# A Little Electrical Help, Please



## Tom Smart (Feb 25, 2022)

I know little to nothing about electricity. Flip a switch and the lights go on. 

I want to replace a hallway ceiling light. Been in this house 25 years and we still have builder grade lights there. I do know enough to cut off the power at the fuse box before messing with wires. We actually have 2 fuse boxes because one is a cut over to the circuits on our standby generator. In preparation for replacing the light I flipped every switch in both boxes and the ceiling light never went off. The only time I got it to go off was by using the master switch, cutting all power. 

Being the uneducated electrician I am, this just doesn't seem correct. Does this mean it is somehow hard wired? Should not every wire be routed through a fuse? Is this a safety issue I might need a real electrician to look into?

My replacement lighting is sitting on the floor, waiting for me to do something dumb.


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## woodtickgreg (Feb 25, 2022)

I'm thinking there has got to be another breaker or fuse box somewhere.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## eaglea1 (Feb 25, 2022)

Does this mean it is somehow hard wired? Should not every wire be routed through a fuse? Is this a safety issue I might need a real electrician to look into?
Yes, on all accounts. This may be one of those old fashioned electrical panels that had what we called a split buss, and the circuit may be wired directly to the split buss section bypassing all overload protections. I hated working on those damn things and always gave the customer a good deal just to replace them. I once had a customer that actually wired their kitchen small appliance circuits into one of those split busses and to top it off, used SOJ electrical cord wire that you would use for a lamp... geez

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 1


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## 2feathers Creative Making (Feb 25, 2022)

To double check the circuit thing, start at the top and turn off the breakers or remove the fuses . Do not reset the breaker or fully rethread the fuse until the whole set is fully checked out. The house will go dark and hopefully take the hall light with it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## 2feathers Creative Making (Feb 25, 2022)

eaglea1 said:


> Does this mean it is somehow hard wired? Should not every wire be routed through a fuse? Is this a safety issue I might need a real electrician to look into?
> Yes, on all accounts. This may be one of those old fashioned electrical panels that had what we called a split buss, and the circuit may be wired directly to the split buss section bypassing all overload protections. I hated working on those damn things and always gave the customer a good deal just to replace them. I once had a customer that actually wired their kitchen small appliance circuits into one of those split busses and to top it off, used SOJ electrical cord wire that you would use for a lamp... geez


Wow! You found the nearest stuff! Ever gotten to mess with knob and tube wiring yet? Had 3 houses in a row that had that. Those are fun too.


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## Tom Smart (Feb 25, 2022)

woodtickgreg said:


> I'm thinking there has got to be another breaker or fuse box somewhere.


There’s not another box and I went through every circuit at least 3 times in both the primary box and the generator box. I even went through all of the “blank” spaces on the main box where those circuits have been moved to the generator.


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## Tom Smart (Feb 25, 2022)

2feathers Creative Making said:


> To double check the circuit thing, start at the top and turn off the breakers or remove the fuses . Do not reset the breaker or fully rethread the fuse until the whole set is fully checked out. The house will go dark and hopefully take the hall light with it.


OK, I’ll try it that way. I flipped every fuse but then cut it back on before going to the next one.


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## 2feathers Creative Making (Feb 25, 2022)

If you can't find anything else, use the main fuse or breakers. Do the project in the daytime to have working light. And save money up to have an electrician come by to see you if that is the way it ends up!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tom Smart (Feb 25, 2022)

2feathers Creative Making said:


> If you can't find anything else, use the main fuse or breakers. Do the project in the daytime to have working light. And save money up to have an electrician come by to see you if that is the way it ends up!


Thanks, Frank.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TMAC (Feb 25, 2022)

If the light is on a switch that should kill the power going to the light. Cut the switch off and test the voltage at the light with a volt meter. Sometimes people wire the light and the switch breaks the neutral instead of the hot leg like it should be but the volt meter will verify that the circuit is truly dead at the light.

Reactions: Like 1


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## 2feathers Creative Making (Feb 25, 2022)

Most often true. Noncontact testers are very cheap. And help keep the fingers out of the way of that tingly stuff.


