread stored.There is capped brood and larvae in different stages of development but not a lot of either. There are cells with uncapped honey but no cells or very few capped honey. Anything I should check for. I have a local beekeeper coming over later this week to check things out. Then maybe I don't know what I am doing. Also they are not building much comb. Out of 10 frames only 7 have comb.


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## rocky1

Welcome to the bee business! 

-- Cool wet weather would be my first guess. You folks been seeing a great deal of rain up there haven't you? If so, lack of feed may have the queen slowed laying. Do you have any pollen substitute? If so, dump a little in your inner cover, and mix up some syrup for them. If not, go to the Mann Lake website and order the good stuff. Or, order some of their pollen patties one. You probably won't need but one or two, throw the rest in the freezer. Hive beetles love them too. 

Not only can the bees not fly when it's raining, (_well to a certain extent they can, but they usually don't_), the rain can impact what the plant produces as well. Different plants deal with it in different ways Curt, but many will shut down for a day or so after it rains. If it's raining every day, the plants simply may not produce. Likewise, different plants prefer different types of weather; clover likes hot days and cool nights. If you've got cool days, or hot nights it doesn't produce as well either. And, if you have excessive moisture, the nectar will typically be extremely thin, what they are hauling won't amount to much when they fan the moisture out of it. 

While the nephew had suggested the clover was going to be early in North Dakota this year, he later revised that to, "There's a little trickling in, but it's probably going to be a week or two." And, now we're at, "It's been cool and raining for the last week or so, and they aren't doing a damn thing right now, but it's supposed to warm up next week." None of which I want to hear, up to the point about "it's supposed to warm up next week". I do not need cool and rainy at this stage of the game; I have a whole bunch of seriously strong bees, many of which are short on feed, and they need to find a honey flow when they get to ND. 



 



 



 



 



 




 



 



 



 



 

I need a honey flow, when they hit the ground, and the first load arrived Saturday night.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## rocky1

Beyond that... 

-- Mites - Have you treated for them yet? 
-- Hive Beetles - I doubt you have them. But, you'd know it if you did. 
-- Nosema - See above post on Anti-Biotics. 

As for the 7 frames of foundation drawn, if the honey flow tapers off, and the queen slows down, yes they stop drawing it. That's not out of the ordinary. You need bees to cover it, to get it drawn, they need to be motivated to make additional room, and they must have more than ample feed. That's normal!


Oh yes... Feel free to share above pictures with your beekeeping friends. I just want to know what they have to say.

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## CWS

We have had rain and cloudy days for a week. I did give them some syrup last night. Need to check my nuc today. Thanks for the information.


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## rocky1

I'd order some pollen patties and toss them in the freezer. If the weather persists, cut them in half and put half a patty on them. They need the protein to push the queen to rear brood and feed the larvae. Without an ample supply of pollen she won't lay as much, and in severe shortage they will go so far as cannabalizing the brood for feed value.

Need to order mite strips and treat both hives as well. Waiting until you see mites or mite damage is to late. Preemptive treatment is desirable on that count.

Weather turning around and warm sunny days is what you need most at this point. But, you can't fix that.

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## rocky1

On the pollen substitute Curt you can purchase that dry, feed it in your inner cover. We build a box to feed it open in the yard since the bees are able to fly here all of the year. Have been having good luck with the Mann Lake Ultra Bee.

Pollen patties work good IF the bees eat them up, and make it go away in short order. If it remains in the hive to long, hive beatles will feed on it, and lay eggs in it. At that point the bees will quit feeding on it, and it rots while raising beetles. Which isn't good! First you are out cost of the patty, and second you don't want the beetles to contend with. If you feed those, cut them in half so they clean them up quicker. Easier to put half of one in every few days, than deal with the beetle problems.

Storage is a toss up... Patties you simply toss in the freezer. Cut in half before putting them in, it'll make thawing and feeding easier. The dry stuff you simply need a bug tight container once the bag is opened. Weevils will get in it otherwise.

