# Call for consolidated set of SMALL wood samples for chatoyance



## phinds

Hey, all.

In the following three threads, and maybe another or two, I brought up the subject of a new web site on wood chatoyance and subsequently one of the experimenters from that site, Paolo, joined us here on WB and we've been having an interesting discussion of chatoyance.

https://woodbarter.com/threads/excellent-new-web-site-on-chatoyancy.46201/#post-641840

https://woodbarter.com/threads/hi-everyone-from-italy.46225/

https://woodbarter.com/threads/most-chatoyant-wood-species.46249/

And in this thread, Paolo called for samples:

https://woodbarter.com/threads/samples-offcuts.46284/

Since shipping to Italy will be expensive, what I'd like to do is consolidate our collection of small samples for Paolo. Send them to me and I'll ship them on to him after everyone has sent whatever they are going to send.

PLEASE DO NOT send me anything bigger than 6" x 2" OOPS --- it's 7" x 3" x thin and if you can, please use your band saw to resaw down to 1/4" thickness. Paolo has said that size is big enough for him and keeping everything small will keep me from going bankrupt sending them to him. EDIT: sizing has been further clarified as strictly minimum size is 5.2" x 1.48" x .08" and recommended minimum size is 6" x 1.5" x 1/8"

Also, please ID the pieces as specifically as possible. Maybe label with masking tape instead of writing on the samples themselves.

Let's do a list here in this thread so that I don't get too many multiples and we are all clear on what's being collected. Remember, quartersawn and flat cut of the same species will have different chatoyances so consider doing both if you have them.

Thanks,

Paul

P.S. In the other thread, he has suggested in particular:
Red Oak
White Oak
Black Cherry
Hard Maple
Bigleaf Maple
Hickory
Honey Locust
Eastern Red Cedar
Butternut
Redwood
Souther Yellow Pine
White Pine
Pecan
Sassafras

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## Mike1950

I will take care of big leaf. And a couple others.

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## phinds

I've started pulling a few samples myself and was reminded why it is that I haven't used my bandsaw in a while. Need new blade. REALLY screwed up a nice piece of redbud.

Anyway, what I have so far are: (some of these will be somewhat smaller than 7" x 4")

Eastern redbud / Cercis canadensis
morado / Machaerium spp.
black locust / Robinia pseudoacacia
yellowheart / Euxylophora paraensis
chechem / Metopium brownei
padauk / Pterocarpus spp.
prima vera / Roseodendron donnell-smithii
quartersawn American sycamore / Platanus spp.
wenge (might be panga panga; I'll check)
quartersawn red oak / Quercus spp.
white pine / Pinus spp.
approximately quartersawn American mulberry / Morus spp.
American holly / Ilex spp.

I will also pull
hard maple (and possible soft maple)
American black cherry
--- probably others
I have bird's eye maple but it's a pretty crappy piece so it would be good if someone else would do that one.



@Paolo, if you can make any use of pieces only 4cm wide then I have a lot more because I precut a lot of my pieces to 1.5" for use in my bowls.


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## Gonzalodqa

I know for sure I have:
Amburana cearensis 
Redwood
Padouk 
Blue gum
Coigue 
platymiscium sp. (I think it’s platymiscium yucatanum but I have to confirm it) 
I might know of more on Monday


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## chatometry

Thank you very much for this effort Paul! This is really appreciated!

The strictly minimum size is 130*37*2mm; [MODERATOR'S NOTE: this is 5.2" long x 1.48" wide x .08"] the recommended minimum size is 150*38*3mm. [this is 6" long x 1.5" wide x 1/8" thick]
Fibers should be (roughly) along the 150mm direction (endgrain pieces won't work because endgrain does not show typical chatoyance). [MODERATOR: personally, I find his terminology unclear here, so let me be explicit. If you had, for example, a piece with cathedral grain, the V would point in the long direction and if you had quartersawn, the side view of the growth rings - the long striations - would run the length of the piece. See post #7 below]

I want to add that
1) ANY species is useful; 
2) for those very common species such as red oak, having samples from different sources (i.e. different logs and maybe also different geographical areas) would be very helpful, as this will increase the statistical significance of the data.

Thanks again everyone!
Paolo


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## phinds

@Paola, I've added Imperial measurements. We tried metric here in the US and that lasted about 5 minutes (which in metric is still about 5 minutes).

Just to be clear, do the stated sizes also apply to veneer sheets or should they be larger?

Also, just so *I* am clear, you ARE saying that you want pieces that are wider than they are long? Seems backwards to me but you have specified that you want the grain to run along the short length.


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## chatometry

Thanks Paul for the conversion.
No, I want samples that are longer than they are wide, as this example picture. 

Speaking of veneers, a size of 6.5" x 3.5" would be perfect as it would fit two samples with room for trimming. 

Paolo

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## phinds

OK. That makes a lot more sense. The grain runs with the LONG direction, not the short direction.


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## phinds

chatometry said:


> Speaking of veneers, a size of 6.5" x 3.5" would be perfect as it would fit two samples with room for trimming.


OK. I'll put in quite a few veneers. I used to deal in veneers & still have some left. This is what's left:
www.phinds.com/basement_veneer


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## chatometry

Ouch... You DO have some veneers


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## chatometry

PS as a side subject, if anybody is interested in having chatoyance measured on one or more FINISHED samples, as if to compare the effect of different finishes, this can be done too. 

These data will not feed into the main research (chatoyance vs wood species), but they can be useful for everybody's quest for the best finish.


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## phinds

Well, Paolo, you REALLY hit the jackpot. I haven't done any more about collecting solid wood samples from my stash for you but even though my TODO list is longer than the Union Pacific railroad network, I decided to make the time to pull, cut, and label a few veneer samples for you. They're all nominally 7"x5"

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## phinds



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## phinds

There's about 120 of them and I realized as I was sorting these that there are a couple more that I missed.

A few of them are just the same wood multiple times but from different flitches. Several have both flat cut and quartersawn.


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## chatometry

Wooow looks like Christmas!!
Thank you!

Just a couple of questions:
1) when you say "different flitches", do you know whether they come from different logs? (...bought from different sources?) 
This question applies to:
QS american black cherry
Flat cut white oak
Makore
Honduras Mahogany crotch
Aniegre
Sapele
Bubinga
Douglas Fir
Tulipwood Etimoe
Paldao
Birch

2) do you know the exact species for these?
Flaky maple
Flaky oak
African mahogany (khaya?)
Birch
Pine
Poplar (is is Populus or is it Liriodendron)
Lacewood (hard question, I know...)

3) Do you think there may be any export issues related to honduras mahogany?

I will have to do a lot of glueing and sanding :)


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## Arn213

chatometry said:


> 3) Do you think there may be any export issues related to honduras mahogany?


There are about 13 species samples that are “labeled” that are either on Appendix II & Appendix III- YES, restrictions includes veneer.

Any wood that has bark incursions, bark inclusions, ingrown bark, knots, mineral streaks, ghosting trails (bug feces), pin holes, worm holes, spalt lines, rot, live edge could result in the risk of it being “quarantined” by customs at it’s destination. They will give you a choice whether you want to fumigate it (additional cost to recipient) or not which it will get disposed of by customs.

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## chatometry

Thanks.
I was looking at this page:


Current CITES Listings of Tree Species



For Bubinga and the Dalbergia genus it says:
"(All Appendix-II _Dalbergia_ spp. covered by Annotation #15.*)"

"#15 All parts and derivatives are included, except:
...
b) Non-commercial exports of a maximum total weight of 10 kg. per shipment;
..."