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## eaglea1 (Feb 25, 2022)

2feathers Creative Making said:


> Wow! You found the nearest stuff! Ever gotten to mess with knob and tube wiring yet? Had 3 houses in a row that had that. Those are fun too.


Yup, dealt with knob and tube many times. Had to use a neon light to test for the hot. Actually, I believe that knob and tube is still a legal way
to wire residential according to the NEC. At least it was when I was still working.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tom Smart (Feb 25, 2022)

TMAC said:


> If the light is on a switch that should kill the power going to the light. Cut the switch off and test the voltage at the light with a volt meter. Sometimes people wire the light and the switch breaks the neutral instead of the hot leg like it should be but the volt meter will verify that the circuit is truly dead at the light.


Voltmeter is not something currently in my toolbox. Haven't had a need for it at the lathe.


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## djg (Feb 25, 2022)

Is the light on all the time? How do you control it? Wall switch?


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## Tom Smart (Feb 25, 2022)

djg said:


> Is the light on all the time? How do you control it? Wall switch?


Wall switch.


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## djg (Feb 25, 2022)

I'm sorry, I missing something. Can't you just flip the light switch off and then change the light fixture? Is the black wire still hot when the switch is off? I wouldn't spend too much time and certainly no money finding how the switch is powered. Something weird must be going on there. Get one of these:


https://www.tequipment.net/Triplett/ET050/High-Voltage-Detectors/Indicators/?Source=googleshopping&gclid=Cj0KCQiAmeKQBhDvARIsAHJ7mF7EVpr-hBMgB9SDJElrpbx47G-sSCswh0_jegGK28lMcUFqy-xNWWcaAq1ZEALw_wcB



They're cheap and available at big box stores.


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## Eric Rorabaugh (Feb 25, 2022)

I know I should but I've changed many a light and plugs without flipping the breaker. I hate electricity...I can't see it and it's faster than me so you'd think I'd shut the juice off. 
 
PSA---DON'T DO WHAT THIS IDIOT HAS DONE

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Tom Smart (Feb 25, 2022)

djg said:


> Can't you just flip the light switch off and then change the light fixture? Is the black wire still hot when the switch is off?


I have no idea, Dan, that’s why I’ve come to the collective brain power of this experienced, yet opinionated, group.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Arn213 (Feb 25, 2022)

eaglea1 said:


> Yup, dealt with knob and tube many times. Had to use a neon light to test for the hot. Actually, I believe that knob and tube is still a legal way
> to wire residential according to the NEC. At least it was when I was still working.


Not permitted in NYC as of 2011 under Article 394, Section II. I wouldn’t want it in my house if it was still legal.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## 2feathers Creative Making (Feb 25, 2022)

Okay, Tom, does your house have breakers? If so, the fastest completely safe way is the main breaker. The second fastest with mostly safe results is to turn the switch off. The slowest is finding the breaker that controls that light but also completely safe.
The noncontact tester is what I believe the link was for. Is the age of the house known?
Sometimes the generator rework can cause numerous unique situations.


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## Tom Smart (Feb 25, 2022)

2feathers Creative Making said:


> Okay, Tom, does your house have breakers? If so, the fastest completely safe way is the main breaker. The second fastest with mostly safe results is to turn the switch off. The slowest is finding the breaker that controls that light but also completely safe.
> The noncontact tester is what I believe the link was for. Is the age of the house known?
> Sometimes the generator rework can cause numerous unique situations.


Breakers, yes. We had this built in ‘95. Been here ever since. First place we could actually plant something and see it grow after moving every 3 years.

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## Mike1950 (Feb 25, 2022)

Shut all the breakers off except the mains. If light does not go out call electrician or ghostbusters.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Tom Smart (Feb 25, 2022)

Mike1950 said:


> Shut all the breakers off except the mains. If light does not go out call electrician or ghostbusters.


Tried that. That’s why I’m askin here. It didn’t go out.

What’s that number for Ghostbusters? Might be cheaper than an electrician.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## djg (Feb 25, 2022)

Tom Smart said:


> I have no idea, Dan, that’s why I’ve come to the collective brain power of this experienced, yet opinionated, group.