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## CWS

rocky1 said:


> Beyond that...
> 
> -- Mites - Have you treated for them yet?
> -- Hive Beetles - I doubt you have them. But, you'd know it if you did.
> -- Nosema - See above post on Anti-Biotics.
> 
> As for the 7 frames of foundation drawn, if the honey flow tapers off, and the queen slows down, yes they stop drawing it. That's not out of the ordinary. You need bees to cover it, to get it drawn, they need to be motivated to make additional room, and they must have more than ample feed. That's normal!
> 
> 
> Oh yes... Feel free to share above pictures with your beekeeping friends. I just want to know what they have to say.


I keep them informed how the big boys do it. Our white clover bloomed about ten days ago. They couldn't believetheThanks


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## CWS

Patties should be here tomorrow.
Thanks


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## Lou Currier

WOW! Beekeeping is a lot of work

Reactions: Agree 1


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## CWS

Lou Currier said:


> WOW! Beekeeping is a lot of work


And I only have 2 hives. I can't even imagine to work that @rocky1 does.


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## rocky1

Yeah, there is a little more Work to running 1500 - 2000 hives year round. Last 2 weeks we've stripped 1470 hives, which there wasn't a lot of honey on them, but they were scattered over 5 counties, in 50+ drops, sitting on 19 fields. Then extracted 17 drums of honey out of however many supers were on them.

Picked them up, brought them back home, set them down, verified queens, picked up the dead ones, mite treated, medicated, fed the light ones, few of them got 2 jars, pulled all the jars off, picked them back up moved hives around and filled all the dead holes on the pallets, hauled them to the bunching yard, loaded one semi last Thursday, and the second one is bunched and ready to load tomorrow after picking up the last 110 hives tonight, at 448 hives each load.

Restacked and wrapped 144 hivebodies to go on tomorrow's load. All foundation, sending it to ND to try and get it drawn, and give them some extra boxes to put honey in. After they looked at pictures of the bees I posted here, they think they might be short boxes for the 8 framers.

Then we have 300 more hives to pick up and move back here, treat for mites, medicate, feed, double up the dead outs, and try to grow bees all summer out off those. And, we mow grass, move honey for the bottling crew, unload and weigh honey purchased, and assorted other crap in our spare time.

Now y'all know why I haven't been in my shop in 6 months.

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## Eric Rorabaugh

rocky1 said:


> Now y'all know why I haven't been in my shop in 6 months.



Why not?
Let us know when you have some honey bottled.

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## Lou Currier

So now that the hives are headed to ND does that mean you get a break?


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## rocky1

We slow down for a few months anyhow. After running our asses off this spring to try and make our numbers on the blueberries, I'm going to attempt to grow 400 - 600 hives this summer/fall so we aren't behind the 8 ball next spring.

This year we went from 150 good hives we bought, and 450 not so healthy hives, to 900+ in a little over a month, grew those up, doubled 400+ of them, then went to 1470 from February to mid May.

Would have been much easier to grow 2-3 hundred, make up dead outs, and feed bees. Have no desire to repeat that exercise.

In the course of that 450 went 80 miles south, the other 450 went 65 miles north. Ones that went South came back here and got split, ones that went North went 50 miles south to watermelons in March, along with the splits, up to the point we met contracts there, then 500 or so went West 60 miles. Now they're all coming back here. Then going to North Dakota.

To say the least that's a bunch of trips at 80 hives to the load.

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## CWS

Do you buy your queens or raise them yourself ? I guess not much room for you to go east.


