# question about Chinese tallowtree (Sapium serbiferum)



## phinds (Jan 1, 2019)

Does anyone have experience with this wood? My question is about the heartwood. My own limited experience is that this wood has heartwood that is very little different than the sapwood. It's all a light tan an is quite prone to some kind of stain (mineral stain / blue stain / whatever) that makes it an ugly gray.

I find very little info on this wood. None of my first-off go-to source even mention it and the one place I do find it mentioned (Dallwitz and Richter) the statement is in complete agreement with my experience. Some web sites also agree.

BUT ... I see several web pics of bowls claimed to be Chinese tallowtree that clearly have a sharply demarcated heartwood that is dark brown (much darker than the sapwood).

Anyone here know anything about it?


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## Lou Currier (Jan 1, 2019)

I have a whole bunch of it it there is no difference between the heart wood and the sap wood. I found that when I put a finish on it that it got really dark. Can get some pictures later.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Tony (Jan 1, 2019)

I have a Tallow but it's still in the ground. At some point I'll work it.


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## Tclem (Jan 1, 2019)

We call them popcorn tree. I have a picture of a bowl I turned. I’ll look for it. I pulled this piece out of a stack of trees I cut down. It had stated spalting.


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## Tclem (Jan 1, 2019)

I can take more pictures of the bowl when I get home

Reactions: Like 1 | EyeCandy! 1


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## phinds (Jan 1, 2019)

Lou Currier said:


> I have a whole bunch of it it there is no difference between the heart wood and the sap wood. I found that when I put a finish on it that it got really dark. Can get some pictures later.


Thanks Lou. I'd appreciate pics.


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## phinds (Jan 1, 2019)

Tclem said:


> I can take more pictures of the bowl when I get home


Thanks Tony. More pics not necessary. Your pics agree w/ the bowl pics I've found on the internet but I'm still puzzled. Lou and I have an entirely different experience from you. How was your bowl wood identified as Chinese tallowtree? I'm wondering if there's a vendor out there who has his woods mixed up, OR if I'm mixed up.

I agree, by the way, that "popcorn tree" refers to the same wood.

By the way, your pic does not appear to include any sapwood, just white rot spalting. What does the sapwood look like on your wood?

Reactions: Great Post 1


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## Tclem (Jan 1, 2019)

We Have these all over the place. Grow like weeks and espically on fence rows. 
Even playing war against others since we were kids. And still do sometimes. Lol 
I turned this bowls 4-5 years ago and just remember stacking it all in a pile to burn and then grabbing a piece and turning it. Never got back to the pile to get anymore before it became rotten. Pretty quickly
Not sure if sap or heartwood. The trees were only 10-12” in diameter


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## Tclem (Jan 1, 2019)

I


phinds said:


> Thanks Tony. More pics not necessary. Your pics agree w/ the bowl pics I've found on the internet but I'm still puzzled. Lou and I have an entirely different experience from you. How was your bowl wood identified as Chinese tallowtree? I'm wondering if there's a vendor out there who has his woods mixed up, OR if I'm mixed up.
> 
> I agree, by the way, that "popcorn tree" refers to the same wood.
> 
> By the way, your pic does not appear to include any sapwood, just white rot spalting. What does the sapwood look like on your wood?


 I cut these down myself


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## phinds (Jan 1, 2019)

Thanks for the additional info.

Reactions: Like 1


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## phinds (Jan 1, 2019)

Another question Tony. Do you recall if the wood got a lot darker when you finished it, the way Lou talks about? Maybe that's the difference between the bland raw wood and the darker bowls but I'm very doubtful about that. Hard to imagine any clear finish making wood that much darker.


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## Wildthings (Jan 1, 2019)

They grow here as an invasive species...taking over any vacate lot. Always referred to them as Chinaberry trees


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## phinds (Jan 1, 2019)

Wildthings said:


> They grow here as an invasive species...taking over any vacate lot. Always referred to them as Chinaberry trees


According to my database "chinaberry" refers to a different species, but that database has errors and this could be one of them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tclem (Jan 1, 2019)

phinds said:


> Another question Tony. Do you recall if the wood got a lot darker when you finished it, the way Lou talks about? Maybe that's the difference between the bland raw wood and the darker bowls but I'm very doubtful about that. Hard to imagine any clear finish making wood that much darker.