OK. I just wanted to make sure it's nothing I had missed. Turn off the switch and remove the mounting screws to drop the light fixture out of the junction box. Is the box metal or plastic? There should be three wires connected with wire nuts. A Copper (ground), a White (neutral), and a Black (power).

Can you check that? Use a shop light or wait until tomorrow.


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## Mike1950 (Feb 25, 2022)

Tom Smart said:


> Tried that. That’s why I’m askin here. It didn’t go out.
> 
> What’s that number for Ghostbusters? Might be cheaper than an electrician.


If that does not work and no knowledge of electricity an electrician will be cheaper than a MD.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Mr. Peet (Feb 25, 2022)

Tom Smart said:


> Tried that. That’s why I’m askin here. It didn’t go out.
> 
> What’s that number for Ghostbusters? Might be cheaper than an electrician.


When you shut the breakers off, do one at a time and leave them off and proceed to the next breaker. When you turn each breaker back on before going to the next you could be back feeding. Having a 3 way switch in wrong or a few neutrals crossed can produce interesting results too. For $20, you could get a plug in polarity tester.

Are these Square D breakers?


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## Tom Smart (Feb 25, 2022)

Mr. Peet said:


> Are these Square D breakers?


What are Square D breakers, Mark?


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## 2feathers Creative Making (Feb 25, 2022)

Tom Smart said:


> What are Square D breakers, Mark?


Brand of breakers in the breaker box. A picture of the breaker box label would answer that.


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## Tom Smart (Feb 25, 2022)

OK, picture first thing tomorrow.


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## Tim Shettlesworth (Feb 25, 2022)

depending on the age of your house there is no telling what someone before you thought, was a good idea or no other way. That being said it is unlikely that it is actually hard-wired as that would require someone hooking it up to one of the main feeds while it was live, but again you never know what someone was thinking. I think you have missed something but the easiest thing to do is kill it at the switch and check for power at the light before you attempt to change it. If that doesn't work its flashlight and main breaker time but I would try to figure out what they did. It will make life easier in the future.


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## JerseyHighlander (Feb 25, 2022)

Tom Smart said:


> I know little to nothing about electricity. Flip a switch and the lights go on.
> 
> I want to replace a hallway ceiling light. Been in this house 25 years and we still have builder grade lights there. I do know enough to cut off the power at the fuse box before messing with wires. We actually have 2 fuse boxes because one is a cut over to the circuits on our standby generator. In preparation for replacing the light I flipped every switch in both boxes and the ceiling light never went off. The only time I got it to go off was by using the master switch, cutting all power.
> 
> ...


I haven't read the posts following yours yet so if I'm duplicating forgive me.

1) If your panel is older than 1985ish and the Manufacturer is Federal Pacific Electric or FPE, the breakers have orange tabs on the ends of the switches, stop flipping things, don't touch it and call an electrician immediately.
2) post a picture of your electrical panels, with the doors open of course, showing the switches and if any, the data plate/label.

edit.

Extreme fire hazard, don't mess with it at all.


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## Mike1950 (Feb 25, 2022)

Tim Shettlesworth said:


> depending on the age of your house there is no telling what someone before you thought, was a good idea or no other way. That being said it is unlikely that it is actually hard-wired as that would require someone hooking it up to one of the main feeds while it was live, but again you never know what someone was thinking. I think you have missed something but the easiest thing to do is kill it at the switch and check for power at the light before you attempt to change it. If that doesn't work its flashlight and main breaker time but I would try to figure out what they did. It will make life easier in the future.





JerseyHighlander said:


> I haven't read the posts following yours yet so if I'm duplicating forgive me.
> 
> 1) If your panel is older than 1985ish and the Manufacturer is Federal Pacific Electric or FPE, the breakers have orange tabs on the ends of the switches, stop flipping things, don't touch it and call an electrician immediately.
> 2) post a picture of your electrical panels, with the doors open of course, showing the switches anf if any the data olate/label.
> ...


1995 house- he had it built- obviously he has changed nothing... best advice @Tom Smart is an electrician...