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## Wildthings

rocky1 said:


> Yeah, there is a little more Work to running 1500 - 2000 hives year round. Last 2 weeks we've stripped 1470 hives, which there wasn't a lot of honey on them, but they were scattered over 5 counties, in 50+ drops, sitting on 19 fields. Then extracted 17 drums of honey out of however many supers were on them.
> 
> Picked them up, brought them back home, set them down, verified queens, picked up the dead ones, mite treated, medicated, fed the light ones, few of them got 2 jars, pulled all the jars off, picked them back up moved hives around and filled all the dead holes on the pallets, hauled them to the bunching yard, loaded one semi last Thursday, and the second one is bunched and ready to load tomorrow after picking up the last 110 hives tonight, at 448 hives each load.
> 
> Restacked and wrapped 144 hivebodies to go on tomorrow's load. All foundation, sending it to ND to try and get it drawn, and give them some extra boxes to put honey in. After they looked at pictures of the bees I posted here, they think they might be short boxes for the 8 framers.
> 
> Then we have 300 more hives to pick up and move back here, treat for mites, medicate, feed, double up the dead outs, and try to grow bees all summer out off those. And, we mow grass, move honey for the bottling crew, unload and weigh honey purchased, and assorted other crap in our spare time.
> 
> Now y'all know why I haven't been in my shop in 6 months.





rocky1 said:


> We slow down for a few months anyhow. After running our asses off this spring to try and make our numbers on the blueberries, I'm going to attempt to grow 400 - 600 hives this summer/fall so we aren't behind the 8 ball next spring.
> 
> This year we went from 150 good hives we bought, and 450 not so healthy hives, to 900+ in a little over a month, grew those up, doubled 400+ of them, then went to 1470 from February to mid May.
> 
> Would have been much easier to grow 2-3 hundred, make up dead outs, and feed bees. Have no desire to repeat that exercise.
> 
> In the course of that 450 went 80 miles south, the other 450 went 65 miles north. Ones that went South came back here and got split, ones that went North went 50 miles south to watermelons in March, along with the splits, up to the point we met contracts there, then 500 or so went West 60 miles. Now they're all coming back here. Then going to North Dakota.
> 
> To say the least that's a bunch of trips at 80 hives to the load.


OK OK after saying all that! What is the reason you haven't been in your shop for the past 6 months eh?​

Reactions: Funny 3


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## rocky1

CWS said:


> Do you buy your queens or raise them yourself ? I guess not much room for you to go east.




Buy most of them from Kona Queen in Hawaii Curt. The folks out in Hawaii, (_Kona Queen and Big Island Queen_), have the market cornered most of the year. Temperature remains constant, there are always flowers, something blooms year round there. And, it's close enough to the equator that length of daylight doesn't vary a great deal. Even in southern Florida, length of daylight will create problems raising queens here on a commercial basis. Drone numbers are greatly reduced because of length of daylight, and thus you don't have enough drones to mate large numbers of queens, mid-winter.

Otherwise, we occasionally get a few from Arrowsmith out in California, occasionally get a few from Wilbanks in Georgia, have a friend in the bee business down in Alachua that sends lots of packages up there to your part of the world, and they're growing their own queens, so we occasionally get a few cells from him. Neighbor worked for Kona for several years, and he's picked a few hives out for breeders and is about to start grafting some cells, so I may try some of those this summer. Have grown our own; used to grow a PILE of our own. It's time consuming, you need good eyes, once you graft the cells, you are committed! If it decides to rain, you grow bees in the rain. Not bad when you grow a handful, when you have 2 - 3 hundred cells due to hatch on Friday and it decides to rain Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday... It makes for a LONG week!

Reactions: Informative 2


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## rocky1

Wildthings said:


> OK OK after saying all that! What is the reason you haven't been in your shop for the past 6 months eh?​



Because I'm old, and don't move as fast as I used too!!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lou Currier

Excuses


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## rocky1

Nawww... Just an old age thing; I ain't no spring chicken anymore. Have the aches and pains to prove it. Going on 2 quarts of Gatorade at the moment to get the muscle cramps to subside, and I mostly rode around in the truck and on the forklift this afternoon. However, I watch these kids that work for me, and wonder what is this world coming to. Pallet of honey on the truck needed moving about 3-4" the other day, two of them over their gruntin and groanin and cannot move it, I walked over, grabbed the damn thing, shoved it up against the headboard, and moved it in 2 inches by myself. It really wasn't that heavy!!

