# Burnout Drednought



## dee (Aug 26, 2014)

I'm considering a new project. The keyword here is "considering". That being said, I need some input and advice. This might sound totally silly, but new projects don't start without the ideas from our wildest imaginations. 
What's this leading up to? First of all, I own an Ovation LLC047 guitar. Ovation guitars are somewhat unique in their design due to the way the back is made...it's curved or cupped. This makes the guitar very comfortable to hold and helps to drive the sound upward toward the neck. 
My idea is to (attempt to) create a guitar body similar to the Ovation by using a burnout technique with a solid part of a log. Like the ancients used to make canoes. I am familiar with the physics of sound waves on the ultrasonic level, being that I'm an old diagnostic ultrasound tech. However to arrive at an answer utilizing Poinselle's laws to the question of end result sound for this type of undertaking just isn't going to work. Hence, I seek the advice of the unlimited talent in this forum. 
Here's a few pictures to give those not familiar with the Ovation guitar.

 


Dee


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## Fret440 (Aug 26, 2014)

Here's another idea for going about this...* from the internet, not from me*...

Jacob

Reactions: Like 1 | EyeCandy! 3 | Way Cool 1


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## dee (Aug 26, 2014)

Wow, that's a beauty! And StrangeWood Guitars is your business? The idea of creating a guitar body using a burnout technique came to me while I was researching canoe's. I'm pretty tenacious when I get an idea. A burnout wouldn't require bending and might have a structural advantage. Being a solid piece would also allow for some nice shallow carving design. Once the inside was burned out, cleaned and sanded, a sound proof coating could be applied to better the reverberation (returning echo). then a top thin sheet jigsawed out and glued to the front. The inside could be custom shaped to direct the sound out. The whole body could be crafted with little more than simple hand tools, albeit somewhat time consuming. The thickness of the body would be a result of how deep the burning and chiseling went. It could be checked with a caliper device. 
Please do give feedback and your personal insight on sound reverberation.
Dee


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## dee (Aug 26, 2014)

I was wondering about an equation to describe the sound inside an acoustic guitar. So...I asked a friend of mine that happens to be a research chemist for Dow Chemical, and this is the answer I got.

"Figuring out this equation for one known shape would be doctoral thesis material. After that, it could probably be generalized for one variable such as the size of a round hole at one particular location. It would actually be easier to build a guitar and take measurements. Good luck with it. I'm sure Stradivarius didn't have any equations!"

Sorry I asked. lol. I was simply wondering if there was a way to figure out how this thing might sound before I made it? Ha!


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## Fret440 (Aug 26, 2014)

dee said:


> It would actually be easier to build a guitar and take measurements.



Even then, you could make two identical instruments, with all the wood coming from the same trees and all the measurements being exactly the same, and you would still end up with two instruments with differing sonic characteristics. Truth is, every piece of wood is different in its properties and has to be carefully worked for desired sonic traits. It's easier if a guitarist says they like certain sounds, then I can shape the wood to enhance those things.

Jacob

Reactions: Agree 1


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## dee (Aug 26, 2014)

That's a great answer Jacob, thank you. I'm going to give this a shot. I'm thinking oak, or pecan, but pine would be easier to work. And...if it doesn't sound too good, at least it'll be purdy to look at. 

"It's easier if a guitarist says they like certain sounds, then I can shape the wood to enhance those things". quote from Jacob

I prefer sounds more on the tremolo side, less baritone. Could you suggest some ways to enhance tremolo?


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## NYWoodturner (Aug 26, 2014)

Dee - This is avery thought provoking post and line of thought. Equations aren't my thing and I have never built a guitar. I have however played one and do own an Ovation. (The most neglected Ovation in the world) Just about every piece of music I listen too has a guitar in the lead and I have worked with a tad bit of wood...
All that being said I think the idea of a burnout has merit. My gut feeling is that it will produce a very mellow sound - (like what a flugelhorn is to a trumpet). As a woodworker, my knee-jerk reaction to pine is .
From a reverberation standpoint I think the harder and denser the wood is the crisper and brighter tone you will get. Pine would be at the extreme opposite end of that scale.
I hope you chase the idea demonically and keep us posted. I for one am _*SUBSCRIBED *_

Reactions: Like 1


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## dee (Aug 26, 2014)

That's great advice, and I'm overwhelmed by your encouragement. I agree with utilizing a dense wood. Do think oak would be a good choice? And I wonder if coating the inside with a carbon-graphite composite of some sort would give it extra punch, and decrease sound being absorbed in the wood...as you know, sound travels through different mediums at different speeds. High frequency=less penetration, low frequency=more penetration. But all sound frequencies regardless of their wavelength will at some point send a return echo if there is a gate set. Thus the gate being the coating inside the body. That's the Doppler effect in in a nutshell. The hollow space inside is also a consideration. Air chaotically scatters sound-waves, hence it's a terrible conductor of sound. What do you think about a coating inside? What do you think would make a good top?

