# Old bullet in an old Mahogsny



## MarksCaribbeanWoodworks (Feb 9, 2016)

I took a close look at what I thought at first was a nail in a slab of mahogany. But I now think that this is not a nail but a bullet going back in time about 160+ years.

First, this Mahogany is the rare S. Mahogni species which has a slow growth rate of 0.63 cm with a 200+ yr old tree in St Croix measuring 49 inches diameter at breast height. This tree came in at approx. 42 inches in d.b.h

Next the bullet material in the tree is very soft and looks like pure lead.

Third, the metal projectile does not extend in either direction through the slab nor does it appear in the slab just above or below this slab which you would expect from a nail. Especially since this slab measures 1 1/4 thick.

Fourthly, you can see the bullets trajectory as it hit (what was then the outer bark surface) and travels about 1 1/2 inches before ricocheting in a second direction. For some perspective, this projectile is located about 20 inches from the ground in the base of the tree and its trajectory is at a downward angle (approx 15 degree) with its final path going nearly straight down. My marking knife helps some I hope.

The this projectile is located near the heartwood center of three and struck the tree when it was about 10 inches in diameter.

I am definetly not history CSI but I know a little bit about weapons in the mid to later 1800's and this round has a strikingly similar shape to European made rim fired rounds carried by Danish soldiers at the time or even a Winchester round from that time. Just as an example see these
https://www.google.com/search?q=1879+krag+bullet&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=simvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwju7Y3Fh-rKAhXIth4KHd-oDiYQ_AUICCgC#hl=en-us&tbm=isch&q=1870+krag+bullet&imgrc=wyFTqedn17mhVM:

Finally, I did a little amateur math and while not totally scientific I think that given the trajectory, the height from ground level it the projectile, the velocity rate of rounds for time - it looks to me like someone fired this round at game from maybe 50 yards or so out while maybe kneeling.

Oh yea I almost forgot. It looks like as the bullet enetered it took chunks of bark with it into tree which is shown by the off colored contacts decay area

Kinda cool though.

Reactions: Like 1 | Way Cool 14


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## MarksCaribbeanWoodworks (Feb 9, 2016)

My CSI work is totally guess of course so I am always open do different ideas as to what this could be.

But looking at this picture again I can see definitively where the growth ring is (white line running vertical to the bullet) and the fact that the impact of the bullet is directly in line with the growth ring.

Also, in eliminating the nail theory I noted that the last 1" or so from the end of the projectile to the growth ring does not have the grayish stain I have found in the tree where I did find nails. Like the grey stain you see above this projectile, this is from a piece of 7" rebar that had been sharpened and nailed into the tree like a spike. This rebar piece started about 3/4 inch below the surface of the tree and ended about 8 inches from this projectile. This gives you a good picture of how deep this projectile is in the tree and just how much color damage rust will do to the wood fibers. 

Side note here - the rebar stain is still visible with almost 24 inches of trunk left - I am hoping that it does not go all the way through even if it is unique - I personally think the discoloration sucks.

Also, the back of this lead projectile is smooth and not serrated or rusty as I would expect to see from a nail that had either broken off and fallen out of the tree or disintegrated in the tree.

Another bullet that this could be but which would be very rare indeed would be from an original series of Henry Rifles from 1860 - 1866 which shot a 216 grain round which measurements are very close to this projectile +/- 1 mm. Again, very hard to get a absolute accurate idea without removing the round from the tree which I really don't want to do.

I did read about a method though that I might be able to use that requires some basic chemicals from home depot that from what i read will tell me the chemical make up of the lead in the bullet. If I can find time for do this then I understand that it will really narrow down the bullet manufacturer possibilities and will give a much better picture of date and weapon. With that I am going to go the archives here and research the court records - which are still here and written in hand in books that I like something out of a Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings story - they are like 3 feet tall and like 2 feet wide bound by huge hunks of leather and the paper is like super heavy parchment stuff and they still let anyone just go in and finger through these books. Crazy.

BTW - my initial thought about the height from the ground where this bullet is located was incorrect. I forgot about a 3' part of the trunk that I had to separate from the root base which is 2' tall and where the main trunk begins. This bullet is actually located about 5' off the ground.

