# Mystery Ebony



## Byron Barker (Mar 1, 2018)

I live in Taiwan and was at a lumber yard up in Taipei looking for some bow wood when I ran across this wood shown below. The terrible problem with Taiwan and China and Chinese in general is that it is a non-phonetic language and like all languages it uses many words for the same thing depending on which region you are in. So I saw a massive log of the same stuff in the picture below and was stunned by it thinking it was somehow impregnated with the color. According to the guy, no, it is just a super rare type of ebony. The word for ebony in Chinese covers a list of trees, many of which are not even ebony as we would categorize it. So, I was left guessing what in the hell this is. I do think it is in the Ebony family, but not sure what species it would be. Looks similar to Lignum Vitae, but most certainly isn't judging by the size of tree this guy had at his factory. Any ideas?

Reactions: Like 4 | EyeCandy! 4 | Way Cool 1


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## Tony (Mar 2, 2018)

@phinds


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## Tony (Mar 2, 2018)

Byron, I moved this here where others can respond. Tony


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## DKMD (Mar 2, 2018)

Looks like bulnesia genus based on the green color. Verawood or Argentine lignum. Smell-o-vision would help me...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## phinds (Mar 2, 2018)

DKMD said:


> Looks like bulnesia genus based on the green color. Verawood or Argentine lignum. Smell-o-vision would help me...


Yep. Verawood for sure


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## Steve Smith (Mar 2, 2018)

Looks like lignum vitae to me as well.


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## phinds (Mar 2, 2018)

Steve Smith said:


> Looks like lignum vitae to me as well.


No. Verawood. Lignum vitae is more red. Check out the pics on my site of each.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Steve Smith (Mar 2, 2018)

Huh. I assumed they were different names for the same species. I know better now.


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## Byron Barker (Mar 4, 2018)

Verawood it probably is I guess! Thanks for the help.


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## Digginestdog (Mar 10, 2018)

Byron, I think you were on the right track with the ebonies. Any chance you can get back and ask the sawyer whether it's domestic or not? I would just lean toward a species from Southeast Asia since there is an abundance of beautiful woods in Taiwan's backyard. Right now I can think of 4 woods from Southeast Asia that have some green in them, and I have a block that was sold to me by a reputable dealer as East Indian Rosewood which is nearly all green. I've spent a considerable amount of time in Thailand and interested in the exotic woods of SE Asia and very much interested in learning more about the wood you found. You could even have something unique that never makes it out of the country. I also have some Thai friends familiar with woods that might be able to help. Send me an email if you are interested.


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## phinds (Mar 10, 2018)

Digginestdog said:


> Byron, I think you were on the right track with the ebonies. Any chance you can get back and ask the sawyer whether it's domestic or not? I would just lean toward a species from Southeast Asia since there is an abundance of beautiful woods in Taiwan's backyard. Right now I can think of 4 woods from Southeast Asia that have some green in them, and I have a block that was sold to me by a reputable dealer as East Indian Rosewood which is nearly all green. I've spent a considerable amount of time in Thailand and interested in the exotic woods of SE Asia and very much interested in learning more about the wood you found. You could even have something unique that never makes it out of the country. I also have some Thai friends familiar with woods that might be able to help. Send me an email if you are interested.


This wood has interlocked grain. Diospyros species do not have interlocked grain. This is verawood. It is not an ebony.


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## Digginestdog (Mar 10, 2018)

Okay, there are still other species more likely than Verawood, and some we have never heard of. If Byron has doubts like me he can contact me if that's okay with the rules


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## phinds (Mar 10, 2018)

Digginestdog said:


> Okay, there are still other species more likely than Verawood, and some we have never heard of. If Byron has doubts like me he can contact me if that's okay with the rules


Absolutely. If you find that it's something else, I'll be very interested. My interest is not in being right just for the sake of being right, it's in getting the ID correct.

I do find it puzzling however that you feel there are other species more likely than verawood. This wood has exactly the characteristics of verawood and looks EXACTLY like several of the verawood pics on my site (pieces that I have had in my hands). What woods do you suggest?


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## Byron Barker (Mar 10, 2018)

I noticed too after looking through pictures that both suggestions of vera wood and palo santo might be right. I actually saw several images of older logs of palo santo that looked identical to the picture I had. I guess the palo santo has some sort of a smell and I never bothered to smell the wood. I would like to go back to the factory at some point, but it is out of the way in Taipei...which is like 4 hours from me. Next time I am up there I want to go back and scope it out some more. Thanks for the advice.


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## Byron Barker (Mar 10, 2018)

Next thing for me is finding out if it will make a bow or not!