There's a lot of pecan trees around where I live...do you think pecan would work? I think there's also some gum trees. 
And again thanks so much, I'm learning tons of stuff in this forum. You guys are awesome.

Peace, Dee


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## NYWoodturner (Aug 26, 2014)

I don't think Oak would be as good of a choice as many other woods. It has an open grain and would inherently have an open cellular structure and thus a sound deadening property. (In my mind LOL) Pecan is much denser. Mesquite is readily available in your area and would be a better choice I think. Footnote: My opinion is worth squat when it comes to guitar building. 
If you prove your theory out - and I think you will- I may have an Aussie burl cap that would make an excellent final exam...

Reactions: Like 1


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## dee (Aug 27, 2014)

You are actually helping me more than you might think on this project, even before I begin. If not for you, I might just be burning the midnight oil, or rather a piece of oak! So, oak is out. This project is going to require a dense tight grain. Come to think of it, the open cellular structure of oak could be a tuning nightmare. Your opinion is worth great value.


 A rather cheesey sketch, but it should give you some idea about my concept.


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## dee (Aug 29, 2014)

Changed my mind. I found a nice piece of oak. When I get the inside burned out, I'll spray in a carbon-graphite sound barrier coating to enhance the echo so it's not lost in the open grain.

Reactions: Like 1


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## duncsuss (Sep 2, 2014)

I don't want to squelch your creativity or be negative ... but ... 

When you've burned out the hole, the bottom will have fibers oriented pretty much the same as a guitar body made the regular way. The walls, however, will be made up of a combination of regular grain and "short grain". Think of the point where the neck attaches to the body, or the point where you'd put a peg for a strap. At those points, the grain will be running from the cavity to the outside world, maybe 1/4" tops -- very weak, unless you make the walls quite thick in these places.

Either way, I think this would impact the sound a lot.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## dee (Sep 2, 2014)

Duncan, that's a very good point. It's been raining a lot where I live so I haven't started the burn-out yet. And now I'm glad I haven't. What are your thoughts on cutting cross section, and leaving the part where the neck will connect thicker?
Thanks, Dee
Oh btw, the piece of oak I obtained was free.


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## duncsuss (Sep 2, 2014)

Quite honestly, I don't think it's possible to know how it will sound without trying it. Strength issues can be addressed by adding structural support (gluing in strips & blocks, for example) or by leaving the walls thicker in some places.

I'm just guessing ... don't take my word for it!

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## dee (Sep 17, 2014)

Here's the piece of oak that I got for free.


 
In fact, those pieces of cedar where also freebies. If you look closer at the oak, you'll see red line(s) on the oak. That's not the exact pattern, it just gives me an idea of where I need to work the oak down. This piece fits the specs for a dreadnought, CM, or auditorium guitar from the Breedlove dimension chart provided in the "Blanks" thread posted by R-13.
Peace, Dee


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## brandon (Sep 17, 2014)

Dee i think this is an awesome idea. I too am building a guitar using unconventional material (Popsicle sticks) I will sneak out to the shop and get pics when the wife leaves for work (I have been banned while recouping) lol


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## brandon (Sep 17, 2014)

Here are a couple pics of my project. The concept design and my progress

Reactions: Way Cool 3


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## barry richardson (Sep 17, 2014)

Like Duncan said, end grain wood at the top and bottom of the body will be weak, I don't think it will withstand the neck strain with tensioned strings. If you do a dulcimer type design where the neck and body are one piece it may work, but a dreadnought?

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## dee (Sep 17, 2014)

Great advice Barry. I'm considering many options on the recommendations provided by the good folks in this forum.

That is very cool Brandon!


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## Blueglass (Sep 17, 2014)

I love the idea of the burned out body. Oak is supposed to be a great tone wood. It's stability is why many luthiers don't really use it. I think I would burn it out but leave everything to thick and then dry for awhile. Or maybe do like arch top makers and use a drill bit with depth markers and hollow it roughly with a bunch of drill holes and then a chisel? Just suggestions.

Reactions: Like 1


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## dee (Sep 17, 2014)

Thanks Bluegrass, I think your drill bit and chisel idea is very good. Drilling would be faster too. Take out much of the inside by drilling, then chisel and maybe smooth it with an orbital sander? Do you know of another sander that might work well? 
The top or face will have a flat glued down...do you have a recommendation for the flat up side, would ash or birch work well? I'll leave extra for bracing the neck too. The neck seems like it could be difficult, so I think I'd be better off ordering a neck with inlayed frets. The tuner knobs will be ordered. And man there is a lot of cool looking knob hardware on the market. 
Cheers! Dee


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## scrimman (Sep 22, 2014)

I find making necks to be fun, but most, I think, don't. I'd make a neck for, say, a cigar box guitar first to see if it's up your alley to make a full scale neck. I think NY's idea of a Mesquite 'back' has a lot of merit too, for what it's worth. By the way; where in deep south Texas are you anyhow? I'm just a little east of Harlingen m'self.