I can only think of one species of animal walking around St. Thomas 160 years ago that was 5' tall. ----Hmmmmm maybe this is a murder mystery in the works?

Hell - it makes a good story nonetheless.

Reactions: Like 4 | Informative 1


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## ripjack13 (Feb 9, 2016)

Very cool. Are you cutting it out? Maybe frame it?


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## Tony (Feb 9, 2016)

ripjack13 said:


> Very cool. Are you cutting it out? Maybe frame it?



That's one heck of a good idea! Tony

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## barry richardson (Feb 9, 2016)

From a pirate I imagine...

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## MarksCaribbeanWoodworks (Feb 9, 2016)

ripjack13 said:


> Very cool. Are you cutting it out? Maybe frame it?


Yea, I was think about how best to preserve it just as it is - 

Maybe a table top or something 

I saw that trees with bullets in them are what historians call "witness trees" - which is really cool so I would like to incorporate the whole "witness" tree idea in whatever design it comes from.

Reactions: Way Cool 3


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## MarksCaribbeanWoodworks (Feb 9, 2016)

barry richardson said:


> From a pirate I imagine...




Ayeeeee matey - for sure no? Me put it in a frame so that you can see both the front and back because you know - I forgot to take a picture of the treasure map on the back of the slab which certainly explains why the real "Captain Jack" was killed in St. Thomas -  aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaeyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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## ironman123 (Feb 9, 2016)

Very wise deductions Watson, says Sherlock. That is worth preserving.


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## Schroedc (Feb 9, 2016)

Neat that you can date the bullet strike to a fairly specific era. I've found a number of bullets in trees I've milled ranging from 12 Ga. Shotgun slugs to jacketed bullets but nothing as old as what you've got there.


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## David Van Asperen (Feb 9, 2016)

Very interesting. Would the bullet always remain at the same height or possibly move upward with tree growth?
Dave


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## MarksCaribbeanWoodworks (Feb 9, 2016)

David Van Asperen said:


> Very interesting. Would the bullet always remain at the same height or possibly move upward with tree growth?
> Dave



Dave -- that is an awesome question and I really am not sure definitively. But maybe someone one here can help us out.

With that said, I can give you an overview of what I have read from several scientific papers discussing your question to some extent but which dealt specifically with Mahogany. But first, we have to kind of get some housecleaning out of the way - so to speak - and this involves a somewhat dicey area regarding which "mahogany" is the "real" mahogany? 

Ok - so very generally there are 3 species of mahogany which scientists agree is "real" Mahogany - meaning that these species have simliar genetic patterns but are quite different in their grain, color and even bark.

Now, the first true Mahogany was discovered in the Caribbean (Cuba mostly and parts of the Florida keys) in the initial European invasion party back in like 1492. This species is what we now call "Sweet Mahogany" and its scientific name is _S. Mahogani_. This is the Mahogany the Chippendale used to build the furniture used in the English Courts and was the most sought after Mahogany species by furniture makers and woodworkers from like 1500's to ----- well today.

*Warning Side Note Digression Here -- *
But as in all good things, it must come to an end and so went the _S. Mahogani _which has been harvested to the point that it is now listed as an Appendix II species under an international agreement between governments formed in 1973, called the Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species (CRITES). With the Appendix II listing _S. Mahogani _is not "endangered" but it is no longer a wood that can be commercially harvested.

So if you talk to 17th -18th century period furniture makers who will no doubt learn the desperate state of affairs for these folks. As we know, a tree is a mirror image of the environment and weather in which it grew. So a piece of furniture made 250 years ago from _S. Mahogani _will have a unique grain character which can never be truly replicated unless you use _S. Mahogani_ from a tree that is 250 years old. That is why each piece of furniture is like a small snapshot of time capturing all of human history in the grain (at least in a very big picture).

And so the life blood for a period furniture makers is (1) "old growth" mahogany i.e. 200+ years or more; and, (2) that old growth Mahogany will preferably be nothing but _S. Mahogani _from the Caribbean. With out old growth _S. Mahogani_ they can never duplicate the grain patterns and color needed to make true replicas - so their stuff ends up looking like something out of IKEA but real fancy. 