So these should be ok... right?
I am not familiar with these restrictions, so I might be reading it wrong...

Paolo


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## Arn213

chatometry said:


> Thanks.
> I was looking at this page:
> 
> 
> Current CITES Listings of Tree Species
> 
> 
> 
> For Bubinga and the Dalbergia genus it says:
> "(All Appendix-II _Dalbergia_ spp. covered by Annotation #15.*)"
> 
> "#15 All parts and derivatives are included, except:
> ...
> b) Non-commercial exports of a maximum total weight of 10 kg. per shipment;
> ..."
> 
> So these should be ok... right?
> I am not familiar with these restrictions, so I might be reading it wrong...
> 
> Paolo



#5 Logs, sawn wood and veneer sheets.



https://cites.org/sites/default/files/eng/com/pc/23/E-PC23-22-02.pdf








Appendices | CITES


Introduction Appendices in pdf format Appendices I, II and III valid from 22 June 2022 Interpretation 1. Species included in these Appendices are




cites.org


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## Gonzalodqa

On my experience I have never had any problem with customs, and I had many cites II including cites I species shipped to me as samples. just label the box as wood samples for study purposes and you’ll be fine. At least in Finland customs has never give me any trouble


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## phinds

chatometry said:


> 1) when you say "different flitches", do you know whether they come from different logs? (...bought from different sources?)


Generally, yes, but for the Douglas fir, the first two pieces are just different cuts from the same flitch.


> 2) do you know the exact species for these?


 Nope, not for any of the 120. Only those that have a single speces, as listed on my site.



> Poplar (is is Populus or is it Liriodendron)


 See my rant on my popular page.



> 3) Do you think there may be any export issues related to honduras mahogany?


 No. I've sent every kind of wood shown to Australia and there has never been a problem. I just put "educational set of dry wood samples with no bark" on the customs form.



> I will have to do a lot of glueing and sanding :)


 Also, some wetting and pressing to get some of them flat before gluing.


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## phinds

Found the last few. Thought I also had some Q.S. pine but did not

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## Gonzalodqa

Hey Paul, those look really good.

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## Gonzalodqa

Paolo, 
I don’t have much to share sadly I traded most of my spare samples but I can send you:
Eucalyptus globulus
Amburana cearensis 
Brya ebenum
Platymiscium yucatanum
Sequoia sempervirens 
Sequoiadendron giganteum

I will check if I have more but so far that is what I have available at around the sizes you require. 
I also have this left over piece of Lignum vitae but it’s mostly sapwood. I will included and you can decide if you want to use it or not 
I will let you know next week if I find more specimens

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## chatometry

Thanks @phinds and @Arn213 and @Gonzalodqa.
I will use that sapwood sample for qualitative tests like this:



(purpleheart 1500-grit sanded).



phinds said:


> Generally, yes, but for the Douglas fir, the first two pieces are just different cuts from the same flitch.


Good news!!! :)

Some of the species you listed are completely new to me (like Albezia or Brya Ebenum)!


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## phinds

chatometry said:


> Thanks @phinds and @Arn213 and @Gonzalodqa.
> Some of the species you listed are completely new to me (like Albezia or Brya Ebenum)!


By "Brya ebenum" I assume you both actually mean "Brya ebenus"

"albezia" is numerous species:

acacia lebbeck
albizia adianthifolia
albizia antunesiana
albizia brevifolia
albizia canescens
albizia caribaea
albizia distachya
albizia ferruginea
albizia forbesii
albizia gummifera
albizia julibrissin
albizia lebbeck
albizia lebbekoides
albizia niopioides
albizia petersiana
albizia procera
albizia schimperana
albizia spp
albizia suluensis
albizia tanganyicensis
albizia versicolor
albizia zimmermannii
albizia zygia
enterolobium saman
falcataria moluccana
pithecellobium saman
samanea saman
serianthes minahassae


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## Gonzalodqa

Hey Paolo, just came to mind. 
if you are looking for some specific species you could check NEHOSOC, this is the Netherlands wood collector society basically.
You can find common species and exotic species in their inventory. Common species cost 2,25 euros and the price goes up depending of the exotics, just as an example, rosewoods cost about 6 euros. For non members you pay 50 cents extra per sample. Ron Metz manages the samples and you can even contact him directly to ask for specific species if they don’t appear in the ordering form.
This could be good if you fail to fond some species that you might be interested it

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## chatometry

Thank you
This is very interesting.
Paolo


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## phinds

There are also individual IWCS members in Europe who sell samples.

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## Gonzalodqa

Yes, Paul is correct. I know two who I have deal before if you want their contact information


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## phinds

Gonzalodqa said:


> Yes, Paul is correct. I know two who I have deal before if you want their contact information


Does that include Dieter in Germany? He's the only one I have contract info for.


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## chatometry

Thanks, these information would be useful.
Paolo


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## Gonzalodqa

phinds said:


> Does that include Dieter in Germany? He's the only one I have contract info for.


Yes Dieter and Henk


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## phinds

Gonzalodqa said:


> Yes Dieter and Henk


Good. You can give him info for both. Please use a PM since It would be rude to post their contract info on an open forum without their prior permission.

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## phinds

Paolo (@chatometry) so far none of the folks who have offered samples have even asked for my address so they could send them to me and I am still behind on getting to the solid samples I pulled for you. I suggest that it might be a good idea if I were to send you just the veneer samples that I illustrated above so you'd have plenty to work on while you are waiting for the solid samples.


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## Gonzalodqa

I will send Paolo the samples directly because I am closer. I will do it probable next week because I am very busy this week

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## chatometry

@phinds thank you, this sounds very good. I am especially curious to see the results on Etimoe, Makore, and the varous Mahoganies.
I will PM my address.

@Gonzalodqa thank you. I will PM my address.
Paolo


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## Lumptastic

I may be a little late to the party and may also be blind but a couple things I have I didn’t see were quilted maple curly maple pacific yew Douglas fur Burl hemlock Burl alder Burl and if I dig around I might still have a bit of pacific yew Burl


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## phinds

Lumptastic said:


> I may be a little late to the party and may also be blind but a couple things I have I didn’t see were quilted maple curly maple pacific yew Douglas fur Burl hemlock Burl alder Burl and if I dig around I might still have a bit of pacific yew Burl


Sounds good. I still haven't received anything from those who said they would contribute so you're not really late after all.


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## chatometry

Thank you @Lumptastic and @phinds.

Let's give it some more time and see if we can arrange a shipment by the end of September.

Paolo

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## phinds

@chatometry --- Well, the "end of September" has come and gone but I DID finally get around to getting a new bandsaw blade for re-sawing and here's what I have for you. A couple of them may be too small and if they're unusable let just toss them. I'll wait a while to see if others want to send me anything and then I'll get you a postage cost.

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## chatometry

Fantastic! That's interesting stuff!
The strictly minimum size required would be 4.7x1.5 inches, any thickness.

Let me mention some people related to this subject:
@Lumptastic who might have various species
@Mike1950 who has bigleaf maple and possibly other species
@David Hill to whom I wrote asking for some Mesquite samples
@Paul Veerkamp who may, or may not, have additional green or "regular" osage

If any of you is willing to support us, would you be able to ship to @phinds within, say, the end of October?
We can pay shipping costs.