We all walked away shaking our heads in disbelief, but for different reasons.

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## CWS

most days I am glad I am as old as I AM


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## rocky1

I just hope I survive that long! These yo-yos are killin me! 

Physically attached to their cell phones. Haven't figured out how they hold the damn thing and pick up a beehive, but every time I call them, it goes to voice mail for some reason. 

Some little gal texts them, and they can smell the phone receiving the text message, inside the truck, plugged into the charger, usually before noon because they have killed the battery already, with all the windows up, because every damn thing you tell them, you have to tell them 2-3 times, so I know they can't hear. Two of them are 22, one of them is 19, and I've had to teach all three of them how to load string in the weedeater. 

Fixing to send them after the last 4 loads of bees and take the week off. As slow as they are, and none of them have ever loaded a truck load of bees, they'll be midnight every night getting back, meaning they'll have to sleep until noon at least, and won't be worth a damn when they get there. I can phone in 4 hours worth of work for them, and keep them busy for 2 - 3 days.

Reactions: Funny 1 | +Karma 3


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## ripjack13

Rocky, you should institute a new "No Phones" policy.


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## rocky1

They couldn't function; they'd all go sit in the corner and stare at their empty hand and the floor. Or, at each other if they figure out how to look up. They been looking down at their phone so long their necks are locked up apparently, because every time they get in the truck to drive, they lay the seat down so they can see out the windshield.

The phone honestly isn't the problem Marc, it's the lack of work ethic, the lack of intelligence. They all three, and the last 3-4 we had, have no damn clue what to do without someone standing there telling them step by step. And, if they did have a clue, they're so lazy they wouldn't find anything to do regardless. They'll just sit there on the bench and chat, and play on their phones, until you show up and scream at them, then wonder why you're screaming. Ya think, maybe cause the grass is 6 inches deep, and the lawn mower is right across the drive under the shed from where they are sitting, and they aren't smart enough to figure out what to do, until you get back, might register, but no...

When you yell because they're all sitting around doing nothing, they reply... "Well if I did anything, it would be wrong, and I'd get yelled at!"

So setting aside, "Maybe if you did it right, your dumb ass wouldn't get yelled at!" And moving directly too, "Hello!! You're getting yelled at for doing nothing too yo-yo. There's a 50/50 chance you could actually do something right, IF YOU TRIED DOING SOMETHING, and NOT get yelled at!!" 

I don't know, I grew up with an old man screaming "Breath IN damn it; now... Breath OUT!!!" every time he felt you weren't thinking things through to his expectations. Or, another favorite was, "Why don't you use your head for something besides growing hair and holding your damn ears apart!" And, you certainly didn't sit on a bench and not do anything when you were supposed to be working. If you finished what you were doing, you found something else to do, to occupy your time. The only excuse for sitting down doing nothing, was if you were waiting on the ambulance, then you'd get yelled at for racking up hospital bills, when you should have been working more carefully. If you were sitting down doing nothing, and the ambulance wasn't on the way, he'd make it painful to sit down, and tell you long as you were standing up to walk around and find something to do.

In today's world we aren't supposed to expect that of them I guess, and then they think they're worth 3 times what you're paying them.

Reactions: Great Post 1 | Sincere 2


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## Lou Currier

Offer an incentive...pay them by the job, the quicker they finish it the more they make.