Reactions: Like 1


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## JerseyHighlander (Feb 25, 2022)

Having read through the rest of the posts now, this sounds like a "keep your hands in your pockets, except to use the phone" situation. The FPE/Federal Pacific panel I posted above along with Zinsco panels were notorious for breakers not tripping even when severely overloaded. Flipping the switch to off didn't necessarily mean the mechanism inside actually did disconnect... Not impossible, but you shouldn't have one of those in a 1995 house. What you could have though is counterfeit breakers from china. Yet another gift from the Chinese and Wall Street... From roughly early 1990's to around 2010, there was a serious problem with counterfeit breakers. Looked just like the name brand you knew and loved, that was UL tested and met rigorous standards, but inside was essentially Fisher Price. The big orange box store sold LOTS of them. Not something to play around with.

Reactions: Thank You! 1 | Informative 1


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## Wildthings (Feb 25, 2022)

Sounds like it is on a 3-way switch and back feeding through a neutral that is hooked up wrong. Can you turn this light on from different switches like at either end of the hallway?


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## Arn213 (Feb 26, 2022)

Mike @Mike1950 would be the safest route I would personally take and having an electrician just to fully go through with a trace and check for all possible variables is the way to go. Potential harm to you and a fire hazard is sounding bells in my ears- it is just not worth it. There are just too many variables that everyone mentioned here what it could possibly be- could be anything like an interconnected somewhere, a bad breaker requiring a replacement (need a voltmeter), possibly they wired the outlet to the light fixture, possible wired the light switch to a switch activated electrical outlet……….

Do you have a set or access to any construction set of your house? There should be an lighting plan and an electrical plan to see how it was laid out.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## eaglea1 (Feb 26, 2022)

Now that I saw the breakers I want to mention that we had loads of problems with Fed. Pac. breakers. IF the circuit is
wired to a breaker, that breaker in itself could be bad. We had tons of faulty breakers from them.
Time to call an electrician, and this brings to mind a article that once appeared in the Sat. Night Post years ago
and I will post it in the joke forum as it's a long but funny read. My wife had it framed for me.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Tom Smart (Feb 26, 2022)

Thanks everyone for the help. Frank @2feathers Creative Making and Kyle @JerseyHighlander asked for pictures.

The original box was installed in ‘95 when the house was new.





The generator cut over box was installed in around ‘09.

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## Tom Smart (Feb 26, 2022)

Wildthings said:


> Sounds like it is on a 3-way switch and back feeding through a neutral that is hooked up wrong. Can you turn this light on from different switches like at either end of the hallway?


Yes, Barry, 2 switches.


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## Tom Smart (Feb 26, 2022)

Arn213 said:


> Do you have a set or access to any construction set of your house? There should be an lighting plan and an electrical plan to see how it was laid out.


Don't have any of the plans or drawing, Arn. 

Possible something was misrouted when the generator box was added.


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## Arn213 (Feb 26, 2022)

Tom Smart said:


> Don't have any of the plans or drawing, Arn.
> 
> Possible something was misrouted when the generator box was added.


You should be able to get a set of construction documents when your house was filed with the building department requiring the necessary permits. You have to know block and lot. Possibly, you might be able to view it online on your state building department page- it will also tell you C of O, permits filing, taxes, violations, etc..


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## Tom Smart (Feb 26, 2022)

Like most fuse boxes I've seen the labeling on the door rarely matches reality. Not sure having plans would be any help.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Arn213 (Feb 26, 2022)

The electrical plan and lighting/switching plan will give you a map of each location back to the electrical panel. We leave a set of these for our clients for future reference when they require service, modification and repairs.


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## 2feathers Creative Making (Feb 26, 2022)

The label (branding) part is what everyone is referring to for breaker type.


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## 2feathers Creative Making (Feb 26, 2022)

Arn213 said:


> The electrical plan and lighting/switching plan will give you a map of each location back to the electrical panel. We leave a set of these for our clients for future reference when there require service, modification and repairs.