Thanks everyone!
Paolo


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## Mike1950

Have to count me out at this time. 91 yr old mother has been having issues. I am way behind everywhere. Sorry.

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## trc65

I could supply some honey locust, black locust and mulberry if those samples would be of interest. If so, I could get those in the mail by Saturday, or Monday at the latest.


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## chatometry

Mike1950 said:


> 91 yr old mother has been having issues.


Sad to hear that. I hope she gets better.




trc65 said:


> I could supply some honey locust, black locust and mulberry


Thank you! All of these are of interest: we see a wide range of values for mulberry (PZC 10.3÷29*) and black locust (PZC 10.4÷23.1), so adding more data would surely help. As for honey locust, we only have one sample, so yes, it is of interest!

*: 29 is a very high value! This is the sample:

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## phinds

trc65 said:


> I could supply some honey locust, black locust and mulberry if those samples would be of interest. If so, I could get those in the mail by Saturday, or Monday at the latest.


I'll PM you my address

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## chatometry

@trc65 the normal size we use is 6x1.75 inches (any bigger pieces will work, as we can cut to size). If you have smaller pieces also 4.7x1.5 inches will work.
Any thickness is fine.
Thanks again!

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## ScoutDog

@chatometry Hi! I can provide the following samples I think are novel to the effort: 

Hickory, Zebra wood, Big Leaf Maple, Juniper, AZ Olive, Box Elder (mild flame)
These are likely duplicates to the effort thus far, but may still be helpful: 

Walnut, Black Walnut, White Oak, Western Cedar, Butternut, Basswood, Yellow Pine
*However*, I can't identify the official species names of any of them. And, some contain *sapwood* and some unusual figure. Is this OK? I can post photos if this would help.
If these are helpful to the cause, I'll prepare and get them in the mail to @phinds by Monday.
Thanks!
--JB


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## chatometry

Thank you @ScoutDog :)

All of these are useful, because we are trying to test as many sources as possible from each species.
The only thing that won't provide good results are endgrain (cross-cut) samples.

Paolo


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## ScoutDog

Thanks, @chatometry Paolo!
I'll get the samples together and shipped to Paul as soon as I can. I'll label them as to what I know about them and enlist Paul's assistance to clarify / correct anything he knows to be a closer ID than what I can tell.
I admire what you're doing, and I'm glad to the part of the effort. 
Also hope you and yours stay well over there! It's not always easy.
--JB


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## chatometry

ScoutDog said:


> I admire what you're doing, and I'm glad to the part of the effort.


Thank you


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## phinds

ScoutDog said:


> Thanks, @chatometry Paolo!
> I'll get the samples together and shipped to Paul as soon as I can. I'll label them as to what I know about them and enlist Paul's assistance to clarify / correct anything he knows to be a closer ID than what I can tell.
> I admire what you're doing, and I'm glad to the part of the effort.
> Also hope you and yours stay well over there! It's not always easy.
> --JB


JB, please make sure your pieces aren't too much above Paolo's requirements, so as to keep the shipping cost to Italy down and so that I don't have to do any re-sawing. Thanks.


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## ScoutDog

Hi Paul: 
Of course! My samples are in a (growing) pile and will be cut to size and sanded this afternoon. Shop time is my reward for making progress on other chores around the house first. :-) 
Please send your address in PM so I can get them to you.
Thanks!

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## 2feathers Creative Making

Ok. I haven't spoken up yet because I mainly have local eastern U.S. hardwoods. However, I am about to drop a sample of white oak to Phinds for his collection so I will try to include a few samples in the 5 to 7 inch x 1.5 to 2 inch width and keep em fairly thin. I have currently piled up a poplar, 
eastern red cedar,
box elder (white), 
black cherry, 
curly bradford pear, 
Apple,
Dogwood,
Sassafras, 
American chestnut (sawed 2 years ago as a blight kill.) Will have no sapwood included,
I may gather an ash and dig back through my shed ( @Nubsnstubs and @Mike Hill can tell you, that will be a chore but it 'may' yield another sample if I dig )
Would grapevine and honeysuckle be of interest?


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## chatometry

Thank you @2feathers Creative Making 

All of those you mentioned in you first list would be very useful as they are common species (in the US), whose data may be of interest to the community.
Grapevine and Honeysuckle would be a first addition for us, so we can test them but we won't be able to provide "typical" value until we get more samples from other sources.

I'd say, dig out the ones that are easy for you to gather and stop there :)
Most of the "local" hardwoods you have are highly exotic here :D

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## 2feathers Creative Making

chatometry said:


> Thank you @2feathers Creative Making
> 
> All of those you mentioned in you first list would be very useful as they are common species (in the US), whose data may be of interest to the community.
> Grapevine and Honeysuckle would be a first addition for us, so we can test them but we won't be able to provide "typical" value until we get more samples from other sources.
> 
> I'd say, dig out the ones that are easy for you to gather and stop there :)
> Most of the "local" hardwoods you have are highly exotic here :D


I am fairly certain most vine types and most woody cacti will have extremely low density and a correlating low chatoyance. All fast growing stuff tends to be low by my personal finds.

I understand about my local being your exotic woods.




Shed number 1



Storage tent



Under porch



Apple and walnut yard pile



ERC yard pile



Wood shed



Back of wood shed



Cause of wood pile...

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## chatometry

Ah ah ah... I am so envious! 
And I understand when you say that digging in the shed is hard work :D


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## Paul Veerkamp

chatometry said:


> Fantastic! That's interesting stuff!
> The strictly minimum size required would be 4.7x1.5 inches, any thickness.
> 
> Let me mention some people related to this subject:
> @Lumptastic who might have various species
> @Mike1950 who has bigleaf maple and possibly other species
> @David Hill to whom I wrote asking for some Mesquite samples
> @Paul Veerkamp who may, or may not, have additional green or "regular" osage
> 
> If any of you is willing to support us, would you be able to ship to @phinds within, say, the end of October?
> We can pay shipping costs.
> 
> Thanks everyone!
> Paolo


How many pieces and how dark green ?? Or various shades like last time ??

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## chatometry

Hi Paul
Yes, please, various shades would be perfect, based on availability and ease of collection...
Thank you!

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## Paul Veerkamp

chatometry said:


> Hi Paul
> Yes, please, various shades would be perfect, based on availability and ease of collection...
> Thank you!


How many ??


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## chatometry

Just one per log, I would say no more than 10.
Thanks again!!!!

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## Paul Veerkamp

chatometry said:


> Just one per log, I would say no more than 10.
> Thanks again!!!!


I will start getting more ready. With the smaller size 1.5” instead of 2” I probably have that now


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## 2feathers Creative Making

@phinds I think I got a.package ready. Will try to send it to town with the wife. Will let you know when they give me.a.tracking.number. tried to label most of it. Anything you or Italy don't want (or need) just pass on to someone short on kindling... or pad out another box with it...

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## 2feathers Creative Making

Will be sending a tracking number in private conversation

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## phinds

Tim's pieces (@trc65) came in today, nicely sized and labeled.

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## chatometry

Thank you @trc65 !
Just to be sure, are the two mulberry samples from two different logs? O are they from the same log?

Paolo


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## trc65

The mulberry is from the same piece of wood. The blank was large enough so I cut a piece from each face for a quarter sawn and flat sawn sample. Didn't know if grain orientation made a difference in your tests, so included both.

