# Will the Stupidity Ever End?!



## rocky1

> *Whacked with a 4x4: Menards, Home Depot face lawsuits over descriptions of lumber size*
> 
> Rick Romell  , Milwaukee Journal Sentinel Published 10:03 a.m. ET June 21, 2017 | Updated 5 hours ago
> 
> Two Home improvement stores are accused of deceiving the buyers of four-by-four boards. The suits, each seeking over $5 million claim the retailers received significant profits from its false and misleading marketing. Buzz60
> 
> Menards and Home Depot stand accused of deceiving the lumber-buying public, specifically, buyers of 4x4 boards, the big brother to the ubiquitous 2x4.
> 
> The alleged deception: The retailers market and sell the hefty lumber as 4x4s without specifying that the boards actually measure 3½ inches by 3½ inches.
> 
> The lawsuits against the retailers, would-be class actions, were filed within five days of each other in federal court for the Northern District of Illinois. Attorneys from the same Chicago law firm represent the plaintiffs in both cases. Each suit seeks more than $5 million.
> 
> “Defendant has received significant profits from its false marketing and sale of its dimensional lumber products,” the action against Menards contends.
> 
> “Defendant’s representations as to the dimension of these products were false and misleading,” the suit against Home Depot alleges.
> 
> The retailers say the allegations are bogus. It is common knowledge and longstanding industry practice, they say, that names such as 2x4 or 4x4 do not describe the width and thickness of those pieces of lumber.
> 
> Rather, the retailers say, those are “nominal” designations accepted in government-approved industry standards, which also specify actual minimum dimensions — 1½ inches by 3½ inches for a 2x4, for example, and 3½ inches by 3½ inches for a 4x4.
> 
> “Anybody who’s in the trades or construction knows that,” said Tim Stich, a carpentry instructor at Milwaukee Area Technical College.
> 
> True enough, said Yevgeniy (Eugene) Turin of McGuire Law, the firm that represents the plaintiffs in both cases.
> 
> However, Turin and his clients dispute that the differences between nominal descriptions and actual dimensions are common knowledge.
> 
> “It’s difficult to say that for a reasonable consumer, when they walk into a store and they see a label that says 4x4, that that’s simply — quote unquote — a trade name,” Turin said in an interview.
> 
> Turin said his clients don’t argue that the retailers’ 4x4s (and, in the Menards case, a 1x6 board as well) are not the correct size under the standards published by the U.S. Department of Commerce. The product labels, however, should disclose that those are “nominal” designations and not actual sizes, Turin said.
> 
> With some of Menards’ lumber products, both the nominal and actual size are shown, a document Turin filed in the case against Menards says. But the lumber in question is labeled only with a nominal size — 4x4 - 10’, for example — that consists of numbers “arranged in a way to represent the dimensions of the products,” the document says. That leaves the “average consumer” to conclude that the pieces measure 4 inches by 4 inches, Turin said.
> 
> Some Menards customers aren’t buying it.
> 
> “They haven’t measured 4 inches by 4 inches since the ‘50s,” Scott Sunila said after loading purchases from the Germantown store into the bed of his pickup.
> 
> 
> “My God, that’s crazy,” the 60-year-old bulldozer operator said of the lawsuits. “Let me on the jury. They ain’t winning. And they’re gonna pay me extra for my time.”
> 
> But an unscientific survey of 18 Menards shoppers found that about a third were unaware that “4x4” doesn’t represent actual dimensions of that piece of lumber.
> 
> Neither Angela nor Pete Silva, a Menomonee Falls couple shopping the Germantown store as they plan a garage workshop, knew.
> 
> “I just assumed that it would be the same,” Angela, a funeral director, said. “But then again, we just started building things.”
> 
> Stich, the MATC carpentry teacher, also said the average homeowner might not know about such distinctions between lumber names and dimensions. And Turin said comments on the Home Depot website show that “there are actual customers being confused.”
> 
> Plaintiffs in the lawsuits who bought 4x4s got about 23% less lumber than “advertised and represented” by both retailers, the complaints allege. They say the practices of Menards and Home Depot “cause substantial injury to consumers.”
> 
> Both retailers dispute that.
> 
> “Plaintiffs received exactly what they were supposed to receive — lumber that complies with applicable standards,” a court document filed by Menards contends.
> 
> A Menards spokesman declined to speak about the case. A Home Depot spokesman said only that the firm disagrees with the claims.
> 
> The cases name three plaintiffs — two against Menards and one against Home Depot.
> 
> The Menards plaintiffs bought their lumber at stores in Gurnee and Fox Lake, Ill., in November. The Home Depot plaintiff bought his lumber at a store in Palatine, Ill., in December.
> 
> As Turin described it, all three men wanted the lumber for home-improvement projects, got home and measured the pieces, felt they had been deceived and then turned to the law firm.
> 
> Asked whether it was coincidence that three different men found the same sort of issue with lumber first at Menards and then at Home Depot, and then all decided to go to McGuire Law, Turin said he couldn’t comment.
> 
> “It’s kind of attorney-client privilege in terms of how the clients were retained, and the circumstances of our retainer of them,” he said. “They did freely come to us.”
> 
> http://www.indystar.com/story/money...uits-over-descriptions-lumber-size/405300001/

Reactions: Agree 8


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## Lou Currier

Not as long as there are lawyers!