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## Byron Barker (Mar 10, 2018)

Digginestdog said:


> Byron, I think you were on the right track with the ebonies. Any chance you can get back and ask the sawyer whether it's domestic or not? I would just lean toward a species from Southeast Asia since there is an abundance of beautiful woods in Taiwan's backyard. Right now I can think of 4 woods from Southeast Asia that have some green in them, and I have a block that was sold to me by a reputable dealer as East Indian Rosewood which is nearly all green. I've spent a considerable amount of time in Thailand and interested in the exotic woods of SE Asia and very much interested in learning more about the wood you found. You could even have something unique that never makes it out of the country. I also have some Thai friends familiar with woods that might be able to help. Send me an email if you are interested.


 There are quite a few woods in Taiwan that are unique to the island as well. There are 2 species of oak that only exist within Taroko National Park. There are several species of ebony (again, that is a term I am shaky about using due to the Chinese) on the island as well as a unique species of Yew, incense cedar, Taiwanese juniper, "cow camphore" (Cinnamomum kanehirae) and of course Hinoki. I'm sure there is a lot more I don't know about. You can take a look at the thread I just posted on the logging forum about a 200 year old piece of Jessamine wood (murraya panniculata) I just hauled out of a canyon slot two weeks ago. That is some crazy stuff. If you want some samples of wood of some sort, keep in touch. I will help you out. I have connections with loads of woodworkers here although most of them are just using Hinoki at the moment since it has a famous reputation.


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## phinds (Mar 10, 2018)

Byron Barker said:


> I noticed too after looking through pictures that both suggestions of vera wood and palo santo might be right. I actually saw several images of older logs of palo santo that looked identical to the picture I had.


That's probably because "palo santo" IS verawood (some of the time ... that name is actually used for over 40 species from a couple of dozen different genera)


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## Byron Barker (Mar 11, 2018)

No crap?! Learn something new everyday. Well that REALLY narrows it down then!


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## Digginestdog (Mar 11, 2018)

phinds said:


> Absolutely. If you find that it's something else, I'll be very interested. My interest is not in being right just for the sake of being right, it's in getting the ID correct.
> 
> I do find it puzzling however that you feel there are other species more likely than verawood. This wood has exactly the characteristics of verawood and looks EXACTLY like several of the verawood pics on my site (pieces that I have had in my hands). What woods do you suggest?



Yes, and I find it puzzling in the opposite way given there are so many other possibilities. There are several unanswered questions that would be very helpful. As Byron mentioned he didn't smell the wood. Isn't that correct? or did I miss that? When a fresh cut was made, what color was the wood? Because, isn't Verawood lighter in color with a fresh cut and turns dark with exposure to light? Wasn't Byron's pic of a dark fresh cut? Or did I assume that? Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't rule out Verawood either, it's just not at the top of my list yet. And, I don't dispute the similarities to Verawood, as mine looks similar to Byron's pic. Another question I have is didn't Byron describe this as a tree? So, I would want a more clear description. If he used that description because it had limbs still attached to the trunk, wouldn't it indicate that it was harvested locally? No one would ship a tree that far, right, or would they? Now, that I've had more time to think about it, I'm not sure the sawyer would be willing to offer more information given that poaching is so rampant in Southeast Asia. Another question is how much did Byron pay for the piece he got? Isn't Verawood moderately expensive especially after shipping so far? The price might not be that helpful, though, since the piece wasn't sliced up. I think Byron would need to have a feel for that. One of my top suggestions was Dalbergia cochinchinensis, but after re-reading Bryon's description of the tree, I'm leaning less toward that. I'll need to re-view some of it's characteristics. Here are a few other suggestions: Dalbergia latifolia, Balanocarpus spp., Artocarpus spp,. Astronium spp. The only Astronium we ever hear about is Goncalo alves, but there are several species that grow in Asia, and, at least one species has a green tint to it. And, my short list doesn't include the hundreds, if not thousands of species that we are not familiar with, and, for that reason, I still wonder what the heck Verwood is doing so far from home when there are so many cheaper options close to Taiwan? Well, that's just my opinion. If you think I'm way off-base here, I won't say any more about it. I don't need to be right either.


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## phinds (Mar 11, 2018)

I agree that tree info would give a more positive ID (I don't know anything about trees but others do). I can't smell so don't use that marker but again, others do and that would be good info. 

One point of clarifiction --- do you disagree w/ me that this wood shows clears signs of interlocked grain?


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## Digginestdog (Mar 11, 2018)

Hi Paul, no I don't disagree with you on that. I accepted your expertise, even though I had to cross off two ebonies from my list, haha.