This is one of my first bowls. All my finishes were wax. 100% of that. No oil or anything on this bowl.


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## Tclem (Jan 1, 2019)

Wildthings said:


> They grow here as an invasive species...taking over any vacate lot. Always referred to them as Chinaberry trees


What we call chinaberry in Mississippi is different. It’s a smaller softer ball that grows in clusters and different colors as compared to the all green and hard balls that has singles or smaller clusters.


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## Lou Currier (Jan 1, 2019)

@phinds this the tallow bowl I did.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Lou Currier (Jan 1, 2019)

Tclem said:


> What we call chinaberry in Mississippi is different. It’s a smaller softer ball that grows in clusters and different colors as compared to the all green and hard balls that has singles or smaller clusters.



Chinaberry is different than Tallow.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Tclem (Jan 1, 2019)

Lou Currier said:


> Chinaberry is different than Tallow.


Right. The tallow we call a popcorn tree. Dove love to hang out in them and they grow everywhere. Roots run all over. At my old house I had them lining the drive way.


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## phinds (Jan 1, 2019)

Lou Currier said:


> @phinds this the tallow bowl I did.


So this started off a lot lighter in color before you put a finish on it?


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## Wildthings (Jan 1, 2019)

Tclem said:


> View attachment 157992
> 
> 
> We Have these all over the place. Grow like weeks and espically on fence rows.
> Even playing war against others since we were kids.


Yep I know the two different trees a Chinaberry and a Chinese Tallow. We call the Tallows around here Chinaberry trees. Hard green seed pods that hurt like hell when sent to the back of your head with a slingshot. They turn dark and split open and play heck on bare feet. 

The real China Berry trees have seed pods that are bigger and yellowish green

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tony (Jan 1, 2019)

Wildthings said:


> Yep I know the two different trees a Chinaberry and a Chinese Tallow. We call the Tallows around here Chinaberry trees. Hard green seed pods that hurt like hell when sent to the back of your head with a slingshot. They turn dark and split open and play heck on bare feet.
> 
> The real China Berry trees have seed pods that are bigger and yellowish green



Barry, have you ever eaten the China berry seed? We have trees down here that we've always called Chinese Plum trees that give off a fruit that sounds like what you're describing. You split open the pod and eat the meat that around the seeds. Tasty stuff.


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## Lou Currier (Jan 1, 2019)

phinds said:


> So this started off a lot lighter in color before you put a finish on it?



Yes


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## rocky1 (Jan 1, 2019)

Tony said:


> Barry, have you ever eaten the China berry seed? We have trees down here that we've always called Chinese Plum trees that give off a fruit that sounds like what you're describing. You split open the pod and eat the meat that around the seeds. Tasty stuff.



I believe you're in the wrong Asian country their bud. Should be Japanese Plum aka LoQuat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loquat

@FLQuacker - Has a piece of Tallow that has a very dark extremely dense heartwood, and some truly interesting spalting Paul. Big tree however, piece I got from him, and I have no clue how far up the trunk it was found, would have been 12"+ in diameter.

Small one we cut down at the office was as you stated, no real noticeable difference in heartwood, small dark pith. I sealed a piece with bark on and it all turned gray.

However, if you go to images and google Spalted Chinese Tallow you'll come up with a wide assortment of Tallow pieces. Some exhibit the traits seen in Lou and Tony's pieces, some are clear and white, some exhibit the dark heartwood.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Tony (Jan 1, 2019)

You're right Rocky, that's what I am talking about. Never knew the proper name for them, good to know that, thanks.


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## rocky1 (Jan 1, 2019)

I'd like to have about 20 acres of them! They bloom all winter here, when nothing else is blooming, the bees absolutely love them. Wrap every one of them they can find up. Picked up all the seed under the ones at the shop last spring, and before the wife figured out how she wanted to go about starting them they spoiled. The woman has 2 lemon trees from seed out a Wally World lemon, 2 -3 Avocado trees out of Wally World avocados, couple orange trees started out of seed from Wally World oranges. Hell she's even got 2 -3 pineapples growing in the back yard from Wally World pineapples! I know she can grow loquats!

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Tony (Jan 1, 2019)

I can send you a bunch of seeds when they come out if you want.