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## dee (Sep 22, 2014)

I'm just north of Beaumont...we call this area deep south. I would consider Harlingen "the valley". You are however in the south, no doubt about it. As far as the lines of longitude are conerned, you are more south then I. 

I don't think me making a neck is the way to go...I am interested in your guitar neck though. If you can, shoot me a picture. I'll take a close up picture of what I'm doing on the body tomorrow and post it here for you to look at.

Cool, thanks,
Dee


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## dee (Sep 23, 2014)

The rough outline is just that...a rough outline, but gives me info as what I'm working with. There's going to be inlay cedar in the body. The inside will be sprayed with a few coats of carbon-graphite sound barrier to enhance the reverberation that would otherwise be attenuated in the open pores of the oak.


 

 
Dee


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## NYWoodturner (Sep 24, 2014)

Dee - Based on the first picture in the above post I thin I would flip the pattern and attempt to locate the hole over the pith. If you can do that you eliminate a TON of worries and increase stability.


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## dee (Sep 25, 2014)

I see your point. However, this is the back portion, the body. The sketch is for shaping purpose only. I was going to cut a diamond shape from the pith and angle the cut then slam in another type of wood creating sort of a star pattern, then sand the pattern smooth...laminating it into the back. The face or top of the guitar I suppose will be a 1/4" sheet of ash or birch with the hole cut into it. The inside is going to have a coat of carbon-graphite sprayed into it. I've got a chemist friend of mine that works for DOW Chemical who's made some recommendations for the coating. Thus, I don't really have to worry about reverberation or attenuation from the oak itself. The coating will stop the sound wave and send it back through the hole. 
I'm sorry Mr. Scott if I wasn't informative enough. Does this make more sense? 

I'm will post some pictures tomorrow and show you how her lower bout is coming along. I am out of town now.
Peace, Dee


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## NYWoodturner (Sep 27, 2014)

Nope - It makes perfect sense


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## dee (Sep 27, 2014)

May I call you Scott? I wanted to show this to you. Either side could be the back. It's just going to depend on what the other side looks like once I chainsaw it lose. Who know's the other side might be better. You see I've been using a chisel to shape the body, kinda the long way of doing it. But I really like to get a feel for the wood. Sure I could cut it away with the sawzall or another power tool, but sometimes I prefer to see if I can do something just for the sake of it. 
I used to shape surfboards growing up...so this brings back some memories. 


 
I like sitting outside chipping away at that block of oak and listening to music as I work. It gives me a break from the whole toothpick thing. If the other side looks better, I'll be digging out the side you're looking at here. 
Peace, Dee


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## barefoot (Aug 30, 2018)

Dee,
I'm a luthier and VERY interested in your radical build. Did you ever finish this guitar? Just FYI, you're treading in the same territory I build in. Here's a couple of pix of my flagship A/E thin-line classical that is carved out of a single block (bck & sides) and then I add a top, similar to what you were considering at one point. I'll show the process.

This is level one of the drilling. I clear the stubs between the drillings with a chisel and then do the second drilling and clear. 

 



This is the finished guitar. 






I do hate that there's so much waste in this method.

Reactions: Way Cool 2


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## Tony (Aug 31, 2018)

barefoot said:


> Dee,
> I'm a luthier and VERY interested in your radical build. Did you ever finish this guitar? Just FYI, you're treading in the same territory I build in. Here's a couple of pix of my flagship A/E thin-line classical that is carved out of a single block (bck & sides) and then I add a top, similar to what you were considering at one point. I'll show the process.
> 
> This is level one of the drilling. I clear the stubs between the drillings with a chisel and then do the second drilling and clear. View attachment 152312
> ...



That is gorgeous!!! I don't know about Dee, hasn't been on since Sept. 2014.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## ripjack13 (Sep 1, 2018)

barefoot said:


> Dee,
> I'm a luthier and VERY interested in your radical build. Did you ever finish this guitar? Just FYI, you're treading in the same territory I build in. Here's a couple of pix of my flagship A/E thin-line classical that is carved out of a single block (bck & sides) and then I add a top, similar to what you were considering at one point. I'll show the process.
> 
> This is level one of the drilling. I clear the stubs between the drillings with a chisel and then do the second drilling and clear. View attachment 152312
> ...




Carla, what did you use as a finish? That looks crazy beautiful!!


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## barefoot (Sep 2, 2018)

Good eye, Marc! The whole guitar is done in French polish. I don't recommend it as a top coat for art work such as I did on the back. It's way more beautiful in person, but was a royal pain to do. I layered the picture of the universe with lots of subtle translucent colors so that when the French polish was applied it obscured parts of the underlaying picture and gave it an even deeper 3-D effect than you always get with FP. Sold it way too cheaply but it was a commission so I had quoted a price that didn't include the artwork, an addition that I hadn't planned from the get-go and took almost a year to do.


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