*Back to Staying on Target*
Ok so the _S. Mahogani - _as the first discovered and because of its use in fine furniture making for centuries is often considered the "true" Mahogany. But there are two other types of Mahogany in the Caribbean area: Honduran Mahogany and Mexican Mahogany. I understand that genetic scientists are somewhat in agreement that these two species are really a breed derived from the "True" Mahogany. But the how and why is very much in debate.

So thus far you have:

Real Mahogany = Caribbean, Honduran and Mexican; and
True Mahogany = Caribbean

--- So now add to the above - African Mahogany. This Mahogany, for better or worse, is often considered the ugly step childed of the bunch. This probably has a lot to do with some weird bias of unknown origin and the fact that it was not discovered until 1830 so it really is the "unexpected child" in the litter that "crafts" people just wish they could forget. But there is nothing wrong with this wood if you can accept the color and grain differences from the "Real" Mahogany. And with this one, the genetic scientist agree that it is a Mahogany species, but how it got to where it is, why and on and on is still up for debate.

Just as a side note - the first Mahogany known to have been discovered in the USVI islands was around the mid-1600s when the Danish fell in love with and just couldn't help themselves with their joy that they had to make weird little wooden pointy shoes form the stuff (Just kidding about making shoes from it, but the other parts are all true).

*My general Answer to a Great Specific Question*

Dave? Dave? You still there?

Ok so the general unscientific answer to your great specific scientific question and my answer is limited strictly to what I know of _S. Mahogani. _

Scientist tend to agree, atleast from what I have read, that the _S. Mahogani _has two types of concurrent growth patterns which are affected by many things but mostly soil and weather. These two concurrent growth patterns are: (1) diameter growth (the outward expansion of the trunk); and (2) canopy growth (the tree top reaching up to the sun). While they are interrelated to some extent, they do not occur in the same manner or rate.

The height growth occurs at the upper limits of the tree canopy and (believe it or not) at the root system because when you look at the canopy of a tree like the _S. Mahogani _you must also imagine a mirror image of this canopy under the earth. --- not perfect mirror image but you get the point. So you can just about determine how far how the root system goes in the ground by how far out the canopy goes above your head. Thats why these trees are so damn hurricane proof.

Now the width growth does not rise up farther along the tree and the tree grows higher. Instead as the tree grows higher a new layer of bark is formed over the width of the tree which does supplies nourishment to the new upper growth and adds some more gorgeous wood for us wood chucks mess with.

So think of it like this -- If you drilled hole through a quarter and then drilled it at your eye level to a 25 year old _S. Mahogani _tree and then came back 200 years later with x-ray vision to look through the tree (we don't want to needless hack open the tree to see the quarter, plus this is like 200 years from now and so no doubt we will have x-ray vision) then what you will find is that your quarter is way deep in the tree but has not gone upward to the sky very much if at all. If anything it will probably appear lower to you because after 200 years of leaves, sand, silt and nature, the ground you stood on to nail the quarter to the tree is now about 12" to 18" below where you are standing 200 years later. This depth fluctuates of course depending on where this tree is - in the USVI I have found the earth depth/time rate to be about 10" t0 18" for every 100 years back in time.

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## rocky1 (Feb 9, 2016)

Not doubting your CSI skills just adding to your future analysis methods...

Apply a magnet... If it's ferrous/iron (e.g. _a nail_) the magnet will stick. If it's lead, it won't.

Cool find!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MarksCaribbeanWoodworks (Feb 9, 2016)

rocky1 said:


> Not doubting your CSI skills just adding to your future analysis methods...
> 
> Apply a magnet... If it's ferrous/iron (e.g. _a nail_) the magnet will stick. If it's lead, it won't.
> 
> Cool find!


Great suggestion.


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## MarksCaribbeanWoodworks (Feb 9, 2016)

Schroedc said:


> Neat that you can date the bullet strike to a fairly specific era. I've found a number of bullets in trees I've milled ranging from 12 Ga. Shotgun slugs to jacketed bullets but nothing as old as what you've got there.


Yea it is pretty cool and really only possible because I live on a island with a very limited area and time frame - otherwise it would be impossible.