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## phinds (Mar 11, 2018)

Digginestdog said:


> Hi Paul, no I don't disagree with you on that. I accepted your expertise, even though I had to cross off two ebonies from my list, haha.


Just wanted to check, since you list Dalbergia latifolia as a possibility and that does not have interlocked grain.

EDIT: later note: that is not a correct statement. See my post below


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## Digginestdog (Mar 11, 2018)

I thought that's why you were asking, but my two sources, one of which is USDA, say it does have narrowly interlocked grain.


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## phinds (Mar 11, 2018)

Digginestdog said:


> I thought that's why you were asking, but my two sources, one of which is USDA, say it does have narrowly interlocked grain.


Son of a gun. I have not heard that before. Thanks.

EDIT: It's always amazing to me how stupid I can be sometimes. My OWN "fact sheet" lists Dalbergia latifolia as having interlocked grain. Somehow I had gotten it into my head that no Dalbergias every had interlocked grain. Possibly because they are not among the few woods where signs of interlocked grain show clearly in the end grain they way they do it, for example, verawood.


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## Digginestdog (Mar 11, 2018)

You're welcome, and thank you also, as this has been a great learning experience for me. I spent quite a bit of time searching for a Bulnesia that might be growing in SE Asia, but no luck. I gather from what your saying is that most species in a given genus will follow similar interlocking grain patterns? Is that a safe presumption?


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## phinds (Mar 11, 2018)

Digginestdog said:


> You're welcome, and thank you also, as this has been a great learning experience for me. I spent quite a bit of time searching for a Bulnesia that might be growing in SE Asia, but no luck. I gather from what your saying is that most species in a given genus will follow similar interlocking grain patterns? Is that a safe presumption?


I don't know about that. I'd be cautious to make such an assumption. Closely related species, yes, but just being in the same genus doesn't always make for close relatives, anatomically speaking. BOTANICALLY speaking, they're close, but there are instances where botanically closely related species are wildly different in anatomical characteristics. See my page on buckthorn for an example

EDIT: Oh. Buckthorn isn't all that good an example after all since the genera are different. Statement still holds though, and the Dalbergias are a good example


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## Mr. Peet (Mar 11, 2018)

Byron Barker said:


> No crap?! Learn something new everyday. Well that REALLY narrows it down then!


@phinds @Digginestdog 

When Byron has first posted, it was in the recent finds. I sent him a PM stating I thought it was 'Palo Santo', _Bulnesia sarmientoi_. I assumed it was not true Lignum, based on color and availability. I went no further. My comments were not transferred when moved to the ID forum.

Of the many 'Palo Santo' woods, only a few resemble Lignum vitae, the remainder are called such based on incense burning, oils, and smells. I mentioned to Paul yesterday that interlocking in ebony can happen, but it is very seldom. 

Gerald, you ask why a South American wood should be found in Formosa. Taiwan is loaded with cented woods for religious, sexual and other reasons. Legitimate too, such as wooden bearing making. And yes, they are there as ornamental trees, but the "bolt" section Byron showed would have more likely been imported.

Your list, _Dalbergia cochinchinensis_, the color can be argued, but the level of interlocked grain dismisses it, as does the vessel arrangement in grain patterning. And like wise with _Dalbergia latifolia_. _Balanocarpus _spp. are often in the brown colors, lighter densities and straight grained. _Artocarpus _spp. the breadfruit group is similar to the genus _Balanocarpus. _Now the Asian _Astronium _spp. group has potential, however do they ever have interlocked graining that could match. With this genus, blacklight testing can be helpful.

Good thoughts Gerald, it will be interesting what Byron finds with his next visit to the wood dealer that has the questionable piece.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Byron Barker (Mar 11, 2018)

I did not buy this wood, this is simply a smaller of what I assumed to be the same wood. I did a Chinese search for green-hearted wood looking for more information and this wood came up from a company in China. It looked the same (or incredibly similar) to what I saw. The name they had listed for it was clearly a local name and wouldn't translate into anything , not did a search for it pull up any scientific names. It could be something different than what I saw at the factory, but I am quite sure that is it. The checking looked circular like in the picture as well. They had a full tree about 15ft long. They told me it was ebony, but they seemed very unsure of that and like I said, that name is very loosely used in Taiwan. They did not mention if it was local or not, but judging by the fact they had a lot of ebony and rosewood that clearly wasn't local, it may have been an import. Sounds like I need to go back to the factory and get pictures to end the debate. I'll get a good wiff of it too when I do. Thanks guys. Loads of interesting information by the way! I had no idea so many species of wood had greenish heartwood.


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