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## chatometry

We see (anybody can see) that the rings of pores are not chatoyant, whereas the surrounding dense wood is chatoyant.
With these samples you cut we can compare the local results in the dense area when quartersawn vs when flatsawn! So thank you, this is of interest!

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## phinds

Frank's (@2feathers Creative Making ) pieces just came in. Just over 30 pieces, mostly small and including a nice piece of what I assume is white oak for me and Mark (@Mr. Peet ). I'll get some processing done and post pics but it will take some time.

@chatometry I think when this batch is done I'll be ready to send the whole set to you.

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## 2feathers Creative Making

Oops. After all that discussion, I reckon I still forgot to mark your white oak.


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## chatometry

Thanks @2feathers Creative Making and @phinds - this shipment will be a major improvement for our database. 

I was under the impression that @ScoutDog was also going to send some samples. Are they already with you Paul?

Thanks again everyone, we really appreciate your help.


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## phinds

Preliminary (unprocessed) pieces from Frank:


















Plus a small limb of something that I think is for Mark.

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## phinds

chatometry said:


> I was under the impression that @ScoutDog was also going to send some samples. Are they already with you Paul?


He is going to send some in the next day or two. We've been PM'ing. It will take me a while to process Frank's pieces, since I'll want to get pics for my site, plus a few of them need to be reduced.


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## chatometry

Thank you.
Question for @2feathers Creative Making 
I see 2 pieces of Eastern Red Cedar.
Are they from 2 different logs?
The same question applies to
-apple
-sassafras
-yellowpine
-ash (american white?)
-boxelder
-dogwood

Thanks again
Paolo


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## chatometry

phinds said:


> It will take me a while to process Frank's pieces, since I'll want to get pics for my site, plus a few of them need to be reduced


Take your time, there is no rush. And thanks again!


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## 2feathers Creative Making

chatometry said:


> Thank you.
> Question for @2feathers Creative Making
> I see 2 pieces of Eastern Red Cedar.
> Are they from 2 different logs?
> The same question applies to
> -apple
> -sassafras
> -yellowpine
> -ash (american white?)
> -boxelder
> -dogwood
> 
> Thanks again
> Paolo


They are mostly the same logs. The yellow pine is quartersawn and flatsawn. Several others are attempts to get differing.amounts of sapwood.


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## chatometry

Ok, thank you. This is useful information!
Paolo


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## 2feathers Creative Making

phinds said:


> Preliminary (unprocessed) pieces from Frank:
> 
> View attachment 217996
> 
> View attachment 217997
> 
> View attachment 217998
> 
> View attachment 217999
> 
> 
> Plus a small limb of something that I think is for Mark.


The "unknown there is american chestnut for other samples if what I sent isn't suitable. The larger samples like the apple are in case the other isn't workable. If it is , then no need to send a second as all are basically from matching logs. Unless quartersawn and flat SAWN samples are presented. 
And yes the question mark can be removed from the first small apple blank.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## phinds

2feathers Creative Making said:


> The "unknown there is american chestnut for other samples if what I sent isn't suitable. The larger samples like the apple are in case the other isn't workable. If it is , then no need to send a second as all are basically from matching logs. Unless quartersawn and flat SAWN samples are presented.
> And yes the question mark can be removed from the first small apple blank.


This is all good Frank. The larger pieces will give me cutoffs for my sample box.

Reactions: Way Cool 1


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## phinds

By the way, Frank, thanks for the sanding pads. I'll get good use out of those. Have you used that brand a lot? They look to be very good quality and with a heavier backing than the Klingspor that I normally use.


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## 2feathers Creative Making

I use them for most of my stuff. They are harbor freight. Or the cheapest stuff at lowes. I don't do a terrible amount of sanding. I am mostly stuck building and repairing other people's houses.


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## phinds

2feathers Creative Making said:


> I use them for most of my stuff. They are harbor freight. Or the cheapest stuff at lowes.


Son of a gun. They appear to be higher quality than that. I guess the difference is that they won't have much longevity. Anyway, I'll still get good use out of them. I do a LOT of sanding.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Paul Veerkamp

chatometry said:


> Thank you @2feathers Creative Making
> 
> All of those you mentioned in you first list would be very useful as they are common species (in the US), whose data may be of interest to the community.
> Grapevine and Honeysuckle would be a first addition for us, so we can test them but we won't be able to provide "typical" value until we get more samples from other sources.
> 
> I'd say, dig out the ones that are easy for you to gather and stop there :)
> Most of the "local" hardwoods you have are highly exotic here :D


I can get muscadine samples if you want some. It is a wild grape if you didn’t know. Old vines get about 5” diameter in my area.


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## 2feathers Creative Making

By the way. The stick is wild Grapevine. There is no Honeysuckle as it was still green and wet.


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## phinds

2feathers Creative Making said:


> By the way. The stick is wild Grapevine. There is no Honeysuckle as it was still green and wet.


Thanks. I wondered what that was. Is it for Mark or Paolo?


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## 2feathers Creative Making

phinds said:


> Thanks. I wondered what that was. Is it for Mark or Paolo?


If there is enough both. I originally offered it to Paolo


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## chatometry

I am happy to leave it for Mark; I am already happy with all the other things you gathered :)
(That is, unless you think grapevine is exceptionally chatoyant...)


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## chatometry

Paul Veerkamp said:


> I can get muscadine samples if you want some. It is a wild grape if you didn’t know. Old vines get about 5” diameter in my area.


Thank you Paul.
Is it used in woodworking?


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## 2feathers Creative Making

chatometry said:


> I am happy to leave it for Mark; I am already happy with all the other things you gathered :)
> (That is, unless you think grapevine is exceptionally chatoyant...)


Not chatoyant very much except perhaps in a knot. I would guess it would be runner up to Wenge but I haven't used wenge.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## phinds

chatometry said:


> Thank you Paul.
> Is it used in woodworking?


I've never heard of it but maybe the other Paul know (since you addressed your question to him anyway --- I'm just butting in).

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## chatometry

Paul Veerkamp said:


> I can get muscadine samples if you want some.


To reply to your question, thanks for offering, but I'd rather focus on more "common" stuff, which may be of more use to the community.
Thank you, anyway :)

Reactions: Like 2


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## phinds

@chatometry, JB's samples are now on the way to me so we're getting close to getting you another box of stuff.

Reactions: Thank You! 1


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## chatometry

Thank you 
I was just wondering - but not asking as I don't like hurrying people!
Paolo


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## phinds

chatometry said:


> Thank you
> I was just wondering - but not asking as I don't like hurrying people!
> Paolo


Well, it HAS taken us all a bit longer than we originally expected, but that's only because we're all exceptionally lazy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thank You! 1 | Agree 2


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## phinds

OK, @chatometry, JB's samples got here today. The whole lot doesn't begin to take up a full international flat rate box ($105 to Italy) so I'll see if I can find a cheaper way to send.

Reactions: Like 1


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## 2feathers Creative Making

phinds said:


> OK, @chatometry, JB's samples got here today. The whole lot doesn't begin to take up a full international flat rate box ($105 to Italy) so I'll see if I can find a cheaper way to send.


How much more room you got in the international box? Or are we running out of time to get the samples to Italy? Was thinking we might be able to gather a few more samples from members if we aren't out of time. I know we may be stretching the limits of our procrastination at this point.