That is nice of you folks. Here in the countryside, you are lucky to have the label filled out for a general effect if the house is older than about 1990. 
I try to do my part when we do a remodel ( the inspectors are starting to figure out that they should know what is new)

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mike1950 (Feb 26, 2022)

1974 house here. Added in 97 - all permitted- added dining room and total kitchen redo in 2005 and 2007 added entry. All permitted. I drew all these plans. There are no electrical drawn plans. This varies state to state.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mr. Peet (Feb 26, 2022)

Tom Smart said:


> Like most fuse boxes I've seen the labeling on the door rarely matches reality. Not sure having plans would be any help.





Tom Smart said:


> Thanks everyone for the help. Frank @2feathers Creative Making and Kyle @JerseyHighlander asked for pictures.
> 
> The original box was installed in ‘95 when the house was new.
> 
> ...


Tom,

You posted a picture of an electrical breaker box, *not* a fuse box. The grey box has some Square D breakers. So that answers one of my questions, and eliminates Federal Pacific issue from the equation as well. You have a plethora of mini's. Wonder if you did a 'total draw' calculation if you would be over.

I've held "breaker parties" in the past. You have the owners invite a certain number of friends and family over for an outdoor evening BBQ or campfire. Each attendee is asked to bring a nightlight or other item that lights when plugged in. Everyone is asked to spread throughout the structure (basement and attic) with every circuit in use. Two persons remain outside to confirm exterior outlets and lighting. Breaker 1 is shut off and every electrical outlet and other source that goes off is recorded. With cell phones today, no one is left in the dark. The process is repeated for every breaker until every outlet, light and appliance is documented to a particular breaker(s). Once done, each breaker is turned back on, one at a time with a few seconds between each activation. Then the participants are taken outside for entertainment.

The information can later be used to create a check sheet, taped inside the breaker box. Use a painters tape and tape just the top, so the list can be lifted to read the official labeling on the door. You can often buy or download templates to mount over the original labeling to relabel with better professionalism. As codes tighten, this works for remodeling and rentals, super important for rentals as Air B&B have multiplied.

Your generator sub-panel would fail here, being no cover protecting the breakers from dust and water spray. Reach out to Generac, think they offer a clear plastic cover now.

@Gdurfey

Reactions: Like 1 | Thank You! 1 | Informative 1


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## Tom Smart (Feb 26, 2022)

Mark, thanks. A breaker party, with copious amounts of beer - sounds great!

To update, I went back to turn each circuit off in succession and leave it off as suggested. Well, one of the unmarked ones I thought went to the generator cut over was the culprit. I was sure I flipped it more than once before, but I guess not. So the mystery is now solved.

The rest of the project hasn’t gone smoothly either. The old fixture had a larger footprint so I had to touch up the paint and of course it’s not a great match. Now have to paint the ceiling (eventually). After wrestling the thing into place, the bell meant to cover the box/hole in the ceiling is smaller than the opening. So I need to try and find a piece that will cover those 2 sins until full painting.

A bit of an explanation about why I’m going through this pain. The light I’m putting up is a crystal fixture my parents had in their house. We bought it when we were in Germany, thus the non-US standard sizing, including the light bulbs that require an insert. I guess I could rebuild it but that’s for another day. I just returned from cleaning out their house to put it on the market and I couldn’t leave this and a crystal dining room chandelier we also got them in Germany. So it’s a sentimental thing for us. A PITA, but a sentimental one.

Reactions: Like 1 | Way Cool 1 | Sincere 5


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## Tom Smart (Feb 26, 2022)

Thanks for the guidance everyone. I did learn something about electricity. Electrons are like water, they flow downhill, right?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mr. Peet (Feb 26, 2022)

Tom Smart said:


> Thanks for the guidance everyone. I did learn something about electricity. Electrons are like water, they flow downhill, right?


You* don't allow *any food or drink to those inside. You allow afterward....

As for larger footprint, buy a decorative cover-plate. They come in many sizes and styles. Some are solid, allowing you to cut whatever size hole you need. Tried attaching 2 links below.





__





Amazon.com : ceiling plate for light fixture






www.bing.com









__





decorative ceiling plate for light fixture - Bing - Shopping







www.bing.com

Reactions: Like 2


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## Tom Smart (Feb 26, 2022)

Thanks, Mark, been letting my fingers do the shopping already. Solid might be the way to go.