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## rocky1 (Jan 1, 2019)

No... we've got 2 -3 pretty good sized trees at the shop; I had picked up over 300 seed last year. That's the biggest reason she dropped the ball on it, she was trying to figure out how to start all of that. They finally decided on filling a little kiddy pool full of potting soil, start them all in there and repot into small peat pots after they sprouted, rather than buying that many peat pots and trying to start them all separately. 

Nursery stock is grafted so that it's male and female; if you try to start any, you need both to pollinate. They claim they don't bear from seed for that reason, but I figured with 300 of them in the field it really shouldn't matter if they were asexual!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Echoashtoreth (Jan 2, 2019)

Wildthings said:


> They grow here as an invasive species...taking over any vacate lot. Always referred to them as Chinaberry trees


Chinaberry is actually something different - we also have in the area (found one recently by the river) but not nearly as common - they tend to be more common further in east tx more forested areas.... while tallow just spreads like weeds...


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## Wildthings (Jan 2, 2019)

Tony said:


> Barry, have you ever eaten the China berry seed? We have trees down here that we've always called Chinese Plum trees that give off a fruit that sounds like what you're describing. You split open the pod and eat the meat that around the seeds. Tasty stuff.





rocky1 said:


> I believe you're in the wrong Asian country their bud. Should be Japanese Plum aka LoQuat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loquat



Yep tried the "Chinaberry seeds"(Tallow) when we were kids. They were very bitter. And have eaten Loquat many of times. Never have tried the Chinaberry tree seeds ever, since I never knew there was a different Chinaberry until a few years ago. My BIL has one in his front yard. I understand they're poisonous

This is the Chinaberry Tree that is in my BIL yard

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lou Currier (Jan 2, 2019)

@phinds here are the pictures. The dark areas on the big trunk piece is mold.


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## phinds (Jan 2, 2019)

Thanks for those Lou. Very helpful.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JR Parks (Jan 3, 2019)

rocky1 said:


> I'd like to have about 20 acres of them! They bloom all winter here, when nothing else is blooming, the bees absolutely love them. Wrap every one of them they can find up. Picked up all the seed under the ones at the shop last spring, and before the wife figured out how she wanted to go about starting them they spoiled. The woman has 2 lemon trees from seed out a Wally World lemon, 2 -3 Avocado trees out of Wally World avocados, couple orange trees started out of seed from Wally World oranges. Hell she's even got 2 -3 pineapples growing in the back yard from Wally World pineapples! I know she can grow loquats!


Loquats make great jelly as well

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## rocky1 (Jan 3, 2019)

Yeah I read up on them extensively before crawling around on my hands and knees picking up 300 seed Jim. Even if I only wound up with a couple acres of them, it would be cool. But, in studying them they were talking 5 - 7 years on most nursery stock before bearing fruit, and closer to 10 from seed, if it bore fruit at all. Still want to do it, and try to persuade them to grow faster!

Reactions: Like 2


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## Eric Rorabaugh (Jan 3, 2019)

Never had loquats. Wonder if they would grow in Virginia. Probably need warm weather.


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## rocky1 (Jan 3, 2019)

Iffy... They were supposed to do well up to about Atlanta.


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## Lou Currier (Jan 3, 2019)

Are they different from hiquats?


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## rocky1 (Jan 4, 2019)



Reactions: Funny 2


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## Byron Barker (Jan 6, 2019)

That difference you are seeing is in tannin content I believe. These trees have loads of tannins in them and over the course of time, the tannin deposits become greater and greater in the wood causing more contrast between heart and sapwood. At least that is my theory after researching it myself over the last few weeks. I had a question pop up about it on a bowyers website and realized I was surrounded by it and knew very little about it. Like most trees, the soil content will also play a big part. I've wondered something similar about camphor. There is also a lot of it here and many of my neighbors have been trimming it back the last few years. Some of the trees will have incredibly dark purple-red heart all the way into the branches wood while others have no distinction between heart and sapwood. Could just be genetic differences in trees too.


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## Byron Barker (Jan 6, 2019)

And yes, Chinaberry and tallowwood are very different trees. Not sure how anybody could mix those two up. Chinaberry is pretty too. Related to mahogany.