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## rocky1

I've considered the pay them by the job concept. Unfortunately, I'd have to set a time limit on the job too, or it would simply never get done. "Hurry" is not a word in their vocabulary. The one is so slow, we're pretty sure it's going to take his girlfriend 11 months to have his child.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## CWS

I have a new kid who they hired at the water office. I have to remind him every morning it is time to start work. We tried to hire a person with some work ethics. The problem is if they have a good work ethic they already have a job and their employer makes sure they are treated well so they don't want an0ther job.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## CWS

Got some pollen for the bees yesterday. Looks like the weather is going to be good for the next week. That should help them. Thanks for all your help!!

Reactions: Like 1


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## rocky1

CWS said:


> I have a new kid who they hired at the water office. I have to remind him every morning it is time to start work. We tried to hire a person with some work ethics. The problem is if they have a good work ethic they already have a job and their employer makes sure they are treated well so they don't want an0ther job.



Every morning when mine show up at 10:30, I remind them that work starts at 9 o:clock, because I know they won't show up on time at 8. It was a pain in the ass, when it was one of them, now the three employees I have carpool, and since they all ride together, if one of them is late, they're ALL late! On a positive note, the other employees aren't sitting around doing nothing waiting on one guy to show up. 




CWS said:


> Got some pollen for the bees yesterday. Looks like the weather is going to be good for the next week. That should help them. Thanks for all your help!!




If it's dry and you feed it outside the hive, it takes them awhile to find it and actually start working it. You can speed that along by drizzling a little syrup over the top of the pile, and box you have it in. They'll locate the syrup in short order, and start working the pollen substitute from there. Doesn't hurt anything, Patties are nothing more than substitute and syrup mixed. Once they figure out where it's at and what it is, you can set the bag down and open it up, and there will be a bee in the bag before you can pick it up and pour it in the pollen box.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## rocky1

Slippin here on updates... Second load went out Tuesday evening. Weather has been a pain as usual; every time I get a truck to load, it's 95o+ and miserable. The bees tend to overheat quickly with no air flow over them, even if you don't kill bees, you can cook brood and heat stress them immeasurably. So I filled a 250 gallon plastic tote with water, hooked up the syrup pump, and rode in circles in the bee yard for about half hour to cool them down. Worked pretty good honestly! Then they started getting a little warm on the truck as they started piling up, so we proceeded to use the bottom half of the tote up. They looked good when the left, however looking the weather over Wednesday, I'm a little concerned. Appeared to be seriously hot all the way up there today!

Load #2 ready to roll...

Reactions: Way Cool 2


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## Nature Man

rocky1 said:


> Every morning when mine show up at 10:30, I remind them that work starts at 9 o:clock, because I know they won't show up on time at 8. It was a pain in the ass, when it was one of them, now the three employees I have carpool, and since they all ride together, if one of them is late, they're ALL late! On a positive note, the other employees aren't sitting around doing nothing waiting on one guy to show up./QUOTE]
> 
> Why do you keep these guys on the payroll? Was telling my wife about your young employees and she couldn't believe you hadn't fired them! Chuck


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## CWS

Well Chuck, I guess your wife hasn't tried to hire an employee lately. The people who want to work have a job.


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## Nature Man

CWS said:


> Well Chuck, I guess your wife hasn't tried to hire an employee lately. The people who want to work have a job.


So that is what full employment is all about? Chuck

Reactions: Like 1


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## rocky1

Because...

1.) It's difficult to find anyone that wants to work anymore. Unless you're paying $15/hour to start, and offering full benefits, on a part time schedule.
2.) We're 15 miles out in the country, most folks don't want to drive out this far looking for work. 
3.) Working out in the hot sun, hats/veils, bee jackets at times, rain/shine, daylight/dark, no set hours, week nights/weekend nights. Makes all that worse.
4.) Then you toss getting bee stung on a daily basis into that mix, some days dozens of times, some days worse yet, that compounds #1 by leaps and bounds.
5.) All of them have had a little experience in bees. Enough they don't break and run off swatting and screaming when the bees get after them. All of them understand life in the bee business is not always pleasant. There are times you just have to grit your teeth and bear it. 