Another thing that cool that will take some time is that the Danes loved their maps and the more detailed their maps the more they loved them so there are lost of maps in the archives I can comb through. The other cool thing about this maps is the the Danes loved their big trees so they used these trees as boundaries and markers on maps. I would be very surprised is this tree shows up on any map, but I do have an idea of about where it came from.

On map I saw and I will try to find it - was made by Columbus on like his 2nd trip over the water and on this map he marks a tree on the shoreline of St. Thomas in area now called "subbase." He described the tree as towering over everything else in the area. This tree was actually a ceiba tree that was well documented for centuries afterwards and was detailed in an 1820's drawing by some dane guy, but it was estimated to be over 300 feet tall with a base of over 400 feet in diameter. the Banyan has those long drapy roots which were said to reach 50 - 60 feet high. 

This first pic is of a well known Kapok tree on st. john 

The second pic of a well known boabob "ghost" tree from st. john. 

both are large but still small.

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## MarksCaribbeanWoodworks (Feb 9, 2016)

And finally we have these - just not quite this big

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## ironman123 (Feb 9, 2016)

That last one is pretty big.


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## MarksCaribbeanWoodworks (Feb 9, 2016)

Yea we don't get them that big, but here is a huge lignum vitae in the National Park on St. John. I don't turn wood, but I understand that this is nice wood for that.

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## David Van Asperen (Feb 9, 2016)

@MarksCaribbeanWoodworks Thanks for taking the time to educate me on the tree growth patterns . I have often wondered if they grew up from the base.
Now with all this new info I an now wondering if a piece of furniture was made 250 years ago, in order to replicate it would you have to have a tree that is 250 years old plus the age of the tree that produced the lumber for the 250 year old furniture piece? I may be confused


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## MarksCaribbeanWoodworks (Feb 10, 2016)

David Van Asperen said:


> @MarksCaribbeanWoodworks Thanks for taking the time to educate me on the tree growth patterns . I have often wondered if they grew up from the base.
> Now with all this new info I an now wondering if a piece of furniture was made 250 years ago, in order to replicate it would you have to have a tree that is 250 years old plus the age of the tree that produced the lumber for the 250 year old furniture piece? I may be confused



Hey Dave

Another outstanding question and I wish that I had something better to offer than just my general knowledge, but to the best of my ability I will try to give you a good start for your further research. To do that I think we can follow the overall plan of: (A) Defining "Old Growth"; (B) Defining "Second Growth) and then (3) use these definition to demonstrate why old growth is so important to replica furniture.

Coolio bro - lets get to talkin some shop yea>

*Old growth and New Growth Define*d

As an attorney my days are spent "arguing" and "debating" stupid stuff and quite honestly, listening to people --- well lie or in polite company - twisting the truth to fit their own idea of reality. So after a day of that type of nonsense I got to my woodshop because I know that the wood does not tell any lies.

Many people on this site and around the woodworking world have probably forgotten more about the characteristics of wood than I will even know. Still, I think that as woodworkers we owe it ourselves to really know the wood we are using by understanding is qualities, its strengths and its weakness. If gaining this knowledge each piece we make will become better and better over time because we learn to use not only the most beautiful piece in our shop, but more specifically that one piece that creates strength, joins together with precision and gives the project the ability to last generations without break down from wear. Think - ship builders 400 years ago - these folks spent a vast amount of time just selecting the wood for the ship and organizing the roughough hewn wood in a manner that not only fit the ship plans but ensured that the "kings boat" would not go down half-way across ocean because one crappy board was installed - but boy did that board look pretty. 

Ok - so the phrase - "old growth" is really of a "term of art" meaning that its definition can change from tree Species to Species. So just like everyone has ----- uh ummmmm an opinion - we humans have not left the "old" and "new" growth idea out of our opnionholes.

But for me the best definition for Old Growth that I have found is from the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources which defines old growth as follows: "Old-growth forests are natural forests that have developed over a long period of time, generally at least 120 years (DNR definition and consistent with definitions for the eastern United States), without experiencing severe, stand-replacing disturbance--a fire, windstorm, or logging. Old-growth forests may be dominated by species such as sugar maple, white spruce, or white cedar that are capable of reproducing under a shaded canopy. These old-growth forests can persist indefinitely. Old-growth forest may also be dominated by species such as red pine, white pine, or red oak that do not reproduce as well under shade and that require disturbance to open the canopy. These old-growth forests will eventually be replaced by the more shade tolerant tree species in the absence of disturbance." See this link http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/forests/oldgrowth/index.html for a great overview.