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## phinds

2feathers Creative Making said:


> How much more room you got in the international box? Or are we running out of time to get the samples to Italy? Was thinking we might be able to gather a few more samples from members if we aren't out of time. I know we may be stretching the limits of our procrastination at this point.


That's entirely up to Paolo. There's a lot of room in the box and I'm always happy to get more samples to photograph for my site, but we HAVE kept Paolo waiting quite a long time. It's up to him.

@chatometry

Reactions: Like 1


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## chatometry

Nice stuff  
I am not in a rush at the moment.
Having said this, I am happy if you ship now; it would be unfair to keep these samples waiting, and we'll prioritize them when they arrive. 
I will PM my address and once you have a shipping quote please let me know :)
Paolo


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## Mr. Peet

phinds said:


> OK, @chatometry, JB's samples got here today. The whole lot doesn't begin to take up a full international flat rate box ($105 to Italy) so I'll see if I can find a cheaper way to send.
> View attachment 218652
> 
> View attachment 218653


Trying not to be negative, but see common names listed. Are any ID'ed to species level?


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## chatometry

@ScoutDog
Thank you!
I see two hickory samples. Would they be from two different logs?
The same question applies to Arizona olive.

Paolo


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## 2feathers Creative Making

@phinds usps has a postal rate list under pe.usps.com . Anything under 28 pounds will come in under that 100 dollar range...

Reactions: Informative 1


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## phinds

Mr. Peet said:


> Trying not to be negative, but see common names listed. Are any ID'ed to species level?


Nope. We're all very common here.


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## ScoutDog

chatometry said:


> @ScoutDog
> Thank you!
> I see two hickory samples. Would they be from two different logs?
> The same question applies to Arizona olive.
> 
> Paolo


Hi Paolo: 
The two Hickory and two Olive samples are from the same logs.
I'm not sure if that is ideal or somehow less desirable for your purposes, but that is where they're from. 
--JB

Reactions: Informative 1


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## phinds

2feathers Creative Making said:


> Was thinking we might be able to gather a few more samples from members if we aren't out of time.





phinds said:


> That's entirely up to Paolo.





chatometry said:


> I am not in a rush at the moment.



Well, guys, normally I'd be fine w/ waiting and getting more samples but I've got house guests coming for Thanksgiving and I want to get this whole collection thing over and done with so I've boxed up what I have and will ship it off to Paolo.

@chatometry I'll get you a shipping cost soon.

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## phinds

box sent, will PM w/ details. Frank was right about the postage. I got it down to $73.80 by not using a flat rate box.

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## chatometry

Shipped on November 23rd, on November 30th the parcel was in Milan. Now we'll see how many days (or weeks) it takes to reach my door - that is, 15 miles from Milan

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mr. Peet

chatometry said:


> Shipped on November 23rd, on November 30th the parcel was in Milan. Now we'll see how many days (or weeks) it takes to reach my door - that is, 15 miles from Milan


I'm going with 4 days.


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## T. Ben

Mr. Peet said:


> I'm going with 4 days.


I’ll take 3.


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## trc65

Going to be more like 9, week from today, or is it already tomorrow there? In which case it might be only 8, I think......

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Gonzalodqa

In going with 3 days usually when I get the notification that a package is in sorting in my city it takes about that long to be delivered


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## chatometry

Allright. 28 days in Italy and still no news. I phoned everybody I could and they said it's a busy time and I just have to wait...
Another 2 days and we will exceed the 2 days per mile!


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## Gonzalodqa

Have you check with customs? Here customs has become more strict with packages outside the eu and you have to declare all of them


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## chatometry

They don't reply to the phone :(
For some reason there is no tracking since it landed in Italy.
I am not worried yet, just annoyed with our post system for the long wait...

Reactions: Like 1


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## chatometry

Still no news :(
I phoned everyone I could and they say that only the sender can try to find the parcel, by phoning the company used for shipping (USPS I guess).
This makes no sense to me, with the parcel probably stuck 15 miles from my place. This is so annoying :(


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## 2feathers Creative Making

chatometry said:


> Still no news :(
> I phoned everyone I could and they say that only the sender can try to find the parcel, by phoning the company used for shipping (USPS I guess).
> This makes no sense to me, with the parcel probably stuck 15 miles from my place. This is so annoying :(


@phinds


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## Jordan Pisowicz

Hey guys, I've been gone for a while and just saw this thread. Paul, you rock man! Paolo, greetings! I'd love to contribute somehow but realize this is an old thread... Been a few years since I been around. Let me know if there's anything in specific you guys have had a hard time finding many samples of and maybe I can locate some in the hoard. Or whatever it may be. I do realize that this correspondence and project (or our end of it, through Paul anyway...) may be concluded. Either way, I love it. 

Jordan 

PS. Sorry if I missed any pertinent information regarding my above text, but didn't have time to read through the whole thread. Just saw it and got excited...

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## phinds

chatometry said:


> Still no news :(
> I phoned everyone I could and they say that only the sender can try to find the parcel, by phoning the company used for shipping (USPS I guess).
> This makes no sense to me, with the parcel probably stuck 15 miles from my place. This is so annoying :(


The USPS won't be able to tell me anything not already shown in the last two shipping updates. This is the last info they have:




So, according to the USPS it is in Italy and I don't think they'll be able to tell me more. The tracking #, as given to you previously in a PM, is *CJ 190 801 739 US*


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## chatometry

phinds said:


> So, according to the USPS it is in Italy and I don't think they'll be able to tell me more


Fully agreed. With the parcel in Italy it is nonsense that Italian postal service asks me to track it from the US...
Last time you shipped tracking kept on showing the same message ("...departed a transfer airport...") until it was delivered, so it is possible that this time they are just being slower... We'll wait.


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## chatometry

Jordan Pisowicz said:


> Let me know if there's anything in specific you guys have had a hard time finding many samples of and maybe I can locate some in the hoard.


Dear Jordan
Thank you very much for kindly offering your help! It is really appreciated.
I will check where we are with typical American hardwoods and softwoods and get back to you, and hopefully I will also receive Paul's parcel which also provides a huge set of sample!
Anyway, thanks!!!

Paolo


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## Arn213

phinds said:


> The USPS won't be able to tell me anything not already shown in the last two shipping updates. This is the last info they have:
> View attachment 221179
> 
> So, according to the USPS it is in Italy and I don't think they'll be able to tell me more. The tracking #, as given to you previously in a PM, is *CJ 190 801 739 US*


Paolo and Paul,

I see that this package is still in limbo and sympathize with this situation. Coincidentally, I shipped a package same service via USPS priority mail international about the same time frame- shipped from the US on Dec. 7th, arrived Dec. 11th in Milan, Italy. Custom clearance on January 26, 2022 & delivery. It only took 4 days transit from US to Milan, Italy- however it sat in Milan for 45 days! What is going on with the Italian Post office? I shipped to many parts of Italy, but this is excessive for expedited air service. I had another luthier asked me to ship to Sicily- I told him, the time frame delay due to your post office service that it might take 2 months for a 6-10 business day expedited shipping via USPS (plus custom clearance). I told him what UPS expedited will cost (see percentage listed below for reference)- he said “OMG”, ship via USPS! He told me and another Italian luthier that their “post office sucks”! That they basically sit on the package for an indefinite amount of time before it goes to Customs Clearance. Usually it is the other way around where the international post office will get it expedited and suddenly it will come at a “screeching halt” to sit awaiting for customs clearance.