For all of their issues, they don't get easily offended if I yell at them, and/or tell them that they're retards. They all have pretty even dispositions, and don't get grumpy and show their ass if the bees eat them up, or they have to work late on Friday night at the last minute. None of them are drug addicts; I honestly don't believe any of them drink to any extent. While they definitely aren't the best help I've ever had, they're the only help I have at the moment. And, I can't do all of it by myself.

Reactions: Like 2 | Thank You! 1


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## Nature Man

rocky1 said:


> Because...
> 
> 1.) It's difficult to find anyone that wants to work anymore. Unless you're paying $15/hour to start, and offering full benefits, on a part time schedule.
> 2.) We're 15 miles out in the country, most folks don't want to drive out this far looking for work.
> 3.) Working out in the hot sun, hats/veils, bee jackets at times, rain/shine, daylight/dark, no set hours, week nights/weekend nights. Makes all that worse.
> 4.) Then you toss getting bee stung on a daily basis into that mix, some days dozens of times, some days worse yet, that compounds #1 by leaps and bounds.
> 5.) All of them have had a little experience in bees. Enough they don't break and run off swatting and screaming when the bees get after them. All of them understand life in the bee business is not always pleasant. There are times you just have to grit your teeth and bear it.
> 
> For all of their issues, they don't get easily offended if I yell at them, and/or tell them that they're retards. They all have pretty even dispositions, and don't get grumpy and show their ass if the bees eat them up, or they have to work late on Friday night at the last minute. None of them are drug addicts; I honestly don't believe any of them drink to any extent. While they definitely aren't the best help I've ever had, they're the only help I have at the moment. And, I can't do all of it by myself.


Rocky -
Thanks for the detailed comeback! The fact these kids are drug free is a big plus. The job is hard and demanding, and sounds like you have an opportunity to help shape their lives into the next generation of responsible citizens. The fact they stick around in spite of the negatives you have highlighted actually is encouraging. My hat is off to you for persevering through this ordeal of mentoring these young lads. Hope your work ethic will sink into them! Best of luck in the days ahead! Chuck

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Sincere 1


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## barry richardson

Here is some levity for the bee thread...

Reactions: Funny 4


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## rocky1

Products of today's society Chuck. Two of the three were raised by grandparents, because their parents couldn't confront the reality of raising a child for whatever reason. We all tend to mellow with age, so being raised by grand-parents, they probably never were pushed to the extent they probably should have been. Then often as in my sister's case, she was a great deal of the problem with her son NOT confronting the reality of being a parent. When he refused she too took on the responsibility of raising his child. She didn't do any better the second time around, child got to the point of uncontrollable about 13 years old, and she dumped her back in her daddy's lap, because she could no longer do anything with her. 

As for the boys, the one kid is 19 years old, and never mowed grass or ran a weedeater in his entire life. Grandpa always hired the neighbor who was down on his luck to do it. He's never had to do anything. Good kid in many respects, very polite, listens and does what you tell him to do, he just doesn't know how to do anything. And, has never been taught to look for things that need doing.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nature Man

rocky1 said:


> Products of today's society Chuck. Two of the three were raised by grandparents, because their parents couldn't confront the reality of raising a child for whatever reason. We all tend to mellow with age, so being raised by grand-parents, they probably never were pushed to the extent they probably should have been. Then often as in my sister's case, she was a great deal of the problem with her son NOT confronting the reality of being a parent. When he refused she too took on the responsibility of raising his child. She didn't do any better the second time around, child got to the point of uncontrollable about 13 years old, and she dumped her back in her daddy's lap, because she could no longer do anything with her.
> 
> As for the boys, the one kid is 19 years old, and never mowed grass or ran a weedeater in his entire life. Grandpa always hired the neighbor who was down on his luck to do it. He's never had to do anything. Good kid in many respects, very polite, listens and does what you tell him to do, he just doesn't know how to do anything. And, has never been taught to look for things that need doing.