Reactions: Agree 7


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## rocky1

Hopefully they'll find a judge who's worked with wood since 1960 something, or maybe even one as old as @Mike1950 who can remember when they used to really be full dimension, who will order them all to go to the local tattoo parlor and have "STUPID" tattooed across their foreheads! Right after finding Home Depot and Menards guilty, and awarding the plaintiffs the sum of $1 to be divided equally amongst all a party to the class action suit, after the attorney's take their fees.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 7


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## Mike1950

rocky1 said:


> Hopefully they'll find a judge who's worked with wood since 1960 something, or maybe even one as old as @Mike1950 who can remember when they used to really be full dimension, who will order them all to go to the local tattoo parlor and have "STUPID" tattooed across their foreheads! Right after finding Home Depot and Menards guilty, and awarding the plaintiffs the sum of $1 to be divided equally amongst all a party to the class action suit, after the attorney's take their fees.



Actually when i ran planer at the mill it was explained to me that rough lumber was 2 x 4's when they planed it it became 1.5 x 3.5 and for the most part it is true. lawyers should have to pay others sides court costs- otherwise you and I foot the bill so the scumbag lawyer leechs get to Vacation in Monaco. GRRRR

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 6


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## rocky1

I have over the years, encountered a few old houses where lumber was full dimension, and finished, but they were OLDDDDD houses!

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Schroedc

Our house is full dimension lumber but it was built in 1916.

Reactions: Like 1 | Way Cool 1


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## ripjack13

Wow.....this is one of the dumbest lawsuits I have ever read....


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## Tclem

Have built several houses with true dimension rough cut lumber back in my early 20's. Always would be a big fancy country club home.


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## Sidecar

Can we add a little circus background music while reading the suit ...... @ripjack13 your handy at this technology ,


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## sprucegum

rocky1 said:


> I have over the years, encountered a few old houses where lumber was full dimension, and finished, but they were OLDDDDD houses!


If you really want to muddy the remodeling waters wait till you run into a house built when the standard dimension for dressed lumber was on the 3/4" rather than half 2 x 4 was 1 3/4 x 3 3/4 then for a very short period they were on the 5/8. When I was just old enough to work with my dads crew (floor sweeper & lumber handler @ age 12) these changes were happening . when you started a project you had to be sure when you ordered lumber if it would be new standard or old. Many small local mills hung to the old standard for years. The whole change was of course to increase the yield from the logs, with todays sophisticated mills they are sawing the lumber just large enough that the planer will clean it up. I have ripped 2 x 6's to get a few odd size 2 x 4's now that I have a mill I can make what I need.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## sprucegum

Tclem said:


> Have built several houses with true dimension rough cut lumber back in my early 20's. Always would be a big fancy country club home.


Was that in the early twenties?

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Tony

Schroedc said:


> Our house is full dimension lumber but it was built in 1916.



What are the odds that you would end in a house that @Mike1950 built just before he retired?!?!?!?!

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Mike1950

Tony said:


> What are the odds that you would end in a house that @Mike1950 built just before he retired?!?!?!?!



GRRRR

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Tclem

sprucegum said:


> Was that in the early twenties?


This is tony. Not mike

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 4


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## Mike1950

Tclem said:


> This is tony. Not mike



.....

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ripjack13

Sidecar said:


> Can we add a little circus background music while reading the suit ...... @ripjack13 your handy at this technology ,



Here ya go....

Reactions: Funny 2


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## sprucegum

Tclem said:


> This is tony. Not mike


Got to give him a break once and a while.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Tclem

sprucegum said:


> Got to give him a break once and a while.


Why


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## Tclem

Mike1950 said:


> .....


I was talking about another mike but.....if the shoe fits. Got my wood loaded up yet ?


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## Woodworking Vet

Let's hope they don't check the price of a penny nail......

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 3


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## rocky1

That might be a good defense, tell them they sold them the 16 penny nails to nail them together for 2 1/2 cent each.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## CWS

Mike1950 said:


> .....


Is there a big difference?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sidecar

ripjack13 said:


> Here ya go....


Love it !
Oh this has many many use'n coming !!!!

Reactions: Like 1


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## SENC

Tony said:


> What are the odds that you would end in a house that @Mike1950 built just before he retired?!?!?!?!


Close but not quite. Pretty sure Mike's grandson built that house just before he retired.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## sprucegum

SENC said:


> Close but not quite. Pretty sure Mike's grandson built that house just before he retired.


I wish I had genes in my family like that. Or did they start really young.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## SENC

sprucegum said:


> I wish I had genes in my family like that. Or did they start really young.


Neither. He's just REALLY old.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## barry richardson

Retail version of ambulance chasers. ...

Reactions: Agree 4


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## lonewolf

Have any of you guys bought hardwoods where the practice of adding 7% to your tally for shrinkage or 17% if its also straight line ripped. This is an industry standard practice in the cabinet /millwork suppliers. AltHough I understand it to not be legal.


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## Alan Sweet

Lawyers... A waste of good organic material. and to think that the majority of elected officials are lawyers....

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Mike1950

Alan Sweet said:


> Lawyers... A waste of good organic material. and to think that the majority of elected officials are lawyers....



Very well said. You know what you have when you have when you have a dozen lawyers at the bottom of the ocean.... a start.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Mike1950

SENC said:


> Neither. He's just REALLY old.



GGGGGRRRRRTT

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mike1950

sprucegum said:


> I wish I had genes in my family like that. Or did they start really young.





SENC said:


> Neither. He's just REALLY old.



Just jealous of my longevity. I outlasted most everyone inc. My first dog.

Reactions: Great Post 2 | Funny 8


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