Hopefully, your package will be delivered soon.

Arn

*PSA*- shipping USPS is the most efficient and cost effective way to ship parcels internationally. UPS, FedEx or DHL while they can expedite the customs clearance much faster, the cost is astronomical, which is about 163% to 217% more compare to USPS.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## chatometry

Thanks... This brings back some hope.
To be fair, I am more upset about the impossibility to track the parcel (which is due to Italian offices). 
Nevermind, I'll wait!
Thanks again for the message!
Paolo

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## Mr. Peet

I ordered some wood samples from France. They shipped last Thursday, DHL. The estimated delivery is this Thursday. Not holding my breath. Barge mail was not available, this was the next cheapest with insurance...


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## chatometry

Jordan Pisowicz said:


> I'd love to contribute somehow but realize this is an old thread... Been a few years since I been around. Let me know if there's anything in specific you guys have had a hard time finding many samples of and maybe I can locate some in the hoard.



Speaking about north-American wood species, for these relatively common (to my understanding) species we still need samples (which means that we have some, but not enough to provide statistically meaningful data):

Big leaf maple
Butternut
Thuya plicata
Juniperus Virginiana
Hemlock
Hickory
Holly
Honey locust
Apple
Claro walnut
Osage orange
Pecan 
Sassafras 
Redwood
Mesquite

For each of these, it would be awesome (not necessary) to have samples from more than one source (or from the same source but from different logs). 
Any size works as long as it's longer than 5" and wider than 1.5"; any thickness works (including veneers, for which minimum size is 6"x2").
The only samples that do not work are those where the grain runs along thickness (like endgrain cutting boards).

Any help is appreciated!

Paolo


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## Mr. Peet

chatometry said:


> Speaking about north-American wood species, for these relatively common (to my understanding) species we still need samples (which means that we have some, but not enough to provide statistically meaningful data):
> 
> Big leaf maple
> Butternut
> Thuya plicata
> Juniperus Virginiana
> Hemlock
> Hickory
> Holly
> Honey locust
> Apple
> Claro walnut
> Osage orange
> Pecan
> Sassafras
> Redwood
> Mesquite
> 
> For each of these, it would be awesome (not necessary) to have samples from more than one source (or from the same source but from different logs).
> Any size works as long as it's longer than 5" and wider than 1.5"; any thickness works (including veneers, for which minimum size is 6"x2").
> The only samples that do not work are those where the grain runs along thickness (like endgrain cutting boards).
> 
> Any help is appreciated!
> 
> Paolo


How scientific are you going for? If you are using commercial suppliers, some questionability:

Big leaf maple - 2 major species are sold under this name
Butternut - pure butternut is very rare and nearly all that harvested within 50 miles of civilization is hybridized
_Thuya plicata_ - Western red ceder
_Juniperus virginiana_ - Eastern red-ceder
Hemlock - 4 USA species, 2 major Eastern hemlock (excludes Carolina hemlock, _Tsuga caroliniana_) Western Hemlock (excludes Mt. hemlock,_Tsuga mertensiana _)
Hickory - 8 common species, Shell, Shag, Mocker and Pig being more common commercially
Holly - only a few, American holly being the most commercial, _Ilex opaca_
Honey locust - assume _Gleditsia triacanthos_
Apple - only a few species make commercial size (several thousand varieties) going with _Malus _spp.?
Claro walnut
Osage orange
Pecan
Sassafras
Redwood
Mesquite - a few species here as well, Velvet and Honey being most common


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## Mr. Peet

Paolo,

My package arrived last night, 2 days ahead of schedule. Maybe next time it would be best to send to a friend in a neighboring country and drive to their house when it arrives...

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## chatometry

Mr. Peet said:


> My package arrived last night,


Beautiful stuff. I wish it had been delivered to me :D
But anyway yes... I should have asked Paul to ship to Switzerland...




Mr. Peet said:


> How scientific are you going for? If you are using commercial suppliers, some questionability


Thanks for the loads of information.
I guess the only practical way is to neglect all these species sold under the same name.
Here everybody sells "acero" (maple), but nobody ever knows if its acer campestre, acer pseudoplatanus or what else. Same for oak, birch, ...
Plus the woodworker does not know about the exact species he's buying, so I chose to stay generic.
However I am keeping track of the species when I know them, so when we'll have enough data we can check if there's a difference in typical PZC values.

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## Jordan Pisowicz

I work for a tree company climbing and trimming/removing trees in greater Denver. We come across


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## phinds

Jordan Pisowicz said:


> I work for a tree company climbing and trimming/removing trees in greater Denver. We come across


@Jordan Pisowicz I assume you meant to finish that sentence


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## Mr. Peet

phinds said:


> @Jordan Pisowicz I assume you meant to finish that sentence


Damit, think he fell out of the tree?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## phinds

Paolo, I shipped a box on Jan 25th and it was delivered in Thailand on Feb 7th. The Italian postal service has had your box for quite a while now. Any luck finding out what gives?


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## chatometry

I phoned everyone I could and asked in every possible way. I even registered to USPS to access the "USPS tracking plus", willing to pay for this tracking, but apparently it does not work :(
I have no more resources :(
I still believe it could just be late, but I am very upset... Your parcel is in Italy by more than 2 months...


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## phinds

chatometry said:


> I still believe it could just be late, but I am very upset... Your parcel is in Italy by more than 2 months...


What a real shame, after we all went to such effort to get you a really good batch of samples. Major bummer.


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## chatometry

I know. I hate it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Arn213

chatometry said:


> I phoned everyone I could and asked in every possible way. I even registered to USPS to access the "USPS tracking plus", willing to pay for this tracking, but apparently it does not work :(
> I have no more resources :(
> I still believe it could just be late, but I am very upset... Your parcel is in Italy by more than 2 months...



I bit the bullet and went for a 2nd round to ship a package to Italy just recently (Butera, CL; it just landed at Milan in a 4 day span) even though the 1st one I shipped to PG, IT took 50 days for a 6-10 business days Priority Mail International service (I mentioned this on my other posting). It only took 4 business days from NY to Milan, Italy- then it falls apart after that and you kind of guessing whether it fell into the “Twilight Zone”. The issue seems to me at the main hub which is at Milan, IT which states “Delivered to Postal Agent”. There was no tracking movement from that location for 44 days. On the 45th day it finally got some transaction and received a scan in the same day from “Office of Exchange and Customs clearance”. The following day it cleared IT Customs (morning) and moved fast from “processed through office of exchange” (Malpensa Lonatepollozo), arrival at the post office and then delivery. I relieved that painful moment for you so you can get an idea of how the whole experience went for me personally.

I have shipped packages to IT more than 3 dozen times in different regions and this was the first time I have encountered such insane time frame delay. All those other times it went smooth within 2 weeks of arrival. I spoke to a veteran postal clerk several days ago and she knew what European countries who were prompt and had a good track record of international deliveries- UK, France, Germany & Switzerland was on top of the list……..I can confirm the same as those countries by my experience is incredibly efficient and reliable. She did say that possibly because closer to the holidays and due to Covid that the delivery time can lengthen and delays to be expected. The worst in her list for a European country and they get lots of complain is Italy!!!!! Turtle slow and they are not diligent when updating their tracking- they must still do it old school without a digital scanner that syncs it within their system so they have real time progress on the package. She said if you want to ship to Italy and you need to get it there within the 10 business week time frame is to ship to within a neighboring country! Switzerland  was the country she mentioned- Mark mentioned this on his post and you should have Paul ship it there instead and you make a trip to pick it up.