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## JerseyHighlander (Feb 26, 2022)

Tom Smart said:


> Mark, thanks. A breaker party, with copious amounts of beer - sounds great!
> 
> To update, I went back to turn each circuit off in succession and leave it off as suggested. Well, one of the unmarked ones I thought went to the generator cut over was the culprit. I was sure I flipped it more than once before, but I guess not. So the mystery is now solved.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear you got it worked out. I had a feeling that was going to be the result... Odd that a hallway light of all things isn't on the generator panel.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## JerseyHighlander (Feb 26, 2022)

Mr. Peet said:


> Tom,
> 
> You posted a picture of an electrical breaker box, *not* a fuse box. The grey box has some Square D breakers. So that answers one of my questions, and eliminates Federal Pacific issue from the equation as well. You have a plethora of mini's. Wonder if you did a 'total draw' calculation if you would be over.
> 
> ...


Generator panels especially but really any open faced panel, are UL listed as designed and tested in whatever configuration they are intended to be sold. In this case, without any additional cover, so no reason it should fail any competent inspection. If it had been altered from the way it was manufactured and tested that would be a different thing but many generator panels are exactly that way.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## Mr. Peet (Feb 27, 2022)

JerseyHighlander said:


> Generator panels especially but really any open faced panel, are UL listed as designed and tested in whatever configuration they are intended to be sold. In this case, without any additional cover, so no reason it should fail any competent inspection. If it had been altered from the way it was manufactured and tested that would be a different thing but many generator panels are exactly that way.


Many folks in our area install generators after the house is built. Many of these locations do not require any permitting or inspections on such and owners seem to care less if they already have legal occupancy. If you read the Generac instructions, their breaker box is to be installed in a readily accessible climate controlled area such as a utility room. There is lots of other information as well. In PA and NY, a house can often fail inspection for resale if the generator panel lacks a cover for the breakers. Dust and water are the big claims, exposure to children another. Depending on the location of the box, the chances of waterlines and furnaces being within range can be good, especially if in a utility room. What is legal in one state, often not in another. Case in point, was on a knob and tube installation last year for a historical structure. Still available but not accepted in many circumstances. I like the one I see all the time, Not legal in California or not available in, then lists several states. 

Kyle, I follow your point and understand what you said. However they make plenty of hurdles to trip us in other ways. Not sure about VA, Tom will have to look into that if he wants.


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## Tom Smart (Feb 27, 2022)

When the generator was installed around 08/09 everything passed inspection. The inspector did have to return once because there was an issue, which I have long since forgotten, the required correction.

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## Wildthings (Feb 27, 2022)

Tom Smart said:


> When the generator was installed around 08/09 everything passed inspection. The inspector did have to return once because there was an issue, which I have long since forgotten, the required correction.


Speaking of that Tom. My whole house generator goes in tomorrow after a 10 months wait

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## trc65 (Feb 27, 2022)

Wildthings said:


> Speaking of that Tom. My whole house generator goes in tomorrow after a 10 months wait


That should pretty much guarantee no hurricanes hitting the gulf coast this year!

Reactions: Agree 4 | +Karma 1


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## Tom Smart (Feb 27, 2022)

Wildthings said:


> Speaking of that Tom. My whole house generator goes in tomorrow after a 10 months wait


You are going to love it, Barry. Do you have a natural gas line there or will it be propane? Mine is propane, that’s our fuel for heating, cooking, hot water. 500 gal buried tank.


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## Wildthings (Feb 28, 2022)

Tom Smart said:


> You are going to love it, Barry. Do you have a natural gas line there or will it be propane? Mine is propane, that’s our fuel for heating, cooking, hot water. 500 gal buried tank.


It's in and in service, finally. We have natural gas for fuel

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## Tom Smart (Feb 28, 2022)

Sure has been a long time comin. When did I start poking you about this? How many hurricanes ago?

It’s a good feeling, huh!


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## Wildthings (Feb 28, 2022)

I put the down payment on it last May, but we've "discussed" it since the summer before during the height of hurricane season. Or maybe before that??

Yes it is


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## Tom Smart (Feb 28, 2022)

As far back as Harvey?

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