To be even more detailed about this Old Growth definition and if you are ever hunting for some good lumber at your local dealer and they say "this ______ is real old growth ______" then you can stun the lumber folks by asking some specifics about the lumber like: (1) what specific sub-species of tree did it come from; (2) geography (topography/latitude/longitude) - what _specific_ region did it come from, (3) how far from the forest was the closest human city (human history), and (4) do they know anything abour any recent regional natural disturbance cycle in the region where the "old growth" lumber came from - i.e. earthquake, fire, tsunami, hurricane, drought.  they will look at you and either kick you out of the lumber yard or just hire you on the spot!!!

To hone the "old growth" blade some more to get a fine bevel edge here think of Old Growth as trees which are generally found in forest ranges (even in parks or a yard as well sometimes) which are essentially undisturbed by human or natural intervention in is life span. Now we can flip the "old growth" blade over and put the following back bevel on our knowledge by understanding that any tree which is not "old growth" will automatically fall into the category of Second Growth (often called "regeneration").

The next question which is jumping up and down just dying to be called upon is: "Can Second Growth become Old Growth?" And ---- survey says --- YES!!!!! ------ 

But when does this amazing transformation occur right? Well that all depends on the species of tree. In a very general concept think of it like this --- lets say that while I am all snuggled and good in my mothers womb she realizes that some day this amazing boy child she is going to have will one day want to make a rocking chair out of old growth walnut, so on the day I am born she plants "Mark's Walnut Rocking Chair Tree" in the front yard. Very sweet of her, but by the time the Walnut tree gets to be "old growth" I will also be old growth - like late 80 or 90 years old. (BTW - average harvesting age for walnut is 30 yrs making it really "second growth" - 90Well I will likely never live to see that tree become old growth because my mom knows , even if you mom planted a hardwood sapling for you when you were born, you would not be able to use it as old growth because by the time it reached the "old growth" stage I would be old growth too!

In other words Second Growth or _regeneration_ stays that way until enough time passes for the effects of the disturbance which originally spun its planting to be no longer evident (even my mom's efforts are scientifically speaking - a disturbance -- sorry mom). Depending on the forest, this may take anywhere from a century to several millennia. Hardwood forests of the eastern United States can develop old-growth characteristics in one or two generations of trees, or 150–500 years. In British Columbia, Canada, old growth is defined as 120 to 140 years of age in the interior of the province where fire is a frequent and natural occurrence. In British Columbia’s coastal rainforests, old growth is defined as trees more than 250 years, with some trees reaching more than 1,000 years of age.

*Old Growth woodworking and Second Growth Woodworking*

Small self-disclosure - I am guilty of all the bad habits, wrong choices, poor cuts, wrong measurements etc that could even be imagined in doing wood working. Hell, I think I invented some of the more egregiously boneheaded mistakes a wood chuck could ever make. And one of the biggest mistakes I have made over and over again is to get sucked into the beauty of a piece of wood, like so mesmerized that I become obsessed with making something out of the one of a kind work of mother nature, that I completely lose focus on whether or not the wood will actually perform like it is supposed to for the project I have in mind.

Maybe I am the only one to have gotten that "look" from my wife when the bed I made four years ago has a headboard that is now at 45 degree angle and has become the ceiling we look up at while the side rails sway into the floor like a broken mule's back - yea well maybe in the first year of marriage telling her "well uhhhh it is pretty though --- right?" would have worked. At this stage in life and after the saw dust I have made - well --- that doesn't really work any more.  (**More self-disclosure I have never had a bed become that, but my first chair did collapse under my father at Thanksgiving one year ---- It was obviously his fault for not sitting in it the way is was made to be sat in.) 

Ok so balancing Aesthetic and Strength is the coup de grace of Old Growth - that is because the key difference between old growth and new growth - specifically Mahogany is the grain pattern and the color depth.