In any case Paolo, the US post office from what I was told and by experience cannot track the status of the package as far as what is going on with it as they are in the mercy at the the other end of the recipient’s post office. Secondly for whatever it is worth, I was told this not once but twice that if you upgrade up to the next shipping service which is “Priority Mail Express International”, delivered 3-5 business days- was told the service gets separated from the rest due to the immediate urgency with the time frame involved, that those packages goes into a FedEx plane. There is actually a money back guarantee for Priority Mail Express International in certain countries (15 countries listed to date; 5 European countries)- oh and Italy is not one of them!!!!! What a surprise.

Please keep us posted and I hope that these precious samples gets delivered to you soon.

Reactions: Like 1


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## chatometry

Dear Arn
Thanks for sharing your experience, which makes me think there is still hope.
The situation is getting worse... I used to buy a lot in the US about 15 years ago, and shipments were faster and cheaper. 
Now everything gets stuck in Lonate Pozzolo :(

Paolo


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## Jordan Pisowicz

Hahaha, my bad didn't mean to hit send on that yet. Been busy lately and so three days later I finally come back to finishing my response to see that it had been sent incomplete. 

Anyway, what I was getting at before I fell out of that tree was that I come across a lot of honey locust. I will go through what I have cut to see if I can find some nice pieces of crotch figure.

Also have a good bit of apple but most of it hasn't been milled yet so maybe I have an excuse to start cutting into the pile. 

And lastly, I have a slew of reclaimed OG redwood fence pickets from half a century or more ago that I'll also dig into. 

I had counted 287 rings on a 2 3/8" piece of scrap! Needed a 10x jewelers loupe in order to do so. Encountering such is truly somethin special. 

But bear with me, as I have a lot going on lately. Ill do my best to gather some nice samples and will report back to you guys as soon as I've got something presentable. Back to sleep for now though... 

PS - Paul & Mark, you guys rock! I truly appreciate and admire the mass of information that you both have shared with those like myself interested and passionate about learning. No small thing. 

- Jordan

Reactions: Like 2 | Thank You! 1


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## chatometry



Reactions: Like 3 | +Karma 1


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## chatometry

@Jordan Pisowicz 
Thank you. A very useful help would be if you could find one small piece from each of 5-10 different honey locust trees!
Redwood would also be interesting, but I would say just one piece, because we don't know whether or not those fence pickets come from the same log.

Redwood is one of the next species in our to-do list!

Thanks again!
Paolo


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## chatometry

chatometry said:


> Shipped on November 23rd, on November 30th the parcel was in Milan. Now we'll see how many days (or weeks) it takes to reach my door - that is, 15 miles from Milan


And the final answer is... 84 days :D
(almost one week per mile!)
Next time feel free to ship fresh cut wood, as it will dry along the way...

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 3


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## phinds

chatometry said:


> And the final answer is... 84 days


I assume that means you finally did get it, yes? YEA !!!


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## Gonzalodqa

Damn that is a looooong time. For the common samples you can check NEHOSOC also in the Netherlands, hopefully that package won’t take 3 months to ship

Reactions: Like 1


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## chatometry

phinds said:


> I assume that means you finally did get it, yes? YEA !!!


Yes :)


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## chatometry

Gonzalodqa said:


> For the common samples you can check NEHOSOC


Yes, in fact you already suggested it and I am already in contact with them, so thank you! :)

Reactions: Like 1


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## chatometry

Just a couple of first results:

Hickory, from @ScoutDog - PZC = 12 (just slightly lower than other samples we collected)



More on https://www.chatometry.com/hickory/

White Oak from @2feathers Creative Making - PZC = 14.8 (higher than other samples we collected)



More on https://www.chatometry.com/oak-white/
Flecks are amazing when fine-sanded and subjected to rotating lighting!

By the way, again thanks to @phinds for supporting the research and for providing many samples.

Paolo

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## chatometry

Here are some more results:

ERC, from @2feathers Creative Making - PZC = 10.6 (similar to other samples we collected)




ERC, from @phinds - PZC = 9.7 (similar to other samples we collected)




Black Walnut, from @ScoutDog - PZC = 18.6 (within the range we found so far)




Black Walnut, from @2feathers Creative Making - PZC = 21.4 (within the range we found so far)




Santos, from @phinds - PZC = 12.3 (within the range we found so far)




Wenge, from @phinds - PZC = 6.4 (even lower than usual)




Meranti, from @phinds - PZC = 25.6 (higher than the range we found so far)




Beech, from @phinds - PZC = 14 (the highest we found so far)




Red Oak, from @phinds - PZC = 11.4 (within the range we found so far)




Mulberry, from @trc65 - PZC = 13.6 (within the range we found so far)

Reactions: EyeCandy! 1 | Way Cool 2


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## chatometry

Black Locust, from @trc65 - PZC = 13.6 (within the range we found so far)




Black Cherry, from @2feathers Creative Making - PZC = 13.5 (the lowest we found so far)




Zebrawood, from @ScoutDog - PZC = 21.9 (within the range we found so far)




Olive, from @ScoutDog - PZC = 12.7 (the highest we found so far, with nice curl)

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## chatometry

A nice Albezia from @phinds whom I trhank again:




A couple of nice ones from various sources (Movingui and Imbuia):







And finally, an impressive piece of acacia (no idea which one) wood flooring:

Reactions: Like 1 | EyeCandy! 1


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## chatometry

Some more results from your samples :)

Butternut, from @phinds 




Osage orange (awesome!) from @2feathers Creative Making 




Honey locust from @trc65 




Then some nice stuff from around the world:
Purple gidgee



Eucalyptus Viminalis




Australian blackwood

Reactions: Like 3 | EyeCandy! 2


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## 2feathers Creative Making

chatometry said:


> Some more results from your samples :)
> 
> Butternut, from @phinds
> View attachment 231470
> 
> Osage orange (awesome!) from @2feathers Creative Making
> View attachment 231469
> 
> Honey locust from @trc65
> View attachment 231468
> 
> Then some nice stuff from around the world:
> Purple gidgeeView attachment 231471
> 
> Eucalyptus Viminalis
> View attachment 231467
> 
> Australian blackwood
> View attachment 231472


To give proper credit, the Osage orange came from @Eric Rorabaugh . This was some left over from a cleaver handle blank I got from him. And yes, it is awesome.




__





Handles for my old 'not a knife'


@Eric Rorabaugh was kind enough to send me a specific piece of fibrous material for a particular named use. Here ya go basic rough outnot a perfect fit to the steel but it was a good fit for my handscratched a line and rubbed with a pencil for visibilitysteel shaper extraordinaire Finished...



woodbarter.com




This is the thread where I used the rest of the Osage orange.


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## chatometry

Nice stuff indeed. I if were to give it a name, I would rather call it "Osage Yellow", but it is a fantastic golden yellow!


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## 2feathers Creative Making

chatometry said:


> Nice stuff indeed. I if were to give it a name, I would rather call it "Osage Yellow", but it is a fantastic golden yellow!


The "orange" is in reference to the fruit not so much the color.


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## phinds

chatometry said:


> Nice stuff indeed. I if were to give it a name, I would rather call it "Osage Yellow", but it is a fantastic golden yellow!