Definitely not the world we grew up in! Lots of struggles we never had to face. You are undoubtedly a bright spot in their lives. Just maybe with your prodding they will survive. Sounds like they have potential! Hang in there with them! Chuck

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## CWS

Update on bees. Since I added syrup to the hives last week, ( as suggested by my mentor @rocky1) I cannot believe the amount of comb the package bees have made. They are doing well, queen is laying and plenty of bees. I checked for mites and found none. The nuc on the other hand has lost their queen. I could not find any eggs or larvae last night. Did not find any queen cells so I think I will have to get a new queen.


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## rocky1

Look closely for the old queen before putting the new one in Curt. In today's bee world it's not at all uncommon for them to still be in there running around, not laying. If she is, they'll kill the new queen when you put her in. 

With the syrup and pollen substitute she should be laying, as you saw with the package bees. But, a lot of things can and often do go wrong. The fact there are no cells makes me suspicious she may still be in there and quit laying for one reason or another. This time of year they should raise a cell.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## CWS

@rocky1 Need to buy a smoker. What is the one you would recommend. Bees are doing a lot better. Bringing in a lot of nectar.


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## rocky1

Large Dadant bee smoker. Little ones burn out to quick. Don't fall for the rubber bellows sales pitches, they don't work worth a damn. Mann Lake bellows we've never had much luck with. Heat shield is nice if smoking a lot of bees, maybe not necessary in your case, but for $2 extra it's worth it.

However yes, by all means, you do need a smoker. Bees stay calmer, easier on the bee keeper, easier on the bees.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## CWS

rocky1 said:


> Large Dadant bee smoker. Little ones burn out to quick. Don't fall for the rubber bellows sales pitches, they don't work worth a damn. Mann Lake bellows we've never had much luck with. Heat shield is nice if smoking a lot of bees, maybe not necessary in your case, but for $2 extra it's worth it.
> 
> However yes, by all means, you do need a smoker. Bees stay calmer, easier on the bee keeper, easier on the bees.


thanks I have a smoker and in doesn't hold much starter fuel. looks like you guys are getting some very hot weather. we have had 90's the last 4 days.


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## CWS

@rocky1 Update on the bees hive. things are not going very well in the bees yard. It is getting late and the bees in both hives have no capped honey. I have a lot of brood and a lot of bees but no capped honey. Been feeding some syrup. There is some nectar in the cells but none capped. Goldenrod and other fall plants are blooming so they may start bringing more nectar. They are bringing in pollen.


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## gman2431

CWS said:


> @rocky1 Update on the bees hive. things are not going very well in the bees yard. It is getting late and the bees in both hives have no capped honey. I have a lot of brood and a lot of bees but no capped honey. Been feeding some syrup. There is some nectar in the cells but none capped. Goldenrod and other fall plants are blooming so they may start bringing more nectar. They are bringing in pollen.



Ours are just starting to cap the cells.


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## CWS

Thanks for the information. Both of my hives were new this year and so am I.


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## gman2431

CWS said:


> Thanks for the information. Both of my hives were new this year and so am I.



I don't know nothing but what mama bee says... I don't out there alot, but I asked her and she said just some corners are starting. Since I'm more north than you it sounds logical why yours aren't but we will have to wait for the expert to chime in!


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## rocky1

Not familiar with the area or what might be blooming Curt, but if they look light I'd continue to feed a little syrup along and along to put weight on them. If they're brooded up, they'll feed up a lot of honey and pollen. And as long as you have something blooming they'll likely continue to maintain the population a little longer. I would think you should see them start to slow down a little in the coming month, as days start getting shorter and temperatures start to cool a little. They may find a little excess to store as the brood cycle backs off, and fill your supers out, but as long as you aren't looking to harvest honey this year, the feed isn't going to hurt them. 