So old growth top-grade tropical American "true" carribbean mahogany is pattern grade, which has a very straight grain without any grain runout. This wood is both incredibly strong and beautiful and perfect for something like the neck of an stringed instrument where an incredible amount of pressure will be placed on the wood for a long time. Old growth Honduran and Mexican Mahagony is going to be very strong straight grain as well. Even African Mahogany - that is old growth - is also very good straight and strong. Just note that all 4 specifies - even old growth of each - will have a different color, different color depth and different grain pattern. See the images below which are not old growth examples. The first is African, the second is Cuban and the third is Honduran. All of these examples are sanded but not sealed

To demonstrate the difference between the "second growth" Cuban, Honduran and African Mahongany from the Old Growth Caribbean Mahogany take a look at the slab under the bowls in the picture here. The slab is old growth Caribbean Mahogany in a rough hewn state - i.e. straight off my chainsaw about 4 weeks ago - no planing, no sanding and no finish - just raw old growth mahogany in all its glory! The bowls are old growth Caribbean Mahogany worked by my father-in-law.

Now take at the close up of finished Mahogany from a piece made by the Master Chippendale and the Chippendal hiboy dresser from mid 1700's. Chippendale used Cuban Old Growth Mahogany - not exclusively - but was by the predominant material in his work. Of course, if I was cooling out with Chippendale today and mentioned "old growth" and "second growth" mahagony he would not understand what I am talking about because while there was certainly "second growth" - i.e. new mahagony following a hurricane or something like that -- everything Chippendal had access to in his day was prime virgin forest wood and so i.e. "old growth."

And you can see that difference between what is "old growth" and what is "second growth" it is literally night and day.

So the old growth stuff does not necessarily have to be from a tree that is the same age as that used by Chippendale, but it must be of an age that qualifies as old growth in the species.

If you see wood that is truly "old growth" quality and if you learn the wood you looking at - you will be able to immediately tell by the color depth and characteristic, the grain tightness and the grain characteristics (both end and surface) whether or not what the lumber yard is selling as "old growth" is really "old growth."

***No knock at the lumber yards and their hardworking folks here because often times they buy the material having been told that it is "old growth" and so they are 99% of the time innocent parties to the deal.

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## barry richardson (Feb 10, 2016)

MarksCaribbeanWoodworks said:


> And finally we have these - just not quite this big
> 
> View attachment 96951


This tree is lignum vitae?


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## MarksCaribbeanWoodworks (Feb 10, 2016)

Here is lignum vitea on island

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## barry richardson (Feb 10, 2016)

You will get plenty of interest here if you mill any of that.....

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## David Van Asperen (Feb 10, 2016)

That is quite interesting. Thanks for taking the time to explain the difference to me. The pictures with the explanation was extra helpful


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## MarksCaribbeanWoodworks (Feb 10, 2016)

barry richardson said:


> You will get plenty of interest here if you mill any of that.....



Well if an old lignum


barry richardson said:


> You will get plenty of interest here if you mill any of that.....



That's good to know 

If one of these old beauties decides its time to lay down and the Spirit brings it my way then cool. If not - that cool too. 

I just let go and let be you know.

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## JohnF (Mar 7, 2016)

That's quite the explanation of new and old growth Mark. I enjoyed the read for sure. It made me remember back about 35 years ago I wanted some long, wide, and clear white pine and couldn't source it here, so called out east to a mill in Maine that advertised in Random Lengths that they cut several million bf a year of white pine. I had to laugh when I asked the salesman if they could get a TL together and he just said to me, "King Georges timber was cut a long f'n time ago."

Reactions: Funny 3


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## MarksCaribbeanWoodworks (Mar 8, 2016)

JohnF said:


> That's quite the explanation of new and old growth Mark. I enjoyed the read for sure. It made me remember back about 35 years ago I wanted some long, wide, and clear white pine and couldn't source it here, so called out east to a mill in Maine that advertised in Random Lengths that they cut several million bf a year of white pine. I had to laugh when I asked the salesman if they could get a TL together and he just said to me, "King Georges timber was cut a long f'n time ago."


Nice that's too funny guess the lumber guy ain't been down south of tropics


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## El Guapo (Mar 8, 2016)

@MarksCaribbeanWoodworks , I have really enjoyed your very thorough descriptions in this thread, and I particularly enjoy your writing style! Thank you for the education!!

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