Yes, but it doesn't stay that way, by a long shot.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## vegas urban lumber

chatometry said:


> Some more results from your samples :)
> 
> Butternut, from @phinds
> View attachment 231470
> 
> Osage orange (awesome!) from @2feathers Creative Making
> View attachment 231469
> 
> Honey locust from @trc65
> View attachment 231468
> 
> Then some nice stuff from around the world:
> Purple gidgeeView attachment 231471
> 
> Eucalyptus Viminalis
> View attachment 231467
> 
> Australian blackwood
> View attachment 231472


the Eucalyptus Viminalis, has the same block mottle or beeswing pattern that we have in our blue ghost eucalyptus landscape trees here in las vegas

Reactions: Like 1 | EyeCandy! 3


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## chatometry

Nice... I guess nobody knows why!



2feathers Creative Making said:


> The "orange" is in reference to the fruit not so much the color.


Ah true!



phinds said:


> Yes, but it doesn't stay that way, by a long shot


I saw your page before. Impressive color change!


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## chatometry

Just wanted to show a couple high chatoyance examples from our testing campaign. 
Just to provide a reference, Sapele averages ~21PZC and Koa ~26PZC.




[guess what this is?] - 22 PZC




[guess what this is?] - 26 PZC




[guess what this is?] - 28 PZC




Acacia Melanoxylon - 29 PZC
On this I want to warn @Arn213 - from the 3 samples we gathered it seems that A. Melanoxylon is even more chatoyant than Koa itself! We have more samples coming to double check. Anyway, I agree that Koa's figure is hard to rival.
Paolo

Reactions: Like 1 | EyeCandy! 2 | Way Cool 1


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## Arn213

chatometry said:


> Just wanted to show a couple high chatoyance examples from our testing campaign.
> Just to provide a reference, Sapele averages ~21PZC and Koa ~26PZC.
> 
> View attachment 232073
> [guess what this is?] - 22 PZC
> 
> View attachment 232075
> [guess what this is?] - 26 PZC
> 
> View attachment 232076
> [guess what this is?] - 28 PZC
> 
> View attachment 232074
> Acacia Melanoxylon - 29 PZC
> On this I want to warn @Arn213 - from the 3 samples we gathered it seems that A. Melanoxylon is even more chatoyant than Koa itself! We have more samples coming to double check. Anyway, I agree that Koa's figure is hard to rival.
> Paolo


Paolo- thank you for the test and that is an “eye opener”. The number is so close that a human eye will not be able to decipher the slight number differential- correct? You have to test all kinds of koa that comes from the different islands as the soil, environment and elevation might changed those numbers. I would bet that the type of how it was dry will change the data too- air dry versus kiln dried. Koa grown or affected near volcanic location might also change those numbers.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## vegas urban lumber

any chance that chatoyancy correlates to wood mineral content such as silica? or other chemical variances. or is it strictly a matter of grain orientation, pore size and cell structure?

some mass spectrometer analysis might shed light, pun intended


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## chatometry

Arn213 said:


> The number is so close that a human eye will not be able to decipher the slight number differential- correct?


I think you can definitely tell between a plain 20PZC piece and a plain 25PZC piece; however, figuring makes chatoyance a lot more evident so even a 15PZC curly piece can look more impressive than a 30PZC plain piece. 



Arn213 said:


> You have to test all kinds of koa that comes from the different islands as the soil, environment and elevation might changed those numbers. I would bet that the type of how it was dry will change the data too- air dry versus kiln dried. Koa grown or affected near volcanic location might also change those numbers.


Yes, this would be interesting. 
First we would need to cut a whole tree into samples and see how chatoyance is distributed within the tree, because we found some variation between different places within a log [in other species].
Thanks for the suggestion.



vegas urban lumber said:


> any chance that chatoyancy correlates to wood mineral content such as silica? or other chemical variances. or is it strictly a matter of grain orientation, pore size and cell structure?
> 
> some mass spectrometer analysis might shed light, pun intended


I don't know and - as far as I am aware - science doesn't know. I believe it is related to the microstructure. It would be interesting to know why some species are definitely chatoyant while other definitely not...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nature Man

Arn213 said:


> Paolo- thank you for the test and that is an “eye opener”. The number is so close that a human eye will not be able to decipher the slight number differential- correct? You have to test all kinds of koa that comes from the different islands as the soil, environment and elevation might changed those numbers. I would bet that the type of how it was dry will change the data too- air dry versus kiln dried. Koa grown or affected near volcanic location might also change those numbers.


Kind of reminds me of DNA mapping, and the impact of environment. Chuck

Reactions: Like 1


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## chatometry

chatometry said:


> [guess what this is?]


Hey, nobody tried to guess!


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## 2feathers Creative Making

chatometry said:


> Just wanted to show a couple high chatoyance examples from our testing campaign.
> Just to provide a reference, Sapele averages ~21PZC and Koa ~26PZC.
> 
> View attachment 232073
> [guess what this is?] - 22 PZC
> 
> View attachment 232075
> [guess what this is?] - 26 PZC
> 
> View attachment 232076
> [guess what this is?] - 28 PZC
> 
> View attachment 232074
> Acacia Melanoxylon - 29 PZC
> On this I want to warn @Arn213 - from the 3 samples we gathered it seems that A. Melanoxylon is even more chatoyant than Koa itself! We have more samples coming to double check. Anyway, I agree that Koa's figure is hard to rival.
> Paolo


22pzc butternut
26pzc cherry
28pzc walnut


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## chatometry

Wrong continent! 
The first two are from south east asia, the third is from south America.


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## 2feathers Creative Making

chatometry said:


> Wrong continent!
> The first two are from south east asia, the third is from south America.


Had to use the woods I am familiar with. Since we had the world to pick from... now we reach for the stars! Maybe @Byron Barker would have a better shot at the first 2.


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## chatometry

Well...
PZC 22 is Magnolia Champaca.

PZC 26 is Bintangor (Calophyllum Inophyllum). From what I read it is commonly used in SE asia for boatbuolding, furniture, etc. Did any of you have experience with it?

PZC 28 is Cariniana Pyriformis. Some samples of Cariniana Legalis had much lower values, around 15.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## 2feathers Creative Making

chatometry said:


> Well...
> PZC 22 is Magnolia Champaca.
> 
> PZC 26 is Bintangor (Calophyllum Inophyllum). From what I read it is commonly used in SE asia for boatbuolding, furniture, etc. Did any of you have experience with it?
> 
> PZC 28 is Cariniana Pyriformis. Some samples of Cariniana Legalis had much lower values, around 15.


Oh, well that makes sense.



Never heard of any of them but they sure are shiny!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mr. Peet

chatometry said:


> Well...
> PZC 22 is Magnolia Champaca.
> 
> PZC 26 is Bintangor (Calophyllum Inophyllum). From what I read it is commonly used in SE asia for boatbuolding, furniture, etc. Did any of you have experience with it?
> 
> PZC 28 is Cariniana Pyriformis. Some samples of Cariniana Legalis had much lower values, around 15.


I was thinking Tulip poplar for 22 but had no guesses for the other two. They looked familiar, just did not see the value of spending a lot of time to try figuring them out. If I had time, I might have given a try but doubt with the vast choices to choose from, any chance of it. I have samples of all three, and they look to match.


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## chatometry

I wonder why these species - and I am especially talking about Bintangor - are so difficult to obtain here. In general, Asian species are very hard to get, as opposed to African or South American species which are very common in wood warehouses...


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