When you start with foundation, it takes a great deal of honey to produce the wax to draw your combs, dependent upon which source you look at, they'll cite anything from 5 to 8 lbs. of honey per pound of wax drawn. Realistically, you could probably figure a pound or more of wax per comb you've drawn, and you're pushing a LOT of brood to build populations up from where you started with them. Especially on the package! It's not that they haven't made anything, they've made a bunch, but it's gone into building the hive. 

North Dakota production typically starts falling off around the middle of August, toward the end of August you'll start to see populations backing down. Dependent upon the year, they may go broodless as early as mid-October. This year, was iffy from what the guys have said, weather wasn't cooperative, lot of cool rainy weather, and they've already started stripping the bees up there. Had a load or two out of Oregon or Idaho, that didn't do good at all, and those have already been shipped home. 2 loads out of Washington supposed to go back this coming week I believe.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## CWS

Thanks! Our goldenrod blossomed last week. Local beekeepers say a lot of nectar comes during goldenrod bloom. I guess I will see.

Reactions: Like 1


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## rocky1

Soy beans are also late crop up there, friend of ours goes up there and says he usually makes a decent crop of honey on the soybeans as well.

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## CWS

rocky1 said:


> Soy beans are also late crop up there, friend of ours goes up there and says he usually makes a decent crop of honey on the soybeans as well.


Stay away from the hurricane my friend.


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## rocky1

Well so far they aren't sure where it's going after Puerto Rico. Hurricane track is all over the place, most of all over the place, says Lee and maybe all the guys from Merritt Island south are going to see this one way down there on the south end of the state. Lou might get to see it, but it'll be blown out before it gets to him. Up here on the north end of the state, there are only 2 out of about 20 forecast tracks that make it up here. 

From what they're saying thus far, it should weaken over Puerto Rico and Cuba, be downgraded to tropical storm, if not all the way to tropical depression. Slim chance it may build back up, but they don't think so. Problem is, it's supposed to park over the central part of the state, where some places are already wet, and dump in excess of 8" of rain. 

Of course Michael was coming ashore as a category 1 maybe category 2 last year, until about 24 hours before it hit. Then it stalled, and rather than fall apart as projected, it picked up steam.


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## Lou Currier

@rocky1 my how things changed....Florida east coast needs to batten down the hatches...especially mid state


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## rocky1

Yeah, no doubt... Now looking category 2 - making landfall late Sunday/early Monday with sustained winds of 100 mph, somewhere Fort Pierce to Jacksonville, dependent upon whether they use the Euro or GFS model. The two models are fairly tight for next 48 hours. beyond that they open up and spread on Saturday's projected track.


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## rocky1

Bumped up to category 3 by landfall, tracking middle of the state, then coming my way now, according to local weather here. What they saying down there Lou?


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## CWS

Good morning @rocky1 How do you prepare your bees for this kind of weather? Hope the storm weakens before it hits Florida.


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## rocky1

Not a lot you can do for them. Put a big rock on the lid. 

Typically they're stuck together good enough that nothing blows away, unless they're dead anyhow. They aren't tall enough to bee prone to a lot of wind damage, so that part isn't a big worry. Flooding is more an issue, and that you just honestly don't expect. Have had it happen several times over the years. If they don't wash away and they have any holes where they can get air, and the water doesn't get deeper than the queen excluder, drowning the queen, they usually survive it. Have holes drilled in all our lids to tip feed jars up on them, and we've had to wade in a time or two and pop jar lids in the lid, but most of them made it.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Lou Currier

@rocky1 locally they’re saying you’re screwed


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## rocky1

Well you said y'all needed some more rain down there didn't you?


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## Lou Currier

@rocky1 just like a female, Dorian is being fickle and it now looks like she wants to visit @Spinartist first

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## CWS

Lou Currier said:


> @rocky1 just like a female, Dorian is being fickle and it now looks like she wants to visit @Spinartist first


I just hope it doesn't Maralargo.

Reactions: Funny 1


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