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## Nubsnstubs (Jan 6, 2019)

rocky1 said:


> I'd like to have about 20 acres of them! They bloom all winter here, when nothing else is blooming, the bees absolutely love them. Wrap every one of them they can find up. Picked up all the seed under the ones at the shop last spring, and before the wife figured out how she wanted to go about starting them they spoiled. The woman has 2 lemon trees from seed out a *Wally World *lemon, 2 -3 Avocado trees out of* Wally World *avocados, couple orange trees started out of seed from *Wally World *oranges. Hell she's even got 2 -3 pineapples growing in the back yard from *Wally World *pineapples! I know she can grow loquats!


Is that where she found you, Rocky?? Looks like she spends a lot of time there. 

The china Berry trees I grew up around in Louisiana had specks on the berries. The trees here in Tucson also have the specks on the berries. The wood is lightweight, and has very distinct growth rings. Pretty stuff......... Jerry (in Tucson)

Reactions: Funny 1


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## rocky1 (Jan 6, 2019)

Byron Barker said:


> *That difference you are seeing is in tannin content I believe. These trees have loads of tannins in them and over the course of time, the tannin deposits become greater and greater in the wood causing more contrast between heart and sapwood. At least that is my theory after researching it myself over the last few weeks.* I had a question pop up about it on a bowyers website and realized I was surrounded by it and knew very little about it. Like most trees, the soil content will also play a big part. I've wondered something similar about camphor. There is also a lot of it here and many of my neighbors have been trimming it back the last few years. Some of the trees will have incredibly dark purple-red heart all the way into the branches wood while others have no distinction between heart and sapwood. Could just be genetic differences in trees too.



Very distinct possibility... here in Florida, most of the inland waters, run red from Tannic Acid; the exception being spring fed rivers and streams. There however the limestone deposits the state sits upon, neutralize the Tannic acids, so the ground water clears. I asked my father about this the other day, and he suggested it would be related age. That he'd cut several smaller trees and never seen a anything more than what would typically be associated with the pith of the tree. 

Given the substantial differences seen in the woods, I'd give it to multiple contributing factors. Age of the tree and genetics, likely determine how it metabolizes and stores nutrients, kinda like some old folks get fat just lookin at French Fries. Location likewise also plays a role, determining what elements are present for it to metabolize. Wherein the dark Heartwood is not necessarily inherit to the species, but is instead determined by multiple influencing factors.


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## rocky1 (Jan 6, 2019)

The Jerry Guy said:


> The china Berry trees I grew up around in Louisiana had specks on the berries. The trees here in Tucson also have the specks on the berries. The wood is lightweight, and has very distinct growth rings. Pretty stuff......... Jerry (in Tucson)





Specks on the berries, much like those on the Cajuns, are typically attributable to insect bites.


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## Nubsnstubs (Jan 6, 2019)

rocky1 said:


> Specks on the berries, much like those on the Cajuns, are typically attributable to insect bites.



Well, I know for a fact that there a bunch of Cajun Insects, specially skeeters, but the specks on the berries far outnumber insects residing in Cajunland. I suppose those insects are so stupid to realize they are on the same berry acting like a jack hammer trying to find the sweet spot that doesn't exist. ............ Jerry (in Tucson)

Reactions: Funny 1


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## rocky1 (Jan 6, 2019)

Nubsnstubs said:


> Well, I know for a fact that there a bunch of Cajun Insects, specially skeeters, but the specks on the berries far outnumber insects residing in Cajunland.* I suppose those insects are so stupid to realize they are on the same berry acting like a jack hammer trying to find the sweet spot that doesn't exist. *............ Jerry (in Tucson)




Skeeters quit bitin you?


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## Nubsnstubs (Jan 6, 2019)

rocky1 said:


> Skeeters quit bitin you?




Hmmmm, come to think of it, I haven't been bit by any in a long time. Spose the sweet spot got too old............. Jerry

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Tclem (Jan 6, 2019)

I’m on the LouisianaMississippi line. Still get skitter bites. Lol


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## Echoashtoreth (Jan 6, 2019)

Not to get off subject but I bought a couple of pcs of stabilized china berry that had nice color and figure...


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## phinds (Jan 6, 2019)

Echoashtoreth said:


> Not to get off subject but I bought a couple of pcs of stabilized china berry that had nice color and figure...


How about showing pics of them in a new thread?

Reactions: Agree 1


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